@@HistoryHustle And I thought the Irish civil war was short. The political contention of our civil war was the pro treaty and anti treaty sides over the Anglo Irish treaty of 1921
At 6:19 I would say the beginning of the White Guards was totally different. The Finnish Jaegers were not in Germany by accident; they were a group of men that had joined the illegal Jaeger movement in Finland, the goal of which was to free Finland from the Russian rule. They had fled to Germany to get military training and experience in order to return to Finland and drive the Russian forces out by force. This was originally meant against the Tsar and Russian troops, but ended up being against the Finnish reds.
It essentially started as 'hunting clubs', to secretly practise shooting and training the people. Lots of gun smuggling along the baltic coast was taking place as well for quite some time until the the voolunteers went off to Germany.
@@jontti9530 Actually it started student unions late 1914. It was founded in The Polytechnic Students' Union building. And technology students were heavily involved in it. That is reason why technology students had special relationship with government for long time. Of course hunters where prime targets for recruitment.
My mother's grandfather left his family and fled to Russia after the Finnish Civil War and was never heard of again, I presume he was killed in Stalin's purges.
That might be the case. I just reacently found out lot of my family lineage went to america because they were kinda like the peasant "torppari" class, and from that side of family lot of fought on side of the reds i think, but they went there before the civil war, and to my understanding that was often the case people who went to america was to improve their life. It kinda explains why socialist sentiment was strong in finnish americans they were often from the extrme poor class. I kinda wish one day if i visit america i woukd somehow find my distant relatives there we have photos, and that kinda stuff they sent over here, and woukd be nice to share with people even though we dont know we related
Many Finns who came to America were enticed by a "workers' paradise" in the Soviet Union. Sadly, many of them got caught up in Stalin's purges and were never heard from again.
Yes, many were. Including some who had emigrated to North America but were lured back by Stalin in the 1930's to work in the Soviet forestry industry in Karelia. There is a book about this episode by Irina Takala of Petrozavodsk State University and Alexey Golubev of the University of Houston.
@@williamhancock8065 Well, it wasn't Stalin who invited Finnish Americans to build Soviet Karelia. There was a huge need for the working people and machinery in Soviet Karelia and it was Edvard Gylling's idea to try to get Finnish Americans move to Soviet Karelia. Some of them were even pretty wealthy and brought money and machinery to USSR and most of them were socialists and communists. Gylling was nationalist as much as socialist and tried to increase Balto-Finnic population in Soviet Karelia. It was like the lost Red Finland to him. He even got thousands of East Karelian refugees pardoned and they returned from Finland back to USSR. Gylling opposed Gulags and those were the reasons that got him executed. And most of the Finnish and Karelian people who came there in Gylling's era were also arrested and executed or banished to the Siberia. Some of Gylling's grandchildren "returned" to Finland after Soviet Union collapsed with the "Ingrian Finns right to return"-law which included also Finns who were descendants of the Red Guard refugees etc.
My grand father was a member of Suojeluskunta. He was a proud farmer and had studied in Evo forestry school. In his life there were no reds , only communists. The civil war was more or less a bad thing to be forget.
1:39 Swedish speaking landowners did exist, but in 1917 only 11% of the population were Swedish speakers. Land ownership differed greatly of what it was in Central Europe, because since the land reform 'storskiftet' in the late 1700's all farming land was owned by individual farms, by the farmers themselves. As Swedish was the language for the academic and people living in towns, it is safe to say that way over 90% of the landowners were Finnish speakers. These Finnish landowners had gone through an astonishing developement by the end of the 1800's. It can be described as a grandfather that could not write, father that had been in elementary school and all the children, girls included, studying in the University. This was the result of the nationalist ideology that wanted Finland to be free and develop as a nation. Universal right to vote was one of the big early accomplishments.
This is true, but in south Finland most big landowners & mansions was Swedish speakers (off cource when most Swedish speakers living in coastal areas) and land was far more accumulated for few big landowners. This was one reason why red guards was so strong South Finland and this are was also most industrial are of Finland.
@@SavolaxMitsu True when we go into details. I was trying to correct the impression that there had been the Swedish speaking landowners as opposed to Finns who would not own land - when by far most of the landowners were Finnish speakers. In reality the divide went between those who owned land and those who did not; language was rather irrelevant. The landowners were of course against bolshevism and as they supported the Jaeger movement they were 'pro German' although more precisely 'pro Finland through Germany'.
@@sampohonkala4195 Totta ja Helsingin punakaarti oli luonnollisesti varsin hyvin edustettu myös ruotsinkielisten osalta, en ulkoa enää muista miten prosentuaalisesti se jakaantui suomen -ja ruotsinkielisten kesken, mutta kun katsoo johtohahmoja, niin ruotsalaiset sukunimet ovat varsin yleisiä. Pointtina oli enemmänkin, että varsinkin Uusimaa oli vanhaa kartanoiden hallitsemaa aluetta maanomistuksen suhteen ja näin erottui muista maakunnista, tosin myös Varsinais-Suomessa ja Hämeessä oli varsin kartanoiden hallitsemaa maaomistajuuden osalta, mutta ei niin jyrkästi kuin Uusimaa.
As was stated in the video, Swedish was the language of the educated and upper classes. What wasn't stated was whether those Swedish people were of Swedish origin who spoke Swedish as a first language or Finns who spoke Swedish as a second for social or practical reasons. Depending on how one asks the question the members of this latter group can, quite truthfully be described as either Swedish speakers or Finnish speakers. Or both. The simple fact is, when push came to shove they all fought for Finland in whatever way they perceived that..
I had family on both sides of the conflict. My maternal grandmother's father was only 15/16 years old during the civil war and had the role of a runner within the Red Guards. According to my grandmother, he never spoke of 1918. He later in 1939/1940 supported the war effort in the form of supplying troops on the front, but he never saw combat there. Lost one of his horses to a landmine according to one story I've heard. Another more distant family member I know operated as a White Guard spy in Helsinki, smuggling information and weapons in and out of the city with his young daughter. Shortly after the war, he was shot and murdered in his apartment building stairway. The murderer was never caught, but it's suspected that it was a former Red Guard member.
That sounds really dangerous being a spy. It reminds me of the US civil war 1860-65 in my country. Many families had people fighting on both sides of the conflict.
@@HeroesofNovember @Heroes of November 1923 What corporations are you referring to? I can't imagine there were too many companies in Finland at that time that had the kind of money available that would have been enough to make a difference in a war of that size. If you are simply referring to the definition of resistance then it could be said there are many civilian companies in Ukraine right now that are supporting the soldiers in resistance to the Russian invasion. Everything from civilian drone manufacturers making modifications for dropping grenades to auto repair shops now performing repairs on tanks and various BMP infantry fighting vehicles.
My grandfathers grandfather was a commander in the Russian Tsarist Army and in charge of Suomenlinna and the Russian garrison there during this time. He was first imprisoned by the reds during the beginning of the war and held at Suomenlinna as a prisoner(as many people would). He remained a captive when the Germans/whites took over and was pardoned/released later on the orders of Mannerheim. Sadly he died soon after as the result of the horrible conditions in the prison camps. He went from being a rich officer to a penniless man without a home in just a few years. His family stayed in Finland after the war as they could not return to a red Russia. My own grandfather married to a Swedish speaking Finn from Hanko(my late grandmother) and considers himself a Swedish speaking Finn, even though he was raised by two Russian parents. He is 95 years old and still has the Tsarist Sabres of his grandfather/father(also a cadett in the russian army), on his wall.
I feel like Finnish civil war was a tabu for decades and it wasn't really discussed until quite recently. At least during the 90's and early 2000's civil war was just a side note in schools history classes and it was quickly moved on to more clamorous parts of the Finnish history. Even though my home town was a battleground for some heavy fighting, it was basically never talked about. Only once I met one man who was born a few years before the civil war and he told me how that war destroyed the way of living in his home village. How that community turned against one another and how plague alcoholism swept through it after the war as men tried to cope with killing their neighbors. Civil war left its marks on generations, it was a wound left open and it took at least one full generation to open the wound and be open about it.
Correction: The view of losing Red Guards was of course sort of taboo for decades. But I can't see here any taboo since 1970s at least. Atrocities and crimes of both sides have been researched and discussed pretty open for many many decades already.
@@ericv.1420 We had a peculiar substitute history teacher in ninth grade, in 1986 - 1987, who was brave enough to teach quite thoroughly about the civil war and also made us to think about it. He explained carefully that the seeds of the conflict were planted about 50 years earlier, during the great famine, that killed 10 - 15 percent of the people, and locally the death rate was far, far higher. The bitterness and the new ideology, socialism, together with rising literacy and domestic and international connections, like family members living in America, united the poor. So, the poor of the country were not slaves. They might have been hungry and suffering from shortages, but they were able to cooperate. While this might have not been the whole truth, it is still sad, how naive and simplistic ideas about the reasons of the civil war can be among ordinary Finns. There are still people believing that, for example, Russian bolsheviks were the sole initiators of the war, exploiting the assumed stupidity of those who joined the reds.
@@terohyvarinen4358 I like the view of the historian-politician T. Keskisarja: young Finns were in January 1918 generally EAGER to go to war. Adventurous young people simply wanted war! What a loons. Also I can see there certain pattern of mass madness forming. World War, Russian Revolutions etc. The young Finn thought:"ME TOO!"
@@ericv.1420 That kind of atmosphere is described in the Under the North Star trilogy (Täällä Pohjantähden alla) by Väinö Linna. Young people, men and women and even teenage boys and girls, were aiming for a major coup very fast. That "very fast" seems to be a major mistake in planning violent (special) operations. Most probably they really did not understand what they were actually about to undertake. I can guess some of the reasons were leftish propaganda, agitation and outright thoughtlessness. Now-or-never-thinking was, probably, somewhat appropriate at that situation, but they did not have the resources they would have needed. Not enough weapons and no military training or really working organization. Thousands and thousads were finally killed. How many would have been killed, had they won?
As a Finn, Civil War is not remembered much these days. If asked, may people would say that the good guys won the Civil War as the red victory would have most likely made Finland just another Soviet Republic and just 20 years later, former whites and reds fought side by side in the Winter War to prevent that. Now there are some deep red families in which the story goes other way around and they still see whites as the bad guys and believe red victory would have made an independent Finland that would have been a much better place. I say families as per my experience these are usually people from families who had been politically far left from generation to generation. They are small minority, but probably usually the people who remembers the Civil War most. Now the White Terror is universally condemned. Even if people see whites being the good guys in the war itself, terror is seen being evil. White leadership (Mannerheim, Svinhufvud) are somewhat seen not as guilty of the terror as they moved to stop it relatively quickly after the war. And of course vats majority of the population knows next to nothing about the Civil War :P
Red Finland would have taken a different civilizational path, restoring eastern diplomacy and becoming like Hungary. Although it’s impossible to speculate whether they would be a soviet satellite or part of Tito’s non aligned movement.
@stupid chukhna It would've been a quick integration with soviet union as the Red leadership was pro internationalisn. Red military was really led by men like Eino Rahja (Lenins bodyguard, got weapons from bolsheviks), Adolf Taimi (bolshevik), Evert Eloranta (wanted to ban private ownership, SDP). Supported by Russian General Sventsnikov who really planned the operations. That kind of setup can't really lead to anything democratic, especially not social democratic. EDIT: What your average red guard wanted or thought they were fighting for is really inconsequential in this matter.
As is the red terror that started way before white terror. Both did terrorize during but only latter after. There is no reason to think that Reds would have acted more kindly towards whites if had won.
My relatives fought on both sides. One was a jaeger, one was in the reds and was executed in Viipuri. In the inter war period, people mostly tried to forget the nightmare, apart from the elements who fled to Russia. Especially the Winter war did much to unify the country. After the second world war there was bona fide discussion to understand what had happened. In the 70s there were political movements whose political agenda controversy around the issue suited and who therefore kept returning to the issue. I would say that in 2023 the Civil war is mostly history although most people still remember on whose side their grandfathers fought. I appreciate your videos very much. Keep up the good work! By the way, the map in the background is not correct, if it purports to show Finland during the Civil war. The "hand" extending to the Barents Sea was only annexed to Finland in the Tartu Peace Treaty in 1920.
History Hustle;You asked for a comment on how the Finnish Civil War is remembered,As i understand it there are still some who are bitter about what happened in that time not a big group, time has fortunately healed some wounds, also the historians have difficulties about the very name they use about this war,some say lets call it the civil war others say no no lets call it the war of freedom others say lets call it the brothers war thats a poor translation from me but it refers to brother against brother all in all i think its a sad chapter in Finnish history,Good work keep it up Tom...🙂
I think civil war is remembered matter of factly. Things happened and as people are quite middle class nowadays anyway, it's just interesting history for most of us. Older people might have stories about their parents and such but not much more. I'd like to point out that after the war the reds didn't vanish but were taken to the parliament to help build the new country together. Thus we didn't become a right wing military state, in fact later when far right groups sprung up in the 30's they and their methods were shunned by most and were made illegal. Point being is that relationships began to heal slowly and that made the people united in the WW2 and after.
Reds escaped into Soviet Union, were in prison, dead and/or lost their citizen rights that prevented them from holding any office, voting, being a witness in court, practicing some occupations like merchant etc. Socialistic Democrats after the war was basically a new party with new goals and was leaning to western values as it was purged from the most radical elements. Military state was not really ever even in the books as it all depended on the end of WWI. Allies winning and collapse of the German Empire freed Finland from the promises that were made to them during the civil war. New elections was set as a requirement from the western powers to recognize Finland as independent state Mannerheim ordered new elections to be held. SDP once again got most seats but not the right to make the decisions as the minority government was formed with pro-republic parties excluding SDP itself that also favored Finland to be a republic.
Step three: 3. Growing civilian unrest because of the circumstances of the war A little bit earlier during the summer, the coalition government broke up, when the social democratic ministers jumped off mostly because of the alimentary question, which was growing worse. The provisional government was using grain exports as a weapon to keep the Finnish government on a leash. They kept on promising the trainloads of food, but those promises were never fulfilled for some reason or other. Not that there was actual famine, but many things were still under rationing: sugar, butter, meat, milk, bread, and so on, and everybody was trying to make ends meet, and at the same time suspecting, that someone was hoarding something. This increased the tension between low-income families and middle-class families, but especially the population in cities (consumers) and landscape (producers), as the producers could cut off their share before handing over the rest for the consumption rations, and therefore could be far more secure that they have at least some foods on the table. The problem really was the uncertainty, will the food last until the next crop or not. This tension might have created the need for protective guards in the countryside, in case the population in the cities should try to come and confiscate their crops by force. At least this story was told in the cities among the worker associations, which started to create their own guards to protect themselves. At the same time, the provisional government was out of money and had to stop making orders in Finnish factories and cease the fortification works, which increased unemployment. Also, inflation run out of control, so even if somebody had saved something for a rainy day, those savings lost their value. The outrage was showing in spontaneous demonstrations, strikes, and sieges of municipalities. All the civilian troubles also meant, that people wanted to search for protection among the labor organizations, which grew in numbers very rapidly.
Mannerheim was in fact voted the greatest finn of all history. You should do an episode on him exclusively, it's a mostly untold story outside of finland. There was a movie supposed to be made, but they blew the budget and had to cancel it altogether. I think it would have made an amazing film, since he led such a special life in crazy times. My great-grand father was fighting in the white cavalry, before becoming a priest after the war. My grandmother was immensly proud of him and always spoke of how history would have been completely different if it wasn't for men like him on the whites' side. I think the wounds from the civil war didn't heal until the russians attacked again, which galvanized the population to fight together.
When I visited Finland (2017) I was told that Mannerheim had become quite controversial in recent years, due to his treatment of Red POWs. Supposedly he told his subordinate commanders not to give sick or wounded POWs any medical treatment because the White Army couldn't afford to expend precious medical supplies on people who were going to Hell anyway for embracing the false god of Marxism. When I heard that, I thought wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. I also heard that in recent years "Red Revisionism" has become popular in Finland, trying to make the Reds appear as the good guys, for example in the movie "Tears of April".
Mannerheim is probably one of the greatest people in Finnish history, but he is more a membered of what happened in the Winter and Continuation War with Russia. I was always thinking of all the success that he made for our country. I've made a couple of visits to Red's memorial places or their graveyard(not sure which one it was), and it was quite horrific to see that most of them died after the war in prison camps many have the same last names and birthplace. Probably that is quite normal if your side loses, but still... letting our own countrymen die in a high number feels a bit brutal. We still had to remember over 100 years ago the world and the country itself was a very different place, and there was not much food and people were divided. Probably people do not want to talk about those deads because Mannerheim is so big person in Finland.
I remember a school exercise where we were supposed to ask our grandparents about the civil war. Mine just didn't answer at all. Other topics I remember from our history classes are the discussion of choice of word about the conflict and how that reveals the agenda of the speaker. Also, it was made clear that it was a war where neighbours were killing each other. I remember that the advances of the Whites and the German landings were discussed. The terror by both sides and the prisoner camps after the war were also discussed in school. It was also highlighted how the divided nation was finally unified in talvisota.
The last veteran of the conflict was Aarne Arvonen of the Red Guard. He was captured during the war and even survived a year in the Tammisaari Prison Camp. Arvonen passed away in 2009, aged 111.
How is this viewed in Finland? So fractiously and bitterly, that we still don't agree on single name for it. There is like 4 different names for the civil war in Finnish and in Finland and case of "what name you use about it tells a lot about your politics". Using the "wrong name" might get one and angry retort from someone, that don't call it that "that isn't what the thing was". Down to point of the public broadcaster YLE, who is supposed to stay neutral, uses as tortured name as "the events of the year of 1918" often when talking about it.
Spot on. I lived my childhood in Pispala Tampere and what I remembered old folks never talked about the war ,at least when kids where around, this was in late seventies and early to mid eighties , in those times we had a chore in the school to sell pins for Mannerheim¨s child protection organisation (Mannerheimin lastensuojeluliitto) some of the people gave as quite rough welcoming and shouted we don¨t buy pins fron the butcher! Pispala was still mainly red back then.
It is funny though. Imagine being surprised someone might be upset you call killing your countrymen, neighbours and brothers the "freedom war" instead of just the "civil war".
I moved away from Finland as a boy in the 1950's. I believe that my relatives came both from both the red and white sides. I never heard the civil war discussed by any of my relatives (a few of whom had lived through it). I think that was the typical reaction to the war by Finns. They wanted to forget it. The later hostilities by the Soviets had united the reds and whites. I believe that some given names gave clue to which side their parents were on, eg, Voitto.
My grandfathers dad was also on red guard with his brother. Both survived and went to prison camps for a treason and got 4 and 9 yrs sentences. Survived through that also. My grandfather couldn't tell much about that, his father didn't tell him all the things, since issue was painful. In 1932 there was Mäntsälän kapina, Mantsala's rebellion, which was continuation to civil war, started by Lapuan Liike, Lapua movement , far right movement which wanted to throw out all communists from parliament. To Mäntsälä gathered about 500 men with guns, who were planned to march to Helsinki and overthrow government. Army was placed to alert to prevent that. March to Helsinki stopped to Mäntsälä and ended peacefully after president Svinhuvuds speech on radio. (Rebellion explained simply) Thank you for your video.
Couple of things: 1. Finnish identity started forming far before the 1905 reforms. The later half of the 19th century had largely been the time of that process, with the grand duchy receiving its own currency and finnish being made into an official language. 2. The revolution did not only see support from factory workers and the city-dwelling part of the population. The tenant farmers and a growing population of jobless poor in the countryside supported it as well. This a part of why the civil war can be a touchy subject in Finland; every community had to face it.
In fact, it can be simplified that in 1918, the industrial workers organized in trade unions were on the opposite side, and all other Finns were on the other side. 75 percent of the Red Guards were industrial workers, while the largest group of whites were farmers or their sons, comprising 45 percent. The crofters/tenant farmers were represented on both sides, but their share was remarkably small. Perhaps the expected collectivization of farms made the land-hungry crofters think more carefully and joining the whites along with the landlords was not attractive either. In any case, it was the crofters who participated in the war to a particularly small extent.
As a Finn and a casual observer of our history, I find it interesting that in the name of openness and understanding Finnish research, articles, TV programs and documentaries appear to focus on the treatment of the reds by the whites. Topics include confusion as to cause and justification of conflict, debate whether it was a civil war or a proxy war, workers conditions, women among the reds, summary executions by the whites, prison conditions the reds suffered, questioning if marshal Mannerheim was in reality a war criminal instead of a valued leader, to name a few. Considering that there were forces in Finnish society that felt favorably towards closer ties with the Soviet Union/Russian federation and opposed joining the EEC, EFTA, the EU and vehemently opposing western military alliance, I feel that many of cases for understanding our past is a means to halt western leaning sentiments and to redefine past events.
The Finnish civil war really does stand out when you look at finnish history. Finns are often looked as people who stand united and who are peaceful unless provoked. I think the finnish civil war is a historical event wich goes against the grain of what it means to be a finn, and therefore there is a sense of national shame about it. The civil war is very rarely spoken about. Usually when war is spoken about, taught, or turned into media and movies and such it is the WW2 conflicts. I believe in the future we may be able to speak more openly about it, but not yet.
Many thanks for this excellent documentary. A couple of comments: Finland had been gradually incorporated by Sweden from the 12th century onwards. Understandably, this eastern province was dominated by a Swedish speaking aristocracy and intelligentsia. However, the Reformation in the 16th century provided a basis for Finnish language in the church. Also, even though Southern Finland gradually became dominated by large estates of noble Swedish speaking landholders with the actual tilling increasingly done by landless tenant farmers (who, by the way, became a primary force behind the Red rebellion). Further north the land was still owned or at least used by Finnish speaking farmers. After the Russian annexation in 1809 Finland experienced, amazingly, a great period of national growth and development, mutating from a Swedish province to a nation. This was due to many fortunate factors, e.g. Finland's exceptional legal status within Russia, the need for the Swedish speaking elite to differentiate from both Sweden and Russia etc etc. At the same time both the economy and population grew rapidly. This was of course helped immensely by the proximity of the Russian capital. But, the Russians being Russians and seeing a good thing, started rapidly undermining it towards the end of the 19th century with a policy of Russification and systematic destruction of Finland's constitutional position. In the process they managed to turn a peaceful and faithful part of their tottering empire into a seething hotbed of resentment in just a generation. One should realize that Finns were, and still are, solidly for fair play by the rules. The most effective way to provoke them (=us) is to flaunt the rules. Thus the clandestine emigration of hundreds of our finest young men to Germany for military training during WW1. So, the two big driving forces for our civil war were: illegal actions by the Russian government (Whites), the abject position of the tenant farmers on the great estates of southern Finland (Reds) and the collapse of the Russian empire in 1917 (both). And what about the result? I think the vast majority of Finns, with the benefit of hindsight, are happy that the Whites won. The alternative would probably have meant eventual Soviet occupation and unending calamity and decay. A bit like Ukraine. Also, most think that the White victory was marred by the unnecessary atrocities after the war. The White leaders should have kept a check on their forces, they were fighting for legality after all. I myself come from central eastern Finland, which was solidly White, and the civil war is not a big issue there. However, from friends in the South whose forebears fought on the losing side I know that they still have family memories of women trying to throw food packages to their starving husbands in the prisoner camps. I am sure that also people from families whose members were murdered by the Red guards still bear that memory. However, one of Finnish culture's good aspects is that hatreds are not carried over from generation to generation even if memories are. And one should also remember the aftermath of the war: our parliament quickly legislated an effective land reform, which removed the justified resentments of the tenant farmers. Thus the Russians, once again, totally overestimated their ability to destabilize Finnish society by invading in 1939. They achieved the exact opposite. Those guys never learn, at least not the correct lessons.
Tension had risen much earlier first clashes was during general strike in 1905 and the repellion of Viapori (Suomenlinna) then there was tenant farmers strike and evictions in western Finland in 1911. And during war there was shortage of food and almost everything and coverment had no meanings to mitigate it. And still today there is some lines in our sosiety because of that war it was short but bloody mainly because it was fought between amateurs who shoot verything wich move. And about Helsinki the last bastion of resistance was in Vesilinna (Water reservoir) defended by redguards women in Linnanmäki wich is now inside amusement park.
If you haven't read it you should read Väinö Linna's Täällä Pohjantähden Alla, there is an English translation by Richard Impola. The former Finnish PM Esko Aho has said that to understand Finland and the Finns one must read that book. It is a family saga that covers three generations from about 1880 through to just after the Second World War. In that book it is implied that much of the healing over the Civil War took place during the Winter and Continuation Wars, where men who had been on opposing sided fought side by side against the Soviet Union. Or at least their children did. The main character Akseli Koskela (my son is named Akseli after him) loses two brothers to the White Terror in the Civil War, and comes close to dying in an internment camp, not to mention losing his citizenship for a number of years. But he also loses three sons fighting in the wars against the Soviet Union. I'm a foreigner here in Finland, but I've been here for 24 years, and it seems to me that the wars against the USSR are what unified Finland into one people. Before that they were Reds or Whites, Finnish or Swedish speakers. Afterwards they were a people who had fought tenaciously against a common enemy to remain free.
"Täällä Pohjantähden alla" is made as a two part movie too, in years 1968 and 1970 (director Edvin Laine). And again in 2009, directed by Timo Koivusalo. These are available as DVD's too.
At the national level the divide between the white and red Finns ended in 1939, when the reds and whites alike gathered to fight the USSR under the command of Mannerheim. Nowadays the question is more academic and personal; people may be bitter of what happened to their distant relatives over a hundred years ago. That is however a separate issue that does no longer affect anyone's daily life. Both sides were obviously guilty: the reds started the violence by attempting a revolution, the whites did little to end the unnecessary suffering when the result was alreaydy clear.
@@HistoryHustle your videos are always very interesting and documented. Even when I express criticism,.such as regarding your vision of marxist method or the relationship nazism-capitslism, it is always out of respect for you and for your impressive work. By the way, we are colleagues by profession.
If you want to gain a better perspective on how it is remembered, then reading the three novels of "Täällä Pohjantähden alla" (Under the North Star) or watching the mini series of movies about the novels. Since the novels follow a family that fought with the reds and survived, they end up having that bitter resentment until the Soviets attacked in 1939. The Civil war is a distant memory now, however, my family used to say that the Civil War was the Schism that fractured the nation until the Soviets attacked in 1939 which finally unified Finland for Finnish people. The Civil war is the ending of Act One, WW2 was Act two, Act three ended with us joining Nato, let's see where our new story goes to.
In the Lahti Mustakallio graveyard is a patch of land with no gravestones. This is where a group of Reds including women were marched, shot and buried *en masse*
I have a friend who lives in the upper peninsula of Michigan. It is a rural area remote from the rest of the US. About 16% of residents are Finnish. He told me that the many Finnish families still identify as "Red Finns" or "White Finns", depending on the loyalties of their ancestors. I suppose during and after the civil war Red or White Finns with connections to the heavily Nordic upper Midwest region of the US would-be motivated to immigrate.
Reading these comments it seems remembering the conflict is rather situational or regional. I live aboout halfway between Helsinki ja Tampere (for reference to the video), in Riihimäki. We had a russian garrison here up until 1917 and the whole city is here basically because of the railway. Now I don't know how that might have affected peoples opinions, but I have never met anyone who would've had anything good to say about the reds. However mostly you just might hear a random remark about the civil war and not much else. Even in public school what I remember being taught about it was along the lines: it happened in 1917 and Mannerheim won. I had a relative from my father side who was one of the German trained jaeger (jääkäri). However he passed away way before my birth so I really don't know much about it, except we still have his C96 Mauser he brought from Germany.
I'm a descedant of White guard folks, but still need to say that Reds weren't some mindless communists. They only demanded better wage, working and living conditions for the poor and workers, and to have Saturday free, in addition to Sunday. They had a six day, 10 hour per day working weeks. Very hard. Very polluted, cramped living conditions. Surely it got out of hand when Reds started killing some wealthy industrialists and farmes. But Whites gave it back when after the war they held 20 000 Red prisoners, and 13 700 of them died. In total 37 000 died during the war which was a lot for at the time country of 3.1 million.
Another good video Goltz has an interesting history in that era. You may want to do a video on him. Anyway, You nearly tricked me there with the earliest ding dong yet at 2:09. Take care.
There is a Lenin Museum in the Tampere Workers' House, I believe the only one left in East Europe. It has more of a camp value nowadays, but Soviet tourists were brought there back in the day by bus loads.
Interesting story concerning the meeting: Finnish cops who were acting as Lenin's bodyguards (local police chief was a Socialist) apparently saw though what sort of thug Stalin was and supposedly roughed him up, when he first came asking Lenin and did not take no as an answer too well.
Super thanks 😊...,(Sir Stefan) for sharing this informative 👍🏻 historical coverage about Finland 🇫🇮 previous official independent ...it was informative,enjoyable introduction 0:04
Thank you for this interesting but not entirely unflawed presentaion. To answer your question. I myself, born in 1955 and having grown up in the Swedish speaking countryside north of Vasa did not meet any persons who had actually taken part in the civil war. My paternal grandparents got married in 1918, so their lives dont seem to have been too much disturbed by the conflict. This means I have no direct recollection of this conflict to retell. The other side of my family comes from Korpo in the south west archipelago, which actually saw some serious fighting in the spring of 1918 in which many reds died. There is now a little monument commemorating them. The general attitude on the island is that those men and boys were fighting for a just cause under unfortunate circumstances and are worthy of our respect just as our war veterans.
One thing that many don't realize is that many Leftist Finns emigrated to the US and Canada after their defeat in the Finnish Civil War. Most settled in the Upper Midwest of the US or Ontario in Canada. Many worked in the forestry industry as they had in Finland. In the 1930's Stalin encouraged the Leftist Finns to emigrate to the Soviet Union to help build socialism. They had forestry skills and tools far superior to the Soviets. Most settled around Petrozavodsk and Kondopoga in Karelia. Within a few years the North American Finns fell out of favor with the paranoid and xenophobic Russians. Most were murdered by the Bolsheviks during the Great Terror of 1938-9. There are graves all over Karelia. But some survived and integrated into Soviet society. There is still a Finnish (Lutheran) church in Petrozavodsk that was revived after communism. There is also a Finnish Theater with a combination of Russian actors and actors who come from Finland (or at least they did before the war in Ukraine). There is a section of Petrozavodsk where many of the North American Finns lived that they referred to as American Town. It was known among other things for jazz music which the North American Finns introduced to Karelia. Petrozavodsk was occupied by Finns during the Continuation War (WWII) when Finns tried to recapture parts of Karelia taken from them in the Winter War of 1939-40. The Winter War is a period of Soviet and Finnish history many people are not aware of. Some parallels to it and war in Ukraine. The Finns killed up to a million Soviet troops. Finland had a population of about 3-4 million then. They did it because of superior tactics and Russian stupidity. But the size of the USSR eventually led to Finnish capitulation and territorial concessions. But when WWII broke out the Finns attempted to recapture Karelia.
Finnish civil war remains tabu in much of southern Finland. I am from North Finland Pohjanmaa and we are both happy and proud of this war with no regrets. We don't call it civil war, but war of freedom, or independence war. We would all be dead, if the reds won.
Finnish Canadian here. Our country had a whole wave of Finnish immigration during the 1917-1919 period, mostly of Finnish Reds who realized they were on the losing side. My paternal grandmother's family was one of these (she was born shortly after they got off the boat). It's one of the reasons why Finnish immigrants were such active supporters of the trade unions in Canada during the 20s & 30s. My mother's side of the family were whites. From what I can gather, the prevailing attitude among her parents (who would have been born during or in the immediate aftermath of the War) is basically "Thank god it ended quickly." They were all northerners (around Rovaniemi, far away from the fighting) and while they could definitely be called patriots (several WW II veterans + lifelong civil servants) they didn't seem to have any particularly virulent dislike for the Finnish Reds. From what I understand, this attitude was different the further south you went.
It was very traumatic war. Brothers were against brothers. It divided Finnish society until 1980's. The name of the war was disputed for decades. Leftists called it class warfare. Right-wingers for a war of independence. Today it is neutrally called the Civil War.
In reference to the previous comment. In Finland, the name civil war began to be commonly used in the last decades. YLE generally uses the term civil war. Civil war is also the term used by the research. Recently, however, the name civil war has begun to be questioned in some media (and in the public's mouth) and politically value-laden expressions have increased. This only tells us that the Finnish civil war has once again become a more painful and difficult topic of discussion. Unfortunately. Thank you for a really good channel! Greetings from your colleague from Finland.
Overall the Finnish civil war isn't as big as what WW2 was in Finland, but ofcourse there are stories of some battles and the white prisonercamps (like Suomenlinna) after the war. Also Tällä Pohjantähden alla is a finnish tv series that showed quite well stuff from the Red Finnish side.
Pohjantähden alla have one big problem, is show that most torpparit / tenant farmers was fighthing in red guards side, even in reality tenant farmers was 50/50 divided up whit whites & reds. Most reds where industrial & farm workers.
@@SavolaxMitsu ”Täällä pohjan tähden alla” (= Hear Under Northern Star by Väinö Linna) is mainly about tenant farmers (= torpparit) in Southern Finland, in commune of Urjala. So basically it does not represent what happened elsewere. But I think it describes the situation in Southern Finland quite well. Distant ”relative’s relative” of mine is mentioned in the book: He and his wife were executed by The Whites. And the reason basically was that he could write fluently and therefore was a secratary for the commune. No wonder their sons considered The Whites as butchers (= ”lahtari”).
About your question ... People do not have much knowledge about what happened. We can not even agree if shall call it a civil war (which is correct if you ask me), the red uprising, freedom war, the war between classes, the war between brothers and so on. Thank you for an interesting documentary. Btw ... I found the grave of my grandfathers brother some years ago. Not far from Hamburg airport. He was a member of the Jaeger movement, but died of tuberculosis.
Growing up in Finland and it's great school system in 1980s it was my understanding that any significant ideological and sentimental differences related to the Finnish Civil War were basically abolished by the long and severe WWII against the Soviet Union. By then any utopian idealization of the Communist regime were finally broken, and all the Finns joined the fight against the Soviets like brothers and sisters with one and only goal, to remain as an independent nation. Thank God they succeeded!
I am 54 years old and Finnish. Most of my ancestors sided with the Reds. This was never discussed at home. I found it when studying my family. Also, suspiciously many of my relatives live in Russia. They are descendants of the Finnish refugees/immigrants that went first to Canada and then to Karelia, Russia. Some stayed there, some moved back. I hold no grudge for the children of white guard offspring, but there was a division in my childhood, like a class division. In WW II, there was a Fascist women's organization along with White Guards. My grandmother made very clear she was no part of it. So, there are and were Finns that are full into patriotism, nationalism, church and then there are and were Finns that were hush hush in situations like these.
Very interesting. Apart from Finland gaining independence as a result of the October Revolution I didn’t know much about the resulting Civil War. Thanks 👍
I lived in Tammela(Tammela included Forssa during this time) in my child hood and i heard loads of whites atrocities, it was calm during the civil war but after civil war whites got in and started killing around 463 reds were killed was 6 most killed in Finland.
The civil war isn't talked about much. It's just seen as a great tragedy and the darkest pages in Finnish history where we killed each other and there was no truly "good" side. Only the fringe extremes of the political spectrum in modern day Finland still think about and bring up this war, for the rest of us sufficient time has passed that it doesn't affect or influence our lives anymore. Some changes were implemented after the civil war that started healing the wounds, but it was the conflicts during WW2 that truly united the people. Socialists or right-wing didn't matter anymore when everybody considered the USSR an existential threat. If the war was lost, nobody would live peacefully, if they'd live at all. That being said, I've heard from elderly family members that even post-WW2 the civil war was taught in a very biased way, referred to as the "freedom war" and blaming the reds for everything while glossing over any crimes the white committed. But that was in the 50s and 60s, those times have long gone as well. Nowadays I think what little is taught is relatively unbiased.
It had to be remembered, that Finnish war in 1918 was bloodiest (relatively!) of all Civil wars. Not even Balkan wars after Yugolavia's collapse in 1990's weren't so raw blood-bath!
Sweden did do a small intervention on Åland islands during Finlands civil War. That on the request from the Swedish speaking people living on the islands for military protection. After the war there was a big discussion about the status and sovereignty of Åland. It resulted in that Åland did get autonomy in 1921, but stayed as a part of Finland. That autonomy do Åland islands still have to day with in the republic of Finland. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_%C3%85land
@@HistoryHustle If you do i recommend you visit the museum centre Vapriikki, they have an exhibition about the civil war and battle of Tampere. It was supposed to be there just for the 100th anniversary but it was so popular they kept it there. Allso there is a statue of Mannerheim in Leinola in the spot that he was observing the battle
As a Norwegian and very interested in Finnish history, I believe that the Soviet Union in a strange way saved Finland when they attacked them late autumn 1939 and started what would be known as The Winter War. There was then still a large red and angry part of the Finnish population with a lot of bitterness, 20 years after they were defeated in Civil War. And then the Russians attacked, and former red and whites found themselves fighting shoulder to shoulder against a common enemy they would learn to hate. This war costed the Finns both men and land, but they came out of it much more united than before the war. And since then Finland have been a homogen country with a strong social capital. Everything Russia isn't ...
It was 1917 year start to end when seeds of the civil war started, and social order collapsed. All the while political stucture lost the masses trust in series of decisions, which collided against parties. Politics played a big part. Political environment didn't collapse in 1916, but in 1917. Russofication just increased willingness to became independent, but didn't cause civil war. And even independence decision of How became quarrel with socialist and the right-wing parties. The Biggest internal reason was universal famine, lack of food in industrial centers. Farmers were fine. This inspired revolution in cities, but the reds were minority in Agricultural society. Victory by the reds would have resulted fate of Ukraine & Belarus 1919 in the hands of Soviets, and became part of future Stalin terror state. I hate when our socialist ignore this. My mothers uncle, white and farmer, got wounded in Tampere 1918 to the stomach, and due smaller stomach, he had to eat small food portions rest of his live.
I also had family in both sides of the conflict. My mother's father was serving in white side in Tampere when he was 15 years old. He was a horse carriage man, so delivering supplies... and probably carrying dead and wounded from the fronts. Then after going through WW2 in front-lines, I can just imagine how these experiences have affected on him. Then again from my father's mother was a young girl during the conflict, but his two brothers fought in red side in Helsinki, as they were poor working class 18 and 20 year old. They were put to prison camps and died there... no information to what. My grandmother visited the camp in Helsinki bringing them some food and told me about starvation and torturing that was done. She said they hit to heel of the foot with blunt object to get confessions or information. Then they were transferred to worse prison camp and the end of the communication between them was there. White part was also quite undemocratic and pro-despotism even in this comment section I am sensing how people consider them liberators. Winner writes the history I guess. Well, long time since had a chance to talk with my grandmother, so maybe some details lost here. These events affected her hard and she still called my mom "lahtari" (a slaughterer), when they had some arguments. Interesting about this video was that it was close for Finland to become as a vassal state of Germany or part of the Soviet Union. Lucky us that things worked out as they did in the end. Tragic and unnecessary conflict, but in the end things end up well.
White side raged as maniacs, when they formed a movement named Lapuan Liike (Lapua Movement) in year 1929. This was wholly anti-communistic (they yelled socialdemocrats to communists too!) , and these violent beaters marched to Helsinki in Talonpoikaismarssi (Pheasant March) in summer 1930. This march was a direct copy of Italian Benito Mussolini's march to Rome in 1922. And these block-heads fell in deep love to Adolf Hitler, too. These marchers demanded Finnish parliament to make anticommunistic laws and therefore stop all left political parties work. Lapua-minded men forced leftists to the eastern border with car-rides, beatings and with guns too. Some carried men were killed. Then began so called Mäntsälä Mutiny (February 1932). One speaker, mr. Erich (leftist) had to come and speech in Mäntsälä Worker's House. Lapua-men with civil guardists (Suojeluskunta) wanted to prevent this speech occasion. There were some confusing mess between Lapua leaders, Army officers, Suojeluskunta, and finally president's speech ended this all. It was quite easy, because Lapua leaders drank heavily in Hämeenlinna! And hundreds of civil guard men waited, and waited, and waited. Lapua top man, a pheasant Vihtori Kosola had had his occasion, but he didn't know how to use it. Especially too many booze prevented him to pose as a Mussolini - clone! Kosola died 1936. He had been a machine gunner in civil war 1918, in White troops. And irony: Finnish parliament ended Lapua movement, using just anti-communistic prohibition law! Far right then formed a party: Patriotic People's Movement (Isänmaallinen Kansanliike, IKL). It was quite little in Parliament elections, and in 1944 (after peace treaty with Soviet Union) it was prohibited by Andrei Zhdanov, then acting as leader in Allied Commission in Finland.
Good topic. The intrawar period of often given short shrift, and you do a good job correcting this oversight. Kind of humorous that Englestein states that conflict did not _escalate_ due to foreign interference but was merely a _byproduct_ of Bolshevik agitation in the Finnish factories. Then the Germans tipped the balance. But don't call it foreign interference. I presume the Russians and Germans were about 100 year ahead of others claiming fluid transnational identity.
Foreign interference? The truth is that Finnish top class yelled to Germany for help. And after the civil war they quickly sold Finland as a vassal state under German rule. They even chose German prince to be King of Finland. Luckily the Kaiserreich lost the war in November 1918.
@@HistoryHustle Actually, the area was called Punakylä, as most of the buildings were painted tradiotionally red, but it is considered that there were many families with husbands dead or in prison camps living there. Because of the near total destruction of the western parts of the city in the white bombardsment prior of the conquest there was a huge need for emergency housing. I have never heard Tampere being called punakylä or punikkikylä, although as the industrial center most of the inhabitants were workers and were synpathetic towards revolution. But most of the time during the civil war the situation was very calm and was guided by very moderate socialdemocratic leaders. The few terroristic actions that happened were done by red guards from outside of the city.
@@SavolaxMitsu Maybe in the backwaters of Savo, but I guess that is because the University of Tampere had a reputation of being a rather radical in the '60's and '70's and these kinds of 'stamps' outlive a long time after the reasons have gone away. You seriously don't think Kalervo Kummola as being reddish, do you;-)
@@kimmokestinen686 Kuule ihan kuule täällä stadissakin puhutaan punaisesta Tampereesta. Alunperin kylläkin tuo punainen maine tuli ammattiliittojen vallalla Tampereella, Tampereen yliopiston maine sitten pari sukupolvea sen jälkeen löi sen lukkoon. Luuletko, että yksi pääsky tekee kesän? Perinteisesti vasemman laidan puolueet ovat olleet enemmistön asemassa Tampereella, aina 1920-luvulta 1990-luvun alkuun. Niin tällähän ei ole mitään tekemistä punaisen Tampereen maineen kanssa?
@@HistoryHustle It is quite ugly stuff that I don't really want to go into detail about. it can be summed up as brutality and fanaticism on both sides. This video did not portray the extent of this.
@@jonathanrice1070 A lot of Finns seem to have left in the 20s. I suppose that is logical after a civil war that was never really resolved in many people's hearts and minds.
P.E. Svinhufvud, the president, is the great great grandfather of the wife to my brother. Their homestead, nowaways serving as a museum, is not too far from the town we live. The wife of the president (Ella) was famous for her cooking skills and there is cake named after her, because she invented it.
Thank you for this. This was very informative. I'm really interested in this topic. Most I have learned about this dark period in our history is the stories of white terror in my home town Jämsä. Jämsä did not see much battles and was in white control whole time. Whites in charge executed anyone suspected being red. And some people used this as their advantage. If you had a neighbor you disliked you could tell the whites that they are reds. So the whites usually execuded them. People were shot by the church because it has cemetery there. People were also executed in Jalmari Saari's mansion and bodies were disposed in the frozen river. Owner of the mansion is called Hitler of Jämsä today. There was also book of this time of terror in Jämsä: "Jukka Rislakki - Kauhun aika - Neljä väkivallan kuukautta Jämsässä 1918" but I think it only in Finnish
As far as I understand from my Finnish relatives the civil war divided families and left wounds, but when the winter war began Finland came back together and the former white and red gaurds fought together against the Russains.
My Father's side of the family were Reds. A bunch of them escaped to Russia after Tampere and were never heard of again. I have a photo of them with red armbands and rifles. Born in Tampere myself in the 60s, people still talked about "Murder-Gustav" and his band of butchers, there was a lot of anti-White resentment fueled by leftists. A statue of Mannerheim was to be erected in the centre of Tampere, but due to (very real) fear of vandalism, it was placed outside the city, and it still got smeared with red paint. Half my family are buried in Kalevankangas where the Whites broke through. My old school was a field hospital for the reds. The Whites' victory monument is a man pointing a sword at the Workers' House, very subtle...
The civil war is pretty well handeled and in the past. In america there are folks seriously saying "the south shall rise again" in finland no one wants that genocide to return. I actually live in a piece of civil war history. My house was used by the local red guard as a headquarter.
There were no battles in northern and eastern Finland, at least no significant ones. The majority of Finns did not participate in the civil war, including my relatives Greetings from Finland
First of all thanks for shining a light to such a "minor" civil war. Always nice to see Finnish history being talked about in TH-cam. But you had couple big mistakes in the video: - Finnish identity started forming in the mid 19th century as a response for Finland being removed from Sweden and a way for the Russians to distance Finns from Sweden and so make them less likely to rebel. - Both Reds and Whites wanted an independent Finland. They just disagreed how it would be run. This is why breaking the parliament after the Power Act was important. SDP had the majority of the seats in the broken parliament and the next parliament had a conservative majority. This meant that the Reds felt that they couldn't get anything done politically. Then seeing what happened in Russia, and the arrival of Bolshevik agitators filled their heads of ideas that if not with good then with force. - The Yleislakko (Common (labour) strike) was handled together with the Whites and Reds. Both participated in it and both sides really formed their paramilitary units to handle security in it. After the Yleislakko had ended many Reds felt that they should have rebelled then so clearly the leadership of the SDP wasn't up to the task and levelheaded people were ousted from the leadership of the SDP. This lead to the SDP deciding to go for a coup. - In December 1917 the Finnish parliament made lots of new laws to appease the Reds, but this didn't help as the Reds were already preparing for the coup. - Also you didn't point out that Mannerheim wanted to win the war with Finnish soldiers. Otherwise people could say that the Whites only won because of the Germans. Hence why the fast offensive towards Tampere which was the main stronghold of the Reds. - Also after the fall of Tampere the Reds in the Western Finland started fleeing towards the East. This is why the capture of Lahti was important as it cut off a way to escape for all the Reds. Otherwise a very good video. As for how the Civil War is remembered here in Finland. We have come to terms with it. This already happened in the 60's when the trilogy "Täällä pohjantähden alla" (Here under the Northern Star) was released as it portrayed Reds before, during and after the war. Historians have also done lots of studies on the war and now the consideration is that mistakes were made and both sides had too much anger in them that unfortunately such a tragedy happened. These days people understand why the civil war started and undertand that Reds had real grievances and didn't just start a war because they felt like it. The thing is just that WW2 is such a massive part of the Finnish psyche and history that it puts the Civil War in its shadow. Especially as there wasn't anything as glorious with the Civil War as there was on say the Winter War.
@@HistoryHustle Forgot to mention. The Finnish government after the war wanted to make Finns one nation again. To this end the first Finnish president Ståhlberg worked on reconciliation between the Finns. Especially the agrarian Center party was pivottal in this as they could work both with the conservatives and the socialists to make Finland better. Also SDP started rebuilding itself and as the more radical portion of the party was dead, in prison or fled to the USSR then the more levelheaded side came to power. And this new SDP renounced revolution as a tool. All this meant that SDP became a real reliable political party in the 20's and in 1926 the SDP's Väinö Tanner became the prime minister! And in his role as the PM he observed the early military parade celebrating the victory in the Civil War! Yes, people at the time also thought WTF when the losing side was the highest government observer of the winners parade. I hope that this brings even more light on why Finns managed to raise from the division so fast and why the Civil War really is viewed through a neutral lense these days.
It isnt really talked about alot but i remember looking at the archives what my ancestors did and two of them fought for the whites. One died of "accidental discharge" and another "fell from a guard tower"
It depends in which side you asked. Tampere is somehow red today as it was in early 20th century. ... Lines between red and white are there but vague form but still. Even name of civil war is not yet settled.
My wife’s grandmother Lyyli or Lydia was born in Finland, probably in 1909. Her father was working in the church where he played the violin. We assume that when the civil war started, the parents sent her daughter to relatives in Estonia to be safe. That didn’t work very well, because months later Russians occupied Estonia. The young Lyyli and her Estonia family were deported to Russia separated from each other. She grew up in a children’s home along with other children from Finland, Estonia and even Swedish speaking children. Later her identity seems to have been faked to throw out all hints about her Finnish heritage. We assume that her Estonian husband, who was a high police man with contact to the russian secret services, arranged that to keep her out of the Stalin terror. During the siege of Saint Petersburg she worked there a a nurse. She never told anyone of her children about her heritage in fear of repressions. Up until her daughter Vera in the 1980s, having no clue about her Finnish ancestors, applied for a visit in Finnland. She finally revealed that she was actually born as a Finnish girl, told her daughter who was already in her 30s some Finnish words, how to count to ten and so on. Now decades later Vera’s daughter and me are raising 2 children, having the same blonde hair and the same big blue eyes as their Finnish great grandmother. We are all learning the Finnish language which is so much fun and means a lot to us. At some day we hope to solve our mostly unknown Finnish family mystery. Trying to find out where Lyyli was born and what happened to her parents during or after the civil war. Any help is very much appreciated. So thanks a lot for this video. Greetings from Germany.
Finnish language has two types - Good bye. - hyvästi - is a rude way to say good bye. Usually used when saying good bye for last time to a stranger or to a person you don’t want to meet again. - Näkemiin - friendlier and most often used good bye. Finnish civil war is remembered during its Independence Day December 6. For long time the reds were seen as terror group. Their actions caused deep rooted hate towards communism and Soviet Union. End of the conflict white terror killings were kept secret and down played. People who died red side were buried unmarked common graves. It was illegal for family members remember their fallen. Widows were fined by police placing flowers on graves. During WW2 many red civil war veterans fought against soviets. After WW2 there was change remembering fallen victims and red graves were located and grave stones placed. People were free to tell their stories from both side. As whole Finnish population suffered greatly. If imperial Germany had won ww1. Finland would have been under German rule. Not a free democratic country. There’re TH-cam Finnish history channels with English text. Other interesting political event took place early 1930s. When far right. Lapuan Liike, political party tried to take over the country. But failed.
Great video, on a topic seldom discussed. Also, volunteers of the German "Freikorps" contributed to the White victory. Incidentally, (let me get his name and titles in the right order!...) Field-Marshall Baron Karl Gustav Emil von Mannerheim is one of my favorite World leaders of that period. He was one of two (the other being General Franco) who dealt with Hitler, without falling under the latter's "spell."
The war is very rarely brought up in any everyday occasion in Finland. Most who still bring it up often don't act out of bringing on a new view about it, because the topic has been throughoutly handled through the following century, but they have some personal axe to grind about it and just want to beat a dead horse. The reason we were able to repel the Soviets and build a world class society was exactly because the partisan attitudes were buried quickly after the war.
The Finnish schools teach that the war was very bloody and that both sides committed horrific atrocities. I think very few anymore identify as being part of either side's legacy or something and consider it just as a horrible event caused by political turmoil and power strugle following independence and being brough upon by the red revolution. An event that should be remembered moarned. The reason for this might be that Finns today generally agree that the leaders steered the country to the right direction by establishing a parliamentary democracy. And then of course winter war united Finns against a bigger enemy and over shadowed the civil war. The only public debate I have seen is about what the war should be called. Civil war is probably the most common term but some also want to call it freedom war, red rebellion, national war, class war etc.
Indeed, many of us Irish see a number of parallels in our own, post independence (1922-23), Civil War with that in Finland. But there are differences. Finland had reds versus whites. We had two mainly right wing groups. One pro Treaty (accepting Dominion status inside the then British Commonwealth) and led by the famous Michael Collins and the other, fiercly republican (with some left wingers therein) and anti Treaty and wanting (as declared in the heavily put down Dublin 1916 Easter Rising) an immediate and free from British imvolvement, Republic. But unlike Finland, whose reds and whites fought together against Stalin in the Winter War, we Irish didnt have any such (tho in WW2, as a neutral we could have been invaded by either the British or by Hitler). Thus much bitterness remained in Ireland after the triumph of the pro Treaty forces. Thus resulting in the two main Irish political parties: Fine Gael (pro Treaty) and DeValera's Fianna Fail (anti Treaty).
Step five: 5. Growing mistrust - use of force as the solution...? The November general strike was a small victory for the more radical side (but many were disappointed for not going "all in"), as the parliament agreed to pass the municipal law a second time. It was also agreed to make an inventory of all the individual and public storage with alimentary to increase the trust within the general public. That last measure didn't have time to mean anything, as the calculation of the results was not finished before the war broke out. Both guards gained more power, and although the red guards were formed under Social democratic guidance, soon these started to be completely independent of the more moderate working-class movement. These also started to go around the countryside and find the "hidden" alimentary storages, which complicated the local alimentary boards’ work (during the war this was not allowed, without explicit permission and supervision from the local alimentary boards). What both guards needed were guns, officers, and training. Although Reds got the armament from Russia (a train full of arms, which started the war), whites got their officers from the former Russian army (Finnish-born career officers), and NCOs from Germany (the jaegers) and used those as trainers. It's not what you got but how to use it.
The only thing I was told about the Civil War is that my grandmother smuggled stranded white soldiers to their side of the front. The rest I've learned from books and videos like this.
I don't know if I understood it correctly but I got the impression that the sport-community was divided under two national umbrellas, left and right, in the 1970's that is. Is this correct?
Tumbnail photo colorized by Julius Jääskeläinen.
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i guess not everything is black and white, sometimes its red and white
✅ 👍
@@marcoskehl 😀
@@HistoryHustle And I thought the Irish civil war was short. The political contention of our civil war was the pro treaty and anti treaty sides over the Anglo Irish treaty of 1921
@@beepboop204 Like blood in the cold Finnish snow.
At 6:19 I would say the beginning of the White Guards was totally different. The Finnish Jaegers were not in Germany by accident; they were a group of men that had joined the illegal Jaeger movement in Finland, the goal of which was to free Finland from the Russian rule. They had fled to Germany to get military training and experience in order to return to Finland and drive the Russian forces out by force. This was originally meant against the Tsar and Russian troops, but ended up being against the Finnish reds.
Thanks for sharing this.
I agree with this fact.
This comment by Sampo is exactly what I wanted to add as well. Thank you Sampo.
It essentially started as 'hunting clubs', to secretly practise shooting and training the people. Lots of gun smuggling along the baltic coast was taking place as well for quite some time until the the voolunteers went off to Germany.
@@jontti9530 Actually it started student unions late 1914. It was founded in The Polytechnic Students' Union building. And technology students were heavily involved in it. That is reason why technology students had special relationship with government for long time. Of course hunters where prime targets for recruitment.
My mother's grandfather left his family and fled to Russia after the Finnish Civil War and was never heard of again, I presume he was killed in Stalin's purges.
That might be the case. I just reacently found out lot of my family lineage went to america because they were kinda like the peasant "torppari" class, and from that side of family lot of fought on side of the reds i think, but they went there before the civil war, and to my understanding that was often the case people who went to america was to improve their life. It kinda explains why socialist sentiment was strong in finnish americans they were often from the extrme poor class. I kinda wish one day if i visit america i woukd somehow find my distant relatives there we have photos, and that kinda stuff they sent over here, and woukd be nice to share with people even though we dont know we related
Many Finns who came to America were enticed by a "workers' paradise" in the Soviet Union. Sadly, many of them got caught up in Stalin's purges and were never heard from again.
How stupid was she?
Yes, many were. Including some who had emigrated to North America but were lured back by Stalin in the 1930's to work in the Soviet forestry industry in Karelia. There is a book about this episode by Irina Takala of Petrozavodsk State University and Alexey Golubev of the University of Houston.
@@williamhancock8065 Well, it wasn't Stalin who invited Finnish Americans to build Soviet Karelia. There was a huge need for the working people and machinery in Soviet Karelia and it was Edvard Gylling's idea to try to get Finnish Americans move to Soviet Karelia. Some of them were even pretty wealthy and brought money and machinery to USSR and most of them were socialists and communists.
Gylling was nationalist as much as socialist and tried to increase Balto-Finnic population in Soviet Karelia. It was like the lost Red Finland to him. He even got thousands of East Karelian refugees pardoned and they returned from Finland back to USSR. Gylling opposed Gulags and those were the reasons that got him executed. And most of the Finnish and Karelian people who came there in Gylling's era were also arrested and executed or banished to the Siberia. Some of Gylling's grandchildren "returned" to Finland after Soviet Union collapsed with the "Ingrian Finns right to return"-law which included also Finns who were descendants of the Red Guard refugees etc.
My grand father was a member of Suojeluskunta. He was a proud farmer and had studied in Evo forestry school. In his life there were no reds , only communists. The civil war was more or less a bad thing to be forget.
I understand. Thanks for sharing.
1:39 Swedish speaking landowners did exist, but in 1917 only 11% of the population were Swedish speakers. Land ownership differed greatly of what it was in Central Europe, because since the land reform 'storskiftet' in the late 1700's all farming land was owned by individual farms, by the farmers themselves. As Swedish was the language for the academic and people living in towns, it is safe to say that way over 90% of the landowners were Finnish speakers. These Finnish landowners had gone through an astonishing developement by the end of the 1800's. It can be described as a grandfather that could not write, father that had been in elementary school and all the children, girls included, studying in the University. This was the result of the nationalist ideology that wanted Finland to be free and develop as a nation. Universal right to vote was one of the big early accomplishments.
Thanks for sharing this additional information.
This is true, but in south Finland most big landowners & mansions was Swedish speakers (off cource when most Swedish speakers living in coastal areas) and land was far more accumulated for few big landowners. This was one reason why red guards was so strong South Finland and this are was also most industrial are of Finland.
@@SavolaxMitsu True when we go into details. I was trying to correct the impression that there had been the Swedish speaking landowners as opposed to Finns who would not own land - when by far most of the landowners were Finnish speakers. In reality the divide went between those who owned land and those who did not; language was rather irrelevant. The landowners were of course against bolshevism and as they supported the Jaeger movement they were 'pro German' although more precisely 'pro Finland through Germany'.
@@sampohonkala4195 Totta ja Helsingin punakaarti oli luonnollisesti varsin hyvin edustettu myös ruotsinkielisten osalta, en ulkoa enää muista miten prosentuaalisesti se jakaantui suomen -ja ruotsinkielisten kesken, mutta kun katsoo johtohahmoja, niin ruotsalaiset sukunimet ovat varsin yleisiä.
Pointtina oli enemmänkin, että varsinkin Uusimaa oli vanhaa kartanoiden hallitsemaa aluetta maanomistuksen suhteen ja näin erottui muista maakunnista, tosin myös Varsinais-Suomessa ja Hämeessä oli varsin kartanoiden hallitsemaa maaomistajuuden osalta, mutta ei niin jyrkästi kuin Uusimaa.
As was stated in the video, Swedish was the language of the educated and upper classes. What wasn't stated was whether those Swedish people were of Swedish origin who spoke Swedish as a first language or Finns who spoke Swedish as a second for social or practical reasons. Depending on how one asks the question the members of this latter group can, quite truthfully be described as either Swedish speakers or Finnish speakers. Or both.
The simple fact is, when push came to shove they all fought for Finland in whatever way they perceived that..
I had family on both sides of the conflict. My maternal grandmother's father was only 15/16 years old during the civil war and had the role of a runner within the Red Guards. According to my grandmother, he never spoke of 1918. He later in 1939/1940 supported the war effort in the form of supplying troops on the front, but he never saw combat there. Lost one of his horses to a landmine according to one story I've heard. Another more distant family member I know operated as a White Guard spy in Helsinki, smuggling information and weapons in and out of the city with his young daughter. Shortly after the war, he was shot and murdered in his apartment building stairway. The murderer was never caught, but it's suspected that it was a former Red Guard member.
That sounds really dangerous being a spy. It reminds me of the US civil war 1860-65 in my country. Many families had people fighting on both sides of the conflict.
Red were useful idiots of the international elite
When the corporations are supporting your movement, you aren't the resistance
@@HeroesofNovember @Heroes of November 1923 What corporations are you referring to? I can't imagine there were too many companies in Finland at that time that had the kind of money available that would have been enough to make a difference in a war of that size.
If you are simply referring to the definition of resistance then it could be said there are many civilian companies in Ukraine right now that are supporting the soldiers in resistance to the Russian invasion. Everything from civilian drone manufacturers making modifications for dropping grenades to auto repair shops now performing repairs on tanks and various BMP infantry fighting vehicles.
@@snapdragon6601 I was referring to the Reds blindly supporting the narrative pushed by the corporate elite.
Very rare for people to make a Finnish civil war video, its so much more interesting than people give credit for. thanks and cheers!
Thanks for replying!
My grandfathers grandfather was a commander in the Russian Tsarist Army and in charge of Suomenlinna and the Russian garrison there during this time. He was first imprisoned by the reds during the beginning of the war and held at Suomenlinna as a prisoner(as many people would). He remained a captive when the Germans/whites took over and was pardoned/released later on the orders of Mannerheim. Sadly he died soon after as the result of the horrible conditions in the prison camps. He went from being a rich officer to a penniless man without a home in just a few years. His family stayed in Finland after the war as they could not return to a red Russia.
My own grandfather married to a Swedish speaking Finn from Hanko(my late grandmother) and considers himself a Swedish speaking Finn, even though he was raised by two Russian parents. He is 95 years old and still has the Tsarist Sabres of his grandfather/father(also a cadett in the russian army), on his wall.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
I feel like Finnish civil war was a tabu for decades and it wasn't really discussed until quite recently. At least during the 90's and early 2000's civil war was just a side note in schools history classes and it was quickly moved on to more clamorous parts of the Finnish history. Even though my home town was a battleground for some heavy fighting, it was basically never talked about. Only once I met one man who was born a few years before the civil war and he told me how that war destroyed the way of living in his home village. How that community turned against one another and how plague alcoholism swept through it after the war as men tried to cope with killing their neighbors. Civil war left its marks on generations, it was a wound left open and it took at least one full generation to open the wound and be open about it.
Very interesting to read. Thanks for sharing this.
Correction: The view of losing Red Guards was of course sort of taboo for decades. But I can't see here any taboo since 1970s at least. Atrocities and crimes of both sides have been researched and discussed pretty open for many many decades already.
@@ericv.1420 We had a peculiar substitute history teacher in ninth grade, in 1986 - 1987, who was brave enough to teach quite thoroughly about the civil war and also made us to think about it. He explained carefully that the seeds of the conflict were planted about 50 years earlier, during the great famine, that killed 10 - 15 percent of the people, and locally the death rate was far, far higher. The bitterness and the new ideology, socialism, together with rising literacy and domestic and international connections, like family members living in America, united the poor. So, the poor of the country were not slaves. They might have been hungry and suffering from shortages, but they were able to cooperate.
While this might have not been the whole truth, it is still sad, how naive and simplistic ideas about the reasons of the civil war can be among ordinary Finns. There are still people believing that, for example, Russian bolsheviks were the sole initiators of the war, exploiting the assumed stupidity of those who joined the reds.
@@terohyvarinen4358 I like the view of the historian-politician T. Keskisarja: young Finns were in January 1918 generally EAGER to go to war. Adventurous young people simply wanted war! What a loons. Also I can see there certain pattern of mass madness forming. World War, Russian Revolutions etc. The young Finn thought:"ME TOO!"
@@ericv.1420 That kind of atmosphere is described in the Under the North Star trilogy (Täällä Pohjantähden alla) by Väinö Linna. Young people, men and women and even teenage boys and girls, were aiming for a major coup very fast. That "very fast" seems to be a major mistake in planning violent (special) operations. Most probably they really did not understand what they were actually about to undertake. I can guess some of the reasons were leftish propaganda, agitation and outright thoughtlessness. Now-or-never-thinking was, probably, somewhat appropriate at that situation, but they did not have the resources they would have needed. Not enough weapons and no military training or really working organization. Thousands and thousads were finally killed. How many would have been killed, had they won?
Thanks for bringing attention to this. I love how you make videos about less known historical topics.
Greetings from a Swedish speaking Finn 🇫🇮
Thanks for your reply.
As a Finn, Civil War is not remembered much these days. If asked, may people would say that the good guys won the Civil War as the red victory would have most likely made Finland just another Soviet Republic and just 20 years later, former whites and reds fought side by side in the Winter War to prevent that. Now there are some deep red families in which the story goes other way around and they still see whites as the bad guys and believe red victory would have made an independent Finland that would have been a much better place. I say families as per my experience these are usually people from families who had been politically far left from generation to generation. They are small minority, but probably usually the people who remembers the Civil War most.
Now the White Terror is universally condemned. Even if people see whites being the good guys in the war itself, terror is seen being evil. White leadership (Mannerheim, Svinhufvud) are somewhat seen not as guilty of the terror as they moved to stop it relatively quickly after the war.
And of course vats majority of the population knows next to nothing about the Civil War :P
Very interesting to read. Thanks for taking the time to write this down.
Red Finland would have taken a different civilizational path, restoring eastern diplomacy and becoming like Hungary. Although it’s impossible to speculate whether they would be a soviet satellite or part of Tito’s non aligned movement.
@stupid chukhna It would've been a quick integration with soviet union as the Red leadership was pro internationalisn. Red military was really led by men like Eino Rahja (Lenins bodyguard, got weapons from bolsheviks), Adolf Taimi (bolshevik), Evert Eloranta (wanted to ban private ownership, SDP). Supported by Russian General Sventsnikov who really planned the operations. That kind of setup can't really lead to anything democratic, especially not social democratic. EDIT: What your average red guard wanted or thought they were fighting for is really inconsequential in this matter.
As is the red terror that started way before white terror. Both did terrorize during but only latter after. There is no reason to think that Reds would have acted more kindly towards whites if had won.
@@stupidchukhna3111 Ferenc Szalasi Great Hungary❤ Pumi is best dog and Pic salami too.🌶️
My relatives fought on both sides. One was a jaeger, one was in the reds and was executed in Viipuri. In the inter war period, people mostly tried to forget the nightmare, apart from the elements who fled to Russia. Especially the Winter war did much to unify the country. After the second world war there was bona fide discussion to understand what had happened. In the 70s there were political movements whose political agenda controversy around the issue suited and who therefore kept returning to the issue. I would say that in 2023 the Civil war is mostly history although most people still remember on whose side their grandfathers fought.
I appreciate your videos very much. Keep up the good work!
By the way, the map in the background is not correct, if it purports to show Finland during the Civil war. The "hand" extending to the Barents Sea was only annexed to Finland in the Tartu Peace Treaty in 1920.
Thanks for taking the time to write this down.
My family was just civilians that didnt take sides, just minded their own business and was shot to death by both parties
History Hustle;You asked for a comment on how the Finnish Civil War is remembered,As i understand it there are still some who
are bitter about what happened in that time not a big group, time has fortunately healed some wounds, also the historians have difficulties about the very name they use about this war,some say lets call it the civil war others say no no lets call it the war of freedom others say lets call it the brothers war thats a poor translation from me but it refers to brother against brother all in all i think its a sad chapter in Finnish history,Good work keep it up Tom...🙂
Very interesting to read. Thanks for sharing this.
I think civil war is remembered matter of factly. Things happened and as people are quite middle class nowadays anyway, it's just interesting history for most of us. Older people might have stories about their parents and such but not much more. I'd like to point out that after the war the reds didn't vanish but were taken to the parliament to help build the new country together. Thus we didn't become a right wing military state, in fact later when far right groups sprung up in the 30's they and their methods were shunned by most and were made illegal. Point being is that relationships began to heal slowly and that made the people united in the WW2 and after.
A big difference with Spanish Civil War!
Reds escaped into Soviet Union, were in prison, dead and/or lost their citizen rights that prevented them from holding any office, voting, being a witness in court, practicing some occupations like merchant etc. Socialistic Democrats after the war was basically a new party with new goals and was leaning to western values as it was purged from the most radical elements. Military state was not really ever even in the books as it all depended on the end of WWI. Allies winning and collapse of the German Empire freed Finland from the promises that were made to them during the civil war. New elections was set as a requirement from the western powers to recognize Finland as independent state Mannerheim ordered new elections to be held. SDP once again got most seats but not the right to make the decisions as the minority government was formed with pro-republic parties excluding SDP itself that also favored Finland to be a republic.
Step three:
3. Growing civilian unrest because of the circumstances of the war
A little bit earlier during the summer, the coalition government broke up, when the social democratic ministers jumped off mostly because of the alimentary question, which was growing worse. The provisional government was using grain exports as a weapon to keep the Finnish government on a leash. They kept on promising the trainloads of food, but those promises were never fulfilled for some reason or other. Not that there was actual famine, but many things were still under rationing: sugar, butter, meat, milk, bread, and so on, and everybody was trying to make ends meet, and at the same time suspecting, that someone was hoarding something. This increased the tension between low-income families and middle-class families, but especially the population in cities (consumers) and landscape (producers), as the producers could cut off their share before handing over the rest for the consumption rations, and therefore could be far more secure that they have at least some foods on the table. The problem really was the uncertainty, will the food last until the next crop or not. This tension might have created the need for protective guards in the countryside, in case the population in the cities should try to come and confiscate their crops by force. At least this story was told in the cities among the worker associations, which started to create their own guards to protect themselves. At the same time, the provisional government was out of money and had to stop making orders in Finnish factories and cease the fortification works, which increased unemployment. Also, inflation run out of control, so even if somebody had saved something for a rainy day, those savings lost their value. The outrage was showing in spontaneous demonstrations, strikes, and sieges of municipalities. All the civilian troubles also meant, that people wanted to search for protection among the labor organizations, which grew in numbers very rapidly.
Mannerheim was in fact voted the greatest finn of all history. You should do an episode on him exclusively, it's a mostly untold story outside of finland. There was a movie supposed to be made, but they blew the budget and had to cancel it altogether. I think it would have made an amazing film, since he led such a special life in crazy times.
My great-grand father was fighting in the white cavalry, before becoming a priest after the war. My grandmother was immensly proud of him and always spoke of how history would have been completely different if it wasn't for men like him on the whites' side.
I think the wounds from the civil war didn't heal until the russians attacked again, which galvanized the population to fight together.
When I visited Finland (2017) I was told that Mannerheim had become quite controversial in recent years, due to his treatment of Red POWs. Supposedly he told his subordinate commanders not to give sick or wounded POWs
any medical treatment because the White Army couldn't afford to expend precious medical supplies on people who were going to Hell
anyway for embracing the false god of Marxism.
When I heard that, I thought wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. I also heard that in recent years "Red Revisionism" has become popular in Finland, trying to make the Reds appear as the good guys, for example in the movie "Tears of April".
I'm Chinese. You know what? Mannerheim is actually very famous in my country
Mannerheim is probably one of the greatest people in Finnish history, but he is more a membered of what happened in the Winter and Continuation War with Russia. I was always thinking of all the success that he made for our country. I've made a couple of visits to Red's memorial places or their graveyard(not sure which one it was), and it was quite horrific to see that most of them died after the war in prison camps many have the same last names and birthplace. Probably that is quite normal if your side loses, but still... letting our own countrymen die in a high number feels a bit brutal.
We still had to remember over 100 years ago the world and the country itself was a very different place, and there was not much food and people were divided. Probably people do not want to talk about those deads because Mannerheim is so big person in Finland.
You should watch the version with a black dude as Mannerheim instead
@@sucloxsucloxsson I can't imagine ridiculous P.C. nonsense like that. Mannerheim was after all, the commander of a White army (pun intended).
I remember a school exercise where we were supposed to ask our grandparents about the civil war. Mine just didn't answer at all.
Other topics I remember from our history classes are the discussion of choice of word about the conflict and how that reveals the agenda of the speaker. Also, it was made clear that it was a war where neighbours were killing each other. I remember that the advances of the Whites and the German landings were discussed. The terror by both sides and the prisoner camps after the war were also discussed in school. It was also highlighted how the divided nation was finally unified in talvisota.
The last veteran of the conflict was Aarne Arvonen of the Red Guard. He was captured during the war and even survived a year in the Tammisaari Prison Camp. Arvonen passed away in 2009, aged 111.
Wow, he got old!
How is this viewed in Finland? So fractiously and bitterly, that we still don't agree on single name for it. There is like 4 different names for the civil war in Finnish and in Finland and case of "what name you use about it tells a lot about your politics". Using the "wrong name" might get one and angry retort from someone, that don't call it that "that isn't what the thing was".
Down to point of the public broadcaster YLE, who is supposed to stay neutral, uses as tortured name as "the events of the year of 1918" often when talking about it.
Spot on. I lived my childhood in Pispala Tampere and what I remembered old folks never talked about the war ,at least when kids where around, this was in late seventies and early to mid eighties , in those times we had a chore in the school to sell pins for Mannerheim¨s child protection organisation (Mannerheimin lastensuojeluliitto) some of the people gave as quite rough welcoming and shouted we don¨t buy pins fron the butcher! Pispala was still mainly red back then.
It is funny though. Imagine being surprised someone might be upset you call killing your countrymen, neighbours and brothers the "freedom war" instead of just the "civil war".
I moved away from Finland as a boy in the 1950's. I believe that my relatives came both from both the red and white sides. I never heard the civil war discussed by any of my relatives (a few of whom had lived through it). I think that was the typical reaction to the war by Finns. They wanted to forget it. The later hostilities by the Soviets had united the reds and whites. I believe that some given names gave clue to which side their parents were on, eg, Voitto.
My grandfathers dad was also on red guard with his brother. Both survived and went to prison camps for a treason and got 4 and 9 yrs sentences. Survived through that also. My grandfather couldn't tell much about that, his father didn't tell him all the things, since issue was painful. In 1932 there was Mäntsälän kapina, Mantsala's rebellion, which was continuation to civil war, started by Lapuan Liike, Lapua movement , far right movement which wanted to throw out all communists from parliament. To Mäntsälä gathered about 500 men with guns, who were planned to march to Helsinki and overthrow government. Army was placed to alert to prevent that. March to Helsinki stopped to Mäntsälä and ended peacefully after president Svinhuvuds speech on radio. (Rebellion explained simply) Thank you for your video.
If you want to know about your grandffathers more, you can get their court papers from the National Archive.
@@kimmokestinen686 Yes, I found those few years ago. Interesting stuff to read and try to put myself on their position. What was motives etc.
Couple of things:
1. Finnish identity started forming far before the 1905 reforms. The later half of the 19th century had largely been the time of that process, with the grand duchy receiving its own currency and finnish being made into an official language.
2. The revolution did not only see support from factory workers and the city-dwelling part of the population. The tenant farmers and a growing population of jobless poor in the countryside supported it as well. This a part of why the civil war can be a touchy subject in Finland; every community had to face it.
In fact, it can be simplified that in 1918, the industrial workers organized in trade unions were on the opposite side, and all other Finns were on the other side. 75 percent of the Red Guards were industrial workers, while the largest group of whites were farmers or their sons, comprising 45 percent. The crofters/tenant farmers were represented on both sides, but their share was remarkably small. Perhaps the expected collectivization of farms made the land-hungry crofters think more carefully and joining the whites along with the landlords was not attractive either. In any case, it was the crofters who participated in the war to a particularly small extent.
Excellent video again Stefan. Thanks for the post. Cheers from Tennessee
🥉👍
As a Finn and a casual observer of our history, I find it interesting that in the name of openness and understanding Finnish research, articles, TV programs and documentaries appear to focus on the treatment of the reds by the whites. Topics include confusion as to cause and justification of conflict, debate whether it was a civil war or a proxy war, workers conditions, women among the reds, summary executions by the whites, prison conditions the reds suffered, questioning if marshal Mannerheim was in reality a war criminal instead of a valued leader, to name a few. Considering that there were forces in Finnish society that felt favorably towards closer ties with the Soviet Union/Russian federation and opposed joining the EEC, EFTA, the EU and vehemently opposing western military alliance, I feel that many of cases for understanding our past is a means to halt western leaning sentiments and to redefine past events.
The Finnish civil war really does stand out when you look at finnish history. Finns are often looked as people who stand united and who are peaceful unless provoked. I think the finnish civil war is a historical event wich goes against the grain of what it means to be a finn, and therefore there is a sense of national shame about it. The civil war is very rarely spoken about. Usually when war is spoken about, taught, or turned into media and movies and such it is the WW2 conflicts. I believe in the future we may be able to speak more openly about it, but not yet.
Many thanks for this excellent documentary. A couple of comments: Finland had been gradually incorporated by Sweden from the 12th century onwards. Understandably, this eastern province was dominated by a Swedish speaking aristocracy and intelligentsia. However, the Reformation in the 16th century provided a basis for Finnish language in the church. Also, even though Southern Finland gradually became dominated by large estates of noble Swedish speaking landholders with the actual tilling increasingly done by landless tenant farmers (who, by the way, became a primary force behind the Red rebellion). Further north the land was still owned or at least used by Finnish speaking farmers. After the Russian annexation in 1809 Finland experienced, amazingly, a great period of national growth and development, mutating from a Swedish province to a nation. This was due to many fortunate factors, e.g. Finland's exceptional legal status within Russia, the need for the Swedish speaking elite to differentiate from both Sweden and Russia etc etc. At the same time both the economy and population grew rapidly. This was of course helped immensely by the proximity of the Russian capital. But, the Russians being Russians and seeing a good thing, started rapidly undermining it towards the end of the 19th century with a policy of Russification and systematic destruction of Finland's constitutional position. In the process they managed to turn a peaceful and faithful part of their tottering empire into a seething hotbed of resentment in just a generation. One should realize that Finns were, and still are, solidly for fair play by the rules. The most effective way to provoke them (=us) is to flaunt the rules. Thus the clandestine emigration of hundreds of our finest young men to Germany for military training during WW1. So, the two big driving forces for our civil war were: illegal actions by the Russian government (Whites), the abject position of the tenant farmers on the great estates of southern Finland (Reds) and the collapse of the Russian empire in 1917 (both). And what about the result? I think the vast majority of Finns, with the benefit of hindsight, are happy that the Whites won. The alternative would probably have meant eventual Soviet occupation and unending calamity and decay. A bit like Ukraine. Also, most think that the White victory was marred by the unnecessary atrocities after the war. The White leaders should have kept a check on their forces, they were fighting for legality after all. I myself come from central eastern Finland, which was solidly White, and the civil war is not a big issue there. However, from friends in the South whose forebears fought on the losing side I know that they still have family memories of women trying to throw food packages to their starving husbands in the prisoner camps. I am sure that also people from families whose members were murdered by the Red guards still bear that memory. However, one of Finnish culture's good aspects is that hatreds are not carried over from generation to generation even if memories are. And one should also remember the aftermath of the war: our parliament quickly legislated an effective land reform, which removed the justified resentments of the tenant farmers. Thus the Russians, once again, totally overestimated their ability to destabilize Finnish society by invading in 1939. They achieved the exact opposite. Those guys never learn, at least not the correct lessons.
Thanks for sharing your insights on this.
great job bro for featuring Finnish civil war great outfit bro it fits the topic
🫡🥇
Tension had risen much earlier first clashes was during general strike in 1905 and the repellion of Viapori (Suomenlinna) then there was tenant farmers strike and evictions in western Finland in 1911. And during war there was shortage of food and almost everything and coverment had no meanings to mitigate it. And still today there is some lines in our sosiety because of that war it was short but bloody mainly because it was fought between amateurs who shoot verything wich move. And about Helsinki the last bastion of resistance was in Vesilinna (Water reservoir) defended by redguards women in Linnanmäki wich is now inside amusement park.
Thanks for sharing this additional information.
Thank you, Professor. Excellent lecture.
Many thanks for your reply
If you haven't read it you should read Väinö Linna's Täällä Pohjantähden Alla, there is an English translation by Richard Impola. The former Finnish PM Esko Aho has said that to understand Finland and the Finns one must read that book. It is a family saga that covers three generations from about 1880 through to just after the Second World War. In that book it is implied that much of the healing over the Civil War took place during the Winter and Continuation Wars, where men who had been on opposing sided fought side by side against the Soviet Union. Or at least their children did. The main character Akseli Koskela (my son is named Akseli after him) loses two brothers to the White Terror in the Civil War, and comes close to dying in an internment camp, not to mention losing his citizenship for a number of years. But he also loses three sons fighting in the wars against the Soviet Union. I'm a foreigner here in Finland, but I've been here for 24 years, and it seems to me that the wars against the USSR are what unified Finland into one people. Before that they were Reds or Whites, Finnish or Swedish speakers. Afterwards they were a people who had fought tenaciously against a common enemy to remain free.
Thanks for sharing.
"Täällä Pohjantähden alla" is made as a two part movie too, in years 1968 and 1970 (director Edvin Laine). And again in 2009, directed by Timo Koivusalo. These are available as DVD's too.
At the national level the divide between the white and red Finns ended in 1939, when the reds and whites alike gathered to fight the USSR under the command of Mannerheim. Nowadays the question is more academic and personal; people may be bitter of what happened to their distant relatives over a hundred years ago. That is however a separate issue that does no longer affect anyone's daily life. Both sides were obviously guilty: the reds started the violence by attempting a revolution, the whites did little to end the unnecessary suffering when the result was alreaydy clear.
Thank you for sharing your insights.
Thanks for your excellent coverage of a little known war⭐
👍👍👍
Thanks for another entertaining, and informative video.
😀👍
Excellent doc. Thank you, Steffan!
Thanks for watching Carlos.
@@HistoryHustle your videos are always very interesting and documented. Even when I express criticism,.such as regarding your vision of marxist method or the relationship nazism-capitslism, it is always out of respect for you and for your impressive work. By the way, we are colleagues by profession.
👍
Great video
Thanks!
If you want to gain a better perspective on how it is remembered, then reading the three novels of "Täällä Pohjantähden alla" (Under the North Star) or watching the mini series of movies about the novels. Since the novels follow a family that fought with the reds and survived, they end up having that bitter resentment until the Soviets attacked in 1939. The Civil war is a distant memory now, however, my family used to say that the Civil War was the Schism that fractured the nation until the Soviets attacked in 1939 which finally unified Finland for Finnish people.
The Civil war is the ending of Act One, WW2 was Act two, Act three ended with us joining Nato, let's see where our new story goes to.
In the Lahti Mustakallio graveyard is a patch of land with no gravestones. This is where a group of Reds including women were marched, shot and buried *en masse*
Thanks for sharing.
I have a friend who lives in the upper peninsula of Michigan. It is a rural area remote from the rest of the US. About 16% of residents are Finnish. He told me that the many Finnish families still identify as "Red Finns" or "White Finns", depending on the loyalties of their ancestors. I suppose during and after the civil war Red or White Finns with connections to the heavily Nordic upper Midwest region of the US would-be motivated to immigrate.
Interesting to read.
Reading these comments it seems remembering the conflict is rather situational or regional. I live aboout halfway between Helsinki ja Tampere (for reference to the video), in Riihimäki. We had a russian garrison here up until 1917 and the whole city is here basically because of the railway. Now I don't know how that might have affected peoples opinions, but I have never met anyone who would've had anything good to say about the reds. However mostly you just might hear a random remark about the civil war and not much else.
Even in public school what I remember being taught about it was along the lines: it happened in 1917 and Mannerheim won.
I had a relative from my father side who was one of the German trained jaeger (jääkäri). However he passed away way before my birth so I really don't know much about it, except we still have his C96 Mauser he brought from Germany.
Thanks for sharing this.
I'm a descedant of White guard folks, but still need to say that Reds weren't some mindless communists. They only demanded better wage, working and living conditions for the poor and workers, and to have Saturday free, in addition to Sunday. They had a six day, 10 hour per day working weeks. Very hard. Very polluted, cramped living conditions.
Surely it got out of hand when Reds started killing some wealthy industrialists and farmes. But Whites gave it back when after the war they held 20 000 Red prisoners, and 13 700 of them died. In total 37 000 died during the war which was a lot for at the time country of 3.1 million.
Another good video Goltz has an interesting history in that era. You may want to do a video on him. Anyway, You nearly tricked me there with the earliest ding dong yet at 2:09. Take care.
Germany Baltic sea as their own lake. Puppet regimes around and good realtions with neutral 🇸🇪
Fun (but annoying) fact:
Stalin and Lenin first met with eachother at Tampere at some socialist meeting
That I did not know. Learned something new!
Круто
There is a Lenin Museum in the Tampere Workers' House, I believe the only one left in East Europe. It has more of a camp value nowadays, but Soviet tourists were brought there back in the day by bus loads.
Interesting story concerning the meeting: Finnish cops who were acting as Lenin's bodyguards (local police chief was a Socialist) apparently saw though what sort of thug Stalin was and supposedly roughed him up, when he first came asking Lenin and did not take no as an answer too well.
Super thanks 😊...,(Sir Stefan) for sharing this informative 👍🏻 historical coverage about Finland 🇫🇮 previous official independent ...it was informative,enjoyable introduction 0:04
Many thanks again!!
Thank you for this interesting but not entirely unflawed presentaion. To answer your question. I myself, born in 1955 and having grown up in the Swedish speaking countryside north of Vasa did not meet any persons who had actually taken part in the civil war. My paternal grandparents got married in 1918, so their lives dont seem to have been too much disturbed by the conflict. This means I have no direct recollection of this conflict to retell. The other side of my family comes from Korpo in the south west archipelago, which actually saw some serious fighting in the spring of 1918 in which many reds died. There is now a little monument commemorating them. The general attitude on the island is that those men and boys were fighting for a just cause under unfortunate circumstances and are worthy of our respect just as our war veterans.
Thanks for replying!
Great update Stefan ❤️ thank you, have a great weekend 👍cheers !!!
One thing that many don't realize is that many Leftist Finns emigrated to the US and Canada after their defeat in the Finnish Civil War. Most settled in the Upper Midwest of the US or Ontario in Canada. Many worked in the forestry industry as they had in Finland. In the 1930's Stalin encouraged the Leftist Finns to emigrate to the Soviet Union to help build socialism. They had forestry skills and tools far superior to the Soviets. Most settled around Petrozavodsk and Kondopoga in Karelia. Within a few years the North American Finns fell out of favor with the paranoid and xenophobic Russians. Most were murdered by the Bolsheviks during the Great Terror of 1938-9. There are graves all over Karelia. But some survived and integrated into Soviet society. There is still a Finnish (Lutheran) church in Petrozavodsk that was revived after communism. There is also a Finnish Theater with a combination of Russian actors and actors who come from Finland (or at least they did before the war in Ukraine). There is a section of Petrozavodsk where many of the North American Finns lived that they referred to as American Town. It was known among other things for jazz music which the North American Finns introduced to Karelia.
Petrozavodsk was occupied by Finns during the Continuation War (WWII) when Finns tried to recapture parts of Karelia taken from them in the Winter War of 1939-40. The Winter War is a period of Soviet and Finnish history many people are not aware of. Some parallels to it and war in Ukraine. The Finns killed up to a million Soviet troops. Finland had a population of about 3-4 million then. They did it because of superior tactics and Russian stupidity. But the size of the USSR eventually led to Finnish capitulation and territorial concessions. But when WWII broke out the Finns attempted to recapture Karelia.
Great video, very informative. I will check your other videos too. Greetings from Sweden
Great!
Finnish civil war remains tabu in much of southern Finland. I am from North Finland Pohjanmaa and we are both happy and proud of this war with no regrets. We don't call it civil war, but war of freedom, or independence war. We would all be dead, if the reds won.
The war goes by different names I know.
You are wrong, most Finns call it the civil war and that is also taught in schools.
Finnish Canadian here. Our country had a whole wave of Finnish immigration during the 1917-1919 period, mostly of Finnish Reds who realized they were on the losing side. My paternal grandmother's family was one of these (she was born shortly after they got off the boat). It's one of the reasons why Finnish immigrants were such active supporters of the trade unions in Canada during the 20s & 30s.
My mother's side of the family were whites. From what I can gather, the prevailing attitude among her parents (who would have been born during or in the immediate aftermath of the War) is basically "Thank god it ended quickly." They were all northerners (around Rovaniemi, far away from the fighting) and while they could definitely be called patriots (several WW II veterans + lifelong civil servants) they didn't seem to have any particularly virulent dislike for the Finnish Reds. From what I understand, this attitude was different the further south you went.
It was very traumatic war. Brothers were against brothers. It divided Finnish society until 1980's. The name of the war was disputed for decades. Leftists called it class warfare. Right-wingers for a war of independence. Today it is neutrally called the Civil War.
In reference to the previous comment. In Finland, the name civil war began to be commonly used in the last decades. YLE generally uses the term civil war. Civil war is also the term used by the research. Recently, however, the name civil war has begun to be questioned in some media (and in the public's mouth) and politically value-laden expressions have increased. This only tells us that the Finnish civil war has once again become a more painful and difficult topic of discussion. Unfortunately. Thank you for a really good channel! Greetings from your colleague from Finland.
Thanks for explaining this.
Nowadays the official name is the Finnish civil war, but some former whites have opted to call
it ”Vapaussota” (translated ”the war of freedom”)
Overall the Finnish civil war isn't as big as what WW2 was in Finland, but ofcourse there are stories of some battles and the white prisonercamps (like Suomenlinna) after the war.
Also Tällä Pohjantähden alla is a finnish tv series that showed quite well stuff from the Red Finnish side.
Thanks for sharing this.
Interesting.
Finnish drama series "Där vi en gång gick" also takes place during the civil war - th-cam.com/video/kenRwZCqGzE/w-d-xo.html
Pohjantähden alla have one big problem, is show that most torpparit / tenant farmers was fighthing in red guards side, even in reality tenant farmers was 50/50 divided up whit whites & reds.
Most reds where industrial & farm workers.
@@SavolaxMitsu
”Täällä pohjan tähden alla” (= Hear Under Northern Star by Väinö Linna) is mainly about tenant farmers (= torpparit) in Southern Finland, in commune of Urjala. So basically it does not represent what happened elsewere. But I think it describes the situation in Southern Finland quite well.
Distant ”relative’s relative” of mine is mentioned in the book: He and his wife were executed by The Whites. And the reason basically was that he could write fluently and therefore was a secratary for the commune. No wonder their sons considered The Whites as butchers (= ”lahtari”).
About your question ... People do not have much knowledge about what happened. We can not even agree if shall call it a civil war (which is correct if you ask me), the red uprising, freedom war, the war between classes, the war between brothers and so on. Thank you for an interesting documentary.
Btw ... I found the grave of my grandfathers brother some years ago. Not far from Hamburg airport. He was a member of the Jaeger movement, but died of tuberculosis.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
Growing up in Finland and it's great school system in 1980s it was my understanding that any significant ideological and sentimental differences related to the Finnish Civil War were basically abolished by the long and severe WWII against the Soviet Union. By then any utopian idealization of the Communist regime were finally broken, and all the Finns joined the fight against the Soviets like brothers and sisters with one and only goal, to remain as an independent nation. Thank God they succeeded!
Thanks for sharing.
I am 54 years old and Finnish. Most of my ancestors sided with the Reds. This was never discussed at home. I found it when studying my family. Also, suspiciously many of my relatives live in Russia. They are descendants of the Finnish refugees/immigrants that went first to Canada and then to Karelia, Russia. Some stayed there, some moved back. I hold no grudge for the children of white guard offspring, but there was a division in my childhood, like a class division. In WW II, there was a Fascist women's organization along with White Guards. My grandmother made very clear she was no part of it. So, there are and were Finns that are full into patriotism, nationalism, church and then there are and were Finns that were hush hush in situations like these.
Red Victory= Back to as one Lenin Soviet’s. Thank good white victory.❤
@@454FatJack White victory = German colony.
Thanks for sharing this.
@@454FatJack Instead they got to be Nazi lackeys, huge upgrade
Very interesting. Apart from Finland gaining independence as a result of the October Revolution I didn’t know much about the resulting Civil War.
Thanks 👍
I lived in Tammela(Tammela included Forssa during this time) in my child hood and i heard loads of whites atrocities, it was calm during the civil war but after civil war whites got in and started killing around 463 reds were killed was 6 most killed in Finland.
Great research as always! Most horrendous war in Finnish history. Greetings from Finland🇫🇮
Thanks for watching.
Brothers killing brothers. Saddest part of Finnish history. May that never happen again.
Agree.
The civil war isn't talked about much. It's just seen as a great tragedy and the darkest pages in Finnish history where we killed each other and there was no truly "good" side.
Only the fringe extremes of the political spectrum in modern day Finland still think about and bring up this war, for the rest of us sufficient time has passed that it doesn't affect or influence our lives anymore.
Some changes were implemented after the civil war that started healing the wounds, but it was the conflicts during WW2 that truly united the people. Socialists or right-wing didn't matter anymore when everybody considered the USSR an existential threat. If the war was lost, nobody would live peacefully, if they'd live at all.
That being said, I've heard from elderly family members that even post-WW2 the civil war was taught in a very biased way, referred to as the "freedom war" and blaming the reds for everything while glossing over any crimes the white committed. But that was in the 50s and 60s, those times have long gone as well.
Nowadays I think what little is taught is relatively unbiased.
Thanks for sharing your insights!
It had to be remembered, that Finnish war in 1918 was bloodiest (relatively!) of all Civil wars. Not even Balkan wars after Yugolavia's collapse in 1990's weren't so raw blood-bath!
My favorite channel keep it up👍
😀🥈
Sweden did do a small intervention on Åland islands during Finlands civil War. That on the request from the Swedish speaking people living on the islands for military protection. After the war there was a big discussion about the status and sovereignty of Åland. It resulted in that Åland did get autonomy in 1921, but stayed as a part of Finland. That autonomy do Åland islands still have to day with in the republic of Finland.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_%C3%85land
Just call it invasion. Because that was exactly that. No point trying to under play it
Greetings from Tampere. You can still see bulletholes from the civil war in older buildings
Hope to visit that city one day.
@@HistoryHustle If you do i recommend you visit the museum centre Vapriikki, they have an exhibition about the civil war and battle of Tampere. It was supposed to be there just for the 100th anniversary but it was so popular they kept it there. Allso there is a statue of Mannerheim in Leinola in the spot that he was observing the battle
Great presentation
Thanks for your reply.
As a Norwegian and very interested in Finnish history, I believe that the Soviet Union in a strange way saved Finland when they attacked them late autumn 1939 and started what would be known as The Winter War. There was then still a large red and angry part of the Finnish population with a lot of bitterness, 20 years after they were defeated in Civil War. And then the Russians attacked, and former red and whites found themselves fighting shoulder to shoulder against a common enemy they would learn to hate. This war costed the Finns both men and land, but they came out of it much more united than before the war. And since then Finland have been a homogen country with a strong social capital. Everything Russia isn't ...
Thanks for sharing your insights.
It was 1917 year start to end when seeds of the civil war started, and social order collapsed. All the while political stucture lost the masses trust in series of decisions, which collided against parties. Politics played a big part. Political environment didn't collapse in 1916, but in 1917.
Russofication just increased willingness to became independent, but didn't cause civil war. And even independence decision of How became quarrel with socialist and the right-wing parties.
The Biggest internal reason was universal famine, lack of food in industrial centers. Farmers were fine. This inspired revolution in cities, but the reds were minority in Agricultural society.
Victory by the reds would have resulted fate of Ukraine & Belarus 1919 in the hands of Soviets, and became part of future Stalin terror state. I hate when our socialist ignore this.
My mothers uncle, white and farmer, got wounded in Tampere 1918 to the stomach, and due smaller stomach, he had to eat small food portions rest of his live.
I also had family in both sides of the conflict. My mother's father was serving in white side in Tampere when he was 15 years old. He was a horse carriage man, so delivering supplies... and probably carrying dead and wounded from the fronts. Then after going through WW2 in front-lines, I can just imagine how these experiences have affected on him. Then again from my father's mother was a young girl during the conflict, but his two brothers fought in red side in Helsinki, as they were poor working class 18 and 20 year old. They were put to prison camps and died there... no information to what. My grandmother visited the camp in Helsinki bringing them some food and told me about starvation and torturing that was done. She said they hit to heel of the foot with blunt object to get confessions or information. Then they were transferred to worse prison camp and the end of the communication between them was there. White part was also quite undemocratic and pro-despotism even in this comment section I am sensing how people consider them liberators. Winner writes the history I guess.
Well, long time since had a chance to talk with my grandmother, so maybe some details lost here. These events affected her hard and she still called my mom "lahtari" (a slaughterer), when they had some arguments. Interesting about this video was that it was close for Finland to become as a vassal state of Germany or part of the Soviet Union. Lucky us that things worked out as they did in the end. Tragic and unnecessary conflict, but in the end things end up well.
White side raged as maniacs, when they formed a movement named Lapuan Liike (Lapua Movement) in year 1929. This was wholly anti-communistic (they yelled socialdemocrats to communists too!) , and these violent beaters marched to Helsinki in Talonpoikaismarssi (Pheasant March) in summer 1930. This march was a direct copy of Italian Benito Mussolini's march to Rome in 1922.
And these block-heads fell in deep love to Adolf Hitler, too.
These marchers demanded Finnish parliament to make anticommunistic laws and therefore stop all left political parties work. Lapua-minded men forced leftists to the eastern border with car-rides, beatings and with guns too. Some carried men were killed.
Then began so called Mäntsälä Mutiny (February 1932). One speaker, mr. Erich (leftist) had to come and speech in Mäntsälä Worker's House. Lapua-men with civil guardists (Suojeluskunta) wanted to prevent this speech occasion. There were some confusing mess between Lapua leaders, Army officers, Suojeluskunta, and finally president's speech ended this all. It was quite easy, because Lapua leaders drank heavily in Hämeenlinna! And hundreds of civil guard men waited, and waited, and waited.
Lapua top man, a pheasant Vihtori Kosola had had his occasion, but he didn't know how to use it. Especially too many booze prevented him to pose as a Mussolini - clone! Kosola died 1936. He had been a machine gunner in civil war 1918, in White troops.
And irony: Finnish parliament ended Lapua movement, using just anti-communistic prohibition law! Far right then formed a party: Patriotic People's Movement (Isänmaallinen Kansanliike, IKL). It was quite little in Parliament elections, and in 1944 (after peace treaty with Soviet Union) it was prohibited by Andrei Zhdanov, then acting as leader in Allied Commission in Finland.
Thank you. That is the history of my family.
Thanks for watching.
Good topic. The intrawar period of often given short shrift, and you do a good job correcting this oversight.
Kind of humorous that Englestein states that conflict did not _escalate_ due to foreign interference but was merely a _byproduct_ of Bolshevik agitation in the Finnish factories. Then the Germans tipped the balance. But don't call it foreign interference. I presume the Russians and Germans were about 100 year ahead of others claiming fluid transnational identity.
Thanks for replying!
Foreign interference?
The truth is that Finnish top class yelled to Germany for help. And after the civil war they quickly sold Finland as a vassal state under German rule. They even chose German prince to be King of Finland.
Luckily the Kaiserreich lost the war in November 1918.
En ole suomalainen enkä ole koskaan käynyt Suomessa. Halusin vain nähdä, kuka tuhlaa aikaansa tämän kääntämiseen.
🤣
At least 2
Artificial intelligence
During civil war Tampere have nickname Punikki kylä (Red city) and some people still calls Tampere by that name.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing this.
@@HistoryHustle Actually, the area was called Punakylä, as most of the buildings were painted tradiotionally red, but it is considered that there were many families with husbands dead or in prison camps living there. Because of the near total destruction of the western parts of the city in the white bombardsment prior of the conquest there was a huge need for emergency housing. I have never heard Tampere being called punakylä or punikkikylä, although as the industrial center most of the inhabitants were workers and were synpathetic towards revolution. But most of the time during the civil war the situation was very calm and was guided by very moderate socialdemocratic leaders. The few terroristic actions that happened were done by red guards from outside of the city.
Even today many call Tampere as Punainen Tampere / Red Tampere.
@@SavolaxMitsu Maybe in the backwaters of Savo, but I guess that is because the University of Tampere had a reputation of being a rather radical in the '60's and '70's and these kinds of 'stamps' outlive a long time after the reasons have gone away. You seriously don't think Kalervo Kummola as being reddish, do you;-)
@@kimmokestinen686 Kuule ihan kuule täällä stadissakin puhutaan punaisesta Tampereesta.
Alunperin kylläkin tuo punainen maine tuli ammattiliittojen vallalla Tampereella, Tampereen yliopiston maine sitten pari sukupolvea sen jälkeen löi sen lukkoon.
Luuletko, että yksi pääsky tekee kesän?
Perinteisesti vasemman laidan puolueet ovat olleet enemmistön asemassa Tampereella, aina 1920-luvulta 1990-luvun alkuun. Niin tällähän ei ole mitään tekemistä punaisen Tampereen maineen kanssa?
My grandfather was from Tampere and was drafted into this war. He was quite disgusted by the whole thing and left Finland a few years later.
Interesting to read. Can I ask you: what did he tell you about his experiences? Feel free to share.
@@HistoryHustle It is quite ugly stuff that I don't really want to go into detail about. it can be summed up as brutality and fanaticism on both sides. This video did not portray the extent of this.
I understand.
My grandfather was from Tampere, too. I’m unsure of his role in the war. He left for the US in 1927.
@@jonathanrice1070 A lot of Finns seem to have left in the 20s. I suppose that is logical after a civil war that was never really resolved in many people's hearts and minds.
Another great video. I did not know about this war!
Thanks for watching.
P.E. Svinhufvud, the president, is the great great grandfather of the wife to my brother. Their homestead, nowaways serving as a museum, is not too far from the town we live. The wife of the president (Ella) was famous for her cooking skills and there is cake named after her, because she invented it.
Thanks for sharing this.
Thank you for this. This was very informative. I'm really interested in this topic.
Most I have learned about this dark period in our history is the stories of white terror in my home town Jämsä.
Jämsä did not see much battles and was in white control whole time.
Whites in charge executed anyone suspected being red. And some people used this as their advantage. If you had a neighbor you disliked you could tell the whites that they are reds. So the whites usually execuded them. People were shot by the church because it has cemetery there. People were also executed in Jalmari Saari's mansion and bodies were disposed in the frozen river. Owner of the mansion is called Hitler of Jämsä today.
There was also book of this time of terror in Jämsä: "Jukka Rislakki - Kauhun aika - Neljä väkivallan kuukautta Jämsässä 1918" but I think it only in Finnish
Thanks for your reply.
I like the maps in the background!
😀👍
As far as I understand from my Finnish relatives the civil war divided families and left wounds, but when the winter war began Finland came back together and the former white and red gaurds fought together against the Russains.
As a former American history teacher/firefighter I love the way you teach.
Thanks Lloyd. Interesting job combination you had!
My Father's side of the family were Reds. A bunch of them escaped to Russia after Tampere and were never heard of again. I have a photo of them with red armbands and rifles. Born in Tampere myself in the 60s, people still talked about "Murder-Gustav" and his band of butchers, there was a lot of anti-White resentment fueled by leftists. A statue of Mannerheim was to be erected in the centre of Tampere, but due to (very real) fear of vandalism, it was placed outside the city, and it still got smeared with red paint.
Half my family are buried in Kalevankangas where the Whites broke through. My old school was a field hospital for the reds. The Whites' victory monument is a man pointing a sword at the Workers' House, very subtle...
Very interesting to read this. Thanks for sharing this.
The civil war is pretty well handeled and in the past. In america there are folks seriously saying "the south shall rise again" in finland no one wants that genocide to return. I actually live in a piece of civil war history. My house was used by the local red guard as a headquarter.
Interesting to read.
Great uni , well done . Great community comments !
👍
There were no battles in northern and eastern Finland, at least no significant ones. The majority of Finns did not participate in the civil war, including my relatives
Greetings from Finland
I understand. Thanks for sharing.
First of all thanks for shining a light to such a "minor" civil war. Always nice to see Finnish history being talked about in TH-cam.
But you had couple big mistakes in the video:
- Finnish identity started forming in the mid 19th century as a response for Finland being removed from Sweden and a way for the Russians to distance Finns from Sweden and so make them less likely to rebel.
- Both Reds and Whites wanted an independent Finland. They just disagreed how it would be run. This is why breaking the parliament after the Power Act was important. SDP had the majority of the seats in the broken parliament and the next parliament had a conservative majority. This meant that the Reds felt that they couldn't get anything done politically. Then seeing what happened in Russia, and the arrival of Bolshevik agitators filled their heads of ideas that if not with good then with force.
- The Yleislakko (Common (labour) strike) was handled together with the Whites and Reds. Both participated in it and both sides really formed their paramilitary units to handle security in it. After the Yleislakko had ended many Reds felt that they should have rebelled then so clearly the leadership of the SDP wasn't up to the task and levelheaded people were ousted from the leadership of the SDP. This lead to the SDP deciding to go for a coup.
- In December 1917 the Finnish parliament made lots of new laws to appease the Reds, but this didn't help as the Reds were already preparing for the coup.
- Also you didn't point out that Mannerheim wanted to win the war with Finnish soldiers. Otherwise people could say that the Whites only won because of the Germans. Hence why the fast offensive towards Tampere which was the main stronghold of the Reds.
- Also after the fall of Tampere the Reds in the Western Finland started fleeing towards the East. This is why the capture of Lahti was important as it cut off a way to escape for all the Reds.
Otherwise a very good video.
As for how the Civil War is remembered here in Finland. We have come to terms with it. This already happened in the 60's when the trilogy "Täällä pohjantähden alla" (Here under the Northern Star) was released as it portrayed Reds before, during and after the war. Historians have also done lots of studies on the war and now the consideration is that mistakes were made and both sides had too much anger in them that unfortunately such a tragedy happened. These days people understand why the civil war started and undertand that Reds had real grievances and didn't just start a war because they felt like it.
The thing is just that WW2 is such a massive part of the Finnish psyche and history that it puts the Civil War in its shadow. Especially as there wasn't anything as glorious with the Civil War as there was on say the Winter War.
Thanks for your elaborate reply.
@@HistoryHustle
Thank you for making videos about history.
@@HistoryHustle
Forgot to mention. The Finnish government after the war wanted to make Finns one nation again. To this end the first Finnish president Ståhlberg worked on reconciliation between the Finns. Especially the agrarian Center party was pivottal in this as they could work both with the conservatives and the socialists to make Finland better.
Also SDP started rebuilding itself and as the more radical portion of the party was dead, in prison or fled to the USSR then the more levelheaded side came to power. And this new SDP renounced revolution as a tool.
All this meant that SDP became a real reliable political party in the 20's and in 1926 the SDP's Väinö Tanner became the prime minister! And in his role as the PM he observed the early military parade celebrating the victory in the Civil War! Yes, people at the time also thought WTF when the losing side was the highest government observer of the winners parade.
I hope that this brings even more light on why Finns managed to raise from the division so fast and why the Civil War really is viewed through a neutral lense these days.
When the corporations are supporting your movement, you aren't the resistance
Edit: talking to you REDS.
Ok.
It isnt really talked about alot but i remember looking at the archives what my ancestors did and two of them fought for the whites. One died of "accidental discharge" and another "fell from a guard tower"
It depends in which side you asked. Tampere is somehow red today as it was in early 20th century. ... Lines between red and white are there but vague form but still. Even name of civil war is not yet settled.
Thanks for your reply.
My wife’s grandmother Lyyli or Lydia was born in Finland, probably in 1909. Her father was working in the church where he played the violin. We assume that when the civil war started, the parents sent her daughter to relatives in Estonia to be safe.
That didn’t work very well, because months later Russians occupied Estonia. The young Lyyli and her Estonia family were deported to Russia separated from each other. She grew up in a children’s home along with other children from Finland, Estonia and even Swedish speaking children.
Later her identity seems to have been faked to throw out all hints about her Finnish heritage. We assume that her Estonian husband, who was a high police man with contact to the russian secret services, arranged that to keep her out of the Stalin terror. During the siege of Saint Petersburg she worked there a a nurse.
She never told anyone of her children about her heritage in fear of repressions. Up until her daughter Vera in the 1980s, having no clue about her Finnish ancestors, applied for a visit in Finnland. She finally revealed that she was actually born as a Finnish girl, told her daughter who was already in her 30s some Finnish words, how to count to ten and so on.
Now decades later Vera’s daughter and me are raising 2 children, having the same blonde hair and the same big blue eyes as their Finnish great grandmother. We are all learning the Finnish language which is so much fun and means a lot to us.
At some day we hope to solve our mostly unknown Finnish family mystery. Trying to find out where Lyyli was born and what happened to her parents during or after the civil war.
Any help is very much appreciated. So thanks a lot for this video. Greetings from Germany.
Finnish language has two types - Good bye. - hyvästi - is a rude way to say good bye. Usually used when saying good bye for last time to a stranger or to a person you don’t want to meet again. - Näkemiin - friendlier and most often used good bye.
Finnish civil war is remembered during its Independence Day December 6. For long time the reds were seen as terror group. Their actions caused deep rooted hate towards communism and Soviet Union. End of the conflict white terror killings were kept secret and down played. People who died red side were buried unmarked common graves. It was illegal for family members remember their fallen. Widows were fined by police placing flowers on graves. During WW2 many red civil war veterans fought against soviets. After WW2 there was change remembering fallen victims and red graves were located and grave stones placed. People were free to tell their stories from both side. As whole Finnish population suffered greatly. If imperial Germany had won ww1. Finland would have been under German rule. Not a free democratic country.
There’re TH-cam Finnish history channels with English text.
Other interesting political event took place early 1930s. When far right. Lapuan Liike, political party tried to take over the country. But failed.
Very interesting to read. Thanks for sharing this.
Great video, on a topic seldom discussed. Also, volunteers of the German "Freikorps" contributed to the White victory. Incidentally, (let me get his name and titles in the right order!...) Field-Marshall Baron Karl Gustav Emil von Mannerheim is one of my favorite World leaders of that period. He was one of two (the other being General Franco) who dealt with Hitler, without falling under the latter's "spell."
The war is very rarely brought up in any everyday occasion in Finland. Most who still bring it up often don't act out of bringing on a new view about it, because the topic has been throughoutly handled through the following century, but they have some personal axe to grind about it and just want to beat a dead horse. The reason we were able to repel the Soviets and build a world class society was exactly because the partisan attitudes were buried quickly after the war.
Thanks for sharing.
GMT's COIN (Counter Insurgency) title "All Bridges Burning" piqued my curiosity in the subject and brought me here
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The Finnish schools teach that the war was very bloody and that both sides committed horrific atrocities.
I think very few anymore identify as being part of either side's legacy or something and consider it just as a horrible event caused by political turmoil and power strugle following independence and being brough upon by the red revolution. An event that should be remembered moarned. The reason for this might be that Finns today generally agree that the leaders steered the country to the right direction by establishing a parliamentary democracy. And then of course winter war united Finns against a bigger enemy and over shadowed the civil war.
The only public debate I have seen is about what the war should be called. Civil war is probably the most common term but some also want to call it freedom war, red rebellion, national war, class war etc.
Many thanks for sharing your insights.
could you pls make a video about estonian independence war
th-cam.com/video/mUvOZdny1uU/w-d-xo.html
@@HistoryHustle oh you have already made a video about it thank you
1917 general strike was a prelude to finnish civil war also there was Mommilan kahakka in 7. marraskuuta 1917
Ok, thanks for replying.
3:26 At least they were well dressed combatants...
Thank you for this another great video, Stefan! Obrigado! ヽ(͡◕ ͜ʖ ͡◕)ﾉ 🍀 🇧🇷
Thank you Marcos.
Not dissimilar to what happened in Ireland, though the class basis was less prevelant in the Civil War
Indeed, many of us Irish see a number of parallels in our own, post independence (1922-23), Civil War with that in Finland. But there are differences. Finland had reds versus whites. We had two mainly right wing groups. One pro Treaty (accepting Dominion status inside the then British Commonwealth) and led by the famous Michael Collins and the other, fiercly republican (with some left wingers therein) and anti Treaty and wanting (as declared in the heavily put down Dublin 1916 Easter Rising) an immediate and free from British imvolvement, Republic. But unlike Finland, whose reds and whites fought together against Stalin in the Winter War, we Irish didnt have any such (tho in WW2, as a neutral we could have been invaded by either the British or by Hitler). Thus much bitterness remained in Ireland after the triumph of the pro Treaty forces. Thus resulting in the two main Irish political parties: Fine Gael (pro Treaty) and DeValera's Fianna Fail (anti Treaty).
Step five:
5. Growing mistrust - use of force as the solution...?
The November general strike was a small victory for the more radical side (but many were disappointed for not going "all in"), as the parliament agreed to pass the municipal law a second time. It was also agreed to make an inventory of all the individual and public storage with alimentary to increase the trust within the general public. That last measure didn't have time to mean anything, as the calculation of the results was not finished before the war broke out. Both guards gained more power, and although the red guards were formed under Social democratic guidance, soon these started to be completely independent of the more moderate working-class movement. These also started to go around the countryside and find the "hidden" alimentary storages, which complicated the local alimentary boards’ work (during the war this was not allowed, without explicit permission and supervision from the local alimentary boards). What both guards needed were guns, officers, and training. Although Reds got the armament from Russia (a train full of arms, which started the war), whites got their officers from the former Russian army (Finnish-born career officers), and NCOs from Germany (the jaegers) and used those as trainers. It's not what you got but how to use it.
The only thing I was told about the Civil War is that my grandmother smuggled stranded white soldiers to their side of the front. The rest I've learned from books and videos like this.
Thanks for your reply!
I don't know if I understood it correctly but I got the impression that the sport-community was divided under two national umbrellas, left and right, in the 1970's that is. Is this correct?
Great video as always! Could we see a video made about the Lapua movement?
One day for sure. Cannot tell when.