Judging by what we saw in the Squadron 42 demo the way the vandull utilized their fighters was that they used them to overwhelm the pdcs and turrets of the UEE navy allowing the heavy fighters and larger ships to disable the weapon systems of the orther ships. So i would imagine that capital ship battles would play out similarly to what we saw in the demo.
It's weird that they namedropped the Fortune, and showed the Guardian in a video, but...neither are for sale during IAE or even mentioned anywhere else?
All of what they said in this will change in 4 years when we get closer to this even being a reality because all the new money they're chasing will want something totally different than the people whose money they're chasing now want.
This is the biggest problem with CIG they never ask the question 'but why?' Players: Why are 2 capital ships or fleets fighting each other. What is the goal? What is the reward? CIG: The players will figure it out.
I think light fighters aren't supposed to attack a capital ship at all. But they are supposed to harass and kill medium sized support and combat ships escorting the capital ship to hinder them outflanking and damaging your capital ship no?
We have to be realistic here.....The plan has been since the beginning, on how to accumulate highest profits and just hyping up the tech demo and sharing concepts of plans, that might happen, but realistically the concepts of the plans, will change during the years, with very slow progress, if they ever get into the game that is! But creation of new ships for sale in the webstore, while nerfing old ones, to have people buy the new ships, is always going according to plan and highest priority for CIG! You are so right Mike!!!!! these two guys, would perhaps test some few things of the game, and either approve it or not, depending on, if it will affect marketing negatively or positively, like making the Zeus entrance narrower, in order not being able to for example fit an Ursa. They dont play the game, like we do.
yeah but you need to be able to target them individually then. it's so hard to hit them from far. almost impossible if you ain't lucky. even turrets what are way bigger i try shoot today on idris with inferno. and don't think i got even one gun from over 1km
@@protoni6996 Honestly I think that comes down to them needing to add more stabilization when using the precision shooting mode. It's difficult currently to aim at specific components unless everyone is moving at SQ42 speeds
They can, nominally, but the guns aren't precise enough or fast enough to do that reliably. It's not a matter of your aiming, it comes down to the geometry of the fight
9 years after backing this and im still watching these guys talk about years from now pie in the sky, its unbelievable. I cant even look at these guys faces without rolling my eyes at this point. "We plan to" "One day you'll be able to" Its to the point that its a meme of itself.
PS ...i always forget the guy on the rights name, but he always seems like hes being dragged out to say a bunch of shit he doesnt want to. Almost the vibe i get from Disco Lando, but more cynical. LIke "Right, time to talk a bunch of one day BS, fuck it! Lets get it over with chaps."
@@VeiLofCognition That's Crewe. He's the ship design lead. You can thank him for the poor design of all ships and the never ending backlog. I don't even get why he's on this show though. He has absolutely no say in mechanics or gameplay. He builds ships, which he can't even get that right, and that's it.
@@Cavthena Dont get me wrong here, im not judging the dude as a person. Other than to say that hes a slave to a paycheck it feels to me. It appears that it makes him a little unconfortable to go out there and talk bs, to his credit. LOL
not wanna get personal, but Ithink at this point, Tyrer has no idea what project he's part of... from the MM SCL where he said combat is all jousting, while now all thats left is jousting and that he cant fly the ships. The thing is, he is director and building every other space game... but hes not director of the "Best damn space sim ever"
I believe them that they believe they have a solid plan and are full steam ahead on that plan. The issue I see is that their plan is dumb. Everything they've described seems to be based on a Star Wars kind of vision, and they still neglect the geometric issues of space combat. I see this plan of theirs being an overall flop with the Star Citizen fans, because we liked what Star Citizen was and what set it apart from other space media. I feel a lot of people will just lose interest with yet another Star Wars experience with a different coat of paint.
I 100% agree that light fighters should never be able to go up against capital class ships and dage them, no matter the skill level or the time they have. My friend and I used to take down multiple Hammerheads and chain VHRTs while we were in a couple of Arrows. I also remember a few dudes went up to the HHs in Incursion missions in dragonflies, and took down the thing. That should never actually be possible. The regeneration of capital class shields alone should be greater than any damage smaller ship weapons can dish out. You should need to either team up to overwhelm the shields, or have anti-capital weapons/ships in your squad.
With large ship turrets, the turret is relatively stable to a light fighter. If they balance the turret rotation speed with light fighter maneuverability, then it becomes more even match between turret and light fighter. We saw this in early MM tests, where a Gladius could outmaneuver a manned Constellation turret due to turret rotation speed at close range (below 500m). Throw in a few fighters to focus down a turret and it’s a challenging but not impossible task for fighters to battle turrets. A few ways you can take out turrets in the recent flight models. Chaff clouds to mask signature. Fighter can manually hit turrets by walking their shots in with no targeting. Precision targeting mode as another option Out maneuvering a turrets rotation speed with normal targeting On Live, just cheese kite the turret range which they need to fix with the flight model tunings.
I think what's missing from their description of battle is death of a spaceman, ship repair, and almost more importantly all the markers you need during that type of battle. Oh, and also the limit on how many people can regenerate at a med bed
fighters are for bombers, bombers are for larger ships, and turrets are to help the fighters. at least in an ideal scenario, how it works in game will probably be different
I would guess they are trying to say that it is going to be like a WW2 carrier engagement where there are specific roles for specific type craft. The fighters to protect the bombers and torpedo planes from combat air patrol and maybe swarm the anti aircraft guns to keep them busy. The bombers to take out components and s to do damage to the hull. Numbers and speed are the advantage of the smaller ships against the turrets. You don't want to be rolling up on an Idris with a handful of small ships, you need enough to overload the defense turrets, they can only shoot at one attacker at a time.
How they talked about taking cap ships down sounds a lot like how cap ship fights worked in FreeSpace 2. Even down to light fighters chasing down torps. I don't know if Wing Commander fights were like that since I didn't play that series but even the Vanduul ships remind me of the Shivan ships a little more than the Kilrathi although I do see a couple fighters having vary similar shapes as the Kilrathi. If you haven't played Free Space 2 there is a heavily modified version of it out there.
A large ship doesn't take down the shields and then just stop. That big gun that took down the shields is now going to start ripping big holes in the ship.
Except cap ships are going to be super expensive to build and to repair, if your aim is to board and capture, which it almost always will be, you're gonna want to do as little damage as possible.
it will be, 99% of the time, people solo capital ships run into other solo capital ships and a group of solo capital ships tries to ramp each other to death
Maybe I just don’t know enough to be confused, but it seems pretty straightforward to me. This is where skill comes in. If one fighter can’t take out one personal defense system I would say that’s a skill issue. A large ship to take out the shields, a screen of light fighters to take out the personal defense systems, and then either medium ships to board the ship, or medium/heavy fighters to take out the components from the outside .
whats the point of the cap-ship then... when the fighters are still doing everything and by that description are even needed to bring the cap, Polaris as example, to its full potential... both sides will jst dont use them as their cost and the risk are just far higher than when every potential crewman just mans a fighter
But why would we need LFs to take out the defense systems ? Those same defense systems that are aimed primarly AT light fighters by the way. To me Heavy fighters and bombers seem way more logical for that role and I don't see why we would need light fighters in that role, they should get shredded if they get too close to a capital ship. To me the role of light fighters should be to defend capital ships against bombers and heavy fighters
Fighting capital ships should be about boarding, it’s to easy to simply attack its exterior, after disabling you really should want to board it to deal the killing blow
yeah u should be killing the PDCs and the Turrets, taking down the shield gens and then hitting the engines to disable it for boarding. issue is... its nearly impossible to figure out wtf ur subtargetting
Why would you ever need to board an enemy capital ship during combat? Dont' get me wrong. I'm not against the FPS aspect of the game, but you're just adding an extra layer of needless risk/player deaths on your side by sieging a ship that the crew onboard will inherently have the upperhand in. You don't need to be inside, like ever.
Ya no, boarding takes man power. Disable the ships and blockade um, random the crew and hull or clear the debris after for salvage. Only board ships you want to flip or take whole.
@@Tazytots you’d board to destroy, without boarding it should be disabling only. Then CIG can really penalize the destruction of a capital ship, make insurance or rebuild timers multiple days
Went out in a fighter and targeted turrets on the idris after shields were down. You can shoot the guns off of the turrets. When you get shot at move away recover and come back. Seems to work to a degree currently.
Yeah I don't see a world where fighters have a role in attacking capital ships, they don't have enough firepower to make a meaningful difference and they don't have the resilience to take a hit from the large weaponry. I think their role in large scale combat will be to defend your own capital ships by targetting opposing support ships and bombers who are a threat to your capital ship but shouldn't threaten a maneuverable fighter.
This is exactly how it should be. Fighters fight other small craft and defend their carriers. Bombers and Torpedo Bombers are the smaller craft that should be targeting capital ships.
They are talking the talk again. Lets see how it will be in the end. In my opinion a capital ship fight should be tactical, yes, but in the end, when all things fail, it should be like in Star Wars. Like Venator vs Seperatist Ship. But fighters and bombers (bombers are made for big ships or ground support) should have an impact too. This impact could be hard to reach to blanace it.
It can be as he outlines, IF players are willing to co-ordinate AND communicate states and intentions. But that kind of discipline requires commitment and subordination of one's own interest to the interest of the group as a whole. Pdc (cluster munitions should take out a PDC) shield emitter (taken out by cluster munitions/missile) and turret (taken out by missile/heavy ballistics) in that order, then find a way to board. Note, a layered attack using precision with a variety of fighter types working in co-ordination and under the cover of other ships. That's the way I see it, and I agree with you, we need to see what they intend DEMONSTRATED and proven in practice.
It's all just a bunch of theory crafting and is exactly what is wrong with the PU. People are fed up of the 'We want it to be like A or B' or 'We envision it to work like XYZ'. Every time I hear this crap I instantly ignore everything else they say because it's the same crap they have been saying for years and there's little to show for it. It's been over a decade of CIG telling us the same theory craft BS and the PU still runs like garbage and the gameplay they have continually talked about and sold us is nowhere to be found.
I'm just wondering about the general timelines - if we want people to move around ,reacting and trying different approaches to the battle, are we looking at like 30 minute engagement or something like that? If you're going to ask a large group of people to crew a big ship in a game with permadeath and put all kinds of perishable equipment, etc on there, then there's going to have a be a very real opportunity for people to decide if they want to either fight or decide to run for it.
AFF has battle scenarios where its capital vs capital, crew vs crew. And the process is similar. They should try to bring back theaters of war to let us test these processes.
I also think that if PDCs and turrets are supposed to counter fighters, then you can't have fighters being forced to fight it's supposed counter, there's a missing link. What I personally think is that there will be either a class of fighters better suited for this role with long range weapons, or loadouts that you can equip that are very bad against shielded targets but can do a lot of damage to turrets and PDCs in a short burst window, like dumb fire rockets or something similar.
So it sounds like there is some kind of weapon/specialized ship designed to defeat PDCs if the Capital Ship's shield's are down? Looking at the Squadron 42 trailer, maybe the role of the stealth fighters is to get close enough to PDCs to blow them up without the PDCs killing them first?
we also have to take in that this would need 60 70 + players on each side to be what they are talking about and this will only happen for very few players like big orgs if they take it the way it sounds but we have to see
Maybe for Bengal size, but for Polaris battles I'm seeing closer to like 25-40 per side if you include all roles (including ones that don't realltly have a true place in battles yet like medivac (needs DoaSM, which may not even end up being a thing given how med beds have been marketed so far--and honestly is a bit too hardcore for a game that *_NEEDS_* massive hordes of casuals to feel "alive").
Maybe because I've been playing Sea Power lately, but I get what they're saying with capital combat. The task is to concentrate with overwhelming force on different defensive systems.
7:00 I am not sure he was implying it becomes safe to do so, just that your weapons which were ineffectual against the larger shield could now do something to the weapon and shield subcomponents. It's still going to be dangerous to make that attack run.
they said that the polaris is a similar experience like the hammerhead but with bigger guns. the truth is tho the hammerhead has MORE turret dps than a polaris. remember when they said: "we are looking at upgunning the polaris so its not just a torpedo boat, it can hold its own against other capital ships WITH ITS TURRETS!!" I do because i own one and they lied. not only less turret dps than a hammerhead, we can also run out of ammo because we can not restock the bespoke turret of the polaris from the inside. so two big L's for polaris owners.
One question for CIG, what will you do to prevent Ares to just shoot capital ships from outside of their turret range and just gun them to death ? Multi crew ships are still just fodder to all fighters, we need to fix that first and foremost
They could thing about heavy fighters (so this would look like heavy fighters are meant to attack big ships and bombers should finish big ships while light fighters are securing all). This won't work...
One thing that occurred to me is that cap ships are going to be so valuable you'll almost never want to totally destroy one. But if you know you are going to lose it, what's to stop self destruct hit escape pods and kill all boarders?
in most sci fi this is stopped by boarders either getting to the engine to power down the reactor that the self destruct is overloading or fighting to the bridge to override the self destruct
you need this, because theres a difference between bringing 1 ship with 15 people on it, vs 15 ships with 1 person in it. With out this, theres no reason to even consider getting bigger ships
Light fighters should be anti fighter/bomber. Heavy Fighters and bombers should be able to lock onto these PDS, engines, and shield emitters with missiles as well as precision mode on guns/turrets.
Are they doing anything to make flying a capital ship feel like piloting a large vessel? We need some sort of different control surface and UI interface. I haven't heard anything about that in years.
It’s hard enough to get 30 people assigned to the same place in their ships let alone place “orders” for what targets to attack. The way they talk about fleet battles, you need NPC’s to hire. I don’t see the human element to this being fluid at all. It would be 30 people doing their own task while being in a discord with 5 of their closest team members. Like a bunch of dogs chasing tires at the end of the day 🥴
as a PlanetSide (both 1 and 2) enjoyer, it is 100% possible for an org to be organized to the level of actual military discipline, with some orgs being full of actual military veterans. The difference will be between hardcore (aka "the game is my second job" orgs) and casual. The hardcore orgs with strong comms discipline, responsibility rosters, and chain of command will win fleet battles 9x out of 10. In short, endgame/capital battles will be a sight to see, but only between sweaty orgs. Between a sweaty org and a casual org, the casuals will lose almost every time. Completely one-sided. The only exception will be when the inevitable streamer orgs start coming up, they will just brute force and steam-roll content with hordes of nakeds who will log in maybe just for that 1-3month span, and never again.
like they said you dont shoot a pistol at a tank, light fighters wont be shooting the cap ship, theyll be shooting other ships. a light fighter cant do shit against the enemy capital but it can absolutely dunk on the enemy inferno or ion so that ares will need to be escorted by its own light fighters. light fighter protects and kills heavy fighters and bombers and heavy fighters and bombers are the ones that actually kill the enemy ship. if your an infantry man against a tank, your job isnt to kill the tank, its to cover and look out for the guy with the rocket launcher
Im pretty sure that the main thing to take out turrets is just sheer numbers. Turrets can only target one thing at a time so if you are tasked with taking out turrets then i would assume you would be tackling it in groups. Someone gets the attention of the PDC or turrets and the other shoots who is no on defense. But i dont really see a sure fire way to actually kill a turret it might just be a skill thing at that point.
Why would you want to? They're so expensive, its a waste of a few hundred million credits (or more). You can steal it if you have the rep with "the council" [speculatively], you can ransom it back. Or if nothing else, you can salvage it, esp if you scan beforehand and can see they have juiced/upgraded components or an upgraded hull itself [also speculative, pending final implementation of scanning, and crafting/salvage]
With what was said, does that mean bullets won't ignore shields anymore? Otherwise why do they need the capital ships to take down opposing capital ship shields?
I don’t understand his turret argument. Yes the point of turrets is for light fighters but the point of light fighters is to get through the dog fight to cause damage to the turrets. It’s not like rock paper scissors where turrets always win. The whole point of light fighters is to do this and the dog fighting that occurs between light fighters is to prevent this from happening. You don’t just bring a whole bunch of light fighters so that they can go play in their own zone and have a dog fight for funsies. This is why you use a squadron of light fighters as well not just one because you know the turret is gunna take out some. Like this isn’t head cannon either you can compare it to D-day and bringing hundreds of troops to take out the gunners on the beach. It’s a bit morbid if a comparison but that’s just basic warfare tactics, you build redundancy in your light fighter group to take out key objectives because you know some will be taken out but it’s still their roll because it’s the most efficient method.
Them teasing the Guardian & the Fortune is insane… Here’s hoping that the rumors are true and they’re meant for sale in December, because they seem like really interesting ships.
@@critic_empower_joke_rlaxtslife Airwolf is as old as I am. Which is 40. The series ended when I was 3. Airwolf is someone else's distant memory. How much more so for a 20-35 year old?
The theory crafting of what fleet battles would be like made no sense to me. What was the point of the capital ships in the first place? They sound like they are obsolete already. Like battleships when the aircraft carriers took over.
As I understand it, capital ships are analogous to aircraft carriers. Polaris isn't a true capital ship in that sense, given its single, relatively small hangar. The Idris, Bengal, and Kraken are the only "true" capital ships. The Polaris, Perseus, Javelin, and Hammerhead are sub-capitals. I do 100% expect the Polaris to be nerfed, not because of marketing, but because it's too strong for a non-capital "capital" ship; unless they're just going to go buck-wild with the Bengal and make it be able to kill the literal suns. And then there's Kingships of the Vanduul that may exist in the PU; if S42 sotry/lore doesn't eliminate that threat... with something bigger/stronger. It seems they're using Polaris and such to "emulate" fleet battles to flesh out the concept and power balance/scaling. Which is actually the correct move. These things can ONLY be fully designed through significant testing due to the nature of its scope. The "Ultimate" ships (or powers/abilities in other games), are increases/additions to regular play since they are fundamentally designed to be limited in use, with those uses being instrumental/game-changing in their own right. Not everyone will have an Idris, and for the dozens or hundreds (however many there are that have been/will be obtained), not all of them will be able to crew it to max performance capabilities (we really do need AI blades; I think hireable NPCs is way too lofty for this side of 2030, without significant IRL AI advacements). Realistically, there is no actual reason to pull an Idris outside of combat, since it is specifically a combat ship from the ground up. What we [don't actually] need are "city sized ships," or basically an idris or even a Bengal, but non-combat. But we will [in 3-4 years] be getting our "housing/base of ops" needs met through planetary base building and the even-further-out, post-launch station-building.
On the contrary pds shooting ships should be allowed, pds doing any dmg should not really be permitted but in single hp digit per second. Point is to lure pds so the torp can fly thru.... Just a thought, limit pds target ship at most dangerous and shortest distance vs turrets effectiveness to it lure pds. Could be something? I had the fucking luck to do phase 3 several times. Idris pitch and roll way too much for a frigate, and speed increase or velocity too high too. Enough shield and hull hp to make it hard to take down. There are plenty of ways to make it better. Ion definitely ISNOT capital ship killer and its weapon mechanic sucked balls with such high repetition ion weapon use. Sentinel was something. I sincerely dont know if emp was doing anything tbh but I had fun flying in 30 meters off idris hull to drop an occasional 90 to 100% then run like hell before turrets take me down. Essiest to perform ok omnirole for phase 3 was andromeda. Can take down single seats. Not shabby at running away from idris with boost, most pleasant ship to use out of ion, and sentinel.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? Light fighters can help take out shields but then the actual armor will make them ineffective. I'm failing to understand wtf the point of armor is if the SHIELD is dependent on weapon caliber, but your physical ship pieces are not.
Capital ships need to be much slower and sluggish and light fighters faster. Thus having a chance of trying to engage subsystems safely by doing bombing or targeted runs.
You just need more fighters. CS Gunners should matter and LF too but to make turrets not doing their Jobs you just need bring more targets they can handle. There is no reason to make this type of battle easy to LF.
@@lss247 oh yeah people will love to be just one more meat into the grinder and dying like flies to fulfill a quota. Hard no. Both should feel impactful without having to respawn every 10 seconds.
They blew their wad releasing ships in the PTU. This IAE is boring af. They're not even releasing the Guardian, MISC Fortune or anything from Aegis. Meanwhile, the MISC Expanse and Odyssey just collect dust on the shelf. I swear CIG has ADHD. They start working on something, then move on to something else before what they were working on was half finished. They introduced data mining 5 years ago, made a few data mining ships and then never returned to the idea. They sold the Expanse for refining gameplay years ago and now they pretend like it doesn't exist. They sold a Carrack competitor, the Odyssey, then forgot about it, then sold the Galaxy as a Carrack competitor, then put it back on the shelf as well. This is why CIG gets zero $$$ from me.
"i'm still sitting here hoping" *coping. It's about cope not hope. When i see the state of the Polaris, with bugged turrets and turrets still having an as shittiest as possible field of view/field of engagement for most of them, i think this game will never be good on purpose.
To me Light fighters should have no place in Capital ship fighting. It should be a rock paper cisors. Capital ships shred LFs, LFs shred Bombers and Bombers shred Capital ships. Medium and Heavy fighter should be in the spectrum between Bombers and LFs.
You're telling me the richest people in the universe who can buy the military twice over will not put defenses on their ship because it's luxury? That makes zero sense
They keep on adding and thinking about stuff instead of actually working on the things that are still not in the game and keeping that backlog alive I guess and the shills on their leash.
I'm all for the "hunt for the Bismark" style capital ship combat, but this sounds SO far fetched. This requires dozens of players fighting in an organized matter and also ignores the whale in the room (pun intended) - this makes capital ships unkillable behemoths unless there is really organized and prepared opposition. If you ever played WoW in a PvP server, you know what a 5 men group of hardcore PvPers can do to a whole zone if they decide to kill other players (I was in a dwarf only guild that incaded Orgrimmar every time someone new joined the guild as a rite of passage), now imagine is capital ships are INDEED that hard to attack - they better be REALLY expensive to operate so orgs just field them in very demanding operations. More specifically, the fighters against turrets was actually kinda weak, but imho it's obvious fighters take heavy fighters and dive bombers and those other small ships actually attack turrets and other small external modules.
I just don't understand why they are talking about all this while the game can't event get something as simple as player inventory correctly. All of the stuff they are talking about will never be accomplished without proper command and control implementation and given their track record it might be feasible around 2124. I think the problem goes deeper though, the WW2 idea of spaceships is just boring to begin with.
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CIG: we want ship combat to be like a puzzle.
The puzzle: it goes into the square hole.
Big guns >>>
13 years and we are still theory crafting.
Judging by what we saw in the Squadron 42 demo the way the vandull utilized their fighters was that they used them to overwhelm the pdcs and turrets of the UEE navy allowing the heavy fighters and larger ships to disable the weapon systems of the orther ships. So i would imagine that capital ship battles would play out similarly to what we saw in the demo.
DONT. MAKE. US. WAIT. 2. FUCKING. YEARS.FOR.THE.IDRIS.
Yeaaah I'll believe it when i see it. They're just adding a whole lot more to the already decades long backlog. Again.
Yep, more hopes an dreams that are a decade away while we still fall through elevators.
It's a holy cig way! Talk more do less!
The misc prospector is most popular single operator in uea plaa plaa. mf it's only one 😂
It's weird that they namedropped the Fortune, and showed the Guardian in a video, but...neither are for sale during IAE or even mentioned anywhere else?
They are mixing in 4.0 stuff in these videos like the Carrack update in the previous video.
It's not weird.
This is par the course for the disconnect between devs, and marketing. We've seen this same dance for a decade.
All of what they said in this will change in 4 years when we get closer to this even being a reality because all the new money they're chasing will want something totally different than the people whose money they're chasing now want.
Good luck getting the 200 people coordinated enough to even have a battle like this.
This is the biggest problem with CIG they never ask the question 'but why?'
Players: Why are 2 capital ships or fleets fighting each other. What is the goal? What is the reward?
CIG: The players will figure it out.
I think light fighters aren't supposed to attack a capital ship at all. But they are supposed to harass and kill medium sized support and combat ships escorting the capital ship to hinder them outflanking and damaging your capital ship no?
We have to be realistic here.....The plan has been since the beginning, on how to accumulate highest profits and just hyping up the tech demo and sharing concepts of plans, that might happen, but realistically the concepts of the plans, will change during the years, with very slow progress, if they ever get into the game that is! But creation of new ships for sale in the webstore, while nerfing old ones, to have people buy the new ships, is always going according to plan and highest priority for CIG!
You are so right Mike!!!!! these two guys, would perhaps test some few things of the game, and either approve it or not, depending on, if it will affect marketing negatively or positively, like making the Zeus entrance narrower, in order not being able to for example fit an Ursa. They dont play the game, like we do.
@8:00 gunship role is removing turrets at range. They can tank/shoot from outside PDC.
yeah but you need to be able to target them individually then. it's so hard to hit them from far. almost impossible if you ain't lucky. even turrets what are way bigger i try shoot today on idris with inferno. and don't think i got even one gun from over 1km
@@protoni6996 Honestly I think that comes down to them needing to add more stabilization when using the precision shooting mode. It's difficult currently to aim at specific components unless everyone is moving at SQ42 speeds
@@protoni6996 precision targeting?
They can, nominally, but the guns aren't precise enough or fast enough to do that reliably. It's not a matter of your aiming, it comes down to the geometry of the fight
9 years after backing this and im still watching these guys talk about years from now pie in the sky, its unbelievable. I cant even look at these guys faces without rolling my eyes at this point. "We plan to" "One day you'll be able to" Its to the point that its a meme of itself.
PS ...i always forget the guy on the rights name, but he always seems like hes being dragged out to say a bunch of shit he doesnt want to. Almost the vibe i get from Disco Lando, but more cynical. LIke "Right, time to talk a bunch of one day BS, fuck it! Lets get it over with chaps."
@@VeiLofCognition That's Crewe. He's the ship design lead. You can thank him for the poor design of all ships and the never ending backlog. I don't even get why he's on this show though. He has absolutely no say in mechanics or gameplay. He builds ships, which he can't even get that right, and that's it.
@@Cavthena Dont get me wrong here, im not judging the dude as a person. Other than to say that hes a slave to a paycheck it feels to me. It appears that it makes him a little unconfortable to go out there and talk bs, to his credit. LOL
not wanna get personal, but Ithink at this point, Tyrer has no idea what project he's part of... from the MM SCL where he said combat is all jousting, while now all thats left is jousting and that he cant fly the ships. The thing is, he is director and building every other space game... but hes not director of the "Best damn space sim ever"
I believe them that they believe they have a solid plan and are full steam ahead on that plan. The issue I see is that their plan is dumb. Everything they've described seems to be based on a Star Wars kind of vision, and they still neglect the geometric issues of space combat. I see this plan of theirs being an overall flop with the Star Citizen fans, because we liked what Star Citizen was and what set it apart from other space media. I feel a lot of people will just lose interest with yet another Star Wars experience with a different coat of paint.
I 100% agree that light fighters should never be able to go up against capital class ships and dage them, no matter the skill level or the time they have.
My friend and I used to take down multiple Hammerheads and chain VHRTs while we were in a couple of Arrows.
I also remember a few dudes went up to the HHs in Incursion missions in dragonflies, and took down the thing.
That should never actually be possible. The regeneration of capital class shields alone should be greater than any damage smaller ship weapons can dish out. You should need to either team up to overwhelm the shields, or have anti-capital weapons/ships in your squad.
Just saying - I loved Airwolf growing up. That, Knight Rider and Days of Thunder were my JAM!!
Truth! Loved them too.
With large ship turrets, the turret is relatively stable to a light fighter. If they balance the turret rotation speed with light fighter maneuverability, then it becomes more even match between turret and light fighter.
We saw this in early MM tests, where a Gladius could outmaneuver a manned Constellation turret due to turret rotation speed at close range (below 500m). Throw in a few fighters to focus down a turret and it’s a challenging but not impossible task for fighters to battle turrets.
A few ways you can take out turrets in the recent flight models.
Chaff clouds to mask signature. Fighter can manually hit turrets by walking their shots in with no targeting.
Precision targeting mode as another option
Out maneuvering a turrets rotation speed with normal targeting
On Live, just cheese kite the turret range which they need to fix with the flight model tunings.
hahaha these clowns have no idea what they're talking about and even contradict themselves. The crap they're talking about simply doesn't work.
This year certainly feels more talk then actually doing stuff tbh
Just like this years Citcon.
@ 100%
I think what's missing from their description of battle is death of a spaceman, ship repair, and almost more importantly all the markers you need during that type of battle.
Oh, and also the limit on how many people can regenerate at a med bed
fighters are for bombers, bombers are for larger ships, and turrets are to help the fighters. at least in an ideal scenario, how it works in game will probably be different
I would guess they are trying to say that it is going to be like a WW2 carrier engagement where there are specific roles for specific type craft. The fighters to protect the bombers and torpedo planes from combat air patrol and maybe swarm the anti aircraft guns to keep them busy. The bombers to take out components and s to do damage to the hull. Numbers and speed are the advantage of the smaller ships against the turrets. You don't want to be rolling up on an Idris with a handful of small ships, you need enough to overload the defense turrets, they can only shoot at one attacker at a time.
25 years from now all this will maybe work. Same time when you will be able to call your cargo elevator 10 times in a row without any glitch...
Waka made the music for Starwolf! On point!
How they talked about taking cap ships down sounds a lot like how cap ship fights worked in FreeSpace 2. Even down to light fighters chasing down torps. I don't know if Wing Commander fights were like that since I didn't play that series but even the Vanduul ships remind me of the Shivan ships a little more than the Kilrathi although I do see a couple fighters having vary similar shapes as the Kilrathi.
If you haven't played Free Space 2 there is a heavily modified version of it out there.
A large ship doesn't take down the shields and then just stop. That big gun that took down the shields is now going to start ripping big holes in the ship.
Except cap ships are going to be super expensive to build and to repair, if your aim is to board and capture, which it almost always will be, you're gonna want to do as little damage as possible.
it will be, 99% of the time, people solo capital ships run into other solo capital ships and a group of solo capital ships tries to ramp each other to death
Maybe I just don’t know enough to be confused, but it seems pretty straightforward to me.
This is where skill comes in. If one fighter can’t take out one personal defense system I would say that’s a skill issue.
A large ship to take out the shields, a screen of light fighters to take out the personal defense systems, and then either medium ships to board the ship, or medium/heavy fighters to take out the components from the outside .
Or a gunboat to take out PDCs/Turrets
whats the point of the cap-ship then... when the fighters are still doing everything and by that description are even needed to bring the cap, Polaris as example, to its full potential... both sides will jst dont use them as their cost and the risk are just far higher than when every potential crewman just mans a fighter
@ you should watch the video again and turn on the sound this time.
But why would we need LFs to take out the defense systems ? Those same defense systems that are aimed primarly AT light fighters by the way. To me Heavy fighters and bombers seem way more logical for that role and I don't see why we would need light fighters in that role, they should get shredded if they get too close to a capital ship. To me the role of light fighters should be to defend capital ships against bombers and heavy fighters
@ jared brought up light fighter. Rich directly said yeah sure light AND heavy fighters. Read heavy fighters mostly from my impression
Let's start opening up the cities and content fill them. Prefer that than yet more ships.
But they need the money 😅😅
Opening up the cities begins in Q3 2028
Fighting capital ships should be about boarding, it’s to easy to simply attack its exterior, after disabling you really should want to board it to deal the killing blow
yeah u should be killing the PDCs and the Turrets, taking down the shield gens and then hitting the engines to disable it for boarding.
issue is... its nearly impossible to figure out wtf ur subtargetting
Why would you ever need to board an enemy capital ship during combat?
Dont' get me wrong. I'm not against the FPS aspect of the game, but you're just adding an extra layer of needless risk/player deaths on your side by sieging a ship that the crew onboard will inherently have the upperhand in. You don't need to be inside, like ever.
Ya no, boarding takes man power. Disable the ships and blockade um, random the crew and hull or clear the debris after for salvage. Only board ships you want to flip or take whole.
Ransom*
@@Tazytots you’d board to destroy, without boarding it should be disabling only. Then CIG can really penalize the destruction of a capital ship, make insurance or rebuild timers multiple days
turret:: rock
fighter: paper
heavy fighter: scissors
Went out in a fighter and targeted turrets on the idris after shields were down. You can shoot the guns off of the turrets. When you get shot at move away recover and come back. Seems to work to a degree currently.
Yeah I don't see a world where fighters have a role in attacking capital ships, they don't have enough firepower to make a meaningful difference and they don't have the resilience to take a hit from the large weaponry. I think their role in large scale combat will be to defend your own capital ships by targetting opposing support ships and bombers who are a threat to your capital ship but shouldn't threaten a maneuverable fighter.
This is exactly how it should be. Fighters fight other small craft and defend their carriers. Bombers and Torpedo Bombers are the smaller craft that should be targeting capital ships.
They are talking the talk again. Lets see how it will be in the end. In my opinion a capital ship fight should be tactical, yes, but in the end, when all things fail, it should be like in Star Wars. Like Venator vs Seperatist Ship. But fighters and bombers (bombers are made for big ships or ground support) should have an impact too. This impact could be hard to reach to blanace it.
It can be as he outlines, IF players are willing to co-ordinate AND communicate states and intentions. But that kind of discipline requires commitment and subordination of one's own interest to the interest of the group as a whole. Pdc (cluster munitions should take out a PDC) shield emitter (taken out by cluster munitions/missile) and turret (taken out by missile/heavy ballistics) in that order, then find a way to board. Note, a layered attack using precision with a variety of fighter types working in co-ordination and under the cover of other ships. That's the way I see it, and I agree with you, we need to see what they intend DEMONSTRATED and proven in practice.
I think it is interesting that Rich drops an entirely new weapon type to SC and nobody noticed at 6:55
I bloody love the inter adverts hahaha I so want them to keep it up. Adds character to the game. Fallout style.
It's all just a bunch of theory crafting and is exactly what is wrong with the PU. People are fed up of the 'We want it to be like A or B' or 'We envision it to work like XYZ'. Every time I hear this crap I instantly ignore everything else they say because it's the same crap they have been saying for years and there's little to show for it. It's been over a decade of CIG telling us the same theory craft BS and the PU still runs like garbage and the gameplay they have continually talked about and sold us is nowhere to be found.
It's what is wrong with the whole project at this point.
I'm just wondering about the general timelines - if we want people to move around ,reacting and trying different approaches to the battle, are we looking at like 30 minute engagement or something like that? If you're going to ask a large group of people to crew a big ship in a game with permadeath and put all kinds of perishable equipment, etc on there, then there's going to have a be a very real opportunity for people to decide if they want to either fight or decide to run for it.
this is the strat that john and rich laid out. 1 take down shields 2 take out weapons 3 board and overtake.
AFF has battle scenarios where its capital vs capital, crew vs crew. And the process is similar. They should try to bring back theaters of war to let us test these processes.
I also think that if PDCs and turrets are supposed to counter fighters, then you can't have fighters being forced to fight it's supposed counter, there's a missing link.
What I personally think is that there will be either a class of fighters better suited for this role with long range weapons, or loadouts that you can equip that are very bad against shielded targets but can do a lot of damage to turrets and PDCs in a short burst window, like dumb fire rockets or something similar.
So it sounds like there is some kind of weapon/specialized ship designed to defeat PDCs if the Capital Ship's shield's are down? Looking at the Squadron 42 trailer, maybe the role of the stealth fighters is to get close enough to PDCs to blow them up without the PDCs killing them first?
we also have to take in that this would need 60 70 + players on each side to be what they are talking about and this will only happen for very few players like big orgs if they take it the way it sounds but we have to see
Maybe for Bengal size, but for Polaris battles I'm seeing closer to like 25-40 per side if you include all roles (including ones that don't realltly have a true place in battles yet like medivac (needs DoaSM, which may not even end up being a thing given how med beds have been marketed so far--and honestly is a bit too hardcore for a game that *_NEEDS_* massive hordes of casuals to feel "alive").
Maybe because I've been playing Sea Power lately, but I get what they're saying with capital combat. The task is to concentrate with overwhelming force on different defensive systems.
7:00 I am not sure he was implying it becomes safe to do so, just that your weapons which were ineffectual against the larger shield could now do something to the weapon and shield subcomponents. It's still going to be dangerous to make that attack run.
Pretty quick upload, respect the hustle
they said that the polaris is a similar experience like the hammerhead but with bigger guns. the truth is tho the hammerhead has MORE turret dps than a polaris. remember when they said: "we are looking at upgunning the polaris so its not just a torpedo boat, it can hold its own against other capital ships WITH ITS TURRETS!!" I do because i own one and they lied. not only less turret dps than a hammerhead, we can also run out of ammo because we can not restock the bespoke turret of the polaris from the inside. so two big L's for polaris owners.
My bespoke turret seems to restock....300 shots per cannon 600 total
20:00 holy yappning
One question for CIG, what will you do to prevent Ares to just shoot capital ships from outside of their turret range and just gun them to death ? Multi crew ships are still just fodder to all fighters, we need to fix that first and foremost
They could thing about heavy fighters (so this would look like heavy fighters are meant to attack big ships and bombers should finish big ships while light fighters are securing all). This won't work...
Seems cool, lets see if theyll pull it off
One thing that occurred to me is that cap ships are going to be so valuable you'll almost never want to totally destroy one. But if you know you are going to lose it, what's to stop self destruct hit escape pods and kill all boarders?
in most sci fi this is stopped by boarders either getting to the engine to power down the reactor that the self destruct is overloading or fighting to the bridge to override the self destruct
4:25 layer by layer is all good but the idris will just press the I win button with a freakin railgun….
you need this, because theres a difference between bringing 1 ship with 15 people on it, vs 15 ships with 1 person in it. With out this, theres no reason to even consider getting bigger ships
Light fighters should be anti fighter/bomber. Heavy Fighters and bombers should be able to lock onto these PDS, engines, and shield emitters with missiles as well as precision mode on guns/turrets.
Are they doing anything to make flying a capital ship feel like piloting a large vessel? We need some sort of different control surface and UI interface. I haven't heard anything about that in years.
The PDC's work just like a CWIS, I don't think that was them showing it bugged, it going back and forth to a target is just like a CWIS
Was the prospector thing maybe to introduce the interchangeable cargo storage?
Capital ship warfare is so broke right now. A squad of Fury's can take out a Polaris right now lol
14:56 @saltemike I would absolutely love such scenario in Arena Commander for testing. What do you think ?
It’s hard enough to get 30 people assigned to the same place in their ships let alone place “orders” for what targets to attack.
The way they talk about fleet battles, you need NPC’s to hire. I don’t see the human element to this being fluid at all. It would be 30 people doing their own task while being in a discord with 5 of their closest team members. Like a bunch of dogs chasing tires at the end of the day 🥴
as a PlanetSide (both 1 and 2) enjoyer, it is 100% possible for an org to be organized to the level of actual military discipline, with some orgs being full of actual military veterans. The difference will be between hardcore (aka "the game is my second job" orgs) and casual. The hardcore orgs with strong comms discipline, responsibility rosters, and chain of command will win fleet battles 9x out of 10.
In short, endgame/capital battles will be a sight to see, but only between sweaty orgs. Between a sweaty org and a casual org, the casuals will lose almost every time. Completely one-sided.
The only exception will be when the inevitable streamer orgs start coming up, they will just brute force and steam-roll content with hordes of nakeds who will log in maybe just for that 1-3month span, and never again.
like they said you dont shoot a pistol at a tank, light fighters wont be shooting the cap ship, theyll be shooting other ships. a light fighter cant do shit against the enemy capital but it can absolutely dunk on the enemy inferno or ion so that ares will need to be escorted by its own light fighters. light fighter protects and kills heavy fighters and bombers and heavy fighters and bombers are the ones that actually kill the enemy ship. if your an infantry man against a tank, your job isnt to kill the tank, its to cover and look out for the guy with the rocket launcher
Im pretty sure that the main thing to take out turrets is just sheer numbers. Turrets can only target one thing at a time so if you are tasked with taking out turrets then i would assume you would be tackling it in groups. Someone gets the attention of the PDC or turrets and the other shoots who is no on defense. But i dont really see a sure fire way to actually kill a turret it might just be a skill thing at that point.
Once you have the bridge you can activate a self-destruct on a cap ship
Why would you want to? They're so expensive, its a waste of a few hundred million credits (or more). You can steal it if you have the rep with "the council" [speculatively], you can ransom it back. Or if nothing else, you can salvage it, esp if you scan beforehand and can see they have juiced/upgraded components or an upgraded hull itself [also speculative, pending final implementation of scanning, and crafting/salvage]
you could bring a Polaris and a fleet... or a fleet of Polaris... guess what will be more effective
Hammerhead and fighters.
PDCs don't shoot at large enough objects! What fighter is big enough?
None.
large objects probably means something like industrial ships/haulers, and other capitals.
Sounds like there is need for long range ballistic snipers to take out PDCs.
Railguns are not yet implemented aside from the idris rail... [Hopium]
With what was said, does that mean bullets won't ignore shields anymore? Otherwise why do they need the capital ships to take down opposing capital ship shields?
I don’t understand his turret argument. Yes the point of turrets is for light fighters but the point of light fighters is to get through the dog fight to cause damage to the turrets. It’s not like rock paper scissors where turrets always win. The whole point of light fighters is to do this and the dog fighting that occurs between light fighters is to prevent this from happening. You don’t just bring a whole bunch of light fighters so that they can go play in their own zone and have a dog fight for funsies. This is why you use a squadron of light fighters as well not just one because you know the turret is gunna take out some. Like this isn’t head cannon either you can compare it to D-day and bringing hundreds of troops to take out the gunners on the beach. It’s a bit morbid if a comparison but that’s just basic warfare tactics, you build redundancy in your light fighter group to take out key objectives because you know some will be taken out but it’s still their roll because it’s the most efficient method.
Them teasing the Guardian & the Fortune is insane… Here’s hoping that the rumors are true and they’re meant for sale in December, because they seem like really interesting ships.
Guardian literally said 4.0 lol. Fortune to my knowledge never got a release time frame tease. Its just a salvage prospector though, Vulture exists
how do people not get the airwolf sound reference?!
Because they are too young and have no idea what this TV show is.
@@critic_empower_joke_rlaxtslife Airwolf is as old as I am. Which is 40. The series ended when I was 3. Airwolf is someone else's distant memory. How much more so for a 20-35 year old?
I kept waiting for an Ernest Borgnine character to appear.
The theory crafting of what fleet battles would be like made no sense to me. What was the point of the capital ships in the first place?
They sound like they are obsolete already. Like battleships when the aircraft carriers took over.
As I understand it, capital ships are analogous to aircraft carriers. Polaris isn't a true capital ship in that sense, given its single, relatively small hangar. The Idris, Bengal, and Kraken are the only "true" capital ships. The Polaris, Perseus, Javelin, and Hammerhead are sub-capitals. I do 100% expect the Polaris to be nerfed, not because of marketing, but because it's too strong for a non-capital "capital" ship; unless they're just going to go buck-wild with the Bengal and make it be able to kill the literal suns. And then there's Kingships of the Vanduul that may exist in the PU; if S42 sotry/lore doesn't eliminate that threat... with something bigger/stronger.
It seems they're using Polaris and such to "emulate" fleet battles to flesh out the concept and power balance/scaling. Which is actually the correct move. These things can ONLY be fully designed through significant testing due to the nature of its scope. The "Ultimate" ships (or powers/abilities in other games), are increases/additions to regular play since they are fundamentally designed to be limited in use, with those uses being instrumental/game-changing in their own right.
Not everyone will have an Idris, and for the dozens or hundreds (however many there are that have been/will be obtained), not all of them will be able to crew it to max performance capabilities (we really do need AI blades; I think hireable NPCs is way too lofty for this side of 2030, without significant IRL AI advacements). Realistically, there is no actual reason to pull an Idris outside of combat, since it is specifically a combat ship from the ground up.
What we [don't actually] need are "city sized ships," or basically an idris or even a Bengal, but non-combat. But we will [in 3-4 years] be getting our "housing/base of ops" needs met through planetary base building and the even-further-out, post-launch station-building.
On the contrary pds shooting ships should be allowed, pds doing any dmg should not really be permitted but in single hp digit per second. Point is to lure pds so the torp can fly thru....
Just a thought, limit pds target ship at most dangerous and shortest distance vs turrets effectiveness to it lure pds. Could be something?
I had the fucking luck to do phase 3 several times. Idris pitch and roll way too much for a frigate, and speed increase or velocity too high too. Enough shield and hull hp to make it hard to take down. There are plenty of ways to make it better.
Ion definitely ISNOT capital ship killer and its weapon mechanic sucked balls with such high repetition ion weapon use. Sentinel was something. I sincerely dont know if emp was doing anything tbh but I had fun flying in 30 meters off idris hull to drop an occasional 90 to 100% then run like hell before turrets take me down. Essiest to perform ok omnirole for phase 3 was andromeda. Can take down single seats. Not shabby at running away from idris with boost, most pleasant ship to use out of ion, and sentinel.
BREAKFAST BURRITO GANG RISE UP
Airwolf. Wow.
I‘m a guy. And I never had to discuss six toilets with my friends. What has the world become…
it was just a cringe meme for the show... its not that deep
Shouldn't it be the other way around? Light fighters can help take out shields but then the actual armor will make them ineffective. I'm failing to understand wtf the point of armor is if the SHIELD is dependent on weapon caliber, but your physical ship pieces are not.
Capital ships need to be much slower and sluggish and light fighters faster. Thus having a chance of trying to engage subsystems safely by doing bombing or targeted runs.
You just need more fighters. CS Gunners should matter and LF too but to make turrets not doing their Jobs you just need bring more targets they can handle. There is no reason to make this type of battle easy to LF.
Yea capital ships need to be mega slow.
Would help the desync too, as seeing those huge ships ping about looks crppy
Last thing LF need is more advantages
@@lss247 oh yeah people will love to be just one more meat into the grinder and dying like flies to fulfill a quota. Hard no. Both should feel impactful without having to respawn every 10 seconds.
They blew their wad releasing ships in the PTU. This IAE is boring af. They're not even releasing the Guardian, MISC Fortune or anything from Aegis. Meanwhile, the MISC Expanse and Odyssey just collect dust on the shelf.
I swear CIG has ADHD. They start working on something, then move on to something else before what they were working on was half finished. They introduced data mining 5 years ago, made a few data mining ships and then never returned to the idea. They sold the Expanse for refining gameplay years ago and now they pretend like it doesn't exist. They sold a Carrack competitor, the Odyssey, then forgot about it, then sold the Galaxy as a Carrack competitor, then put it back on the shelf as well.
This is why CIG gets zero $$$ from me.
100%
11:30 its simple mike take the shields down and target the turret you want to take out and shoot it its simple mike
airwolf rip?? noice
People are actively testing capital vs capital combat right now. This is extremely relevant. Not sure why Mike struggles with this content.
"i'm still sitting here hoping"
*coping. It's about cope not hope.
When i see the state of the Polaris, with bugged turrets and turrets still having an as shittiest as possible field of view/field of engagement for most of them, i think this game will never be good on purpose.
To me Light fighters should have no place in Capital ship fighting. It should be a rock paper cisors. Capital ships shred LFs, LFs shred Bombers and Bombers shred Capital ships. Medium and Heavy fighter should be in the spectrum between Bombers and LFs.
Perseus takes out turrets or an ares
Are we just not talking about them borrowing the theme song from Airwolf and using it for their nefarious and entertaining purposes!?
It was a parody of the Airwolf opening credits.. What needs to be talked about?
@@Havoc_762yep, it was a cool reference. Moving on.
My takeaway is that the capital ship combat they are describing is what they have working in SQ42!
*feature complete* lol
@VeiLofCognition lol at least on the single player side 😁
Q4 2034
@@CHEESYhairyGASH tier 0
@@VeiLofCognition teir 0 arrives in the Q3 2031 patch
No one check? The Intro is a copy of the serie "Airwolf" from 1987.
This episode was just one big advertisement for whales. CIG garbage
890 Jump should not have PDC its military not for Luxe Stuff let it be then that you can craft it but that it is weaker then on the Rsi Polaris
You're telling me the richest people in the universe who can buy the military twice over will not put defenses on their ship because it's luxury? That makes zero sense
What r u talking about lmfao have u seen real life yachts that cost millions? The big ones all have "PDCs"
Airwolf music retake
They keep on adding and thinking about stuff instead of actually working on the things that are still not in the game and keeping that backlog alive I guess and the shills on their leash.
After this year and Citcon i just have zero excitement anymore for SC. I only follow Mikes videos.
Come on man, you're learning about the dev’s vision for end game. Jesus Christ, man. Open your mind.
I'm all for the "hunt for the Bismark" style capital ship combat, but this sounds SO far fetched. This requires dozens of players fighting in an organized matter and also ignores the whale in the room (pun intended) - this makes capital ships unkillable behemoths unless there is really organized and prepared opposition.
If you ever played WoW in a PvP server, you know what a 5 men group of hardcore PvPers can do to a whole zone if they decide to kill other players (I was in a dwarf only guild that incaded Orgrimmar every time someone new joined the guild as a rite of passage), now imagine is capital ships are INDEED that hard to attack - they better be REALLY expensive to operate so orgs just field them in very demanding operations.
More specifically, the fighters against turrets was actually kinda weak, but imho it's obvious fighters take heavy fighters and dive bombers and those other small ships actually attack turrets and other small external modules.
Hey Freddie
I just don't understand why they are talking about all this while the game can't event get something as simple as player inventory correctly. All of the stuff they are talking about will never be accomplished without proper command and control implementation and given their track record it might be feasible around 2124.
I think the problem goes deeper though, the WW2 idea of spaceships is just boring to begin with.
I can't believe they just ripped off Airwolf.. that thing better be f-ing amazing or this is blasphemy