I have an old HF metal lathe I bought 20 years ago when they sold them and have hated the backlash on it. In recent years I started using it a lot and today's the day to see about adjusting it. I found this video and, while I was pretty sure I knew what "backlash" was, this video did an excellent job of representing it. Your cardboard mock-up and, especially, the cutter mock-up for a mill, we're priceless. Well done. Thank you.
i'm south korean. i didn't understand backlash in milling machine. But after i watch this video, i perfectly understand the backlash. thankyou hobbymachining
Wow, Ive been searching for the meaning of Backlash everywhere on the internet and I could not get what Backlash was until I watched this video!! Thnak you very much cause it was very difficult for me understanding what Backlash was since English is not my first language.
Hi, Laughing a bit, because just before I looked at the comments, the word brilliant had crossed my mind, regarding your video. My 95 y.o. father is down with dementia. He was a toolmaker, turned mechanical engineer, having followed his father who was a toolmaker too. Dad had bought a lot of machines over the years, that were disposed of by his workplace, primarily lathes, mills, shaper's, etc.... I went into another field, but now approaching retirement, find an interest in machining, and find your videos very informative, so thought to say thanks!
I've only just taken delivery of my new lathe, the first ever. I soon spotted what I thought was a fault but thanks to this video I'm re-assured and fully educated in the business of backlash. Thanks.
As a newbie to machining (an new hobby at the age of 58...wish I would have done this much sooner!), Thank You for explainig this! Excellent video! And thank you for not speaking down to your audiance...much appreciated.
Excellent tutorial on the subject of backlash. i've worked most of my life on machinery and this is the best explanation of this subject i have ever come across.
Very good and easy to understand education. Im working with pro machining and have seen a lot of attempts to explain backlash, this is what I will recommend people to watch.
You're videos are brilliant! I am aware of backlash and how to deal with it but you still taught me a few things with the great descriptions and diagrams, thanks :)
This video is fantastic. You did an excellent job of explaining the concepts. I've heard lots of this stuff before, but some of it only really clicked just now. Thank you very much.
This is the best video I've seen to explain climb milling concepts. Very well presented... I should say climb machining because the concept is universal.... Nice job.
Clete88 On a lathe it would be most similar to negative rake tools, but theres no direct analogy because cutting forces mostly push the work in the same direction on a lathe regardless of rake.
I remember that back in school, our old soviet lathes used to have bearings on the scales, so you can zero in when you clear the backlash. The accuracy was spot on when working with those.
Excellent explanation! I'm envious of the small amounts of backlash on your machines. Your models are excellent for anyone that didn't understand where backlash comes from. I just bought an old Index milling machine that has about .050" on the X axis but it's my third mill so I'm used to dealing with it. If a mill has adjustable dials on both ends of the X axis, just zero each one out in the "push" direction and you instantly have accurate backlash compensation. I'm not a fan of the "past and back" when reversing directions. I would just turn the handle until the .004" was taken up and then cut to .014". I feel like that is equally accurate and less subject to error. Another option is to adjust the dial to .X96" (X depends on if a full turn is .060 or .100) and then when the dial is on .000 it's accurate again. The only problem with that is to remember to make the change every time plus the possibility of stacking errors. DROs ignore backlash.
Great explanation. I cant count how many people on new lathe reviews complain about .004 backlash. Read the manual you have to have backlash. Without it stuff wears out faster. The same with a motorcycle chain or a steering gear box you have to have backlash. The bigger the lathe/part the more backlash in many cases not much but more. Its called clearance.
Thank you for the explanation of backlash, best explanation I have heard and how to overcome backlash thank you once again John Kinnane Tasmania Australia
Thank you so much for a clear and easy to understand explanation of backlash. I will soon be turning my first close tolerance parts for an idea of mine and what I learned here will be a great help to me.
Excellent explanation. I'm a joiner, and the same principles apply when setting up for woodmachining... 'beyond, then back' is the thing to remember (we work to tenths of a millimetre, though... not quite to your tolerances). Thank you!
Thats the thing you should learn first when operating lathe or mill. Wery good concept, i have personally used cnc and "hand" controlled devices years and this was by far the best explanation for backlash. OId machines have some backlash but they are usually goddam good build devices and even built in 80's are accurate as hell
Thanks a lot for such a detailed explenation. And congratulations for the excelent voice, great for speech understanding, one thing many tutorials sandly lack.
Solve backlash problems two ways. 1) DRO 3) Ball screw 3) Delrin mold-in place nut. Don't know if DRO solves backlash, but it puts that dial out of use.
And here I thought the smithy I bought was just junk.. =) I was looking for ways to remove the play but now I know it's normal up to a certain point. And I also finally understand why people don't usually cut from both directions in videos. Great information!
Excellent video. I was worried about the backlash in my mill, thinking I had bought a worn-out unit. Now I understand it is supposed to be there and how to deal with it. Thanks.
i was just thinking that i know all these backlash stuff until you mentioned the cutting direction and instability, man there is a lot to learn. i was always wondering why was climb cutting much more better in my cnc router.
Slightly crude with the cardboard, but amazingly easy to understand. I am just getting into serious metalworking and this was very easy to understand. Great job!
im wondering if you can prevent backlash from happening by lubing up the interfacing parts. if its for gearing, the parts should constantly bathe in oil. if its for threads, the part with internal threads should have a hole on it to allow some oil to be squirted.
Hey mate, I have this exact machine, atleast it seems the same, it's a peerless.. I'm trying to fix extensive backlash at the moment and I wonder if you have any manuals or information about the unit? My turn handle doesn't have nuts on it, it seems to be pressed on
can you machine a new feed screw nut but with a split and a double flange.. so some short strong springs and cap screws can be used to keep the feed screw nut tight on the feed screw..
You would probably get the same result as what he's talking about at 5:58 no matter what your direction of feed is. The force of the cutter against the work piece would be probably be enough to overcome the tension of the spring and cause piece to bounce back and forth as cutter moves across the piece causing chatter and and a rough finish. I could be wrong but I think backlash is a necessary evil and It's probably easier to just compensate for it the old-fashioned way. Hope that helps.
Well explained personally I wouldn't be getting too upset with .003"or 004" on a lathe compound slide quite manageable. In 45 years of working as a machinist I have operated lathes, mills bores etc with much more than .004"
I remember trying to adjust the backlash on my Emco 8 a few years back and I found I could get it to an acceptable level. I worry more about chatter and setting up tool posts.
As a machinist and an instructor, I know about backlash. But in your video when you're changing direction, you can feel when the teeth are engaged - we as viewers cannot. I recommend using a DRO or at least an indicator to show the backlash distance.
+metalhead2508 +ujeb08 Yeah, in most shots it was quite easy to see. But I agree with ujeb08, in many of the cases some form of visual aid (eg. 2nd camera viewing a dial indicator showing the travel) would have made the point even more clear. Helpful in a video quite heavily aimed at noobs.
thanks for this video , i was very worried and not sure if massive backlash can be delt with , it seems i can still possibly use this old south bend after all, im @ $1,044 dollars to date and still probly gotta spend that much more to get this thing accurate.
Just depends how much you have I guess. My old SB 10L has about .025" of backlash on the cross slide. I'll deal with it until I feel like spending money on a new nut. If you need it really accurate, fit up a DRO and ignore the dials.
Digital read out. Electronical wizard box that tells you where exactly you are on the carriage and cross slide. If you know what a Trav-A-Dial is, the DRO is the modern replacement for that.
Hi sire Thanks for great explanation. I feel relaxed about back lash and i can deal with it in my practice Please give us more about pbms of lathe Thank you Sincerely yours Mamod
Thanks so much for this video I never understood backlash and I have a lot on my 3in1 Harbor Freight lathe cross slide so maybe I can investigate and cure some of it thanks again
Great Vid! I enjoyed it, however, maybe you can help me with a problem I have with a 1960s era US Machine, mill I got out of a school. When I crank my table to the right its almost a two handed operation, when I go left its easy. The power feed had the gears stripped out when I got it and I can understand why. I took the table off and cleaned and inspected everything and I can not find a problem, even with the wedges loose its hard to turn one way and lubrication doesn't do much good. It wears me out cranking the thing and 20 years from now I will not be able to so I would like to fix it. Everything else about the machine is nice. Thanks for any advice!
+Partisanpackrat Check your gib. It could be shifting if the slot at the end that is supposed to retain the gib screw is broken at the end. This would allow the gib to float one way or the other depending on table direction because the screw head does not capture the gib as intended.
My Lathe looks the same august 78 build in Taiwan FERM FM-23 think 12x 32" and an 5x9 (45) Norton selector has metric dials but the bed counts to 146 mm per revolution. bought it new in 78 and still serves me .
They are actually a very good lathe with a large diameter hole in the mandrel to take large work. The dials are metric on the carriage, crossslide and topslide wheels, but the lead screw is 8 teeth per inch. I think the company is gone out of business. There are 2 problems, one is unscrewing the checks and face plate, the other is the solenoids which operate the motor forward and reverse. I fixed both, might do a video..
As soon as you had the cardboard cutout illustration with the drawing,
You nailed it what a great presentation thanks MJ!
This is honestly the best backlash video I have seen. You did an incredible job explaining and showing what backlash is. Great job!
I have an old HF metal lathe I bought 20 years ago when they sold them and have hated the backlash on it. In recent years I started using it a lot and today's the day to see about adjusting it. I found this video and, while I was pretty sure I knew what "backlash" was, this video did an excellent job of representing it. Your cardboard mock-up and, especially, the cutter mock-up for a mill, we're priceless. Well done. Thank you.
i'm south korean. i didn't understand backlash in milling machine. But after i watch this video, i perfectly understand the backlash. thankyou hobbymachining
I have struggled to understand backlash for couple of years and honestly this is the best backlash video I have watched.
Wow, Ive been searching for the meaning of Backlash everywhere on the internet and I could not get what Backlash was until I watched this video!! Thnak you very much cause it was very difficult for me understanding what Backlash was since English is not my first language.
Hi, Laughing a bit, because just before I looked at the comments, the word brilliant had crossed my mind, regarding your video. My 95 y.o. father is down with dementia. He was a toolmaker, turned mechanical engineer, having followed his father who was a toolmaker too. Dad had bought a lot of machines over the years, that were disposed of by his workplace, primarily lathes, mills, shaper's, etc.... I went into another field, but now approaching retirement, find an interest in machining, and find your videos very informative, so thought to say thanks!
Fully agree with other viewers, the best video on the net explaining backlash.
the best backlash video on TH-cam
I've only just taken delivery of my new lathe, the first ever. I soon spotted what I thought was a fault but thanks to this video I'm re-assured and fully educated in the business of backlash. Thanks.
Good video. I’ve been a tool maker for over 40 years. You nailed it!
As a newbie to machining (an new hobby at the age of 58...wish I would have done this much sooner!), Thank You for explainig this! Excellent video! And thank you for not speaking down to your audiance...much appreciated.
Excellent tutorial on the subject of backlash. i've worked most of my life on machinery and this is the best explanation of this subject i have ever come across.
this is probably the best explanation of backlash i have ever seen. very nice video
Very helpful video. The cardboard representation of the thread cross section works really well to illustrate the issue.
Very good and easy to understand education. Im working with pro machining and have seen a lot of attempts to explain backlash, this is what I will recommend people to watch.
Experienced machinist here. Very good video. Great production. Classroom worthy.
Excellent video, great use of props. A picture is often worth a thousand words. To a visual learner perhaps a million!
You're videos are brilliant! I am aware of backlash and how to deal with it but you still taught me a few things with the great descriptions and diagrams, thanks :)
This video is fantastic. You did an excellent job of explaining the concepts. I've heard lots of this stuff before, but some of it only really clicked just now. Thank you very much.
Great video, I was going through a hard time but I saw this and it's really cheered me up.
Thanks x
This is the best video I've seen to explain climb milling concepts. Very well presented... I should say climb machining because the concept is universal....
Nice job.
Clete88 On a lathe it would be most similar to negative rake tools, but theres no direct analogy because cutting forces mostly push the work in the same direction on a lathe regardless of rake.
holy crap this makes so much sense. it also makes it easy to understand how an anti-backlash nut helps .
I remember that back in school, our old soviet lathes used to have bearings on the scales, so you can zero in when you clear the backlash. The accuracy was spot on when working with those.
To my simple mind, this vid is excellent. it's simple to understand and easy to retain and refer to. Thanks.
I have referred this video to many people about backlash. Thank you from years ago!
Love the cardboard cutout demonstration. Absolutely clear. Thank you!!
That was a truly excellent explanation (and, more importantly, demonstration). Many thanks for taking the time and trouble.
Excellent explanation! I'm envious of the small amounts of backlash on your machines. Your models are excellent for anyone that didn't understand where backlash comes from. I just bought an old Index milling machine that has about .050" on the X axis but it's my third mill so I'm used to dealing with it. If a mill has adjustable dials on both ends of the X axis, just zero each one out in the "push" direction and you instantly have accurate backlash compensation. I'm not a fan of the "past and back" when reversing directions. I would just turn the handle until the .004" was taken up and then cut to .014". I feel like that is equally accurate and less subject to error. Another option is to adjust the dial to .X96" (X depends on if a full turn is .060 or .100) and then when the dial is on .000 it's accurate again. The only problem with that is to remember to make the change every time plus the possibility of stacking errors. DROs ignore backlash.
Great explanation.
I cant count how many people on new lathe reviews complain about .004 backlash.
Read the manual you have to have backlash.
Without it stuff wears out faster.
The same with a motorcycle chain or a steering gear box you have to have backlash.
The bigger the lathe/part the more backlash in many cases not much but more.
Its called clearance.
Thank you for the explanation of backlash, best explanation I have heard and how to overcome backlash thank you once again John Kinnane Tasmania Australia
Well explained; clear and concise. I will encourage new apprentices to watch this video.
Thank you so much for a clear and easy to understand explanation of backlash. I will soon be turning my first close tolerance parts for an idea of mine and what I learned here will be a great help to me.
Excellent explanation. I'm a joiner, and the same principles apply when setting up for woodmachining... 'beyond, then back' is the thing to remember (we work to tenths of a millimetre, though... not quite to your tolerances). Thank you!
Thats the thing you should learn first when operating lathe or mill. Wery good concept, i have personally used cnc and "hand" controlled devices years and this was by far the best explanation for backlash. OId machines have some backlash but they are usually goddam good build devices and even built in 80's are accurate as hell
Excellent explanation of what a lot of beginners worry about! Thanks, I will refer others to it.
Phil
UK
Excellent video, i pretty much learned this by myself when i was in school years and years ago because nobody could really explain it in a good way.
Thanks a lot for such a detailed explenation. And congratulations for the excelent voice, great for speech understanding, one thing many tutorials sandly lack.
Solve backlash problems two ways. 1) DRO 3) Ball screw 3) Delrin mold-in place nut. Don't know if DRO solves backlash, but it puts that dial out of use.
And here I thought the smithy I bought was just junk.. =) I was looking for ways to remove the play but now I know it's normal up to a certain point. And I also finally understand why people don't usually cut from both directions in videos. Great information!
Excellent video. I was worried about the backlash in my mill, thinking I had bought a worn-out unit. Now I understand it is supposed to be there and how to deal with it. Thanks.
nicely explained, clear language and excellent visual aids. Kudos.
Excellent explanation, and advice on how to apply in practice, thanks!
Excellent demonstration!!! Thank you
i was just thinking that i know all these backlash stuff until you mentioned the cutting direction and instability, man there is a lot to learn. i was always wondering why was climb cutting much more better in my cnc router.
THIS WAS SO REMARKABLY HELPFUL.
What a superb explanation, thank you!
Take care, be safe, and may the force be with you.
Simple and clear explanation. You got a new subscriber👍🏼
Slightly crude with the cardboard, but amazingly easy to understand. I am just getting into serious metalworking and this was very easy to understand. Great job!
thank you sir...very helpful video for understanding backlash
great video. I'll share this with my class.
Excellent analysis sir 🙏🙏
im wondering if you can prevent backlash from happening by lubing up the interfacing parts.
if its for gearing, the parts should constantly bathe in oil.
if its for threads, the part with internal threads should have a hole on it to allow some oil to be squirted.
The whiteboard + cardboard graphic was perfect.
very well explained
Excellent, thanks for the video , Great Explanation
Excellent video and well explained!
Hey mate, I have this exact machine, atleast it seems the same, it's a peerless.. I'm trying to fix extensive backlash at the moment and I wonder if you have any manuals or information about the unit? My turn handle doesn't have nuts on it, it seems to be pressed on
can you machine a new feed screw nut but with a split and a double flange.. so some short strong springs and cap screws can be used to keep the feed screw nut tight on the feed screw..
You would probably get the same result as what he's talking about at 5:58 no matter what your direction of feed is. The force of the cutter against the work piece would be probably be enough to overcome the tension of the spring and cause piece to bounce back and forth as cutter moves across the piece causing chatter and and a rough finish. I could be wrong but I think backlash is a necessary evil and It's probably easier to just compensate for it the old-fashioned way. Hope that helps.
thanks for the clear explanation. be safe and count to ten.
yes ditto that Geova, and simply and clearly explained, thanks
Very good presentation.
A highly informative explanation of backlash I have ever seen. Thank you for this video
now, if i switch the type of screw to a ball screw, would backlash be removed?
Many thanks sir
Very good explanation
Well explained personally I wouldn't be getting too upset with .003"or 004" on a lathe compound slide quite manageable. In 45 years of working as a machinist I have operated lathes, mills bores etc with much more than .004"
Thank you very much for this.. It was very helpful on how I use my lathe.. I dealt with it fine. But this is going to help alot more..
Very good explanation
I remember trying to adjust the backlash on my Emco 8 a few years back and I found I could get it to an acceptable level. I worry more about chatter and setting up tool posts.
As a machinist and an instructor, I know about backlash. But in your video when you're changing direction, you can feel when the teeth are engaged - we as viewers cannot. I recommend using a DRO or at least an indicator to show the backlash distance.
+metalhead2508 +ujeb08 Yeah, in most shots it was quite easy to see. But I agree with ujeb08, in many of the cases some form of visual aid (eg. 2nd camera viewing a dial indicator showing the travel) would have made the point even more clear. Helpful in a video quite heavily aimed at noobs.
perfect explanation! thanks very much!
really nice mockups thanks!
Excellent explanation, I loved the video.
great explanation
excellent explanation thank you for posting
thanks for this video , i was very worried and not sure if massive backlash can be delt with , it seems i can still possibly use this old south bend after all, im @ $1,044 dollars to date and still probly gotta spend that much more to get this thing accurate.
Just depends how much you have I guess. My old SB 10L has about .025" of backlash on the cross slide. I'll deal with it until I feel like spending money on a new nut. If you need it really accurate, fit up a DRO and ignore the dials.
gadget73 whats a DRO ?
Digital read out. Electronical wizard box that tells you where exactly you are on the carriage and cross slide. If you know what a Trav-A-Dial is, the DRO is the modern replacement for that.
gadget73 cool thanks bro
Thank you for this clarify of backlash, now I understand better! Interesting video
Thank you for your comment. Glad it helped.
Hi sire
Thanks for great explanation. I feel relaxed about back lash and i can deal with it in my practice
Please give us more about pbms of lathe
Thank you
Sincerely yours Mamod
Thanks so much for this video I never understood backlash and I have a lot on my 3in1 Harbor Freight lathe cross slide so maybe I can investigate and cure some of it thanks again
Amazing video.
thanks just got my first lathe
great instructional video
Great Vid! I enjoyed it, however, maybe you can help me with a problem I have with a 1960s era US Machine, mill I got out of a school. When I crank my table to the right its almost a two handed operation, when I go left its easy. The power feed had the gears stripped out when I got it and I can understand why. I took the table off and cleaned and inspected everything and I can not find a problem, even with the wedges loose its hard to turn one way and lubrication doesn't do much good. It wears me out cranking the thing and 20 years from now I will not be able to so I would like to fix it. Everything else about the machine is nice. Thanks for any advice!
+Partisanpackrat Check your gib. It could be shifting if the slot at the end that is supposed to retain the gib screw is broken at the end. This would allow the gib to float one way or the other depending on table direction because the screw head does not capture the gib as intended.
+utubetommy Thanks, I will check it out!
+Partisanpackrat You're welcome. Let me know how it turns out.
Thank you for sharing.
My stove's knobs at home have insane backlash I can't tell the temperature!
Excellent tutorial ..TY
well this helps me with my physics lab report thanks mate
Old school all the way!!
What brand lathe is that your using
Great video!!
very good info :) thanks for sharing
Thanks, this was helpfull.
Greetings from Germany
Thank you for sharing
Great visual
Thank you. A helpful video.
Is that a Shenwai 900 lathe? 12 X 36 ". I have onw, great machine.
My Lathe looks the same august 78 build in Taiwan FERM FM-23 think 12x 32" and an 5x9 (45) Norton selector has metric dials but the bed counts to 146 mm per revolution. bought it new in 78 and still serves me .
They are actually a very good lathe with a large diameter hole in the mandrel to take large work. The dials are metric on the carriage, crossslide and topslide wheels, but the lead screw is 8 teeth per inch. I think the company is gone out of business. There are 2 problems, one is unscrewing the checks and face plate, the other is the solenoids which operate the motor forward and reverse. I fixed both, might do a video..
thanks for a great video!
thank you for this it helped me
Thank you great video and well explained