Good point as noted here that Anne Boleyn had offered Mary a better deal than the deal Mary eventually got after the events of May 1536. Many assumed then and even now that Mary's situation would've improved with the removal of Anne but it actually got worse until Mary was persuaded to submit in June 1536. Had Mary not submitted, God knows what would've have happened to her. Proof that it wasn't all Anne Boleyn to blame for Mary's mistreatment.
I think it took Mary realising that the cause of her troubles was her father - on top of Chapuys being scared for her life, and maybe Catherine's death - to sign the decree. That letter to Cromwell shows just how much she'd misjudged the source of her strife. And it's utterly tragic.
Although sympathetic to Mary, Jane was probably more concerned with any children she would have, as she had an idea of what might happen to herself if she failed to conceive.
I feel very sorry for Mary, it must have been aweful to be thrown aside and not see her Mother and banished from court. Many of Mary's decisions came from that. She failed to realize that Henry was responsible for a lot of her suffering, which does include Annes antics. Anne failed to realize who Henry really was, a narcissist and sociopath. This shows just how toxic Henry was. You never abandon your children. Jane, like so many of the other wives was trying to survive Henry.😮
Thank you, Claire. This is another instance where I'd love to be a fly on the wall, to get a glimpse of the real Jane and what she endured from Henry. We know that on at least one occasion he publicly reminded Jane of Anne's fate for meddling in state matters. His more subtle warnings in regards to Jane's attempts at reconciliation with Mary, are also evidence of him firmly suggesting she should concentrate on the job she was meant to do. I don't blame her at all for shutting up about it, and anything else that displeased Henry. Her position was too precarious, until the baby son was produced.
Mary was such a sad girl from the treatment she was given by Henry. She's always remembered as bloody Mary, from her burning protestants, but I feel if treated differently, this wouldn't have happened. She really believed she was helping them, ugh! Claire I love your stories on the Tudors, my favourite time in history. I always read them, but dont always comment. Thank you for them x
Claire, thank you for this excellent episode. As you said, Jane was wise to keep her own council on matters concerning the King's children. As for Chapuys, both Mary and her mother were undoubtedly well served by him. Claire, I always enjoy your broadcasts as they not only forward my knowledge of the 16th century, but serve as a reminder to double check every 'fact' that has found its way into the complex and very often misinterpreted history of the Tudor court.
I know Jane would've enjoyed a golden moment after Edward's birth, had she lived. But I have always wondered, would she have been pressed by her family to cross dangerous lines with Henry? Would he have been impatiently expecting a Duke of York and getting snippy over any false positives or miscarriages while dallying with her maids as a way of driving her to a stress breakdown? Would he have simply put her out to pasture and appointed a maitresse-en-titre? After Anne, I doubt another woman would reject that title in hopes of him divorcing again. All I can think is that Henry being what he was, the only reason he regarded her as his paragon of wifely virtue was that she didn't live long enough for him to start picking her apart.
I find Mary's attitude towards little Elizabeth really touching; the softer side of Mary that was later buried under her Catholic zeal. Incidentally, were royal marriages required to give notice, similar to the banns we have today, or could they be arranged at the last minute? Not thinking of the pomp and pageantry, just the legal ceremony itself.
If a person received permission from the head of the church to marry quickly then the banns were not necessary. So yes, a royal could be married at a moments notice as long as the king or queen agreed.
Thanks for clarifying that although Jane wasn't a key player in Mary's reconciliation with Henry, she did try in a way to help and wasn't completely heartless/ignorant/useless. It's easy to verbally bash Jane for not being a key player but she did try to make some effort of intervention regarding Mary and even with the monasteries as we know but was quickly silenced on such matters by Henry. It was dangerous times, the horrifying events of May 1536 still fresh. Jane was the new wife who could've shared her predecessors fate had she pressed matters too much.
Wonderful, Claire. That was so interesting. I do admit as a somewhat voluble person, I would have been quiet as a mouse around Henry so I do not blame Jane. He was not charitable to defiance from anyone.
It is so tragic, in my eyes, how Mary was treated by Henry VIII. She loved her mother so much and wanted to be able to visit her, speak with her, and be with her in her final days, and i have no doubt that the little girl in her just wanted her daddy to love her and ahow the world as such. Instead, he acted as if the contents of a septic tank were preferable to his firstborn child, his DAUGHTER. I do understand, to a much lesser extent, how Mary must have felt. My father ran very hot and cold at whim too, at times, and was actually physically abusive sometimes. The latter stopped after he divorced my mom amd she took me to Las Vegas, Nevada for a year to be cared for by my maternal grandparents while the divorce was going on. My dad apparently felt horribly guilty for abusing me, he apologized over how he treated me in my youth when i was in my mid - latter 20's, we reconciled, and have since had a wonderful parent / child relationship these last 20 years. I wish poor Mary had been treated better..... I AM glad she had an ally in Jane Seymour, albeit one forced to remain silent about it at the cost of her marriage, and probably her life as well. Mary probably had an inkling that her new, considerably kinder, more gentle, loving, compassionate, and peace oriented stepmother Jane was a friend rather than a foe. Mary was smart - she knew Anne had it our for her and Catherine of Aragon and could spot the difference in temperment and disposition between Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour a hundred miles away. Nobody deserves to go through what Mary and her mother did, being forced apart, not allowed to communicate or even spendtime together in person because Mary's father was being a colossal jerk. At least Mary and her mother have since been reunited in heaven and have had a LONG time to catch up and bond with each other as they were denied the right to do in life.
Claire, I've always wondered - do you think Jane Seymour was only pregnant once? I know that Henry was in ill health at the time, and he likely had some kind of infertility gene (which is strange, given that his own parents were able to produce so many children) but Jane was young and healthy. It likely took her from May 1536 until until January 1537 to get pregnant, so I'm just wondering if it's possible she had a miscarriage beforehand? We likely would know about it, given that we know about Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn's "failures" when it came to live births, but so many things have been lost to history, as you well know, and I've always wanted a historian's perspective.
I think Henry, who was in his mid 40s and obese, was beginning to have impotence problems. I doubt he could have sex by the time he married his 4th wife, whom he "liked not".
@@lisaa.4667 which is unfortunate, due to the notion of how much he wanted to give it to Kathryn Howard. Although, for her sake, I wouldn't want him anywhere near me...
I don't think we could make any assumption about family dynamics and maybe a diamond ring is not too bad to receive from Jane. Jane did not break her parents marriage up after all.
Henry alone broke her parent's marriage up. I believe Anne would have been happier if she had married her first love, Henry Percy, the heir to the earldom of Northumberland, but only Henry would have had the power to break the couple up and banish Henry Percy from court. Jane was old enough to be an "old maid" in those days, and probably felt fortunate to not only marry, but to marry the king, even though he was much older, selfish, temperamental, dangerous, and was getting homelier and fatter each year.
I believe you are right. Look at the power her brothers later gained by marrying into the royal family. They reached the height of power when their nephew became king. Jane wasn't the smartest of the wives, nor the prettiest. She was therefore more controllable, from H's perspective.
Many people that discuss the six wives, in particular Jane, need to realise that after Anne Boleyn, Henry was never going to allow a wife to have that much power ever again. The royal family dynamic was not like other families. The royal children were not raised by the queens and they had their own households. Jane really had no business in meddling with two illigitamite daughters as that was not her role. Just because we dont see Jane strive to mother Elizabeth and Mary, it doesnt mean she did not care. She may have tried to reconcile Mary with her father and also bring her back to the line of succession but that was only time she tried because it was shut down and when she got involved with politics that was shut down with the threat of having Anne's fate. Henry ensured that Jane only set her mind to the respinsibilities of providing an heir. Once that was secure then maybe Jane would have been able to reconcile both daughters.
um like, that's how power brokering works. "honor me as king and i'll grant you this piece of land/title" etc. i thought the wars of the roses is ample demonstration of this quid pro quo. why are you so shocked.
@@themisheika I’m thinking more in terms of how offended Mary probably was by this deal. She already hated the woman. Anne might have had a better chance of getting through to her if she half understood how the girl was feeling. In all of this, Anne never showed her sympathy for the damage that she had encouraged
@@michellecrocker2485 except anne does understand how mary is feeling, she simply also understand the power structure they're both living under. and it's not anne's job to show her sympathy when she spits in anne's face and calls her the king's mistress. to show sympathy at such disrespect is to show political weakness. it's not as if mary wasn't brought up to be politically astute either, her being offended by a political deal is just her being willfully blind and, like many people then and now, deciding to focus on the scapegoat (anne) despite anne actually reaching out to her first and offering her a way out, rather than the actual villain (henry) who was the one imprisoning and executing mary's supporters even after anne's death.
@@themisheika we all know that the real villain was Henry. However, did Anne ever go to Henry and say “ hey, maybe we should …I don’t know…start being nice to Mary?” I mean, we all know the real villain but I don’t think Mary wanted to believe that. Anne’s acceptance of Henry was the catalyst for her parent’s split and she was understandably upset about it and Henry’s further abuse towards her added insult to injury. This would have made Mary naturally angry and looking for a place to put it. Who will children more likely blame for everything? Their stepmother. I think she was in denial about the fact that all of this was Henry’s fault. I think also, the deal may have sounded insincere too. Like what Mary was hearing was “ I don’t wanna help you. I just have an ego and I need your friends to like me” it may not have been what Anne was saying but it’s probably what Mary heard in her dislike
@@michellecrocker2485 Again, it is not Anne's job to be nice to the girl who has been nothing but nasty to her in public and private. There's no such thing as "being the bigger person" in high politics. Even Henry's gesture of good faith towards the rebels of the pilgrimage of grace was a ploy to have them disband so the leaders can be more easily dealt with (by hanging btw). You have a very naive view of politics if you keep harping on this view that Anne should have softened Henry towards Mary when it was absolutely Mary's intransigence and narrow-mindedness of blaming everything on The Woman instead of the actual villain of the piece, especially in a time when people have been executed for less than being uncivil to the queen's face. There is no room for personal feelings in the cutthroat world of Tudor politics. Mary, and you too, are naive to think there are, or that Anne did not make "enough" effort to be nice to Mary when that was actually Anne being nice to Mary but Mary believing erroneously that she should outrank Anne still and not understanding or caring about the political status quo. To be brutally frank, anyone else in Mary's position would have been eager to curry Anne's favour instead of rejecting her gesture of goodwill straight out of hand, if only to save their own neck (literally!), as subsequent events after Anne's death has proven. In fact, considering Henry's treatment of Mary WORSEN after Anne's death and Jane Seymour's ascension, should have implied that Anne, were she indeed the devil whispering into Henry's ear that you and Mary both imagined her to be, would have been persuading Henry to bully Mary even worse than what Mary endured during Anne's reign as Queen. Yet Mary's position was better during Anne's queenship than the early days of Jane's queenship prior to her signing that humiliating letter of submission to her father, which should have signaled to you that Anne isn't the problem here... Henry's villainy and Mary's political blindness are.
Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr were both better stepmothers to both Mary and Elizabeth than Jane was. Because she was so young and frivolous, Catherine Howard was pretty useless as a stepmother.
I don't blame the teen-aged Catherine for having sex with a young stud in court. Her husband probably was not capable of having sex with her at that point, plus he was very obese and his rotten leg smelled like a dead skunk.
Terrible what Mary had to go through. I wonder if she had accepted either of Anne's offers of reconciliation, if they still would have written that letter for her to sign. 🤔
Common misconception but this false fact comes from way before the Tudors. I remember reading about Jane in school and that was years before the Tudor series. She was given credit for many things that has since been disproven but this was probably an attempt to make Jane into something she never was. This probably happened in the time after she died by Henry.
Jane is depicted as a demure saint in every depiction that has ever been made. I doubt the real Jane was so one dimensional - after all, she did willingly encourage Henry to cast Anne off. Of course she wouldn't have known it would result in Anne's death, but she would have known the goal was to have Anne removed one way or another to no longer be queen either through banishment or joining a nunnery.
I think Jane did encourage Henry to have his daughter back at court maybe Jane had more sense than a lot of gave her credit for she knew when to keep quiet. As for Henry tiering of Jane had she lived long enough? And not stray from her I think it’s very likely would because that was a sort of person Henry and that was no reflection on Jane herself. And at the end of the day chapuys the wrote where he’s opinion and his interpretation of matters that he saw It doesn’t mean it was gospel as I think it’s been taken here.
I really liked this video!! Thank you!! Maybe history had a dim view of Eustice because of his “role” in Anne Boleyn’s demise? Looking for a scapegoat? Assuming a “good women” would always be a positive influence on her husband? 🤨
@@MargaretPlantagenetPole I’ll buy that she didn’t repeat the harm Anne did but I’ve studied early childhood education and I can say that being ignored can be just as damaging to the child
The style of parenting among royal families was then, and remained for a long time, quite different from ours today. Royal children had separate establishments and only saw their parents at intervals. They were basically brought up by others. It may not have been what we would regard as appropriate, but Elizabeth's treatment as the daughter of a king, even a delegitimized daughter, was quite normal for her position. Jane was doing nothing wrong.
@@edithengel2284 well, I would beg to differ on this. Elizabeth was a child whose household was in dire circumstances. She outgrew all her clothes, they struggled for food because Henry didn’t want to take care of her needs. Jane could have been more sympathetic to that plight. If she was being careful about her position until it was more secure, then I might understand more. However, we don’t know why Jane gave Mary attention and not so was a Christmas card to Elizabeth. Until we know what Jane’s own reasons were, we can’t say she didn’t help her because she wasn’t in her right place to. It looks like she ignored the child out of spite because of her mother. Had Jane lived, Elizabeth would’ve sunk into a situation that not even her sister could help her out of
@@MargaretPlantagenetPole yet she never did her any good either. When Elizabeth’s household was being ignored by Henry, it was being brushed aside by Jane too. I feel Jane was like “ meh “ about it
Anne often gets pegged as a husband stealing harlot, but she really was a feminist that fought for woman's rights. She championed educating girls, and I can see her recognizing that Henry's treatment of Mary as harsh.
Despite Henry’s treatment of Mary, I can’t hold it as one of his many negatives given the way Mary eventually turned out. As cruel as it may sound, I would rather have had her turned a soft apple, as was quoted, and therefore sparing hundreds of innocent people, the stake. (Hindsight is a privilege I concede). And I’m saying this is an atheist.
@@Ohforgodssakethatsme If todays psychologist and therapists looked at Mary's case they'd be horrified at what she went through. Initially treated as Henry's pearl, then she was clearly of an age where she would be aware of the growing hostilities between her parents, even if she was by this time in her own residence. Then denied the chance to see her mother for the final years of her life, made to serve her infant half-sister who had now become the heir to the throne. Likely threatened with potential death but also the forefront of any campaign by rival factions dissatisfied with Henry and Anne's union. Add to that continual ill health throughout her life. It's not an excuse for her later behaviour though arguably we are holding her to todays standards, whereas back in Tudor times there was a genuine true believe in religion and the consequences of not adhering to the bible's teaching. Henry failed his daughters by not been the father they needed. Mary should have had a decent marriage union arranged by her early 20's and then ideally have had her own little family. It might not have swayed her from the desire for the throne but would have ensured her interests were elsewhere diverted.
You're delusional if you blame jane for Anne's execution and taking her place. If jane was a homewrecker who stole Henry, then so was anne. There's actual evidence that Jane's family wanted her to be Henry's mistress. Who knows if that's what she even wanted. It's not Jane's fault Henry fell for her and didn't want Anne anymore
Jane neglected her, as did Henry. There are records of Elizabeth's guardians begging for money to get some new clothes for the little girl, who had outgrown her old clothes. Neglect is another form of abuse. So Jane really wasn't any better than Anne.
@@ladyv5655 Jane did worse because Elizabeth was an infant not yet three years old almost a baby she was no danger to Jane because in Anne s case Mary was a teen girl and she saw her more of a threat to her and as a result Anne mistreated her But Jane was one of the most conniving hypocrites that I had ever seen Why do you think thather restless spirit roam Hampton Court dressed in a long white shirt with a candle in her hand because she had a lot to do with Anne s downfall i know her brothers were behind her andsupported her but she did it willingly because her own ambition knew no bounds she went as far as walking. Over the bloody headless body of another woman to get what she wanted and got it Anne wanted to win Mary in her own way a big girl while Jane did nothing for a little girl not 3 ignored and neglected her It may sound harsh but I'm glad that Jane scarcely enjoyed her marriage her crown and the birth of the prince it all lasted less than a year and a half only 17 months Jane died 12 days after her son s birth and Anne and her met in the afterlife ha ha karma she has lot to do in Anne s ruin and death more than people think because many of these intrigues were involved in a must of secrecy and mystery Jane came froman unscrupulous unprincipled and evil family look what her dad did seducing his teenage daughter in law her brother Edward s first wife this brother later sent his own brother to death this same brother Thomas attempted to seduce Elizabeth almost brg ti ruin Seymours were low lifes thats why Elizabeth hated them with a passion and did not want them around maybe she knew things that people of today don't know
@@MargaretPlantagenetPole you do know that neglect is just as bad as a beating. As for Jane she may not have been directly the one to proclaim sentence on Anne but she was the one that carried on with a married man. She played her part in Anne downfall. Anne wasn’t even cold in her grave before Jane was in her place. She walked over Anne body to get what she wanted. Say what you want about Anne but the one thing you can’t say about her is that she walked over Katherine of Aragorn dead body to get to Henry.
Good point as noted here that Anne Boleyn had offered Mary a better deal than the deal Mary eventually got after the events of May 1536. Many assumed then and even now that Mary's situation would've improved with the removal of Anne but it actually got worse until Mary was persuaded to submit in June 1536. Had Mary not submitted, God knows what would've have happened to her. Proof that it wasn't all Anne Boleyn to blame for Mary's mistreatment.
I think it took Mary realising that the cause of her troubles was her father - on top of Chapuys being scared for her life, and maybe Catherine's death - to sign the decree. That letter to Cromwell shows just how much she'd misjudged the source of her strife. And it's utterly tragic.
Although sympathetic to Mary, Jane was probably more concerned with any children she would have, as she had an idea of what might happen to herself if she failed to conceive.
I feel very sorry for Mary, it must have been aweful to be thrown aside and not see her Mother and banished from court. Many of Mary's decisions came from that. She failed to realize that Henry was responsible for a lot of her suffering, which does include Annes antics. Anne failed to realize who Henry really was, a narcissist and sociopath. This shows just how toxic Henry was. You never abandon your children. Jane, like so many of the other wives was trying to survive Henry.😮
Thank you, Claire. This is another instance where I'd love to be a fly on the wall, to get a glimpse of the real Jane and what she endured from Henry. We know that on at least one occasion he publicly reminded Jane of Anne's fate for meddling in state matters. His more subtle warnings in regards to Jane's attempts at reconciliation with Mary, are also evidence of him firmly suggesting she should concentrate on the job she was meant to do. I don't blame her at all for shutting up about it, and anything else that displeased Henry. Her position was too precarious, until the baby son was produced.
Mary was such a sad girl from the treatment she was given by Henry. She's always remembered as bloody Mary, from her burning protestants, but I feel if treated differently, this wouldn't have happened. She really believed she was helping them, ugh!
Claire I love your stories on the Tudors, my favourite time in history. I always read them, but dont always comment. Thank you for them x
Tutoring Tudor Tales is a special gift of yours Claire. Love the lessons.
This may be controversial to say but I think that Eustace Chapuys was more of a father to Mary than Henry ever was.
I think it’s very astute.😊
That isn't even controversial. Henry was not a good father to his daughters.
Henry was never around while Chapuys was. It’s not controversial if it is true. The fact that Mary put her trust in him is really telling
Just plain truth statement ❤
Claire, thank you for this excellent episode. As you said, Jane was wise to keep her own council on matters concerning the King's children. As for Chapuys, both Mary and her mother were undoubtedly well served by him. Claire, I always enjoy your broadcasts as they not only forward my knowledge of the 16th century, but serve as a reminder to double check every 'fact' that has found its way into the complex and very often misinterpreted history of the Tudor court.
Thank you Claire. Amazing as always. So happy to see you posting more often. Please always prioritize yourself too
I know Jane would've enjoyed a golden moment after Edward's birth, had she lived. But I have always wondered, would she have been pressed by her family to cross dangerous lines with Henry? Would he have been impatiently expecting a Duke of York and getting snippy over any false positives or miscarriages while dallying with her maids as a way of driving her to a stress breakdown? Would he have simply put her out to pasture and appointed a maitresse-en-titre? After Anne, I doubt another woman would reject that title in hopes of him divorcing again. All I can think is that Henry being what he was, the only reason he regarded her as his paragon of wifely virtue was that she didn't live long enough for him to start picking her apart.
I find Mary's attitude towards little Elizabeth really touching; the softer side of Mary that was later buried under her Catholic zeal. Incidentally, were royal marriages required to give notice, similar to the banns we have today, or could they be arranged at the last minute? Not thinking of the pomp and pageantry, just the legal ceremony itself.
If a person received permission from the head of the church to marry quickly then the banns were not necessary. So yes, a royal could be married at a moments notice as long as the king or queen agreed.
Thanks for clarifying that although Jane wasn't a key player in Mary's reconciliation with Henry, she did try in a way to help and wasn't completely heartless/ignorant/useless.
It's easy to verbally bash Jane for not being a key player but she did try to make some effort of intervention regarding Mary and even with the monasteries as we know but was quickly silenced on such matters by Henry.
It was dangerous times, the horrifying events of May 1536 still fresh. Jane was the new wife who could've shared her predecessors fate had she pressed matters too much.
Eh Henry only ever listened to Henry. His wives were for giving him heirs, not giving advice.
Wonderful, Claire. That was so interesting. I do admit as a somewhat voluble person, I would have been quiet as a mouse around Henry so I do not blame Jane. He was not charitable to defiance from anyone.
It is so tragic, in my eyes, how Mary was treated by Henry VIII. She loved her mother so much and wanted to be able to visit her, speak with her, and be with her in her final days, and i have no doubt that the little girl in her just wanted her daddy to love her and ahow the world as such. Instead, he acted as if the contents of a septic tank were preferable to his firstborn child, his DAUGHTER. I do understand, to a much lesser extent, how Mary must have felt. My father ran very hot and cold at whim too, at times, and was actually physically abusive sometimes. The latter stopped after he divorced my mom amd she took me to Las Vegas, Nevada for a year to be cared for by my maternal grandparents while the divorce was going on. My dad apparently felt horribly guilty for abusing me, he apologized over how he treated me in my youth when i was in my mid - latter 20's, we reconciled, and have since had a wonderful parent / child relationship these last 20 years. I wish poor Mary had been treated better..... I AM glad she had an ally in Jane Seymour, albeit one forced to remain silent about it at the cost of her marriage, and probably her life as well. Mary probably had an inkling that her new, considerably kinder, more gentle, loving, compassionate, and peace oriented stepmother Jane was a friend rather than a foe. Mary was smart - she knew Anne had it our for her and Catherine of Aragon and could spot the difference in temperment and disposition between Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour a hundred miles away. Nobody deserves to go through what Mary and her mother did, being forced apart, not allowed to communicate or even spendtime together in person because Mary's father was being a colossal jerk. At least Mary and her mother have since been reunited in heaven and have had a LONG time to catch up and bond with each other as they were denied the right to do in life.
Claire, I've always wondered - do you think Jane Seymour was only pregnant once? I know that Henry was in ill health at the time, and he likely had some kind of infertility gene (which is strange, given that his own parents were able to produce so many children) but Jane was young and healthy. It likely took her from May 1536 until until January 1537 to get pregnant, so I'm just wondering if it's possible she had a miscarriage beforehand? We likely would know about it, given that we know about Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn's "failures" when it came to live births, but so many things have been lost to history, as you well know, and I've always wanted a historian's perspective.
I think Henry, who was in his mid 40s and obese, was beginning to have impotence problems. I doubt he could have sex by the time he married his 4th wife, whom he "liked not".
@@lisaa.4667 which is unfortunate, due to the notion of how much he wanted to give it to Kathryn Howard. Although, for her sake, I wouldn't want him anywhere near me...
@@lisaa.4667 those impotence problems would have been made worse not only by the weight but also by the type 2 diabetes
Thank you! You put that out there in a sync and complete manner .
Glad to hear about the annulment instead of the usual and inaccurate divorce from Catherine of Aragon.
I don't think we could make any assumption about family dynamics and maybe a diamond ring is not too bad to receive from Jane. Jane did not break her parents marriage up after all.
Henry alone broke her parent's marriage up. I believe Anne would have been happier if she had married her first love, Henry Percy, the heir to the earldom of Northumberland, but only Henry would have had the power to break the couple up and banish Henry Percy from court. Jane was old enough to be an "old maid" in those days, and probably felt fortunate to not only marry, but to marry the king, even though he was much older, selfish, temperamental, dangerous, and was getting homelier and fatter each year.
Thank you I love reading about the tudors and your videos make this info come to life❤
I could be wrong, or biased, but I always had the impression that Jane was a tool of her brothers and a bit thick!
I believe you are right. Look at the power her brothers later gained by marrying into the royal family. They reached the height of power when their nephew became king. Jane wasn't the smartest of the wives, nor the prettiest. She was therefore more controllable, from H's perspective.
Hair is looking great Claire
Many people that discuss the six wives, in particular Jane, need to realise that after Anne Boleyn, Henry was never going to allow a wife to have that much power ever again.
The royal family dynamic was not like other families. The royal children were not raised by the queens and they had their own households. Jane really had no business in meddling with two illigitamite daughters as that was not her role.
Just because we dont see Jane strive to mother Elizabeth and Mary, it doesnt mean she did not care. She may have tried to reconcile Mary with her father and also bring her back to the line of succession but that was only time she tried because it was shut down and when she got involved with politics that was shut down with the threat of having Anne's fate.
Henry ensured that Jane only set her mind to the respinsibilities of providing an heir. Once that was secure then maybe Jane would have been able to reconcile both daughters.
“ honor me as queen and I’ll make sure you’re princess again “ too much quid pro quo. No wonder Mary rejected that
um like, that's how power brokering works. "honor me as king and i'll grant you this piece of land/title" etc. i thought the wars of the roses is ample demonstration of this quid pro quo. why are you so shocked.
@@themisheika I’m thinking more in terms of how offended Mary probably was by this deal. She already hated the woman. Anne might have had a better chance of getting through to her if she half understood how the girl was feeling. In all of this, Anne never showed her sympathy for the damage that she had encouraged
@@michellecrocker2485 except anne does understand how mary is feeling, she simply also understand the power structure they're both living under. and it's not anne's job to show her sympathy when she spits in anne's face and calls her the king's mistress. to show sympathy at such disrespect is to show political weakness. it's not as if mary wasn't brought up to be politically astute either, her being offended by a political deal is just her being willfully blind and, like many people then and now, deciding to focus on the scapegoat (anne) despite anne actually reaching out to her first and offering her a way out, rather than the actual villain (henry) who was the one imprisoning and executing mary's supporters even after anne's death.
@@themisheika we all know that the real villain was Henry. However, did Anne ever go to Henry and say “ hey, maybe we should …I don’t know…start being nice to Mary?” I mean, we all know the real villain but I don’t think Mary wanted to believe that. Anne’s acceptance of Henry was the catalyst for her parent’s split and she was understandably upset about it and Henry’s further abuse towards her added insult to injury. This would have made Mary naturally angry and looking for a place to put it. Who will children more likely blame for everything? Their stepmother. I think she was in denial about the fact that all of this was Henry’s fault. I think also, the deal may have sounded insincere too. Like what Mary was hearing was “ I don’t wanna help you. I just have an ego and I need your friends to like me” it may not have been what Anne was saying but it’s probably what Mary heard in her dislike
@@michellecrocker2485 Again, it is not Anne's job to be nice to the girl who has been nothing but nasty to her in public and private. There's no such thing as "being the bigger person" in high politics. Even Henry's gesture of good faith towards the rebels of the pilgrimage of grace was a ploy to have them disband so the leaders can be more easily dealt with (by hanging btw). You have a very naive view of politics if you keep harping on this view that Anne should have softened Henry towards Mary when it was absolutely Mary's intransigence and narrow-mindedness of blaming everything on The Woman instead of the actual villain of the piece, especially in a time when people have been executed for less than being uncivil to the queen's face. There is no room for personal feelings in the cutthroat world of Tudor politics. Mary, and you too, are naive to think there are, or that Anne did not make "enough" effort to be nice to Mary when that was actually Anne being nice to Mary but Mary believing erroneously that she should outrank Anne still and not understanding or caring about the political status quo. To be brutally frank, anyone else in Mary's position would have been eager to curry Anne's favour instead of rejecting her gesture of goodwill straight out of hand, if only to save their own neck (literally!), as subsequent events after Anne's death has proven. In fact, considering Henry's treatment of Mary WORSEN after Anne's death and Jane Seymour's ascension, should have implied that Anne, were she indeed the devil whispering into Henry's ear that you and Mary both imagined her to be, would have been persuading Henry to bully Mary even worse than what Mary endured during Anne's reign as Queen. Yet Mary's position was better during Anne's queenship than the early days of Jane's queenship prior to her signing that humiliating letter of submission to her father, which should have signaled to you that Anne isn't the problem here... Henry's villainy and Mary's political blindness are.
Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr were both better stepmothers to both Mary and Elizabeth than Jane was. Because she was so young and frivolous, Catherine Howard was pretty useless as a stepmother.
I don't blame the teen-aged Catherine for having sex with a young stud in court. Her husband probably was not capable of having sex with her at that point, plus he was very obese and his rotten leg smelled like a dead skunk.
This was very interesting...thank you
She at least supported the reconciliation. I wish she had given Elizabeth the same attention
She would never have given Elizabeth the time of day.
@@cherrytraveller5915 exactly my point
Gosh the more I hear about King Henry, the more I believe what an odious man he was. Horrible.
Terrible what Mary had to go through. I wonder if she had accepted either of Anne's offers of reconciliation, if they still would have written that letter for her to sign. 🤔
Great video Claire. Just one thing, I think we overly rely on Chapuys as a source.
Great video
I was misled to believe this. Thanks for clarifying it!
Very good info!
I think so many people think jane did it because of the tudors! That show made it seem like jane was pure perfection!
I think Jane was a good person
To the author here, who is your favourite Tudor
I wonder how Henry would have treated Prince Harry
Common misconception but this false fact comes from way before the Tudors. I remember reading about Jane in school and that was years before the Tudor series. She was given credit for many things that has since been disproven but this was probably an attempt to make Jane into something she never was. This probably happened in the time after she died by Henry.
Jane is depicted as a demure saint in every depiction that has ever been made. I doubt the real Jane was so one dimensional - after all, she did willingly encourage Henry to cast Anne off. Of course she wouldn't have known it would result in Anne's death, but she would have known the goal was to have Anne removed one way or another to no longer be queen either through banishment or joining a nunnery.
Thank you, Claire 🙏
I doubt anyone argued with Henry after he executed so many people.
I think Jane did encourage Henry to have his daughter back at court maybe Jane had more sense than a lot of gave her credit for she knew when to keep quiet. As for Henry tiering of Jane had she lived long enough? And not stray from her I think it’s very likely would because that was a sort of person Henry and that was no reflection on Jane herself. And at the end of the day chapuys the wrote where he’s opinion and his interpretation of matters that he saw It doesn’t mean it was gospel as I think it’s been taken here.
Is there any book about Eustace Chapuys that you could suggest? He is a facinating person throughout all of this .
Maybe Henry would have been happier if he wasn’t so constapated😢
I really liked this video!! Thank you!! Maybe history had a dim view of Eustice because of his “role” in Anne Boleyn’s demise? Looking for a scapegoat? Assuming a “good women” would always be a positive influence on her husband?
🤨
This is what I don’t like about Jane, she was negligent of a toddler
And Anne directly mistreated and harmed Mary. Jane was not half as cruel as Anne. She never did any harm to Elizabeth
@@MargaretPlantagenetPole I’ll buy that she didn’t repeat the harm Anne did but I’ve studied early childhood education and I can say that being ignored can be just as damaging to the child
The style of parenting among royal families was then, and remained for a long time, quite different from ours today. Royal children had separate establishments and only saw their parents at intervals. They were basically brought up by others. It may not have been what we would regard as appropriate, but Elizabeth's treatment as the daughter of a king, even a delegitimized daughter, was quite normal for her position. Jane was doing nothing wrong.
@@edithengel2284 well, I would beg to differ on this. Elizabeth was a child whose household was in dire circumstances. She outgrew all her clothes, they struggled for food because Henry didn’t want to take care of her needs. Jane could have been more sympathetic to that plight. If she was being careful about her position until it was more secure, then I might understand more. However, we don’t know why Jane gave Mary attention and not so was a Christmas card to Elizabeth. Until we know what Jane’s own reasons were, we can’t say she didn’t help her because she wasn’t in her right place to. It looks like she ignored the child out of spite because of her mother. Had Jane lived, Elizabeth would’ve sunk into a situation that not even her sister could help her out of
@@MargaretPlantagenetPole yet she never did her any good either. When Elizabeth’s household was being ignored by Henry, it was being brushed aside by Jane too. I feel Jane was like “ meh “ about it
Would Anne have been able to fulfill her end of her bargain with regards to Mary’s status?
Well so it sounds like she did at least broach the subject of bringing her back to Court, to be fair! But don't blame her for backing off.
Anne often gets pegged as a husband stealing harlot, but she really was a feminist that fought for woman's rights. She championed educating girls, and I can see her recognizing that Henry's treatment of Mary as harsh.
I hate King Henry 8th. I DESPISE him. And now, in the US, we have a candidate that mirrors the narcissism of King Henry 8th.
Despite Henry’s treatment of Mary, I can’t hold it as one of his many negatives given the way Mary eventually turned out. As cruel as it may sound, I would rather have had her turned a soft apple, as was quoted, and therefore sparing hundreds of innocent people, the stake. (Hindsight is a privilege I concede).
And I’m saying this is an atheist.
How much of how Mary turned out can be laid at Henry's door, though?
@@Ohforgodssakethatsme If todays psychologist and therapists looked at Mary's case they'd be horrified at what she went through. Initially treated as Henry's pearl, then she was clearly of an age where she would be aware of the growing hostilities between her parents, even if she was by this time in her own residence. Then denied the chance to see her mother for the final years of her life, made to serve her infant half-sister who had now become the heir to the throne. Likely threatened with potential death but also the forefront of any campaign by rival factions dissatisfied with Henry and Anne's union. Add to that continual ill health throughout her life.
It's not an excuse for her later behaviour though arguably we are holding her to todays standards, whereas back in Tudor times there was a genuine true believe in religion and the consequences of not adhering to the bible's teaching. Henry failed his daughters by not been the father they needed. Mary should have had a decent marriage union arranged by her early 20's and then ideally have had her own little family. It might not have swayed her from the desire for the throne but would have ensured her interests were elsewhere diverted.
What did Jane do for Elizabeth? Apart for planning her own queenship before Anne's arrest.
You're delusional if you blame jane for Anne's execution and taking her place. If jane was a homewrecker who stole Henry, then so was anne. There's actual evidence that Jane's family wanted her to be Henry's mistress. Who knows if that's what she even wanted. It's not Jane's fault Henry fell for her and didn't want Anne anymore
And atleast jane never harmed Elizabeth like disgusting Anne who abused and mistreated princess Mary
Jane neglected her, as did Henry. There are records of Elizabeth's guardians begging for money to get some new clothes for the little girl, who had outgrown her old clothes. Neglect is another form of abuse. So Jane really wasn't any better than Anne.
@@ladyv5655 Jane did worse because Elizabeth was an infant not yet three years old almost a baby she was no danger to Jane because in Anne s case Mary was a teen girl and she saw her more of a threat to her and as a result Anne mistreated her But Jane was one of the most conniving hypocrites that I had ever seen Why do you think thather restless spirit roam Hampton Court dressed in a long white shirt with a candle in her hand because she had a lot to do with Anne s downfall i know her brothers were behind her andsupported her but she did it willingly because her own ambition knew no bounds she went as far as walking. Over the bloody headless body of another woman to get what she wanted and got it Anne wanted to win Mary in her own way a big girl while Jane did nothing for a little girl not 3 ignored and neglected her It may sound harsh but I'm glad that Jane scarcely enjoyed her marriage her crown and the birth of the prince it all lasted less than a year and a half only 17 months Jane died 12 days after her son s birth and Anne and her met in the afterlife ha ha karma she has lot to do in Anne s ruin and death more than people think because many of these intrigues were involved in a must of secrecy and mystery Jane came froman unscrupulous unprincipled and evil family look what her dad did seducing his teenage daughter in law her brother Edward s first wife this brother later sent his own brother to death this same brother Thomas attempted to seduce Elizabeth almost brg ti ruin Seymours were low lifes thats why Elizabeth hated them with a passion and did not want them around maybe she knew things that people of today don't know
@@MargaretPlantagenetPole you do know that neglect is just as bad as a beating. As for Jane she may not have been directly the one to proclaim sentence on Anne but she was the one that carried on with a married man. She played her part in Anne downfall. Anne wasn’t even cold in her grave before Jane was in her place. She walked over Anne body to get what she wanted. Say what you want about Anne but the one thing you can’t say about her is that she walked over Katherine of Aragorn dead body to get to Henry.