Feeding Bees Sucrose Syrup vs HFCS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- A discussion with Lewis Bartlett from the University of Georgia on some of the chemistry behind using sucrose syrup, HFCS and honey for bee feed and why at times one may be superior to the other.
Includes interesting facts on how feeding can effect Hive Beetle populations, bacterial brood diseases such as European Foulbrood, and much more.
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The questions I have for future research after watching this:
1) Can we add Hydrogen Peroxide to syrup to reduce the glycolic acid the bees have to produce?
2) What is the threshold for Hydrogen Peroxide concentration that brood can survive in?
3) Would Hydrogen Peroxide rich feed create an environment in the brood cells that mites cannot survive or reproduce in?
Lots of exciting questions coming away from this work!
This was both great and exciting information. Lewis is great, as well. Really knowledgeable. I hope there will be a lot of people against feeding bees sucrose syrup or feeding in general that will see this. I see posts often of people saying they don’t supplemental feed and try to convince others to not feed. Like Lewis said, these beekeeping practices work and well kept bees are better off than feral or unkept bees. Thanks you as always, Bob! You are a legend in this space.
As always absolutely awesome video!! Thank you Mr Binnie for taking time to inform others. God bless you from Texas.
I really enjoy all of your videos, especially the ones detailing these scientific studies (oxalic treatments, feeding, etc.) alongside your long-time field experience. I met you at our local Jefferson County, AL club meeting last fall and also watched you speak at the AL state conference in the fall. I look forward to more of these videos. Thanks for what you do for the beekeeping community.
Hey! Nice job with the research! I am a beekeeper in Romania and I manage an apiary of 120 colonies. In early spring we are feeding sugar syrup 1:1 and we add 2ml/l Hydrogen Peroxide (30% - same as for human use in treating wounds). After the goat willow is blooming we add no more HP and use only sugar syrup 1:1. I noticed that la larvae are ”more shiny” if we add HP in early spring and the bees seem to bee healthier.
It would be very interesting to see a research (if Lewis is willing to 😁) with 2ml H2O2 added in 1:1 of sugar syrup.
Thanks for all the info you are sharing!!! Keep the good work and ... BUTOAIE PLINE!!! 🤣
You add 2ml of H. Peroxide to how much ml of syrup?
Hi Bob, I'm very happy that you posted this video! So much valuable information regarding the properties of sucrose and the side benefits of Hydrogen Peroxide. I would have been very interested if they had included Pro-Sweet in the study. I think they are (Mann-Lake) mixing HFCS as well as straight sucrose. When we spoke at the Hive Life conference, HFCS is not on the label BUT upon searching for more details I found that it is included in their Pro-Sweet formula. You were spot on, Bob. I'll be watching for the publication of this current research. So, the idea of amending the syrup with H2O2 is on the horizon? Thank you!
Just a follow-up, trying to clear my conscience for recommending ProSweeet: " Dr. Brian Johnson at U.C. Davis, package colonies on new foundation were fed either sucrose syrup or Mann Lake’s ProSweet (50:50 sucrose:HFCS). The colonies grew better on the ProSweet." It's a blend. This is an excerpt (March 2nd 2013).
I'm not exactly sure what researchers are up to but after talking with Lewis it looks like work on that is being done. There's so much to learn.
@@bobbinnie9872 Agreed, so much to learn and it's a pleasure when we come upon new information :) Thanks, Bob!
I wonder what the out come would be with adding some hydrogen peroxide to pollen paddies mix
@@matthewfinney1416 Many have made that comment. I'm not sure but I'll be asking Lewis what he thinks.
Hey Bob we were talking about the Ellis studies this weekend. Marion Ellis is who I was talking about not Jamie Ellis. Thought it was a distinction that needed to be made.
Excellent commentary! I've often considered feeding HFCS due to its low cost but was unsure of its health consequences for the honeybees. This was the answer to a question I've had for many years. Great stuff! Thank you!
Trace chemicals in the HFCS, what chem would cause this effect
I'll forward your question to Lewis.
Ian, I’ve been wondering if it might be glyphosate!
That would show in the sucrose as well, if the case
Yes Ian, it might well show up, but as I mentioned in my question here to Lewis, it should be orders of magnitude lower in the sugar than the corn syrup.
Sugar beats are managed the same way with crop breeding and herbicide tolerance as corn is
Bob, I've seen a couple of comments about missing you in the yard. How about doing a spring hive clean up. Replacing bottom boards with fresh ones, removing frames that weren't up to parr from the year before and were placed on the outside bottom of the lower box for spring removal. Re-leveling hives that may have tilted from winter weather and soft ground.
Things like this are important and I just don't see this on youtube.
Those are good points that are worth sharing. We may be doing a video on preparing to split soon and I'l try to remember to include things like that. Thanks.
Fascinating stuff Bob, it’s a pleasure to watch these. You’ve got the experience and knowledge to ask questions that bring about interesting and applicable discussion. Not many would be able to make as much of these interviews.
Thanks Nathan.
Another great video Bob! Thank you.
Lewis: I am kind of surprised that nobody has suggested glyphosate as the potential chemical in HFCS. I know that that it is often used as a desiccant during cane sugar processing, but I would imagine the levels would be lower by orders of magnitude. Have you considered glyphosate?
I will forward this question to Lewis.
Hey Amy! I haven't looked up what the glyphosate trace limits are in table sugar vs corn syrup, I'll pass it on to my students to consider. Unfortunately, glyphosate is one of the hardest/most expensive pesticides to do residue analysis on so we often have less information on it, so I wouldn't want to speculate too heavily.
Solid content Bob - I've been interested in the chemistry of Honey & floral nectar for some time and have been making pH adjustments to my syrup feedings to better mimic the range naturally present in floral nectar. Combing through the botany literature, H202 is also present in floral nectar. I've taken the mean from the sample data available in the literature and worked back through the math for an approximate average concentration. H2O2 Concentration of floral nectar = (.10 millimoles Concentration) Molar Mass of H2O2 (0.0340147 g/L) (1000) = 34.0147 mg/L. I plan to conduct some field 'experiments' over the next few seasons in this area (after having my calculations, and research interpretations validated). The question I've always wanted the answer to is what is it about a nectar flow that seems to correct many pathogen based apiary challenges in a way that syrup feeding does not. Really enjoy your channel Bob, thanks for the great content.
Thank you and good luck with your research.
A question for Lewis Bartlett: When comparing the hydrogen peroxide levels in honey in brood frames compared to honey in supers, did you account for the rate of degradation of hydrogen peroxide? If the starting level (when nectar is deposited in cell and combined with the enzyme) were the same in both situations (brood vs. stored honey) then the stored honey would slowly lose its hydrogen peroxide to spontaneous degradation (breakdown to water and oxygen). Could it simply be that the brood frame honey is just "younger" than the stored honey and that is why the peroxide level is lower?
Hey Jeanne -
Great question. In this case, we only sampled honey taken from empty drawn frames that we added the start of the experiment, so that we could guarantee the 'honey' (or rather, stored syrup in two of the cases) was fresh and derived from the feed. So for this work, we can rule out a time factor. We also know from sampling honey left 'on the shelf' that the H2O2 content remains fairly stable over time, I have some undergraduates doing projects on that at the moment to better understand what affects the nascent levels during processing and storage on our end.
Very interesting information, Bob! Thank you so much for making this available to us!
Great information, does Mann lakes bulk syrup have HFCS in it or Sucrose?
I've been told it is a blend of both but I've never used it myself.
Would bee interesting to compare Drivert sugar to regular to cane sugar. Drivert is often fed dry which would save a lot of prep and has a different ratio of fructose to sucrose..
I fed a lot of Drivert when I lived on the west coast and had good results with it. It's a lot more expensive though.
Great content Bob and love the shift to highlighting lots of scientific data and the people doing the work! I always took the stance that highly processed products that are bad for us would not translate well to animals in general. Thank you!
Would it be possible to add a food grade gluconic acid to sugar syrup to increase the hydrogen peroxide in the hive?
Thanks to both of you
Question: Like many beekeepers, I use Pro Sweet liquid feed available from many bee feed suppliers. It is 22% fructose, 27% dextrose, 50% sucrose, .5% maltose, .5% higher saccharides. In terms of hydrogen peroxide can you say if this fits more in the camp of sugar water or corn syrup (dextrose, chemically identical to glucose, is derived from corn)?
I honestly couldn't say.
'Dextrose' is the only naturally occurring form of glucose (that is, 'non-dextrose glucose' doesn't occur without synthetic manufacturing, and most people will never encounter it outside of a laboratory), pro-sweet should be more similar to sugar water than corn syrup is.
Lewis: do you see any benefit in feeding prosweet (with inverted sugars I believe) vs plain sucrose syrup?
Great video! I've been trying to find more on this very topic. Thank you for sharing!
Wow, incredibly useful information that will greatly influence colony management practices. The hydrogen peroxide usage/treatment possibilities is exciting. Looking forward to hearing more.
Enjoyed the video. Lots of good information. Thanks so much.
Makes one wonder how beneficial it would be to limit feeding as much as possible due to unknown benefits of honey. Same goes for natural pollen verses patties
So anybody have a link for some good sucrose based bee feed?
👍 thanks
Great Information here. It would be great to find out that a higher concentration of Hydrogen peroxide feed to larvae would be detrimental to Varroa Mites . adding a table spoon or 2 to a gallon of sugar syrup to help control mites may be in the future .
It will be interesting to see what research offers us in the future.
Or into mixing pollen sub patties? That would be some interesting research.
Hey Bob! I have access to a lot of granular fructose. My idea is to mix fructose and glucose(white sugar) and make my own sugar syrup. I have always used pure sugar and never used fructose. Is there anything I should be worried about with fructose? I am also considering adding a bit of hydrogen peroxide to the mix. I am mixing using the 55gal barrel and trolling motor.
Let me know if you have any experience or advice for my syrup mix! Thanks!
I have never tried that but. It could be great. Perhaps try it on a few colonies first.
@@bobbinnie9872 have you ever used just fructose or did you always buy HFCS mixed/liquid?
I have used fructose. I'm just familiar with the granulated.@@EsBeeSanctuary
Its one thing to give the right feed "because it seems to work better"... But understanding WHY makes a lot of difference because this can unlock a whole lot of possibilities for making better feed for our bees. Thank you so much :)
Bob has anyone ever figured out how to put pollen sub or a usable protein into sucrose syrup? I ask not knowing if that would ever be a good thing.
"Mega Bee" has been promoted as being affective in syrup but I've not tried it. megabee.com/
Wondering, if the result would be the same in our climate in our cold climate of 🇨🇦
I would think so.
Hello sir،
sir what is the effect of over feeding of sugar even during flowering season??
or how this effects the Quality or Quantity of honey?
Feeding sugar during a nectar flow can adulterate the finished honey with sugar. It doesn't ruin the honey but most people want the honey to be pure. Feeding can increase the quantity of honey.
Exciting information, thank a lot!!! Any ideas or information if different concentration of sucrose syrup may affect the production of hydrogen peroxide, or what is the optimal ration water : sucrose for optimal production of hydrogen peroxide?
I didn't see any data but my casual observation is that thin syrup seems to cure issues better than thick syrup.
Thanks for the information! When you are measuring out your syrup how do you mix it? When you say 1:1 sugar to water is that one pound sugar to one pound water, or do you mix it by
so many pounds of sugar to so many gallons of water? Thanks so much!
A gallon of water which is 8.34 pounds and a gallon of sugar weigh almost the same so either way works.
Perhaps peroxide will be the next weapon against varoa?
The h2o2 chart at the end begs the question, can we add h2o2 to the syrup to kill shb and any larvae that get into the feeder? Big problem here in HI. Sometimes I feel like I am running a beetle maggot farm in every feeder.
It could work. I don't know how long it would persist.
Bob , you have a down home comfortable way of making me feel like I'm learning something from someone I know. Thanks for the info and videos, B
He is right about the food around the brood. It was explained to me from buyers that wanted me to sell them only honey extracted from brood frames. It was many years ago, before varroa.. and they wanted me to spin their youngest brood with the honey on those frames
Why do we feed humming birds 1 part sugar to 3 parts water and bees 1-1 or 2-1 ? Would not their food source be similar in nature.
I honestly don't know.
If the peroxcide is harmful to beatle larva, would it be just as bad for bee larva?
Bees have naturally made it from the beginning so guessing that's a no ! Hydrogen peroxide in honey is what is helping heal wounds for centuries just no one knew it was HP till recently
Thanks again for the very useful information!
I salute you with respect, Adrian
I wonder how long or how much thin syrup should we feed to obtain a good level of HC ? If I feed on a period of 2 weeks and total of 2 gallons will that have a significant effect of HC and help my bees thru our cold and rude winter in Canada ? Thanks
I honestly don't know an accurate equation on that.
Bob, Does it make any difference if I feed 1:1 or 2:1 during a dearth? Thank you!
1:1 will have a more stimulating effect than 2:1 (2 parts sugar x 1 part water). We use a moderate flow of 1:1 or thinner during a dearth which helps keep the colonies "up".
Hello Bob,How many frames of brood do you want to see in a ten frame hive for honey in April ?
In a single story brood chamber, with an excluder, we like to see 7 and growing fast going into the flow. Any more than that and there could be swarming problems.
Fascinating information! Really goes well with the talk you gave at the Hives for Heroes conference yesterday. It was really cool to meet you!
Thank you.
Vets in the UK would not recommend giving hydrogen peroxide to Dogs to make them sick my wife’s a Vet in the UK. Thanks for the research .
Very interesting video, thanks to both of you
Excellent video. Appreciate the info.
Hello Mr. Binnie,
As always the themes of your youtube videos ar current and well thought out, with lots of usefull information.
Hydrogen peroxide 3 procent is mild antiseptic used on the skin to prevent infection of minor cuts, scarps and burns. HP is also disinfectant that is capable of killing bacteria, viruses, fungi and more. HP is one of the most common bleaching agents ( like oxalic acid). J use HP for disin fection of plastic or styrofoam pots for you g vegetable seedlings. He os very strong oxidizing agent and decomposes rapidly on harmless hydrogen an oxygen. I plan to use HP to disinfect wooden frames and hives. Perhaps research ma go in the direction of using HP to control mite if it is posible.
Great theme. My ssuggestion is if you are able to make viseo on the topic of what varroa feeds of on bees. Its not hemolynf. America have great young researcher Samuel Ramsey in this feald.
Thank you ser.
Store bought High Fructose Corn Syrup is often preserved with Sulphites to prevent fermentation on the shelf. Is the HFCS used in bee keeping also treated with Sulphites? If so could that be the wild card being discussed?
Thanks that was very informative.
So we shouldn't be feeding just sucrose light syrup to expand a healthy brood nest for rotten nectar/pollen year flows (like last year for me)? But perhaps a sucrose syrup with a modest balance of essential amino acids? And maybe shelf stabilized with a natural preservative like hydrogen peroxide... which isn't very shelf stable?
Just caught up on a sleep deficit after brutal a February calving. Now my 🧠 brain will be musing this question/conundrum until 1am tonight.
But thanks for the video anyhow. 😜
Sleep well.
@@bobbinnie9872 Yah well gotta put those 7 semesters of Chem to some use and frankly TV bores me. But my mind keeps going back to a couple things. It would seem to me bees would therefore crave protein more specifically essential amino acids if the well-being of the brood was so paramount to proper hydrogen peroxide level during development. Yet Somerville tells us bees are not skilled at chosing pollen based on protein. It's more the lipid content and pollen size. And second that hydrogen peroxide really has a short half life when exposed to the atmosphere. How do the bees regulate an appropriate level before the brood is capped? Even after it's capped... how long is their dosing strategy continue to benefit?
See what you started in my head?!?!?
Missing those field uploads Bob. It almost feels like we work for you. Here’s to a bountiful, prosperous year.
Spring is here. I've been pondering what video. Thanks.
@@bobbinnie9872 How about cleaning up the hive. Replacing bottom boards, removing bad comb from the year before that's been moved to the bottom outside of the box?
Top information 👌
Thanks👍
With You tubes recent round of Russian media censorship, which followed on the tail of The Canadian Freedom convoy I can no longer dwell on this platform. I am unsubscribing from all my channels and will be useing rumble for my primary video source. Thank you for your videos over the days/weeks/months/years and perhaps someday I'll see you on RUMBLE. Farwell
ρɾσɱσʂɱ 🎉
Would supplementing peroxide have a therapeutic effect on bees?
I believe they're looking at that now.
Interesting there is no feed data. I suppose you can't accurately measure the amount of nectar. I am confident his data from his observations are good. Does he have his datasets accessible so you can run your own queries?
Could a person start putting hydrogen peroxide in pollen patties to slow/stop hive beetle infestation?
I was thinking on a similar line. Would be very helpful to know
An interesting idea. What I would like to know is how much to use and how long before it dissipates.
I'll be asking Lewis what he thinks.
@@bobbinnie9872 i believe they could do a quick trial in the lab with shb to determine efficacy
@@bobbinnie9872 it may dissipate too fast to matter
all HFCS is GMO.... maybe that has something to do with it
Interesting regarding SHB and hydrogen peroxide. It has actually been anecdotally discussed in the past. Here's an example www.beesource.com/threads/maybe-a-fix-for-shb.231078/