Myths of RV Lithium Batteries. Fact or Myth

[@CMWobby1]

Everything you have stated is absolutely right. I’ve just fitted a lithium 200 amp to my Motorhome and it’s way outperforming the previous lead acid battery.

[@ambikesandboards]

Finally a non biased knowledge video not trying to sell a specific brand
. Thank you

[@emeraldmorningmist]

Also for charging Battleborn lithium: I think you can fast charge them up to about 80% but then charging rates slow after 80% is charged. Thanks for the video.

[@daveduncan2748]

It's more like 98 or 99% before the charge rate really starts slowing with LFP. Check out the LFP SOC charts. The voltage doesn't really start spiking (that's what slows the charge rate) until around 13.5V, which is already 99% SOC.

[@ralphfeatherstone7813]

Nice to hear a vloger who speach is free of "ums" & "ahs" during his presentation. Thanks.

[@AllAboutRVs]

Thanks! I try to cut out as many as I can to make it easier to watch.

[@patmclean1951]

There is a a couple but for the most part a lot less stumbling or pausing :)

[@JjMn1000]

Ok

[@robertploss8715]

Hi Jarad. Regarding cold temps, its important to note the specs referenced refer to INSIDE battery temp, not ambient temp. Much different given batteries generate heat during use and if combined with an insulated compartment, an easy addition for RV applications, will not be a concern for RV's. The myths about cold temps originated with Battery Electric Vehicals (BEV's) and solar storage sheds. However these applications have a fix that applies equally for RV'ers that are away from their RV for extended cold periods: Internally heated batteries (for battleborn the model number has an "H" at the end) is integrated into the BMS and insures However even these applications have a fix for this: heated batteries. The heater uses 1 amp per 100AH - in case we have to dispell that myth as well. At -30F with 8 hours of run time I experience a combined power loss of 8%.

[@CFPVideoProductions]

You are absolutely right on the internalthe aspect. I never hear anyone talking about insulation or self generated heat.

[@mattclary2069]

If anyone has found a decent website for the RV lithium/solar TAX controversy please post it! Great video, Jared.

[@daveduncan2748]

Good video. Myth 4, lithium (LFP) charges 5x faster than lead is truer than you make out. It's a little more complicated than just what you presented. Remember, lead should be fully recharged every cycle to prevent sulfation. lead batteries typically charge in three phases, bulk (0.2C in your example), absorption (about half of that, or 0.1C) and float (which barely puts any amps into the battery). LFP can be charged at 0.5C until it is done, and doesn't need to float--and doesn't sulfate, so you don't need to fully recharge every day.
So, during the bulk phase, LFP isn't 5x faster than lead. But during the absorption and float phases, it is 5x faster--or even much more when lead is in the float phase. Lead batteries don't always need the bulk phase (unless you have deeply discharged them), but they always need the absorption and float stages to stay healthy.
Let's say I get up in the morning and the forecast is for rain. I know my solar won't be able to fully recharge my lead batteries. I'll need to run a generator and refill them to protect them from sulfation. I only used about 10% of the 100ah battery overnight, so I'm starting out charging in the absorption phase at 0.1C for an hour and I really should keep the float voltage on them for a while after that.
With a 100ah LFP, I run the generator (with a 50amp charger) for 12 minutes, and they are full. Better yet, I say, I'm only going to use 20-30% today and another 10% overnight, and that will only take me down to 50%, at most, which is fine. The forecast for tomorrow is sunny and my solar panels will have no problem refilling the battery from 50% SOC to full, so I'm not going to run the generator at all today.
So not only is LFP often (usually?) 5x faster to charge than lead, there are many scenarios where it is much more than 5x faster to recharge--and it may save me from having to run the generator at all in a lot of circumstances.

[@vtorsi610]

There are Smart Carbon Lead-Acid batteries that do *NOT* need to be at 100% SOC every day. They are more tolerant of a Partial-State-Of-Charge and they can take many amps during bulk, much like Li-Ion can.

[@ceeweedsl]

You beat me to it, I didn't even need to write my similar post.

[@daveduncan2748]

@@ceeweedsl And don't even get me started on how a day of solar, (alone) can't actually fully recharges any significant depletion of lead batteries, reducing the lifecycles of lead batteries. By the time the hours of bulk, absorption, and float (0.02C charge rate, a stage which itself can take over 20 hours) can get an AGM battery to 100% the solar panels are well into nighttime.

[@ceeweedsl]

​@@vtorsi610 Good to know.. Looks like a good bit of improvement, though still not comparable to the LFE. I guess that if I was committed to that chemistry, I'd consider.

[@ceeweedsl]

@@daveduncan2748 Yep. In my use, the difference is huge and I can't really imagine going back to lead-acid. Would be like giving up led flashlights to go back to incandescant bulbs.

[@davidfoppe636]

Thank you. You cleared up a lot of fuzzy areas for me.

[@brucefay5126]

VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) batteries, also known as “maintenance free” batteries are “wet cell” batteries with a special cap that combines gases internally, turning them back into water and keeping them in the battery. The still need to be installed upright and should be in a vented compartment. AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries are also lead-acid chemistry but they not wet cell batteries and can be installed in any orientation. In general, they do not need to be installed in a vented compartment.

[@xcentriclithium5467]

The chemistry of the lithium you will be using will be the determining factor on temps, the safety, and yes if using lithium trinate you can fully deplete it without fear of ruining the battery. Even though you have researched Lifpo4, there are differences, and not all lithium batteries are the same.

[@vtmarvincz]

Let me propose....:
For most of the people the topic boils down to question of finance. And here, IMHO, luckilly the callculation is quite simple.
For example, in my case:
1) How often I go? > I'm not camping with my RV more than 125 days/nights per year (all weekends and all my vacation), rather much less.
2) DoD? > Expected Depth Of Discharge per day is the most importand decission I have to make, since it dictates the batt. capacity needed and how long it will last! Depends on system setup - choosen battery capacity, load and solar input. This decision have direct impact on the "money vs effect" callculation. In my case I observed that I do not need more than 60Ah in a cold winter day, so I set my battery capacity management as follows: with the AGM battery, the capacity will be 120 Ah and it should never drop under 50%, if I would use LiPo then it would be 75Ah and I dont go under 20%.
3) AGM lifespan > typical AGM lifespan on regular 50% DoD is about 500 cycles, which means 4 years of life as a minimum (500/125). Then I might need to buy a new one. (Note, that the DoD lifespan can vary per product, I can use also GEL battery which has DoD lifespan slightly different etc.)
4) LiFePo lifespan > typical LiFePO lifespan on regular 80% DoD is about 2000 cycles, which gives me about 16 (2000/125) years of life as a minimum. Then I might need to buy a new one - if I'm still alive and if I'm still camping :-D (Again, the DoD lifespan can vary per product).
Now I can just check the retail prices for 120Ah AGM(+charger) and 75Ah LiFePO(+BMS+charger) of my choice, knowing that AGM will last for 4 years and LiFePO about four times longer. That's it - boom!
Do I want the longer lifespan? I'll buy higher capacity battery so it will not be stressed as much, but it will cost me more :-)
Off course, with LiFePo you get some bonuses such as much better weight vs capacity ratio, faster charging, higer currents etc... For some, those bonuses might be the decission point, but that's another story. :-)
Side note: in reality I spend camping much less then 125 nights a year and also LiFePo battery should be still usable even after 2000 cycles with it's capacity knocked down to approx. 80%. This mean - the LiFePo life span could easily reach 20 or 30 years (if realistic). Question is if the rest of el. equipment, RV and myselve will keep up. In 25 years from now I'll not be camping anymore, more likely I'll be dead already. So, for me LiFePo would be a "lifetime solution" with additional lifespan not adding to the economy model anymore. The AGM based system could be adjusted/upgraded every 4 years according to my needs and also loss in case of "beating up the battery" would be limited, since it shall be replaced anyway.

[@sdw48er]

The big different in charging lithium batteries vs lead acid, or AGM batteries is that lead acid and AGM require a bulk charging stage and lithium batteries do not. Which cuts the charging process to way shorter amount of time to charge them.

[@kd5you1]

This is a very informative video. There are a few more differences between LiFEPO4 and SLA batteries. The LiFEPO4 batteries maintain a voltage much closer to their fully charged voltage under load and until they reach 90-100% of their capacity. There are companies that make automatic cutoff switches for SLA batteries to prevent them from dropping below 11.5 volts or so and thus preventing dropping the batteries below 50% of their capacities. The battery management system on LiFEPO4 batteries will protect the battery against under voltage, over voltage, and excessive current draw. My particular use is not related to RVs, but I was able to install a 20AH LiFEPO4 battery where my 34AH SLA would not fit, and would still provide a longer runtime than the SLA.

[@ceeweedsl]

Good point. Higher voltage can increase efficiency of wiring and appliances.

[@kriskath1]

I was about to remove and buy again, a lead/acid deep cell battery for our boon docking camping at Lake Superior. Instead I did my homework and went for the Battleborn 100. I am amazed! I did need to buy a specific type charger that did not go into the
anti sulfation mode. I got one that actually connects to my Bluetooth on my iphone so I can monitor the initial charge. WE put the new battery in with a charge of 13.9 volts. After 7 days of camping , shower pump event, lights on....and radio and only one half hour of heater on we were still topped off at 13.1volts! I was happily shocked. We have gone thru 3 traditional deep cell batteries since 2018. So getting this was a bit of $ but will pay off over the years ahead. 10 year warranty? Cant beat that! We will solar recharge as needed. So far..no need. :). Controller in the 90w solar panel is compatible with the battery. The RV controller is not. Nor is hooking up to shore power without a proper controller. But.....we are off grid, so not an issue. Great explanations about "myth" and this product.

[@ceeweedsl]

Well done! Keeping it clear and simple.
On the charging claims, the difference in effective speed of charging for the LFE should be even higher than the difference of 50ah vs 20 ah in a 100ah unit. This is because the Lead acid needs to drop to a lower absorption charging level once it hits 80%. The LFE does not. Using the lead acid to 50% discharge means that charging a "100 ah" will allow 20 amps for 60% of the top half and then the lower absorption rate for a full 40% of the usable amps. I won't do the math, but this factor will, in actual daily usage slow the lead acid charging quite a bit further behind the Lithium Iron Phosphate. 5x might be actually track people's real world experience in daily use, especially with solar.
This difference means that the same usable amps of L/A will require more solar wattage to get it charged in a day since you have to make sure you get a full .2 C asap each day to spend the rest of the day in absorption. That makes L/A more expensive due to increased panels needed.
And, on cost, there is also the factor of storage. The LFE needs no trickle charge and can sit for a long time in a parked RV. The L/A will need a trickle charger to keep it alive and I've seen that take a toll on L/A batteries. If storage is part of your RV usage, then the cost difference will open up a bit more.
Also, there is the potential damage to a battery that rarely gets to a full charge. If there is not enough charging time in any given day, not only is that a loss of usable power, but it might shorten the life of the L/A and lower the cycle life and/or the available capacity. The Lithium Iron Phosphate doesn't care and will actually last longer if not charged to 100%. But it will get there sooner if you need the capacity.
A lot of factors! You did well by keeping it simple.

[@Endless_Skyway_Adventures]

^^THIS^^

[@brianbiggar144]

LIFePO4 cost comparison is more complicated than simply saying they are higher up front vs AGM or LA. To me the value for Rvers and especially full time Rvers is the weight savings. Cost is secondary (JMHO). You still have only so much cargo carrying capacity for your RV and eating it up with heavy AGM batteries or other LA batteries can be a serious compromise to the lifestyle when one still needs food, clothing and other gear essential for the lifestyle. MInd you, it really depends on your rig's capabilities. For some it may not be an issue at all, on others and predominantly larger trailers with larger volumes and less capable axles than they should have this becomes a really balancing act where it come to your cargo allowance.
Your statements are true enough but to fully evaluate the cost issue one has to take into account other factors depending on how diligent the buyer is. One can go buy a BB for about a $1000 or ~$500 for SLA equivalent (200AH @12v at 50% usable) Ball park numbers for demonstration only. Yes the BB will last much longer than the SLA. But if one invests the $500 saved by going SLA at 8% and uses the SLAs properly (not discharging the battery past 50% then over a span of 15 years the compare is much more equal since you will have enough saved for roughly two replacements of the original SLA batteries. True there is still plenty of capacity on the original BBs after 15 year of use again assuming the BBs were not abused. There is another part of the calculation not being taken into account... time actually using them. Many full time RVers simply tire of the "life" and get off the road after 5 -10 years. If this is you, then forking out big bucks for lithium may not be for you especially if you do not boondock enough to justify the cost and if you are not fully committed to the lifestyle. Factors to consider before leaping into Lithium batteries. Don't get me wrong there is a place for lithium, and we are doing it because of the weight savings... we prefer to carry more of our stuff and less battery weigh makes that possible. YMMV as they say.

[@TheSn1per]

@Brian Biggar : Gonna second you right here. Knowledge is key when making a choice. They all have their pros and cons. For me. weight, power and then cost for an RV. if it were a race car? same thing. pros and cons. funny people go out and buy a 50-100K rv.. whats another few bucks for a hi-perf battery?

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

Great points. I think if you are. AGMs/Sealed Batteries are pretty dummy proof and generally safe as long as you are not fully depleting them constantly. If the weight isn't a huge issue and you are on the fence about how long you'll even be in an off grid lifestyle, there's no need to spend $1000s on batteries. I think most casual weekenders and smaller rigs would get a lot more casual traction and money saving out of an AGM.

[@clydea.hutchisoniv5742]

@@TheDawnofVanlife or just get a jackery 500 for $425 off amazon and limit your electricity use supplementing with propane haha

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

@@clydea.hutchisoniv5742 why limit my electricity use when I can get more traction out of AGMs for the same cost? And I already use propane. I just really see no point in ever using electric cooking/heating. Why waste the power? I have two 100ah AGMs in my van and really no problems, no complaints. They cost less then $200 apeice, I'm getting twice as much usable power as a Jackery.

[@isaiahbangura4421]

@@TheDawnofVanlife With AGM you can only deplete is to 50% because the volts go down which means appliances use more electricity to run.

[@mollycasey39]

Wish these "switching to a lithium battery" would talk about switching out the battery charger/manager. :) I'll keep looking.

[@glenpomeroy2047]

Thanks Jared, great information on batteries esp on cold weather use of using batteries.

[@jacktyler7599]

Good data, Jared. I do feel even objective Lithium-related videos ignore a principal issue: The vast majority of all RVs have been and are being built with vented battery compartments. And one of the popular RV trends these days is the "4 Season" package, allowing one to extend RV use deep into the shoulder seasons. (We've used our Lance in single digit temps F). This presents a clear conflict in one's priorities, as being unable to recharge a bank in sustained cold weather is a meaningful negative. AND this can add a 'double cost' to a Lithium conversion if they need to be rewired to an interior location while also consuming interior space otherwise used.

[@ericgilman5457]

Can you not close off the vents and put some insulation in the compartment?

[@gourleyt]

Also you can add battery warming pads.

[@paulbranstine4925]

A Light bulb in the compartment can make the difference

[@marknathanks7592]

I am very happy to bring mine inside. I now, dont have the batteries rotting (rust) my frame up front. First thing that rotted was the screws they installed my battery boxes to the frame. Less than a year. Then the battery cross rails repelled all the paint, rust. (no primer) . Inside, there clean and safe (from theft) and dry.

[@BreatherBoy]

One guy with GSD, Outdoors RV tt, 510 watts solar, 4 battleborns, Victron inverter, battery controller and monitor. Installed myself...luv it...

[@yummiermussel5331]

can you run a camper ac with these ? say with 4 or 6 of them

[@AllAboutRVs]

Great setup.

[@isaiahbangura4421]

@@yummiermussel5331 30 amp or 50 amp? Add a soft start to the AC and you can get about 20 mins

[@MikeBaxterABC]

This is the third instructional video i watched.
I spicifically wanted to know if these modern lithium batteries would suit my application.
Answerr is NO!
If they can't be used constantly at 40 below zero .. they are usless for me.
Great info thankyou for the video! :)

[@byronewhite]

I believe they have a model with a built in heater. Check out their web site

[@gabbyjim]

Thanks, @@byronewhite for taking the time to make the comment about LiFePo4 batteries with internal heaters. I was just about to write off LiFePo4 batteries for my RV as we have experienced 35 below once, and more than 20 below often where we live. I WILL check that out!

[@gabbyjim]

@Kamper Ken and Mike Baxter - - I don't know of ANY battery than can work at FORTY BELOW ZERO - Fahrenheit OR Centigrade (for all intense porpoises, that's the same level of cold [those are NOT spelling errors - it's a play on words]). Furthermore, even propane won't come out of the bottle when that cold. In the absence of Mains/shore power, or some other alternative means of heat / electricity, Mike is going to have a real problem staying warm. (My 4,000 watt generator runs on E0 gas OR propane, so I've go it covered.)
I did a LOT of research on this, before I spent over three-thousand dollars on it - So I'm pretty confident that this is going to work - - I am presently in the process of installing two LiFePo4H batteries in my RV - the operative word here is "IN" - Not on the tongue like the lead-acid batteries they are replacing (which batteries survived 38F below, but were on a charger).
I'm putting the LiFePo4 batteries, and a MultiPlus 3,000 watt inverter/charger, in the generator compartment (there's still room for a modern generator). The "H" stands for self "H"eating - get details at Battle Born Batteries dot com.
The new batteries can deliver current to four below - far below the point where lead acid batteries would become blocks of frozen acid unless kept warm and fully charged. At that point, the Battery Management System (BMS) will shut them down until they warm up enough to accept a charge.
I live in my RV full time, in a place where winter temperature often dip colder than twenty-below for weeks on end. So, if I don't pack up and leave, and the commercial power fails, my life could depend on my LiFePo4 batteries and the associated equipment.

[@ceeweedsl]

Two factors: yes, you put a little pad heater under or around the battery to manage the temp if that extreme. But also, LFE batteries dont leak, don't offgas and are preferentially installed in the weather protected inside of the RV. Where the people live. So they don't get as cold in an RV as a battery that has to be kept outside.

[@gabbyjim]

@@ceeweedsl it order to use a "little pad heater" there must be a source of power for it. If you have "mains" or "shore power" that's not a problem, but if your mains fail, the LiFePo4H provides a measure of safety. However, if temps drop to the minus forty range, there is no substitute for a good old-fashioned gas generator (see my previous comments on propane).
Even THAT is no assurance of survival though. Absolutely nothing beats the primevil heat source - fire! If the mains fail, and the batteries run out, and the generator won't start, a good supply of firewood and a way to burn it safely is the ultimate survival method. (As a BSA Scout Master, I taught my boys how to build a heater/cook-stove out of old tin cans - anybody got an old BSA Hand Book? NO? surf for 'rocket stove' and 'rocket stove mass heaters'.)

[@bobandtams]

Thanks for all the good words. We are looking to install more solar and switch over to lithium batteries🤔

[@marzsit9833]

biggest advantage of lithium for solar is the ability to absorb a charge at a very high rate, important if cloud cover intermittently shades the system during the day. lead acid can only charge at a relatively slow rate compared to lithium.

[@J3sus1sL0rd1]

Your statements are very true about the Battle Born battery for very reliable plus very long lasting and safety too.

[@donholcomb4060]

Can you do a video on using heating pads and insulation to keep lithium ion batteries worm for charging and use in cold climates? We are thinking of upgrading to lithium but we just spent several days in a rv park with temps in the 20's. We don't do much boondocking but do camp, full hookup in rv parks during the winter. Thanks

[@user-mt4zr5kp7h]

Silicon dioxide. Good to -40 1/3 the cost of lithium, can be depleted to 100% dod. They have all the best benefits of lead-acid and lithium. Only down side is they're still heavy.

[@gabbyjim]

Hummm Silicon dioxide is another name for common sand - if you're not pulling our leg, how about a source for more information?

[@TomandLoriRVLife]

Jared, thank you so much for this information! Easy to understand! :)

[@WILDEBILL308]

Great information. Well it is hard for me to justify the cost right now as we don't do much boondocking. Also when I bought my current coach they replaced all the house batteries for me free.

[@williambaker6630]

Not for free buddy! Nothing is free!

[@WILDEBILL308]

@@williambaker6630 Nothing is free! This is true. However this happened after the paperwork was signed at the agreed on price. Yes 4, 6V batteries isn't that much There is a difference in how you are treated at better dealers.

[@williambaker6630]

@@WILDEBILL308 I am sure they already had that in mind to put them in. Hey it made you feel like you was getting something for free.

[@WILDEBILL308]

@@williambaker6630 Yes and add in the 6 315/80R22.5 Toyos New reservoir for the hydro hot, new latch for the washing machine Full annual maintenance including all filters and the generator. I am glad they are just trying to make me feel good because it is working. I forgot they replaced the motor and gears in the awning over the door.

[@gabbyjim]

@@WILDEBILL308 "There is a difference in how you are treated at better dealers." AMEN to THAT! 2009, after looking at used cars "all over the place" and doing some customer satisfaction research on the Internet, I bought my van (that I converted to an RV) at Enterprise (family owned car rental). AFTER the ink was dry, they replaced all 4 tires on the van AND gave me $300 credit for my junker. (Too bad they "Turned" on the NRA later - but a family owned business is free to let politics sway them, or not.) I am SO glad I found All About RV's to help me through the maze on RV stuff.

[@brucefay5126]

One of the other major advantages of LiFePO4 (LFP) vs Lead-Acid (LA) chemistry is that LFP batteries are not affected by being left with a partial state of charge. With LA batteries, they need to be returned to 100% SOC, and maintained there, as soon as possible after any amount of discharge.

[@vtorsi610]

one $1,000 = 12v @ 100AH BattleBorn vs a pair of $90 each = 215AH @ 6V Duracell GC2 (50% DOD) every 5 years ...
Four (4) Flooded Lead Acid = $360 / 10 years is approx 1/3rd the cost of one BattleBorn = $1000 / 10 years !

[@MrTommy001]

The lithium batteries should NOT go unused for long periods of time totally charged. They should be stored at about 60-70% with no charging going on.

[@TheBirdandEagle]

What can I say but, excellent information as usual. Thank you.

[@nealdavis350]

You do an excellent job identifying important topics and then discussing them in a clear, understandable way, Jared. Thank you for this video, but more generally for the channel itself. (Ps, Should you see your buddy Jason Calhoun, please tell him that I miss his videos. Thanks!)

[@AllAboutRVs]

Thank you that is very kind. Funny thing is we just spent a couple days with The Calhoun family.

[@nealdavis350]

@@AllAboutRVs Rats, my timing is lousy. ;-)

[@rcsproject627]

Jared awesome, you always have great info and explain in great detail. Thank you. Cheers!!!

[@AllAboutRVs]

Thank you!
That is very kind.

[@steventhomas729]

Thank you for all of the good and useful information you presented in this video. You video dispelled some of the contrary information I've heard about the different types of batteries. I also just subbed to your site. Keep up the great work and thank you again!

[@ricktaylor5420]

Just a little clarification.
You didn’t mis state anything, but.
Low temp charging is based on the temp of the battery, not the outside ambient temp.
Best and safest way to heat the batteries is to use them, during use the cells will warm up fairly quick and most importantly, all the cells will be at similar temps, where as heating with heating pads warm the outside cells, but not the inside.

[@TheSiprianus]

The only time the battery need to be heated is when the battery is in a temperature that's lower than the 'safe to use temperature', so why would it be the best and safest way to heat the batteries?

[@richpetrelli2783]

I use a 100W incandescent bulb to keep the battery compartment warm. Works great! Especially if you have it turned on before the temp dips below freezing.

[@todddunn945]

@@richpetrelli2783 If you are running off battery that 100 watt light will flat a 100 amp-hr lithium battery in 12-13 hours. Fine if you are plugged in, but not such a good idea if you are on off grid and charging with solar unless you have lots of extra solar.

[@ricktaylor5420]

Fidel Cato
My comment is on charging the lithium batteries. Typically these batteries can be used (discharged) down to around 0 degrees F, but the BMS will not allow the battery to be charged until it is around 30 degrees F. Temps vary between manufactures.
So what I’m saying is if the BATTERY TEMPERATURE is below 30 degrees, but is above 0 degrees, the best way to warm a lithium battery is to use it.
Our testing has shown the second best way, or the best way if the temp is below 0 is to heat the compartment with warn air for a long period of time. Battery heating pads will work to, but they have to be on for longer periods of time.

[@frito_bandito_]

I have a LifeBlue low temp 100 AH LiFePO4 battery, and it can be charged down to -4° F. It has a built in heater that kicks in when the battery temp drops below 25° F. In 15° F. temperatures, it took the battery 18 minutes to come up to 35°F internal temp where it began charging. We see these type of temps and much worse all winter long in Wisconsin.

[@lloydkennedy7433]

Thanks for your excellent explanation, so a good quality BMS is as important as the Lithium battery itself?

[@AllAboutRVs]

Yes a quality BMS is very important.

[@ceeweedsl]

This is the reason that I chose Battleborn years ago. If your BMS is flaky then the cells are in danger. Too many ways to damage them.

[@maryj.1261]

Thank you for that straight forward information...

[@gregn1860]

Great information.. I just put in lead acid Batteries to replace what I had. Lithium battery (Battle Born) would be my preference however $$ is dominate this time.. Maybe next time.

[@ronoboogie5739]

Good stuff as always, I'm saving up to replace the Led Acid battery that came with our trailer with the Battle Born LifeP04. I've read a lot of good reviews and I agree in the long run its a good investment.

[@AllAboutRVs]

Thank you. It would be hard to go back after using them now.

[@realvanman1]

Lead acid batteries can take a very heavy charge current so long as they are physically designed for that much current, and the absorption voltage is not exceeded. Rule of thumb is the initial charge current can equal the amp hours removed. So a 100 amp hour battery at 50% SOC can accept 50 amperes, initially. But of course always follow the manufacturer’s instructions. Some very large batteries aren’t physically designed for that much current.

[@richardowens9061]

Remember, you can mitigate the cold weather problems with LiFePO4 batteries simply by keeping them warm. You can do that in a variety of ways:
1 - Keep the batteries inside your RV where you are. If you're comfortable, the batteries will be comfortable.
2 - Use a thermostat controlled reptile heating mat under the batteries to keep them warm, along with properly insulating them to conserve that heat, if they're going to be located in an area exposed to the weather. Alternately, you can use after market car seat heaters with a thermostat to control them. If you use the car seat heaters, you should wire them in series to reduce the amount of heat they produce (and, the amount of power they draw) - because, if you connect them in parallel, they produce more heat than is needed. The reptile heating mats produce about the right amount of heat and use very little power, only they typically need AC power to run them, rather than the DC that the car seat heaters use.
3 - Chase warmer weather.
Additionally, it should be noted that LiFePO4 batteries CAN be charged at temperatures below the recommended limit. It's just that they must be charged at a much lower charge rate to avoid damage (0.1C to 0.2C, versus 0.5C which is the normal recommended charge rate for LiFePO4 batteries). So, if you have a large battery bank and limited solar power, you may still be able to charge them at lower temperatures. Of course, it's better to just keep the batteries warm.

[@Adiscretefirm]

Some people also place the inverter and the batteries in an insulated space so that heat produced by the inverter keeps the batteries warm.

[@richardowens9061]

@@Adiscretefirm The problem with doing that is that during warmer weather the inverter can get too hot, as well as heat the batteries up, too, which can shorten their life. LiFePO4 batteries are healthiest at the temperatures people like the most - 70-80 degrees fahrenheit.

[@richardowens9061]

@Kamper Ken Yes, that would be a reasonable approach. LOL!

[@koslund11]

Jared, You didn't mention the tax break you get when buying solar for your RV. If you purchased lithium batteries or installed a complete system in 2019, you can get a 30% tax break. For 2020 that break will drop to 26% and 2021 it goes down to 23%. That 958 dollar battery drops down to 670. Big savings and a little closer to being a reasonable price.

[@AllAboutRVs]

Good point! I was actually looking at that last week.

[@yellowglider]

koslund11 Thanks, I didn’t know about that!!! Getting the invoice out right away!!!

[@todd2456]

True, but the RV has to be accepted as a second home by the IRS for tax purposes, correct ??

[@koslund11]

@@todd2456 The IRS does recognize your RV as a second home. I claimed my credit for the 2018 tax year. If you do your own taxes, use IRS Form 5695. This is a one time tax credit.

[@yellowglider]

I found an article that explains the process. Unfortunately it seems that only motorhomes qualify, no trailers or campers...
www.godownsize.com/large-rv-count-as-second-home/

[@brianchetelat6601]

Thank you Jared, always helpful.

[@raven7068]

another great video thanks.
This fall of 2020 battleborn is making a new battery it's going to be a 12 volt 250 amp hour battery I can't wait to get it!

[@kenleach2516]

Nice summary.

[@philchovanec8167]

Great job, I have learned a lot from you. Keep up the good work

[@daveh6856]

Battle Born 100 Ah batteries are actually 120 Ah with a cut off at 100 Ah. All other 100 Ah batteries I have seen are 100 Ah batteries and the BMS cutoff is somewhere around 80 Ah so the Battle Borms have more usable energy.

[@Markomyt1]

Great content!
Very understandable breakdown of the information!

[@xXRenaxChanXx]

If that's the case, why don't most AGM or GEL batteries have vents for them to off-gas?

[@weslynn8905]

I was told my 2019 outdoors 25 rks wasn't set up for lithium . I thought you could just drop the lithium in but that's not the case.

[@CartersTrail]

There is nothing to "set up" for lithium other than ensuring your charger is compatible. If you visit the Battle Born web site, they have a chart that shows what manufacturer and model of chargers are safe with their batteries. Most WFCO and other models that are included with RVs are compatible. If not, you would just need to upgrade that charger in your RV at the same time. A quick call to Battle Born will confirm whether your specific model charger will work.

[@AllAboutRVs]

Good info Craig Carter, that’s spot on.

[@annieandalfie]

Craig Carter good luck trying to find that chart on mobile website

[@CartersTrail]

@@annieandalfie Agreed; FAQ: battlebornbatteries.com/faq/ (Charging/Discharging link). Charging table: battlebornbatteries.com/charger-compatibility-table/

[@weslynn8905]

@@CartersTrail Thank you Sir for info.

[@jasonrobbind231]

Love my lion lithiums. I bought 2 1300s and can dry camp for 10 days no problem. Only 28lb a piece so now I'm carrying 2 30lb propane bottles awesome.

[@mikemccarty8272]

Jason Robbind what brand did you buy!

[@jasonrobbind231]

@@mikemccarty8272 lion energy 1300's out of Utah

[@mikemccarty8272]

Jason Robbind did you have to change out your controller?

[@jasonrobbind231]

@@mikemccarty8272 No I didn't 2020 19ft Geo pro 100 watt stock solar panel that came with it. Everything works great so far. Two of them are over kill better to be safe than sorry. I only dry camp the longest is 3 weeks and the were only at 88% there really unbelievable. The best part is lifetime warranty

[@markbroad119]

Those "vents" are also so you can check the water/acid solution level.

[@alwaysmoody800]

Great information , spot on .

[@marianunez2767]

Hi! Your videos are awesome! Love all the information. I've bought an rv. 1st timer, with zero knowledge... so thats why im on here subscribing to people like you . Thanks for the lessons. Question...if i replace my old lead half dead rusty battery with just one battle born battery, will i be sble to power a few lights, a 12 volt rv tv and a domenic refrigerator? Right now om on power, but want to go off grid. I plan to buy a generator to recharge the battle born . You have two but o can only afford one and it will just be me so not much usage.

[@ceeweedsl]

That fridge runs on propane, right? Just a little power for the controller? If so, then the 100 ah could work.

[@franzjohnson-dm1ge]

If you're currently using a L/A battery charger, you will need to change this out for a L/I charger. They are different. Yes you can use a L/A charger on a L/I battery; however, you won't get a full charge. So in my case I'll have to change out the solar charger, and the AC coach charger. This could add cost. And since I'm pulling a trailer, what about the connection in the trailer connector that allows the truck to supply power to the trailer. Will this be an issue? Not sure on that one..

[@thecritterandthebutterfly]

Interesting. It seems lithiums are still being discussed a lot. One of the gentlemen in the battle born booth at the Quartzsite RV show was telling people he took his batteries down to zero all the time. I was under the impression you don't want to go below 20 percent. He said no, you can regularly use all the capacity with no problem. Are they de-rating their cells enough that you can take them to the BMS shut-down with no issues? Hmmmmm. Our AGMs are at the end of their service life so I'm back to the HD deep-cycle AGMs or lithium debate again. It'll end up being finances winning out of course. I've been saving so we'll see what ends up in the battery bay. Safe travels.

[@dragonsteamwerx8054]

Not sure what "down to zero" is really representing but no type of lithium battery can be taken to 0 volts with destroying it similar to lead acid batteries. Keep in mind with the built in battery management system it could be displaying a scale % based on voltage readings but it is not 0. Probably more like 3.2 V on typical lion as the minimum which is still safe.

[@thecritterandthebutterfly]

@@dragonsteamwerx8054 My take was that you could take them down to zero out their rated capacity. As was said, the BMS will shut down the battery output at a fixed low point. I was under the impression that you didn't want to do that to insure a long life for the battery. They are the experts on their product so I suppose they would know if that has changed. Seems a Monday e-mail is in order. Thanks for the reply.

[@richpetrelli2783]

If you look at the discharge curve of LifePo4s you will see that voltage dramatically falls off logarithmically at some point, late in the discharge curve. My 12V appliances and lights will fail long before I reach 0% so why even go that low except for test purposes?

[@dragonsteamwerx8054]

@@richpetrelli2783 I think alot of confusion comes thinking of these batteries as a cell which there are actually many cells in a battery all controlled by a management system. I personally dont know what a particular manufacturer utilizes in their particular unit but the parameters of cell dont vary. All have a max and min voltage as well as max discharge rate and a max charge rate. Though used in the same application, comparing lead acid to lion is apple to oranges to a large degree. Lion has some advantages in energy density ie weight and size as well as life cycles but disadvantages in cost and complexity. Lead acid has advantages in peak amperage draw ie cca by comparison and cost which is the driving factor for original equipment by oem rv manufacturers I imagine. If you boom dock alot I can see the reasons why lion would be appealing and for a full time that doesnt boondock why lead acid makes more economic sense. It all comes down to application and which better fits your particular intended use.

[@santiagopollocko5494]

There are other Lithium Batteries that equal Battle Born and match quality. Of Battle Born . Check out William Prowse TH-cam channel . He is one of the gurus in lithium batteries and building DIY Solar Systems. This is a good video and good information. Prowse Takes battery quality to a whole different level.

[@debario5490]

I live in -40 in Canada. Should I remove my lithium battery and store in my basement over winter?

[@deanherr8049]

I'm looking upgrade to lithum batteries and a solor panels.

[@AllAboutRVs]

They are great. It would be hard to go back after using them.

[@edrodrigues3333]

How about charging while traveling.
Can you charge Lithium batteries from your truck alternator?

[@bboyda4399]

Great information Jared, I was wondering if you use a DC to DC smart charger from your truck's 12 volt system, your setup and how it works for you. Thanks again for your great presentations.

[@j.b.9895]

B Boyda DC TO DC lithium charging can be done with a quality charge controller with lithium settings. Not all controllers are lithium capable

[@bboyda4399]

@@j.b.9895 Thanks for your response, I will keep that in mind.

[@markholland8953]

Great job, Jared! Followers of your channel have heard most of these already. But, it never hurts to bring it all together.
You mentioned using / replacing lead acid batteries (multiple) times during the life of a lithium battery. What happens to all those lead acid batteries once they "die"? Is there a recommended disposal method??? And is there something similar for lithium?

[@mikepostell8720]

Mark Holland lead acid you take to store when you buy new battery. If you don’t have a battery you pay a core charge. So when replacing you just take to store.

[@markholland8953]

@@mikepostell8720 But what about the other types of batteries?

[@mikepostell8720]

@@markholland8953 I believe agm is disposed of same as standard lead acid. I’m not sure on lithium the way I read them they will last 3,000-5000 cycles and then are still good only 80% of original capacity. I almost think you would never need to replace them.

[@Markomyt1]

Most town have a recycling business. They pay me $6 every time I bring them one. I save up 2 or 3 and take them in all at once.

[@CartersTrail]

Charging compatibility table for Battle Born: battlebornbatteries.com/charger-compatibility-table/
FAQ page: battlebornbatteries.com/faq/ (Charging/Discharging link)

[@johnjackson9564]

We have a Heartland North Trail Caliber (2017) 29RETS, will it charge Battle Born batteries or will we have to do something different?

[@tmorton922]

Thanks. Always factual and based on solid experience and knowledge. 👍

[@johnpossible6292]

Question i have is . Can u add a lead acid battery with a lithium battery for a total of two batterys to run my rv? Also can u use a regular 12 volt car battery charger to charge a lithium battery? For instance when u winterize your trailer and take out the battery for the season. I have one dragonfly 100amp hour battery for reference

[@PhilSowden]

I can use some clarification - I have two lead acid 12v 75-amp hour batteries. They never charge above 90% and I can't really discharge past 50%. So I get to use 40% of that 150 combined amp hours, or 60 amp hours, correct? Whereas if I had a single, 100-amp hour lithium battery, I could get 100 amp hours of use?

[@AllAboutRVs]

You are absolutely correct. Lithium like battle born has changed the 50% use of the battery or in your case you are at 40% . With their lithium battery you can use the full stated capacity of 100 Amp-hours

[@PhilSowden]

@@AllAboutRVs Awesome thanks. Seems like lithium makes sense if you'll use it. My batteries are my biggest area of anxiety while I'm RV'ing.

[@brazilian-lady9175]

Great information!! Thank you

[@stevejohnson3557]

I have considered The lithium batteries for my 5th wheel..... however... how about the built in charger for the 5th wheel that charges the lead-acid batteries...,,. Does that need to be changed out?? Am I correct in assuming that a lithium battery is charged differently?? I have not heard that charging subject discussed?? Or did I miss something?? 🥴

[@steelpix]

What about letting your RV charge the Lithium battery? Is that ok to use the normal charging system in RVs?

[@dranevickie]

Thank you

[@wayneking1422]

You state in your video that it is safe to discharge a lead acid battery 50% before recharging it and will not shorten the life of the battery. What exactly does that mean? I have had so many different answers to this question. I don't know who to believe. Can you explain it to me? I have a 12 volt marine deep cycle battery that read 12.7 volts when it was new. I have run it down to 11.9 v. on a couple of occasions but usually have kept it to 12 v. or higher when I recharge it. That isn't over 50% discharge to my understanding. Now my battery won't recharge any higher than 12.3 v. It has lost some of its life. Why is that?

[@WhiteFox011]

The gases that are produced by the lead-acid batteries are HYDROGEN! and Oxygen. Hydrogen burns and oxygen is an oxidizer that supports all forms of combustion.if you look at the periodic table, you will see why hydrogen gas is so dangerous. Hydrogen is the first element listed on the periodic table and given the Atomic Weight of "1". It is extremely flammable and the oxygen that is also produced says, "come on down" to hydrogen. And you are correct, these batteries MUST ALWAYS be vented.

[@a64738]

That used to be true 20 - 30 years ago, now pretty much all lead batteries for sale is the sealed type that do not went. The battery compartment of my Ford Transit is under the driver seat with no venting and you do not hear of Transits blowing up (unlike electric cars...)

[@williammcnae8989]

I'm going to be upgrading my converter/charger/panel in my 1979 Avion 28' trailer to one that will charge three to six 100 AH lithium batteries. I am considering four chargers from Progressive Dynamics; 45 amp (PD 4045KA for $218.80), 60 amp (PD4060K for $285,79), 75 amp (PD4575K18LS8 for $366.84), and 90 amp (PD4590K18LS8 for $460.16). What are the advantages and disadvantages of going from 45 amps to 90 amps?

[@williambodine4575]

I have a small camping trailer (E-Pro) with solar charger and power inverter that has a GoPower 100Ah Lithium (LiFePO4) 12v Deep Cycle Battery and want to add another battery. The same battery cost $909 but a similar Lithium battery LiTime 12V 100Ah LiFePO4 Battery Built-in 100A BMS, Up to 15000 Cycles, Perfect for RV, Marine, Home Energy Storage only cost $350. Can I use the cheaper battery in series without any problems to the system or the other battery?

[@richardmoore2003]

Are RV batteries mounted behind the entry steps of a Class A vented?

[@chrisfannin5708]

I love how long they all say they will last but who really knows because how long have they been in use in rv????

[@AllAboutRVs]

Time will tell but they are very confident in their tests to put a 10 year warranty on them.

[@jm4672]

I just don't understand why they're so damn expensive. I mean, it looks like they would want to sell more. I mean why not just reduce them to like $700 instead of 1,500. That's just ridiculous. But you're right. They are good

[@richardowens9061]

There are a variety of reasons why LiFePO4 batteries are so expensive. First of all, they are a relatively new type of battery for the general population. That means, they don't sell as many as the older lead acid battery technology. Therefore, the cost per battery is higher. For example, if it takes 20 employees and a manufacturing facility to crank out LiFePO4 batteries - any number of them - then you have fixed labor and production costs that must be met in order to keep those employees and the facility that builds the batteries open. That cost must be met by the sales of the batteries - because, that is the product being produced. Well, in the beginning, there just aren't going to be enough sales to sell them at $700 instead of $1500 to keep those employees and the facility running. So, the increase in sales has to come before the reduction in price. That means that the early customers are going to pay more. The alternative is that the plant closes and those employees lose their jobs and no one gets the batteries. But, as the batteries become more popular and the plant produces more of them with those same 20 employees, the cost per battery goes down. And, as the batteries become more popular, more competition will show up in the marketplace. Both of those factors will drive the cost to the consumers down. I hope this simplistic example helps you to understand why they're so expensive now and why they will eventually come down in price. The upshot is this: Don't buy the LiFePO4 batteries until you need them, then pay whatever price they are at that time.

[@TheOtherBill]

Why only compare one premium lithium brand to the lowest cost wet cell? From what I can see camper/rv manufacturers are offering lithium as an option in many cases but mostly use AGM.

[@garryhammond3117]

Great vid! - Thanks!

[@williamcunningham1586]

I have 4 12v relion 100 amp hr batteries, can I use another companies battery with them as long as chemistry, amp hr are the same? like to buy less expensive battery

[@Dive-Bar-Casanova]

6V or 12 V lead acid. Very recyclable, available everywhere, affordable.

[@MrInnovativeEnergy]

Yup, and I see them last about 5 years on average for off-grid setups I install. They usually have about half of their stated capacity when temps get below 45F. Soon as you discharge them once they are ready to be replaced due to sulphation. Flooded cells can be "reconditioned" but in general they are never as good as they were new after the process. They are typically very low charge/discharge efficiency. The vapor during charging is highly toxic and corrosive, and the water levels need to be checked in flooded cells often. In third world countries they are often thrown in rivers where they pollute so badly that the rivers become lifeless. So, given what they are, they are fine in certain circumstances, but they are also very old, low energy density, and potentially heavily polluting, outdated technology.
th-cam.com/video/QS98gdX2GUE/w-d-xo.html

[@sully4875]

Thanks 👍🏻👍🏻

[@williambaker6630]

I hope their better then the motorcycle ones as mine didn't last 2 years with it.

[@marzsit9833]

with motorcycles it's usually the fault of the crude 1920's charging system that kills batteries rather than the battery chemistry itself. very few motorcycles have a proper alternator with a proper voltage regulating system.

[@stanvandecappelle4576]

Jared, can you use the converter that came with your rv, or do you have to replace it with one specifically designed for lithium batteries

[@artw1962]

Thanks for all of the fantastic videos! They're very entertaining and full of great info. I'm thinking of going lithium in our RV but I've never heard anyone say anything other than they charge them to 100% when they can. I have a Tesla and the owners manual specifically says to extend the life of the battery you should only charge it past 80% if you absolutely need the range that day. Is RV lithium different in some way that charging them to 100% all the time doesn't shorten their lifespan?

[@AllAboutRVs]

Great question, the stats Battle Born supplies do not show a decreased curve for charging up to 100%. I do believe in the past Tesla has used a different chemistry than what we see in the Battle Born batteries which is a LiFePO4.

[@artw1962]

@@AllAboutRVs Thanks Jared. That makes sense. I just looked it up - Tesla uses lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide in their batteries so it must be part chemistry and part capacity (75KW) that make the 80% target a thing.

[@andrewblue47]

Question. Do you need a different converter in the RV to charge the lithium battery? Like in the 28BH, if you’re not running solar.

[@prolinebuilds7360]

Is it easier on your system to charge for 100ah batteries or 2 - 200ah batteries? I know the capacity is the same but I didn’t know if it was spread out between four batteries if it would be easier on my system

[@todddunn945]

While you can draw a lithium battery down by 100% of its rated capacity, you will get fewer cycles from a battery drawn down routinely by 100% than one drawn down by 80% etc.

[@MrSummitville]

Use the battery LESS and it was last longer - no kidding! Drive LESS and your tires will last longer ...

[@Jack-ot9ek]

Thanks for the great information. How much of a lithium battery is recyclable after it has reached it's useful life?

[@dragonsteamwerx8054]

Pretty much the same as lead acid..both can be recycled

[@Crane_pond_Chronicles]

The fire risk is not worth it to me it's almost impossible to put out a lithium battery fire

[@ktmdays]

Got a lithium battery in my ktm dirtbike and hooked up a regular charger to it for a second and herd some clicking so I unplugged it dose that do any damage to the bike or the battery

[@shanespicer6348]

Well done.

[@davidpatrick1813]

Very good review which speaks truth. I have two BB and look for ways to have it not stay fully charged. :-) some say it is bad to keep at 100

[@cindy9383]

What kind of batteries would you recommend for someone who wants to use solar panels but has a low budget? I'm a digital nomad and teach online, needs energy for laptop and wifi.

[@tarefoot]

Is it true that a standard model converter charger, say a 2014 model, can't be used on a lithium battery?

[@crystalherrin7858]

Thank you! New sofa?

[@colingee6687]

Do you need a special solar charge controller or battery charger for lithium batteries?

[@AllAboutRVs]

It depends on the charger. I’m surprised by how many will actually get the job done with Lithium. Battle Born has a list on there website of all the chargers that are compatible with their battery. If you don’t see yours on the list you can always ask they are usually very quick in responding. More solar charge controllers are having a lithium or user settings you can dial in. Ours is relatively inexpensive and has the settings for lithium.

[@colingee6687]

What about the compatibility of the alternator in the tow vehicle being able to charge the lithium battery when you are towing the RV?

[@petecoventry6858]

And yet for half the price of a BB you can get a Renogy 200ah with heating in it.

[@CW1116]

You said, "Once a lead-acid battery freezes it's done - kaput." That is way too broad of a statement. The ONLY reason a lead-acid battery would be unusable after freezing is if the expansion causes the case to split and spill the liquid contents. I live in Minnesota and have had several batteries in seldom used vehicles become discharged and freeze solid. Some have split open and leaked whereas others have frozen solid but the cases have remained unsplit but bulged. I warm them to room temp and then charge them to full charge. They are as good as from before they froze and may last several more years.

[@barbaraflanigan1641]

Hi - ditto on the great presentation skills. Q4U .... How many of these BB (battle born) do you have in your rig and how do you effectively charge them at the 2x rate of lead acid when using your alternator? If you have two BB then that would be 2x50A = 100A requirement to make that 2x rate (or 0.50 x 1C) and have you made the investment in the needed DC2DC converter that would produce both a safe handling of the alternator loading and also produce an output that high in amperage and how much did you have to invest in the device that does this? If you have four BB lithium batteries that would be a 200A load to charge at a 0.5C rate and I am not sure if they even make a DC2DC that provides 200A and that's assuming your alternator would even produce that much.
That's always the thing that is so surprising to me, how people invest in lithium with a stated desire to charge faster, yet a 30A DC2DC converter seems always about all they are willing to spring for.
Also how are you getting that level of charge (100A for two or 200A for four) out of your "shore power" charge (assumed a converter) apparatus? Thanks.

[@AllAboutRVs]

We don’t always charge at such a high rate but can when it is nice to. We have 3 Lion Energy batteries and when we have been out where there is no available solar we used our generator to charge with the MultiPlus and a second lithium charger for a total of 150 amps. Our typical is just the 90 amps with the MultiPlus but when running the generator it was great running it for such a short time to recharge the batteries. We also have a dc to dc converter also for when towing.

[@jerryjaynes636]

Trying to understand battery balancing. With a BB, it has a battery monitor. If you have multiple BB batteries, do you have to balance each for charge?

[@AllAboutRVs]

They each have a BMS which you never see but does the cell balancing, monitoring and management to keep it all safe and functional. They only thing i did that is a good idea is to charge them up individually to make sure you batteries are all starting at the same 100% charge and connect to the opposite ends of the battery bank for charging and loads. You can see it payed out in the diagrams on the website but no need to do anything as you are using them. allaboutrvsinfo.com/rv-inverter-setup-how-to-power-it-all-30-and-50-amp/