For whatever reason, I didn't think of golden skin as like human golden skin, I thought of skin made of gold, like a bunch of living Oscar awards with red eyes.
Ian, you are completely right about Dune. The Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva went around "sowing implant-legends" and practicing "religious engineering," all along the same lines so that when a Bene Gesserit showed up, they'd know what prophecies to "fulfill" and then be able to manipulate the society.
Yep. Which also makes me wonder if that influenced the Lord Ruler. Did he discover Bavadin's meddling when he ascended and did that lead him to squashing all other religions?
Could be worse. Yesterday my cat managed to knock over a bucket full of water from draining an AC unit and in her scramble to run away, knocked my laptop into the floor as well. Fortunately I got to the laptop before the water got to it so all is well.
Dune the bene gesserit. It's usually not full religions instead it's usually prophecies and superstitions that attach themselves to already exist in religion. It referred to as the missionaria protectiva, Or The sisterhood's dark arm of superstition.
The Set say "You may serve in another realm" before killing one of their failed agents. So maybe does Autonomy make some kind of Returned/Fused/Lifeless type creature with some of her agents?
39:00 we know how trell the foreman relates to scadrial because of The Lost Metal. In one of the chapters near when our characters enter Bilming it Is explained that the architecture of the city, Brutalism, come from an architecture of Autonomy's home planet. (Implying the that trell the foreman came to scadrial and spread that style.) Although I have no idea when in scadrial's history this is
The concept of shards being infinite in their capability I think is partly why Autonomy is so dangerous when compared to a shard like Odium. So many conflicts between shards are played out on the scale of thousands upon thousands of years. We know that each variable introduced makes it increasingly difficult for any given shard to be able to gain position over another, so the fact that Autonomy can so heavily distribute cognitive load among these various vessels means that the core personality has a huge advantage when attempting to outmaneuver the other shards. Nearly getting outmaneuvered by Autonomy is a prime example of why though *in theory* Sazed is the most powerful vessel in the cosmere, his limitations as a single being with doubly infinite potential does not bear out to him being able to outmaneuver the other shards.
The men of Red and Gold vs Gold and Red IS a linguistic thing, but it's about the vowel sounds and not how we categorize adjectives. We like hearing a narrow vowel (i, e) sound first and a wide vowel sound (o, u) second eg: tick tock, bing bong, red gold. The reverse sounds awkward eg: tock tick, bong bing, gold red.
Bavadinium is likely present on all planets in the Cosmere in sufficient quantities for at least a few spikes due to the simple fact that Bavadin did not invest a planet, but rather a star. Taldain's star is streaming out Autonomy's investiture (albeit in tiny amounts) nonstop over eons. Integrate a small but constant amount over a long period of time, and that can accrete appreciably.
My weird theory on Discord is that Discord is formed when Harmony, seeing it as his duty, picks up Autonomy at the end of era 3, then people cheer for him in Era 4 when he wants to go planet to planet to gather the rest of the shards to make them whole again. Autonomy's influence on him was what made me think this was the possibility for the meaning but I've always secretly wanted my favorite shard to pull them all together and become Adonalsium reborn.
46:01 Yes Ian the Bene Gesserit do in fact seed religions around so that they can use them in case they get stuck in those locations. Among other things. Y'all should read Dune.
Regarding the power deficit for the Shard in question, if you play chess you know that the queen is the most powerful piece. The queen is stronger than the knight, the bishop, or the rook. That being said, two bishops and a knight (theoretically 3x3 points for a total of nine) going up against a queen (worth nine points), the side with the bishops and the knight is favored with player skill being roughly equal. And the reason is kind of what you guys mentioned: more flexibility in WHERE the pieces can act. Sure, the power in any given place may be limited but the ability for coordinated action at a distance is greater and out performs the stronger individual piece. I think this is that Shard's strategy. More systems, more followers, a greater ability to wage a multi-front "war" and never being, shall we say, "bound" to a single front.
Re: the set's faceless immortals. When I read that part of bands, I interpreted it more as the set had a direct intermediary between them and their God, like the kandra are for Harmony. I didn't really think that there were 'evil kandra'
Trell becoming part of/invested in Scadrial feels similar to Odium becoming invested in Roshar. I also agree the idea that Trelligism being practices is what is allowing/causing this investment in scadrial
This reminded me of the classic White Sand episodes you guys did. Those were so funny and I laughed so hard. And now it's even better because we get to add Evgeni. Also, Red and Gold sounds better.
What would have been really cool is if each of the Faceless Immortals was a random human being inhabited by different avatars of Autonomy. Could have Patji, Trell, Autonomy and whoever else puppeteering them as antagonists in this book which would have been a nice way to introduce their different personalities.
Crackpot theory: What if Kelsier Ascends to an avatar of Autonomy...? He has the whole religion thing already, and there's setup about his goals for Scadrial conflicting with that of Sazed. Sounds plausible, right?
I can see the possibilities. I just don't see Kelsier agreeing to work underneath other people. The ONLY way it could even vaguely work is if Autonomy gave him supreme control over Scadriel, and agreed to not screw excessively with him. I just don't see it overall. But awesome idea.
@@Aldric524 Big agree there. But I feel like if any shard is going to allow someone like that to take the power and take care of a planet, I would be Auotmomy... But I am reaching a bit, seeing how she was shadowing Telsin
Regarding the Men of Gold and Red being Iriali, there is an interesting wob about them. Brandon says "The Iriali story is one you should expect to be continued during the space age of the cosmere, not in current storylines...The further we move in the Cosmere, the more these stories will become relevant. We're moving from the world of them just being cameos into the world of them being small (but important) sub-plots. They will evolve from there." Although there is another wob that downplays any connection between the Irialli and Autobomy. Still food for thought.
Maybe somebody is about to say this, but with Patji what I think is happening is that the Cognitive aspect of the island has picked up various characteristics that have been ascribed by the local religion. I'm skeptical it was sentient, but think along the lines of how Wind's Pleasure could respond to Shallan when she Soulcast it? It's like that, but stronger. So then Autonomy goes in, sees some of her Investiture tied up there, probably pumps a bit more in, so that *now* the island (both physically and the soul of it) is sentient.
Worth pointing out with the surge binders piercing the realms: wind runner oaths give stormlight, making a connection to the spiritual, and radiant oaths restore sanity to Heralds. Both seem like physical realm effects causing a warping of the other realms
Any army made by Autonomy would either be the perfect unified fighting force, or the least controllable set of lone Rangers ever. Sounds like the latter in universe
I think the trells faceless immortals are called that because they can be anyone autonomy spiked and are basically immortal like the radiants are immortal that so long as they have enough proper investiture they can heal and the reason some speak as multiple is because autonomy's pantheons are speaking not bavaden.
I think what happened with the ancient Trell religion in Scadrial is that it was purposefully banned by the Lord Ruler BECUSE he knew it was autonomy. We get from Sazed that Rashek banned all religions after his ascending. That might´ve been in part due to him knowing thanks to the power of the well that there was a third Shard trying to Invest Scadrial. So in the end the religions are different because the lore just changed after all those years
Could the hearts of man influence the way the shard expresses its intent? Like how the people of to share influence the way sprin look in the cognitive realm?
Funnily enough the Connection joke isn't very far since if I remember right, the Surge of Gravitation does do some sort of Connection shenanigans to change the direction. I don't remember if this was a WoB or a line in one of the books though, but either way there's something to what Argent was going for
So I could totally be wrong but I don't think Telsin would have vaporized when she was fully invested, I think it would take a lot more investiture. I would compare an avatar to more like Vin taking in the power at The Well
Hmmm. Okay, so about the perdendicularity needing to be made near a group of metalborn. I think that Autonomy was using the Metalborn to make an artificially high spiritual humidity, making it easier to form a Perpendicularity.
I think that by Investing Sazed, Autonomy was able t make Trellium a native to Scadrial for a while. Mraize says in RoW that Investiture gets heavier the farther away you transport it through the Cognitive Realm. So it doesn´t make much sene that she would be using lots of resources to move Spikes through Shadesmar. Maybe she did at first bringing enough to enact her plans but to have enough to Spike people and make the bomb she probably needed to ake it native.
In my mind autonomy isn’t worried about Harmony at all, she’s trying to get an advantage over the inevitability that is Discord. Discord, at least as she sees it, is most likely to directly oppose her plans for the cosmere, I think.
I'm going to drop a crazy theory: SPOILERS FOR MISTBORN (THE LOST METAL INCLUDED) AND WARBREAKER (Stormlight too): Am I the only one who has noticed that when Autonomy leaves Telsin it turns gray (as it happens in Warbreaker or when Azure uses her sword) and that the "Army of men in gold and red" could be golden statues dressed in red.. .as if they were animated by breath? I don't know if this theory makes sense at allbut I predict that maybe Autonomy has already put its hands on Nalthis and therefore Endowment...
Pretty obvious the men of good and red are the Lannister army. Autonomy galaxyhopped to Westeros, Invested and Connected Cersei, making her an avatar, and made her invade Scadrial as a backup incase Telsin was incompetent.
Allomancer Jak was the first WTCC I've gotten right that everyone on the panel hasn't gotten. I'll give myself a pat on the back for that one. Sidenote: Eric, you should definitely read The Pits of Eltania. It is genuinely funny and doesn't take that long to get through.
@@harveyweir8061 Do people read far into comments without watching the video? I'm not denying they could or would, but I personally don't even remotely understand that. Comments are for DISCUSSING the video (for me). I just don't get it.
13:00 I think Automony's take is somewhat like Ruin's: Ruin believed everyone served ruin, because any act of violence or destruction serves his purposes. Automony's main concern is independence and self-reliance. as long as you are independent (which can also mean 'not united in purpose) then you are ultimately serving Automony, whether you as an individual consider yourself on her side or not.
What if the autonomy shard power well was near the community because the set was creating that investiture by transferring it from their spikes that left folks alive and stole their investiture?
Spoiler-ish for full cosmere. . . . . My thought in reading The Lost Metal with respect to Autonomy, and then more broadly about Rayse and Ati. Possibly Skai or Aona I'm not sure of their disposition. I kept thinking about the shattering and reasoning for the shattering. I know the Coppermind says some reasons were to gain power and the thought it was necessary. Given the results in the Cosmere and all the dead Shards, how bad could the cosmere universe have been? I realize this is likely a large part of the Yolen/Hoid/Dragonsteel stories but it's wild to me how some of these vessels have seemingly just gone off the deep end, possibly a psychotic break. Perhaps it's the Vessel losing their prior self and slowly becoming 100% aligned with the Shard itself. Great Shardcast! Love the new intro and layout!
Perhaps the new perpendicularity was being created in a location surrounded by metalborn because of the repulsive interaction between autonomy stuff and other investiture. Like the presence of the invested Scadrians was keeping the "spiritual humidity" contained and concentrated within that area, and keeping it from dispersing more widely. They're not needed to make the perpendicularity, they just are handy to have around the building site to keep the bricks from randomly evapourating.
I've not read White Sand yet (waiting for the omnibus lol). Is it possible that the foreman Trell was an avatar of Bavadin just being among the people (like the trope of royality dressing as a peasant and going amongst their people)?
Had a thought around 1:11:41 while you all were talking about Autonomy investing Sazed. Is this what has created the shadow Saze? Is Sazed's autonomy over the shards being increased and therefore pushing him out of balance? Maybe this is what causes him to shift to Discord.
On the Men of Gold and Red, I am fully for the Irali theory, and I will say that maybe Authonomy is the one who actually started their Long Journey and the One's religion... maybe they are the troyan horse used by Authonomy to gains hooks and spreading her influence over certain places. On the topic of the Perpendicularity we know by old WoBs that they may spawn in not stable forms also in planets without a resident Shards. Probably Bavadin is emulating that kind of process. Having a decent chunk of Investiture (huge from a magic user prospective but not so much in the broad scale of things) gather in a single place and some sort of trigger. For example we know Therendody's perps are "morbid in nature" and as on Therenody the main form of Investiture is in the Shades... it's not unlikely that a temp Perp could spawn on perp where an large number of Shades gather (probably due a massacre of sort). On the bending effect of someone with enough Investiture have, Susebron describes the world similarly to how Wax described it while he was in possession of the Bands. With his senses able to understand the deep relation between physical and spiritual stuff. I fully expect people like them to enter in the realm of Slivers also without Ascending (formally holding a Shard or using a device that proxies the Ascension as the Well)
Not only did we get Trell from White Sand, we also got Khriss. Is it possible that during a distraction (maybe even when Preservation tricked Ruin) was when Autonomy planted her seed? Small bits of her god metal slowly started building. During each Hero of Ages, those who did find it, and recreate the world, just left it unattainable. Sazed during the Catacandre freed it? The god metal was reachable, and the haze lead the first ppl to it
Y'all should see if you can actually get sponsored by "Tineye" which is a real reverse image search engine lol. I reached out to them to see if there was any connection with the name and they were like "No but we've heard this before" haha
Commenting at 46:00 so apologies if you cover this later. On the "hearts of men" discussion, I think it's probably a Connection thing? Preservation had difficulty working with Kelsier because of his Connection to Ruin. Autonomy becoming the number 1 worshipped deity on the planet might not give her more power, but it probably would give her stronger Connections to the people - limiting the influence (Dis)Harmony has over them?
It’s very simple to me. The vessel of autonomy set up a galactic religion of exceptionalism, and so she invests into people who then use the royal We. The god Trell. Autonomy can experience through them simultaneously or grant them autonomy to use the royal we. At any moment her full attention can can be avatared on any of them.
Didn't those slightly invested hemalurgic spikes that the Sett were experimenting with from regular people have pure or unaligned investiture? Did they make a ton of them and melt them down for the investiture for the pool of investiture?
I really like this, but I thought the scientists were just barely showing that to the mayor? Like, I guess they could have been doing it in secret already, but they seemed to have recently discovered it the same day of Autonomy’s attempted coup.
@@caitlinmoser2253 I read it as something they have been doing for a while, they mention that they've had cases where someone was able to manifest a temporary power from a spike, but it fades. I think they just were hyper focused on getting powers and didn't understand the implications of pure investiture.
When i read about the thing about the perpendicularly i assumed it was cuz the community is literally autonomous not because of the people being metal born.
I’m 100% with Jess and I think Autonomy has corrupted either the Iriali or the original people that the Iriali came from to make her men of gold & red. Hearing you talk about Trelligism and Autonomy seeding that makes me think “The One” religion seems very autonomy too
What if an avatar of autonomy is the equivalent of nightblood. A ton of investiture given a command, in this case the command is the intent of the shard.
I must say that with regards to autonomy being an aspect of divinity, in most western views of God, God is an uncreated being, i.e. the only being who is self existent, so it makes since that God would be "autonomous."
Autonomy would absolutely have a hunger games thing going on somewhere in the Cosmere. Also, what if they were sapping the little-a autonomy of the denizens in the undercity and converting it to pure investiture? The only thing that makes me think this might be a possibility is the mention that Autonomy is creating perpendicularities in ways that seem to defy the currently known workings of the Cosmere. When I'm saying little-a autonomy here, what if it's just the base level investiture of those citizens from Harmony, but the process of sapping it (perhaps by taking away their actual "autonomy" in terms of what they can/can't do there by the rules) converts it in some way and then it is further refined into pure investiture? These are just a couple of probably very wrong thoughts.
I never saw the men of gold and red being faceless immortals. I always thought they were closer to koloss but since modern day koloss don't need spikes it's been forgotten and we associate spikes with kandra. Also trellium probably doesn't come from Scadrial. I also think that pool of investiture was very similar to the unkeyed Dor, if Kelsier can get a bunch it stands to reason a god could get a lot more. As far as the Iriali being loaned from Odium, that's crazy, the Iriali are everywhere making me think they are Autonomies to begin with. Last thing the metal born were in the place the army was coming thru to get the weakened mistings out of the way, the only thing that could stop the army...
I really thought that the men of gold and red were the Iriali/an offshoot of the Iriali. We know that the Iriali have been to otherworlds. What if some of them were left behind on a World controlled by Autonomy only to be later taken over by Autonomy.
Could Trell(Autonomy)'s Faceless Immortals, be the men of Gold and Red? Then they still show up in TLM, and maybe be a hint for era 3 or some other book on another planet.
Also also, ugh I wanna talk with y’all in the moment, did autonomy blind harmony’s ability to see the future? OR was it that he chose ruin over preservation that he lost the ability?
Future sight interferes with future sight. If two shards try to outmanouver or use subterfuge agains one another, its reasonable to conclude that that would mess up Harmony's future sight.
I think the book pretty much says outright that it was Trell/Autonomy's influence that blinded him. There is no reason that being more ruin would blind his future sight when you consider that Atium is using very small amounts of future sight. So ruin is clearly able to access Fortune and Future Sight just as much as Preservation can.
@@sflytal Now that you mention it... Yeah... That's a thing, isn't it? How do the mechanics there work...? Maybe I'm wrong about the future sight conflict, and there's some other mechanic for blinding Harmony. Either that or Preservation's future sight was flat out stronger maybe...? You actually confused me there... Huh...
What if trell shows up as an avatar with all the power that comes with it, poses a threat to preservation, so a hero of ages used the power of the well to defeat him. But his followers maintain the religion
Great podcast guys, cosmere is so damn confusing haha don't know how you guys remember all this. Also I agree about the star wars sequels , enjoyable to watch but flawed story haha
Metalborns themselves ARE already invested. The metals are merely keys that unlock that investiture/manifest it in some form. So regardless of whether or not they use the metal is irrelevant, I think
At 1:06:00 I'm listening you guys questioning what The Cycle means when talking to Marasee with glowing red eyes.... And my thought its---Autonomy is just a MLM trying not to sound like a pyramid scheme---but in the end it is just a scheme and no one ever reaches autonomy or an "autonomous" state. In actuality that if a person does manage to rise higher the more controlled by autonomy person is. There are definitely a few cult religions like this that I can think of.
Regarding the "gold and red" incident. I choose to ignore it. It was always "red and gold" and I don't care what Brandon says or what is written. Also, it's not written in metal so who knows...
Unfortunately I don’t think that would work - it gives away that the GB are in the book and if people have read SA4 but not TLM then it’s not really any different than just calling it Kelsier at that point.
You don't have to call it "The podcast about the Ghostbloods in Lost Metal aka Thaidakar who is also in SA." And we know the Ghostbloods are world hoppers, I wouldn't say it's a stretch to assume they will show up in other books. Ultimately Brandon has said he's going gloves off with the cross world shenanigans moving forward. Their has to be some way/plan to allude towards characters or have a small, acceptable level of spoiler in the title. Otherwise they're doomed to vague podcast titles for feasibly the rest of the series.
To Ian's point about word order, I think that's less human nature and more people who grow up learning English. Other languages don't have the same order preference.
57:00 That prison scene more or less proves that Autonomy has Cognitive Shadows in her service, which Edwarn was to be added to. Why do we not just assume that we saw one of them in a snatched body? 1:07:00 There is no reason the spikes of Trellium could not have been carried to Scadrial conventionally by trade caravan, even theoretically before the Catacendre. 1:26:00 There is going to be war, as Odium gets unstuck. Autonomy would need to join an alliance. That is against her Intent. So she becomes an alliance. Quite clever actually.. 1:32:00 the plants surely do not go to Patji. The magic there must predate the Splintering. 1:36:30 Golden skin says Iriali. Who tells you where they originally came from? For all we know they are spiked ancient Iriali. 1:40:30 Hoid has been on Scadrial for years in Waxillium's employ. Something extremely decicive must have happened on Roshar. 1:56:00 TLR may have kept some constructs in reserve. Contingency plans were kind of his thing. 2:03:00 Do the Ghostbloods know about Rosharan Bindsmiths' ability? 2:09:00 Doesn't it warp reality? Urithiru arguably does warp Shadesmar.
As far as something decisive happening on Roshar.. I think the SLA time skip eludes to an outright victory against todium, or at least a temporary ceasefire. Which could explain Hoids extended stay on Scadrial.
@@oneukum perhaps the outcome of whatever ceasefire occurred allows for Todium to become more invested into shadesmar. With the bulk of his forces now patrolling there instead of on Roshar. Omg...I just realized something.... What if Todium is having like a Spren conquest in shadesmar...
@@oneukum Everyone thinks it is.. until we recieve word from Shadesmar that the entire forces of Odium are razing entire cities to the ground.. and everyone realizes the agreement was flawed. Its my theory anyway.
I can't read Lost Metal yet, but I have it. I've been reading Mistborn with my sister (she's reading it for the first time) and so we are on Well of Ascension. So, we will eventually get to Lost Metal together. I need to reread era 2 before Lost Metal anyway so... All in due time... Until then this episode will wait
No Ian is right - our lingustic patterns have been established over thousands of years and are difficult to un-wire - you guys get a pass for the red and gold stuff lol
My two takes are that 1) Red and Gold sounds better than Gold and Red because the latter is audibly confusing with Golden Red. Your mind has to parse it into what it should be over what it could be. Whereas there is no mental bump getting in the way of Red and Gold so it feels mentally smoother. 2) There may have been a Trell Avatar on Scadriel back when she had no significant interest in Scadriel and it may have been preparing for a much bigger role in the future but it probably wasn't a true force to be reckoned with at the time. But one thing you did not really bring up in the discussion was how the Lord Ruler stamped out all religions but his own. Trell in whatever capacity it had was thoroughly squished by his power with only the Keepers remembering it (in their non-worshippy way) but once Harmony was created Autonomy took notice of the planet in a big way and used the groundwork she had already established (preserved thanks to Sazed himself) though it was currently lacking in power. In short - The Lord Ruler stamped out whatever Autonomy had set up prior.
Your second take is cool. Your first take -- what is "Golden Red"? I could google it, I'm guessing it's a beer? I guess I'm saying I'm unlikely to confuse "Gold and Red" with something I've never heard of. Edited. So a search says it's either a specific color or a type of dog? I'm sure there'd be other possibilities if I searched more. Dunno.
@@Aldric524 My point was simply that 'gold and' sounds like 'golden', not that there is already something called golden red just that putting red before gold works more smoothly phonetically.
For whatever reason, I didn't think of golden skin as like human golden skin, I thought of skin made of gold, like a bunch of living Oscar awards with red eyes.
Same here! Reminded me of Awakened statues from Warbreaker...!
I agree men of metal with red eyes
I think they are like a lifeless or robot army
Ian, you are completely right about Dune. The Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva went around "sowing implant-legends" and practicing "religious engineering," all along the same lines so that when a Bene Gesserit showed up, they'd know what prophecies to "fulfill" and then be able to manipulate the society.
Yep. Which also makes me wonder if that influenced the Lord Ruler. Did he discover Bavadin's meddling when he ascended and did that lead him to squashing all other religions?
Yup. It reminded me of the missionaria protectiva when I read it
Yeah, but also: just read Dune. It's amazing. No reason to hand waive one of the greatest novels of all time.
I always got Leto II (God Emperor) vibes from TLR after reading Hero of Ages.
@@beerbook3933 maybe more Muad’ib, “I see the path to perfection, and you know what? Fuck. That.”
My cat, Aona, turned off my computer and I lost the chapters I typed out. Insert some joke of Devotion vs. Autonomy here. -Eric
Some sort of joke about devotion vs autonomy here
Could be worse. Yesterday my cat managed to knock over a bucket full of water from draining an AC unit and in her scramble to run away, knocked my laptop into the floor as well. Fortunately I got to the laptop before the water got to it so all is well.
The Lost Chapters
Is the joke that a cat wouldn’t ascend to Autonomy?
Dune the bene gesserit. It's usually not full religions instead it's usually prophecies and superstitions that attach themselves to already exist in religion. It referred to as the missionaria protectiva, Or The sisterhood's dark arm of superstition.
The Set say "You may serve in another realm" before killing one of their failed agents. So maybe does Autonomy make some kind of Returned/Fused/Lifeless type creature with some of her agents?
39:00 we know how trell the foreman relates to scadrial because of The Lost Metal. In one of the chapters near when our characters enter Bilming it Is explained that the architecture of the city, Brutalism, come from an architecture of Autonomy's home planet. (Implying the that trell the foreman came to scadrial and spread that style.) Although I have no idea when in scadrial's history this is
The concept of shards being infinite in their capability I think is partly why Autonomy is so dangerous when compared to a shard like Odium. So many conflicts between shards are played out on the scale of thousands upon thousands of years. We know that each variable introduced makes it increasingly difficult for any given shard to be able to gain position over another, so the fact that Autonomy can so heavily distribute cognitive load among these various vessels means that the core personality has a huge advantage when attempting to outmaneuver the other shards. Nearly getting outmaneuvered by Autonomy is a prime example of why though *in theory* Sazed is the most powerful vessel in the cosmere, his limitations as a single being with doubly infinite potential does not bear out to him being able to outmaneuver the other shards.
Listening to TLM when the men of gold and red are described my first thought was the statues from Warbreaker.
Same
Glad I'm not the only one
I thought more of Lightsongs colors. We’re the D’Denir described as gold and red too? I don’t think they were but I could be mistaken
@@zacharyjones4232 Nope, just giant unstoppable automatons.
@@mndrew1 that’s what I thought. Not sure why our fellow worldsingers above thought of the statues themselves when hearing “gold and red”
The men of Red and Gold vs Gold and Red IS a linguistic thing, but it's about the vowel sounds and not how we categorize adjectives. We like hearing a narrow vowel (i, e) sound first and a wide vowel sound (o, u) second eg: tick tock, bing bong, red gold. The reverse sounds awkward eg: tock tick, bong bing, gold red.
Bavadinium is likely present on all planets in the Cosmere in sufficient quantities for at least a few spikes due to the simple fact that Bavadin did not invest a planet, but rather a star. Taldain's star is streaming out Autonomy's investiture (albeit in tiny amounts) nonstop over eons. Integrate a small but constant amount over a long period of time, and that can accrete appreciably.
Oh damn this is a really interesting point! I would love that to be a thing
My weird theory on Discord is that Discord is formed when Harmony, seeing it as his duty, picks up Autonomy at the end of era 3, then people cheer for him in Era 4 when he wants to go planet to planet to gather the rest of the shards to make them whole again. Autonomy's influence on him was what made me think this was the possibility for the meaning but I've always secretly wanted my favorite shard to pull them all together and become Adonalsium reborn.
46:01 Yes Ian the Bene Gesserit do in fact seed religions around so that they can use them in case they get stuck in those locations. Among other things.
Y'all should read Dune.
Regarding the power deficit for the Shard in question, if you play chess you know that the queen is the most powerful piece. The queen is stronger than the knight, the bishop, or the rook. That being said, two bishops and a knight (theoretically 3x3 points for a total of nine) going up against a queen (worth nine points), the side with the bishops and the knight is favored with player skill being roughly equal. And the reason is kind of what you guys mentioned: more flexibility in WHERE the pieces can act. Sure, the power in any given place may be limited but the ability for coordinated action at a distance is greater and out performs the stronger individual piece. I think this is that Shard's strategy. More systems, more followers, a greater ability to wage a multi-front "war" and never being, shall we say, "bound" to a single front.
Re: the set's faceless immortals. When I read that part of bands, I interpreted it more as the set had a direct intermediary between them and their God, like the kandra are for Harmony. I didn't really think that there were 'evil kandra'
Trell becoming part of/invested in Scadrial feels similar to Odium becoming invested in Roshar. I also agree the idea that Trelligism being practices is what is allowing/causing this investment in scadrial
This reminded me of the classic White Sand episodes you guys did. Those were so funny and I laughed so hard. And now it's even better because we get to add Evgeni. Also, Red and Gold sounds better.
RE: Podcast names, I quite like "Moonlight's Mentor" for the one you were discussing at 4:14
This is the best suggestion I've seen and is better than our internal ideas. Thanks a lot, I think this is the winner! -Eric
@@17thShard Aw I'm glad you like it, my pleasure :D
What would have been really cool is if each of the Faceless Immortals was a random human being inhabited by different avatars of Autonomy. Could have Patji, Trell, Autonomy and whoever else puppeteering them as antagonists in this book which would have been a nice way to introduce their different personalities.
Crackpot theory: What if Kelsier Ascends to an avatar of Autonomy...? He has the whole religion thing already, and there's setup about his goals for Scadrial conflicting with that of Sazed. Sounds plausible, right?
When Moonlight first laid out Autonomy's Intent and what she's all about, my first thought was how well it fit Kelsier.
I can see the possibilities. I just don't see Kelsier agreeing to work underneath other people. The ONLY way it could even vaguely work is if Autonomy gave him supreme control over Scadriel, and agreed to not screw excessively with him. I just don't see it overall. But awesome idea.
@@Aldric524 Big agree there. But I feel like if any shard is going to allow someone like that to take the power and take care of a planet, I would be Auotmomy... But I am reaching a bit, seeing how she was shadowing Telsin
Autonomy just wants to be a DM for the world’s largest D&D game. Lol
Ian's face when Eric said "Copper cloud VPN", had me walking up the house. 48:10
Regarding the Men of Gold and Red being Iriali, there is an interesting wob about them. Brandon says "The Iriali story is one you should expect to be continued during the space age of the cosmere, not in current storylines...The further we move in the Cosmere, the more these stories will become relevant. We're moving from the world of them just being cameos into the world of them being small (but important) sub-plots. They will evolve from there."
Although there is another wob that downplays any connection between the Irialli and Autobomy. Still food for thought.
Maybe somebody is about to say this, but with Patji what I think is happening is that the Cognitive aspect of the island has picked up various characteristics that have been ascribed by the local religion. I'm skeptical it was sentient, but think along the lines of how Wind's Pleasure could respond to Shallan when she Soulcast it? It's like that, but stronger. So then Autonomy goes in, sees some of her Investiture tied up there, probably pumps a bit more in, so that *now* the island (both physically and the soul of it) is sentient.
So it's not just me right?
Autonomy wants to be the very best, like no one ever was. To catch them is their real test, to train them is their cause.
Men of gold and red? Autonomous/sapient awakened. Nothing more terrifying and fits all the clues.
Worth pointing out with the surge binders piercing the realms: wind runner oaths give stormlight, making a connection to the spiritual, and radiant oaths restore sanity to Heralds. Both seem like physical realm effects causing a warping of the other realms
Any army made by Autonomy would either be the perfect unified fighting force, or the least controllable set of lone Rangers ever. Sounds like the latter in universe
Hmm... not if they are all automotons (Ie constructs robots lifeless) which the men of gold and red sound like.
I think the trells faceless immortals are called that because they can be anyone autonomy spiked and are basically immortal like the radiants are immortal that so long as they have enough proper investiture they can heal and the reason some speak as multiple is because autonomy's pantheons are speaking not bavaden.
I think what happened with the ancient Trell religion in Scadrial is that it was purposefully banned by the Lord Ruler BECUSE he knew it was autonomy.
We get from Sazed that Rashek banned all religions after his ascending. That might´ve been in part due to him knowing thanks to the power of the well that there was a third Shard trying to Invest Scadrial. So in the end the religions are different because the lore just changed after all those years
Could the hearts of man influence the way the shard expresses its intent? Like how the people of to share influence the way sprin look in the cognitive realm?
Funnily enough the Connection joke isn't very far since if I remember right, the Surge of Gravitation does do some sort of Connection shenanigans to change the direction. I don't remember if this was a WoB or a line in one of the books though, but either way there's something to what Argent was going for
I think that's from the Stormlight Ars Arcanums.
So I could totally be wrong but I don't think Telsin would have vaporized when she was fully invested, I think it would take a lot more investiture. I would compare an avatar to more like Vin taking in the power at The Well
Hmmm. Okay, so about the perdendicularity needing to be made near a group of metalborn. I think that Autonomy was using the Metalborn to make an artificially high spiritual humidity, making it easier to form a Perpendicularity.
I think that by Investing Sazed, Autonomy was able t make Trellium a native to Scadrial for a while.
Mraize says in RoW that Investiture gets heavier the farther away you transport it through the Cognitive Realm. So it doesn´t make much sene that she would be using lots of resources to move Spikes through Shadesmar.
Maybe she did at first bringing enough to enact her plans but to have enough to Spike people and make the bomb she probably needed to ake it native.
In my mind autonomy isn’t worried about Harmony at all, she’s trying to get an advantage over the inevitability that is Discord. Discord, at least as she sees it, is most likely to directly oppose her plans for the cosmere, I think.
46:31 Yes, The Bene Gesserit have the Missionaria Protectiva which is exactly what you describe...
I'm going to drop a crazy theory:
SPOILERS FOR MISTBORN (THE LOST METAL INCLUDED) AND WARBREAKER (Stormlight too):
Am I the only one who has noticed that when Autonomy leaves Telsin it turns gray (as it happens in Warbreaker or when Azure uses her sword) and that the "Army of men in gold and red" could be golden statues dressed in red.. .as if they were animated by breath? I don't know if this theory makes sense at allbut I predict that maybe Autonomy has already put its hands on Nalthis and therefore Endowment...
I think a lot of people agree that the men of Gold and red sound a lot like constructs and therefore lifeless or something similar would work.
Pretty obvious the men of good and red are the Lannister army. Autonomy galaxyhopped to Westeros, Invested and Connected Cersei, making her an avatar, and made her invade Scadrial as a backup incase Telsin was incompetent.
Allomancer Jak was the first WTCC I've gotten right that everyone on the panel hasn't gotten. I'll give myself a pat on the back for that one.
Sidenote: Eric, you should definitely read The Pits of Eltania. It is genuinely funny and doesn't take that long to get through.
great way to spoil WTCC for people watching the video
@@harveyweir8061 Do people read far into comments without watching the video? I'm not denying they could or would, but I personally don't even remotely understand that. Comments are for DISCUSSING the video (for me). I just don't get it.
I do
13:00 I think Automony's take is somewhat like Ruin's: Ruin believed everyone served ruin, because any act of violence or destruction serves his purposes. Automony's main concern is independence and self-reliance. as long as you are independent (which can also mean 'not united in purpose) then you are ultimately serving Automony, whether you as an individual consider yourself on her side or not.
What if the autonomy shard power well was near the community because the set was creating that investiture by transferring it from their spikes that left folks alive and stole their investiture?
Spoiler-ish for full cosmere.
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My thought in reading The Lost Metal with respect to Autonomy, and then more broadly about Rayse and Ati. Possibly Skai or Aona I'm not sure of their disposition. I kept thinking about the shattering and reasoning for the shattering. I know the Coppermind says some reasons were to gain power and the thought it was necessary. Given the results in the Cosmere and all the dead Shards, how bad could the cosmere universe have been? I realize this is likely a large part of the Yolen/Hoid/Dragonsteel stories but it's wild to me how some of these vessels have seemingly just gone off the deep end, possibly a psychotic break. Perhaps it's the Vessel losing their prior self and slowly becoming 100% aligned with the Shard itself.
Great Shardcast! Love the new intro and layout!
Perhaps the new perpendicularity was being created in a location surrounded by metalborn because of the repulsive interaction between autonomy stuff and other investiture. Like the presence of the invested Scadrians was keeping the "spiritual humidity" contained and concentrated within that area, and keeping it from dispersing more widely. They're not needed to make the perpendicularity, they just are handy to have around the building site to keep the bricks from randomly evapourating.
I've not read White Sand yet (waiting for the omnibus lol). Is it possible that the foreman Trell was an avatar of Bavadin just being among the people (like the trope of royality dressing as a peasant and going amongst their people)?
I think yes that is totally possible
Wait so are Spren just a bunch of splinters
Had a thought around 1:11:41 while you all were talking about Autonomy investing Sazed. Is this what has created the shadow Saze? Is Sazed's autonomy over the shards being increased and therefore pushing him out of balance? Maybe this is what causes him to shift to Discord.
On the Men of Gold and Red, I am fully for the Irali theory, and I will say that maybe Authonomy is the one who actually started their Long Journey and the One's religion... maybe they are the troyan horse used by Authonomy to gains hooks and spreading her influence over certain places.
On the topic of the Perpendicularity we know by old WoBs that they may spawn in not stable forms also in planets without a resident Shards. Probably Bavadin is emulating that kind of process.
Having a decent chunk of Investiture (huge from a magic user prospective but not so much in the broad scale of things) gather in a single place and some sort of trigger. For example we know Therendody's perps are "morbid in nature" and as on Therenody the main form of Investiture is in the Shades... it's not unlikely that a temp Perp could spawn on perp where an large number of Shades gather (probably due a massacre of sort).
On the bending effect of someone with enough Investiture have, Susebron describes the world similarly to how Wax described it while he was in possession of the Bands. With his senses able to understand the deep relation between physical and spiritual stuff. I fully expect people like them to enter in the realm of Slivers also without Ascending (formally holding a Shard or using a device that proxies the Ascension as the Well)
ALL SHARDS ARE DRAGONS!!!!!!!!! Im here for it.
Not only did we get Trell from White Sand, we also got Khriss. Is it possible that during a distraction (maybe even when Preservation tricked Ruin) was when Autonomy planted her seed? Small bits of her god metal slowly started building. During each Hero of Ages, those who did find it, and recreate the world, just left it unattainable. Sazed during the Catacandre freed it? The god metal was reachable, and the haze lead the first ppl to it
16:08 Ohh, COSMERE avatars? Yeah, those are Seons in a trenchcoat
Y'all should see if you can actually get sponsored by "Tineye" which is a real reverse image search engine lol.
I reached out to them to see if there was any connection with the name and they were like "No but we've heard this before" haha
Commenting at 46:00 so apologies if you cover this later.
On the "hearts of men" discussion, I think it's probably a Connection thing? Preservation had difficulty working with Kelsier because of his Connection to Ruin. Autonomy becoming the number 1 worshipped deity on the planet might not give her more power, but it probably would give her stronger Connections to the people - limiting the influence (Dis)Harmony has over them?
Great comment! Makes absolutely sense in Cosmere and investiture theory.
What if the Slivers or Avatars function as a pool and B. can travel or focus right to them. Like a lightning rod?
It’s very simple to me. The vessel of autonomy set up a galactic religion of exceptionalism, and so she invests into people who then use the royal We. The god Trell. Autonomy can experience through them simultaneously or grant them autonomy to use the royal we. At any moment her full attention can can be avatared on any of them.
each shard will have a color similar to the 5 colors of magic
Didn't those slightly invested hemalurgic spikes that the Sett were experimenting with from regular people have pure or unaligned investiture? Did they make a ton of them and melt them down for the investiture for the pool of investiture?
I really like this, but I thought the scientists were just barely showing that to the mayor? Like, I guess they could have been doing it in secret already, but they seemed to have recently discovered it the same day of Autonomy’s attempted coup.
@@caitlinmoser2253 I read it as something they have been doing for a while, they mention that they've had cases where someone was able to manifest a temporary power from a spike, but it fades. I think they just were hyper focused on getting powers and didn't understand the implications of pure investiture.
When i read about the thing about the perpendicularly i assumed it was cuz the community is literally autonomous not because of the people being metal born.
I’m 100% with Jess and I think Autonomy has corrupted either the Iriali or the original people that the Iriali came from to make her men of gold & red. Hearing you talk about Trelligism and Autonomy seeding that makes me think “The One” religion seems very autonomy too
What if an avatar of autonomy is the equivalent of nightblood. A ton of investiture given a command, in this case the command is the intent of the shard.
I must say that with regards to autonomy being an aspect of divinity, in most western views of God, God is an uncreated being, i.e. the only being who is self existent, so it makes since that God would be "autonomous."
What if Trell in White Sand is already post-Scadrial? Like he's either done with his job, doing a new job at home, or something else?
Re:: 1:13:04 what if autonomy’s investment of Sazed is causing a separation of Harmony and Discord?
The foreman proved to be.... Trell-evant. You're welcome
Top-Tier
I suspect the metalborn were being used as kinda a magnet?
Autonomy would absolutely have a hunger games thing going on somewhere in the Cosmere.
Also, what if they were sapping the little-a autonomy of the denizens in the undercity and converting it to pure investiture? The only thing that makes me think this might be a possibility is the mention that Autonomy is creating perpendicularities in ways that seem to defy the currently known workings of the Cosmere.
When I'm saying little-a autonomy here, what if it's just the base level investiture of those citizens from Harmony, but the process of sapping it (perhaps by taking away their actual "autonomy" in terms of what they can/can't do there by the rules) converts it in some way and then it is further refined into pure investiture? These are just a couple of probably very wrong thoughts.
I never saw the men of gold and red being faceless immortals. I always thought they were closer to koloss but since modern day koloss don't need spikes it's been forgotten and we associate spikes with kandra. Also trellium probably doesn't come from Scadrial. I also think that pool of investiture was very similar to the unkeyed Dor, if Kelsier can get a bunch it stands to reason a god could get a lot more. As far as the Iriali being loaned from Odium, that's crazy, the Iriali are everywhere making me think they are Autonomies to begin with. Last thing the metal born were in the place the army was coming thru to get the weakened mistings out of the way, the only thing that could stop the army...
was this episode recorded before the official release of TLM/Dragonsteel con or what cuz what eric says at 2:27:20 really confused me 🙃
Yep, it was recorded before. -Eric
I really thought that the men of gold and red were the Iriali/an offshoot of the Iriali. We know that the Iriali have been to otherworlds. What if some of them were left behind on a World controlled by Autonomy only to be later taken over by Autonomy.
Could Trell(Autonomy)'s Faceless Immortals, be the men of Gold and Red? Then they still show up in TLM, and maybe be a hint for era 3 or some other book on another planet.
The description at the end of Bands did not match the men of gold and red to me. -Eric
I would not see why not.
16:26 so Ian is a god now?
Always has been.
Also also, ugh I wanna talk with y’all in the moment, did autonomy blind harmony’s ability to see the future? OR was it that he chose ruin over preservation that he lost the ability?
Future sight interferes with future sight. If two shards try to outmanouver or use subterfuge agains one another, its reasonable to conclude that that would mess up Harmony's future sight.
I think the book pretty much says outright that it was Trell/Autonomy's influence that blinded him. There is no reason that being more ruin would blind his future sight when you consider that Atium is using very small amounts of future sight. So ruin is clearly able to access Fortune and Future Sight just as much as Preservation can.
@@SuperDrawBot This is definitely true and like the way to beat atium is atium or things like electrum so futury stuff with futury stuff...
I just remember thinking that Preservation was able to lay out plans a thousand years in advance and ruin was much more reactive in era 1.
@@sflytal Now that you mention it... Yeah... That's a thing, isn't it? How do the mechanics there work...? Maybe I'm wrong about the future sight conflict, and there's some other mechanic for blinding Harmony. Either that or Preservation's future sight was flat out stronger maybe...? You actually confused me there... Huh...
What if trell shows up as an avatar with all the power that comes with it, poses a threat to preservation, so a hero of ages used the power of the well to defeat him. But his followers maintain the religion
Great podcast guys, cosmere is so damn confusing haha don't know how you guys remember all this. Also I agree about the star wars sequels , enjoyable to watch but flawed story haha
15 years of being in the deep end of the fandom helps, haha. :) Thanks for the kind words! -Eric
@@17thShard haha of course, love all you do! Thanks 🙏
Dare we call these autonomy avatars “autonomous”?
You don't think the one eye of Nalt, glowing in the sky ... is the stupid Angry Sun Thing from the White Sand graphic novel?
I do, I thought we made clear that it seems like a clear allusion to that. -Eric
@@17thShard It is extremely possible that I just missed you saying it.
regarding red and gold, it just has better rhythm. Same with silver and blue.
the set was using excisors on the metalborn to extract their investiture
(this is a joke)
I think Autonomy = Automatons
Lmao incredible sponsored segment
The only solution is Elantrians with lightsabers
You know, it’s real hard to be annoyed with the whole “red and gold” thing when I’ve been 100% behind you on it every time you’ve all said it.
I wonder if that proving yourself is going to replace snapping for how people awaken their allomancy now that autonomy semi invested scadrial
I just realized... We still don't know what the hell Saze did to snapping, do we...?
Metalborns themselves ARE already invested. The metals are merely keys that unlock that investiture/manifest it in some form. So regardless of whether or not they use the metal is irrelevant, I think
What if Trellism is like the religion around the Survivor?
How do you mean? -Eric
I’m getting a dog, and I’m going to name him Sazed.
The best part of this is if he turns out to not be a very Harmonious dog, he can just be Discord! -Eric
@@17thShard indeed
At 1:06:00 I'm listening you guys questioning what The Cycle means when talking to Marasee with glowing red eyes....
And my thought its---Autonomy is just a MLM trying not to sound like a pyramid scheme---but in the end it is just a scheme and no one ever reaches autonomy or an "autonomous" state. In actuality that if a person does manage to rise higher the more controlled by autonomy person is.
There are definitely a few cult religions like this that I can think of.
Regarding the "gold and red" incident. I choose to ignore it. It was always "red and gold" and I don't care what Brandon says or what is written. Also, it's not written in metal so who knows...
Hey, it's not procrastinatation if you PLAN to leave it for the last minute ;)
Ian, you need to read Dune. The entire series.
But only what Frank Herbert wrote. Everything written by Brian Herbert and Kevin are garbage.
The Kelsier spoilercast is easy to name. Just call it Thaidakar (sp?) or even Lord of Scars.
Unfortunately I don’t think that would work - it gives away that the GB are in the book and if people have read SA4 but not TLM then it’s not really any different than just calling it Kelsier at that point.
You don't have to call it "The podcast about the Ghostbloods in Lost Metal aka Thaidakar who is also in SA."
And we know the Ghostbloods are world hoppers, I wouldn't say it's a stretch to assume they will show up in other books.
Ultimately Brandon has said he's going gloves off with the cross world shenanigans moving forward. Their has to be some way/plan to allude towards characters or have a small, acceptable level of spoiler in the title. Otherwise they're doomed to vague podcast titles for feasibly the rest of the series.
People complain about non-existent spoilers in thumbnails even long after a book is out. We do need to be careful here. -Eric
Allomancer Jak my beloved
To Ian's point about word order, I think that's less human nature and more people who grow up learning English. Other languages don't have the same order preference.
When does everyone think Brandon will do a post TLM spoiler stream? Within a week? Month? After SP1?
He was planning a December stream, if I recall correctly. And then another one after SP1
@@_argent thanks argent.
That intro tho
lets go!!!!
57:00 That prison scene more or less proves that Autonomy has Cognitive Shadows in her service, which Edwarn was to be added to. Why do we not just assume that we saw one of them in a snatched body?
1:07:00 There is no reason the spikes of Trellium could not have been carried to Scadrial conventionally by trade caravan, even theoretically before the Catacendre.
1:26:00 There is going to be war, as Odium gets unstuck. Autonomy would need to join an alliance. That is against her Intent. So she becomes an alliance. Quite clever actually..
1:32:00 the plants surely do not go to Patji. The magic there must predate the Splintering.
1:36:30 Golden skin says Iriali. Who tells you where they originally came from? For all we know they are spiked ancient Iriali.
1:40:30 Hoid has been on Scadrial for years in Waxillium's employ. Something extremely decicive must have happened on Roshar.
1:56:00 TLR may have kept some constructs in reserve. Contingency plans were kind of his thing.
2:03:00 Do the Ghostbloods know about Rosharan Bindsmiths' ability?
2:09:00 Doesn't it warp reality? Urithiru arguably does warp Shadesmar.
As far as something decisive happening on Roshar.. I think the SLA time skip eludes to an outright victory against todium, or at least a temporary ceasefire. Which could explain Hoids extended stay on Scadrial.
@@drakedecker4874 Then why is Roshar hard to access?
@@oneukum perhaps the outcome of whatever ceasefire occurred allows for Todium to become more invested into shadesmar. With the bulk of his forces now patrolling there instead of on Roshar. Omg...I just realized something.... What if Todium is having like a Spren conquest in shadesmar...
@@drakedecker4874 How is that not victory to Odium?
@@oneukum Everyone thinks it is.. until we recieve word from Shadesmar that the entire forces of Odium are razing entire cities to the ground.. and everyone realizes the agreement was flawed. Its my theory anyway.
Why isn't trell just named trell the same way some people have the name Jesus or Joshua? People in our world are named after gods all the time.
I can't read Lost Metal yet, but I have it. I've been reading Mistborn with my sister (she's reading it for the first time) and so we are on Well of Ascension. So, we will eventually get to Lost Metal together. I need to reread era 2 before Lost Metal anyway so... All in due time... Until then this episode will wait
We will be waiting for you! -Eric
No Ian is right - our lingustic patterns have been established over thousands of years and are difficult to un-wire - you guys get a pass for the red and gold stuff lol
2:00:00
I wanted to ask you, because you do this on a few videos, what these timestamps you post represent? Just curious. -Eric
@@17thShard if you find and put together my 16 timestamps and 4 actual comments you get adonalsium 2
My two takes are that
1) Red and Gold sounds better than Gold and Red because the latter is audibly confusing with Golden Red. Your mind has to parse it into what it should be over what it could be. Whereas there is no mental bump getting in the way of Red and Gold so it feels mentally smoother.
2) There may have been a Trell Avatar on Scadriel back when she had no significant interest in Scadriel and it may have been preparing for a much bigger role in the future but it probably wasn't a true force to be reckoned with at the time. But one thing you did not really bring up in the discussion was how the Lord Ruler stamped out all religions but his own. Trell in whatever capacity it had was thoroughly squished by his power with only the Keepers remembering it (in their non-worshippy way) but once Harmony was created Autonomy took notice of the planet in a big way and used the groundwork she had already established (preserved thanks to Sazed himself) though it was currently lacking in power.
In short - The Lord Ruler stamped out whatever Autonomy had set up prior.
Your second take is cool. Your first take -- what is "Golden Red"? I could google it, I'm guessing it's a beer? I guess I'm saying I'm unlikely to confuse "Gold and Red" with something I've never heard of.
Edited. So a search says it's either a specific color or a type of dog? I'm sure there'd be other possibilities if I searched more. Dunno.
@@Aldric524 My point was simply that 'gold and' sounds like 'golden', not that there is already something called golden red just that putting red before gold works more smoothly phonetically.