Part of the beauty that makes games like MTG so enjoyable is the fact that you can completely customize your deck around the strategy that you like. Kind of like a work of art. Your deck has your soul imprinted in it, because it is the fruit of your decision making. Taking that away would make the game dull IMO.
tcgs in general are retarded. fun but retarded the game is a gamble it does not matter if your using the best meta deck or how good of a player you are the entire game is based on the gamble your hand and what you draw
on face value it might seem like this model solves the pay to win problem you described, but if you think about it, it really doesn't, and is arguably worse for high level competitive play, people will still want the strongest decks to increase their chance of winning. instead of researching cards and constructing a deck and learning the meta and which matchups will be good or bad for you, etc, you instead have to just... buy a ton of random decks (aka, large boosters) and hope you get something good. and then if you do too well, it gets banned, so you have to go buy more all over again. the cynical side of me also thinks this model is designed to prevent a secondary singles market, which the publisher does not make money from. they want you to just buy more sealed product. i also think that part of the beauty of TCGs is that the decks you choose to build, the exact cards you pick, etc, are a form of self expression. i have MTG commander decks that i play today that literally have cards in them i was playing with 25 years ago when i was a kid. yes, some of the cards cost a lot, but they are modular, you can take apart decks and build new ones with cards you already have. most people playing $1000 decks did not spend $1000 all at once to build those decks, they slowly invested over time and/or they got cards when they were much cheaper and had just been printed. i haven't played this game so i don't want to sound too dismissive or critical, it still could be an absolute blast to play, i just don't see this as a replacement or improvement on the TCG concept.
I completely agree. This system actually feels way worse from competitive point of view. And I disagree with the notion that if all decks are random, it's more skill intensive. I would argue it makes this game more luck intensive on an opening a new deck (or like you described, just buying deck after deck until you get lucky and get something insanely synergistic).
Totally an option, except it doesn't get around the idea that I would still be reducing the amount of the overall player base that I could interact with. Basically I'd be taking everybody who's interested in playing Magic the Gathering and saying out of that whole group I'm only going to play with people that are willing to partake in sealed or draft events. Compare that to keyforge and I don't have to Forfeit any of the player base, the entire player base is interested in playing the exact same game I am. Which is why I say for me it's simply the better game.
Absolutely LOVE keyforge , got in when it was first launched and since then haven’t been able to put it down. Good to hear ppl talk about this game such a gem
While I mostly agree, there’s a difference between board games and TCGs (and I’m a fan of both). In a board game you are playing around the constraints of the game, it’s casual, and you’re looking to have fun. There’s nothing on the line. Sure we can play competitively against each other, but in the end it’s all for fun. For a TCG, let’s say MTG, there’s a couple different ways to play. My personal favorite is Commander. That format is designed to play similar to a board game, and it should follow similar rules. It is still competitive, but you’re not playing for anything and you get to socialize and have fun. There should be some sort of rules or constraints set in place for all players, just like a board game. Due to the size of Magics card base , all sorts of different power decks can be created. This means it’s more work for the players to govern themselves as compared to rules printed out for you by a board game. But the upside is the customization of your own deck. You can play goblins, vampires, mostly spells, wizards, dinosaurs , etc. And you get the option to play at different “power levels.” But once you start playing for prizes or for money, it’s expected that players will have as optimized decks as possible regardless of cost. I just wanted to make this distinction because if you are looking for a “board game experience” within a TCG, there are ways to do so where you aren’t being stomped by $1000-$1,500 decks.
Agreed all around, and MTG is probably pretty unique in that way within the TCG space, because it's been around for so long and has such a massive card and player base that sooo many different formats have been developed. Most other games only have 1 or 2 play formats, and both often favor P2W style competitive deck construction. So I guess if I was only going to play magic, and only going to play those formats that eliminated as many P2W factors as possible, and only within my friend group that has agreed to those formats and rules, then that would work. But to me that seems like a lot of effort and footwork on our part just to turn an existing game into a version of that game that works for us. And in doing so, if we don't have a very thorough understanding of the design of the game, we may in fact break certain features of the game. I personally would rather a game that is designed to have these factors eliminated out of the box, removing all of those additional steps for everyone wanting to play. Here's another way I could see it. If I chose to be vegan (and I very much am not), sure I could walk into any old diner and try to order off the menu and try to explain to the staff all of the foods I can't have, the ingredients I want replaced with other ingredients, the way the food needs to be cooked so that it doesn't interact with other foods I don't partake in, etc.. But that's a huge hassle for me and the staff, and frankly I'd feel like an ass putting that on them. What I'd rather do is just go to a vegan restaurant. Just makes everyone's lives easier. People at that diner get to live their lives, and I get to order knowing that in this restaurant all of the rules are already understood and enacted.
@@HowToRollDice I like the vegan metaphor :) The cool thing now-a-days is that both restaurants and MtG have options to help players find what they like. Going with your metaphor, and this could just be my area, but a lot of restaurants are offering vegan/vegetarian items to make that experience easier on people. I’d say commander (and some other existing formats) are serving the same purpose. While they can’t eliminate ALL of the side-effects of being vegan, having a big card market, or a secondary market , they offer a channel for those people to help make the experience better!
I would say it's a little different. I don't think you can say it's pay to win because paying doesn't actually necessarily push you any closer to a win. You could spend $10 for one deck and get a ringer. You could spend $100 on 10 decks and get 10 flops. So all you're paying for is more randomness, which acts as a buffer to the process. It sort of like rolling 1d6 and expecting a 6 because the first 5 rolls weren't a 6. That's not exactly how it works. A properly weighted (randomized) die has the same percent chance of rolling a 6 regardless of the number of times it has or hasn't rolled a 6 prior. But, the cede a point, at the very least, it is much much less of a pay to win system, which I think makes it much much better.
@@HowToRollDice Yes and no. Each roll of a 1d6 is an independent event such that previous rolls have no effect on subsequent rolls, and thus the percentage that a six comes up is the same regardless. Whereas when you purchase a Keyforge deck and get a “bad pull”, so to speak, you are reducing the supply of available “bad” decks, however slightly, such that your chance to get a “good” deck on your next purchase goes up. Again, this is simply a point of clarity; the percentage effect is minuscule to the point of being irrelevant (the publisher claims there are 104 septillion possible deck combinations).
@@HowToRollDice I'm not familiar with the game, but my immediate thought response to your description was "What's stopping whales from just buying up as many randomized decks as possible until they eventually hit a ridiculously good deck?" I could see that system being very effective at getting whales to buy hundreds of decks per year as they continually need to replace their banned super decks.
That concept sounds interesting in theory, but it really doesn't sell me on the prospect of actually engaging with the game. I get a random deck, stare at the cards and form a plan, okay so far, and then what ? I hope for the best ? I'll just have to live with the disappointing deck i opened ? Idk anything about the game, but assuming i get a deck with 3 "bombs" that i actually want to get to, what if i never draw them ? Idk if i need to meet conditions to enable those cards, what if i can't meet them ? What about dead cards or even anti-synergy ? You might argue it doesn't matter because the rest of the players face the same problems, but that either sounds miserable or severely limits the design space to the point that anything kinda works and all that is assuming the balancing is right from the getgo and people who found card x and/or y aren't favored. Does handsize matter at that point ? Maybe, maybe not, hard to tell without knowing the cards and limitations of the randomness. There is a reason why deckbuilding follows somewhat rigid principles and at least imo those are fun, optimization is fun, because pulling off some gameplan you theorycrafted feels good and earned as opposed to just rolling high once. Meta analysis is fun, matchup analysis is fun. Idk, i'd take that anyday over the randomness of getting manascrewed, which this game sounds a lot like from what i'm hearing and that is from someone who gave up on MtG and the like over a decade ago. This might be a solution for people hellbent on playing in tournaments on a budget, while getting as close to TCGs as possible, but i'd wager that market is small. And if i just want fun, what's wrong with Pauper ? Or Drafts ? There are a billion and one ways to limit P2W in your playing group. Again, coming up with the best way to make the most out of your restrictions can be really fun and an engaging process. Yeah, i still get SOME randomness with drafts and draws while playing, but i can control my luck somewhat and make informed decisions instead of relying on pure chance. Trying to find ways within the game rules to punish a player for being lucky just doesn't sound like fun to me, but rather like trading one problem for another.
So, I'll try to respond to as many points as possible, but you've got a ton here, and a may miss a few. I haven't come across a disappointing deck yet, though I am only 6 in. I have 4 more to open up and try. I thought 10 sounded like a nice round number to give it a try at $10 per deck. I'm not entirely sure how the game design or deck generating algorithm works, but out of the 6 decks we've tried so far, we've never come across a card that flat out cannot be played. Maybe there is some sort of code in the machine that states "If card X is included, card Y must also be included" but I'm not sure. I'm sure that is one of the first things they thought of and planned for. There is no max hand size. And there is no mana. There is no "cost" limiter to playing cards. It uses a different mechanic entirely. Optimization, Theorycrafting, and deckbuilding are fun, assuming you can afford to do so. I don't think the outcome of a tabletop game, or really any game for that matter, should be decided by the bank accounts of the players. Just my personal opinion. This system goes a long way to helping that. If I wanted to see if I could best my friends at deckbuilding I would play one of the many deck building card games, where we all have access to numerous cards and the goal of the game is to be better at optimization, theorycrafting, and deckbuilding. Except in this case no one has a distinct advantage, it's level and skill based. As you mentioned there are a lot of ways to play something like magic with some restraints on to limit P2W, but the issue with that is as soon as you leave your bubble of friends that agree to those constraints, that solution falls apart. I can't just walk into a friday night magic session and demand that everyone play by my rules. And I likely wont be winning with my pauper deck either. Now a sealed night or tournament is something different, but again at that point there is usually a heavy buy in cost just for a single event, and this is essentially attempting to introduce a sense of randomness, which keyforge has from the get go. I'll leave you with this, Keyforge was created by the very same creator of MTG, Richard Garfield, who was basically tired of what MTG had become. If you checkout page 30 of the KeyForge rulebook, which is free online, he explains exactly why he created the game. Thanks for in depth response.
@@HowToRollDice My takeaway from this is, that Keyforge is not made for me. I simply see no reason to go back to this kind of game, when i can have much more fun with "normal boardgames" that include all things you'll ever need to play the game at a competitive level, if i desired to do so. Even something like Dominion (which was what got me to drop MtG intitially) for example which already is getting a bad rep after all the years simply presents you with an immediate puzzle for you to solve and, starting player advantage aside, it's more or less an even playing field. The difference being that while the selection of cards can be randomized, i still get to form and execute a plan in the sense that i am responsible for what my deck can and cannot potentially do, which simply isn't the case with Keyforge by design and it bothers me, while someone else could be perfectly fine with that. In my mind, it's like playing Dominion, but instead of buying what you want, you get to draw blindly what to add to your deck. Yes, the card will likely do "something" for you, but that just sounds horribly dull to me. The lottery aspect to competitive play for Keyforge just seems unnecessary and ultimately gimmicky. Milking whales who have the cash to roll decks is just another form of P2W. I don't know the culture around the game and how people treat that aspect and maybe people just show up and bring the deck they rolled and just play, though that would be antithetical to everything i know about competitive players, but again, i'd feel horrible playing a deck that simply isn't working the way i would like it to, even if i am winning on a fluke. At least in other games i can fix that and those times where the deck doesn't work like i expect it to are in the margin of error, which is a problem onto itself, that other systems just solve in better ways imo. Point is, trying to fix P2W on a competitive level at least in this case takes away an aspect from the genre that i like and don't want to miss, while also not really doing away with the initial problem imo. I still applaud the attempt though.
Totally valid points. Also dominion literally invented deck building within board games, so anyone who poo poos it can go fish. And I agree, you can basically boil what I'm saying here down to something like this: A large part of what makes competitive TCGs what they are is that they have that P2W aspect, and all of the good and bad that comes along with that. And for me, the bad simply outweighs the good, and for others the inverse will be true. Like I mentioned, I think for me this is just a larger issue having to do with any activity, that presents itself as a skill based competition, being so heavily influenced by anything outside of skill, in this case pay 2 win. It's the same reason I like the NFL system over the MLB system (granted I'm not a big fan of either sport). The idea that one team can simply go out and spend 5x money to buy better players sort of takes all of the sport out of it. Or if I showed up to an archery contest where one bowman was using old bent arrows and the other was using brand new cutting edge custom made carbon fiber. NASCAR design and spending is capped. F1 Design and spending is capped. As a society we tend to frown upon performance enhancing drugs in skill based competition (though not in non-skill based competition oddly). For me the P2W aspect of TCGs simply fall into this category of "things that seem unsporting." And I'm with you, 90% of the time, I'd much rather just play a board game. But like many others, I occasionally get the hankering for a good TCG style card game, and if I'm looking to get that with as little P2W as possible, I think keyforge is the current best option.
yeah it sucks, but what also sucks is many of those TCGs also have the best gamplay compared to cheaper card games, and thus you end up spending a lot even though you know you are being ripped off. Flesh and blood is the one that recently got it's hooks in me.
MTG is not pay to win, it's pay to compete. You can have the strongest deck in modern, and you'll get rolled by a guy playing merfolk if you don't know the match or how your deck functions.
The whole system of how TCGs / CCGs operate helps to employ thousands of LGS-owners nationwide, so they have my stamp of approval. This is also a luxury item we're talking about. I hope nobody's fooled into thinking Magic: the Gathering cards are a basic human right lol
Part of the beauty that makes games like MTG so enjoyable is the fact that you can completely customize your deck around the strategy that you like. Kind of like a work of art. Your deck has your soul imprinted in it, because it is the fruit of your decision making. Taking that away would make the game dull IMO.
this.
tcgs in general are retarded. fun
but retarded
the game is a gamble
it does not matter if your using the best meta deck or how good of a player you are
the entire game is based on the gamble
your hand and what you draw
on face value it might seem like this model solves the pay to win problem you described, but if you think about it, it really doesn't, and is arguably worse
for high level competitive play, people will still want the strongest decks to increase their chance of winning. instead of researching cards and constructing a deck and learning the meta and which matchups will be good or bad for you, etc, you instead have to just... buy a ton of random decks (aka, large boosters) and hope you get something good. and then if you do too well, it gets banned, so you have to go buy more all over again. the cynical side of me also thinks this model is designed to prevent a secondary singles market, which the publisher does not make money from. they want you to just buy more sealed product.
i also think that part of the beauty of TCGs is that the decks you choose to build, the exact cards you pick, etc, are a form of self expression. i have MTG commander decks that i play today that literally have cards in them i was playing with 25 years ago when i was a kid. yes, some of the cards cost a lot, but they are modular, you can take apart decks and build new ones with cards you already have. most people playing $1000 decks did not spend $1000 all at once to build those decks, they slowly invested over time and/or they got cards when they were much cheaper and had just been printed.
i haven't played this game so i don't want to sound too dismissive or critical, it still could be an absolute blast to play, i just don't see this as a replacement or improvement on the TCG concept.
I completely agree. This system actually feels way worse from competitive point of view. And I disagree with the notion that if all decks are random, it's more skill intensive. I would argue it makes this game more luck intensive on an opening a new deck (or like you described, just buying deck after deck until you get lucky and get something insanely synergistic).
6:16 then what about limited formats? Like sealed or draft?
Totally an option, except it doesn't get around the idea that I would still be reducing the amount of the overall player base that I could interact with. Basically I'd be taking everybody who's interested in playing Magic the Gathering and saying out of that whole group I'm only going to play with people that are willing to partake in sealed or draft events. Compare that to keyforge and I don't have to Forfeit any of the player base, the entire player base is interested in playing the exact same game I am. Which is why I say for me it's simply the better game.
Yo not gonna lie your content actually really interesting. Thanks for being a part of this community😆
Thanks! And thanks for watching. :)
Absolutely LOVE keyforge , got in when it was first launched and since then haven’t been able to put it down. Good to hear ppl talk about this game such a gem
While I mostly agree, there’s a difference between board games and TCGs (and I’m a fan of both).
In a board game you are playing around the constraints of the game, it’s casual, and you’re looking to have fun. There’s nothing on the line. Sure we can play competitively against each other, but in the end it’s all for fun.
For a TCG, let’s say MTG, there’s a couple different ways to play. My personal favorite is Commander. That format is designed to play similar to a board game, and it should follow similar rules. It is still competitive, but you’re not playing for anything and you get to socialize and have fun. There should be some sort of rules or constraints set in place for all players, just like a board game.
Due to the size of Magics card base , all sorts of different power decks can be created. This means it’s more work for the players to govern themselves as compared to rules printed out for you by a board game. But the upside is the customization of your own deck. You can play goblins, vampires, mostly spells, wizards, dinosaurs , etc. And you get the option to play at different “power levels.”
But once you start playing for prizes or for money, it’s expected that players will have as optimized decks as possible regardless of cost.
I just wanted to make this distinction because if you are looking for a “board game experience” within a TCG, there are ways to do so where you aren’t being stomped by $1000-$1,500 decks.
Agreed all around, and MTG is probably pretty unique in that way within the TCG space, because it's been around for so long and has such a massive card and player base that sooo many different formats have been developed. Most other games only have 1 or 2 play formats, and both often favor P2W style competitive deck construction. So I guess if I was only going to play magic, and only going to play those formats that eliminated as many P2W factors as possible, and only within my friend group that has agreed to those formats and rules, then that would work.
But to me that seems like a lot of effort and footwork on our part just to turn an existing game into a version of that game that works for us. And in doing so, if we don't have a very thorough understanding of the design of the game, we may in fact break certain features of the game.
I personally would rather a game that is designed to have these factors eliminated out of the box, removing all of those additional steps for everyone wanting to play.
Here's another way I could see it. If I chose to be vegan (and I very much am not), sure I could walk into any old diner and try to order off the menu and try to explain to the staff all of the foods I can't have, the ingredients I want replaced with other ingredients, the way the food needs to be cooked so that it doesn't interact with other foods I don't partake in, etc.. But that's a huge hassle for me and the staff, and frankly I'd feel like an ass putting that on them. What I'd rather do is just go to a vegan restaurant. Just makes everyone's lives easier. People at that diner get to live their lives, and I get to order knowing that in this restaurant all of the rules are already understood and enacted.
@@HowToRollDice I like the vegan metaphor :) The cool thing now-a-days is that both restaurants and MtG have options to help players find what they like.
Going with your metaphor, and this could just be my area, but a lot of restaurants are offering vegan/vegetarian items to make that experience easier on people.
I’d say commander (and some other existing formats) are serving the same purpose. While they can’t eliminate ALL of the side-effects of being vegan, having a big card market, or a secondary market , they offer a channel for those people to help make the experience better!
I think we've come to a relatively complete agreement here. Well done.
Keyforge is still "pay to win" in the way you describe, the difference being that it is a randomized loot box system now. It's gambling.
I would say it's a little different. I don't think you can say it's pay to win because paying doesn't actually necessarily push you any closer to a win. You could spend $10 for one deck and get a ringer. You could spend $100 on 10 decks and get 10 flops. So all you're paying for is more randomness, which acts as a buffer to the process. It sort of like rolling 1d6 and expecting a 6 because the first 5 rolls weren't a 6. That's not exactly how it works. A properly weighted (randomized) die has the same percent chance of rolling a 6 regardless of the number of times it has or hasn't rolled a 6 prior.
But, the cede a point, at the very least, it is much much less of a pay to win system, which I think makes it much much better.
@@HowToRollDice Yes and no. Each roll of a 1d6 is an independent event such that previous rolls have no effect on subsequent rolls, and thus the percentage that a six comes up is the same regardless. Whereas when you purchase a Keyforge deck and get a “bad pull”, so to speak, you are reducing the supply of available “bad” decks, however slightly, such that your chance to get a “good” deck on your next purchase goes up. Again, this is simply a point of clarity; the percentage effect is minuscule to the point of being irrelevant (the publisher claims there are 104 septillion possible deck combinations).
@@HowToRollDice I'm not familiar with the game, but my immediate thought response to your description was "What's stopping whales from just buying up as many randomized decks as possible until they eventually hit a ridiculously good deck?" I could see that system being very effective at getting whales to buy hundreds of decks per year as they continually need to replace their banned super decks.
The music is really too loud. It was distracting me from what you were trying to say
That concept sounds interesting in theory, but it really doesn't sell me on the prospect of actually engaging with the game. I get a random deck, stare at the cards and form a plan, okay so far, and then what ? I hope for the best ? I'll just have to live with the disappointing deck i opened ? Idk anything about the game, but assuming i get a deck with 3 "bombs" that i actually want to get to, what if i never draw them ? Idk if i need to meet conditions to enable those cards, what if i can't meet them ? What about dead cards or even anti-synergy ? You might argue it doesn't matter because the rest of the players face the same problems, but that either sounds miserable or severely limits the design space to the point that anything kinda works and all that is assuming the balancing is right from the getgo and people who found card x and/or y aren't favored. Does handsize matter at that point ? Maybe, maybe not, hard to tell without knowing the cards and limitations of the randomness.
There is a reason why deckbuilding follows somewhat rigid principles and at least imo those are fun, optimization is fun, because pulling off some gameplan you theorycrafted feels good and earned as opposed to just rolling high once. Meta analysis is fun, matchup analysis is fun. Idk, i'd take that anyday over the randomness of getting manascrewed, which this game sounds a lot like from what i'm hearing and that is from someone who gave up on MtG and the like over a decade ago. This might be a solution for people hellbent on playing in tournaments on a budget, while getting as close to TCGs as possible, but i'd wager that market is small. And if i just want fun, what's wrong with Pauper ? Or Drafts ? There are a billion and one ways to limit P2W in your playing group. Again, coming up with the best way to make the most out of your restrictions can be really fun and an engaging process. Yeah, i still get SOME randomness with drafts and draws while playing, but i can control my luck somewhat and make informed decisions instead of relying on pure chance. Trying to find ways within the game rules to punish a player for being lucky just doesn't sound like fun to me, but rather like trading one problem for another.
So, I'll try to respond to as many points as possible, but you've got a ton here, and a may miss a few.
I haven't come across a disappointing deck yet, though I am only 6 in. I have 4 more to open up and try. I thought 10 sounded like a nice round number to give it a try at $10 per deck.
I'm not entirely sure how the game design or deck generating algorithm works, but out of the 6 decks we've tried so far, we've never come across a card that flat out cannot be played. Maybe there is some sort of code in the machine that states "If card X is included, card Y must also be included" but I'm not sure. I'm sure that is one of the first things they thought of and planned for.
There is no max hand size. And there is no mana. There is no "cost" limiter to playing cards. It uses a different mechanic entirely.
Optimization, Theorycrafting, and deckbuilding are fun, assuming you can afford to do so. I don't think the outcome of a tabletop game, or really any game for that matter, should be decided by the bank accounts of the players. Just my personal opinion. This system goes a long way to helping that.
If I wanted to see if I could best my friends at deckbuilding I would play one of the many deck building card games, where we all have access to numerous cards and the goal of the game is to be better at optimization, theorycrafting, and deckbuilding. Except in this case no one has a distinct advantage, it's level and skill based.
As you mentioned there are a lot of ways to play something like magic with some restraints on to limit P2W, but the issue with that is as soon as you leave your bubble of friends that agree to those constraints, that solution falls apart. I can't just walk into a friday night magic session and demand that everyone play by my rules. And I likely wont be winning with my pauper deck either. Now a sealed night or tournament is something different, but again at that point there is usually a heavy buy in cost just for a single event, and this is essentially attempting to introduce a sense of randomness, which keyforge has from the get go.
I'll leave you with this, Keyforge was created by the very same creator of MTG, Richard Garfield, who was basically tired of what MTG had become. If you checkout page 30 of the KeyForge rulebook, which is free online, he explains exactly why he created the game.
Thanks for in depth response.
@@HowToRollDice My takeaway from this is, that Keyforge is not made for me. I simply see no reason to go back to this kind of game, when i can have much more fun with "normal boardgames" that include all things you'll ever need to play the game at a competitive level, if i desired to do so. Even something like Dominion (which was what got me to drop MtG intitially) for example which already is getting a bad rep after all the years simply presents you with an immediate puzzle for you to solve and, starting player advantage aside, it's more or less an even playing field. The difference being that while the selection of cards can be randomized, i still get to form and execute a plan in the sense that i am responsible for what my deck can and cannot potentially do, which simply isn't the case with Keyforge by design and it bothers me, while someone else could be perfectly fine with that. In my mind, it's like playing Dominion, but instead of buying what you want, you get to draw blindly what to add to your deck. Yes, the card will likely do "something" for you, but that just sounds horribly dull to me.
The lottery aspect to competitive play for Keyforge just seems unnecessary and ultimately gimmicky. Milking whales who have the cash to roll decks is just another form of P2W. I don't know the culture around the game and how people treat that aspect and maybe people just show up and bring the deck they rolled and just play, though that would be antithetical to everything i know about competitive players, but again, i'd feel horrible playing a deck that simply isn't working the way i would like it to, even if i am winning on a fluke. At least in other games i can fix that and those times where the deck doesn't work like i expect it to are in the margin of error, which is a problem onto itself, that other systems just solve in better ways imo.
Point is, trying to fix P2W on a competitive level at least in this case takes away an aspect from the genre that i like and don't want to miss, while also not really doing away with the initial problem imo. I still applaud the attempt though.
Totally valid points. Also dominion literally invented deck building within board games, so anyone who poo poos it can go fish. And I agree, you can basically boil what I'm saying here down to something like this: A large part of what makes competitive TCGs what they are is that they have that P2W aspect, and all of the good and bad that comes along with that. And for me, the bad simply outweighs the good, and for others the inverse will be true.
Like I mentioned, I think for me this is just a larger issue having to do with any activity, that presents itself as a skill based competition, being so heavily influenced by anything outside of skill, in this case pay 2 win. It's the same reason I like the NFL system over the MLB system (granted I'm not a big fan of either sport). The idea that one team can simply go out and spend 5x money to buy better players sort of takes all of the sport out of it. Or if I showed up to an archery contest where one bowman was using old bent arrows and the other was using brand new cutting edge custom made carbon fiber. NASCAR design and spending is capped. F1 Design and spending is capped. As a society we tend to frown upon performance enhancing drugs in skill based competition (though not in non-skill based competition oddly). For me the P2W aspect of TCGs simply fall into this category of "things that seem unsporting."
And I'm with you, 90% of the time, I'd much rather just play a board game. But like many others, I occasionally get the hankering for a good TCG style card game, and if I'm looking to get that with as little P2W as possible, I think keyforge is the current best option.
yeah it sucks, but what also sucks is many of those TCGs also have the best gamplay compared to cheaper card games, and thus you end up spending a lot even though you know you are being ripped off. Flesh and blood is the one that recently got it's hooks in me.
MTG is not pay to win, it's pay to compete. You can have the strongest deck in modern, and you'll get rolled by a guy playing merfolk if you don't know the match or how your deck functions.
The whole system of how TCGs / CCGs operate helps to employ thousands of LGS-owners nationwide, so they have my stamp of approval. This is also a luxury item we're talking about. I hope nobody's fooled into thinking Magic: the Gathering cards are a basic human right lol