META is UNRELIABLE; Here's why
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- With the imaginarum theatre and the tough abyss runs in the recent 4.7 update, it is undeniable that characters like Venti, Seigweinne and Albedo are being overshadowed by Kazuha, Furina and Chiori. However, I do think that META is always changing, and the game will always release characters that are improvements upon the flaws of the older characters. Since Genshin is an open-world exploration game, it is understandable why they can't nerf/buff characters. As time went by, the once hilchurl-slime-absorbing Venti quickly got replaced by the META support Kazuha, who can bring both big and heavy enemies near him, providing better synergy. He has one of the highest pick rates for the abyss as well as wish banners, similar to Furina.
That being said, what if you don't have Kazuha? What if you don't have Furina? And is Albedo genuinely a loss compared to Chiori without his Best in Slot weapon? I personally believe that it is better for one to experiment with the characters,, and understanding their kit, so you can use other characters to synergize with them. Yes, one META character may be worth 3-4 other characters, but I think a game is really about having fun and experimenting, researching on when would be the best time for the characters to be used. I will be looking forward to talking about why the trials in Genshin are not a good assessment of whether you should pull for the characters, and why Imaginarum theatre is good for us.
meta is simple minded. It doesn't take into account context. The character's context, or the player's biases and preferences. There is far too much variation in player's values to create a "meta" that doesn't state its assumptions. So referring to meta for Genshin is like referring to astrology in real life. It's entertaining, but not useful.
I'm so glad that you understand!! Your simple statement summarized the entire bulk of my video. I agree with your statement 100%. Exactly, the context is so important in this case and meta is simply an assessment of the best buffers, healers, damage dealers in the abyss. Kazuha is meta but nowadays I use Wanderer and Faruzan to pair with my Albedo, Seigweinne Venti team (first half) just because Faruzan's buff is literally crazy honestly.
No, i dont think you have participated in any real meta discussion. your understanding of meta is simple minded. When meta is discussed the baseline understanding with non casual players is the current floor 12 of ayss as until recently been the only gamemode where meta actually matters. It very much exactly takes into account context, in abyss's where both sides are populated with bosses or freeze resistant enemies on both sides, ayaka's favorability drops. in abyss's that have alot of multiwave teams with flexible rots are considered more highly like neuv and arle who can swap out freely unlike a char like hu tao or cyno, or more simplified contexts such as largely single target or aoe abyss. A players bias shouldn't come into account in proper meta discussion, if it does then they're proly a casual or just have an agenda. The meta is very much real there are teams who without context will always do better than other teams and in context do better or worse. Your either new to meta discussion as a whole or the people your listening to arnt meta players at all and are just casuals with egos.
Meta doesnt mean your only option. It’s just the best option. I clear abbys with amber that doesn’t mean shes good.
I can understand where you're coming from, and you're making a valid point! However, I do think that you being able to clear the abyss with Amber is actually a good testament of her strength! Maybe she can't get you 36*, but that means your Amber is good enough to meet the minimum requirements to clear 12-3. And hey, in your profile, they do show you clearing 12-3 if you cleared it with or without all 9 stars, and I think that's what this video is exactly about. Amber may not be the best, but at the very least she DID help you clear the abyss, and that's all that matters. I understand some players would want the BEST characters. I think there's nothing wrong with that. I did say it's okay to get both meta and non-meta characters to have the best of both worlds. I also did say that since enemies and new heroes will always change the META, what is META now may not be META in the future. For example, a meta character against with an enemy with their 100% resistance would definitely face some pains. And I think that even if you can clear the abyss with these characters, telling others that they should not get the "less good option" just because they can't 36* abyss is pretty misleading and even borderline disingenous. I think everyone , and EVERYONE, should be allowed to play whoever they like without being forced to get the characters that everyone has. I would get Furina just because she is the hydro buffer healer I need in my team, instead of her being meta. I think wishing for the characters you need (whether it be meta or non-meta) is the best afterall. This is a game, and a game should be fun. A game may not be easy, but at the very least, players should be allowed to have fun, and if someone had fun, no one should diminish the fun they had (cus why would one do that even)
you mean either her scaling isnt good, or her purpose (either as dps or support) isnt good in **floor 12**. important distinction! meta helps very much only in floor 12 of spiral abyss. thats it. you can run around with who ever you want outside of it (and for most players thats literally all the game)
Congrats on making a video that hurts my mind, body and soul! Something has been written to get compensation, whole this is too long to fit in a single comment so a section of it will be in the replies
Response to description: the title “META is UNRELIABLE” doesn't make any sense when put under scrutiny, the only way it makes sense is to assume they mean meta to be referring to chars rather than the concept which doesn't make much sense when in the same desc they say “meta is always changing” their main argument tends to be meta is unreliable due to current meta chars having the likelihood to be powercrept in the future, but the existence of the possibility of a different future meta does not invalidate the current one.
While statements such as kazuha becoming more ubiquitous than venti, pushing him out of the meta are true, the rationale behind it is extremely flawed as they don't mention the dmg bonus given from kaz which is just as or more important than their differences in cc, they also say a nothing statement of “which provides better synergy which means nothing without context. Next usage rates are mentioned which typically are not indicative of the meta and closer to the wider casual player base’s perception of meta. In the second paragraph they go onto say “what if u dont have x char” which just isn't an argument, they state is albedo genuinely a loss compared to chiori which, yea he is. They then encourage people to experiment with chars as if that's not what people have already done and as if through experimentation isn't how metas are developed and discovered. And lastly they attempt to imprint their own views and values as the only way to have fun.
1:45 Yes, enemy lineups no longer allow venti to trivialize the game like in 1.0. But that isn’t what meta is. Meta is the best characters and team comps that make 36 starring abyss as simple as possible. What you actually mean is that the game no longer throws him a bone with light enemies, which is caused him to lose his meta status because he works inconsistently
3:10 You are at a disadvantage WITH venti more often than not because he barely functions against most enemies now, and having a burst reliant character in overworld is just a bad decision.
3:15 No one has ever considered sucrose a venti substitute since probably 3.0 at the latest, the fight is sucrose vs kazuha for a reason. Venti is
3:20 She actually does do it more consistently, her skill while being much weaker works more consistently and can be aimed easier for more accurate grouping, and her access so sacrificial fragments means more grouping, which I’ll get into with my next point.
3:28 ????????? There isn’t a single catalyst that buffs allies' energy recharge, and if we’re being generous and assume you mean generating energy through particles, literally every other character can do that with and without the favonius weapon series. Her being a catalyst DOES give her access to actual supportive weapons like hakushin ring, ttds, prototype amber, and fruit of fulfillment. You mention her c6 burst buff but that only work for one element and you completely ignore her most powerful ability of buffing other characters EM.
3:46 This is just flat wrong, sucrose is better than venti by a clear mile, and has been for years at this point,
3:55 Welcome to building team comps 101, but it isn’t that simple, if it were that simple, you wouldn’t be making a video on meta, would you?
4:30 Kazuha on the flute, do you know what he does? (you do because you state what he does later in the video and read the descriptions, though you do screw that up multiple times later so who knows) THE FLUTE GIVES ATK, AND KAZUHA NEEDS EM. luckily for you there is a craftable weapon that gives EM.
4:55 No it does not, yes they both infuse, but they do completely different things
5:30 See?
5:57 nope, not nearly enough damage to be put in that category
7:30 one hits once, the other more times
12:40 logic can be spread to every character
15:48 No amount of mitigating Venti's flaws can make him even come close to kazuha's versatility you're just dreaming.
16:40 You just don’t use venti in single target because it doesn’t work, burst doesn’t swirl pyro at all
16:40 the reason you're missing venti's elemental burst absorption is that you're doing a terrible job at spacing his black hole so that i can actually make contact with the element
17:13 you say that as if kazuha needs to be kissing the opponents to hit them with his skill. His skill has great aoe on its own and can drag farther enemies towards him if you hold it (though if you actually knew what you were doing you'd have no need for it most of the time.
17:35 If you don’t need the buff, why use venti at all? Him not doing anything is a Venti problem (large problem, venti like the starbucks size and its ventis problem, double entendre)
17:42 With all due respect, taking that long amount of time to clear an overworld boss is not good damage.
17:53 the abyss is literally the only thing worth having a META built upon because the rest of the game is easy. and yes while it does change constantly there has never been a time where certain characters who were great in 1 abyss become useless in the following abyss. This is why the meta is always changing, which is a good thing.
18:24 That's the point, if it was the same enemies every time there would be no point to have different characters and teams built, which is a bad thing in a gacha collection game.
20:10 it’s floor 8 you’re not expected to have insane damage. And yet kazuha is STILL better than venti in this case due to his immediate grouping capabilities and better ability to swirl shields.
20:20 showcasing poorly built characters and bad teams clearing against floor 8 which people clear by the time they are AR 35-40 doesn’t prove anything against the way META is evaluated in this game.
23:26 “There’s no real meta for this” IT’S FLOOR 8 OF THE ABYSS PEOPLE DON’T STRUGGLE WITH IT SO NOONE CONSIDERS IT FOR THE META. also lvl 70 enemies, the level cap for the player is 20 higher than this
27:40 these entire rant on enemies doesn’t understand the purpose of the way each enemy is designed, they all have a specific strategy and weakness they want you to use and you’re punished if you don’t abuse it, it’s good good, albeit annoying, enemy design
29:20 No you can’t, just giving a character more damage does nothing when they don’t work against whats in front of them.
29:30 What do you want here, this isn’t dark souls, the only thing they can do is make it a time trial, which in the case of chamber 1 first side gives you unique challenges with the fact you have to defeat the waves outside of the standard 20 second rotations.
29:40 ignoring the abomination that is the team, ITS ALMOST LIKE THE GOAL IS TO KILL ENEMIES, AND BIG DAMAGE KILLS THE ENEMIES
32:10 Kazuha does not have attack buffs
32:35 This might not be a complaint but still, it’s almost like the no revives thing IS PART OF THE POINT OF THE ABYSS
32:45 You can in fact heal in the abyss, and once again I say, WHAT DO YOU WANT
33:45 Builds issue, just get better builds. Constant reactions means literally nothing if they don’t do damage
continued in replies
CONTINUED
34:20 It’s almost like that's the point of a rotating lineup
34:40 No it won’t?!? It’s an enemy with a cryo resistance and a core you need to break.
Why would you ever assume he could move giant vishaps? Especially when you’ve used him?
35:10 ????????????? Look in the mirror and say this to yourself. What is going on in your mind? Your overworld thing means nothing either because the faster you kill something, THE BETTER. You swapped to a weaker character just to use your built ones because it was taking too long.
37:05 No you don’t it gives you light charges if you don’t have any.
38:20 why are you fighting a boss with it’s immunity ever, and it’s common sense not to use cryo against a cryo boss
41:40 What? What could possibly be a more reliable way of determining characters power than against the hardest enemies, and because your builds are the worst I’ve ever seen you wouldn’t know this, but resistances don’t mean much in the face of actual investment and good builds and teams.
44:45 What does Venti’s state when released have to do with anything now involving CURRENT meta?
46:00 kazuha is meta because of is utility not is ability to solo bosses, characters aren't analyzed in a vacuum there are 4 slots in the team, his dmg bonus is still going to be useful for most of the fight if your playing a char that has a swirlable element and benefits from dmg bonus
46:37 if u equip artifacts and play a good team not even a meta one u should be fine
48:15 Wrong, there are genuinely bad characters, Kaveh, Ningguang, Freminet, etc.
48:23 ……………….. I really shouldn’t have to say anything here
Move the description and stuff to the top
48:45 this entire “example” is useless because it’s against a hydro immune enemy comparing two hydro units but you only count the immunity against Furina???? Albedo doesn’t do damage because of the crystallize reaction but because it’s not hydro.
51:45 What the hell is an energy recharge team?????? Why would you have two healers on a team??
52:05 ?????? Idk if you noticed, but every healer can heal themselves. Even when they aren’t on field.
52:50 You make a point of specifying that you read the characters kits, you proceed to disprove this by misunderstanding what sigewinne does, and what other characters do whilst looking at their talents.
54:00 You make a point of swapping to a different weaker weapon on sigewinne to show that her healing doesn’t change while knowing that her healing scales off hp and this wouldn’t do anything, whats the point?
1:00:50 Ah yes, you don’t see damage because she requires characters to do damage.
1:03:37 Overworld content is supposed to be easy, and the fact that you choose not to play meta in an environment where meta isn't as necessitated doesn't invalidate meta in parts of the game where it is more wanted
1:05:09: why would Sigewiend be paired with tao and make tao really good, tao wants her hp to be low and has ways to heal inside her kit, sige only serves to give a char who doesn't want or need healing, sige offers no buffs to compensate for the dmg bonus hu tao has lost, the only conceivable benefit from sige is her hydro ap, which gets painfully outclassed by xingqiu and yelan who can sustain taos vapes on their own. Secondly yes xiao depleted health so has some inherent wants for healing but healing with no other buffs is not enough to justify sige’s place especially since there are 4*s like bennet who heal and give attack buffs to xiao who greatly appreciates it due to his high dmg bonus saturation and no in kit stat steroid but also chars like xianyun exist too who also heal and have actual synergy with him. Putting sige with xiao is not a “major buff”
1:05:37 Sige only buffs off-field party members damage bonus, the tallent description is right in front of you just read it
1:06:19 venti or kaz shouldnt be considered over faruzan in the first place, venti makes xiao miss plunges and kazuha cant buff xiao,
1:06:50 again the kit is right in front of you she gives anemo dmg bonus to your team
1:07:13 sucrose also does next to nothing here as she can only buff elements she can swirl and shouldnt be considered over even a c0 faruzan, she also is no where near literally venti as she doesn't have nearly the same grouping and has way more buffing capabilities, just not on xiao
1:07:50 lynette has even less similarities than sucrose to venti
1:08:14 why are you replacing the xiao slot, before you were talking abt her being slotted in for the venti/kaz slot but now u also team of a bunch of supports doing 0 dmg
1:09:19 because its redundant
1:09:56 its not exactly people don't want to put them together its just there are a limited amount of slots on a team, putting a limited 5* with another limited 5* which is just them but worse is a huge waste of a team slot, but also the existence of chiori isn't what's stopping albedo from seeing meta play, it's just him being extremely mid even for his time
1:12:45 Once again, the kit is right in front of you, she doesn’t buff everyone, or anyone but herself for that matter
1:15:20 You didn’t show us anything that showed us how we build around characters, you just spouted stuff for an 1:16:16
Anyway tldr what are those teams go take a class or something
@@dovahnetch_DOVAHFAXX 🗣️🔥
preach
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Honestly regarding all these issues you've mentioned, I appreciate you taking the time to go through every single of my point, but the issues I've talked about here can be summarized clearly in one comment(pinned). I recommend you to go and read that comment instead because they managed to put out my point better than I did. Yes, I acknowledge Kazuha wouldn't be irrelevant anytime soon, but people like you are the ones pushing the fact that Kazuha / Sucrose is better than Venti just because of his EM buff. When I first used Kazuha, I tried him with EM but I didn't like it, so I switched to using him as a DPS/sub DPS instead. And honestly, I'm still gonna believe META is unreliable and you're not forced to get any character as long as you can deal elemental damage + break their shields. I did talk about it in the video. The next time you decide to attack someone for their work, you should listen . The whole point of this video is to prove why you may/may not need META characters, and why it is fine to have both. I already said it's fine for you to get both META and Non-meta characters to get the best of both worlds. I mean you may not understand where I'm coming from, but there are people who understand where I'm coming from, and that's all that matters. You can feel that my points don't make sense and nitpick before even finishing the video. It still doesn't change the fact that there are people who will agree with me. The whole point of Genshin is just to build your characters, remove their shields, and deal damage. It's seriously not THAT deep nor hard. Genshin is hard if your characters aren't built and you don't have the characters necessary to clear the abyss, but exactly like you said, META is the assessment of the best buffers, best healers, and best DPS. I understand that because I play the abyss too. However, you need to understand that new characters will arrive and whoeever is good now may not be good later on, and those who are bad now may be good later, because the META IS always changing. Even in games like MLBB, the once good characters becomes rarely used because of counters and different team synergies. Of course there will be characters that can counter all characters, but even they require good party members to work. Even in Genshin, your team/rotation actually matters depending on the enemies. If you have a cryo enemy, I don't think you want to use Barbara as your healer. There are different roles in Genshin for a reason.
If anything, the ABYSS is just end game content for hardcore players. I already SHOWED you that for Floor 8, you can pretty much use anyone but floor 12 is hard. I'm not sure if you even LISTENED and attempted to UNDERSTAND what I mean, but you do you I guess? I wouldn't recommend people wishing for characters JUST because of the abyss. I have friends who have META characters and still fell out of Genshin and sure that doesn't change the fact that META characters will be relevant for a long time, but it's fine even if you don't have them. You don't have to force yourself to clear the abyss if you don't want to, and I am gonna repeat myself but I DID say that you can wish for any characters you wanted, just don't push and force your agenda onto anyone. At the end of the video, I did say you can use Kazuha and Venti together because they mitigate each other's weaknesses, and how Kazuha is meant to be a balancer and NOT a competitor for Venti. 1.0 is just too simple for Venti mains, and so nerfing him to make the game more challenging is highly justified. Perhaps next time, try to keep an open mind and listen before you make any assumptions? My belief for Meta being unreliable will still stand because the enemies WILL change and new characters WILL be released. Again as I've mentioned, Mlbb also has META characters to clear rank the fastest and most efficient, but even the META characters would rely on team synergy, which is something Genshin ALSO relies on. Do you not know your game requires different elements to work?
Sucrose is a substitute for kazuha*
Venti has no substitute, he's the BEST at crowd control and energy recharge.
Sucrose and kazuha increase damage based on Elemental Mastery and shares this buff with teammates.
Kazuha does it better, since it also scales on his own atk and has an stronger crowd control than sucrose.
Sucrose is more focused on the EM, since her crowd control is based on her elemental skill and her burst scatter them.
Venti is still meta outside abyss, and he seems to be more viable to imaginarium theater now. Venti is anemo, and all anemo characters are meta since they can carry verisdiscent artifacts. Great video tho!
Generally, when they say venti is outside meta, they're talking about specifically 12 floor at abyss and his team compositions being focused on crowd control or freezing, that inst really what abyss focuses on.
But he's still the king of crowd control and exploration
btw it would be better if you wrote an specific script and resumed your points first, like
When talking about venti, show an clip of what exactly you're trying to say - be it crowd control or his swirling
When talking about kazuha show specifically an clip of what he can help but venti can do better - be it swirling slower than venti
That would reduce the video duration and make it easier to understand your points
@@HandsAnts Another viewer has brought in light for me to use a script, and I understand using a script would make things much better and easier to understand. However I would like to highlight that the reason why I do everything in real time instead of using a script is so that you'll be able to understand the different, specific scenarios I am talking about. I am also running in the game in real time while speaking which is why you don't see me pausing. It's meant to be something similar to a Livestream. Before I first made this video I actually wanted to show my struggles of using Venti, Albedo and Seigweinne but that footage ran for one hour and thus I decided to drop that idea. I think that in that scenario, changing a team and being able to clear the boss would be optimal. As for using a script, I do actually rehearse the video multiple times. The reason why I didn't also just use Kazuha and Venti in a footage to show their different CC abilities is so that I will be able to show you their different abilities while I am doing my commissions, leylines and boss fights. I know many content creators would make a premade footage first before posting, but that's not what I do. Before I post the video, I would try to talk to the AI which can reply to me as a form of rehearsal, and then record the video. If I don't sound confident or I die midst of the video, I would actually retake the video. I'm just thankful that this video is my best out of the 4-5 runs I have done. I know that a shorter video would save more time and that's why I ended the boss fights early on. Regardless, I will be sure to structure my video properly so that I know what I am talking about without my brain suddenly jumping from place to place when it happens. However I hope you will understand that I want my video to be a live footage as it is something I've always wanted to see myself as an audience on TH-cam and took it upon myself. I'll definitely cut down on points that exit the point of the video so that it will be more concised. I also think that even though a script is practical and mostly used, I'd rather memorize my points and share it like I'm in a live presentation. Again, my scripts are in the form of different rehearsals, but I just didn't write or read them out because I genuinely don't want it to be a premade footage with my voice behind.
@@HandsAnts Yes I understand that META is relating to the abyss. However, as I have mentioned in my videos, the Meta will always change regardless. Sure, Kazuha and others may be META now, but we never know if there will be a new character coming up that will be even better than Kazuha now. As I've mentioned before back then Venti was the meta of the abyss, but because heavier enemies have been introduced and because the challenges have genuinely been harder, catering to the newer characters and reactions (hyperbloom and Furina/Neuvilette/Arlechinno), we never know if the META will always be META.
Allow me to give you an example. Before the release of OP characters like Yin in mobile legends, Wan wan was genuinely meta, being banned almost in every single RANKED match upon her release. However, because she was so unstoppable and hard to counter, she was nerfed (you can check that video regarding wan wan out if you're interested) and now we have Yin, who can lock you in domains and for S31-32 of MLBB, Yin seemed to be like the meta. However, Moonton lately released a character named Zhuxin with unparalleled CC abilities that no other characters can really compare to, and now she is meta. So as you can see, meta is always changing. Yes, Venti wouldn't be replaced by Kazuha, but Sucrose's abilities is actually more similar to Venti than it is to Kazuha if you read their talent descriptions. I can understand how Sucrose is similar to Kazuha, but her E skill serves like a wind current to drag the enemies, just like Venti's burst. I hope you'll understand that META, even though it is to show who is the best, will always change based on the enemies. As I've mentioned before in the video, the enemies are not an endgame where they will always remain the same and you have to end this group of enemies. If that's the case, then yes, your points will make sense. However, you have to understand that as long as you've invested enough in your characters, anyone and everyone can be meta (unless they are faced with enemies with their own resistances, eg, Hydro + hydro, anemo to anemo). Again I acknowledge that characters like Kazuha/Furina/Neuvilette are META because of their utilities, but I think that a C6 Level 90 Faruzan would be able to do the same thing, or even better, so I think it's really more about studying and understanding your enemies than telling people that these characters are what you need to survive the game. It's just genuinely unreliable because the META is always changing and it always will in ALL games not just MLBB/Genshin/HSR. In fact , HSR is actually way more META focused compared to Genshin. You aren't forced to do the abyss after all, and again if you clear the abyss, even if you don't have 36*s, you still cleared it. No one can fault you for clearing the abyss without 36*s because it will be shown on your profile regardless. I understand your argument, but I hope you will truly understand my perspective. Yes I took a long time because I didn't just want to do a 9 minute baked video on why META is unreliable.
@@Chockitkat I mean you keep saying venti is out of meta, WHEN HE IS META. You're too focused on mainstreamers, but the smaller streamers like rintaichou focus on doing abyss with non-meta characters, and she aknowledges that some abyss are harder than others (since every abyss changes to whatever character has been introduced, such as if an GEO character has been intrduced, the blessing will be related to geo skills/constructions and the enemies will be heavier and stronger but with less in quantity.) Venti can still be used in ANY team on abyss, its just that he cant crowd control and this specific abyss (and like 4/5 previous) Venti couldnt be used anywhere due to the bosses not being in one specific place (Venti can be used against many bosses that stand-still) but that doesnt mean he fell out of meta (In other words, he got obliterated and nerfed which wasnt the case, the abyss simply shifted. The current abyss focus on normal attacks > Clorinde becomes the meta.
The next abyss focus on swirling reactions and makes swirling stronger > Venti, Wanderer and many other anemo DPS can become the meta.
Otherwise, he's just resting and you can still use him and 36 abyss solo him.
Albedo got "nerfed" because of chiori, specially her c6. I cant defend him.
But i think, specifically the anemo archon, will still remain meta and still one of the strongest characters in the game in question of swirling. No other anemo character has such an strong swirling reaction, ult time, ult uptime, energy recharge, crowd control and all this being in his natural kit.
Kazuha? sure, he has some swirling reactions but its not the focus of his kit, he'll buff more your main-dps than be a SUB-DPS.
Sucrose? sure, she can crowd control. But she's more focused on swirling like 3-4 times without constellations and thats it. She has an huge cooldown to all of her attacks (without cons) and ulthimately people just use her to buff damage overall.
Venti is more like Faruzan, they can be the DPS, Sub-DPS, Battery or straight up support due to their passives. Kazuha and Sucrose are more limited to their roles, while venti and faruzan are more limited to anemo focused reactions, which inst always on meta due to the addition of Dendro. Kazuha doesnt need to do swirling reactions to increase the damage, he just needs to infuse his ult to increase a bit of elemental mastery for that specific element (While sucrose will increase elemental mastery regardless, she just needs to use her ult) and Venti/Faruzan need to be paired with another Anemo unit most of the time. Not to crowd control or whatever, but because their kit allow anemo characters to do so much damage and recharge everyone ult so quickly. I'd say venti is an anemo raiden because of their natural damage and natural energy recharge.
Therefore, venti is still meta in many teams, but for specific abyss people rather use "meta" characters as Neuvillette, thats why streamers dont recommend pulling for venti RIGHT AWAY, because venti will not teach you how to play the game and you'll find yourself stuck in some situations where crowd control is not the usual, and to use venti in any situation you need to have experience with him and know boss-patterns to distance yourself and use the ult. And the other excuse about "venti fell out of meta" is that venti did get nerfed at inazuma, even specters couldnt be pulled with his ult, but they fixed that. that doesnt mean venti to this day got out of meta it just means that crowd control is an specific usage of venti, one that he excels but doesnt need to be abusing to be useful.
So, when you see a video about venti - They wont say he is useless, or that his kit doesnt deal enough damage. They'll say venti is not a priority like he was in the 1st version, but he can still be useful for you in many scenarios and is still meta (With the addition of imaginarium theater). Kazuha to this day is still meta ONLY to hypercarry teams, and if you dont have kazuha venti can still help you if you have his cons. Kazuha increases damage + Uses anemo artifacts which reduces the enemy resistance.
Venti slightly increases damage but is more focused on energy recharging + Can use anemo artifact.
To say Kazuha outdated venti is an BIG stretch, when people just use kazuha because his ult can be used as an bennet/mona/furina in teams that cant afford to use these three characters. Ulthimately its up to you to decide.
TLDR; Venti is still meta. Just not 'Meta' abyss for at least some versions by now.
Albedo is not meta because Chiori.
Sigewinne can be meta, too early to judge her
kazuhas buff doesn't scale off his attack though??
the clıck sound is disturbing pls Add audio after recording the video 😊
Okay, I will be sure to do that in the future, or research how to disable the loud click sounds! Cus I am recording while in the game, and it is more on time :) It's all done in real time (instead of the usual gameplay, then audio), but hopefully I can fix this in future videos
@@Chockitkat thank you
@@shui-lee7885 I really appreciate your feedback, thank you for putting it in a nice and gentle way. I will definitely fix this issue. I understand that it is a pain to have background noises and could distract the viewer from having the best experience. Would also address this in a future video so its a QOL on my own part as a content creator :)
META is not even a well-defined standard. it is just the majority opinion of people perceived as authorities, often backed by flawed mathematical models. when you realize the correlation between cup size and META rating, it all becomes clear
"when you realize the correlation between cup size and META rating" i think u should re-evaluate ur authorities
Exactly. I'm SO glad that you understand. In the first place, no one is forced to play the abyss, so telling people they HAVE to wish for a character just because of the abyss when there are other options to play this game is just wild to me
I prefer Sucrose over Venti
First 4 stars character from Noelle banner and solo Anemo character with Travel for 2.5 years
She only struggle in Abyss and combat events
Even I have Kazuha, I still use her for second Anemo CC
At this point, will continue with sucrose because I am loyal to my characters
Do you have a discord?
i would like to also ask for a method of contact for your vernacular views on the topic of meta perspective in the hit game genshin impact
@@geetistheonepulse really is everywhere lmao
@@oyfum2638 I do have it, but I'm not active
@@Chockitkat what’s ur discord id?
You just got a new subscriber! Commentary like this is my favorite kind of content, keep up the good work!! (also I didn't mind the mouse sounds ((if anything they made the video feel more sincere)) although I can see why others did.) :DD
@@GoldEnglare.33 thank you so so much! I'm really really glad my content resonated with you, and you enjoyed my live commentary where I do everything in real time. I'm also really glad you don't mind my clicking noises, and you're looking forward to more! My content is catered to audiences like you, and I'm so so glad you've chance upon my channel. Knowing that my hardwork has paid off really gives me the motivation to continue and improve my content!
Meta is "clicking"
I would like to sincerely apologize for the inconvenience in the video that would ruin your experience. I would look forward to improving the quality of my videos so that you will have the best experience. Thank you for your feedback
Holding click now lol neuvillette
Ur desc and ur vid only work when ur understanding of the word meta isn't correct, chars being good i the past and then no longer being good as well as different instances having different metas isnt meta being unreliable that's literally just the meta is a concept not rigid thing. But tbh after watching that little xq and albedo segment this might just be bait lol, although its 1 hour long bait so it took some effort. This is mostly just responding to ur desc tho, "what if u dont have x char" isnt an argument and its through experimentation that people have found the meta lol, venti still becomes relevant every couple of months coz an abyss so happens to work rly nicely for him, but ur also missing the part where kaz has utility in his buffing where's venti doesn't. This is proly the most casual video ive ever watched and u should like keep meta out of ur mouth lol, u can still enjoy the game but don't make a meta discussion like this until your more informed.
I mentioned about "what if you don't have x character" is because genshin ccs like to tell you to wish or not to wish for a character based on their utility, which can be misleading if they are just coming from the point of the abyss. And also, I think you missed the part where I talked about how Kazuha can indeed buff his teammates based on his EM, and he has an 200% ATK boost when using his E. I did go over each of their talents, and I even showed that Kazuha can quickly swirl the elements unlike Venti who took a longer time. I am not sure if you even finished my video, but making the assumption that I don't know the meta when I have been looking at the abyss rotations and the usage rate is inconsiderate in my opinion.
Yes I agree that meta is an assessment of the best buffers, best healers, and best DPS. But that is considering the fact that they are assessed in a time gated setting. Whereelse in Genshin is as timegated as the abyss and the imaginarum theatre? Every single character can be a good character as long as you build them correctly. In the first place, Genshin's enemies in the overworld isn't even as hard as the abyss? And I already stated that in my video that if the META is based on the fact that the enemies that don't change, and you just need to end them as quickly as possible, that's fine. However, new characters and new enemies are always being updated, with the new enemies being able to have elemental resistance towards certain characters. In general in Genshin, you just need a good CC, or damage dealer. If you don't have a good CC, a good damage dealer could actually deal the trick, because at the end of the day, you just want the enemies to die.
Kazuha is indeed good, and he is META. But C6 Faruzan can do the same thing. She can literally apply off field damage, and she is absolutely broken at C6. The only argument I would accept against this is that a C0 Kazuha is easier to obtain compared to a c6 Faruzan, and Faruzan only buffs anemo characters. That's fair. But don't forget, we have characters like Rosaria who also buff the characters based on her CRIT RATE even at C0. I have my Rosaria at C6, and with a little build, she will be an absolute beast. How would you say I am baiting when I literally use non-meta characters to see if they can work? How would you know I am uninformed if you didn't know that I play the abyss? If you said that I am making such statements without playing the abyss, that's fair. But I regularly play the abyss, and the ONLY reason why I can't clear abyss 12-3 is not because I don't have meta characters but because my characters are severely underleveled and their builds are not the best. I already made that clear in my video. I hope you will understand where I am coming from. There's nothing wrong with asking me what I mean instead of assuming I'm baiting. If I didn't know what I was saying, I wouldn't have mentioned that this game is heavily reliant on elemental synergies. With well built characters, a shielder, a healer, a buffer and a DPS, you can more or less survive this game. If anything, the most broken character would be one with omni element and counter every single enemies of every single resistance. Such character hasn't arrived yet, and every single DPS still needs to work other characters so META is still ultimately unreliable. There is a term called "COUNTER" after all
@@Chockitkat 1, usage rates are not indicative of meta, the only thing they show is how most casual players perceive the game, the fact u use usage rates as a measure of meta is alone enough to prove you aren't very into meta discussion. 2 when i said u didnt understand meta i meant the acronym meta semantically. 3 chars viability in abyss and theatre are the only ones considered when discussing pull value because its the only permanent game modes where doing damage maters, in overworld there is an infinite amount of time and food buffs that double your dmg + it's easily cheated and there’s co op so it isn't and shouldn't be discussed. 4 whilst it's true any char can be good as long as ur standards are low enough, and a better statement any char can clear as long as your investment is high enough (and u have 3 good chars carrying them) that does not in any way cause meta to just not exist. 5 faru does not do the same thing as kaz, i noticed that u also read her kit wrong in your vid despite it being right in front of u (u saying it gave the team anemo resistance when it does literally the opposite removing enemies resistances) but kazuha can buff 4 elements whilst faru buffs 1 with 0 overlap and doesn't have nearly as much cc, faru and kaz just shouldn't ever be compared lol. 6 i read your other comment when someone said cleared and u didnt automatically assume 36 stars it just kinda shows ur new to the game which is fine just don't participate in meta discussions until u have a much more solid grasp of the topic but if u did truely play meta teams and not teams u think are meta u would prolly be clearing with ur current investment anyway unless its literally lv 60 chars with 0 artis. You saying meta is unreliable still makes 0 sense, a char being team reliant doesn't make them unreliable like this statement particularly is so bad it alludes deconstruction. Finally I do get where you're coming from, i used to be a casual who watched people like tectone, mtashed and doro and thought I knew enough about meta to make vids like yours, u do have to start somewhere and u dont immediately start the game with perfect knowledge. Good place to start You also talk abt ML. chars like yin when he was oppressively meta, he still was pretty bad in gold lane as her would just get zoned by mm all game and roam would peal for the mm. Situations where the chars are bad r rly rly bad arguments for the char being bad in general and don't take away from them being meta in an overwhelming amount of other situations. Yin isnt an unreliable jg because hes bad in gold lane.I hope you understand how flawed your arguments are
@@alksdlaksdsdgd in the first place, META is an assessment of the best buffers, healers and shielders. Yes. But you have to understand that characters DON'T NEED a meta to prove that they are good. I want Furina not because she's META, but because she's a healer, buffer, and a DPS. I want Raiden Shogun not because she's META but because she's the electro support who can provide ER and off field damage. I wanted Kazuha because back then I didn't have a good CC, and Sucrose really just wasn't my playstyle. META just further proves that these characters are good, but these characters are good even without META. Even without META, I enjoyed using Kazuha because he makes life so much easier. But can I survive without Kazuha in the game? Absolutely. I can. There are definitely characters that cannot offer what META characters can, but they aren't META because META makes them META, but because their kit is just THAT good. META is simply a term used to describe characters with such viable kits, but you don't need a time gated challenge to enjoy these characters. If not for the lack of primos, I would go for Furina because I'm lacking a hydro healer buffer DPS, and that character just happens to be Furina. If Hoyo releases another character that can do the same thing, I would do it too. I wanted Lyney not because he's one of the best Pyro DPS, but because he is literally French Albedo, and I wanted him simply because he's french Albedo. However, upon learning how his kit works and actually building him, I realized that he's one of the best DPS for a reason. However, would I still play Lyney even if he was/wasn't meta? Absolutely. I would still play the characters I love because they are characters I love. I found Lyney's gameplay to be a tad bit troublesome but he was at least fun and challenging for me. I was so used to having characters like Xingqiu and Kaeya doing damage up close that I'm not used to someone like Lyney that requires strategy, and that's what made the game fun for me.
Regarding me being new to spiral abyss and 36*, I didn't choose to 36* the abyss not because I'm new to the game (I started in 2021) but because I didn't want to do the grind of farming for artifacts and wishing for weapons. I genuinely prefer building all the characters for fun, because this game is fun when you use different characters and study their different synergies and that's something I wouldn't be able to do in the abyss. I did manage to clear floor 12-3 once, but it was definitely a grind with my mid built characters. I did watch some videos on how to clear the abyss to get some tips,but honestly all I learned is that my characters are not built enough, and it's fine.
@@Chockitkat Ummm... I think you already nailed it then backslid. Yes, characters' kits being good does define who's meta. That's what meta means. It's not unreliable so much as it's an ever-changing thing because new characters always get released, along with new enemy types (the Venti situation). It's not that characters don't need a meta to prove they are good -- you got that backwards.
This video would've been more appropriately titled if you just said meta isn't necessary, owing to the fact that it really only applies to Abyss 12 and maybe IT as of now. As others have said, the game is so easy (out of those 2 endgame modes) you can just pick whoever you please and have fun. A case in point: my sister hates Furina and refuses to get her, but acknowledges she is 100% a meta character. Why doesn't she care anyway? Cause she never does Abyss 12 anymore. At that point, meta stopped applying to her way of picking characters, too. Doesn't mean meta stopped existing, though.
@@Chockitkat you not caring about a chars meta relevance is does not negate the existence of meta, every char at any investment is good if u lower ur standards enough and im not here to argue semantics. Raiden hasn't been meta for a long time lol and fishl gives the team way more energy and dmg strictly off field. But also i don't think you understand what meta is, because wdym without meta if they are among the best they makes them the meta like yk meta is an acronym for most effective tactic available right? also if u just play good teams you rly dont need to grind that much or have many goof weps and just coz u play good teams in abyss doesn't stop u from playing wtv u want outside of it, maybe if u did consistently 36* u would have had enough primos for furina and u can just play hyperbloom which basically doesn't need ur chars to be build at all just em mainstats lol. But your main argument seams to be that i dont want to play meta so meta doesnt exist which like i shouldnt need to tell you why thats just.. terrible. Please stop watching people like tectone and participating in meta discussion. If u did actually start looking for tcs for ur meta knowledge instead of casuals u would clear proly with ur same investment now and be able to get ur primos and get out and then mess around with ur fav chars who have 0 synergy in the over world (like ur xiao venti/kaz albedo and sige team)
"Meta is unreliable look I'm using venti" meanwhile uses Bennett and xiangling, one of the most broken meta combos since release. Also Barbara is one of the most nerfed characters in the entire game.
Venti is btw (and always was) meta. The thing that makes venti meta is multi wave small enemies combat content especially if they can be frozen. The only reason why he isn't talked about much is because the abyss is drifting away from it because venti exist (since Inazuma certain enemies have venti suck resistance that was nerved afterward like specter and all samurai variants) they put more bosses in abyss because venti and ayaka were just dominating everything. His constant fast application and swirls shred resistances so fast and reliable, his field time (with skill into burst animation cancelling the skill) is almost none and he regenerates like half of the entire teams energy with one go. While he doesn't give a huge damage buff like Kazuha, his constant suck has better grouping capabilities than the stun suck combo of Kazuha. When frozen stun doesn't apply but the suck does making venti the king in frozen teams. Furthermore Kazuha shatters frozen enemies when plunging, making it better to just fly cancel his skill (press skill and then double tap jump). Venti also deals a lot more front loaded damage than Kazuha. The only downside is that Kazuha can double swirl elements with just his skill and is a lot more versatile as frozen was pushed into being a niece with frozen immune enemies (bosses, hydro avatar blob thingies, abyss herald/lectern except hydro). (For double swirl you and your enemy need to have different elements applied and you need to hold his skill. Kazuhas grouping is better if you first burst and then use the skill as the burst staggers (or even stuns by making them fall prone) and staggered enemies have a lower suck resistance. Venti should have the thing applied in reverse with his skill and burst but as he Auto targets and has lower range it doesn't even matter.)
There is also the fact that meta characters like neuvelette can clear floor 12 alone, even with only 4* character and 4* weapons abyss is clearable. You don't need to use a specific character in this game as it is designed with casual players in mind. (If people are talking about meta, it is always how fast they can clear floor 12 and how much resources you need to spend) It's not that meta is unreliable, it's just not needed. The only ever hard (and hard) combat content in genshin are the local legends in fountain like Rocky. And the only combat content that needs certain specific character requirements in the over world is dendro cube (as far as I know).
Also I skipped a little bit through but you said "sigwinne is better than furina" that is not true. Sigwinne gives a flat damage buff that is less then a properly built geo opera singer to the on field character. Furina gives an unconditional 75% (could be higher or lower by a few percentages) damage buff to the entire party (both at the end of damage calculation)(with C1 it increases to 100% and c3 to 124%). But as furina does a percentage buff it is good for her to be at the end of damage calculation while flat damage increases want to be at the start of it (like Bennett). Sigwinnes heal may be good but there is no demand for that except in furina teams. The problem is that furina with Jean is just better then sigwinne with furina due to vv resistance shred and the healing being faster. Furina also does very high damage with her summons with almost no on field time and high uptime (and good hydro application) while sigwinne has a long onfield time on her skill and burst for no real return comparably. (It can be uncomfortable to be half health in the overworld with furina teams but that's why she has a healing mode) Bennett and sigwinnes don't really need to deal damage to function. Bennett just needs high base attack and burst level and the rest should go in HP (base attack comes only from weapons (not percent) and feather level). Both are sufficient as lone healers on the team. (I didn't look to much into sigwinne but with C1 her damage buff becomes worthwhile to replace Jean in a furina comp and with c2 it is actually better then Jean)
Chiori and albedo together is just about spreading your resources thinner as you need to farm the same thing twice (and you only have one cinnamon stick). Also chiori triggers with na while albedo triggers with any damage making albedo better with someone like navia (as pyronado triggers albedo) while chioris tomato has perfect synergy with Itto (because of ushi being a construct).
Also please cut down your videos, I'm like 20 min in and you haven't talked much about meta but only about how venti and Kazuha are different. Writing a script or something would really help to understand what you want to say.
I appreciate the time you've taken to create a solid argument to debate my points, and I can understand my long video may be a haul and grind to go through. However, I do think that you should listen to my whole video, instead of skipping parts in order to finish the video. I understand that doing a video non-scripted may decrease the quality of my video, but I did that so that I can prove my point in real time. I did do multiple rehearsals for this video, I even wanted to do a Seigqeinne-Venti-Albedo showcase, but I felt that that would be a waste of your (viewer's) time, instead of me explaining in detail the challenges in this game.
I understand using Bennett and Xiangling can be misleading. However, I have used them in floor 8, which i was able to clear without both of them early on. I only started using Bennett and Xiangling because of Imaginarum Theatre, and built both of them when I got them to C6 respectively, which is around AR58-59. I did NOT use Venti/Bennyling to clear floor 8 back then, but I have already forgotten who've I've used by now. I only had my first 5* which is Keqing and Kokomi, so I use them along with Sucrose/Xingqiu/Kaeya/Beidou to clear floor 8. I genuinely cannot remember anymore. I didn't get Kazuha until AR50+ so I don't even remember if I cleared it with Kazuha.
Regardless, I didn't address in the video because my video is NOT about WHAT characters to use to clear floor 1-8. At the same time, I have also used Xinyan, Faruzan, Layla,Xingqiu and Barbara for the feature of floor 8. Unless I have used Bennyling in floor 12, I don't think that my showcase was biased. Yes, I can use other options, I could run amber, Kaeya and Lisa, but I did have some challenges when trying to break the abyss mages' shields, and I did say that bringing a cryo is better. It's just that at that time, I didn't want to waste extra time showing you my non-built characters and you seeing me struggle, because that's not what it's about. The main point is to show that as long as you have someone who can break the enemies' shields, you are good to go. If I really wanted to show I am contradicting my own point, I would've used Bennyling in Floor 12, which I didn't. I also did say in my Bennyling 8-2 run that I would've done better if I brought in cryo, sufficiently proving that even with Bennyling, your enemies' strengths DO matter when it comes to breaking their shields. Because I didn't want to waste more time, I didn't rerun the team with a Charlotte/Kaeya/Layla, which I was REALLY tempted to do at the point of making this video. However, since I wasn't doing this video scripted, I had to go with the flow to show you my struggles in real time instead of hiding it behind a premade footage.
Also, regarding Furina, I have made another video on how I wasn't able to fully enjoy her benefits because the trial WERE using the characters benny and xiangling, who are already invincible on their own. I also talked about how I would want Furina, if not for my lack of primos. I really implore you to finish my video from start to finish. When you told me that you skipped certain parts to speedrun the video, I genuinely felt that you have missed some points which I have made in the video. For the "Seigweinne better than Furina" part, I DID say that she's better if you needed an auto target healer who can deal long ranged attacks. I did say that it is good for you if Furina could aim at the enemies BUT she cannot deal damage with her normal attacks if you're dealing damage from afar. I proved that live and real time with my Xingqiu.
So why didn't I make this a 9 - 30 minute video? 9-30 minutes was just not enough for me to show you my struggles and points in real time, which is why I made a 1 hour video. I did even end the bossfights without finishing them to save time. I have been waiting for the longest time for someone to make a video like this, but decided to take upon myself to do it. I am honestly grateful I didn't upload a video of these three characters (Venti, Seigweinne and Albedo) doing minimal damage while fighting all the bosses. THAT would have been a real pain that wouldn't have proved my point. Again, I did say I rehearsed my points, and I did. Whenever i hesitated, I would redo the video until I was satisfied, and this was my best run. I hate it whenever CC's are like "Please like this video I spent 20 hours on this" so I wouldn't do it myself. Again, I really appreciate your long comment, but I talked about how the META is based on time gated challenges where you can't revive yourself unless you have C6 Qiqi or Barbara. I do think you may have missed some points, and I could've ignored your comment just because you spedrun my video by skipping, but just because you spent time typing this, I thought I should make my rebuttal too. My other problems with this game has been addressed in my new video which I just uploaded today, so I hope you will check that out to understand what I mean. Once again, thank you for your assessment on my video, and for your long comment. I hope my comment makes sense too, and I will rehearse my points even more in the future, even if I have to make a condensed script. I don't think a script can do what I did in this video, and I am aware I don't want to repeat myself.
"It's not that meta is unreliable, it's just not needed. "
well i'd say its both, if the meta is only used/cared abt with floor 12, then its changing a lot. floor 12 changes, the meta changes. there are some characters that are eternal like kazuha, but ive even been seeing ppl say that he fell off a little due to dendro. besides the eternal characters (which is honestly could just be 2 archons and some dps's) no characters really stick each time. there can be go to teams, but thats more for the reaction or its that individual players meta (which is how we should all be playing lol)
im pretty sure meta has to be agreed on in the community too, if you step outside of minmaxing places, does the meta change again? does everyone agree?
the only agreed on chara's i can think of is: furina, neuvilette, nahida, alhaitham, kuki (hyperbloom), thoma (burgeon), kazuha, kokomi (maybe), hutao, xingqiu, xiangling (only with bennett), fischl, bennett.
thats literally it. theres plenty of characters that are strong that should be (or maybe they are) considered part of meta, but their praise is not as constant (and sometimes annoying lol) as the people on this list.
@@Chockitkat So you don't have furina but you still had the audacity to say sigewinne is better than her? "Sigewinne is better than furina if you need a healer" ah yes let us decide which unit is better by comparing two completely different roles and uses. If you're going to make a comparison atleast do it with ANOTHER teamwide healer in which case sigewinne is still just one of the worst.
@@lekoesicdid you not hear me saying that Seigweinne is good for people who prefer long ranged attacks like me? I already showed you how Furina has her limitations as a hydro sword, because she still requires you to be close to the enemies. However for Seigweinne, as long as you throw her E, she can just attack her enemies and heal your party members at the same time. I may not have Furina, but I've tried her in the trial, and I still went for Seigweinne because I desperately needed a hydro bow healer. I do agree that Seigweinne has her own weaknesses, but so does Furina. Seigweinne's biggest issue in my opinion is her cool down. If Seigweinne's CD is as low as Albedo/Bennett, and have higher ER charge without using her signature weapon, she would be good too, because she's a flex. Her bubbles are like a mix of Furina's healing and attacking abilities. Hoyoverse obviously needs to balance it so she's not too op, it's all part of the creation process. If Seigweinne had a low CD, high ER, and faster healing abilities, she WOULD be better than Furina, who drains your character's health in order to buff you. I may not have Furina, but I can read. Sure, I may have skipped Furina because I didn't have enough primos, but there IS a reason why I went for Seigweinne even while I HAD 70 wishes. And do I regret getting Seigweinne? Not at all. She's permanently on my team
@@Chockitkat The fact that you're pointing out this range nonsense just removes all credibility from you. The focal point of each of these two units aren't even remotely related to this "ranged" attack. And even if you want to argue that, Furina's pets have a large range that can cover basically the entire chamber. What does sigewinne do? She does no damage unless you're willing to whale on her and is purely a team wide healer. Her elemental skill "buff" is not worth wasting a slot as you can use other healers with greater utility. This is by far the worst metric in judging two characters' strengths I've ever seen