Scuba Myths, Tanks In The Sun #2 - Scuba Tech Tips: S11E17
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ย. 2020
- After the first video some viewers questioned the math when doubling the temperature (from 70F to 140F) should double the pressure. Alec explains the simple math why scuba tanks should not "blow" up in the sun.
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This is my kind of tech tip. Personally, I like the math!!! It puts things into perspective.
Totally agree!
Q:"Will my tanks explode in the sun"
A: "NO, because i dive in the UK where we don't have sun"........
;-)
Ha Ha. Best answer ever. I should have included that in the video.
Now thats funny
Temperature Kelvin is still used in modern day field artillery computers and firing tables to correct firing data for air temperature. The reason Kelvin is used, and not some other unit of measure, is because Kelvin temperatures will never be negative anywhere on earth. Early fire direction computers could not handle negative temperature numbers in their computations, and because devices were built to measure in kelvin it is still used today.
Well that is something I didn't know but it does make sense to always have a positive number. Don't want rounds dropping short due to a calculation error.
That's very interesting.
@@Caderic go to 27” and you can see one of the early artillery computers. th-cam.com/video/d_I_4CqZxoI/w-d-xo.html
Sort of like with airplanes 0 degrees is always north no matter which side of the globe you are flying on 180 is south regardless end if your compass in now point at 180 instead of 0. Modern instruments adjust for you and we also have satellites, etc.
@@toriless Except there is no "0". It's 360.
I lost you after the second beer.
So your the one playing the "Alec Peirce Drinking Game". Kevin thinks we should do a video on just that for a laugh.
👍
I was finally able to buy 2 aluminum tanks (Catalina 80s) today to complete my equipment setup. My partner, who does not dive, was concerned about me leaving the tanks in the trunk. We live in Florida and don't have a garage, so the car sits in the sun most of the day.
I showed my partner your video so now I'm allowed to leave the tanks in the trunk. Being an advanced diver, I know that the pressure gas law requires T to be in Kelvin. I'm glad you updated the viewers with this information. Your rule of thumb from the first video is absolutely perfect for explaining the math when you're talking shop on a boat, but this video explains the math for those who like to refer back to the equations. Thanks for all you're wonderful videos.
I appreciate your feedback and that your partner now know tanks in the trunk are safe and you watching TH-cam videos is very important to diving. Thanks for watching and more scuba myths coming.
I had to make the conversion from Farenheit and PSI to celsius and Bar to understand your video ;) Strange place in the world the US, where all units are special :D
Totally agree
I know David that metric is the best but i grew up on imperial and am only half metric. As a Canadian I drive in KM/h, buy in kilograms but my temperature is in Fahrenheit and pressure in PSI. Also over half my viewers are from the USA who have little understanding of the value metric brings us. Thanks for watching anyway David.
Thanks for this Alec. You're the dean of diving!
My pleasure Bill.
Awesome! I’ve always worried about this, thank you for clarifying 😀
Happy to help!
love these tech tips
Glad you like them Max. I love sharing my experiences with every diver.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter thanks for the reply I'm 22 and learning something new every day. you older guys have some of the best tips, advice and wisdom. you remind me of my old flight instructor. y'all are about the same age funny enough.
One thing to keep an eye on, the pressure of a tank at 140 will not be "corrected" until it is cooled down by the water your in. Your computer or dive plan may be affected.
Good point Jacob for other viewers to remember.
This is actually why a shop might fill a tank more. If they know you will be diving in cold conditions. I have seen my tanks drop fro 3100 to 2800 just being in the cold water around here.
@@toriless thats a real cold water dive
Very cleary explained, thanks.
You are welcome!
Thanks well explained. Great explanation on the formula.
You are welcome Steve, appreciate the feedback.
Nicely explained
Thank you so much 🙂
Excellent explanation.
Glad you liked it
You sir are the Yoda of scuba diving. Thanks for the tech tip. :D
Glad to help my young padawan.
Alec, you are really gentle and kind person :)
Thank you sir. Hope you picked up something new.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Except with Kevin! LOL
great stuff!!!
Glad you enjoyed it Sergio.
Great video, thanks! Great tan too!
You are so welcome! Not the best summer Tim.
Cool. I had totally forgotten about Kelvin. Thanks for the reminder.
Any time Rick. Thanks for watching.
Excellent!
Thank you! Cheers!
Hi, thanks for the video, Kelvin is about absolute temperature so we have absolute zero in Celsius is -273 degrees if that's any help.
Great point Pat.
the calculation is OK, when you use the imperial system, it is easier to use the rankine degree( Deg F + 460 = deg R ), the effect is the same but you don't have to make the conversion so the error risk is diminished.
it is a very good topic and in fact the explanation why a rushed tank filling ( even with a cooling bath ) makes that the stabilized pressure is a few hundred PSI below the target pressure.
A good point Jacques for everyone to remember. Thanks for the feedback.
The Empire strikes back :)
For sure so watch my jedi mind tricks.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter imperial measures are one of those tricks for us raised on SI :)
Thanks a lot one more time ...
You're most welcome!
As I said on the last video, if it's hot enough to burst a Scuba tank, the ocean will have boiled dry so you can't dive anyway (apart from everyone being dead and all). And that's 'absolutely' true!
Ha thanks Tim I needed that.
you could have just said doubling temp in *Kelvin double pressure*, but kelvin doesn't start the same 0 or scale (-273 degrees celcius), so double F or degree will NOT double K and therefore not double pressure.... or say 70F = 294K
My point is that many divers only think in terms of F or C. So doubling 70F to 140F is possible but as you know, it will not double the tank pressure. Thanks for the feedback Alain.
The Math is correct and Tanks in the Sun is a thing of normal Scuba from a boat or the beach. In the 90s at least 2 Scuba Diving Shops in NYC, had pictures of car's trunks blown off, next to their filling stations....
If it really was tanks that blew up in the trunk, I would ask if the correct burst disk was used! These scuba myths continue probably because some folks still think the moon landing was fake. Thanks for sharing Manuel.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Buzz Aldrin never landed on the moon claim the same conspiracy nuts who in the next breath say that when he landed he saw aliens.... which of the 2 is it?
I had a burst disc blow when my tank was in a car parked in the sun. It took a while for the noise to stop. I was certified in 1968 and they showed us pictures of a car destroyed by a bursting tank. They also showed pictures of broken cinderblock walls cause by a tank that tumbled off a display table in a dive shop onto the valve. This actually happens sometimes.
When a burst disk releases, they have exhaust 2 ports to vent the tank slowly and prevent the tank spinning around.. A falling tank could crack the tank valve causing instant and uncontrolled air release which can be very dangerous. Broken blocks is possible and flying tanks another danger to persons around. Glad it has never happened to me.
Could have been an old tank and an old burst disk.
This is correct but converting Fahrenheit degrees to degrees Kelvin is a little cumbersome. Kelvin is part of the CGS (mertic) system meaning that easy conversions can be made from Celsius degrees by adding 273.15 to equal degrees Kelvin. In the Imperial (English) system the same calculations can be done using degrees Rankine, which equal Fahrenheit degrees plus 459.67.
Not a smooth conversion but need to show that tanks 'blowing up' in cars is not a daily event!
A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter 100% agree, and well done! Thank you.
Alec, please could you advise me who can service and up-grade my Two (2) Royal Aqua Master regulators. Many thank for your assistance. Sorry to request this by this means but I don’t receive a response from Scuba 2000.
Regards,
James
There is one place I would suggest to service and upgrade a good condition RAM, VintageDoubleHose.com. Below is there website with a video I did when Kevin upgraded his Aqua-Master to todays standards. Contact Bryan to see what he can do during this COVID period.
vintagedoublehose.com/store/#!/Phoenix-First-Stage/c/1964701/offset=0&sort=normal
I can’t believe if they are divers didn’t understand basic gas laws and how the gas reacts to the law ect... If they have a C card for scuba diving then they need to give it back and retake the course all over again lol
As usual you did a great job on the topic for the gas law.
Some divers only retain what they are taught, never expanding their knowledge further through reading, courses or practical diving. Glad to know we are safe from tanks exploding in the trunks of cars.
For folks who favour Fahrenheit over Celsius they could use the Rankin temperature scale. Like Kelvin, it's a temperature scale that starts at absolute 0 but uses Fahrenheit increments (Kelvin uses Celsius increments). Add 460 to Fahrenheit to get Kelvin.
Thanks for sharing that John.
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it
Great video. I never knew this was a concern... been using Kelvin for a long time as I hate the imperial system (I live in the USA). Metric system is clearly superior and I've always defaulted to that. I really want to know what happens at -273' Kelvin =] ALSO, I have a question hopefully you can shed some light on. I still can't get my PADI certification because I take a medication and no one will sign off on the medical form. The medication is used to treat seizures MAINLY, but also used to treat various other symptoms. I am not epileptic or have ever had a seizure. I take it for a suspected TBI (traumatic brain injury) suffered in combat in Iraq that produce a strange sensation. Anyhow, my doctor said he wouldn't sign because he prescribes medicine and knows nothing about DIVING. He wrote a letter to the dive shop explaining I've never had a seizure and am not epileptic, but wouldn't sign the PADI medical form. My primary care doctor also wouldn't sign it because he also doesn't know anything about diving. The medication's ingredients do not change under pressure, nor would any part of the body they affect (the brain). Yet the scuba shop still insists I have the PADI medical form signed. I understand they just don't want an accident to occur at depth on the training dives. However, I can legally AND without anyone signing a release form.... drive down a highway here in South Carolina on the motorcycle wearing flip flops and shorts with NO HELMET on... and that's perfectly fine. HOW do I get over this ridiculous bump in the road preventing me from completing the training? Thanks
-273 Centigrade equals 0 Kelvin, there is no negative temperature in Kelvin. ZERO Kelvin is the minimal temperature available - at that temperature all molecules stop their movement.
@@ElectronicEnglishRu Yep! I messed up... been a long week. I meant to type 0'K.
@@liberty9348 Have a nice weekend!
I think the key problem is doctors who don't know about diving and of course the USA's love of lawyers. First, search for a doctor who knows diving medicie to give you a fair review and explanation of why they won't OK you for diving. Google or ask on www.scubaboard.com for a doctor recommendation near your. Second. call DAN - Divers Alert Network, www.dan.org, if a member and ask for a diving doctor referral.
Last, at the physically impossible-to-reach temperature of zero kelvin, or minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 273.15 degrees Celsius), atoms would stop moving. As such, nothing can be colder than absolute zero on the Kelvin scale. Same temperature as my ex-wifes heart!!! Good luck Liberty.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter LOL! Thanks for the info. I did contact DAN. They gave me a doctor nearby that IS a diver. He said he'd sign it if I stop taking the medication, which I could do... get the cert, then start taking it again... dumb. It's a LIABILITY thing... everyone is just passing the buck and won't sign. There should be a WAIVER that I can sign saying I understand the risks and my family and I won't sue if I end up drowning... Hell, even a person with epilepsy could wear a full face mask (so they don't lose their mouth piece if they have a seizure) and would be fine. So dumb. I'm getting in the water, one way or another. Going to buy the NEMO diving system in the mean time since they won't fill my tanks without a cert. It's not illegal to dive without a cert, but no one will fill your tanks.... dumb.
Another great/interesting video. Can we (you) do the math? At what pressure will the pressure relief let go, and what temp (in C or F) would cause that??
The PRD (Pressure Relief Disk) assembly aka a "burst disk" is designed to burst at pressures well above the tank's working pressure rating -- as much as 40 percent above nominal. For a 3,000 psi aluminum 80, that would be 4,200 psi. To ensure the proper margin of safety, each burst disk must be matched to the working pressure of the tank on which it's installed.
Pressure relief disks are described by their release pressure, not the cylinder service pressure. PRD's are clearly marked with the release pressure in PSI (North America) on the hex head and requires 100-120 in-lb of torque for installation. If the PRD is installed in the scuba valve too tightly it will rupture prematurely, and if installed not tightly enough it will leak.
Hope this helps William.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter You would have instant burns from touching such a hot tank long before it gets anywhere near 4200 PSI. Even at only 140 you can quickly get burned.
I leave in a place where temperature reaches 130F outside, and at least 2 times I left my tanks in the car under the sun. Also, note that we do not use burst discs here. What happened to me twice is that the oring sealing the valve on the tank is melting, or getting so soft that it'll blow, let the gas vent, ant that'll be it: an oring to be replaced... not encouraging anyone to do it, just sharing my experience and lessons learned. I obviously will avoid a 3rd mistake, helium being too valuable for that :)
Scuba tanks without burst discs, that's unusual. Thanks for sharing that story, its new to me.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter As far as I know, burst discs on scuba tanks is an american specificity ... most non-american tanks do not have them, and are considered as a failure point in my diving circle. The metric tanks/valves we use do not have them.
Kelvin is the temperature in celsius, but with the zero point instead of being the point that fresh water freezes it is set to absolute zero (at least what we think absolute zero is). Absolute zero is -273.15 C.
Absolute zero is what we in Canada call a chilly day.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter A day that you might throw on a jacket?
Yep
Can you talk about the sea hawk knife again plz
I want to do more Vintage Scuba after the COVID restrictions are lifted. Will add this to my request list.
If someone managed to double the temperature, the pressure in the cylinder will be the least of their problems.
Oh yeah!
A
Absolute 0 is when particle stop moving 0F is just when water become solid. Completely different.
you mean 0C is when water becomes solid.
Absolute zero is almost as cold as my ex-wifes heart.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter , now that's funny.
they show in jaws when a bullet is shot at a tank it blows up as well as the shark
i saw a show that investigated this and they say its a myth
i guess because the air isn't pure oxygen but 21%
is it more likely to happen with nitrox where the oxygen is at 32% or higher
Ah Jaws and the scuba tank. Had to find some way to kill a giant shark in movie style. Shooting a hole in a scuba tank, with air or 40% O2 will not explode like a bomb. A bullet hole (from a 7.62 or larger) to penetrate an aluminum tank would just spin like crazy as it vents the gas. Google 'shooting scuba tanks with guns' to see this done. I watched a guy shoot a .50 cal Barrett into a 3000 psi aluminum tank and it spun around the ground like mad.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Is there an O2 percent where the tank would explode?
you mentioned overfilling a tank past 3000 is a bad thing.
as a breather i'm happy as a clam at high tide when i see my pressure at 3100
what's the problem
Overfilling a tank is when you approach the maximum pressure of the burst disk (which is below the tanks maximum pressure). So an aluminum tank at 3,000 psi is normal, 3,300, is a little high, 3,500 and more is over filling. Repeated overfilling may shorten the tank life and fail a hydro test (measures tank elasticity). Kevin was in CoCoView Resort in Roatan and they regularly filled tanks between 3,100 and 3,200 psi (when cooled to ambient air temperature). If you like air, who does not, try a bigger tank and drop some lead. You can breath deep, stay as long as others without being the first one up. Thanks for watching.
A steel tank is filled with 200 Bar. its tested on 300 bar, but they are constructed to withstand 600 Bar.. If a tank fails a test, half of it's material must have rusted away. If it fails inside your car, you have neglected and mistreated it for a very long time.
For the great majority of divers, it will not happen. I have seen tanks corroded (inside and out), banged and almost punctured so it does happen. Search youtube and there are probably lots of videos of damaged tanks divers want filled. Thanks for watching Stephan.
I guess this makes you a Gas Giant, get it? Astronomy joke?
Oh the gas giant is Kevin. I'm only a dwarf star! We can do this all day!!!
If it's filled to 3k PSI at the start it looks like it would take 378 degrees before even the burst disc blew at 4750. You could toss a tank in with something baking in an oven at 350 and its still not going to blow. Even the hottest car is freezing compared to that!
Funny how real math makes these myths seem so silly. Thanks for watching Ben.
The olde adage, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind.
I aced physics in college,
so I knew where you were going. 👍🤿🐳🦈
I takes the bang out of those folks scaring divers their tanks will explode.
A