Advanced Technology in Middle-Earth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2024
- Middle-earth is a realm of high fantasy, so there’s lots of magic and Medieval-style technology, but there are hints of more advanced technology as well….
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This reminded me of a section of The Hobbit where he goes on to describe the goblins love of technology. “ It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them”
Indeed! Should have mentioned that….
Quick possibility on the way Saruman speaks at the door. Tolkien would have been aware of the speaking tubes on ships used to communicate between various areas, bridge to engine room for example .
Great video. I think the voice callbox idea would be pretty simple technology. Naval ships having been using speaking tubes since the late 1700s and still today use sound powered phones, which use no electricity, to communicate throughout the ship. I could see Saruman installing that in Isengard.
I thought of speaking tubes too, that would be a very reasonable thing for Saruman to use
Arthur C. Clarke once said “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. This discussion reminds me of the plot in Mark Twain´s "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" where tech is brought back to the middle ages and seen as magic by the locals.
I think this fuzzyness (and sometimes conflict) is there because magic seems to be natively part of Tolkien's universe, but tech (and science) tends to come with people. That said, in Arda magic seems to be associated with the ainur (giving it a spiritual dimension) while tech comes from the makings of imperfect beings. Maybe that's why Tolkien initially envisioned "evil magic" portrayed as tech, so that magic remains as a "sacred" power. It probably became too hard to maintain in the plot as a funamental rule. Only speculation from my side.
May I use this for my homebrew setting, good sire?
The palantir work by quantum entanglement. Feanor was not only a great craftsman but also a theoretical physicist.
So Feanor created the greatest mathematics and physics ever known on Arda?
@@skatemetrix He was just that kind of guy.
@@mikeMakhno Having completed a mathematics degree I can safely that advanced maths consumes all of your brain power- perhaps Feanor should have directed his fiery passion into maths for that would have quelled his impulsive nature.
So far, quantum entanglement can't be used for instant communication.
Entanglement can’t be used as a means of FTL information transfer. This is a common misconception that is furthered by the Enders game books and vague explanations from public science communication.
Thanks for the mention 😁 This was really fun to watch (and gave me a lot of ideas for what to research next!)
I've been giving a lot of thought to the magic/art/craft/technology continuum in recent months but one thing this video made me realize was almost all of my research has been from an 'in-universe' perspective. Now you've got me considering how Tolkien portrayed similar phenomena as more inherent/'magical' or craft-based/'technological' depending on how good or corrupt it is. The Mirror of Galadriel vs the Palantiri and Gandalf's fireworks vs. Saruman's blasting fire are really neat parallels in that way. It ties back to Tolkien's (often-blurred) distinction between power exerted to dominate and power used aesthetically or to 'enhance nature' (all terms used loosely).
For other examples of covert technology, I always thought the "obviously magical" toys that the Dwarves bring to Bilbo's birthday party were more likely advanced craft. (Surely even Bilbo would know better than to put actual magic in the hands of children...?)
And finally I must take exception to your characterization of Feanor as not especially magical. He is VERY magical, and moreover has never done anything wrong, ever 😜
Hey, I said he wasn’t that much more magical in that sense, so I provided caveats. 😜 But yeah, this topic is a very fruitful one because there are multiple axes you can use on which to measure things-tech v magic, art v magic, evil magic v good magic-there’s so much content here and you can dig so deep into all of it.
I think that Feanor made the Palantir the same way he made the Silmarils or the way the Galadrim make Lembas or Elven Cloaks or Elven Rope. If you love what you do and can do it for millennia you can get pretty good at it. The Ainur and to a lesser extent, the elves can literally put their passion into their works. Feanor can evidently fashion crystalline orbs that function as both super telescope and as a communication device. You can see this happen with Gurthang and Turin. Perhaps the malice of the maker of Turin's black sword is a product of it's maker Eol, a bitter angry ass of an elf. Maybe the combination of Turin's pride and Gurthang's malice is why Turin almost always chooses the violent option when conflict arises. I think this sort of Craft is distinguishable by its inability to be replicated. Crafted items might come as a set like the Silmarils, the Palantiri, or the Two Trees but you can't make more as a replacement for what was lost. They are one of a kind made out of effort and passion of a moment of creation that cannot be duplicated as opposed to swords, bombs, and orcs.
he literally put his essence in the simirals
Sandyman's new mill was new technology. And Tolkien didn't like it too much
10:31 While clocks _on mantlepieces_ were invented later than the Middle Ages, larger clocks with in principle similar technology were invented in the Middle Ages and attached to cathedrals, typically.
Antikythera mechanism is pretty complicated and it has been dated 200 bc - 50 bc. Who knows what inventions some ancient people have made, but have not survived to modern times.
@@aumatomos7811 true
I'm glad you mentioned the unusual technological advances in the Shire; I always got the impression that the Shire was essentially a proto-modern society, albeit a thoroughly agrarian one. Basically Tolkien's idealised vision of rural English life if technology stopped advancing in 1800. And just other things about the Shire too that make it feel more modern relative to the rest of Middle Earth, like the fashion and the mention of things like lawyers. Very interesting - if niche - topic.
One of the features of technology is that it is regularly developed off of earlier, more primitive technology. We can see this chain of development of technologies easily by looking at the earlier versions and to some degree predict what is likely to come. Much of what we see in Tolkien does not fit this pattern. There is no mention of earlier, more primitive devices similar to but not as advanced as Fëanor's Palantirs, at least not of which I'm aware.
Your comment exactly reflects my long standing observation of Tolkien's work; a lack of any clear progressive technological development in Arda despite the very evident intellectual/cognitive abilities of its civilisations, language and writing being one of the most prominent of their artifices. I feel this exposes a number of inconsistencies in Tolkien's overall narrative.
The Noldor in Aman appear to have invented weaponry (correct me if I'm wrong) such as swords and virtually the same weapons are in use thousands of years later in Middle-Earth.
Siege-craft and catapults are mentioned but there is no evidence of the development of other technology associated with such craft.
*Tolkien Lore* has already mentioned the apparent existence of mechanical timepieces in the Shire and Saruman's *gunpowder.*
The Númenóreans built Orthanc (and the walls of Minas Anor/Tirith?) out of a seemingly unbreakable/impermeable stone.
Eöl devised galvorn and the Dwarves mined and refined mithril. Yet apart from iron and steel, there is no other metallurgic development in Arda.
The very existence of the wheel throughout Tolkien's writings suggests the focused application of a creative intelligence to overcome a problem or challenge. Why stop at the wheel?
It seems Tolkien had such an aversion to technological development, he created a universe where it had only limited and very specific importance and depended largely on natural or supernatural/spiritual forces to function - e.g. ships powered by sail or by oar; or the Palantíri and of course the Rings of Power.
Nonetheless he made it all hang together coherently which is testament to his immense literary prowess.
@@keyboarddancers7751 I believe it was actually Melkor who first taught the Noldor to make swords and the like as part of his moves to undermine the relationship between the Noldor and the Valar.
If you just start from the beginning of the First Age to the end of the 3rd Age, that is some 7000 years. If you look at where human technological development around 5000BC compared to know, the changes are enormous and over time the rate of change has accelerated enormously. The only "explanation" I have come up with is that something in the Music of the Ainur greatly retarded technological development by altering the way sentient beings thought and/or altering the laws of physics during the time of the mythological proto-Earth the Legendarium encompasses. Since then, Eru made some changes. It's not a particularly satisfying explanation but it's all I've got.
@@keyboarddancers7751 Tolkien "sacrificed" realism for mythology, actually thats the whole point of his writing. In his mythology, technology and knowledge fades with time (makes no sense in real life), but he has a good in world explanation, since the tech and knowledge was so advanced in the first place because the high elves lived among literally gods and directly learned from them and also have seen the power of the light of the two trees. Those who have not seen such power and learned from such gods, would understandbly become lesser people (less knowledge, tech and physicall prowess).
Although Jack Vance came much later, I like that concept of "Vancean magic" where far futuristic technically is almost indistinguishable from magic... It maybe can't be applied to Lord of the rings, but in many cases it can help
I think it would be so cool to have a complementary episode talking about nature in tolkien's writing. I know there's several Scholars that specialize in that but I'm not sure there's any TH-cam channels that discuss it
That’s kinda broad lol. What specifically about nature?
Gandalf used explosives to make the fireworks in the long expected party.
Generally you can track technological and artistic development by the availability of both time and resources. Societies that value work over leisure tend to progress slower than the reverse. And of course the lack of resources slows development.
The Hobbits have both resources and time, not having a societal preference for work over leisure and plenty of resources in the Shire.
Men in Middle Earth have a preference for work and often a lack of resources so they progress slowly.
I bet Tolkien would have found smart phones quite nefarious!
I both love my smart phone & consider it "nefarious". A smart phone that is used to educate & edify in the hands of the wise can be used to suborn the fabric of society in the hands of those with bad intentions.
Great work!
Side note for everyone else, Rumble is much more fair to independant creators than YT, so please consider following your favorite channels there as well.
These folks put out great content, let's try to help them get rewarded for it.
The Shire is basically England in the early 19th Century ("the Jane Austen period") with Hobbits being Midlands people. The clock on the mantlepiece is an example of this. Though the clock is certainly high technology in comparison to the Migration Era or Mediaeval stuff of the rest of the legendarium, it is something which would have been considered just an ordinary object and not particularly modern by Tolkien writing of the Shire, as a place that would feel familiar to the mid-20th Century person.
The line from Gandalf: 'A Palantir is a dangerous TOOL [my CAPITALISATION], Saruman,' I think speaks volumes. A tool is not something you would generally associate with magic, like a magical staff, wand or orb. A tool, like a spanner or screwdriver, is something you would much more readily associate with technology, specifically machinery. Think trains and steam engines. Tolkien was very much a child of the Industrial Revolution and the havoc it brought to the greenery of the natural (Jane Austen style) English countryside. In his youth (e.g., as mentioned in the letters), he was forced to move from a Rivendell type setting (I forget where it was) to the heavily industrialised city of Birmingham, which to some extent becomes the (spoilt) Isengard and Mordor (at least the former). So I think the Palantíri can be seen as technology to some extent, though to my mind he also envisioned them as 'magical' - the two concepts are not dichotomous in his world.
on the concept of a lot, if not most, of tech being tied to evil, even the Palantiri must, all be it subjectively, be considered in such a category. Crafted by Feanor, an individual of immense arrogance and desire for control, it's hard not to see the ability to gather information and make your will known at any distance, to dominate and dictate, not being in Feanor's thoughts to some degree, when he crafted them.
It's not really tech but I always find the inclusion of golf an amusing incongruity. I can imagine The Eriador Open.
It's not from the Middle Earth legendarium, but there is Farmer Giles' anachronistic blunderbuss.
Indeed! Well worth mentioning.
That was a great one! You presented the distinctions very well.
My understanding of the Palantirs were that there was one main or master one controlled by Sauron and the rest were lesser ones that only worked when they or the user faced a certain direction, while the main one could "see" in all directions..
Not quite; check my video on the Palantiri for a full history and explanation of how they work. Warning-it’s an old video lol
Interesting video and topic!
Gandalf tells Pippin that the Palantir can see back in time. He talks about wishing to use it to see “the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor” at work in the blessed realm.
No, he says he would like to try and see if he could do that; he never asserts they are actually capable of that.
What about the lumber mill in the shire and the "upgrade " it gets when sharky takes over. Has a chimney and everything. "Evil progress"
I think you can fit hobbits being the most simple and unambitious people of Middle Earth with them having certain later period items quite neatly- it is precisely because they are not industrial capitalists or great warmongers in need of forges and metalworking that they can devote all the technological ambition they do have towards being tailors and clockmakers.
In one of the unfinished tales concerning Numenor, mention is made of how Sauron made "flying darts" which could be launched from Numenor and strike Valinor, to which Christopher Tolkien suggested these "flying darts" were missiles.
Yes! I had forgotten those.
@@TolkienLorePodcast And with such missiles you would need knowledge of liquid fuels, high explosives and possibly guidance systems. At any rate a lot of high level mathematics, chemistry and physics is required.
Just send the One Ring into Orodruin with a ballistic missile. 😉
@@tominiowa2513 I would like to see the Nazgul stop a ballistic missile!
0:35 Ah, phew, I thought for a moment I might have missed the latest, no, I saw it.
Happy New Year, btw!
i like to think the palantir uses quantum tangling, there were only 7 because he used up all of the materials needed to physically construct a practical quantum device & cast them into a crystal ball.
The Dwarven people seem to employ both in combination, or perhaps all 3 if you are counting artisan skill and craftsmanship as separate from magic and technology.
Off Topic: When Thingol wore a Simarill was he more impressive than Melian the Maia?
I'm always intrigued by the possible parallels, unintended or not, between Morgoth and Sauron and Tolkien himself. Tolkien is trying to make his own loving spinoffs of God's creation, like how Morgoth wanted to do his own riff on the song of the Ainu. The only in-universe constructed language in Middle-earth is Sauron's Black Speech.
The Palantirs seem to resemble antique 'astro-labs' used for navigating sea voyages. They represent divine powers {good} in the right hands [Aragorn], but may be manipulated for earth-borne attachment and desires [Denethor/Saruman/Pippin] twisted into devices of magic [i.e., Rings], which ultimately lead to evil purpose, despair and death.
Ancient Egyptians [translated in pyramid texts] refer to the sun's movement across the sky [day] and through the earth on a path k/a Duat [night] as the 'day boat' and 'night boat' respectively.
You should do a podcast discerning magic from powers of divinity. The power of the elves represent the divine - not earth-borne {material attachment and desires} which denote magic.
Galadriel's mirror is not alone; it is a dot in the matrix of a whole picture, and it is a condensed version of meditation or simple foresight inherent to all people. The context of the mirror is important: After simply relaxing in Lothlorien for almost a month, Frodo and Sam have really just been spinning their wheels and allowing their minds to tread trusted and reliable thought-paths. They never considered exercising new ways of thinking or learning anything. They simply needed to relax and heal.
After they have loosened up their minds and relaxed their bodies, they are now more receptive to Galadriel's suggested education. They employ her methods of meditation, introspection, and foresight like they never have before as simple hobbits. Like most of the book, I think this scene is really just a condensed version of what "really" would have happened. Summing it up to a few paragraphs is just wise storytelling. Even Sam didn't think to learn about ropemaking, or gardening, etc from the elves until just before they left!
If they were already familiar with and trained in the methods and merits of meditation, introspection, and foresight, and they had looked in the mirror the day they arrived in Lothlorien, I really think they would have had a month of proper preparation and foresight instead of spinning their wheels like they did. Perhaps they would have foreseen Boromir's betrayal, or Helm's Deep, or any number of things. With the insights of Frodo and Sam, they could have planned and prepared as an entire group. But they were not ready for Galadriel's mirror at that point.
Saruman had a power in his voice. Not a sound box.
He did indeed have "powers of voice". That was one of Saruman's talents & he may well have just projected his voice to the door. However, I see no harm in speculating that, as a maia of Aule, he used some kind of acoustic device. It's part of the fun, imo.
Galadriel's mirror got notoriously crappy reception.
25:01 Moon runes and the gate of Moria.
"mellon" = gates fling up - have we seen something similar around the block of most cities last decades?
Mostly biometrics, sorry.
@@evenstar1608 and codes at building entrances ....
Galadriel's Mirror reminds me of the first couple quatrains of Nostradamus (I:1, 2):
ESTANT assis de nuict secret estude, Sitting alone at night in secret study,
Seul repose sus la selle d'aerain: It rests solitary on the brass tripod:
Flambe exigue sortant de solitude, A slight flame comes out of the emptiness,
Faict prosperer qui n'est a croire vain. Making successful that which would have been in vain.
La verge en main mise au milieu de BRANCHES, The wand in the hand is placed in the middle of the legs*
De l'onde il moulle & le limbe & le pied: He sprinkles with water both the hem of the garment and its/his foot
Vn peur & voix fremissent par les manches, Fear, a voice runs trembling through the sleeves**
Splendeur divine. Le diuin pres s'assied. Divine splendor; the God sits nearby.
* i.e. of the tripod; ** i.e. of his robe. [translation from Erika Cheetham's book].
I picture Nostradamus with a 3-footed (i.e. on a tripod) bowl filled with water, with 'images' seen in the ripples of the bowl's contents, using a 'verge' or wand, a rod, to sprinkle the 'holy water' from the bowl onto his garment (i.e. a long robe), as if to ritually purify himself so as to be granted the ability to see whatever images might appear in the water. Cheetham's book indicates that Nostradamus acquired his method of divination from a book by the 4th Century neo-Platonist Iamblichus. Cheetham also references the Apollonian prophetesses using the same method at the oracles of Branchus in Classical times.
So, Nostradamus didn't use a crystal ball like some stereotypical gypsy Seer today might do. He seems to imply he used something akin to what Galadriel had, a 'mirror' made of the surface of a water-filled basin, with images from the Future -- of from a possible Future, perhaps -- forming in the ripples of the surface.
One wonders what Tolkien may have thought or felt about the so-called 'prophecies' of Nostradamus, as well as the method by which the latter claimed to have 'seen' into the Future . . .
Theres no way theres not any magic in the Palantir. I agree that its a technological device, but the only thing that I can imagine powering it is elven magic, or at least a portion of Feanor's inherent supernatural power that regular humans would call magic. Theres just no other way. Maybe he couldnt make more than seven because he'd be spreadinghis power too thin. Maybe no one else figured out how to imbue stones with magic power in quite the same way because Feanor was justthat brilliant and awesome.
Certainly Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and other maiar would know the laws of physics to a level beyond what mortal men know-the valar or Eru invented these laws for the world’s creation-set the fine structure constant, strengths of interactions, etc. Feanor for sure knew more physics than any other child of Illuvatar. His “technology” may have seemed “magical” even to other Eldar.
"Lord of the Rings: Game One" for the ZX Spectrum has a camera and also I think a record player. Obviously this is not canon.
The Hobbit implies that the goblins invented or utilized bombs.
So orcs are basically battle droids in early versions. Well, I get it makes sense given what a weak force each of them are individually.
They had door intercoms in the 40s and 50s.
I don't really buy the idea that the palantiri are technological rather than magical. Saying they're technological requires a massive hand wave about how they actually work in terms of physics and how they were made. I'm sure Feanor wasn't making and etching semiconductor wafers and manufacturing long-life batteries. Even if Tolkein didn't intend them to be magical, absent a better explanation from the man himself about how they worked, I can't think of them as anything but magical. Or if not magical, then they work according to some woowoo physics of crystals in Tolkein's universe. Either way, they're mystical.
How does Sauron keep Barad-Dûr standing? He isn't even in possession of his ring.
Is the ring of power the thing keeping it from falling down, or is Sauron just a good architect?
Or is the tower not even that big?
The Ring was used in making the foundation, so like Sauron, the foundation is fine until the Ring is destroyed.
@@TolkienLorePodcastIs the ring only necessary for the foundational architecture of each mega-project?
Did Sauron personally build the part that used the ring, or did he have to let orcs help out with every portion, including the foundation?
If you just need magic for the foundation, how many other gravity-defying towers did he make during the period of time in which he held the one?
I would've been spending all my time making big buildings, treating Middle Earth like minecraft, but this dude is happy with one epic tower? Don't think so.
The foundation was laid with the power of the Ring so it couldn’t be broken, as noted by Elrond who said that after the Last Alliance they weren’t able to destroy the foundations due to the ring surviving. It has nothing to do with defying gravity. The mechanics of how that works are a mystery, but there’s no reason to think Sauron would repeat the process. Why would he?
@@TolkienLorePodcast He probably wouldn't. I'm projecting my feelings onto him. I like big pretty buildings for what they are rather than what they do. I momentarily forgot Sauron was well beyond that mindset, and mostly just wanted to own the planet.
But maybe he would do something similar in the east or south, where a tower far beyond anything nearby could help encourage humans to worship him and pay more in tribute, as well as maintain the loyalty of the humans who get to work in the tower itself.
Imagine seeing a tower bigger than anything your people ever made, knowing it's foundation is invincible, and knowing that an even bigger version of that tower houses the dark lord himself.
Don't know that it would be worth it, but it would send the proper message.
Very interesting video!
If you live in world where magic is real, I don't see it as particularly unlikely that you might incorporate magically enhanced components in the design of technological devices, to a degree that the device would not work without that magic.
In fact, nearly all seemingly magical artefacts in the legendarium seem to fall into that category. Palantiri being one example. Another example are the borrow-blades. Their anti-undead capabilities seem to be a product of combination of human craftsmanship and enchantment. I certainly don't get the impression that you could hack off a random pointy stick off a bush, enchant it and then proceed to stab a nazgul to death with it.
About the Palantiri. Although it is true that anyone can use one, it is obvious that how you use it is very much dependant on the users inner strenght or power. For instance after Denethors death the Minas Ithil stone will only show a burning pair of hands, unless the user is especially strongwilled (powerful). Denethor and Aragorn was able to tear the Palantir free of Saurons stronghold, but Saruman and Pippin was not. That tells me that the stones are more likely magical in nature, as technology works independantly of the users power, but not of their skill. (There is no reason to think that either Denethor og Aragorn was more skilled than Saruman, on the contary). This brings me to another question - how exactly was Sauron able to manipulate Denethor, as it was not by directly controlling his mind. Did he simply let Denethor see the full measure of his forces, or did he 'pull a Potemkin'. Your thoughts ?
The implication seems to be that Sauron controlled or at least influenced what Denethor was able to see and in so doing led him to despair.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Exactly, Denethor sees in the Palantír the black fleet heading toward Minas Tirith, and he despaired. But in the end, the ships ended up being filled with the good guys - something Denethor did not see.
Nah... Let it all remain magical. It's more fun that way.
Is it true that hobbit if fall to the corruption will trn into WW1 level of technology and able to make weapon factory or even diy tank?
he would have most likely read jules verne. do you know where the mechanical dragons and steel airships are mentioned?
Pretty sure it’s Book of Lost Tales volume 2.
@@TolkienLorePodcast thanks!
What about the shiny wrapping that kept the lembas fresh? Aluminum foil?
The dwarves would have learned to make foil out of any malleable enough metal (particularly gold).
@@tominiowa2513 I seem to recall it was described as having a silvery appearance. Perhaps mithril?
I think Tolkien's aversion to technology was an aesthetic one. He hated how natural beauty was replaced by the ugliness of what has become the stereotype of industry. Ironically, the environmental movement has moved beyond this simple aesthetic to a full-blown save-the-planet industry of its own complete with sophisticated algorithms of carbon offsets and battery factories.
I think it was more than that. He was aware of how technology could be used for destruction - the "machine" as he called it could be used for evil things, even if for itself they were "things not necessarily evil, but which, things being as they are, and the nature and motives of the economic masters who provide all the means for their work being as they are, are pretty certain to serve evil ends."
He also once described WWII as "first War of the Machines", explaining that the war left "everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing triumphant: the Machines".
Machinery was more to him than simply something not as beautiful as nature.
@@Lothiril Yes. I do not dispute you. The misuse of technology is a parallel issue, to which Tolkien certainly disapproves. However, he was personally affected by the ruining of his idyllic childhood neighborhood by the ugly appearance of an industrial mill. To him, the setting of life is vital. When that setting is marred by industrial blight, it lessens the human experience. Again, I also believe he stood against treating technology as an end in itself. The obsession of the ring-makers was costly.
Id argue the rings are technology that we just dont necessarily as the initial reader understand. Like if i made a device to assist your minds ability to picture distant locations that seems like a palantir. If you had two such devices the minds using them would likely be able to communicate if they pictured each other.