The History (and Mystique) of Isengard and Orthanc
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2024
- Isengard and the Tower of Orthanc are architecturally and strategically significant, but historically obscure. They’re a perfect showcase of how Tolkien draws us into his world by giving us just a handful of fascinating tidbits but almost no concrete details.
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The Elendilmir was the symbol of Kingship in Arnor, not in Gondor. Gondor had it's own crown
Slip of the tongue, thinking of Isildur being king in Gondor lol.
@@TolkienLorePodcast don't worry about it, man
Another significant point, which deserved at least in a passing sentence: The outer wall or ring of Minas Anor/Tirith is made of the same material as Orthanc.
is it known who built that, or how? Even the Ents could not damage the tower, yet the makers could so manipulate that stone. I have to wonder if it was some kind of singing magic to pull something like that off.
I would guess that standing stones like the ones in the ring wall, regarless of their material, could be lifted by wrapping your branchy arms around them, whereas a tower built with the stones would be too heavy and lack a spot whereon to gain purchase; the lack of any cracks or gaps in its construction was probably implied.
Nice. Another example of less is more. Orthanc seems strange, and even creepy. It's a bit like the Stone of Erech. There's something ominous and unsettling about it and Tolkien leaves out the major details.
I expect the strategic reasoning behind Orthanc and Helm's Deep (which was built about the same time.) was due to the mountains. If it was built before the Fall, then they would have given a strong defense against the Orcs in the Misty mountains and the Men of Dunharrow, protecting the communication lines between the Northern and southern coastal fortresses. (Also, Sauron had attacked through there during the first war of the Rings. I think that was rather important.) Also, the Dunlendings were not ever really friendly.
If done after the fall, it would still give protection to that crucial communication line and against the still present hill men and orcs.
I thought it was interesting that the ents could not demolish the tower.
I always gather the tower was made not of stone, but of a metallic or “metallo-ceramic” material. Or have you ever seen roots destroy a rusty old steel door, or an abandoned piece of fiber glass?
From a perspective of Philology: The tower seems to draw inspiration from multiple historic references. An amalgamation of: {1} a gentleman in the comment section mentioned 17th century royalist Butler's 'Hudibras' poem. (2) Saruman's sorcery-engineered army, the fighting Uruk Hai connote Cromwell's 'New Model Army'. (3) From John Milton's Paradise Loss, BK 4, lns. 540-544, guardian tower of Gabriel; (4) Tower of Silence from Zoroastrian ritual practice of the dead {Gandalf's imprisonment. Mithrandir, Gandalf's alias known to Rohirrim, denotes Mithra, a deity of the Zoroastrian pantheon. {5} The stairway of Isengard resembles the stairway of the Sumerian temple 'The Great Ziggurat of Ur' located in Mesopotamia. The Sumers are the first known 'civilization' of man {written language, organized religion, etc}.
Last time I was this early, I was yet called "Olorin Teh Swag."
In UT, 'The Battles of the Fords of Isen' it is explained that Isengard is a defence of Gondor against attacks from the West, including if they are coordinated by Sauron. The Great Gate opens on the road to the Fords, running west of Isen which is otherwise uncrossable. The bit I like is that Saruman has an entryphone! ('The Hunt for the Ring). Also of note is Saruman's tourist-bait Pillar of the Hand (Mom I wanna see the Wizard's Tower). To air my pet theory this might reference Hudibras (c.1660). "And nigh an ancient obelisk/ Was raised by him [the fake sorcerer Sidrophel], found out by Fisk [a fake antiquarian]". On the pillar are written "Many rare pithy saws concerning / The worth of astrologic learning". Earlier the sorcerer is introduced: "Quoth Ralph, not far from hence doth dwell / A cunning man, hight Sidrophel". 'Cunning man' was a contemporary term for a magician.
Yeah that voice-carrying but is another fascinating detail. Is it magic? Technology? Another good video topic ;)
Good stuff, I suspect one of his inspirations for the tower were the vitrified forts of Scotland. I believe he visited one on Lewis whilst staying on the nearby island of Eigg. Their Nordic connections would surely have fascinated him, plus the fact that in his lifetime, their method of construction was unknown must have appealed to him. Thanks and keep up the good work.
When I was a kid, I seriously wanted to live in my own version of Isengard.
I had never really thought about Orthanc's history (or lack thereof) like this before, so I appreciate you putting your thoughts out on it! Definitely an example of Tolkien leaving a "remote vista" (whether intentionally or simply through running out of time).
I think one of the coolest things is its link to Tolkien's creative process, another example of how he could conjure important plot elements from a single line of Old English poetry, in this case "orthanc enta geweorc" = "the cunning work of giants", used by a poet to describe the abandoned Roman cities.This single phrase gives us not only the mysterious Orthanc but the Ents themselves ("enta" = "of giants", giants being "entas"). He does the same thing elsewhere with a couple of lines from "Crist" that give us Earendil and his eternal heavenly voyaging giving hope to Men. That's a powerful imagination that gives us an idea of how the Inklings may have sparked off each other.
I love your channel so very much. I would like to ask if you could make videos about the Nature of Middle Earth chapter by chapter and put it in a playlist, bcuz to be honest it’s a hard read and difficult to understand. Thank you❤️
That would be a monumental project, and not necessarily interesting to a wide audience. But if you really want that kind of in depth coverage, check out Corey Olson’s series on the book for Mythgard Academy. He’s got 4 or 5 episodes out so far and is planning to go through the whole thing bit by bit.
I guess Isengard became an arboretum under the care of Treebeard.🌲🌳🏞️🌳🌲
I think it's placement suggests it was built during the time of Numenor before the downfall. It makes more sense in the second age protecting the western coast and the lands of the elven allies. Maybe even before the Numenorians came to middle Earth and established large colonies.
I lean to Isengard and Orthanc having been constructed in the SA by Numenor, and probably pretty early. It would have had strategic value to them, presenting a hard northern face of their coastal empire against the Misty Mountains on their west slopes, where there were plenty of orcs who might come raiding. I also think it was built before the shadow falling over Numenor, while elves still visited, but maybe after relations were established with Lindon/Gil-Galad in SA 882, because I'd think it would be the Noldor specifically who helped the Numenoreans create the material of Orthanc. Not saying that men couldn't have come up with it themselves, but we do know that some of the Noldor were masters of materials.
so maybe we'll see its construction in Rings of Power
My headcanon was always that Orthanc was the channel of a volcano and made of some kind of Obsidian. The Numenorians took the mountain around it away.
My understanding of Isengard runs something like this. After a time, Numerous began to colonize the main continent and establish what would eventually be Gondor and Arnor as lesser "frontier outposts". If the lands between Gondor and Arnor were largely pacified by this time, Isengard might have been a lesser fortification to protect the territory behind it from potential threats on the other side of the mountains. The same would have been true of the fortifications at Dunharrow.
We see this theme in the rise and fall of Numenor, Arnor, the decline of Gondor, and how various places associated with each have either risen or declined in prominence. Arnor is sparsely settled and quickly collapses into warring kingdoms who main enemy is Angmar, but who also fight and kill each other. At one time Weathertop is a critical position but is abandoned and ruin before the events of the Hobbit, as are all the ruins seen. Further a great many places seem to retain an evil or unpleasant nature.
So it was with Isengard. Constructed as a lesser fortification toward the edge of Numenorian territory at the height of their power, it existed from the second age and was unremarkable in its day. The shifting of the center of political gravity made Isengard more of a concern, but the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age kept this secondary fortifications from prominence. The destruction of the kingdoms of Arnor led to the proliferation of orcs and beasts that threaten the realm of Gondor, and Isengard becomes a vital structure for the outermost defenses of Gondoran territory. Finally as the population of Gondor falls, Isengard is forced to be abandoned, but rather than merely lose territories for no purpose, Gondor seeks to create allies in territories that we once hers, and gives Rohan to the horselords and Isengard to Saruman. Thus Isengard rises, in all practical purposes to the level of a small realm of its own. Thus through a few hundred years, Saruman builds his forces in an attempt to become a Power.
It should be noted that Treebeard is dismissive of Saruman's attempt at this from Isengard, and even Gandalf ridicules Saruman as being a mere jailer for Sauron, who is a true power. In the history of Middle Earth, Saruman and Isengard would be of interest to the history of Rohan, but not Gondor, Mordor, or even the Shire.
JT: thanks for your thoughts, and you have given this topic some thought. My gut tells me you're wrong, however. I'd guess it (Orthanc) was built early on, perhaps even before the founding of the two kingdoms. According to the appendices (something the new shoooooooowwwwrunnnnnnners don't look at much, apparently), 1500 years elapsed between the time Numenoreans began appearing on the shores of Middle Earth during the Second Age, and the sinking of the island. Orthanc even then would be on the main route between northern settlements in Eriador and the south. Recall, too, that Eregion sits on the west side of the Misty Mountains. JRRT really did think out his geography and history. That's why true fans love this so much.
I don't think it was ever a "lesser" fortification. You don't spend the time, effort, and money on such a feature for a fringe outpost.
There’s a good video for the future: why was Isengard built? Who built it?… Would love to hear your theories.
It's such a good example of Tolkien's world building that he makes locations and objects that have such a deep history. Saruman didn't build a tower to be an evil wizard in; he flattered and complimented his way into one that served his purposes in a way that seemed to receive a burdensome those who had charge of it. It's such a real world notion and suits his treachery. Middle Earth is a lived-in world and we get thr sense thdt it will continue to be lived in after the story ends.
I think Saruman must have had at least a decent number of humans on his side that weren't dunlendings. It's possible that he was given some populated settlements near the tower for farming and service to whoever ruled orthanc at the time. Even if the area was totally depopulated by the dunlending invasion, I can see saruman offering land or just work for the outcasts of Rohan and elsewhere. People like grima. He probably let in People who had enough problems with the place they were leaving that they didn't need much convincing/corrupting to serve saruman instead
We actually know this to be the case as he apparently managed to cross breed orcs and men, and it appears that some of this went into the creation of the Uruk-hai. We see more of these "squit-eyed" men during the scouring of the Shire. Many of these seem to have fought to the death rather than surrender and were some years to purge from the Shire.
My question is this:
Who in their right mind, man or woman would wish to sleep with an Orc?
"...apparently managed to cross breed orca and men..."
I know this is either a typographical or autocorrect error, but the image it brings to mind is amusing (although Ulmo would not have been amused). 🧍♂💘🐳
@@tominiowa2513, autocorrect is a terrible thing. I thought that I had fixed it, but technology will do as it wills. And yes, for all that the image is amusing, the Lord of Waters would not be pleased.
I will correct it, but the happenstance is so amusing I request that you not delete the correction so that others may possibly be amused as well.
This was an excellent video, as all of yours are, I have learned so much over the years - so many dots connected, and I love your format. This talk of Saruman reminds me of something; did you ever speak at all about the apparition that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli see at the edge of their campfire in Fangorn the night before they reunite with Gandalf? It’s never really elaborated on too much. At first I thought it was totally Gandalf, but then a few pages later he debunks that theory himself, claiming it wasn’t him at all.
Their horses also scatter, but Legolas says something along the lines of “last night during all the confusion, I didn’t notice, but looking back, those horses sounded as if they were greeting a friend,” and I believe this is explained as them running into Shadowfax(?)
Treebeard speaks of Saruman walking the woods recently, and we also learn that he went to meet the Uruks that ended up slain by Ëomer. I just don’t understand that scene by the fire, even with all these pieces of information, and I’m not sure if this is something you’ve discussed before.
I don’t think I’ve done a video on it, probably because the answer is suggested by Gimli and confirmed by Gandalf himself so there isn’t much to add lol
Great points! Always nice to hear about the history of famous places and towers of Middle-Earth :)
I seem to remember how Gandalf mentions the Hornburg was made by Númenoreans as well, way back then. Would that be an interesting subject for a new video?
Given all the places that Tolkien came up with, it is not that surprising that not all of them get a lot of backstory. Indeed, if you look at Minas Ithil, arguably one of the most important cities in the story, its history is basically summarized as: Isildur builds it, Sauron takes it at the start of the War of the Last Alliance, it is retaken during the war, it is lost again 2000 years later to the Witch King and it is renamed Minas Morgul, the last king of Gondor dies there, it is demolished at the end of the War of the Ring. That is it. We don't really even get the level of detail that we do for Isengard.
I agree that Tolkien is the master when it comes to hinting about deep history that has been lost in time. Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw come to mind, too. Dol Amroth gets basically the story of Amroth and the tower of Tirith Aear, and that is it.
As for the humans guarding Orthanc, I think they likely would have been Dunlendings. We know that Saruman's spies were able to blend in at Bree, so there is no reason why Gandalf would have seen it in any way amiss. That being said, we do know that he was able to corrupt Grima and presumably other Rohirrim as well, so it would not be impossible that the human gateguards were Rohirrim instead. But I think Dunlendings would make more sense.
I agree that the position doesn't make a huge deal of sense for the Early Third Age. It seems very much like overkill against some Enedwaith / Dunland wild men, and Sauron was thought to have been vanquished for good. However, if it is built around 2000 Second Age, after the War of the Elves and Sauron, it would make perfect sense: Sauron is a big bad in the East, and the Misty Mountains form a natural barrier against further invasions into Eriador (including where most of the elves live and Numenorean shipbuilding around Gwathlo), save for the Gap of Rohan, which now gets protected by Angrenost (Isengard).
That was the first thought that came to me as well; it was a fortress built after the War of the Elves and Sauron to protect Eriador against invasion through what was later known as the Gap of Rohan. Later, it could have also served to protect Gondor against any attempt by the Black Númenoreans/Corsairs trying to land an army in Enedhwaith and attack Gondor from the west.
I think Orthanc had to be built at the end of the Second Age, between when the Faithful arrived and the forming of the Last Alliance. That location is strategic and it could have been used as a command center to plan the war. The elves of Lindon and the Numenorians could get to it along existing paths. Elrond could go straight south and meet Gil-galad there, as could the Dwarves from Khazad Dum. I don't know if that's how they used it or not, but it would make sense because all the armies could gather at on place.
@@Enerdhil Except we know this is not how it was used. Gil-Galad and Elendil met at Weathertop and then continued to Rivendell. They then crossed the Misty Mountains to Anduin Vale and presumably (since that is the easiest place to ford Anduin) crossed Anduin as well, marching down the eastern bank.
Also, strategically it makes much less sense after the founding of Gondor. Not only was Sauron thought to have died at the downfall of Numenor (until he revealed himself in Mordor again) but also if he was already at the Gap of Rohan, Gondor, the more populous and wealthy half of the Kingdoms in Exile, would have had to have been overrun already.
@@anarionelendili8961
Okay. I just went back and read through the section on the preparations leading up to the final battle of the Last Alliance. Well, it looks like Tolkien decided he needed Isengard for Saruman, so he created it at the end of the Second Age. It is ridiculous how useless it was for a couple thousand years. I suppose he would have used Isengard like I said if it hadn't been so far south that the armies would need boats to cross the Anduin. I couldn't find anything about Gondor joining in the fighting. Did they have to go all the way to Arnor to follow the rest of Elendil's army? That is way too much hiking.
@@Enerdhil Anarion and the rest of the Gondorians were holding the Anduin against Mordor while Isildur went North to get Daddy Elendil. It is unknown if Gondorians attended the Battle of Dagorlad, but they certainly were at the Siege of Barad-dur afterwards, during which Anarion died.
if we just go for utility and for reasonable uses for the Tower, and why it even has a Palantir. My best headcanon is maybe the Numenoreans who built it on their way to being corrupted had a fear or paranoia of the Ents, and the tower of Orthanc was built as watchtower to specifically keep an eye on them so they could be immediately warned. Or it could conversely be a tower to set a point for the extent of their reach. Maybe setting up temporary camps with a small permanent garrison to merely receive and send goods, or muster a formation for expeditions against the Orcs of the Misty mountains.
Whatever the substance the Tower of Orthanc was made of, the Gondorians had tools to cut it. It makes me wonder what kind of saw can cut stone that is too hard for Ents to break. Maybe a diamond blade?
I think the Númenoreans used mithril for various purposes, so that might be it... though using mithril for construction tools sounds like using a $100 bill as a handkerchief ^^ Goes to show how powerful they were at the time
@@LeHobbitFan
I think you are right. Mithril makes sense.
The magical equivalent of a plasma cutting device?
One would assume that the techniques used in constructing Orthanc was something the elves taught the Númenóreans during one of their visits to the island.
@@tominiowa2513 Could be... Then again, since the books are written from the Hobbits' perspective, it might just be that Númenoreans, thanks to the Elves, mastered modern architectural techniques that made their constructions appear almost magical to the eyes of common men.
Like how the appearance of steel swords, that were far superior to iron swords, could have started the stories of legendary magical swords that could cut through anything
@@LeHobbitFan - The first superior swords were made from meteoric iron/nickel (possibly where the idea of Eöl getting the material for Anguirel and Anglachel originated).
Yeah like I said in a different comment I would guess it was built by the Numenorians during the war of the Elves and Sauron to protect the northern lands. One thing that I found mysterious is the symbols carved on the top of the tower. The astrological symbols.
I've always wondered what Orthanc was built out of. It certainly doesn't seem as if it was built out of the common stone of its region.
Can it be, that the Ring of Isengard is actually the remains of an impact crater? The tower might have made out of a Tolkienesk version of meteoric iron. And the Ents cannot destroy the tower, for it is made of some sort of metal, not of stone. Or have you ever seen a root crack through an old steel door?
Interesting theory!
I know Tolkien technically didn't read Lovecraft until late in his life and perhaps only once but I like to imagine the black stone is some extraterrestrial remnant that men just raised from the Earth. I mean Ungoliath seems to indicate things can spawn from the void so why not. Lol
I think the building also harks back to a concept from the past chivalrous tales of the Middle Ages that Tolkien would be familiar with. That men in past ages were giants and reached heights that we in the present can never achieve. You also see that in the old weapons (narsil, glamdring, sting, the swords of the barrow downs etc.) being on a completely different level from what is made in the present of third ages middle earth. The army that is sent to challenge Sauron would not have even been the van of the army that fought at the black gate at the end of the second age. But it cuts both ways as Sauron was the servant of Morgoth; and Shelob is a pale imitation of Ungolianth. Smaug for as powerful as he is, is a shadow of Alcalgon the Black.
Hi, when I first started to think about Orthanc I saw some kind of similarities with Barad-dur and I ask myself to this point. Could it be...? Wasn´t Orthanc too build in the second age just like Barad-dur? Maybe Sauron or somebody or something else in shadow influenced the Men of Gondor to build it like another watch-outpost, I don´t know.
Do remember that Barad-dur is never clearly described in LOTR. Alot from the movies is from PJ own head.
That said, I do expect that it was similar, you can only build a tower so many ways.
So there's another way in which Gollum helped save the world: If he (well, strictly speaking Deagol) hadn't found the One Ring, Saruman would eventually have gotten to it. And THEN where would we be?! 😉
Look at the geography. Orthanc is at a strategic choke point along the main pathway from Arnor to Gondor. It makes all the sense in the world that the Numenoreans would put a citadel there, up against the mountains. Too bad we don't have a geologic map of Middle earth. We might be able to figure sources for the building stone used. Egyptian history makes much more sense when you pursue that rathole.
It would be a good place to collect taxes on goods that are coming from The west side of the mountains to the east side of the mountains so maybe that was why it was built there. Also it would be a good position to have in a defence adept strategy a good place to fall back to defend your homeland in the event that someone did manage to conquer most of your territory on the western side of the mountains.
Clearly the numenoreans were intelligent and interesting folk. I suspect that orthanc would have been built due to it’s being a naturally defensive position. The romans did much the same when they invaded Britain putting their own defenses atop existing ancient hill forts and defensible positions. Presumably it also would have been an essential area to defend against brigands and outlaws who might have used the strategic location as a funnel to trap their victims on one road. Much the same a Robin Hood did with Sherwood Forrest
I always loved the back-history, Tolkien seems to accidentally create. I see the Gap of Rohan like a pass between two "continents" really, between Eriadore and Rhovanion, and the Numenorians, want to block anything further east than the Misty Mountains and the White Mountains in the south. His geo-politics is perfect, aside from the explanations for depopulation and where his colonies are. You'd expect the native Dunlendings to have been more colonized? But no, the whole region, is basically like an Ireland or northern Scotland, between the two kingdoms......Saurman has an untouched land to defend. Perfect.
11:26 "I take you as a liege lord" ... "now it is mine" ... a Hohenzollern in 1525, secularising lands of the Teutonic Order, took them as fief from the King of Poland .... his heirs seem to have forgot that, and that is why the oath in 1525 was one motif of Polish nationalist painting ...
Actually they didn't quite forget. At first the Hohenzollerns took only the title "king in Prussia", not "king of Prussia". I suspect this is behind the curious fact that, according to the Appendices, Brand and his son Bard II, are kings in Dale, not kings of Dale (though Bard's father Bain WAS king of Dale). This could be a very politic recognition of the Dwarf-king as feudal overlord
@@pwmiles56 ah - wonderful, didn't know!
When your evil wizard needs a place to chill: Tower-ex-Machina has got your back.
how did I miss this one?
The algorithm? 🤷🏻♂️
Was Isengard ever considered a city or was it more like a fortress? Could it be that the tower was there to hold the stone and serve as a symbol of control over the area? Honestly, the first time I saw the name of the place I thought it was because it was meant to be "the guard of the Isen". Independently of any conjecture, the place is a misterious and yet fundamental topic in TLOTR.
It seems to have had enough fertile land to sustain some population, though to what extent it did before Saruman houses an army of orcs is unclear.
Wern’t the Eotheod called Eothraim after they moved north into the anduin valley?
Not that I recall.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Sorry, they were called Eothraim previous to their move to the northern Anduin valley, when they lived in the plain east of Mirkwood, my bad!
Sorry again, I could not find a quote to confirm this, might be some MERP cannon, that remained in my head, haha.
a palantir was there
taking the hobbits to isengard
Was the orthanc seeing stone always there?
So far as we know.
@@TolkienLorePodcast - Presumably Elendil brought the Orthanc-Stone from Númenor in 3319 S.A. before Orthanc was built?
We don’t know exactly when it was built, is the problem. I should have more precisely said that so far as we know, as long as both the tower and the stone were in Middle-earth, the stone was housed in the tower.
I always thought Aragon found Isildur's bones inside Orthanc
No, it is specifically said that they didn't (in The Unfinished Tales, end of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields):
"When men considered this secret hoard more closely, they were dismayed. For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found, unless they had been upon Isildur's body when he sank; but if that had been in deep water of strong flow they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream but into shallow water, no more than shoulder-high, Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them - burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst."
@@anarionelendili8961 - There are micro-organisms that eat bone (otherwise the bottom of the lakes, rivers, and oceans would be covered with fish bones). Over 2,700 years passed between Isildur's death and Saruman being given the keys of Orthanc, while there are no remains left on WW1 sunken vessels.
That the Elendilmir did not corrode away would be due to materials (likely infused with some magic) used.
Tolkien contradicts himself here (or the men are wrong) in stating that artifacts would need to be with a body to be found, since a certain gold ring worn by Isildur and lost in the Anduin just prior to his death was found by itself in the bottom muck by a Stoor about 2,450 years later.
@@tominiowa2513 It is believed that that slipped off before he died, so it would not have been with the body. The others would have been on his person.
@@Trigm - It would require magic to preserve the body (or even just a relatively intact skeleton) for more than 2,700 years. Not a nice thing to imagine, but various carrion scavengers would quickly dispose of the flesh and likely scatter or even consume the bones while ignoring metal and mineral artifacts.
Min