I really like icons, and really think they have great uses. However, I see some suspicious activity going on with some “veneration of icons”, it looks more like worship at some points with some people, and some people have healthy use of icons. What is allowed and not allowed with veneration? Am I allowed to not venerate them beyond a certain extent? I’ve also heard that we don’t treat them the same as Eastern Orthodox, is this also true?
Only if a person believes the icon to be God himself would your concern be well founded. A person's emotional response after erecting a Christmas tree might appear excessive due to memories of childhood, does that mean they worship the tree?
I'm an Orthodox Christian, and I too struggle with icon kissing. Trying to understand this more especially since I've started attending church again. Thank you for your explanations: they help immensely.
@@slavi7191 there are specific criteria if an image is an idol or not. And icons are not idols. Icons would be a problem if we had a general ban of images. Which we dont have btw. I can tell you more if you are interested. Greetings
@@Sendo664 I've read more about them since posting that comment, and it lines up with what you say. Thank you for that info, I appreciate it. All the best.
I think the big difference is we do not pray to photos of our friends and relatives and we have no expectation they will hear us or work miracles for us?
My deceased mother is in heaven, how dare you castigate me for believing she has better awareness of me than I do of her. I kiss her picture because she is my mother, not because I mistake her for God. Shame on you.
@@PETERJOHN101 I wasn't castigating anyone, I was assuming that prayer is for God and miracles come from him, but I would ask how do you know what level of awareness souls in heaven have of us and of what is happening down here - are there any scriptures you can quote to back that up?
Thank you, father. I am still studying these issues, and I think your videos have given me a much better perspective on icons. But my question is, if icons are not objects of worship, why does the Orthodox Church ascribe spiritual properties to them? If you say Orthodox know the wood and paint are not inherently divine, why do you call them "divine images?"
Because they heal people and cast off demons. Can Belzeebul cast himself apart? Wouldnt he destroy his own kingdom? This is what Jesus said, in answer to the phraisees accusing Him that He works with the devil.
And look how many people bow, pray,kiss images, called "icons."when its clear said in the Scriptures "worship only God" in many places throughout the Bible. You don't need any explanation from any priest. You will find all the answers in the Bible if you wholeheartedly search for the truth. God lives in the human heart not in paintings, icons ,graven images
@@asyamikula5757 numbers 21:9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Matthew 9:21For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. God does his miracles through objects and ppl
I was born protestant so their opinion will always bother the back of my mind at times but I really love the concept as icons and I believe in it because as a former heavy metal idolater, I utterly know the devil has his own icons in pretty morbid ways that obviously catalyzed sleep paralysis and "bad luck" God Bless You all
one question, I heard some Copts say that John of Damascus is not a saint for attacking the anti-Chalcedonians, or some such accusation. If this is true, then why is he named a saint in this video?
"Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them." Psalm 115
The way this plays out on a practical level is very dependent on the jurisdiction. However, if you find pictures of monasteries in Egypt for example, they are covered in icons as you might see in many Eastern Orthodox Churches
Do the coptics hold Saint John of Damascus as a saint? Does he not say explicitly "And we confess one Person of the Son of God incarnate *in two natures* that remain perfect, and we declare that the Person of His divinity and His humanity is the same and confess that the two natures are preserved intact in Him after the union."?
I have some questions. Why the Bible doesn't say anything about the face of Jesus Christ? Maybe because the apostles knew that we will make icons and this is wrong? Please, con you make a video answering to this questions?
Teo Dea Or maybe because the Apostles didn’t feel that it was necessary to describe every exact physical detail about Him in the Gospels? The Church uses icons of Jesus because our faith is centered around the Incarnation, and because God became incarnate in the flesh, we glorify His Incarnation (using matter for our salvation) with matter (icons in this case).
Hello Teo. Thank you for your comment. The purpose of iconography is not an attempt at painting the face of the Lord Christ the same way that an artist paints a portrait of a person - with exactitude and perfect depiction. Rather iconography is a testimony and witness to the fact that we believe in the Incarnate Word of God. As John of Damascus says "In former times, God, who is without form or body, could never be depicted. But now when God is seen in the flesh conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see."
@@teodordeaconu3221 Not everything a Christian does has to be Biblical. Christians don't live only by the Bible, remember that the first Christians (meaning the first 4 centuries, didn't even have a Bible like we know it nowadays). It was the Church who spread Christianity and Christian Tradition. Jesus never gave us a "Bible" or wrote any book. He gave is the Holy Spirit and the Church.
Do not call him Father read the Bible Matthew 23:9,10 and call no man your father upon earth; for one is your father ,which is in heaven. Read the Bible your self,think and ask God for wisdom not to be easily led astray by whoever .James 1:5
Maybe u should read the whole bible and u would understand how the word father is u used in the writing of the apostle paul. When i call him father it's not like How i call Our father in heaven father. Its completely two different thing u even call ur biological parent father. I call him my father spiritually. Anyhow thank u for sharing what you think is right
If you believe in your God Yeshua, you don't need Icons to forfill your prayers. Yeshua is an relationship and not a tradition, prayer or other missleading information.
Wrong, and I can prove it to you O holy one. Simply recall the New Testament account of the Pharisees' attempt to entrap Jesus using a coin with Cesar's image, in which Jesus rebukes them, but not for paying homage to a graven image. If the inscription of Cesar had been considered by Christ to be blasphemous, would he not have condemned its use for any purpose? Instead, he tells them to distinguish between what belongs to God and what belongs to Man. Unlike the Pharisees, we do not mistake legalism for piety. Shame on you.
People don’t treat pictures like people. They don’t rock a picture of a baby like it’s a baby. When the golden calf was formed waiting for Moses they didn’t literally think they’d made a god itself. Neither did they worship the cherubim carved on the ark. They worshipped the same thing the cheribum were carved to be worshipping. It’s also an exception that proves the rule. Being inspired by imagery is very different then role playing with them. You are making a distinction without a difference.
Ironically, you are demonstrating understanding of the difference and then saying there is no difference. We don't treat a picture of a baby like a baby because there is a clear difference between the picture and the baby. We don't care for a picture of a baby in the same way as a real child but we keep the picture and cherish it and the memories it invokes long after the child grows up. The people who followed Moses didn't sin because they made a statue; they sinned because they made something to worship. It would have been the same sin if they made a wooden ostrich to pay to. There is a clear difference. As you pointed out, the imagery on the Tabernacle under God's instruction was not idol worship because the images were not worshipped. The images directed worship to God. That's a big difference. There is clear and important difference in the distinction.
@@georgeargiriadis112 ironically you are misusing 'ironically'. The images are inanimate objects and don't direct anything. You're obfuscating what you're trying to say ie. that the cherubim were bowed down to or worshiped. The high priest did not bow down to the them. They bowed down to the presence of God himself who spoke from above the cherubim and ark cover (ie. the thing the cherubim were carved as to be worshiping towards also). There is ZERO instance of God approving treating an inanimate object like a person either directly or in a substitutive manner. Cherishing an object is not treating it like a person inherently or normally. More obfuscation. You're just trying to equivocate. You're trying using flowery linguistic wiles to hide what you're really saying to try and make it appear as something it is not. Rather than speak plainly and simply the truth which is the godly thing to do. I pointed out the meaningless distinction. Translation for you => it makes no difference to the God of the Torah or Jesus of the NT. It is not permitted and neither is there a scripture saying otherwise.
@@lukenick2299 I think I used the term "ironically" just fine you are simply refusing to understand the distinctions and differences being discussed. You seem to think your personal understanding is more valuable than nearly 2000 years of Orthodox tradition which, mind you, included the iconoclastic controversy in the late eighth and early ninth centuries. A great deal of time and contemplation of many church fathers went into exactly what the Icons are, how they are to be written (not a misuse of terms.. the term is in fact "written"), how they are to be treated, and (critically) the difference between veneration and worship. I'm skeptical that you are being sincere in this conversation. I don't see how you can clearly recognize, in your own words, that the hand-made images of the cherubim on the tabernacle were definitely NOT worshipped. I figure you must recognize that those same hand-made images of the cherubim were there by God's direct instruction. I also figure you must realize how the tabernacle was treated, i.e. the physical, hand-made object called "the tabernacle" was revered, not because of it's own characteristics (they didn't worship the tabernacle) but because of the presence of God. In other words, they venerated the tabernacle but they worshipped God. I'm still skeptical that you are being sincere here but I am curious... You said, "You're trying using flowery linguistic wiles to hide what you're really saying to try and make it appear as something it is not." What do you suppose I'm "really" saying?
@@georgeargiriadis112 Your response is an appeal to the authority whose position/opinion I am disagreeing with....a completely pointless exercise. Why pretend you can or want to engage in reasonable discussion? Revere != worship. But I can only repeat myself more imperfectly if you continuously ignore my points. The clearest thing you've said is between the lines; you have no interest in a *discussion* based on good faith, pardon the pun.
@@lukenick2299 I'm sorry. I don't think you are being sincere in this conversation and we are not getting anywhere. Veneration and worship are not the same thing. This is true in Christianity and Judaism; it's even true in eastern philosophies like Buddhism. You are free to equivocate in your own mind and practice, but you don't get to say that Orthodox Christians are idolaters. We are not.
5:57 "the divine images" I get your comparison to family photos but no one gets on their hands and knees to pray in front of a family picture and I'm not so sure people kiss pictures as often as you think. Even so, it's not an image designed to represent or depict God. You can explain it as much as you like, the Bible does not back what your saying. Also Jesus said, "you will call no one father but your father in heaven" yet you all expect to be called father. I'm not questioning your salvation but whenever someone cites articles other than the Bible to explain there worship get suspicious.
Without engaging in too much of a debate with you, perhaps you might be selectively reading things. Of course it was the Church herself who established the canonical texts of the Scripture and handed them down. It might be of interest to you to look into this history a little. Bruce Metzger's The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance is an easily approached text you could start with. Your reading of the words of the Lord dont seem to account for all the evidence. Otherwise why would St. Paul say to Timothy, "To Timothy, a true son in the faith" 1 Tim 1.2. This would presume he is Timothy's father. Or why would St. Paul address the Corinthians saying, "I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me. For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church." 1 Cor 4.14-17. - If St. Paul calls himself their father, having begotten them in Christ then clearly he understands the words of the Lord differently than you. Not to mention he addresses St. Timothy as his son once more. May God continue to guide you in your journey with Him in all Truth.
I'm not an orthodox but based on the picture thing brother, if you've been on a deployment to a war zone ever, you see this happen often. People put pictures of their wives, husband's, or kids, in their chest pocket on the side of their hearts, or in their ACH(or helmet) and will find them looking at the picture and kissing it or crying on it. You also see people do this who have lost children. My grandmother (a muslim) used to do this with the picture of her 3 year old that died from pneumonia. I am personally on a journey and have a million and one issues with sola scriptura and Sola fieda and come to this conclusion just from the Bible alone. However, I do struggle with the iconography. However, all of the apostolic churches use it. I doubt God would mislead his church for 1500 years for the protestant movement to say no icons. So its a learning process for me.
@@thebetterayesha7345 yea but they don’t rock the picture of a baby like it’s a baby. When they made the golden calf while waiting for Moses they didn’t literally think they’d made a god in itself. The authors defense of iconography is making a distinction without a difference
Wrong, and I can prove it to you O holy one. Simply recall the New Testament account of the Pharisees' attempt to entrap Jesus using a coin with Cesar's image, in which Jesus rebukes them, but not for paying homage to a graven image. If the inscription of Cesar had been considered by Christ to be blasphemous, would he not have condemned its use for any purpose? Instead, he tells them to distinguish between what belongs to God and what belongs to Man. Unlike the Pharisees, we do not mistake legalism for piety. Shame on you.
Wrong, and I can prove it to you O holy one. Simply recall the New Testament account of the Pharisees' attempt to entrap Jesus using a coin with Cesar's image, in which Jesus rebukes them, but not for paying homage to a graven image. If the inscription of Cesar had been considered by Christ to be blasphemous, would he not have condemned its use for any purpose? Instead, he tells them to distinguish between what belongs to God and what belongs to Man. Unlike the Pharisees, we do not mistake legalism for piety. Shame on you.
Do you know how many Protestants have crosses in their church, hang it in their car, wear it around their neck. But they condemn Orthodox Christians..that is pure hypocrisy.
The making of idols in the image of your God is wrong,we cannot compromise with that by twisting the scriptures to mean something else.making icons and images and kissing and bowing before them is totally wrong.
Nothing in Exodus about "worshipping them"...merely don't bow and serve...and its not just graven images but make no simlitutude or likeness...of anything... the bronze serpent was destroyed because they merely burned incense to it...nothing there about worship or even prayers... you saw no form...careful that you do corrupt yourselves by making images...PLENTY of forms were beheld by them...Abraham could have made feet that he washed ikons...Jacob a ladder icon as a necklace...wrestler figurines to play with ...Moses' a burning bush...EliYah's flying chariot of fire...cherubim for home and office...bronze serpents for retail...after all Joos could have argued "but you told us to make images" and yet NOTHING yes indeed His Torah became flesh which He gave us at Sinai...becoming flesh to DEMONSTRATE what He meant at Sinai...as our example...and yet He poised for NO Greek artisan to render Himself a portrait...a worship aid...window to heaven for prayers to pass through to their prototype...just as the nations around them did with their images "we know our god is not literally there but our adoration passes through it" "But but but He became incarnate so we MUST break the commandment" as if it is His fault...sounds like Eve who also saw what was forbidden to her as pleasing to the eyes "it was the serpents fault he made it look good" As for pictures of our loved ones...SO: would you have that picture of that loved one if they told you it was abominable...made them jealous...gave them allergic reaction? What if that picture didn't even look like them? But their enemy? Would you kneel kiss and stare at the picture rather than engage the person themselves in the room with you? Do we talk to the photo to speak to them? Pray to their picture for mediation even though they are dead? Paul taught the dead know nothing...as He taught they sleep...but resurrection day is coming...THEN they put on immortality...and we can speak with them again...halleluYah Since before Cain He has been insulted with worship of Him which pleases Him NOT... As we live the pagan will SEE our faith BECAUSE we live as He lived...love as He loved... you need "holy" tradition because you don't find it in scripture...were it in scripture it would not be your tradition... our faith is in that which we can NOT see...blessed are those that have not seen and still believe...it is hear and DO...not see and admire...worship in Truth and Spirit as He doesnt need temples even
Thank you for another clear explanation! God bless the work you are doing for the kingdom ✝️📈
I'm protestant too and this makes praise God. Thanks for such beautiful words about Christ.
Thank you for sharing your expression of faith with us. This is foreign coming from a Protestant background but very interesting!
Glory to God! Thank you for coming by and taking a listen. May God continue to speak to you through the content.
Asking your prayers
I really like icons, and really think they have great uses. However, I see some suspicious activity going on with some “veneration of icons”, it looks more like worship at some points with some people, and some people have healthy use of icons. What is allowed and not allowed with veneration? Am I allowed to not venerate them beyond a certain extent?
I’ve also heard that we don’t treat them the same as Eastern Orthodox, is this also true?
Also, how do icons dispense grace?
Only if a person believes the icon to be God himself would your concern be well founded. A person's emotional response after erecting a Christmas tree might appear excessive due to memories of childhood, does that mean they worship the tree?
@@PETERJOHN101i see your point, not all affection or expression is the same.
Thank you for this beautiful explanation using common language and easy to understand logic.
I'm an Orthodox Christian, and I too struggle with icon kissing.
Trying to understand this more especially since I've started attending church again.
Thank you for your explanations: they help immensely.
Read the book of John of Damascus which father cites in the video
Do you have a problem with just the kissing or the icon in general?
@@Sendo664 I am just wondering how it's not idol worship....
@@slavi7191 there are specific criteria if an image is an idol or not. And icons are not idols. Icons would be a problem if we had a general ban of images. Which we dont have btw. I can tell you more if you are interested. Greetings
@@Sendo664 I've read more about them since posting that comment, and it lines up with what you say.
Thank you for that info, I appreciate it. All the best.
I think the big difference is we do not pray to photos of our friends and relatives and we have no expectation they
will hear us or work miracles for us?
My deceased mother is in heaven, how dare you castigate me for believing she has better awareness of me than I do of her. I kiss her picture because she is my mother, not because I mistake her for God. Shame on you.
@@PETERJOHN101 I wasn't castigating anyone, I was assuming that prayer is for God
and miracles come from him, but I would ask how do you know what level of awareness souls in
heaven have of us and of what is happening down here - are there any scriptures you can quote
to back that up?
If you want see, go to Russia, and see the Vladimirskaya, one icon of Holly Teotokos painted by the Saint Luke Evangelist himself....
Great video, thank you so much for sharing
Thank you, father. I am still studying these issues, and I think your videos have given me a much better perspective on icons. But my question is, if icons are not objects of worship, why does the Orthodox Church ascribe spiritual properties to them? If you say Orthodox know the wood and paint are not inherently divine, why do you call them "divine images?"
Because they heal people and cast off demons. Can Belzeebul cast himself apart? Wouldnt he destroy his own kingdom? This is what Jesus said, in answer to the phraisees accusing Him that He works with the devil.
Father is in heaven Read the Bible by yourself Matthew 23:9
And look how many people bow, pray,kiss images, called "icons."when its clear said in the Scriptures "worship only God" in many places throughout the Bible. You don't need any explanation from any priest. You will find all the answers in the Bible if you wholeheartedly search for the truth. God lives in the human heart not in paintings, icons ,graven images
@@asyamikula5757 numbers 21:9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Matthew 9:21For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
God does his miracles through objects and ppl
because they represent divine figiures,
and besides that, Apostol Lucas was the first person who paint icons of Theotokos and Crist.
Barec more, What is the name of the song in the background? thankyou
I was born protestant so their opinion will always bother the back of my mind at times but I really love the concept as icons and I believe in it because as a former heavy metal idolater, I utterly know the devil has his own icons in pretty morbid ways that obviously catalyzed sleep paralysis and "bad luck"
God Bless You all
one question, I heard some Copts say that John of Damascus is not a saint for attacking the anti-Chalcedonians, or some such accusation. If this is true, then why is he named a saint in this video?
The music is really distracting thanks.
Does it clear in church can we worship the icon of Jesus or omly veneration?
No icons should be worshipped period. We worship Jesus, not a picture.
@@theofficialofgod180 then icons are not used to worship only veneration?
@Valentina Here ok
"Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them." Psalm 115
Care to give any commentary?
Thank you father very good explanation but I dont see much veneration of icons in the oriental orthodox churches like that in the eastern churches.
The way this plays out on a practical level is very dependent on the jurisdiction. However, if you find pictures of monasteries in Egypt for example, they are covered in icons as you might see in many Eastern Orthodox Churches
Спасибо
Do the coptics hold Saint John of Damascus as a saint?
Does he not say explicitly "And we confess one Person of the Son of God incarnate *in two natures* that remain perfect, and we declare that the Person of His divinity and His humanity is the same and confess that the two natures are preserved intact in Him after the union."?
no we don’t
This coptic priest called him “Saint” did he not? I doubt he said this carelessly. It sounds as though he has studied the saint.
I have some questions. Why the Bible doesn't say anything about the face of Jesus Christ? Maybe because the apostles knew that we will make icons and this is wrong? Please, con you make a video answering to this questions?
Teo Dea Or maybe because the Apostles didn’t feel that it was necessary to describe every exact physical detail about Him in the Gospels? The Church uses icons of Jesus because our faith is centered around the Incarnation, and because God became incarnate in the flesh, we glorify His Incarnation (using matter for our salvation) with matter (icons in this case).
Hello Teo. Thank you for your comment. The purpose of iconography is not an attempt at painting the face of the Lord Christ the same way that an artist paints a portrait of a person - with exactitude and perfect depiction. Rather iconography is a testimony and witness to the fact that we believe in the Incarnate Word of God. As John of Damascus says "In former times, God, who is without form or body, could never be depicted. But now when God is seen in the flesh conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see."
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers Thank you for your answer. I have an another question. Why the Orthodox Church prays for the deaths? Is it Biblical?
@@teodordeaconu3221 I often wonder this too.
@@teodordeaconu3221 Not everything a Christian does has to be Biblical. Christians don't live only by the Bible, remember that the first Christians (meaning the first 4 centuries, didn't even have a Bible like we know it nowadays). It was the Church who spread Christianity and Christian Tradition. Jesus never gave us a "Bible" or wrote any book. He gave is the Holy Spirit and the Church.
Great video and commentary
Thank you father.
Do not call him Father read the Bible Matthew 23:9,10 and call no man your father upon earth; for one is your father ,which is in heaven. Read the Bible your self,think and ask God for wisdom not to be easily led astray by whoever .James 1:5
Maybe u should read the whole bible and u would understand how the word father is u used in the writing of the apostle paul. When i call him father it's not like How i call Our father in heaven father. Its completely two different thing u even call ur biological parent father. I call him my father spiritually. Anyhow thank u for sharing what you think is right
Woowww
If you believe in your God Yeshua, you don't need Icons to forfill your prayers.
Yeshua is an relationship and not a tradition, prayer or other missleading information.
Wrong, and I can prove it to you O holy one. Simply recall the New Testament account of the Pharisees' attempt to entrap Jesus using a coin with Cesar's image, in which Jesus rebukes them, but not for paying homage to a graven image.
If the inscription of Cesar had been considered by Christ to be blasphemous, would he not have condemned its use for any purpose? Instead, he tells them to distinguish between what belongs to God and what belongs to Man.
Unlike the Pharisees, we do not mistake legalism for piety. Shame on you.
Do you not think people who use icons also have a personal relationship with Jesus?
I am not convinced. I understand you have to defend kissing and praying to icon's. Adorn your heart with Jesus Christ. That's all you need.
People don’t treat pictures like people. They don’t rock a picture of a baby like it’s a baby.
When the golden calf was formed waiting for Moses they didn’t literally think they’d made a god itself.
Neither did they worship the cherubim carved on the ark. They worshipped the same thing the cheribum were carved to be worshipping. It’s also an exception that proves the rule.
Being inspired by imagery is very different then role playing with them.
You are making a distinction without a difference.
Ironically, you are demonstrating understanding of the difference and then saying there is no difference.
We don't treat a picture of a baby like a baby because there is a clear difference between the picture and the baby. We don't care for a picture of a baby in the same way as a real child but we keep the picture and cherish it and the memories it invokes long after the child grows up.
The people who followed Moses didn't sin because they made a statue; they sinned because they made something to worship. It would have been the same sin if they made a wooden ostrich to pay to. There is a clear difference.
As you pointed out, the imagery on the Tabernacle under God's instruction was not idol worship because the images were not worshipped. The images directed worship to God. That's a big difference.
There is clear and important difference in the distinction.
@@georgeargiriadis112 ironically you are misusing 'ironically'. The images are inanimate objects and don't direct anything. You're obfuscating what you're trying to say ie. that the cherubim were bowed down to or worshiped. The high priest did not bow down to the them. They bowed down to the presence of God himself who spoke from above the cherubim and ark cover (ie. the thing the cherubim were carved as to be worshiping towards also). There is ZERO instance of God approving treating an inanimate object like a person either directly or in a substitutive manner.
Cherishing an object is not treating it like a person inherently or normally. More obfuscation. You're just trying to equivocate. You're trying using flowery linguistic wiles to hide what you're really saying to try and make it appear as something it is not. Rather than speak plainly and simply the truth which is the godly thing to do.
I pointed out the meaningless distinction. Translation for you => it makes no difference to the God of the Torah or Jesus of the NT. It is not permitted and neither is there a scripture saying otherwise.
@@lukenick2299 I think I used the term "ironically" just fine you are simply refusing to understand the distinctions and differences being discussed. You seem to think your personal understanding is more valuable than nearly 2000 years of Orthodox tradition which, mind you, included the iconoclastic controversy in the late eighth and early ninth centuries. A great deal of time and contemplation of many church fathers went into exactly what the Icons are, how they are to be written (not a misuse of terms.. the term is in fact "written"), how they are to be treated, and (critically) the difference between veneration and worship.
I'm skeptical that you are being sincere in this conversation. I don't see how you can clearly recognize, in your own words, that the hand-made images of the cherubim on the tabernacle were definitely NOT worshipped. I figure you must recognize that those same hand-made images of the cherubim were there by God's direct instruction. I also figure you must realize how the tabernacle was treated, i.e. the physical, hand-made object called "the tabernacle" was revered, not because of it's own characteristics (they didn't worship the tabernacle) but because of the presence of God. In other words, they venerated the tabernacle but they worshipped God.
I'm still skeptical that you are being sincere here but I am curious... You said, "You're trying using flowery linguistic wiles to hide what you're really saying to try and make it appear as something it is not." What do you suppose I'm "really" saying?
@@georgeargiriadis112 Your response is an appeal to the authority whose position/opinion I am disagreeing with....a completely pointless exercise.
Why pretend you can or want to engage in reasonable discussion?
Revere != worship. But I can only repeat myself more imperfectly if you continuously ignore my points.
The clearest thing you've said is between the lines; you have no interest in a *discussion* based on good faith, pardon the pun.
@@lukenick2299 I'm sorry. I don't think you are being sincere in this conversation and we are not getting anywhere. Veneration and worship are not the same thing. This is true in Christianity and Judaism; it's even true in eastern philosophies like Buddhism.
You are free to equivocate in your own mind and practice, but you don't get to say that Orthodox Christians are idolaters. We are not.
It's still wrong to kiss an Icon wich is NOT Yeshua. But the Icon or picture of My daughter IS my daughter. What you say is false and missleading!!!
Pixels or ink are not your daughter. There is a metaphysical dichotomy between the two.
@@chaoticway3795
He demonstrates greater love for his daughter than he does for Christ.
5:57 "the divine images" I get your comparison to family photos but no one gets on their hands and knees to pray in front of a family picture and I'm not so sure people kiss pictures as often as you think. Even so, it's not an image designed to represent or depict God. You can explain it as much as you like, the Bible does not back what your saying. Also Jesus said, "you will call no one father but your father in heaven" yet you all expect to be called father. I'm not questioning your salvation but whenever someone cites articles other than the Bible to explain there worship get suspicious.
Without engaging in too much of a debate with you, perhaps you might be selectively reading things. Of course it was the Church herself who established the canonical texts of the Scripture and handed them down. It might be of interest to you to look into this history a little. Bruce Metzger's The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance is an easily approached text you could start with.
Your reading of the words of the Lord dont seem to account for all the evidence. Otherwise why would St. Paul say to Timothy, "To Timothy, a true son in the faith" 1 Tim 1.2. This would presume he is Timothy's father. Or why would St. Paul address the Corinthians saying,
"I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me. For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church." 1 Cor 4.14-17.
- If St. Paul calls himself their father, having begotten them in Christ then clearly he understands the words of the Lord differently than you. Not to mention he addresses St. Timothy as his son once more.
May God continue to guide you in your journey with Him in all Truth.
Okay i guess I'm going to hell because I call my dad father all the time. When you call a priest father you aren't worshipping them.
@@TsaristCossack it means father in a spiritual sense not in terms of relation obviously
I'm not an orthodox but based on the picture thing brother, if you've been on a deployment to a war zone ever, you see this happen often. People put pictures of their wives, husband's, or kids, in their chest pocket on the side of their hearts, or in their ACH(or helmet) and will find them looking at the picture and kissing it or crying on it. You also see people do this who have lost children. My grandmother (a muslim) used to do this with the picture of her 3 year old that died from pneumonia.
I am personally on a journey and have a million and one issues with sola scriptura and Sola fieda and come to this conclusion just from the Bible alone. However, I do struggle with the iconography. However, all of the apostolic churches use it. I doubt God would mislead his church for 1500 years for the protestant movement to say no icons. So its a learning process for me.
@@thebetterayesha7345 yea but they don’t rock the picture of a baby like it’s a baby.
When they made the golden calf while waiting for Moses they didn’t literally think they’d made a god in itself.
The authors defense of iconography is making a distinction without a difference
Then stop selling this pictures of Icons, and give money to the icons and kissing Icons...
Wrong, and I can prove it to you O holy one. Simply recall the New Testament account of the Pharisees' attempt to entrap Jesus using a coin with Cesar's image, in which Jesus rebukes them, but not for paying homage to a graven image.
If the inscription of Cesar had been considered by Christ to be blasphemous, would he not have condemned its use for any purpose? Instead, he tells them to distinguish between what belongs to God and what belongs to Man.
Unlike the Pharisees, we do not mistake legalism for piety. Shame on you.
This is hypocrisy, by far a VERY big sin!!!
What are your objections?
Wrong, and I can prove it to you O holy one. Simply recall the New Testament account of the Pharisees' attempt to entrap Jesus using a coin with Cesar's image, in which Jesus rebukes them, but not for paying homage to a graven image.
If the inscription of Cesar had been considered by Christ to be blasphemous, would he not have condemned its use for any purpose? Instead, he tells them to distinguish between what belongs to God and what belongs to Man.
Unlike the Pharisees, we do not mistake legalism for piety. Shame on you.
Do you know how many Protestants have crosses in their church, hang it in their car, wear it around their neck. But they condemn Orthodox Christians..that is pure hypocrisy.
The making of idols in the image of your God is wrong,we cannot compromise with that by twisting the scriptures to mean something else.making icons and images and kissing and bowing before them is totally wrong.
And still you kiss and bow to a black stone in Mecca.
Nothing in Exodus about "worshipping them"...merely don't bow and serve...and its not just graven images but make no simlitutude or likeness...of anything...
the bronze serpent was destroyed because they merely burned incense to it...nothing there about worship or even prayers...
you saw no form...careful that you do corrupt yourselves by making images...PLENTY of forms were beheld by them...Abraham could have made feet that he washed ikons...Jacob a ladder icon as a necklace...wrestler figurines to play with ...Moses' a burning bush...EliYah's flying chariot of fire...cherubim for home and office...bronze serpents for retail...after all Joos could have argued "but you told us to make images" and yet NOTHING
yes indeed His Torah became flesh which He gave us at Sinai...becoming flesh to DEMONSTRATE what He meant at Sinai...as our example...and yet He poised for NO Greek artisan to render Himself a portrait...a worship aid...window to heaven for prayers to pass through to their prototype...just as the nations around them did with their images "we know our god is not literally there but our adoration passes through it"
"But but but He became incarnate so we MUST break the commandment" as if it is His fault...sounds like Eve who also saw what was forbidden to her as pleasing to the eyes "it was the serpents fault he made it look good"
As for pictures of our loved ones...SO: would you have that picture of that loved one if they told you it was abominable...made them jealous...gave them allergic reaction? What if that picture didn't even look like them? But their enemy?
Would you kneel kiss and stare at the picture rather than engage the person themselves in the room with you? Do we talk to the photo to speak to them? Pray to their picture for mediation even though they are dead? Paul taught the dead know nothing...as He taught they sleep...but resurrection day is coming...THEN they put on immortality...and we can speak with them again...halleluYah
Since before Cain He has been insulted with worship of Him which pleases Him NOT...
As we live the pagan will SEE our faith BECAUSE we live as He lived...love as He loved...
you need "holy" tradition because you don't find it in scripture...were it in scripture it would not be your tradition...
our faith is in that which we can NOT see...blessed are those that have not seen and still believe...it is hear and DO...not see and admire...worship in Truth and Spirit as He doesnt need temples even