The driving at 3:16 is ridiculously good given the conditions, between this and your dirt bike video you continue to impress me with not only your ability to explain things, but to take that knowledge and then use it to be excellent at driving/riding. I think there would be very few engineers of your calibre that can drive like that and have time to make videos for the public to enjoy. Great video as always.
Dude you have no idea how much this video helped me. It gave me SUCH an aha moment that I got out a journal and started taking notes and drawing diagrams so I would remember and understand it better. My gratitude for your generosity of time and talents is immense. Thank you so much my guy I REALLY REALLY appreciate it 👌👌
THANK YOU!!! Literally have my Formula Ford up on stands right now while I play with steering arm angles. Measuring Ackerman is slow and tedious.... :(
Great video and explanation of the Ackerman principle and its effects, Kyle. Enjoyed it immensely! Carroll Smith addressed the problem of changing to pro-ackerman, as you call it, in his book Tune to Win over 30 years ago. His solution on a Formula car (Not F1, may have been an F5000, I don't recall) was to move the steering rack position. On the car in question, the rack was originally mounted behind the centerline of the front axle. Moving the rack forward, closer to that centerline meant that the tie rods were now angled slightly backward, changing the geometry and making the inside wheel turn much more rapidly, creating the "pro ackerman" you speak of. All of this was in an attempt to reduced drag on the straightaways due to using toe-out to improve turn-in. He remarked that his driver was delighted with the way the car responded to the change. My own experience with it on my Mk 1 Ford Fiesta autocross car was the same. In this case, a normally dead understeering car was improved dramatically to virtually neutral handling, wanting to literally snap into a corner at just a small twitch of the steering wheel. It works!
Kyle does a very good job of describing what he knows in a more useful context than most experts I've tried to learn from. That car still sucks on that slalom but great to see it from that angle which is very relevant to the discussion. Joe you've raised a good point to kick my gray matter into gear, but I wonder if you can check your data and report back. My brain tells me many F5000 racks are in front of the axle and moving the rack back closer to the axle is what is required to achieve that effect of more ackerman with more steering? I'm building a car and this issue had me stumped till your comment, I don't have access to Carroll's book.
@@funkiwikid6106 Hi Kiwikid. Here is a link to an online copy of Smiths book, Engineer to Win. The info on increasing Ackerman begins on page 214. In it, Smith admits to not completely understanding why it works, but goes on to describe his method for determining how much to incorporate based on the vehicle and the specific track being raced on. In his example, the steering rack is located behind the front axle centerline. If the rack is located forward of the centerline, it appears to me that it would have to be moved forward as well to achieve the desired result, but I'm not certain of this. All of his books, Engineer to Win, Tune to win, Drive to Win and Nuts,Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing were published in the 80s, and while some of the information has likely been rendered obsolete by developments in the interim, It was valid and solid at the time. Additionally, he wrote them in simple language, geared to the layman. He also was refreshingly candid (read: politically incorrect) in his observations of things he disagreed with. I highly recommend all of his books. If you search the titles and his name, you may find the rest of them online by now. There may be new or used copies available from online bookstores as well. Hope this helps. pdfcoffee.com/qdownload/engineer-to-win-pdf-free.html
@@jdunlap2 Hi Joe, thanks very much for the response and the link. Unfortunately the download is a bit of a tease, it only has 31 pages selected from the first 41 pages of the book. However you've inspired me enough that I will create a few scenarios in CAD so I can play with it and see what transpires ?
@@funkiwikid6106 Best of luck to you with your endevor. It should be really interesting now that computing power is available to investigate an old idea that seems to work, but is not well understood. If you would, please get back to me in the future with your findings. I'm still curious to this day as to what really is happening when this change is made!
@@jdunlap2 Happy to share the findings. I'm certain it will alter the rate of change of ackerman for each wheel, which direction yet to be determined, that will be the easy bit. Determining how that affects the car in reality will be quite another challenge ? On track testing can often provide more questions than answers as well. The more you learn about suspension, the more you learn there's yet more that you need to learn. And the more you learn there's a surprising number of people going really fast with no real understanding of how they got there. Can you recall if Carroll mentioned the ackerman setting he started with ? And then what the improvement to the handling was after moving the rack ?
In karting, ackerman is a term for a steering setup where the steering rods are connected to the ends of a short bracket that is connected to the steering column. The steering column is in the middle of this bracket, so the connections are not centered wrt to the column. What this does is lift the kart when the wheel is turned such that weight is transferred to the rear outside tire. This is where you get most of your grip in a kart.
@5:53 "..moment out of the corner.."....basically understeer! even though slip angle might've been optimized! ....damn; would've never thought of it this way! thanks a bunch!
combining anti-ackerman and pro-ackerman (progressive transition) should be achievable by using a rack and pinion steering, and replace the gear that drives the rack by a "cam-gear" (non-circular) and modify the rack to accomodate the changing radius of ths gear. the travel of the rack will then be a non-linear function of the gears rotation.
Well, anti-akerman might be helpful for a car that has a lot of rotational speed in the rear. The formula engine generally runs up to 12k rpm and is RWD. From F4-F1 there’s likely to be different setups for the different speeds and different budgets. The actual reason anti-akerman might be necessary bc turning around an apex fast requires a subtle slip angle much like a drift, but a very small angle almost unnoticeable compared to drifting in a drift battle. It might be a measure to counteract the wild rear so you can make more subtle maneuvers while not having to get into a full on drift. The downside is it’s counterintuitive and you lose sensitivity to how the car is behaving, but an expert could see advantages to this because it gives them a little more grip to figure it out at higher speeds. And now I know why I was driving so badly when switching from Formula Ford to MX-5(miata) on iRacing.
Thanks, been waiting for this one! The reasons for the convention I had been following ie. anti-Ackerman steering are now clear to me. Not quite the "voodoo" it had been. Including tire loading into the explanation really helped me wrap my brain around the unnecessary slip-angle of an inside tire on a chassis (under heavy g-load) with full Ackerman steering. The off-road application of Ackerman steering also makes sense that extra initial yaw torque would help achieve the higher slip angles necessary to maintain cornering force on slippery surfaces. The basic definition of Ackerman steering caused me to question the traditional convention, though it had a purpose. I just didn't know why. With the lack of a solid answer from my usual source of information--the internet--and no contact with a physics major with expertise in tire dynamics, I could not comfortably accept what I had been told without understanding why. Now I can accept it, and do understand. Thanks again I appreciate your motivation to inform and educate the society of automotive enthusiasts where usually the people who do know the answers in top tier racing keep them secret.
hmushmann2 Thanks for the kind words! I'd hate to disappoint, but I keep a lot of my "top tier" knowledge secret too... I feel like there is a lot of knowledge that is not well documented or discussed that should be, and my main aim is to help people understand and design better race cars! Glad that I am helping! Also, you can now consider yourself as having contact with a physics major with expertise in tyre dynamics (well Aerospace Engineering major technically...) =P
What is your take on the effects generated by a vehicle that is constant 4WD? Better yet, one with limited slip from the center drive line that will send most power to the front tires when on throttle. What would be the effects of on-power with or without ackerman, vs a rear wheel drive system?
Wow! Now I understand how those 3 degrees that the rear wheels of my car turn in high weight transfers help cornering. Interesting! Intant subscribe hahahaha
Hey if the important thing in a tight corner is that "drag differential" I guess I'll call it, where you want the inside wheel to be dragged back more than the outside, why not just use anti ackerman all the time and combine it with a certain amount of brake-steer/brake vectoring to the inside or even torque vectoring to the outside?
Load is transferred to the outside wheels during cornering. So, to not compromise handling of the vehicle, outside wheel turns by more angle when compared to inner wheel. Usually in race cars like Formula One, this kind of setup is used.
A little note on : 7:28 "zero ackermann is perfect ackeramann" .. Actually zero Ackermann would be parallel steering. Perfect Ackermann would be 100% Ackermann
The geometry comes from the angle of the tierod arm on the spindle, so im not sure how you could actually make this variable. It would have to have a hinged tie rod arm . That would be quite complicated
How does the variable of caster play into the migration of contact patch centers, and therefore slip angle? Would this affect the dynamic would this affect the dynamic Ackerman at all? Side note, if I understand the video correctly.... Anti-akerman geometry is done to achieve parallel wheels at high speed , low steering angle inputs, and high slip angle?
So I am designing this quadricycle (4 wheeled bicycle) which is capable of transporting two persons, one between the front wheels, one between the back. I'm designing this with my buddy and so I was just trying to figure out the turn angles for the front wheels and how I should design the steering mechanism to follow the so called Ackerman Steering Model. Would you have any advice to give us, or perhaps be able to refer us to another video or article discussing this topic? Any help would be very much appreciated. I was also wondering, would the slip angle which was discussed in this video also work and bebenifitial to our quadricycle? We're planning to use it for long distance trips trough all kinds of places, as long as it's a paved road. Thanks for this video and I'm looking forward to your response!
sir awesome explanation...but i want to use anti ackermann in an off road vehicle as well as I want best performance during maneuverability too...what you will suggest
Could the setup at the end of the video be achieved using separate racks for each wheel, having inboard steering go slow then fast, while having outboard going at a constant rate? Probably wouldn't be the cheapest / most lightweight system, but it should be effective
What would you suggest for Autocross, time attack things like that.. People are telling me, to go negative on camber ... I think more negative camber are more for looks stance drop look things but are any good for street daily or autocross roads...
+ChickenM4ster You definitely will need negative camber, the trick is to not put on too much! See my latest buggy testing video? Too much camber there. About 2 degreesish will probably do you, but that can vary wildly depending on setup between 3 and 1 degrees, or even further apart. I'll be putting a series of videos up on camber, caster, kingpin and toe once I return from the US that should help here.
OK, you've explained the theory and uses. Could you explain how to adjust the Ackerman angle, pls? What I've read tells me its a matter of tie rod position, in-board or out-board, which would require a new/ different steering arm/knuckle or modifying the existing unit. Yes?
Yes, try this: th-cam.com/video/7RDSZjezy8Q/w-d-xo.html By moving the rose/ball joint inboard, you make it (more) Ackerman where the steering rack is behind, relative to the axle. Some brackets can do the trick. But as that video explains, it is a complex of forces and angles.
The difference in angles between left and right tire can be achieved by an electric steering system? Having a position sensor at the steering wheel and one motor connected to the rack of each wheel having independent steering for each side? Great video, keep going!
Rodrigo Cunillé Yep that would be a way of doing it, however that is quite complicated, costly and heavy. It also would not be allowed by most rules bodies as it would mean the steering column is not physically connected to the rack. I thought about it and go-karts manage to achieve the ideal setup I described, however I am not sure how to do this with a rack and pinion system... Thanks for the compliments!
+KYLE.DRIVES I suppose if with think of this as dynamic toe, the electric/computer could be adjusting toe and we could still have any steering system we want.
***** Hey Man! Awesome video. I still have a doubt. I've set my ackerman angles to intersect in a point behind the rear axel. When in full lock the outside tyre intersects the rear axel line closer to the cg than the inside tyre. Same thing happens when the ackerman angle is set to intersect at a point before the rear axel. What does this means? what are the pro and cons that this can cause? NOTE: The steering rack is not alligned with the steering links due to suspension geometry.
This is a great explanation for racing cars intended to operate at the limit of grip, but how does it translate to cars such as Locosts, where steering feel is more important than ultimate performance? I assume it becomes less to do with optimising slip angles and more to do with the way toe in / out affects the balance of the car mid corner...?
That reminds me when I was driving a RWD Ford Sierra in the winter and that car would get light on the steering right before the rear wheels would start to slip and that way you did get a clear message when you was getting near the limit. Only car I have ever driven that did that and gave such a clear signal that you was at the limit of grip ...
+KYLE.DRIVES Great video, great explanation, thank you. What do you mean by gokart steering? Is that the type of setup where the tie rods are connected in the center off the steering shaft around a circular path? I am currently working on the suspension/steering geometry of an SAE Baja car
You want the hardest tyres possible. Thay way you have to lowest possible slip angle and the lowest amount of energy lost in heat. Hypothetically: If you have stiff tyres with 0 Slip angle you need perfect ackerman. Ofcourse you can't get 0 Slip angle... and this is where more information about the car would be needed and it gets difficult.
I was just having this same conversation with a friend of mine and found your video. Our thoughts were you should teach this to the Mclaren F1 engineers... I don't think they get it 👍
Recently I watch a lot of your videos and its very interesting. I really love this kind of stuff. What kind of engineering field is this? I mean if I want to study this in university, what faculty that gonna teach this? or is it a specific study in the motorsport itself?
nice vid hey everyone has heard about caster camber toe in and out I was wondering if you could do a vid on included angles what they are and what can be adjusted ive not been able to find much on this online
+Outlaw The included angle is just the angle between the kingpin and the wheel axis, i.e. the KPI + the Camber, for that you may want to check out these vids: th-cam.com/video/uJMoOnXdDvU/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/mh_BUOguZQk/w-d-xo.html
+Dipil Kamediya Errr if you weren't interested in the topic, why did you click on this video then? It's not like it's mainstream youtube or anything...
Hello man my meaning is that I was finding some good explanation and your video give me at last so I was happy and I could sleep better. I am appreciating you man..... :)
Hey, i'm not sure if you're going to have time to read this but i have recently completed making a go kart. It goes fast but doesn't steer AT ALL the front wheels just slide and it continues to go straight. I'm pretty sure this is because my ackerman angle is completely off. i have no idea what to do.. could anyone help? i bought a tie rod and spindle kit online but there was no guide.. my spindle arms face forward, i'm not sure if that is incorrect.. i can send photos but any tips will help thanks
+TheLatestGamers Horatio Ah, I'm pretty sure I know exactly what's going on here: your rear axle is live and fixed! When I lock my rear axle, turning becomes something of a gamble. You can solve the steering difficulties by having only one wheel drive. I know that sounds like it sucks, but it's just fine for on-road and light-duty off-road. Just make sure you have decent brakes! The steering setup you have is called a 'trailing arm', which is exactly what I have and is perfectly fine to do.
+Acerracer202 yes.. I see what you're saying.. When I go around a corner I need one wheel to turn faster.. But I think my problem is worse than that.. I have seen many videos from TH-camrs such as +carsandcameras and +hnat automotive I think if you are on dirt the inner wheel slips allowing it to turn.. I think all the geometry it wrong.. It must be the way i have aligned the tie rods.. But thank you and thank you for your time :))
I hate this fad that I see in my country, where they slam the front of a FWD car to make it "grip more" in the quarter mile. I have read a (yes, single) book about vehicle dynamics and my take is that it might work to a certain extent, but ultimately the drawbacks are more than the gains. The idea for these people is "more weight to the front = more grip". While true, I think they are not taking into account that the biggest enemy of takeoff grip is squat weight transfer. If you slam the front (killing all suspension travel) but then the back gets compressed like an accordion, the weight gets transferred anyways and you still lose grip. Wouldn't it be better to anti-squat the rear suspension and kill weight transfer; since this way you wouldn't loose wheel travel in the front that can cause massive understeer? Do both work? Am I way off? Please help. When I hear them defend this "because DRAGSTERS", without taking into account that they are RWD, wheelie a lot and have completely different suspensions (if any); I really don't know what to say anymore. If this is not enough to get you to think about this problem, look at these pictures and think that these people defend the idea, that this setup makes their cars go faster all around. sp7.fotolog.com/photo/55/21/34/10segund0s/1260217128273_f.jpg sp5.fotolog.com/photo/37/48/91/peegaadoaalpisso/1249583446731_f.jpg
Esteban Franchina I can see slamming the front as being an advantage for FWD drag specific cars, as the weight transfer under acceleration will cause the rear to compress and the front to extend, so you wouldn't actually be losing suspension travel as such until you hit the brakes. Slamming the car at the front will mean that it should level out fairly well when under acceleration, which will be better for aero. Obviously there will be pretty significant handling problems for circuit use though... Lowering the front will not actually result in any significant weight transfer forward, as the CG does not move significantly with rake of the car. I would have thought lowering the whole car would be best for a FWD drag car, as it will lower the CG the most, causing minimal weight distribution towards the rear. Anti-squat is a tricky little thing, I'm not 100% sure on this but I would have thought your front axle grip under acceleration is more dependent on your level of anti-dive (it works both ways). In saying all this, I've never done design work for a FWD car or for a drag car, so take everything I say with a grain of salt...
KYLE.DRIVES Also, as an aside, anti-squat, anti-dive, different springs and dampers can never kill weight transfer, they can only change the timeframe over which it takes place. Given a constant acceleration and a long enough timeframe, all suspension systems will result in the same level of weight transfer. The only way to lower total weight transfer is to lower the cg height
KYLE.DRIVES Thank youuuuu! Since they defend the car is better all around, instead of being a one-trick-pony; it's so good to know I wasn't right but I am not as wrong as they are! HAHA!!! Can't wait for the Supercar Aerodynamics espisodeee!!!
In normal driving,even as slow as a farm wagon or a riding mower,the inner circle,as viewed from above should always be cutting a smaller circle.Comparing to racing is like comparing apples to oranges.Don't over complicate the basic lesson us novices need for our slow moving machinery.Google 19th century Studebaker wagon co info.and study the drawings.(Or watch the video 'Go kart steering explained.INCLUDING ACKERMAN THEORY. John wade,you tube.
The driving at 3:16 is ridiculously good given the conditions, between this and your dirt bike video you continue to impress me with not only your ability to explain things, but to take that knowledge and then use it to be excellent at driving/riding. I think there would be very few engineers of your calibre that can drive like that and have time to make videos for the public to enjoy.
Great video as always.
3:16
Dude you have no idea how much this video helped me. It gave me SUCH an aha moment that I got out a journal and started taking notes and drawing diagrams so I would remember and understand it better. My gratitude for your generosity of time and talents is immense. Thank you so much my guy I REALLY REALLY appreciate it 👌👌
Whew, I had no idea steering geometry was this complicated. Thanks. I'm a little bit less dumb now :)
You have no idea how helpful your videos are.. it nearly cleared some 8 problems i was having.... keep up the good work
WOW! I've been trying to understand Pro-ackerman vs Anti-ackerman vs Zero-ackerman forever. Finally understand it.
THANK YOU!!! Literally have my Formula Ford up on stands right now while I play with steering arm angles. Measuring Ackerman is slow and tedious.... :(
Great video and explanation of the Ackerman principle and its effects, Kyle. Enjoyed it immensely!
Carroll Smith addressed the problem of changing to pro-ackerman, as you call it, in his book Tune to Win over 30 years ago. His solution on a Formula car (Not F1, may have been an F5000, I don't recall) was to move the steering rack position. On the car in question, the rack was originally mounted behind the centerline of the front axle. Moving the rack forward, closer to that centerline meant that the tie rods were now angled slightly backward, changing the geometry and making the inside wheel turn much more rapidly, creating the "pro ackerman" you speak of. All of this was in an attempt to reduced drag on the straightaways due to using toe-out to improve turn-in. He remarked that his driver was delighted with the way the car responded to the change. My own experience with it on my Mk 1 Ford Fiesta autocross car was the same. In this case, a normally dead understeering car was improved dramatically to virtually neutral handling, wanting to literally snap into a corner at just a small twitch of the steering wheel. It works!
Kyle does a very good job of describing what he knows in a more useful context than most experts I've tried to learn from. That car still sucks on that slalom but great to see it from that angle which is very relevant to the discussion. Joe you've raised a good point to kick my gray matter into gear, but I wonder if you can check your data and report back. My brain tells me many F5000 racks are in front of the axle and moving the rack back closer to the axle is what is required to achieve that effect of more ackerman with more steering? I'm building a car and this issue had me stumped till your comment, I don't have access to Carroll's book.
@@funkiwikid6106 Hi Kiwikid. Here is a link to an online copy of Smiths book, Engineer to Win. The info on increasing Ackerman begins on page 214. In it, Smith admits to not completely understanding why it works, but goes on to describe his method for determining how much to incorporate based on the vehicle and the specific track being raced on. In his example, the steering rack is located behind the front axle centerline. If the rack is located forward of the centerline, it appears to me that it would have to be moved forward as well to achieve the desired result, but I'm not certain of this. All of his books, Engineer to Win, Tune to win, Drive to Win and Nuts,Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing were published in the 80s, and while some of the information has likely been rendered obsolete by developments in the interim, It was valid and solid at the time. Additionally, he wrote them in simple language, geared to the layman. He also was refreshingly candid (read: politically incorrect) in his observations of things he disagreed with. I highly recommend all of his books. If you search the titles and his name, you may find the rest of them online by now. There may be new or used copies available from online bookstores as well. Hope this helps. pdfcoffee.com/qdownload/engineer-to-win-pdf-free.html
@@jdunlap2 Hi Joe, thanks very much for the response and the link. Unfortunately the download is a bit of a tease, it only has 31 pages selected from the first 41 pages of the book. However you've inspired me enough that I will create a few scenarios in CAD so I can play with it and see what transpires ?
@@funkiwikid6106 Best of luck to you with your endevor. It should be really interesting now that computing power is available to investigate an old idea that seems to work, but is not well understood. If you would, please get back to me in the future with your findings. I'm still curious to this day as to what really is happening when this change is made!
@@jdunlap2 Happy to share the findings. I'm certain it will alter the rate of change of ackerman for each wheel, which direction yet to be determined, that will be the easy bit. Determining how that affects the car in reality will be quite another challenge ? On track testing can often provide more questions than answers as well. The more you learn about suspension, the more you learn there's yet more that you need to learn. And the more you learn there's a surprising number of people going really fast with no real understanding of how they got there. Can you recall if Carroll mentioned the ackerman setting he started with ? And then what the improvement to the handling was after moving the rack ?
Legendary explaination. Simple enough to understand. Keep up the good work.
Great explanation mate, I'm very impressed with F1 drivers in the rain, particularly Verstappen's save in Brazil 2016
In karting, ackerman is a term for a steering setup where the steering rods are connected to the ends of a short bracket that is connected to the steering column. The steering column is in the middle of this bracket, so the connections are not centered wrt to the column. What this does is lift the kart when the wheel is turned such that weight is transferred to the rear outside tire. This is where you get most of your grip in a kart.
@5:53 "..moment out of the corner.."....basically understeer! even though slip angle might've been optimized! ....damn; would've never thought of it this way! thanks a bunch!
combining anti-ackerman and pro-ackerman (progressive transition) should be achievable by using a rack and pinion steering, and replace the gear that drives the rack by a "cam-gear" (non-circular) and modify the rack to accomodate the changing radius of ths gear. the travel of the rack will then be a non-linear function of the gears rotation.
Well, anti-akerman might be helpful for a car that has a lot of rotational speed in the rear. The formula engine generally runs up to 12k rpm and is RWD. From F4-F1 there’s likely to be different setups for the different speeds and different budgets. The actual reason anti-akerman might be necessary bc turning around an apex fast requires a subtle slip angle much like a drift, but a very small angle almost unnoticeable compared to drifting in a drift battle. It might be a measure to counteract the wild rear so you can make more subtle maneuvers while not having to get into a full on drift. The downside is it’s counterintuitive and you lose sensitivity to how the car is behaving, but an expert could see advantages to this because it gives them a little more grip to figure it out at higher speeds. And now I know why I was driving so badly when switching from Formula Ford to MX-5(miata) on iRacing.
Thanks, been waiting for this one! The reasons for the convention I had been following ie. anti-Ackerman steering are now clear to me. Not quite the "voodoo" it had been.
Including tire loading into the explanation really helped me wrap my brain around the unnecessary slip-angle of an inside tire on a chassis (under heavy g-load) with full Ackerman steering. The off-road application of Ackerman steering also makes sense that extra initial yaw torque would help achieve the higher slip angles necessary to maintain cornering force on slippery surfaces.
The basic definition of Ackerman steering caused me to question the traditional convention, though it had a purpose. I just didn't know why. With the lack of a solid answer from my usual source of information--the internet--and no contact with a physics major with expertise in tire dynamics, I could not comfortably accept what I had been told without understanding why. Now I can accept it, and do understand.
Thanks again I appreciate your motivation to inform and educate the society of automotive enthusiasts where usually the people who do know the answers in top tier racing keep them secret.
hmushmann2 Thanks for the kind words! I'd hate to disappoint, but I keep a lot of my "top tier" knowledge secret too...
I feel like there is a lot of knowledge that is not well documented or discussed that should be, and my main aim is to help people understand and design better race cars! Glad that I am helping!
Also, you can now consider yourself as having contact with a physics major with expertise in tyre dynamics (well Aerospace Engineering major technically...) =P
What is your take on the effects generated by a vehicle that is constant 4WD?
Better yet, one with limited slip from the center drive line that will send most power to the front tires when on throttle. What would be the effects of on-power with or without ackerman, vs a rear wheel drive system?
Wow!
Now I understand how those 3 degrees that the rear wheels of my car turn in high weight transfers help cornering. Interesting!
Intant subscribe hahahaha
Yep, it's crazy how much i can feel it when my saab kicks the rear around when it's FWD
Hey if the important thing in a tight corner is that "drag differential" I guess I'll call it, where you want the inside wheel to be dragged back more than the outside, why not just use anti ackerman all the time and combine it with a certain amount of brake-steer/brake vectoring to the inside or even torque vectoring to the outside?
In anti Ackerman steering why the outer wheel has more angle than the inner angle??
Load is transferred to the outside wheels during cornering. So, to not compromise handling of the vehicle, outside wheel turns by more angle when compared to inner wheel. Usually in race cars like Formula One, this kind of setup is used.
Kyle, I'm kinda new to your channel but I believe you deserve much more views and subs. Your videos are excellent!
Are you Australian by the way?
Wtrxprs007able Thanks! People keep commenting saying that, if only they would increase at a faster rate...
And yep, from Sydney
yeah, if only..
nice
Does the toe out setting will counter the nature of the Ackerman when corning?
A little note on : 7:28 "zero ackermann is perfect ackeramann" .. Actually zero Ackermann would be parallel steering. Perfect Ackermann would be 100% Ackermann
I have a question. If my car have a fixed Ackerman angle on the front, how does it affect my car handlin if I make my front tyre toe out or toe in?
The geometry comes from the angle of the tierod arm on the spindle, so im not sure how you could actually make this variable. It would have to have a hinged tie rod arm . That would be quite complicated
How does the variable of caster play into the migration of contact patch centers, and therefore slip angle? Would this affect the dynamic would this affect the dynamic Ackerman at all?
Side note, if I understand the video correctly.... Anti-akerman geometry is done to achieve parallel wheels at high speed , low steering angle inputs, and high slip angle?
So I am designing this quadricycle (4 wheeled bicycle) which is capable of transporting two persons, one between the front wheels, one between the back. I'm designing this with my buddy and so I was just trying to figure out the turn angles for the front wheels and how I should design the steering mechanism to follow the so called Ackerman Steering Model. Would you have any advice to give us, or perhaps be able to refer us to another video or article discussing this topic?
Any help would be very much appreciated.
I was also wondering, would the slip angle which was discussed in this video also work and bebenifitial to our quadricycle? We're planning to use it for long distance trips trough all kinds of places, as long as it's a paved road.
Thanks for this video and I'm looking forward to your response!
sir awesome explanation...but i want to use anti ackermann in an off road vehicle as well as I want best performance during maneuverability too...what you will suggest
excellent videos kyle...you can easily be a professor at a university!
In description . ..By turning you mean more angular turning of inside wheel or rotational turning
Please explain
Superb explanation mate. Cheers
Ackerman looks like front-axis toe-out, and Anti-Ackerman looks like front-axis toe-in to me...
In fact it is. It's just not statis toe, but coming with the steering wheel turn.
Could the setup at the end of the video be achieved using separate racks for each wheel, having inboard steering go slow then fast, while having outboard going at a constant rate? Probably wouldn't be the cheapest / most lightweight system, but it should be effective
What would you suggest for Autocross, time attack things like that.. People are telling me, to go negative on camber ... I think more negative camber are more for looks stance drop look things but are any good for street daily or autocross roads...
+ChickenM4ster You definitely will need negative camber, the trick is to not put on too much! See my latest buggy testing video? Too much camber there. About 2 degreesish will probably do you, but that can vary wildly depending on setup between 3 and 1 degrees, or even further apart. I'll be putting a series of videos up on camber, caster, kingpin and toe once I return from the US that should help here.
what is Ackerman percentage and what is its significance??
Thank you for taking time to explain this- I am grateful-
Could anyone explain what is ackermann Percentage and what does it signify with that percentage !!!
OK, you've explained the theory and uses. Could you explain how to adjust the Ackerman angle, pls? What I've read tells me its a matter of tie rod position, in-board or out-board, which would require a new/ different steering arm/knuckle or modifying the existing unit. Yes?
Yes, try this:
th-cam.com/video/7RDSZjezy8Q/w-d-xo.html
By moving the rose/ball joint inboard, you make it (more) Ackerman where the steering rack is behind, relative to the axle. Some brackets can do the trick.
But as that video explains, it is a complex of forces and angles.
So a progressive toe on the inside wheel is the ideal?
The difference in angles between left and right tire can be achieved by an electric steering system? Having a position sensor at the steering wheel and one motor connected to the rack of each wheel having independent steering for each side? Great video, keep going!
Rodrigo Cunillé Yep that would be a way of doing it, however that is quite complicated, costly and heavy. It also would not be allowed by most rules bodies as it would mean the steering column is not physically connected to the rack. I thought about it and go-karts manage to achieve the ideal setup I described, however I am not sure how to do this with a rack and pinion system...
Thanks for the compliments!
+KYLE.DRIVES I suppose if with think of this as dynamic toe, the electric/computer could be adjusting toe and we could still have any steering system we want.
Thankyou for these videos! Clear and very helpful for an engineering student like myself. A step-up from engineeringexplained ;)
edwarnett28 If only my subscriber count was a step up from EngineeringExplained...
Thanks for the compliments!
give it time...
Your best video by far, keep up the work
***** Hey Man! Awesome video. I still have a doubt. I've set my ackerman angles to intersect in a point behind the rear axel. When in full lock the outside tyre intersects the rear axel line closer to the cg than the inside tyre. Same thing happens when the ackerman angle is set to intersect at a point before the rear axel. What does this means? what are the pro and cons that this can cause?
NOTE: The steering rack is not alligned with the steering links due to suspension geometry.
when I was a kid I thought making a fully working wheel is easy, now I faced myself with full of disappointment
Subscribed... There is alot of wrong info on the internet about acerman angle
This is a great explanation for racing cars intended to operate at the limit of grip, but how does it translate to cars such as Locosts, where steering feel is more important than ultimate performance? I assume it becomes less to do with optimising slip angles and more to do with the way toe in / out affects the balance of the car mid corner...?
That reminds me when I was driving a RWD Ford Sierra in the winter and that car would get light on the steering right before the rear wheels would start to slip and that way you did get a clear message when you was getting near the limit. Only car I have ever driven that did that and gave such a clear signal that you was at the limit of grip ...
what is the best Ackerman percentage for off road cars ( Baja) ??
1º-5º maybe
Can u please make a video on how steering setup should be made for drifting..
th-cam.com/video/7RDSZjezy8Q/w-d-xo.html
Bro one vedio on anti ackerman complete geometry and calculation...
+KYLE.DRIVES Great video, great explanation, thank you. What do you mean by gokart steering? Is that the type of setup where the tie rods are connected in the center off the steering shaft around a circular path? I am currently working on the suspension/steering geometry of an SAE Baja car
In description . ..By turning you mean more angular turning of inside wheel or rotational turning
Please explain @KYLE.ENGINEERS
Great video! Shout out from ECU Racing!
I wish you'd revisit this topic with your F1 experience
Hi great stuff. Could you make a video explaining wheel hopping in Nascars etc?
Excellent video Kyle!
I wanted to ask you, for a 3-wheel car (max speed 30Km/h) that needs to save as much energy which is the best choice?
You want the hardest tyres possible. Thay way you have to lowest possible slip angle and the lowest amount of energy lost in heat.
Hypothetically: If you have stiff tyres with 0 Slip angle you need perfect ackerman.
Ofcourse you can't get 0 Slip angle... and this is where more information about the car would be needed and it gets difficult.
Thank you for the response and all the help!
I was just having this same conversation with a friend of mine and found your video. Our thoughts were you should teach this to the Mclaren F1 engineers... I don't think they get it 👍
I think they got it this season
Recently I watch a lot of your videos and its very interesting. I really love this kind of stuff. What kind of engineering field is this? I mean if I want to study this in university, what faculty that gonna teach this? or is it a specific study in the motorsport itself?
Mechanical Engineering with a focus toward automotive. Find a University that has a solid Formula SAE program or Baja SAE program.
nice vid hey everyone has heard about caster camber toe in and out I was wondering if you could do a vid on included angles what they are and what can be adjusted ive not been able to find much on this online
+Outlaw The included angle is just the angle between the kingpin and the wheel axis, i.e. the KPI + the Camber, for that you may want to check out these vids:
th-cam.com/video/uJMoOnXdDvU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/mh_BUOguZQk/w-d-xo.html
why did the dude disappear?
That was really helpful, thank you!
its 3 am in morning ...
after watching this video I will have sound sleep....
+Dipil Kamediya Errr if you weren't interested in the topic, why did you click on this video then? It's not like it's mainstream youtube or anything...
Hello man my meaning is that I was finding some good explanation and your video give me at last so I was happy and I could sleep better. I am appreciating you man..... :)
Ah right, I thought you were saying I was putting you to sleep! haha
Thanks for watching!
thanx for video :) Now I know, what I need for my buggy (anti - Ackerman)
Hey, i'm not sure if you're going to have time to read this but i have recently completed making a go kart. It goes fast but doesn't steer AT ALL the front wheels just slide and it continues to go straight. I'm pretty sure this is because my ackerman angle is completely off. i have no idea what to do.. could anyone help? i bought a tie rod and spindle kit online but there was no guide.. my spindle arms face forward, i'm not sure if that is incorrect.. i can send photos but any tips will help
thanks
+KYLE.DRIVES
+TheLatestGamers Horatio Ah, I'm pretty sure I know exactly what's going on here: your rear axle is live and fixed! When I lock my rear axle, turning becomes something of a gamble. You can solve the steering difficulties by having only one wheel drive. I know that sounds like it sucks, but it's just fine for on-road and light-duty off-road. Just make sure you have decent brakes! The steering setup you have is called a 'trailing arm', which is exactly what I have and is perfectly fine to do.
+Acerracer202 yes.. I see what you're saying.. When I go around a corner I need one wheel to turn faster.. But I think my problem is worse than that.. I have seen many videos from TH-camrs such as +carsandcameras and +hnat automotive I think if you are on dirt the inner wheel slips allowing it to turn.. I think all the geometry it wrong.. It must be the way i have aligned the tie rods.. But thank you and thank you for your time :))
I cant figure out the difference between ackerman and toe
this is great thank you
Great stuff.
Thank you!
Thanks, man
Can't see the chalkboard
I hate this fad that I see in my country, where they slam the front of a FWD car to make it "grip more" in the quarter mile. I have read a (yes, single) book about vehicle dynamics and my take is that it might work to a certain extent, but ultimately the drawbacks are more than the gains. The idea for these people is "more weight to the front = more grip". While true, I think they are not taking into account that the biggest enemy of takeoff grip is squat weight transfer. If you slam the front (killing all suspension travel) but then the back gets compressed like an accordion, the weight gets transferred anyways and you still lose grip. Wouldn't it be better to anti-squat the rear suspension and kill weight transfer; since this way you wouldn't loose wheel travel in the front that can cause massive understeer? Do both work? Am I way off? Please help. When I hear them defend this "because DRAGSTERS", without taking into account that they are RWD, wheelie a lot and have completely different suspensions (if any); I really don't know what to say anymore.
If this is not enough to get you to think about this problem, look at these pictures and think that these people defend the idea, that this setup makes their cars go faster all around.
sp7.fotolog.com/photo/55/21/34/10segund0s/1260217128273_f.jpg
sp5.fotolog.com/photo/37/48/91/peegaadoaalpisso/1249583446731_f.jpg
Esteban Franchina I can see slamming the front as being an advantage for FWD drag specific cars, as the weight transfer under acceleration will cause the rear to compress and the front to extend, so you wouldn't actually be losing suspension travel as such until you hit the brakes. Slamming the car at the front will mean that it should level out fairly well when under acceleration, which will be better for aero. Obviously there will be pretty significant handling problems for circuit use though...
Lowering the front will not actually result in any significant weight transfer forward, as the CG does not move significantly with rake of the car. I would have thought lowering the whole car would be best for a FWD drag car, as it will lower the CG the most, causing minimal weight distribution towards the rear. Anti-squat is a tricky little thing, I'm not 100% sure on this but I would have thought your front axle grip under acceleration is more dependent on your level of anti-dive (it works both ways).
In saying all this, I've never done design work for a FWD car or for a drag car, so take everything I say with a grain of salt...
KYLE.DRIVES Also, as an aside, anti-squat, anti-dive, different springs and dampers can never kill weight transfer, they can only change the timeframe over which it takes place. Given a constant acceleration and a long enough timeframe, all suspension systems will result in the same level of weight transfer. The only way to lower total weight transfer is to lower the cg height
KYLE.DRIVES Thank youuuuu! Since they defend the car is better all around, instead of being a one-trick-pony; it's so good to know I wasn't right but I am not as wrong as they are! HAHA!!! Can't wait for the Supercar Aerodynamics espisodeee!!!
No problem, the Aerodynamics of Hypercars series launches in two weeks time, so stay tuned!
Great video, but it's Ackermann
Alright calm down there Daniel Radcliffe and dumb this shit down for me.
ts you xbox gamer tag
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HACKERMAN
In normal driving,even as slow as a farm wagon or a riding mower,the inner circle,as viewed from above should always be cutting a smaller circle.Comparing to racing is like comparing apples to oranges.Don't over complicate the basic lesson us novices need for our slow moving machinery.Google 19th century Studebaker wagon co info.and study the drawings.(Or watch the video 'Go kart steering explained.INCLUDING ACKERMAN THEORY. John wade,you tube.