Shermer is a good skeptic, but I'll doubt how much he has overviews over all geological data of history, paleontology and archeology related... go to the Randall Carlson podcast... I mean the Göbekli tepe ok.. But there WAS a lower sea level before during the ice age. There WAS a sudden major change due to natural disasters ending the ice age AND killing off loads of big animals. The sea levels around Azores WAS lower , quite much. Atlantis myth is from Platon about the islands west of Gibraltar. Well, avoid strawmen. We are not talking advanced. Like it means today. But culture. The problem with some of the crypto archeologists is often that they mix up with postmodernist stuff exaggerating how advanced ancient societies were. THAT pushes off the mainstream. However the mainstream even denies the younger dryas catastrophe and the end of the ice age ending suddenly...
I was on a construction crew in 2016 at a old sears building from 1924. Concrete takes a 100 years to cure and concrete is weak and brittle compared to granite. I had to drill out 3)4 inch holes in this 100 year old concrete. It literally took forever and i used many hammer drill bits. The idea of drilling out 6 inch hows on granite!! If you don't have diamonds on the bit you will be there forever! The only people who can appreciate this Ancient work and the true integrity of granite are those who have dealt with and worked with hard stone. People who've never done construction will never be able to understand, period.
I think it's mainly our modern day perspective that kind of blurs the lines of possibility. There are findings of stone age jewelry that are so meticulously crafted it's hard to believe people were spending a couple hours per day for months if not years to create just a single piece of jewelry. But it might be very well possible that after survival they would dedicate all of their remaining resources to find meaning in something - be it in a believe, in trinkets, astronomy etc.
@wildcountry. Or we just lack an understanding how they did it with simple tools. Here's a video how one person can move and lift a 20 ton block th-cam.com/video/E5pZ7uR6v8c/w-d-xo.html Most blocks used in pyramids are close to around 2 tons. A lot of things are possible because our minds are so good to come up with solutions.
You must be the worst builder I’ve ever come across, I’m an electrician I work in building sites all the time I’ve witness people chisel and work on granite with hand tools. You don’t NEED diamond drills, you use diamond drills because they’re quicker.
I often wonder if guys like Carlson actually believe their own grift or it it doesn't matter at all as long as people buy the books and invite them to speak.
@@thecianinator If I remember correctly from Soviet Marxist history, "Careerism" is a deadly enemy of truth 😅. Honestly, I have no issue with these people espousing the ridiculous, I just don't agree and I will happily fight them, because they are just creatively speculating. If it inspires a few people to be more interested in boring old history (Akkadians? Assyrians? Phht, who cares?) then that's great.
a few years back my brother and i were driving through a state park and at one point we came across an old pickup off the side of the road completely rusted through with trees growing through it. nature can swallow of traces of civilization in decades, so just imagine what 10k years can do.
Agreed. Also the search for trash and tools Which tools and trash are you exactly looking for this is long before the invention of plastic which trash are we expecting to find? Tools from which material exactly that we can expect to still be found ?
Exactly why I argue that most scientist (people with degrees) are mostly mrons. Most of them, having an experience working with more than a few, don't want to see what happens in front of there eyes if it challenges their own dogma, and they do amazing mental gymnastics to justifies their own believes.
@@ivandelac764 lol do you have the same degree or are you a book warrior with out a degree but you believe your smart you need the schooling to know what the hell you’re talking about or why have the degree
I love when David makes a perfect example of what Graham is saying, in an attempt to refute it. . It is 100% a great explanation for how these two key technologies came about simultaneously in one generation.
'academia' is toast these days - 'copper chisels' ????....... 'pounding stones' ????....... 'tombs'????.......... nobody is buying this nonsense anymore
Michael started by saying there is "no evidence to your claim so it is not true" then goes "There is no evidence so my claim is true". rules for thee but not for me
During the conversation, they talk about the possibility that the builders of Gobeklitepe were hunter-gatherers and then that they were agrarians, but there is an important and overlooked space between the two, which is sedentary Neolithic cultures. These are people who settled in an area around an abundant, naturally occurring food source. In the case of Gobeklitepe, that food source was the ancient Einkorn wheat that is native to the slopes and valleys of the nearby mountains. Geneticist Spencer Wells said that all of the 17 varieties of wheat cultivated globally are genetically linked to this original native wheat. So people settled around it, ate it, drank beer made from it, watched it grow, learned to cultivate and all the while, they were adapting to the new concept of settlement. One of the first problems that arise when people begin to settle is waste management. Waste is a problem because it attracts pests, disease, and animals and eventually large predators that can be threatening to the vulnerable members of the colony. There is no evidence of habitation at Gobeklitepe because it was probably situated remotely from the dwellings. There is evidence of the site being in use for at least 2,000 to 3,000 years. Imagine how many people would have been born and died during that period of time. So what did they do with the dead? I think the stone circles were used for sky burials, which is a method of internment still used today in Tibet. The surrounding landscape was not very well suited for in the ground burials. Shallow graves were dangerous because they could be excavated easily by animals and the animals would cultivate an appetite for human flesh and would cause them to prey on the local population. I suppose cremation could have been an option, but it could be challenging in that environment to gather enough wood to fuel fires intense enough to cremate. Vultures do not and would not adapt to preying on humans. It makes a lot of sense to place the human remains in a stone circle with raised walls that were only open to the sky so that vultures and other birds could clean the bones, which can then be gathered and stored or buried by the surviving family members. There is evidence of both small t shaped pillars and bone burial under the plaster floors of domestic dwellings in nearby Catalhoyuk, one of the earliest known housing structures. Over time, as ritual sky burial use declined, people could have, simply out of habit or because it was the right thing to do in this place, used it as a landfill. It could have also been a place where people throw something in for good luck, like a penny in a fountain or when people rub the nose of a statue or something like that. My feeling is that the best place to look for clues of why these structures are there and what they were used for, is human nature. The habits, instincts, fears and desires that are naturally and deeply a part of all of us. The better we understand our own nature, the more we will unravel these kinds of mysteries.
I'm in turkey now I will go and find the answers stand by folks Update 2023 people keep asking for updates i only encountered cannibal chickens my mission ended there. My conclusion Turkey is a land of ancient structures and cannibal chickens go check it out 👽
He basically says cave paintings are are more interesting and the same thing to make the pyramids or Göbekli Tepe. Just no anyone can walk into a cave and do what they painted right now but no one can make the Göbekli Tepe or the pyramids the way they did back then with no modern technology helping them. what a stupid thing to say and he is more educated then we are on this topic just shows educated people can still be stupid at times.
He’s referring to abstract thinking and those cave paintings he’s talking about are 40 50,000 years old compared to something that was built 30,000 years later
@KoryoJin Yes, but he is at the same time saying that it is more impressive than one of the largest megalithic sites ever created at 12k years old. I just find that a little much to be honest. It was more in his delivery of it and slow walk back of his stance the whole time while really being sort of pompous about it. His rhetoric was rather thinly veiled attempts at high brow insults the whole time basically talking down to him in tone.
lol You have to watch the whole podcast. That's Randall Carlson, he's the most intelligent/level headed among them. He's also a berserker. He has a big info dump at one point in it too, takes everyone to school.
Attention Work Crew: This site is to be buried with reverence, and your tools are incredibly valuable. Please remove all tools from the work site at the end of your shift. Failure to do so will result in termination, and may enrage the gods. Thank you for your cooperation. - The Management
@Nick Nack Well, either way, it amounts to the same thing. The more we learn, the more questions we have to ask. It would be fantastic to excavate the entire site and learn more about our history.
Fact , we know when it was barried. That's the only fact . It could have been built the week before, the year before 10, 000 years before. Ant think 9n the Actual age the site was built is all just opinion.
@Nick Nack maybe it's just me, but the comment you responded to seemed to me only showing that the oft-repeated dating info only establishes a lower boundary on the age of the site.
Cave paintings to moving megastructures is “not much of a leap” ? It could take months to move a single stone and it would take days to paint.. Absolutely a masterclass by Randall and Graham in critical thinking.. I look forward to the Graham and mainstream dude that are going to debate on Joes show in late august 👍
What do you mean “critical thinking”? Believing in something that has no basis in evidence is the antithesis of critical thinking. Simply questioning academia is not critical thinking. Please question mainstream scientific theories, and work towards proving the theory; that is how science works. Coming up with your own theories that have no basis in scientific evidence is story-telling, not science. Hancock keeps saying he’s not a archeologist, yet wants to be accepted as an expert by the archeological community. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.
Nah, Graham’s argument was destroyed here. Gobekli tepi is not evidence of a lost advanced civilisation. There’s no reason why hunter gatherers couldn’t have built it
@@atticustay1what other huge megalithic sites have hunter gatherers built? None known? Australian hunter gatherers used stone axe tech dating back to like 750,000 BC. They don't do that shit.
@Jurassic Monkey Well im not an expert about the subject but our ancestors came to Anatolia around 1000 years ago. On the other hand Joe and his guests are talking about 11000 years ago. There is a huge time gap but, i heard from somewhere in the past that locals were considering the mountain top already a sacred place before the discovery. Ofcourse it's a rumor but thats what i heard. God maybe i heard it from this video can't remember, it has been 3 years since i watched it. :)
here's an idea: people built the site. Conditions changed- climate, drought, famine, maybe war, something- and the people who built it were gone. New people moved in and started farming. They found the old stone 'gods' on the hill unnerving. It's like living next to somebody's graveyard. They didn't dare destroy it and risk the wrath of these unknown gods, so they buried it so they wouldn't have to look at it.
@Nick Nack but regardless of the construction process they carved stones and built a massive site and lived in that area for that long, with a population big enough to build those structures, and you think they wouldn't have been able to make pottery? Nothing else but stone would survive for 12000 years.
JRE at its prime. Interesting topics from not very well known people who have nothing but facts and very colorful opinions about things that actually matter
I very much like Graham, but I can’t help but notice his malice towards sherbet, whilst shermer does not show that same feeling. I think Graham had gotten a little too worked up in certain moments but I guess when you are THAT passionate, it would make sense for someone to want to defend the subject so vigorously.
Hey Graham...I'm 82 and a grandma and l started reading the Emmanuel Velikofksy books when I was 15. People laugh, but what's so fearful to skeptics about thinking outside the box? It's the "outside the box thinkers people" who have moved civilization forward while the skeptics have worked hard to stone, behead, imprison and burn at the stake the people who have looked at the ocean and said what's over there or looked at the heavens and said those specks of light are trillions of galaxies. I was a Physiotherapist for 43 years of my life and just getting people to think about new techniques was painful. To my way of thinking skeptics are bull headed because they lack imagination. The gentleman skeptic on this Joe Rogan program has the same hardened flat affect look on his face as 30 years or so ago. Keep searching Graham even if we never learn who carved and moved the Easter Island wonders or raised megalithic stones to the tops of mountains!!! ❤
in the allegedly scientific world, dogma can be akin to their Religion. Those who seek to look beyond the Dogma are castigated, until proven wrong. In this current age of the ever important Scientific grant, few are willing to step outside the box/dogma. Thus, they literally are ascientific. I coined the word. YT can sue me.
This Guy: "Why is there no tools or trash at this obviously sacred place?" Me: I've been to a bunch of churches and have never seen the tools used to build them still laying about or left my trash behind inside them.
@@theproprod211 That's a silly way of thinking. I live in a house that has literally NOTHING in or around it that tells people "how" it was built. I know how it was built, but there isn't anything to indicate that just kicking around waiting to be found by people. Generally speaking you don't leave all your shit laying around when you build stuff, because that would be both weird and wasteful. The tools and implements needed to build anything sufficiently advanced are themselves also advanced, and as such would be coveted by those who used them, not merely discarded and left to rot.
I'm an archaeologist and the sceptic guy isn't talking out of his ass, you usually find a lot of tools burried at archaeological sites, especially big ones
Cyance lol what exactly do you consider to be “logical” this is peer review in action. i don’t mean to be rude, but this may be what he’s saying; people aren’t exposed to fair debate and critical thinking-‘real’ knowledge is given to you in school and that’s it. it’s a stunted way of thinking to only consider total factual stuff limiting yourself and the convo. it almost stopped at the point they realized he dug his heels in almost for the sake of being a skeptic. i agree with you however in that this wasn’t that great especially the full version watch the clip or full one with SCHOCH and rogan. good luck and have a nice day.
Nick Nack i said in action. he’s a phd working out a scenario, a theory of course it’s not factual or guaranteed, a lot of science isn’t. it is however, important we DISCUSS things and not LIMIT ourselves.
@Nick Nack searches for entirely new ways of understanding and exporing unknown topics is helped by outside the box thinking. Just limiting any possible assumption to those already existing until you have overwhelming evidence otherwise is going to limit your potential for learning. Plenty of historians, archeologists included, get stuck trying to make any new evidence fit into existing concepts and theories and limit their ability to expand universal knowledge by staying within those limiting mental parameters. Guys like Einstein were famous for thought experiments that created new ideas and then seeking evidence to support them, rather than just looking at existing facts and analyzing g them from the standard viewpoint. My general point is it doesn't even matter if Graham is right or wrong, his proposals and ideas are worthwhile in the general pursuit of universal knowledge. Failed scientific theories still advance knowledge, and can often inspire new ways of thinking about other problems.
Shermer: "We can't find pieces of broken pottery or discarded tools, so there is nothing to see here". Hancock: "Did you happen to notice the monumental megalithic construction, by any chance ?"
@@Prometheus4096 What if they didn't make pottery? What if they carved wooden bowls or had naturally occurring vessels? Also, didn't they say it was purposefully buried, implying the people left, and, on top of that, that they've uncovered only ~2% of the structures? The lack of pottery at this stage isn't ruling anything out, imo.
Hunter gatherers have to move about so that they do not over hunt an area and run out of food. They do not hunt one area long enough to carve 20ft long slabs out of stone, then carve faces and animals out of the stone in 3D, then move that stone and place it in a fashion that points to magnetic polar earth positions or astrological positions in the sky. Aboriginals were hunter gatherers when the English came here to Australia. They do not have megalithic sites. They did not do carvings into or out of stone. There are no pyramids in Australia. There are no astrological cave paintings. Nothing indicating knowledge of north or other compass direction. Nothing indicating knowledge of earths circumferance or longtitude/latitude position.
Not to mention that hunter gatherers would not have had time to both Hunt and build this shit all at the same time. Someone clearly had to be feeding the laborers that were building this place. There is no way that they would be able to hunt and gather enough food to feed a workforce of this size. That’s not really how it works. When you hunt and gather you are mainly hunting and gathering to support you and your family for the next day or two. You’re not going to be able to kill and or gather and or prepare enough to feed more than that at a time on a daily basis. This means they must of had a surplus of food which means they had agriculture.
You're actually wrong about Aboriginals, they were excellent and I mean excellent trackers and part of the reason was because they had a very good knowledge of what was North, South, East and West. There's actually an Aboriginal language that doesn't have the words 'left' or 'right' in it instead they use West and East, your 'west' hand and your 'east' hand, and it would chance depending on whether your hand really was facing East or West and it's thought their language developed this way just so they would have such a good knowledge of direction and again is part of what made them some of the best trackers in the world. How do we know they were such good trackers? Englishmen would use them to track escaped Aboriginals and they were very impressed by them.
Its a mistake to compare Australian aboriginals to other hunter gatherer societies. The Egyptians of the old kingdom were capable of far greater things than other societies of the same time for example. It is also a mistake to assume that a hunter gatherer society cannot produce a sustainable food surplus. it's possible that these primitives had methods of gathering food that far surpassed societies of the time, just like old kingdom construction engineering was peerless in their era. Further study is needed or you're just making assumptions.
One of my personal theories about ancient civilizations is the reformability of metal. I suspect that people all throughout history would find metal from some older civilization and melt it down and reuse it because it is easier to reform an old metal tool than it is to excavate new metal. Clay pottery as well can be reused, just smash the pots to dust and let them sit in water for a few months and you have fresh clay. Even if it took a couple years, it would still be a huge source of reusable clay to have a pit somewhere soaking old clay objects. Also, things like wood and leather, they can be taken to make new things, and wood can always be burned. So I think that they could have easily had all these things, but in the eons since many people have come in and picked apart the reusable materials until there is nothing left.
Incredible point, as weird as it may sound primitive technology on youtube(the channel) always talks about reusing old pottery to either reinforce bad clay or as a way to just have more potting clay and credits many many ancient techniques from all over the world and it wouldn't be a stretch to say the same for another reusable material that's difficult to find
That's a good point, and we know that has certainly happened to some extent over the ages. One example that comes to mind: there used to be a lot of iron on the Coliseum in Rome, but it was stripped off and made into weapons during times when Rome was under siege, and they never bothered to put it back on again. Throughout most of known history, the norm has been to repair something rather than throw it away. Only now have our manufacturing processes gotten efficient enough that it makes sense to create something new rather than repair something old.
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 hey stupid fuck. did you know NOT one of these experts has ever been on any sites , they got their degrees by reading a book. graham physically and went scuba diving in deep oceans. he can verify what others wrote about. tell me who the fuck the expert , you uneducated moron.
What's the matter with you using common sense like that? Don't you know the world revolves around scientists they should have been honored to leave behind their precious tools for scientists 10,000 year later.
@@dudelikeseriously8418 Who says it was meant to be hidden? Like the guy above you says we don’t know who buried it. It could’ve been another people who came long after the creators. Could be beefing tribes, tribes who didn’t worship those gods who couldn’t destroy it because of how large and advanced it was tried to bury it... Also as someone who uses tools everyday I’m very meticulous about cleaning up & making sure all my tools are accounted for, and my tools are no where near as valuable as theirs. I can go to any Home Depot to grab drills or tons of wrenches, they were building their own tools which took time and more precious. Why would they leave them behind unless they died with them which is usually how ancient tools are found.
I've seen this episode in full a few times and always catch myself on the clips. Every episode with Randal and Graham is worth watching. I would and do recommend it.
While Michael Schermer raises some decent points, his general closed-mindedness on this topic amazes me, especially when he says a cave painting is more impressive/challenging than the largest megalithic structure known to mankind today.
@Nick Nack the organization of the workforce, education system and the technology to feed and house large number of workers on site transport materials knowledge of astrology ect, ect... To build this, is ridiculous to compare with cave drawings with a sloppy 3d effect.
@Nick Nack I don't know about Hancock or his ancient high civilisation claims. But what I know is the comparison between the skills and cognitive abilities needed to fingerpaint an animal on the wall of a cave (very sloppily) and the skills and knowledge required to train, feed, house thousands of workers to build an enormous temple, moving 30 foot rocks in the process, is laughable.
@Nick Nack I saw the video of the site where they show what they have excavated up to now, and how it's only 5% of all the site. The enormous sculpted columns, with engraved 3d depictions of their 10 Gods. This was a bit more complex and sofisticated than what hunter gatherers were known to be able to do to say the least. And far more impressive than the lascaux drawings, and I'm French and I have visited the lascaux caves.
@Nick Nack I have a feeling, like the other guy in the video, that you have no understanding of how collosal construction work is done and what is needed in terms of organisation to pull it off. I also have a feeling that you are not genuine, and you have an agenda. It boggles the mind to see someone argue that a 3d carving of a feline on a 30 foot man made column for example, is at the same level of complexity than the lascaux drawings. It's beyond ridiculous. It's like comparing the iPhone with Morse code transmitters. And then you try to save face by going with "it's artistically on the same level". Well that my friend is subjective, and is not the topic of the matter. You just have no arguments, and you try to make an impossible case to try to refute or dismiss massive new evidence that doesn't fit your agenda (it seems).
I grew up in PNG - when I was about 8 I cut my forearm falling on a rock. My Papuan friend ripped the skin of a citrus 🍊 fruit. Thumbnail sliced it into quarters. After the first 1/2 hour the first piece socked up all the wound fluid. The second was strapped using the spine of a fern like plant. The skin dried shrank and squeezed the wound without stitches also insects stay away from citric acid. Very smart and I respected my learning in another culture as a boy in the 60’s.
You're absolutely right about the fern. It was probably an actual fern or a relative of the fern. You can take a fern and leave the spine as you call it on and just remove the leaves. When you get done it will look like a skeleton. You can take a thick Leaf like an oak leaf or a hickory or a beach and bandage it over top of the cut and somehow someway, the spine of the fern will draw up the skin and close it together and hardly leaves the scar. It's never been done to me but I've seen it done. Interesting story dude
Next time you cut yourself, put the thin membrane between the layers of an onion on it before your bandage. It will heal in lightning speed. I had a Peruvian prep cook show me that years ago. Primitive medicine is incredibly effective
@Stan Armenyan only an idiot would believe he lost the argument. I bet you believe property tax is a benevolent process. The type to kill if told by the "law". Since you are stupid I'm insulting you.
The skeptic in this vid could not have been much worse about trying to argue against the main points of lost civilization though. He honestly strengthens what he's trying to argue against more than anything else.
There are "advanced civilizations" living on the same planet as "hunter gatherers" today. It is a fact. Why is it so hard to believe it hasn't been so for a very very long time. Thank you Joe Rogan for sharing your experiences.
... Because the advanced civilization you speak of has advanced and evolved throughout the ages, and it has been historically documented. To suggest their was a civilization that is comparably advanced just “in different ways” is absurd. Its a claim that would fundamentally rewrite human history, and he offers zero evidence to back it up other than the existence of a few Megaliths.
Because there would be some physical evidence of said “advanced civilization”. Such a large and advanced group of people living on the earth for a “very very long time” would have left something behind. For fucks sake we can find dinosaur skeletons from 65 million years ago. And for some weird reason we can’t find any evidence of some advanced human civilization from 12,000 years ago? That apparently was super advanced and adept at all social organization and society. Give me a fucking break
Perhaps all traces are gone because it's submerged under water. Remember, the coast was further out to sea on all the continents. Look at Google maps, the lighter shade of the sea off the coasts would be above sea level. The amount of land lost was equivalent to Asia and Europe combined. 85% of the world's population live on the coast. The flood, including the massive change in climate would've stifled agriculture, displaced survivors, and great cities and ports of trade would be submerged overnight. Also what if the civilization that thrived understood the balance of nature, and that their form of a funeral was to bury the body completely naturally so that the energy could be returned to nature. Obviously they were organized and advanced enough to build all of the ancient sites we see today, they probably had a much more structured society and sound culture that allowed them to flourish. The survivors would be people living in the woods, or small villages, less educated, more isolated, and now trying to figure out to survive. Humanity took a huge 2 steps back.
Pseudohistory, claiming that an advanced civilisation would've consciously chosen not to use metal tools - that's just illogical. But Hancock makes money off of these theories
I have no clue how I’ve missed this podcast for so long. I’ve been glued since. Thank you for bringing the coolest topics ever. As a closet history fanatic this debate is amazing. Well done, very well done. New fan here 💪🏾👍🏾💪🏾👍🏾
Graham has also debated another fella more recently on JRE as well just in case you haven't seen. Also I'd recommend watching the graham/randall episode as well!
And after that, Michael and Graham went into the cage and Joe narrated the fight. Randall was the referee. Graham won by submission, Michael went to sleep from a choke, he couldn't even tap out in time.
If Shermer is correct, we are to believe that a group of hunter/gatherers stopped roaming while looking for food, and built one of the most impressive stone structures ever constructed. The length of the project and the number of people it would have taken to build such a structure would have required them to settle in one place. This would require them to farm and build dwellings to remain at the site and build the structure. I also don’t think that hunter/gatherer groups traveled in enormous groups of people. It is obvious that if primitive people built this with primitive tools it would have required lots of people to do it. For me, all points to advanced civilization.
Doesn't mean all the hunter-gatherers had to stop hunting and gathering, just that they supported some sort of artist caste who worked on the site day in day out, and ate what was given to them.
@@DonRicoKing I think that's the point. We can't find the evidence that archeologists want, except for the structures themselves. No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did. It opens up a whole load of questions that may contradict the establishment of archeology who have made their livelihoods on previous schools of thoughts, which is what we are all taught growing up. Sometimes the lack of evidence is all the evidence one may need
@@dp3699 "We can't find the evidence that archeologists want" that is what annoys me. You re suggesting that there is a mafia consisting of Archeologists. But that is not true at all. Archeologists are always extremely thrilled, then somebody makes a new discovery.
@@dp3699 "No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did." That is not right at all. There are mathematical and chemical methods to calculate when the building of the pyrmaids startet and ended. How they were build is a different story. It is true, nowadays there is no final theory on how they were build. There are different theories based on experiments and findings at the pyramids. There are also scientific scrolls. But with time the picture is getting clearer. For example some scientist found, that there was a now dried out waterway, which they use to transport the stones to the building site.
Noah Headley That’s big Santa Randall Carlson-genius of a guy. Interesting his input into the debate pretty much crushed schermer so Schermer pretty much ignored it😂
@@garry_thomasalways people like you who slap “conspiracy” onto something to discredit it instead of being open minded to both sides. Anatomically modern humans have been around for nearly 200,000 years, it wouldn’t be a stretch to theorize that there have been “advanced” civilizations before that have been lost to time.
someone that swears like that in a debate weakens their argument , it shows frustration . Having said that , main stream history , science and evolution is all lies .
Not a word from him about the Bosnian pyramids. They are being excavated and studied by scientists now the same as with Gobleki Tepi. Both sites studied at the same time. Now.
We have civilizations today that still live like hunter gatherers. Why couldnt there be different peoples at different levels of development in the past?
Ignore the comments, I know what u mean,. Totally Agree In 1950's, men were the professional, made the money, to support family. Women got married, stayed home and had babies....except one that went to Harvard, then Cornell Law, and then to be Supreme court Justice. There are always outliers.
@Nick Nack Technically there are "civilization" living today with Hunter gather culture. Civilization is just a way to describe man made environment, there are plenty of Amazon tribes and island locked civilization that don't have modern cultures.
Great point. If one were to only find proof of European civilization dating back to the Medieval period, alien archaeologists would assume humanity was an awful lot stupider than they would if they were to discover an Arabian or Asian civilization dating to that time lol
@ " In this broad sense, a civilization contrasts with non-centralized tribal societies, including the cultures of nomadic pastoralists, Neolithic societies or hunter-gatherers, but sometimes it also contrasts with the cultures found within civilizations themselves. "
I have to respectfully disagree sir. it got kind of silly when he started adding his two cents and I LOVE Joe. A great mediator controls the flow and pace of the debate to the best of their ability and the most important aspect, let the experts or guests do the debating.
This would've been a better debate with an actual archeologist instead of a professional sceptic. Graham loves to jump to conclusions with a single piece of information that doesn't fit the accepted model but that piece of information doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is a mountain of evidence of concerning humanity's development before, during and after Gobekli Tepe. All that doesn't just disappear and you get to invent a superior civilization with minimal information.
Yes, Graham is a smart guy with quite original ideas. He's just so invested into his big ancient civilization hypothesis, that he keeps drawing these insane lines all over the place, so it feels like hes often pushing the envelope. My big issue with him is that he keeps playing the victim and talks about how he's under attack from the "archeology establishment" while refusing to even discuss/debate them, thats a red flag to me...
It’s not that Graham pushes it, he just can’t believe the fact scholars alter their theories to cover their errors in their research and still reject his ideas. They truly don’t know either. He said to Graham “we thought hunter and gatherers were not as capable”. The man is still not answering his question, “so they were an advanced civilization?”. Same brain, same skeleton, modern Homo sapiens. You just can’t research further because there were no tools, clothes, pots.., if it’s buried , on purpose or not, as humans we NEED to find out what’s there for our understanding of our own lives. Knowing if these civilizations exist would mark our imprint EVEN MORE SO as a living creatures in this vast universe. We must know our past history. Not a red flag, it’s a green flag to push to fucking find out what is there and how long we’ve been this smart for.
@@ConScanlon I agree. Hancock's attempt to explain away the lack of tools and writing at the site was weak. 'They just decided not to use tools' is not particularly compelling and is the opposite of what an advanced civilisation would do. If I had knowledge and capability to make a job orders of magnitude easier then I would use it.
@@markbodle6339 i mean, the city was burried, right? why should there be tools, clothing or anything if it deliberately was burried as stated by the head archeoligist? But i agree: Graham really had a weird undertone that was very aggressive. I usually like him a lot but here he just seem to be offended.
I'm so confused by Michael's argument or main point, it literally just sounds like he's just stirring shitpot of mainstream archaeology. It must be so frustrating to have a productive conversation in that field man 🙄
I thought that myself but after rewatching it for the 700th time I think he just wants some physical evidence, which actually makes sense. Although I’m with graham on this.
@@tadhgkeaveney4507 He wants trash and tools.. when the site hasn't even been near fully excavated. I don't lean to either side of their arguments, but that's pretty nonsensical.
@@tadhgkeaveney4507check out uncharted X. The proof is all over We just need to look at it properly with proper context. Eg. 1100 ton blocks and crazy math encoded in pyramids. There are other sites attributed to later dates than gobekli tepe that look like it.
90% of the conversations in this field are dudes fangirling over literally anything any random girl could ask "so what are you guys doing?" And theyd have to sit trough an hour long explenation of some historical niche before another joins in with their own knowledge of the subject Thats not even a joke, a co worker was successfully flirting with a girl right up until she asked him that question and we didnt even notive her leave You hear any history relating topic and some historian just jumps up and joins the convo
Hancock is mostly a money man..He seems to have started out as a more genuine archeologist type, but flew into the americanized world of trendism. They create and analyze trends and then comes the DVDs.... Dollars. This is why we see that blend of postmodernism or a kind of neo-theosophy with more genuine interest in the ancient past. This is very bad because one ruins a whole subject this way.
@@nachomagallanico The most effective con men and women have careers in advertising, public relations, television broadcasting and hold high office in government. Graham Hancock is an amateur in comparison.
@@joecaner a real con man that sells books, lots of books, making millions giving the fake image of a Maverick, while he’s just spreading lies and speculation. He has the real profile of a con man. In addition he really seems intellectually dishonest, of this I’m not sure, but he seems to be erudite enough to realise that his hypothesis lacks completely of substance, hence he plays the victim and discredits a whole field of research… so feeling egocentric. And then you listen to his fans defending him like the leader of a cult… cause he reveals the truth hidden by the établissement. Real con man….so full of shit
If it is thought that much more of the construction is buried much deeper under the ground , then the tools are likely to be found deep down the floor area. The argument of not finding any tools should be invalidated because no one, even builders twelve thousand years ago wouldn't store tools around the top floor of any building.
My guess is that there must be another significant area chock full of tools and equipment (I see no reason as why they'd destroy the tools, maybe only conceal them, possibly in another hill/cave)
Dig deeper and find the tools then. His point was that tools haven't been found YET, so don't ASSUME they will be found somewhere else. Literally the only evidence is there are big rocks in place, which we know primitive people are able to do, so why is it necessary that an advanced civilization lived there?
I'm not entirely done the video, but do they keep jumping around the fact that Gobekli Tepe is on an entirely different scale than anything chronologically close to it? If Gobekli Tepe was really built by advanced hunter-gatherers, then how come they, or other hunter-gatherers, fail to produce anything remotely like it for thousands of years? This can mean two things, either we need to do a lot more digging for structures around this time period, or there was a certain point of great advancement in our history, then they vanished and humanity slowly advanced from the ground up until where we are now.
Randal Carlson said that there was probably a massive climate catastrophe around thar time as well. So my guess is that wiped out any evidence of the trash Shermer loves so much
But do you notice how Michael Schermer is more impressed with the paintings. He is ignoring the advanced skill it would take to build structures like that in that time period! If he admits it's impressive it no longer supports the narrative that ancient people were dim witted.
Because the lost civilisation was the first people who taught the hunter gatherers their skills. Suppose for a minute Atlantis was the civilisation that was lost, the survivors making their way amongst hunter gatherers in order to survive. As those survivors die off and the knowledge and teachings of the technology they had to cut stone generation to generation gets weaker we gradually lose a lost part of our history with knowledge that is also lost. Imagine someone out of nowhere one time taught you how to build a bike and put it all together. If you passed the knowledge down to your children and them to theirs and so on gradually the skill and knowledge that this first person had would be forgotten entirely. The real mystery is who were these people who taught the hunter gatherers to do this and what other knowledge did they have that was wiped out of existence? like Graham said, we really are a species with amnesia.
Dude keeps on asking what they mean by "advanced" and they keep saying the construction was big, and intricately carved, but no one seems to drive home the addtional idea of the complex math involved
I wouldn't say that complex math is required. I've been in construction for 20 years and a relatively dumb guy with experience can build well and simple things like straight lines and plumb walls are easy to do. It's possible to create this place with moderate knowledge only a few generations after first attempting rock carving and building with stone. It's clearly more special than just a house of stone, so those people had this knowledge for some time.
Sir, you must be smoking crack. Randal didn’t put forward anything of interest or anything to spark an intelligent thought. I’m sure he’s a clever guy, but he only said things which go without saying or was of no use to the discussion. Watch his segment again, he’s trying to sound clever with technical jargon rather than be real and straight to the point like Hancock.
From what I understand, all gobekli teppe proves is that somehow humans figured out how to make a giant structure. This only shows that they were architecturally more developed than we thought. There are two possibilities here, either they figured it out in their own or someone taught them. On graham’s argument on why couldn’t this technology have been passed on by an advanced civilization to these hunter gatherers? Well that theory needs some evidence to gain support. Evidence like drawings or sculptures dedicated to this knowledge transfer. Or some proof of ancient technology which was advanced. Of which there is none. You can’t very well disprove ghosts but in order to believe in ghosts you need strong proof of ghostly activity. Similarly to claim that an advanced civilization existed, you need strong proof for this “advancement”. Also, graham hancock is deliberately vague on his definition of advanced. What exactly makes them advanced? What is the criteria for this advancement? If you can’t define that then how do you know what kind of evidence to look for?
Where's the evidence that shows a linear evolutionary trajectory of the technological advances made by hunter-gatherer bands in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of Turkey?
Shermer is obviously a very intelligent guy, I think his disconnect is that he either doesn't care about astronomy or see it as important. The fact that there are astrological implications on the stone pillars shows that these people who built it weren't just "hunter gatherers". Science is perfectly fine saying we found it, who cares why, move on. Others question why. Interesting conversation for sure.
Most former theists just exchange their devotion from one thing to another. So, Shermer is dogmatically skeptical, if only because you cannot logic yourself your way out of your own life experience. When you are born with low IQ, you stay with low IQ, no matter how much you learn throughout your life--after all, IQ tests do not measure knowledge.
@@hardcorefreshify the problem is ,not just Gobekli Tepe, a lot of Ancient sites around the world have obvious astronomical alignments that mainstream guys such as him self refuse to acknowledge and say it’s just a coincidence
@@hardcorefreshify True north isn’t something that accidentally happens. Plus it’s said to be a temple, a sacred place. So wouldn’t it make sense that a sacred place, that is perfectly aligned isn’t just coincidence. If it was a house, sure, you could set it up anywhere. But it’s a giant structure so it shows intent that people put lots of resources into it.
Definitely. But we do have proof all over this planet, the Sphinx, Gobekli, all the citys and stone works along the coastlines under water off of many countries. Etc.....
@@RenR70 I agree 100% pretty much proven beyond a doubt that the Sphinx is 12,000 years old minimal. The early dynastic Egyptians said in their writings that they where a legacy of a early civilization ( zepteppy) . The plausibility of Atlantis. So if we have been around for 200,000 to 300,000 years as modern homo sapiens how many times have we climb to a advanced (more or less then today) civilization and wiped out by, comet/ meteor, plague, nuclear/weapons of mass destruction , etc.... and started over again. Not much is going to last for 20, 30, 40 100 Thousand years except stone.
I’m leaning towards believing hancock on this one because in order for them to have built something like that, they would’ve needed a large society with an established hierarchy which seems to indicate it was an intelligent culture
At the very end when Shermer states that cave paintings are equally impressive to mega monolithic sites, is absurd. It highlights the exact struggle that Graham had been claiming existed this entire episode but that Shermer was denying existed. "Mainstream" science doesn't want to do science things, such as asking question to push their own boundaries and assumptions. I'm here 6 years later, its great that Graham and Randall have a huge following where they can highlight some of these insane mysteries that others seemingly were quick to gloss over.
If you look at NYC and Afghanistan, you’d wouldn’t think they’d be in the same world, let alone the same year in 2021. Whatever was there 12,000 years ago, lived like that and given the environment and the way the world has changed it has preserved everything the way it is. Certain parts of the world lived what seemed like different time frames. Not sure if that makes sense
@@kshelley121 You don’t even need to think about Afghanistan. There are currently many tribes in South America, Africa, Indian Ocean etc. who live way more primitively than the peoples of Göbekli Tepe.
I super miss this Joe. I remember watching this after work years ago while cooking dinner and then waiting to finish watching it before eating. I still remember that night. Now I often find its a lot of anger from either Joe or guests or something way too focuses on a minute detail of society (i.e. so called culture wars).
The Göbekli Tepe used recycled biodegradable materials not metals! LOL from the guy who thought read and writing was not advancement! And doesnt understand how science works and doesnt like how science works!🤦♂️🤣 BELIEVE MY BASELESS CLAIMS! HE SAYS! 🤦♂️🤣
Interesting watching this 6 years later where archeologists uncovered residential communities & businesses stretching across the land finding decorative beads, tools, etc within those 'communities'... I get Michael's thought process because I once was stubborn as well (still am but catching myself). At the end of the day we should never conclude on anything until everyone agrees on the answer. There's so much we don't understand and still uncovering that we won't answer in our lifetime. If anything we are still pioneers
Laurence Kim maybe, but you’re saying that through a lens of modern Westerner who inherited Judeo-Christian sentiments. Not all cultures shared the same models of what is sacred or profane. Even today, religions differ.
@@greekgodx6560 Yeah, but think about how far away Stonehenge is from wherever they were living. Archaeology may never find whatever dwellingplaces the builders had.
@@conorbaker7684 Did you just assume someone's religious beliefs outright online? Damn lol. How did you know they were religious? And that it was of the western variety? Hey, speaking of which, since you "know a lot", which religious group does put trash on their religious sites??
triknives I didn’t “assume” anything. Laurence is a Western name, and Laurence was using a Western language (namely English), watching a podcost produced in a Western country,so it’s not a stretch of the imagination that they are a Westerner. You don’t have to be religious to think in a Judeo-christian paradigm. Actually, if you read my statement, the point is that you shouldn’t assume anything since we don’t “know it all” (your words, btw, not mine and I never said them). And being that the Aztecs had a goddess named Shit-Eater who absolved the sins of the world by eating their shit before they die, or the Christian gnostic sect which had ritualistic sex, or the institutionalized pedophilia/pederasty of several historical religions, I would say that it’s also not a ruled out possibility that a society that mayhaps existed 12k years ago may have not separated the sacred from the profane the same way that we do.
To me this is when Joe Rogan’s podcast is at its best. You have this guy with some out there ideas that you get to hear out with a standard expert who can fact check some of his propositions in real time. You can hear some new ideas while being grounded in reality.
Michael Shermer isn’t a standard expert he’s just the editor of skeptic magazine. He has no background or qualifications in archeology. It’s more that he cites dogma and other peoples already written theories.
@@stuartphilips5008 "he's not an archaeologist" is an appeal to authority, it's a worthless statement. Michael's issue with Graham (and shared by others) is his use of the "god of the gaps" and his use of words that he never elaborates on and talks around his choice of words when pressed on it "advanced technology" "high technology" "advanced civilizations" he is an interesting guy but he is also full of a lot of wind, he is very good at talking about what we do know but adding in his little bit of story telling in such a way that people who are not informed will be completely mislead.
@@adversary0932 lol what? Graham continues to posit unverifiable theories while schemer just follows up with there’s no evidence for that OR we have pretty good explanations already.
I'm half way through, and I'm not even sure I understand what they're arguing about. Hancock says they were 'advanced', Shermer asks him what he means by advanced, Hancock says "well, they created the megaliths at Gobekli Tepe", Shermer says that doesn't mean they were advanced. Rinse and repeat.
I don't get shermers argument. They were able to build this thing 2,000 years before the pyramids with no discernible method to do so. It's not his way of advanced meaning writing and tools and shit.
One guy says, "hey hunter gatherers were more capable than we thought." The other says, "There existed an ancient ultra advanced civilization though I have no evidence I know I am correct."
Graham's story about the New Scientist magazine is pretty revealing of how his brain works. He made it sound very ironic and vindicating, but if you listen closely, all that's happened is he saw the cover story that was published and decided in his head that his book "essentially" said the same thing. "Civilization is older and more mysterious than we thought" is a pretty broad/generic idea and it wouldn't even necessarily be remarkable if Graham's critics published the same phrase that Graham had published without realizing it, but just to reiterate, they did not publish the same phrase because Graham never published that phrase, he just retroactively used the phrase to self-describe his book and declared himself a victory. Finally, Graham's book is not "essentially" about civilization being older and more mysterious. The essential message of his book, which is much more specific and is written in the TITLE AND SUBTITLE, is that a higher civilization influenced all other lesser civilizations that came after it.
Brilliant at ignoring facts instead of following them... he is a good talker, but has no evidence for his ideas, ignores evidence. Graham mis-represents the field of archeology consistently. He is nothing but a grifter....
@@cjp1599 ...its "grifta" (ie. a swindler ) "grifter" is a shit bike "griftas "sold to an unsuspecting public in the late 1970...get it right mate.Cheers
Why is it so hard to admit there was a civilisation there. Shermer acts like the theory that people settled there is on the same level as aliens or the supernatural.
I find myself in the middle. I think Hancock is getting a little carried away with his theory despite the evidence not being quite there. However, I also feel shurmer is being a little over dismissive at times.
yeah but Hancocks doing a good job of stating he's not the definitive answer where Shumer is kinda like telling him he's not allowed to speculate. And I totally agree that speculation is speculation and you shouldn't do so unless you have hard evidence, but Hancock is just like, "dude I write books. I'm not a scientist. Im just tripping on this shit and wanna share my vibe" Hahaha.
Zir S Hey zir. Graham actually made this point before. You have a mainstream which already has ideas from their own work. I’m sure we have all been in a debate on whatever topic it is with someone that sometimes never ends, unless either you or the other person is proven wrong with some type of evidence. It’s the same thing with archeology think about how hard it is to throw ideas and in Grahams case very intelligent ideas at an archeologist with his own views. Not easy and they better be really amazing ideas and very well researched
The excavated parts of Gobekli Tepe are the younger portions. The unexcavated parts are older, as shown by the progression of dates. With the discovery of Karahan Tepe & other Tas Tapele sites being proved to be older than the excavated parts of Gobekli Tepe, it's interesting to note that excavations have stopped at Gobekli Tepe. It's almost as if mainstream archaeologists are afraid to continue, for fear of what they may find.
I think you may need to research more. The flood mentioned in the bible is the same flood mentioned in Sumerian writings & further evidenced by the world - wide floods mentioned by other cultures. There is geophysical eveidence of this flood. The story of Noah is quite obviously the story recounted in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which pre - dates the biblical story. Archaeologists aren't devout atheists, just dependent on the mainstream narrative of archaeolgical dating currently upheld by such people as Hawas, who is happily skulking around Egypts most ancient sites, often under cover of darkness, interfering & quite possibly removing any evidence he finds that does not support him & his theories & espoused timeline.
Gobekli Tepe is quite a bit more advanced than the primitive cave paintings of Italy. Hard to imagine a bunch of nomadic hunter-gatherers suddenly learned advanced rock quarrying and sculpting techniques at such an early date. But it seems humanity has had pockets of more high-minded peoples going back 10s if not 100s of thousands of years. I think that wherever the Sumerians suddenly and inexplicably inherited their advanced civilization from, there is probably some link with Gobekli Tepe and other such yet-to-be-discovered sites in that part of the world.
@@harveyblevins74 I have a personal theory that certain sites of dense and consistent resources would sometimes bring multiple smaller hunter gatherer populations together, and I think a result of that established regional conglomeration was those multiple cultures coming together to build certain small cultural hubs to share those resources. I mean from what we assume hunter gathers would fight each other over pockets of land like this, but what if that wasn’t always the case, and some realized that if there was enough to go around everyone could benefit from it? Over time as the cultures would become more and more homogeneous, the sight would gain greater and greater cultural significance and grow larger, and as it grew larger more and more people would spend time around it leading to people spending time around large amounts of natural resources in turn to possible leading advancements in agriculture as population density would inevitably rise. I think this site in particular was a early-mid stage of this scenario happening
we need more of these types of podcasts. so interesting to listen to regardless of which side you believe. involving the public in high level scientific debate is great for everyone.
Maybe it's a great idea for the non scientists, all the time. I'm not implying that an average citizen shouldn't want to learn about science, in fact thats a huge net positive. However, when they act like they actually know better than somebody with a relevant education, we have a giant effing problem. Not everybody that can run a keyboard or even a pen and paper has an opinion worth being heard. I certainly don't ask my chiropractor to fly an airplane, I defer that task to a pilot. Competence is competence throughout all life and lifeforms.
@@obtuseangler768 Rogan podcast raises subjects that might be important. A challenge is that such a format is too short in time for any depth debate at all. First thing to do is to go through all of the content on Kosmographia channel on TH-cam on this subject. Surprise ,that is an effort. To learn things one must provide an effort. Only thereafter one can even be qualified to have an opinion on whether the Carlson view is stronger or weaker than any other about the subject.
@@obtuseangler768- If you knew anything about archaeology or philosophy of science, you would understand that archaeology is hardly a science. Archaeologists may use specific scientific methods and techniques for things like excavation and measurement, but that makes their methods 'science-oriented' at best. It doesn't change the nature of archaeology itself.
It's funny that they are effectively agreeing but arguing about semantics. Graham effectively believes that it was built by an advanced civilization and Schermer believes that hunter gatherers were more advanced than originally thought. So the argument seems to be about the somewhat dismissive way that he still calls them hunter gatherers. Also Schermer falls victim to the fallacy that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
yeah, and hancock falls in the fallacy that absence of evidence allows you to publish unssoported ideas that you potrair as something fair when you have people challenging you but you sell it as evidence in seminars and books with pretentious names
You're missing it entirely. Graham thinks that the people who built the site were from an advanced, much more advanced, fallen civilization that had metal tools and all sorts of other advanced technology. That this advanced civilization was located somewhere else that is lost--- which is entirely without evidence and ridiculous.
Graham is trying to make a case for civilizations that were more advanced than is known for that time period. He wants to write books about mysterious past civilizations, because people buy them. He needs this to remain mysterious. Remember what Shermer said about motive? That was a quick left jab, that went unblocked.
Our ancestors mapped star cycles twenty seven thousand years long, When you build anything you don't back fill with rubbish and broken tools. What a stupid argument. The Aztecs and Mayans didn't use metal or wheels to forge all those buildings, pyramids, golden statues and artificial islands. Obsidian swords and stone tools did just fine. Shermer is a professional skeptic. Of course he's going to act the way he does.
Usually you don't fill it with this stuff on purpose, but it happened virtually everywhere that there have been excavations and in fact shards and scraps not seldomly are an even more important source of archeological insight than the actual monuments.
I agree with your statement all the way, with the exception of the obsidian swords part. Obsidian is extremely hard to forge, especially to the point of usage without shattering or chipping. Unless I just got r/whooosh'd.
Graham sounds more educated, well thought and well spoken than Michael Shermer and Graham is not a trained scientist. Meanwhile Michael Shermer seems to be trying very hard to dismiss Graham's theories with weak arguments and he was fighting a losing battle.
Almost like it’s a silly way to communicate what is true. Debates are fun, but judging what is true just because someone is more well spoken seems silly to me.
@@bisk1407 Debates are worse than that. There are various tactics that can be used, by a skilled and aggressive debater, to make your opponent appear weak or wrong or to force them into a corner which the audience may not see happening right before them. Debates are more akin to salesmanship than discussion.
I would like to recommend Miniminutemen, a channel here on TH-cam that made a multi part series discussing every point and episode Hancock made in his Netflix show and explains and debunks all of them. I was intrigued by Grahams points but watching Miniminutemen really put it in perspective how ridiculous some of his claims are.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781- "Miniminutemen"? Are you seriously recommending that garbage channel? Why not some low IQ TikTok influencer then, or some trash cable television channel like the History Channel, or The Learning Channel (TLC)? I'm just asking.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781 Miniminutemen did a very good job on some points, but i felt they, like this michael guy missed the point of some of grahams statement. Ultimatley, we know have buildings from atleast 9,000 bc. Miniminute men seemed to give very crap explanations on that point. Either Hunter Gatherer somehow how the extra man power to be able to have astronomers, and skilled labourers. which is unlikely considering evidence of agriculture was in mesopetamia atleast 13,000 years ago. Or there was a civilisation before the sumerians. in which case Graham would be off by a couple thousand years but still would be ultimatly right about a lost civilisation.
Even with the internet and modern day tech I would be surprised if laymen who usually hunt or do other stuff could build something like Gobekli Tepe if they just came together.
@timwins31 because he has to keep the narrative that the mainstream acheologists built, that civilization wasnt advanced until white people caught up and started building/stealing things. Anything before that point, "not advanced they were just cave idiots that accidentally made this stuff"
I notice that Scientist do not talk about the culture that must have existed to create this site. Notice the carvings are not into the rock but are actually carved from the rock. This requires a higher level of artistry. In order to have these artists you need a support system. Using the model developed to estimate native American tribes prior to the Europeans coming into their lands, we know for each warrior it took 11 other Indians to support that one warrior. Now to support one artisan, you would need 11 people. People planting and growing food, people building houses, people making clothes, people making tools, religious leaders. This shows a large and well-organized society.
Yes they did, nails, wood off cuts, pieces of plasterboard, wall plugs, packaging from wall sockets etc. 10 years in working in construction you see it a lot.
Even if hypothetically you can’t find the tools, we have the structure. They must have been built somehow. The tools existed. Whether they are destroyed or we just can’t pinpoint their location is irrelevant. We know they existed.
Standard lack of understanding the burden of proof here. You can't make a claim and say "my claim is right or has equal value till proven wrong." That is simply a poor way of thinking. If you assert you need to demonstrate that it is in fact possible, based on what we know or demonstrate your work to how you've decided its an option. Taking the position of "I don't know" until evidence demonstrates otherwise is the only position to take. Which is exactly what was asked. Instead they got upset that they can't speculate ancient aliens, and rabbits.
I want joe to get back to these kinds of talks
same!
W3rd
I’d be cool if he had graham on once a month I’d be happy
I want the JRE to be live on TH-cam again...
Shermer is a good skeptic, but I'll doubt how much he has overviews over all geological data of history, paleontology and archeology related... go to the Randall Carlson podcast... I mean the Göbekli tepe ok.. But there WAS a lower sea level before during the ice age. There WAS a sudden major change due to natural disasters ending the ice age AND killing off loads of big animals. The sea levels around Azores WAS lower , quite much. Atlantis myth is from Platon about the islands west of Gibraltar. Well, avoid strawmen. We are not talking advanced. Like it means today. But culture. The problem with some of the crypto archeologists is often that they mix up with postmodernist stuff exaggerating how advanced ancient societies were. THAT pushes off the mainstream. However the mainstream even denies the younger dryas catastrophe and the end of the ice age ending suddenly...
Joe should use some of that spotify money and excavate the rest of Gobekli Tepe lol
its in turkey near the syrian border, I don't think that would be a good idea or investment.
The area is well protected from invasions. Half of Turkey's army is there.
@@thexneo3528 very true with airplanes constantly on combat air patrol
@@mawortz why not? Sure there’s a war there but there’s A lot Turkish soldiers there protecting the border
That would take the JRE to the next level
I was on a construction crew in 2016 at a old sears building from 1924. Concrete takes a 100 years to cure and concrete is weak and brittle compared to granite. I had to drill out 3)4 inch holes in this 100 year old concrete. It literally took forever and i used many hammer drill bits. The idea of drilling out 6 inch hows on granite!! If you don't have diamonds on the bit you will be there forever! The only people who can appreciate this Ancient work and the true integrity of granite are those who have dealt with and worked with hard stone. People who've never done construction will never be able to understand, period.
A lot of the granite they used was poured in place.
I think it's mainly our modern day perspective that kind of blurs the lines of possibility. There are findings of stone age jewelry that are so meticulously crafted it's hard to believe people were spending a couple hours per day for months if not years to create just a single piece of jewelry. But it might be very well possible that after survival they would dedicate all of their remaining resources to find meaning in something - be it in a believe, in trinkets, astronomy etc.
@@h.hickenanaduk8622 What would hold the molten granite for a mold? And all blocks look different in some way not nearly the same
@wildcountry. Or we just lack an understanding how they did it with simple tools. Here's a video how one person can move and lift a 20 ton block th-cam.com/video/E5pZ7uR6v8c/w-d-xo.html
Most blocks used in pyramids are close to around 2 tons. A lot of things are possible because our minds are so good to come up with solutions.
You must be the worst builder I’ve ever come across, I’m an electrician I work in building sites all the time I’ve witness people chisel and work on granite with hand tools. You don’t NEED diamond drills, you use diamond drills because they’re quicker.
"Maybe sometimes your skin is so thick you can't sense anything around you" is one of the best Hancock insults ever.
I want to double click on your statement. Bless quote is right!
What’s Hancock Insult???🤔🤷🏿♂️
@@Stobadd93 8.36
😂😂😂🔥🔥🔥🔥
Well this 5 years later becames you Daily fight
Randall Carlson is a true G for patiently waiting to speak his piece
Fr
I often wonder if guys like Carlson actually believe their own grift or it it doesn't matter at all as long as people buy the books and invite them to speak.
Read this comment seconds before he spoke 😂
@@tpxchallenger maybe it's like a clinical narcissism thing, where they have an emotional need to believe they're important.
@@thecianinator If I remember correctly from Soviet Marxist history, "Careerism" is a deadly enemy of truth 😅. Honestly, I have no issue with these people espousing the ridiculous, I just don't agree and I will happily fight them, because they are just creatively speculating. If it inspires a few people to be more interested in boring old history (Akkadians? Assyrians? Phht, who cares?) then that's great.
Randall Carlson was impressively neutral throughout the first 18 minutes of the video. In fact, I didn't even know he was there.
Lol I had no idea a third guest was there until he spoke
Randalf the Grey speaks only when necessary. No more.
@@sirloin7633 one of the best comments ive read all week! and it's thursday already
Randalf came with the eagles when he chimed in
Hi, I would love to get your opinions on the topics I cover on my channel! I am new and would love to get more subs and exposure! Thanks QEC
a few years back my brother and i were driving through a state park and at one point we came across an old pickup off the side of the road completely rusted through with trees growing through it. nature can swallow of traces of civilization in decades, so just imagine what 10k years can do.
Agreed. Also the search for trash and tools
Which tools and trash are you exactly looking for this is long before the invention of plastic which trash are we expecting to find?
Tools from which material exactly that we can expect to still be found ?
Exactly why I argue that most scientist (people with degrees) are mostly mrons. Most of them, having an experience working with more than a few, don't want to see what happens in front of there eyes if it challenges their own dogma, and they do amazing mental gymnastics to justifies their own believes.
@@ivandelac764 you're an idiot friendo
@@ivandelac764 lol do you have the same degree or are you a book warrior with out a degree but you believe your smart you need the schooling to know what the hell you’re talking about or why have the degree
@@ivandelac764 true books are nothing compared to doing actual work. Also computer work too
I love when David makes a perfect example of what Graham is saying, in an attempt to refute it. . It is 100% a great explanation for how these two key technologies came about simultaneously in one generation.
'academia' is toast these days - 'copper chisels' ????....... 'pounding stones' ????....... 'tombs'????.......... nobody is buying this nonsense anymore
Michael started by saying there is "no evidence to your claim so it is not true" then goes "There is no evidence so my claim is true". rules for thee but not for me
During the conversation, they talk about the possibility that the builders of Gobeklitepe were hunter-gatherers and then that they were agrarians, but there is an important and overlooked space between the two, which is sedentary Neolithic cultures. These are people who settled in an area around an abundant, naturally occurring food source. In the case of Gobeklitepe, that food source was the ancient Einkorn wheat that is native to the slopes and valleys of the nearby mountains. Geneticist Spencer Wells said that all of the 17 varieties of wheat cultivated globally are genetically linked to this original native wheat. So people settled around it, ate it, drank beer made from it, watched it grow, learned to cultivate and all the while, they were adapting to the new concept of settlement. One of the first problems that arise when people begin to settle is waste management. Waste is a problem because it attracts pests, disease, and animals and eventually large predators that can be threatening to the vulnerable members of the colony. There is no evidence of habitation at Gobeklitepe because it was probably situated remotely from the dwellings. There is evidence of the site being in use for at least 2,000 to 3,000 years. Imagine how many people would have been born and died during that period of time. So what did they do with the dead? I think the stone circles were used for sky burials, which is a method of internment still used today in Tibet. The surrounding landscape was not very well suited for in the ground burials. Shallow graves were dangerous because they could be excavated easily by animals and the animals would cultivate an appetite for human flesh and would cause them to prey on the local population. I suppose cremation could have been an option, but it could be challenging in that environment to gather enough wood to fuel fires intense enough to cremate. Vultures do not and would not adapt to preying on humans. It makes a lot of sense to place the human remains in a stone circle with raised walls that were only open to the sky so that vultures and other birds could clean the bones, which can then be gathered and stored or buried by the surviving family members. There is evidence of both small t shaped pillars and bone burial under the plaster floors of domestic dwellings in nearby Catalhoyuk, one of the earliest known housing structures. Over time, as ritual sky burial use declined, people could have, simply out of habit or because it was the right thing to do in this place, used it as a landfill. It could have also been a place where people throw something in for good luck, like a penny in a fountain or when people rub the nose of a statue or something like that. My feeling is that the best place to look for clues of why these structures are there and what they were used for, is human nature. The habits, instincts, fears and desires that are naturally and deeply a part of all of us. The better we understand our own nature, the more we will unravel these kinds of mysteries.
Well thought out. I read it all:)
This is great man thank you I enjoyed reading.
As everyone else is saying great comment man. It was a great read.
Really good info and read 🙏
Appreciate your theories and different and rational points of view.
I'm in turkey now I will go and find the answers stand by folks
Update 2023
people keep asking for updates i only encountered cannibal chickens my mission ended there. My conclusion Turkey is a land of ancient structures and cannibal chickens go check it out 👽
And!?
@CANADIAN REBEL I only found cannibal chickens sorry I let you guys down I'm a bad agent of truth
@CANADIAN REBEL 👽👍
What if..hear me out....since there wasnt much to do in ancient times besides not dying...what if....they did it out of boredom
@@jkee9760 exactly what i was thinking
“People have been carving stone for thousands of years”
yes that’s the point
Comparing a cave painting and the largest megalithic site ever discovered and saying “eh basically the same” is absolutely insane.
He basically says cave paintings are are more interesting and the same thing to make the pyramids or Göbekli Tepe. Just no anyone can walk into a cave and do what they painted right now but no one can make the Göbekli Tepe or the pyramids the way they did back then with no modern technology helping them. what a stupid thing to say and he is more educated then we are on this topic just shows educated people can still be stupid at times.
It's like saying because you can build a log cabin and in a few years you can build the Hoover Damn
He’s referring to abstract thinking and those cave paintings he’s talking about are 40 50,000 years old compared to something that was built 30,000 years later
@KoryoJin Yes, but he is at the same time saying that it is more impressive than one of the largest megalithic sites ever created at 12k years old. I just find that a little much to be honest. It was more in his delivery of it and slow walk back of his stance the whole time while really being sort of pompous about it. His rhetoric was rather thinly veiled attempts at high brow insults the whole time basically talking down to him in tone.
No, it's completely rational.
Dude with the beard and blue shirt came outta nowhere lmao
lol You have to watch the whole podcast. That's Randall Carlson, he's the most intelligent/level headed among them. He's also a berserker. He has a big info dump at one point in it too, takes everyone to school.
Randall was takin a big ol shit.
This made me really laugh 😂😂
The smart ones are always listening to others and talk when they've formed some strong arguments
@@Ninja9191 true asf
Legend has it that to this day, Joe is still trying to establish that *humans* built it.
Joe rogan is Gobeklitepe
Tobeckli gepe is jogen roe
@@legitimate_opposition2002 yis
Let’s make this clear we know humans made this
No one's arguing about that. We know humans built it. Who else would have built it? Cattle?
Attention Work Crew:
This site is to be buried with reverence, and your tools are incredibly valuable.
Please remove all tools from the work site at the end of your shift.
Failure to do so will result in termination, and may enrage the gods.
Thank you for your cooperation.
- The Management
@Nick Nack I think you missed the joke
@Nick Nack Well, either way, it amounts to the same thing. The more we learn, the more questions we have to ask. It would be fantastic to excavate the entire site and learn more about our history.
"I'm getting sick of these menial construction works. I might move to Atlantis."
-9000BCE HUMAN
Fact , we know when it was barried. That's the only fact . It could have been built the week before, the year before 10, 000 years before. Ant think 9n the Actual age the site was built is all just opinion.
@Nick Nack maybe it's just me, but the comment you responded to seemed to me only showing that the oft-repeated dating info only establishes a lower boundary on the age of the site.
Cave paintings to moving megastructures is “not much of a leap” ?
It could take months to move a single stone and it would take days to paint..
Absolutely a masterclass by Randall and Graham in critical thinking.. I look forward to the Graham and mainstream dude that are going to debate on Joes show in late august 👍
He's not talking about the physical acts to do so. He's referring to the intellect to do so.
What do you mean “critical thinking”? Believing in something that has no basis in evidence is the antithesis of critical thinking.
Simply questioning academia is not critical thinking. Please question mainstream scientific theories, and work towards proving the theory; that is how science works.
Coming up with your own theories that have no basis in scientific evidence is story-telling, not science. Hancock keeps saying he’s not a archeologist, yet wants to be accepted as an expert by the archeological community. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.
@@CaptnCanada85You don’t work to prove the mainstream idea retard
Nah, Graham’s argument was destroyed here. Gobekli tepi is not evidence of a lost advanced civilisation. There’s no reason why hunter gatherers couldn’t have built it
@@atticustay1what other huge megalithic sites have hunter gatherers built? None known? Australian hunter gatherers used stone axe tech dating back to like 750,000 BC. They don't do that shit.
As a Turk, it is really funny to hear “hill with a belly”(göbekli tepe) a billion times.
Well, thank you for the language lesson there....I am now going to laugh when I hear people say it, too lol
@Jurassic Monkey Well im not an expert about the subject but our ancestors came to Anatolia around 1000 years ago. On the other hand Joe and his guests are talking about 11000 years ago. There is a huge time gap but, i heard from somewhere in the past that locals were considering the mountain top already a sacred place before the discovery. Ofcourse it's a rumor but thats what i heard. God maybe i heard it from this video can't remember, it has been 3 years since i watched it. :)
@Jurassic Monkey I saw some similarity of signs in göbekli tepe with aborigins in australia
@Jurassic Monkey oh I don't know which group it is.
anotolia is vast so many civilizations in one area
If they buried gobekli tepe on purpose then i imagine they would take all their tools and pottery out
If you took upon yourself the immense effort required to bury this entire, massive site, would you overlook the details?
That is possible, but the site isn't completely uncovered yet, so can it be stated that their were no tools or pottery?
here's an idea: people built the site. Conditions changed- climate, drought, famine, maybe war, something- and the people who built it were gone. New people moved in and started farming. They found the old stone 'gods' on the hill unnerving. It's like living next to somebody's graveyard. They didn't dare destroy it and risk the wrath of these unknown gods, so they buried it so they wouldn't have to look at it.
Holla...
@Nick Nack but regardless of the construction process they carved stones and built a massive site and lived in that area for that long, with a population big enough to build those structures, and you think they wouldn't have been able to make pottery? Nothing else but stone would survive for 12000 years.
JRE at its prime. Interesting topics from not very well known people who have nothing but facts and very colorful opinions about things that actually matter
The manner to which they all spoke and were able to listen and politely disagree with each other was so refreshing to see!
I very much like Graham, but I can’t help but notice his malice towards sherbet, whilst shermer does not show that same feeling. I think Graham had gotten a little too worked up in certain moments but I guess when you are THAT passionate, it would make sense for someone to want to defend the subject so vigorously.
I think these people are very well known in they respective expertise...Michael Shermer is very popular amongst people who are into science. Ect.
Michael shermer is a very popular atheist speaker
Graham is a slimy grifter..
Hey Graham...I'm 82 and a grandma and l started reading the Emmanuel Velikofksy books when I was 15. People laugh, but what's so fearful to skeptics about thinking outside the box? It's the "outside the box thinkers people" who have moved civilization forward while the skeptics have worked hard to stone, behead, imprison and burn at the stake the people who have looked at the ocean and said what's over there or looked at the heavens and said those specks of light are trillions of galaxies. I was a Physiotherapist for 43 years of my life and just getting people to think about new techniques was painful. To my way of thinking skeptics are bull headed because they lack imagination. The gentleman skeptic on this Joe Rogan program has the same hardened flat affect look on his face as 30 years or so ago. Keep searching Graham even if we never learn who carved and moved the Easter Island wonders or raised megalithic stones to the tops of mountains!!! ❤
in the allegedly scientific world, dogma can be akin to their Religion. Those who seek to look beyond the Dogma are castigated, until proven wrong. In this current age of the ever important Scientific grant, few are willing to step outside the box/dogma. Thus, they literally are ascientific. I coined the word. YT can sue me.
This Guy: "Why is there no tools or trash at this obviously sacred place?"
Me: I've been to a bunch of churches and have never seen the tools used to build them still laying about or left my trash behind inside them.
Hancock: I assume you have been to these places.
This guy: No I haven't.
Hancock: Oh dear.
Tf? There would still be things there that would prove how its built
@@theproprod211 what things do you mean?
@@theproprod211 That's a silly way of thinking. I live in a house that has literally NOTHING in or around it that tells people "how" it was built. I know how it was built, but there isn't anything to indicate that just kicking around waiting to be found by people. Generally speaking you don't leave all your shit laying around when you build stuff, because that would be both weird and wasteful. The tools and implements needed to build anything sufficiently advanced are themselves also advanced, and as such would be coveted by those who used them, not merely discarded and left to rot.
I'm an archaeologist and the sceptic guy isn't talking out of his ass, you usually find a lot of tools burried at archaeological sites, especially big ones
I love these debates. America needs more of this.
America needs less of this, and an education in logical argumentation. This is retarded.
Cyance lol what exactly do you consider to be “logical” this is peer review in action.
i don’t mean to be rude, but this may be what he’s saying; people aren’t exposed to fair debate and critical thinking-‘real’ knowledge is given to you in school and that’s it.
it’s a stunted way of thinking to only consider total factual stuff limiting yourself and the convo. it almost stopped at the point they realized he dug his heels in almost for the sake of being a skeptic.
i agree with you however in that this wasn’t that great especially the full version watch the clip or full one with SCHOCH and rogan. good luck and have a nice day.
hell yeah
Nick Nack i said in action. he’s a phd working out a scenario, a theory of course it’s not factual or guaranteed, a lot of science isn’t. it is however, important we DISCUSS things and not LIMIT ourselves.
@Nick Nack searches for entirely new ways of understanding and exporing unknown topics is helped by outside the box thinking. Just limiting any possible assumption to those already existing until you have overwhelming evidence otherwise is going to limit your potential for learning. Plenty of historians, archeologists included, get stuck trying to make any new evidence fit into existing concepts and theories and limit their ability to expand universal knowledge by staying within those limiting mental parameters. Guys like Einstein were famous for thought experiments that created new ideas and then seeking evidence to support them, rather than just looking at existing facts and analyzing g them from the standard viewpoint. My general point is it doesn't even matter if Graham is right or wrong, his proposals and ideas are worthwhile in the general pursuit of universal knowledge. Failed scientific theories still advance knowledge, and can often inspire new ways of thinking about other problems.
The key is underwater archeology. The shoreline for most of humanity used to be100 meters lower due to the ice age.
You‘ve got a point. Also maybe there is stuff buried in the Saharan Desert. Also the Nile and Tigris/Euphrat changed a lot during the millennia.
Ok Sir
Good point
I agree. 👍👍
Yup
Shermer: "We can't find pieces of broken pottery or discarded tools, so there is nothing to see here".
Hancock: "Did you happen to notice the monumental megalithic construction, by any chance ?"
You missed the point. The great pyramid is so large, it doesn't get deposited in earth layers that are buried. Pottery would. The point is the age.
That's it in a nutshell OP
@@Prometheus4096 What if they didn't make pottery? What if they carved wooden bowls or had naturally occurring vessels? Also, didn't they say it was purposefully buried, implying the people left, and, on top of that, that they've uncovered only ~2% of the structures?
The lack of pottery at this stage isn't ruling anything out, imo.
@@youtubeisassho8834 No.
@@Prometheus4096 Look up pre-potterry Neolithic period which this falls under. It's basically stone age, which destroys that entire pottery argument.
Dang, Randall just popped out of nowhere like, “Y’all thought I was gonna miss this?”
I know I was like 🤩🤩
Yo really tho I almost thought the video switched
@@jhank0cean exactly that I thought too lol
The underlining of anger n spite between them two is real
Hunter gatherers have to move about so that they do not over hunt an area and run out of food.
They do not hunt one area long enough to carve 20ft long slabs out of stone, then carve faces and animals out of the stone in 3D, then move that stone and place it in a fashion that points to magnetic polar earth positions or astrological positions in the sky.
Aboriginals were hunter gatherers when the English came here to Australia.
They do not have megalithic sites.
They did not do carvings into or out of stone.
There are no pyramids in Australia.
There are no astrological cave paintings.
Nothing indicating knowledge of north or other compass direction.
Nothing indicating knowledge of earths circumferance or longtitude/latitude position.
Exactly
They do if they return annualy with the seasons.
Not to mention that hunter gatherers would not have had time to both Hunt and build this shit all at the same time. Someone clearly had to be feeding the laborers that were building this place. There is no way that they would be able to hunt and gather enough food to feed a workforce of this size. That’s not really how it works. When you hunt and gather you are mainly hunting and gathering to support you and your family for the next day or two. You’re not going to be able to kill and or gather and or prepare enough to feed more than that at a time on a daily basis. This means they must of had a surplus of food which means they had agriculture.
You're actually wrong about Aboriginals, they were excellent and I mean excellent trackers and part of the reason was because they had a very good knowledge of what was North, South, East and West.
There's actually an Aboriginal language that doesn't have the words 'left' or 'right' in it instead they use West and East, your 'west' hand and your 'east' hand, and it would chance depending on whether your hand really was facing East or West and it's thought their language developed this way just so they would have such a good knowledge of direction and again is part of what made them some of the best trackers in the world.
How do we know they were such good trackers? Englishmen would use them to track escaped Aboriginals and they were very impressed by them.
Its a mistake to compare Australian aboriginals to other hunter gatherer societies. The Egyptians of the old kingdom were capable of far greater things than other societies of the same time for example. It is also a mistake to assume that a hunter gatherer society cannot produce a sustainable food surplus. it's possible that these primitives had methods of gathering food that far surpassed societies of the time, just like old kingdom construction engineering was peerless in their era. Further study is needed or you're just making assumptions.
One of my personal theories about ancient civilizations is the reformability of metal. I suspect that people all throughout history would find metal from some older civilization and melt it down and reuse it because it is easier to reform an old metal tool than it is to excavate new metal. Clay pottery as well can be reused, just smash the pots to dust and let them sit in water for a few months and you have fresh clay. Even if it took a couple years, it would still be a huge source of reusable clay to have a pit somewhere soaking old clay objects. Also, things like wood and leather, they can be taken to make new things, and wood can always be burned. So I think that they could have easily had all these things, but in the eons since many people have come in and picked apart the reusable materials until there is nothing left.
Incredible point, as weird as it may sound primitive technology on youtube(the channel) always talks about reusing old pottery to either reinforce bad clay or as a way to just have more potting clay and credits many many ancient techniques from all over the world and it wouldn't be a stretch to say the same for another reusable material that's difficult to find
That's a good point, and we know that has certainly happened to some extent over the ages. One example that comes to mind: there used to be a lot of iron on the Coliseum in Rome, but it was stripped off and made into weapons during times when Rome was under siege, and they never bothered to put it back on again. Throughout most of known history, the norm has been to repair something rather than throw it away. Only now have our manufacturing processes gotten efficient enough that it makes sense to create something new rather than repair something old.
Wow. Yah that’s a great point I didn’t even think of. U could be on to something there!
They did it with building sites, why not building materials. People repurposed the sears catalog in out houses.
What's impressive is joe can insert himself into conversations and be as just as believable as experts
Con-man
it’s called Intellectual fraud!!!! you idiot
@@realsamhyde triggered man.
Because these guys are not experts, they are writers
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 hey stupid fuck. did you know NOT one of these experts has ever been on any sites , they got their degrees by reading a book. graham physically and went scuba diving in deep oceans. he can verify what others wrote about. tell me who the fuck the expert , you uneducated moron.
If it was deliberately buried wouldnt it make sense they took their stuff with them and didn’t bury those
What's the matter with you using common sense like that? Don't you know the world revolves around scientists they should have been honored to leave behind their precious tools for scientists 10,000 year later.
"Deliberately buried" doesn't mean it was the people who built it who buried it... It really creates more questions then answers unfortunately...
I thought this too. If it was meant to be hidden, proof of inhabitants would be taken too.
@@dudelikeseriously8418 Who says it was meant to be hidden? Like the guy above you says we don’t know who buried it. It could’ve been another people who came long after the creators. Could be beefing tribes, tribes who didn’t worship those gods who couldn’t destroy it because of how large and advanced it was tried to bury it... Also as someone who uses tools everyday I’m very meticulous about cleaning up & making sure all my tools are accounted for, and my tools are no where near as valuable as theirs. I can go to any Home Depot to grab drills or tons of wrenches, they were building their own tools which took time and more precious. Why would they leave them behind unless they died with them which is usually how ancient tools are found.
Stop! No making sense, shut up you!
Joe rogan “so we agree they are human”.
LOL!!!
I am still holding on to the theory that the whales built Stonehenge
@@marksmith4346 *mind blown*
Bruh🤣🤣🤣
@@marksmith4346 i think the biker mice could have built it.
I've seen this episode in full a few times and always catch myself on the clips. Every episode with Randal and Graham is worth watching. I would and do recommend it.
I miss when JRE was on TH-cam! Those were the golden years!!
While Michael Schermer raises some decent points, his general closed-mindedness on this topic amazes me, especially when he says a cave painting is more impressive/challenging than the largest megalithic structure known to mankind today.
@Nick Nack the organization of the workforce, education system and the technology to feed and house large number of workers on site transport materials knowledge of astrology ect, ect... To build this, is ridiculous to compare with cave drawings with a sloppy 3d effect.
@Nick Nack sloppy sketchy drawing, I would be ashemed of trying to make the point he tried to make. He got mocked, for good reason.
@Nick Nack I don't know about Hancock or his ancient high civilisation claims.
But what I know is the comparison between the skills and cognitive abilities needed to fingerpaint an animal on the wall of a cave (very sloppily) and the skills and knowledge required to train, feed, house thousands of workers to build an enormous temple, moving 30 foot rocks in the process, is laughable.
@Nick Nack I saw the video of the site where they show what they have excavated up to now, and how it's only 5% of all the site. The enormous sculpted columns, with engraved 3d depictions of their 10 Gods. This was a bit more complex and sofisticated than what hunter gatherers were known to be able to do to say the least. And far more impressive than the lascaux drawings, and I'm French and I have visited the lascaux caves.
@Nick Nack I have a feeling, like the other guy in the video, that you have no understanding of how collosal construction work is done and what is needed in terms of organisation to pull it off.
I also have a feeling that you are not genuine, and you have an agenda.
It boggles the mind to see someone argue that a 3d carving of a feline on a 30 foot man made column for example, is at the same level of complexity than the lascaux drawings. It's beyond ridiculous. It's like comparing the iPhone with Morse code transmitters.
And then you try to save face by going with "it's artistically on the same level". Well that my friend is subjective, and is not the topic of the matter.
You just have no arguments, and you try to make an impossible case to try to refute or dismiss massive new evidence that doesn't fit your agenda (it seems).
I grew up in PNG - when I was about 8 I cut my forearm falling on a rock. My Papuan friend ripped the skin of a citrus 🍊 fruit. Thumbnail sliced it into quarters. After the first 1/2 hour the first piece socked up all the wound fluid. The second was strapped using the spine of a fern like plant. The skin dried shrank and squeezed the wound without stitches also insects stay away from citric acid. Very smart and I respected my learning in another culture as a boy in the 60’s.
Interesting story. But I have to ask.. wound fluid? Do you mean pus? LOL
You're absolutely right about the fern. It was probably an actual fern or a relative of the fern. You can take a fern and leave the spine as you call it on and just remove the leaves. When you get done it will look like a skeleton. You can take a thick Leaf like an oak leaf or a hickory or a beach and bandage it over top of the cut and somehow someway, the spine of the fern will draw up the skin and close it together and hardly leaves the scar. It's never been done to me but I've seen it done. Interesting story dude
I'm pretty sure people cook up & eat young ferns too.
@@ClickClack_Bam I love fawns.
Best piece of steak you will ever put in your mouth comes from a deer that's less than 6 months old. Yum yum yum
Next time you cut yourself, put the thin membrane between the layers of an onion on it before your bandage. It will heal in lightning speed. I had a Peruvian prep cook show me that years ago. Primitive medicine is incredibly effective
When Hancock let's fly the f-bomb, you know he's real frustrated.
@Stan Armenyan the guy was being an asshole on purpose. No one likes THAT guy
@Stan Armenyan only an idiot would believe he lost the argument. I bet you believe property tax is a benevolent process. The type to kill if told by the "law". Since you are stupid I'm insulting you.
@@Runescape99 being against authority doesn't make you right.
@@gretzkey66 according to history it does. But that requires thought and this is TH-cam go back to feeling safe.
@@Runescape99 What? You're so black and white its not even funny.
This is one of the main reasons I love JRE. He has skeptics on so they don’t create an echo chamber
The skeptic in this vid could not have been much worse about trying to argue against the main points of lost civilization though. He honestly strengthens what he's trying to argue against more than anything else.
@@cooper2850that’s the point…
Shermer is a fucking joke. He's a sceptic for the sake of skepticism.
He’s not following the scientific method though…
There are "advanced civilizations" living on the same planet as "hunter gatherers" today. It is a fact. Why is it so hard to believe it hasn't been so for a very very long time. Thank you Joe Rogan for sharing your experiences.
I agree
... Because the advanced civilization you speak of has advanced and evolved throughout the ages, and it has been historically documented. To suggest their was a civilization that is comparably advanced just “in different ways” is absurd. Its a claim that would fundamentally rewrite human history, and he offers zero evidence to back it up other than the existence of a few Megaliths.
Because there would be some physical evidence of said “advanced civilization”. Such a large and advanced group of people living on the earth for a “very very long time” would have left something behind. For fucks sake we can find dinosaur skeletons from 65 million years ago. And for some weird reason we can’t find any evidence of some advanced human civilization from 12,000 years ago? That apparently was super advanced and adept at all social organization and society. Give me a fucking break
Perhaps all traces are gone because it's submerged under water. Remember, the coast was further out to sea on all the continents. Look at Google maps, the lighter shade of the sea off the coasts would be above sea level. The amount of land lost was equivalent to Asia and Europe combined. 85% of the world's population live on the coast. The flood, including the massive change in climate would've stifled agriculture, displaced survivors, and great cities and ports of trade would be submerged overnight. Also what if the civilization that thrived understood the balance of nature, and that their form of a funeral was to bury the body completely naturally so that the energy could be returned to nature. Obviously they were organized and advanced enough to build all of the ancient sites we see today, they probably had a much more structured society and sound culture that allowed them to flourish. The survivors would be people living in the woods, or small villages, less educated, more isolated, and now trying to figure out to survive. Humanity took a huge 2 steps back.
Guy Wilcox that’s a perfect point u got there.
If Mr Hancock would’ve said, “you argue with everything I say,” the other guy would’ve said, “I do not.”
not really. he agreed with him on like half the things he said
Hes a professional skeptic so even though i side w Grahms ideas i dont fault the guy for questioning and arguing everything its literally his job
He's there to argue.
Pseudohistory, claiming that an advanced civilisation would've consciously chosen not to use metal tools - that's just illogical. But Hancock makes money off of these theories
Hancock is a fantasy writer who people believe because he uses little bits of separate evidences to create new theories
Hancock: "There's 50x as much as what's on the surface still buried."
Me: Get the damn shovel!!!
Seriously, why waste time arguing? Just go fucking dig it up already
just heard that . holy shit . dig baby dig ..
I got a back hoe. Some assembly required but if they can build it we can dig it.
😄
and later it gets smaller on conversation 🤔 😁 personal attacking on Michael makes Graham's arguments harder to believe and "selective evidence".
I have no clue how I’ve missed this podcast for so long. I’ve been glued since. Thank you for bringing the coolest topics ever. As a closet history fanatic this debate is amazing. Well done, very well done. New fan here 💪🏾👍🏾💪🏾👍🏾
Graham has also debated another fella more recently on JRE as well just in case you haven't seen. Also I'd recommend watching the graham/randall episode as well!
And after that, Michael and Graham went into the cage and Joe narrated the fight. Randall was the referee. Graham won by submission, Michael went to sleep from a choke, he couldn't even tap out in time.
😂😂😂
@@aniketrodrigues2394 he worked camera and sound for the fight obviously lol
No, that was this fight. Lmao
The world needs for open talk like this and less controlled speech from investors. Thanks Joe.
One of the best podcasts of all times
Yep
If Shermer is correct, we are to believe that a group of hunter/gatherers stopped roaming while looking for food, and built one of the most impressive stone structures ever constructed. The length of the project and the number of people it would have taken to build such a structure would have required them to settle in one place. This would require them to farm and build dwellings to remain at the site and build the structure. I also don’t think that hunter/gatherer groups traveled in enormous groups of people. It is obvious that if primitive people built this with primitive tools it would have required lots of people to do it. For me, all points to advanced civilization.
Doesn't mean all the hunter-gatherers had to stop hunting and gathering, just that they supported some sort of artist caste who worked on the site day in day out, and ate what was given to them.
But there is no evidence for an advanced civilization. That is the main problem with Hancock. He has no evidences whatsoever for his theories.
@@DonRicoKing I think that's the point. We can't find the evidence that archeologists want, except for the structures themselves. No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did. It opens up a whole load of questions that may contradict the establishment of archeology who have made their livelihoods on previous schools of thoughts, which is what we are all taught growing up.
Sometimes the lack of evidence is all the evidence one may need
@@dp3699 "We can't find the evidence that archeologists want" that is what annoys me. You re suggesting that there is a mafia consisting of Archeologists. But that is not true at all. Archeologists are always extremely thrilled, then somebody makes a new discovery.
@@dp3699 "No one can explain how it was done, which in a sense is enough evidence to question the "mainstream" theories. GT is a new discovery which massively questions previous assumption/schools of thought. There is literally no hard evidence to suggest the ancient Egyptians built the great pyramids, yet everyone has been told therefore thinks they did." That is not right at all. There are mathematical and chemical methods to calculate when the building of the pyrmaids startet and ended. How they were build is a different story. It is true, nowadays there is no final theory on how they were build. There are different theories based on experiments and findings at the pyramids. There are also scientific scrolls. But with time the picture is getting clearer. For example some scientist found, that there was a now dried out waterway, which they use to transport the stones to the building site.
Love how blue shirt man appears for the first time 18 minutes in with no explanation lmao
Noah Headley That’s big Santa Randall Carlson-genius of a guy. Interesting his input into the debate pretty much crushed schermer so Schermer pretty much ignored it😂
back when joe and jamie got way too high before recording and editing haha
I didn't even know he was there until he said something🤣
@@gypsydoratarot8441 , no he’s not. The blue-shirt guy is Randall Carlson.
There should be more conversations like this. The debate back and forth is great.
It's Hancock and Rogan arguing a conspiracy, and shooting down any other ideas 💡
❤😊 8:57
@@garry_thomasalways people like you who slap “conspiracy” onto something to discredit it instead of being open minded to both sides. Anatomically modern humans have been around for nearly 200,000 years, it wouldn’t be a stretch to theorize that there have been “advanced” civilizations before that have been lost to time.
@@PublicRestroom88show me the proof and I'll believe you. Until then, it's just wild speculation.
I love how Joe every now and than has to have verbal reassurance that they are still talking about humans and not aliens constructing the temple lol
Yes, and what evidence do we have that they were/are humans?
@@johnoffenberg6487 more than any evidence we have that they weren't
That's for 90% of Graham's audience who thinks it was aliens.
@@Bixnoodle well, except for the longest time we didnt believe hunter gatherers could make a 20 acre structure then bury it. similar to the pyramids
This made me chuckle.
Your dad and his weird friends talking in the living room while you fall asleep on the couch
Hancock with an "F BOMB" out of know where 10/10
someone that swears like that in a debate weakens their argument , it shows frustration . Having said that , main stream history , science and evolution is all lies .
@Alexander Supertramp To line my pockets from gullible idiots that think it works!
Not a word from him about the Bosnian pyramids.
They are being excavated and studied by scientists now the same as with Gobleki Tepi.
Both sites studied at the same time.
Now.
@@Adam-7_7_7 fuck off
Adz F P holy shit are you really that ignorant you think evolution is a lie? that’s kinda pathetic and lazy do some research
We have civilizations today that still live like hunter gatherers. Why couldnt there be different peoples at different levels of development in the past?
Ignore the comments, I know what u mean,. Totally Agree
In 1950's, men were the professional, made the money, to support family.
Women got married, stayed home and had babies....except one that went to Harvard, then Cornell Law, and then to be Supreme court Justice.
There are always outliers.
@Nick Nack Technically there are "civilization" living today with Hunter gather culture. Civilization is just a way to describe man made environment, there are plenty of Amazon tribes and island locked civilization that don't have modern cultures.
Great point. If one were to only find proof of European civilization dating back to the Medieval period, alien archaeologists would assume humanity was an awful lot stupider than they would if they were to discover an Arabian or Asian civilization dating to that time lol
@Nick Nack nitpicking. I get that.
@ " In this broad sense, a civilization contrasts with non-centralized tribal societies, including the cultures of nomadic pastoralists, Neolithic societies or hunter-gatherers, but sometimes it also contrasts with the cultures found within civilizations themselves. "
I just want to take a moment and say that Joe is a great mediator, i love this debate and conversation. this, we need more of this.
A good mediator isn't biased. Joe was 100% on Grahams side
@@ramdroid87 lol ok
I have to respectfully disagree sir. it got kind of silly when he started adding his two cents and I LOVE Joe. A great mediator controls the flow and pace of the debate to the best of their ability and the most important aspect, let the experts or guests do the debating.
This would've been a better debate with an actual archeologist instead of a professional sceptic. Graham loves to jump to conclusions with a single piece of information that doesn't fit the accepted model but that piece of information doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is a mountain of evidence of concerning humanity's development before, during and after Gobekli Tepe. All that doesn't just disappear and you get to invent a superior civilization with minimal information.
Yes, Graham is a smart guy with quite original ideas. He's just so invested into his big ancient civilization hypothesis, that he keeps drawing these insane lines all over the place, so it feels like hes often pushing the envelope.
My big issue with him is that he keeps playing the victim and talks about how he's under attack from the "archeology establishment" while refusing to even discuss/debate them, thats a red flag to me...
Your literally watching him debate in this video.
It’s not that Graham pushes it, he just can’t believe the fact scholars alter their theories to cover their errors in their research and still reject his ideas. They truly don’t know either. He said to Graham “we thought hunter and gatherers were not as capable”. The man is still not answering his question, “so they were an advanced civilization?”. Same brain, same skeleton, modern Homo sapiens. You just can’t research further because there were no tools, clothes, pots.., if it’s buried , on purpose or not, as humans we NEED to find out what’s there for our understanding of our own lives.
Knowing if these civilizations exist would mark our imprint EVEN MORE SO as a living creatures in this vast universe. We must know our past history. Not a red flag, it’s a green flag to push to fucking find out what is there and how long we’ve been this smart for.
Im not arguing on behalf of Shermer, he's not an archeologist, just a guy who plays devils advocate on Hancocks behalf.
Truly brilliant debate. Joe was excellent at keeping things going fairly and impartially.
Felt differently, thought joe was alot on Hancocks side. In fairness the Shermer he raises alot of questions that Hancock had no answer for
@@ConScanlon I agree. Hancock's attempt to explain away the lack of tools and writing at the site was weak. 'They just decided not to use tools' is not particularly compelling and is the opposite of what an advanced civilisation would do. If I had knowledge and capability to make a job orders of magnitude easier then I would use it.
@@markbodle6339 i mean, the city was burried, right? why should there be tools, clothing or anything if it deliberately was burried as stated by the head archeoligist?
But i agree: Graham really had a weird undertone that was very aggressive. I usually like him a lot but here he just seem to be offended.
Love this type of debate, million times more enjoyable and informative than toxic Twitter
@@TwoBaze lol he was coming after his book
‘Maybe sometimes your skin is so thick, you can’t sense anything around you’ hahaha
buuurn 💀
I lol'd at that
It's clear that there skin is that thick!
savage
Yup 😆
I'm so confused by Michael's argument or main point, it literally just sounds like he's just stirring shitpot of mainstream archaeology. It must be so frustrating to have a productive conversation in that field man 🙄
I thought that myself but after rewatching it for the 700th time I think he just wants some physical evidence, which actually makes sense. Although I’m with graham on this.
@@tadhgkeaveney4507 He wants trash and tools.. when the site hasn't even been near fully excavated. I don't lean to either side of their arguments, but that's pretty nonsensical.
@@BaldHeadedManc isn’t nonsensical at all, he wants hard evidence which at some point he will get, as I said I’m with graham on this
@@tadhgkeaveney4507check out uncharted X.
The proof is all over
We just need to look at it properly with proper context.
Eg. 1100 ton blocks and crazy math encoded in pyramids.
There are other sites attributed to later dates than gobekli tepe that look like it.
90% of the conversations in this field are dudes fangirling over literally anything
any random girl could ask "so what are you guys doing?"
And theyd have to sit trough an hour long explenation of some historical niche before another joins in with their own knowledge of the subject
Thats not even a joke, a co worker was successfully flirting with a girl right up until she asked him that question and we didnt even notive her leave
You hear any history relating topic and some historian just jumps up and joins the convo
@ 8:25 That was so savagely smooth 👏👏👏 Graham is an intellectual beast.
I literally, laughed out loud🤣
It was hilarious when Randall started to speak. I had no idea he was even there.
Haha true
18 minutes in a new challenger suddenly emerges
boss tacos
Hancock has Carlson as his wingman, in the flesh whereas Shermer has to phone a friend via FaceTime who is then also a dumbass.
Bro I got scared when that guy jumped in to convo. Did he just from bathroom or wha
@@yavuzkeles320 He actually was not there. But then a Mandela effect kicked in...
Not challenger, rogan, Hancock and the blue shirt are all on the same side against that dumb Shermer betamale
Grey Troll lmao
This is prime JRE. His legendary casts with Hancock, Carlson and Trussell will never be recaptured.
Let us not forget Jones and Barvo
@@Jet_Rod_94 lol
Hancock is mostly a money man..He seems to have started out as a more genuine archeologist type, but flew into the americanized world of trendism. They create and analyze trends and then comes the DVDs.... Dollars. This is why we see that blend of postmodernism or a kind of neo-theosophy with more genuine interest in the ancient past. This is very bad because one ruins a whole subject this way.
@@KibyNykraft 🤦🤦🤦
Still hit after few year. I love that kind of talks , thank you so much 👏🏽
Graham is unbelievably articulate with his words. Immediately grasps your attention
Yeah he's got an accent, I guess
Most authors are good with words
yahhh a true con man
@@nachomagallanico The most effective con men and women have careers in advertising, public relations, television broadcasting and hold high office in government. Graham Hancock is an amateur in comparison.
@@joecaner a real con man that sells books, lots of books, making millions giving the fake image of a Maverick, while he’s just spreading lies and speculation. He has the real profile of a con man. In addition he really seems intellectually dishonest, of this I’m not sure, but he seems to be erudite enough to realise that his hypothesis lacks completely of substance, hence he plays the victim and discredits a whole field of research… so feeling egocentric. And then you listen to his fans defending him like the leader of a cult… cause he reveals the truth hidden by the établissement. Real con man….so full of shit
If it is thought that much more of the construction is buried much deeper under the ground , then the tools are likely to be found deep down the floor area. The argument of not finding any tools should be invalidated because no one, even builders twelve thousand years ago wouldn't store tools around the top floor of any building.
My guess is that there must be another significant area chock full of tools and equipment (I see no reason as why they'd destroy the tools, maybe only conceal them, possibly in another hill/cave)
th-cam.com/video/jKQvBOhSm6s/w-d-xo.html here’s the truth how people build stuff in the past
So true. They need to excavate the entire structure.
Dig deeper and find the tools then. His point was that tools haven't been found YET, so don't ASSUME they will be found somewhere else. Literally the only evidence is there are big rocks in place, which we know primitive people are able to do, so why is it necessary that an advanced civilization lived there?
The argument of not finding tools is ridiculous, if they left the area they took the tools! or the tools were destroyed through centuries.
I'm not entirely done the video, but do they keep jumping around the fact that Gobekli Tepe is on an entirely different scale than anything chronologically close to it? If Gobekli Tepe was really built by advanced hunter-gatherers, then how come they, or other hunter-gatherers, fail to produce anything remotely like it for thousands of years? This can mean two things, either we need to do a lot more digging for structures around this time period, or there was a certain point of great advancement in our history, then they vanished and humanity slowly advanced from the ground up until where we are now.
That’s why Graham says “ we are a civilization with amnesia”
Randal Carlson said that there was probably a massive climate catastrophe around thar time as well. So my guess is that wiped out any evidence of the trash Shermer loves so much
But do you notice how Michael Schermer is more impressed with the paintings. He is ignoring the advanced skill it would take to build structures like that in that time period! If he admits it's impressive it no longer supports the narrative that ancient people were dim witted.
Because the lost civilisation was the first people who taught the hunter gatherers their skills. Suppose for a minute Atlantis was the civilisation that was lost, the survivors making their way amongst hunter gatherers in order to survive. As those survivors die off and the knowledge and teachings of the technology they had to cut stone generation to generation gets weaker we gradually lose a lost part of our history with knowledge that is also lost. Imagine someone out of nowhere one time taught you how to build a bike and put it all together. If you passed the knowledge down to your children and them to theirs and so on gradually the skill and knowledge that this first person had would be forgotten entirely. The real mystery is who were these people who taught the hunter gatherers to do this and what other knowledge did they have that was wiped out of existence? like Graham said, we really are a species with amnesia.
@@dnkys so we don't have the knowledge we use to have? that's scary to think we can just lose knowledge in a blink of an eye.
wow... a solid 18 minutes and 17 seconds of silence from this man. Respect.
Dude keeps on asking what they mean by "advanced" and they keep saying the construction was big, and intricately carved, but no one seems to drive home the addtional idea of the complex math involved
And how did they carve that stone in bas relief? That is by any measure Advanced Work.
I wouldn't say that complex math is required. I've been in construction for 20 years and a relatively dumb guy with experience can build well and simple things like straight lines and plumb walls are easy to do. It's possible to create this place with moderate knowledge only a few generations after first attempting rock carving and building with stone. It's clearly more special than just a house of stone, so those people had this knowledge for some time.
@@marthamryglod291 They aligned it with the rotation of stars
@@ManassaLaCoa oh yeah I forgot to consider that.
@@marthamryglod291 building it is easy but architectural planning seems to require advanced concepts
The reason Randal Carlson is silent for the majority of the podcast is because he knows more than the other three combined.
You're absolutely right about that.
He speaks only when absolutely necessary, no more.
He is in fact Gandalf XD
Sir, you must be smoking crack. Randal didn’t put forward anything of interest or anything to spark an intelligent thought. I’m sure he’s a clever guy, but he only said things which go without saying or was of no use to the discussion. Watch his segment again, he’s trying to sound clever with technical jargon rather than be real and straight to the point like Hancock.
@@axelwengrud6790 or maybe Leonardo reincarnated.
The dude in the blue showed up like he beamed into the starship enterprise...
I wanted to thumb up this comment but it s at 100! N that just hits harder💯
From what I understand, all gobekli teppe proves is that somehow humans figured out how to make a giant structure. This only shows that they were architecturally more developed than we thought. There are two possibilities here, either they figured it out in their own or someone taught them. On graham’s argument on why couldn’t this technology have been passed on by an advanced civilization to these hunter gatherers? Well that theory needs some evidence to gain support. Evidence like drawings or sculptures dedicated to this knowledge transfer. Or some proof of ancient technology which was advanced. Of which there is none. You can’t very well disprove ghosts but in order to believe in ghosts you need strong proof of ghostly activity. Similarly to claim that an advanced civilization existed, you need strong proof for this “advancement”.
Also, graham hancock is deliberately vague on his definition of advanced. What exactly makes them advanced? What is the criteria for this advancement? If you can’t define that then how do you know what kind of evidence to look for?
Where's the evidence that shows a linear evolutionary trajectory of the technological advances made by hunter-gatherer bands in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of Turkey?
Shermer is obviously a very intelligent guy, I think his disconnect is that he either doesn't care about astronomy or see it as important. The fact that there are astrological implications on the stone pillars shows that these people who built it weren't just "hunter gatherers". Science is perfectly fine saying we found it, who cares why, move on. Others question why. Interesting conversation for sure.
He was arguing that the astronomical indications are pattern finding, it's just a coincidence.
Most former theists just exchange their devotion from one thing to another.
So, Shermer is dogmatically skeptical, if only because you cannot logic yourself your way out of your own life experience.
When you are born with low IQ, you stay with low IQ, no matter how much you learn throughout your life--after all, IQ tests do not measure knowledge.
@@hardcorefreshify the problem is ,not just Gobekli Tepe, a lot of Ancient sites around the world have obvious astronomical alignments that mainstream guys such as him self refuse to acknowledge and say it’s just a coincidence
@@hardcorefreshify True north isn’t something that accidentally happens. Plus it’s said to be a temple, a sacred place. So wouldn’t it make sense that a sacred place, that is perfectly aligned isn’t just coincidence. If it was a house, sure, you could set it up anywhere. But it’s a giant structure so it shows intent that people put lots of resources into it.
Astronomy != Astrology
One is a legitimate science and the other is woo.
I think it’s entirely possible that advanced civilizations rose & fell throughout the eons that we have no proof of.
Definitely. But we do have proof all over this planet, the Sphinx, Gobekli, all the citys and stone works along the coastlines under water off of many countries. Etc.....
Sandman Austin True but I mean even earlier then those civilizations.
@@RenR70 I agree 100% pretty much proven beyond a doubt that the Sphinx is 12,000 years old minimal. The early dynastic Egyptians said in their writings that they where a legacy of a early civilization ( zepteppy) . The plausibility of Atlantis. So if we have been around for 200,000 to 300,000 years as modern homo sapiens how many times have we climb to a advanced (more or less then today) civilization and wiped out by, comet/ meteor, plague, nuclear/weapons of mass destruction , etc.... and started over again.
Not much is going to last for 20, 30, 40 100 Thousand years except stone.
Sandman Austin True, every time we think we found the oldest civilization we find something older & will continue to do so.
We came from Mars. Fact!
I’m leaning towards believing hancock on this one because in order for them to have built something like that, they would’ve needed a large society with an established hierarchy which seems to indicate it was an intelligent culture
Rather than a hunter gatherer tribe, perhaps even a confederation of tribes?
@@thehauntedstream7206 confederation is likely. We’ll never know the names of the hero’s of that age. Our ancestors and relatives
@@thehauntedstream7206 a confederation of tribes can be a civilization
@@ap6480 Absolutely my friend
@ 0:30 "perhaps a decision was made not to use metal..."
Sorry, I couldn't stop laughing at Graham from that point.
At the very end when Shermer states that cave paintings are equally impressive to mega monolithic sites, is absurd. It highlights the exact struggle that Graham had been claiming existed this entire episode but that Shermer was denying existed. "Mainstream" science doesn't want to do science things, such as asking question to push their own boundaries and assumptions.
I'm here 6 years later, its great that Graham and Randall have a huge following where they can highlight some of these insane mysteries that others seemingly were quick to gloss over.
If you look at NYC and Afghanistan, you’d wouldn’t think they’d be in the same world, let alone the same year in 2021. Whatever was there 12,000 years ago, lived like that and given the environment and the way the world has changed it has preserved everything the way it is. Certain parts of the world lived what seemed like different time frames. Not sure if that makes sense
Same argument by me too. We assume that people were at same level of progess all over the world 12000 yrs ago. This should be debated.
@@kshelley121 You don’t even need to think about Afghanistan. There are currently many tribes in South America, Africa, Indian Ocean etc. who live way more primitively than the peoples of Göbekli Tepe.
@@ELVIS1975T Yes. Hopefully archaeologists will one day acknowledge that a very advanced civilization existed centuries ago
I super miss this Joe. I remember watching this after work years ago while cooking dinner and then waiting to finish watching it before eating. I still remember that night. Now I often find its a lot of anger from either Joe or guests or something way too focuses on a minute detail of society (i.e. so called culture wars).
Joe keeps mentioning how "we know it was humans" lmao he wants to believe aliens did it so bad
🤣🤣🤣
Haaha
The Göbekli Tepe used recycled biodegradable materials not metals! LOL from the guy who thought read and writing was not advancement! And doesnt understand how science works and doesnt like how science works!🤦♂️🤣
BELIEVE MY BASELESS CLAIMS! HE SAYS! 🤦♂️🤣
LOL
In today’s world we can deny the exist less.
Interesting watching this 6 years later where archeologists uncovered residential communities & businesses stretching across the land finding decorative beads, tools, etc within those 'communities'... I get Michael's thought process because I once was stubborn as well (still am but catching myself). At the end of the day we should never conclude on anything until everyone agrees on the answer. There's so much we don't understand and still uncovering that we won't answer in our lifetime. If anything we are still pioneers
if gobekli teppe is a place of worship, i don't think they'd be dumping their garbage there . . .
Laurence Kim maybe, but you’re saying that through a lens of modern Westerner who inherited Judeo-Christian sentiments. Not all cultures shared the same models of what is sacred or profane. Even today, religions differ.
Well, no, that was Shermer's point. They didn't live there, so where did they live. Wherever they actually lived, they would find trash.
@@greekgodx6560 Yeah, but think about how far away Stonehenge is from wherever they were living. Archaeology may never find whatever dwellingplaces the builders had.
@@conorbaker7684 Did you just assume someone's religious beliefs outright online? Damn lol. How did you know they were religious? And that it was of the western variety? Hey, speaking of which, since you "know a lot", which religious group does put trash on their religious sites??
triknives I didn’t “assume” anything. Laurence is a Western name, and Laurence was using a Western language (namely English), watching a podcost produced in a Western country,so it’s not a stretch of the imagination that they are a Westerner. You don’t have to be religious to think in a Judeo-christian paradigm. Actually, if you read my statement, the point is that you shouldn’t assume anything since we don’t “know it all” (your words, btw, not mine and I never said them). And being that the Aztecs had a goddess named Shit-Eater who absolved the sins of the world by eating their shit before they die, or the Christian gnostic sect which had ritualistic sex, or the institutionalized pedophilia/pederasty of several historical religions, I would say that it’s also not a ruled out possibility that a society that mayhaps existed 12k years ago may have not separated the sacred from the profane the same way that we do.
To me this is when Joe Rogan’s podcast is at its best. You have this guy with some out there ideas that you get to hear out with a standard expert who can fact check some of his propositions in real time. You can hear some new ideas while being grounded in reality.
Peak jre
Michael Shermer isn’t a standard expert he’s just the editor of skeptic magazine. He has no background or qualifications in archeology. It’s more that he cites dogma and other peoples already written theories.
Grahams ideas arent really out there and schemer is a hack and made a fool of himself here and in the longer video imo.
@@stuartphilips5008 "he's not an archaeologist" is an appeal to authority, it's a worthless statement.
Michael's issue with Graham (and shared by others) is his use of the "god of the gaps" and his use of words that he never elaborates on and talks around his choice of words when pressed on it "advanced technology" "high technology" "advanced civilizations" he is an interesting guy but he is also full of a lot of wind, he is very good at talking about what we do know but adding in his little bit of story telling in such a way that people who are not informed will be completely mislead.
@@adversary0932 lol what? Graham continues to posit unverifiable theories while schemer just follows up with there’s no evidence for that OR we have pretty good explanations already.
I'm half way through, and I'm not even sure I understand what they're arguing about.
Hancock says they were 'advanced', Shermer asks him what he means by advanced, Hancock says "well, they created the megaliths at Gobekli Tepe", Shermer says that doesn't mean they were advanced. Rinse and repeat.
caz lab that sums it up lol
I don't get shermers argument. They were able to build this thing 2,000 years before the pyramids with no discernible method to do so. It's not his way of advanced meaning writing and tools and shit.
MrYouarethecancer I think it is more like 7,000 years.
One guy says, "hey hunter gatherers were more capable than we thought." The other says, "There existed an ancient ultra advanced civilization though I have no evidence I know I am correct."
they didnt know how to plant a seed or breed chickens. all animal bones there were wild/undomesticated. civilization requires agriculture
Graham's story about the New Scientist magazine is pretty revealing of how his brain works. He made it sound very ironic and vindicating, but if you listen closely, all that's happened is he saw the cover story that was published and decided in his head that his book "essentially" said the same thing. "Civilization is older and more mysterious than we thought" is a pretty broad/generic idea and it wouldn't even necessarily be remarkable if Graham's critics published the same phrase that Graham had published without realizing it, but just to reiterate, they did not publish the same phrase because Graham never published that phrase, he just retroactively used the phrase to self-describe his book and declared himself a victory. Finally, Graham's book is not "essentially" about civilization being older and more mysterious. The essential message of his book, which is much more specific and is written in the TITLE AND SUBTITLE, is that a higher civilization influenced all other lesser civilizations that came after it.
Hancock is Brilliant.
YOU BET
@@jeffmead2935 we don't bet, we know
Brilliant at ignoring facts instead of following them... he is a good talker, but has no evidence for his ideas, ignores evidence.
Graham mis-represents the field of archeology consistently. He is nothing but a grifter....
@@cjp1599 ...its "grifta" (ie. a swindler ) "grifter" is a shit bike "griftas "sold to an unsuspecting public in the late 1970...get it right mate.Cheers
Why is it so hard to admit there was a civilisation there. Shermer acts like the theory that people settled there is on the same level as aliens or the supernatural.
I find myself in the middle. I think Hancock is getting a little carried away with his theory despite the evidence not being quite there. However, I also feel shurmer is being a little over dismissive at times.
well said
Zir S
I pretty much agree with your assessment
yeah but Hancocks doing a good job of stating he's not the definitive answer where Shumer is kinda like telling him he's not allowed to speculate. And I totally agree that speculation is speculation and you shouldn't do so unless you have hard evidence, but Hancock is just like, "dude I write books. I'm not a scientist. Im just tripping on this shit and wanna share my vibe" Hahaha.
Poorly said. There are literal mountains of evidence showing previous civilizations existed.
Zir S Hey zir. Graham actually made this point before. You have a mainstream which already has ideas from their own work. I’m sure we have all been in a debate on whatever topic it is with someone that sometimes never ends, unless either you or the other person is proven wrong with some type of evidence. It’s the same thing with archeology think about how hard it is to throw ideas and in Grahams case very intelligent ideas at an archeologist with his own views. Not easy and they better be really amazing ideas and very well researched
Love this REAL MEANINGFUL discussion!!! Thank you Joe Rogan🎉🎉🎉
Look into deer stones in Mongolia. Similar carvings
The excavated parts of Gobekli Tepe are the younger portions. The unexcavated parts are older, as shown by the progression of dates. With the discovery of Karahan Tepe & other Tas Tapele sites being proved to be older than the excavated parts of Gobekli Tepe, it's interesting to note that excavations have stopped at Gobekli Tepe. It's almost as if mainstream archaeologists are afraid to continue, for fear of what they may find.
so fucking idiotic. it already proved their sorry asses to be ignorant closed minded asses.
They're afraid to find out that Noah's flood was real. They're devout atheists.
I think you may need to research more. The flood mentioned in the bible is the same flood mentioned in Sumerian writings & further evidenced by the world - wide floods mentioned by other cultures. There is geophysical eveidence of this flood. The story of Noah is quite obviously the story recounted in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which pre - dates the biblical story. Archaeologists aren't devout atheists, just dependent on the mainstream narrative of archaeolgical dating currently upheld by such people as Hawas, who is happily skulking around Egypts most ancient sites, often under cover of darkness, interfering & quite possibly removing any evidence he finds that does not support him & his theories & espoused timeline.
@@mikeoxlong3676
Noahs flood was probably just the end of the ice age melt water 1a and 1b
random: good morning
Shremer: I dont really agree..
I usually say "Grand rising".
And he'd be correct.
@@kendonato1887 lol
Where’s your tools?
random: good morning
Hancock: It was the Atlanteans...
Gobekli Tepe is quite a bit more advanced than the primitive cave paintings of Italy. Hard to imagine a bunch of nomadic hunter-gatherers suddenly learned advanced rock quarrying and sculpting techniques at such an early date. But it seems humanity has had pockets of more high-minded peoples going back 10s if not 100s of thousands of years. I think that wherever the Sumerians suddenly and inexplicably inherited their advanced civilization from, there is probably some link with Gobekli Tepe and other such yet-to-be-discovered sites in that part of the world.
Exactly what I said. Hunter gatherers don’t jjst wake up one day and know how to build the pyramids and GT and things like it. Just doesn’t happen
I agree with you on this, which is why I think it is regarded as a marvel.
@@harveyblevins74 I have a personal theory that certain sites of dense and consistent resources would sometimes bring multiple smaller hunter gatherer populations together, and I think a result of that established regional conglomeration was those multiple cultures coming together to build certain small cultural hubs to share those resources.
I mean from what we assume hunter gathers would fight each other over pockets of land like this, but what if that wasn’t always the case, and some realized that if there was enough to go around everyone could benefit from it?
Over time as the cultures would become more and more homogeneous, the sight would gain greater and greater cultural significance and grow larger, and as it grew larger more and more people would spend time around it leading to people spending time around large amounts of natural resources in turn to possible leading advancements in agriculture as population density would inevitably rise.
I think this site in particular was a early-mid stage of this scenario happening
@@themotions5967 or they were playing a huge war game simulation and they kept there flag there in a game Of capture the flag
Thank you Joe for bringing people that educate us. Bless u my friend!!
we need more of these types of podcasts. so interesting to listen to regardless of which side you believe. involving the public in high level scientific debate is great for everyone.
Maybe it's a great idea for the non scientists, all the time.
I'm not implying that an average citizen shouldn't want to learn about science, in fact thats a huge net positive.
However, when they act like they actually know better than somebody with a relevant education, we have a giant effing problem.
Not everybody that can run a keyboard or even a pen and paper has an opinion worth being heard.
I certainly don't ask my chiropractor to fly an airplane, I defer that task to a pilot.
Competence is competence throughout all life and lifeforms.
@@obtuseangler768 Rogan podcast raises subjects that might be important. A challenge is that such a format is too short in time for any depth debate at all.
First thing to do is to go through all of the content on Kosmographia channel on TH-cam on this subject. Surprise ,that is an effort. To learn things one must provide an effort. Only thereafter one can even be qualified to have an opinion on whether the Carlson view is stronger or weaker than any other about the subject.
@@obtuseangler768 What the imaginary liability that's you're talking about that you drew that wild parallel with?
@@obtuseangler768- If you knew anything about archaeology or philosophy of science, you would understand that archaeology is hardly a science. Archaeologists may use specific scientific methods and techniques for things like excavation and measurement, but that makes their methods 'science-oriented' at best. It doesn't change the nature of archaeology itself.
It's funny that they are effectively agreeing but arguing about semantics. Graham effectively believes that it was built by an advanced civilization and Schermer believes that hunter gatherers were more advanced than originally thought. So the argument seems to be about the somewhat dismissive way that he still calls them hunter gatherers. Also Schermer falls victim to the fallacy that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
yeah, and hancock falls in the fallacy that absence of evidence allows you to publish unssoported ideas that you potrair as something fair when you have people challenging you but you sell it as evidence in seminars and books with pretentious names
You're missing it entirely. Graham thinks that the people who built the site were from an advanced, much more advanced, fallen civilization that had metal tools and all sorts of other advanced technology. That this advanced civilization was located somewhere else that is lost--- which is entirely without evidence and ridiculous.
Hancock proposes something Shermer does not, that Gobleki is a product of technology transfer from a more advanced civilization.
You missed Mr.Hancock's entire point if you think he's arguing the semantics.
Graham is trying to make a case for civilizations that were more advanced than is known for that time period. He wants to write books about mysterious past civilizations, because people buy them. He needs this to remain mysterious. Remember what Shermer said about motive? That was a quick left jab, that went unblocked.
Our ancestors mapped star cycles twenty seven thousand years long, When you build anything you don't back fill with rubbish and broken tools. What a stupid argument. The Aztecs and Mayans didn't use metal or wheels to forge all those
buildings, pyramids, golden statues and artificial islands. Obsidian swords and stone tools did just fine. Shermer is a professional skeptic. Of course he's going to act the way he does.
Usually you don't fill it with this stuff on purpose, but it happened virtually everywhere that there have been excavations and in fact shards and scraps not seldomly are an even more important source of archeological insight than the actual monuments.
I agree with your statement all the way, with the exception of the obsidian swords part.
Obsidian is extremely hard to forge, especially to the point of usage without shattering or chipping.
Unless I just got r/whooosh'd.
Obsidian breaks easily
Bradley Allen the Aztec macuahuitl was crafted from obsidian and wood, they knew how to use it without it breaking.
He makes tens of thousands on this garbage.
Graham is superb at putting his point across. I laugh that all other organisations that fear him because what he’s says has so much truth. Go Graham .
Graham sounds more educated, well thought and well spoken than Michael Shermer and Graham is not a trained scientist. Meanwhile Michael Shermer seems to be trying very hard to dismiss Graham's theories with weak arguments and he was fighting a losing battle.
Almost like it’s a silly way to communicate what is true. Debates are fun, but judging what is true just because someone is more well spoken seems silly to me.
@@bisk1407 Debates are worse than that. There are various tactics that can be used, by a skilled and aggressive debater, to make your opponent appear weak or wrong or to force them into a corner which the audience may not see happening right before them.
Debates are more akin to salesmanship than discussion.
I would like to recommend Miniminutemen, a channel here on TH-cam that made a multi part series discussing every point and episode Hancock made in his Netflix show and explains and debunks all of them. I was intrigued by Grahams points but watching Miniminutemen really put it in perspective how ridiculous some of his claims are.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781- "Miniminutemen"? Are you seriously recommending that garbage channel? Why not some low IQ TikTok influencer then, or some trash cable television channel like the History Channel, or The Learning Channel (TLC)? I'm just asking.
@@kristofferlodesjo5781 Miniminutemen did a very good job on some points, but i felt they, like this michael guy missed the point of some of grahams statement. Ultimatley, we know have buildings from atleast 9,000 bc. Miniminute men seemed to give very crap explanations on that point. Either Hunter Gatherer somehow how the extra man power to be able to have astronomers, and skilled labourers. which is unlikely considering evidence of agriculture was in mesopetamia atleast 13,000 years ago. Or there was a civilisation before the sumerians. in which case Graham would be off by a couple thousand years but still would be ultimatly right about a lost civilisation.
Graham owns this. Well done, Sir!
No he doesn’t? If you actutlisten to him all he does is spew a bunch of big words and quote literal Nazis
My kids can paint but I'll be damned if they can build a structure out of stone
mindfuk your kids are just stupid.
My kids could make megalithic structures since they were four.
Your kid is too dumb to play with blocks? Lol.
Even with the internet and modern day tech I would be surprised if laymen who usually hunt or do other stuff could build something like Gobekli Tepe if they just came together.
@timwins31 because he has to keep the narrative that the mainstream acheologists built, that civilization wasnt advanced until white people caught up and started building/stealing things. Anything before that point, "not advanced they were just cave idiots that accidentally made this stuff"
I notice that Scientist do not talk about the culture that must have existed to create this site. Notice the carvings are not into the rock but are actually carved from the rock. This requires a higher level of artistry. In order to have these artists you need a support system. Using the model developed to estimate native American tribes prior to the Europeans coming into their lands, we know for each warrior it took 11 other Indians to support that one warrior. Now to support one artisan, you would need 11 people. People planting and growing food, people building houses, people making clothes, people making tools, religious leaders. This shows a large and well-organized society.
"Where are the tools?" Did the people who built your house leave the circular saws and nailguns there when they left?
Yes they did, nails, wood off cuts, pieces of plasterboard, wall plugs, packaging from wall sockets etc. 10 years in working in construction you see it a lot.
@@samueljohnston1043and after 10,000 years, would those nails and plasterboard still be there?
@@Dupree109 dunno it's possible tho
Even if hypothetically you can’t find the tools, we have the structure.
They must have been built somehow. The tools existed. Whether they are destroyed or we just can’t pinpoint their location is irrelevant. We know they existed.
What kind of strawman argument is that?
I could entertain Shermer's skepticism up until 23:25 when he compares cave paintings to megoliths
He wasn't comparing megoliths to cave paintings., he was referring to the art work on the megoliths to the cave paintings.
@@Leeside999 Yeah which even then is a huge effin leap.
@@cordovalark5295 not necessarily, its just another form of art
He says conveying 3D abstractions onto a 2D medium is incredible. What about conveying 3D abstractions onto a 3D world? Apparently it's child's play.
Shermer was smashed during this debate. He don't know enough about the topic to combat randall's and Graham's evidence.
He's always like that. He's a professional debater and will say anything for money.
@Nick Nack bruh you on like every second comment. Why you so hurt?
How? They both had relevant points and theories. Neither “proved” anything
What evidence? Way more has been learn about this. Shermer was in the right with his skepticism. Speculation is fine. But claims require evidence.
Standard lack of understanding the burden of proof here. You can't make a claim and say "my claim is right or has equal value till proven wrong." That is simply a poor way of thinking. If you assert you need to demonstrate that it is in fact possible, based on what we know or demonstrate your work to how you've decided its an option.
Taking the position of "I don't know" until evidence demonstrates otherwise is the only position to take. Which is exactly what was asked. Instead they got upset that they can't speculate ancient aliens, and rabbits.
Joe is the king of chat shows, Ive not seen any interviewer’s past and present that are anywhere near as interesting as him and the guests he has on.