Fun fact: Assuming Eric is checking port alignment with a typical .060" compressed intake gasket, he can simulate the end result of milling that amount off the gasket surfaces by putting the intake on without the gaskets to double check his measurements before milling. He could also put shims between the head and intake to zero in on the target dimension. (If it only needed .045" removed he could try a .015" feeler gauge between the head and intake in each of the 4 corners and see how the port floors aligned.)
So we have been struggling with a sbc 355 with dart heads that have been milled to the max. we use .120 1266 intake gaskets. Blowing smoke out the #8 cylinder only on a fresh build. Noticed china rail to close like .0005. had it cut .060 same problem. i added oil die and the only runner that glowed was #8. Any thing i need to check? we are lost here. Maybe another .060? Did a leak check on cylinder checked valve guides and seal. Also rocker stud. all was new and sealed.
I view gasket matching as a poor man's way of port matching. If both your ports are the same size as the gasket, both the ports must also be the same size. A professional like yourself who really knows what they're doing really makes that final 1-2% difference. Another great video Eric.
How do you put up with the trolls ,they know everything. Eric, you can stop port work because it sounds like everyone can port heads & man .I love your work and personalization. I also know HOW to port stuff, but cant do it because it is an ART .keep up the great work. 90 percent of us love what you do. keep it up
Very informative video, i am not on the level of hp output you are with your heads & intake but in the same situation with my intake to heads. I have ford gt40p heads with .039 head gaskets & i think a speedmaster intake single plain. I have felpro 1250r i take gaskets . I opened heads on the top side & lower side of intake to gasket size sides were good but i can see top of intake gasket when looking through the 4 center runners. I am trying to figure out how much to mill intake sides. I also have a step down from lower intake runner to head from what i can tell about the same distance. Can't figure how to measure them & how much to mill intake sides, i have .200 to .225 on china rails. Any info would be great so as not have to mill more than once. Thank you Jim in Ohio
Thank you again Eric for taking time to share your knowledge. What are your thoughts on the pro Maxx X 200cc plus heads and the speed master 200 plus cc heads?
i did a set of pro topline 220's that were allot taller than a 1206, so i had to take the intake out that far ,, I'm sure whoever finds that intake is gonna think I was an idiot but thats what it took , i had to trim the gasket too ,, the heads weren't as wide as a 1206 so i matched the width to a 1206
Great info, thanks Eric! Others have mentioned epoxy and welding. How far into the manifold runners would you have to go to port match effectively? Is welding feasible? Would epoxy last?
What if the distributor base was too tall already because the intake sat up so tall? Arent the manifolds designed to be compatible with original steel shim gaskets? I would bet that every intake would need to be milled to fit any engine that has composite intake gaskets and/or has been rebuilt and the deck milled....
Jeg's website currently says that they have 10 of these available. Tick Performance in North Carolina has the best price. Summit says it will be shipped from the factory on Jan. 12. What makes it unavailable to me is the price.
Why doesn't the customer just pay to have the intake welded up so you can get him/her a better port match? Wouldn't that be the best outcome, and cost be a wash??
Most people have access to a welder more so than a machinest. Was my thought at first But I'm guessing for Eric it's easier to machine it Also possiblity of warping the intake if you don't skip around while welding it wich would take Eric more time would be my guess
@@db1988 or it could just come down to customer budget constraints. As a maintenance guy with access to a 30 year tool and die man, and many master welders at my disposal sometimes I forget for the average person some of this stuff is cost prohibitive.
Yes they do. When the valve closes the air stops compresses and bounces back into the plenum. Now as it leaves into the plenum it creates negative pressure. This causes the air to flow back into the runner. It will do this around the speed of sound. This wave gets weaker each time this happens. When the wave rushing back into matches the opening of the valve it will create peak pressure rushing into the cylinder. This is why a shorter runner is more for higher rpm. Closer valve opening events and quicker bounce of the pressure wave match up. Longer runner takes longer between the bounce of the wave so longer valve opening events match up. This also apply to exhaust.
@@rizin2213 well this manifold has pretty long runners but they list it to come in at 4000. Seems backwards. So in EFI its the same results even though you are injecting the fuel below? It all has to do with air? Not air/fuel delivery?
@@8mywal8 I wish I knew where I had my notes from about 13 years ago. A guy going to collage for engineering went over alot of the calculation for designing a intake. It was actually one of his school projects. But this wave is moving is moving at around 767mph. So depending on the length it could be tuned for that rpm at a different return. Just as an example say one length is 6in and it is tuned at 6000rpm but let's say it is doing this on the forth return. But you make another 12in long it will be doing this on the second return. Also iirc the diameter plays a roll that when they are larger diameter you also need more volume moving to get a stronger wave. Basically you need to be moving more air to get it to bounce of the valve. Now a carbed intake and a EFI should slightly change it but I don't think it's that much. Because when fuel is in the air it will be slightly denser. Denser materials transfer sound better. 767mph speed of sound in air 3310mph speed of sound in water Sorry I am not an expert on this just know the concept.
@@8mywal8 I do powerline construction. If I ever get on another underground job I'll have to get video of what happens when I hit the tape on a 200ft run of 6in pvc with the other end untapped. It shows basically a slowed down version of what I'm talking about. Be fun to compare a 2in and 6in at the same length.
@@rizin2213 Wow lots of info. Something to definitely study. I have a decent built 434 SBC w/ multi port injection and for some reason they used a RPM Airgap dual plane intake manifold (lots of work and why they chose this???) I was just thinking a open plenum manifold would be better. It seems everyone is using the very tall manifolds these days. It is a street cruiser so I want to make sure and not mess up the drivability characteristics of it.
You CAN'T use a dummy block to do what you just did!!!! The deck height of the block affects your measurements!!! What may work on your dummy block will not be the same on the real block being used with that head & manifold combination!!!!!!
@@WeingartnerRacing head gasket thickness is far more than a few thousands depending on the gaskets being used. ! A 9.0 inch block is still a generic block, not all combinations truly zero deck at 9.0!!!
@@WeingartnerRacing not everybody uses aluminum heads , which typically use a standard thickness gasket. With a casting iron head countless different thicknesses are available which can be .020-.040 thinner than a standard composite gasket. An intake manifold needs to set by degrees, not level off of an existing machine surface. Not all blocks are milled at a true 90 degrees despite what you are told or pay for! The intake surface of a head may not be at angle it's actually advertised at! Therefore you have to start with the actual machined block that will be used!!! Using arbitrary measurements and angles will always get you into trouble !!!
@@Levisnteeshirt1 I typically like Eric's videos but this video he was far from being at the top of his game!! He led people astray by not showing all the key facts . If you didn't question this video then you quite obviously don't understand machinist math!!!
@@WeingartnerRacing I am asking because it looks like i may be heading down the same road with my 336ci Holden engine, Someone got wild with the grinder and i can see the head face on roof, floor, a few walls here and there on the middle 4 ports, the manifold i have they want over 1200 bucks for another, only have the 2 options as taking any more out of the intake ports is not going to be possible. So i thought abouf the epoxy route which i have seen them use before to raise the floors on v8 supercar intake ports. They used a product called "Z Spar" if i remember correctly.
The problem with epoxy is that it can release from the port wall and nothing good comes from that. It sometimes becomes a necessary evil in extreme situations. I’ve seen some good products last a while maybe several years of regular racing, then signs of it releasing become very real. About the only place in an engine that I believe epoxy should be used is on the exterior side of the intake port around the pushrod pinch area. Sometimes it gets very thin in that area and you find that there is plenty of clearance for the pushrod, so you use the epoxy to solidify the thin area.
Fun fact: Assuming Eric is checking port alignment with a typical .060" compressed intake gasket, he can simulate the end result of milling that amount off the gasket surfaces by putting the intake on without the gaskets to double check his measurements before milling. He could also put shims between the head and intake to zero in on the target dimension. (If it only needed .045" removed he could try a .015" feeler gauge between the head and intake in each of the 4 corners and see how the port floors aligned.)
I did just that I first checked it without the gasket.
@@WeingartnerRacing Yep, figured you did, my comment was for your viewers. :`)
So we have been struggling with a sbc 355 with dart heads that have been milled to the max. we use .120 1266 intake gaskets. Blowing smoke out the #8 cylinder only on a fresh build. Noticed china rail to close like .0005. had it cut .060 same problem. i added oil die and the only runner that glowed was #8. Any thing i need to check? we are lost here. Maybe another .060? Did a leak check on cylinder checked valve guides and seal. Also rocker stud. all was new and sealed.
Great video. Thanks for the info. Would love to see more about opening up the plenum. Some tricks etc. or removing a clover leaf etc.
I view gasket matching as a poor man's way of port matching. If both your ports are the same size as the gasket, both the ports must also be the same size.
A professional like yourself who really knows what they're doing really makes that final 1-2% difference.
Another great video Eric.
How do you put up with the trolls ,they know everything. Eric, you can stop port work because it sounds like everyone can port heads & man .I love your work and personalization. I also know HOW to port stuff, but cant do it because it is an ART .keep up the great work. 90 percent of us love what you do. keep it up
How much do you think would be lost if you ran a motor in that scenario? I'm in this exact predicament
Had to mill the intake to align the ports on a SBF a few years ago. Milled the heads to get about 15:1 compression and the ports weren't close.
Very informative video, i am not on the level of hp output you are with your heads & intake but in the same situation with my intake to heads. I have ford gt40p heads with .039 head gaskets & i think a speedmaster intake single plain. I have felpro 1250r i take gaskets . I opened heads on the top side & lower side of intake to gasket size sides were good but i can see top of intake gasket when looking through the 4 center runners. I am trying to figure out how much to mill intake sides. I also have a step down from lower intake runner to head from what i can tell about the same distance. Can't figure how to measure them & how much to mill intake sides, i have .200 to .225 on china rails. Any info would be great so as not have to mill more than once. Thank you Jim in Ohio
Another great video Eric wondering you’ve received my golden intake yet?
Great video Eric. Very good information.
Thank you again Eric for taking time to share your knowledge. What are your thoughts on the pro Maxx X 200cc plus heads and the speed master 200 plus cc heads?
i did a set of pro topline 220's that were allot taller than a 1206, so i had to take the intake out that far ,, I'm sure whoever finds that intake is gonna think I was an idiot but thats what it took , i had to trim the gasket too ,, the heads weren't as wide as a 1206 so i matched the width to a 1206
the engine did run really good and he was happy with it
Great info, thanks Eric! Others have mentioned epoxy and welding. How far into the manifold runners would you have to go to port match effectively? Is welding feasible? Would epoxy last?
Endless amounts of head have been epoxyed for raised ports by legends in the industry. If it worked for them then you should be fine
Thank you Eric great info
I had that same problem with that super vic 2 on my SBC with my AFR 210s.
What about welding the intake to ad material to roof of the intake then grind intake to match
If the intake drops, then what about the distributor height,
Distributor shim or adjustable slip collar distributor.
simple Shim the distributor if u had to
Epoxy the roof of the manifold ports after milling to match the floor? Any thoughts?
What happens if that epoxy chips off?
Why not put alittle epoxy in the top of intake port? Instead of changing the heads. Intake is alot cheaper than heads
I'm by far not a machinist but by milling by 60,000 won't that miss match the bolt holes?
No there is enough room. If there wasn’t you just slot them.
.06 is how u would write it out and he is right just make the hole on intake a little bigger
Da ! High school students have figured this out long time ago . Way overthinking the end result.
High school students are to stupid to figure this out because they are to side tracked with High school drama to understand it
What about building those areas up with epoxy? 😬
Indone the same once and it lasted
Do you use a shim under the distributor to make up the difference in intake height?
What if the distributor base was too tall already because the intake sat up so tall? Arent the manifolds designed to be compatible with original steel shim gaskets? I would bet that every intake would need to be milled to fit any engine that has composite intake gaskets and/or has been rebuilt and the deck milled....
I have the same set up on my car.... dragon slayers with same intake.... had to mill my intake 60 thousands on both sides too....
Jeg's website currently says that they have 10 of these available. Tick Performance in North Carolina has the best price. Summit says it will be shipped from the factory on Jan. 12. What makes it unavailable to me is the price.
That's a lot of work for maybe 2 or 3 HP, if your lucky.
It’s worth more than that.
Why doesn't the customer just pay to have the intake welded up so you can get him/her a better port match? Wouldn't that be the best outcome, and cost be a wash??
Most people have access to a welder more so than a machinest. Was my thought at first
But I'm guessing for Eric it's easier to machine it
Also possiblity of warping the intake if you don't skip around while welding it wich would take Eric more time would be my guess
@@db1988 or it could just come down to customer budget constraints. As a maintenance guy with access to a 30 year tool and die man, and many master welders at my disposal sometimes I forget for the average person some of this stuff is cost prohibitive.
Assume customer heads are not milled and same dimension as your dragon slayers to correct intake alignment?
They have circle templates ;) love the vids
Good video but we are spitting hairs here port matching at it's finest level at this point a camera to see inside the intake to head is needed
Thanks
Do manifolds really effect the RPM operating range? I would think the longer runners would give more torque They list this manifold at 4000-8000
Yes they do. When the valve closes the air stops compresses and bounces back into the plenum. Now as it leaves into the plenum it creates negative pressure. This causes the air to flow back into the runner. It will do this around the speed of sound. This wave gets weaker each time this happens. When the wave rushing back into matches the opening of the valve it will create peak pressure rushing into the cylinder.
This is why a shorter runner is more for higher rpm. Closer valve opening events and quicker bounce of the pressure wave match up.
Longer runner takes longer between the bounce of the wave so longer valve opening events match up.
This also apply to exhaust.
@@rizin2213 well this manifold has pretty long runners but they list it to come in at 4000. Seems backwards. So in EFI its the same results even though you are injecting the fuel below? It all has to do with air? Not air/fuel delivery?
@@8mywal8 I wish I knew where I had my notes from about 13 years ago. A guy going to collage for engineering went over alot of the calculation for designing a intake. It was actually one of his school projects. But this wave is moving is moving at around 767mph. So depending on the length it could be tuned for that rpm at a different return. Just as an example say one length is 6in and it is tuned at 6000rpm but let's say it is doing this on the forth return. But you make another 12in long it will be doing this on the second return. Also iirc the diameter plays a roll that when they are larger diameter you also need more volume moving to get a stronger wave. Basically you need to be moving more air to get it to bounce of the valve.
Now a carbed intake and a EFI should slightly change it but I don't think it's that much. Because when fuel is in the air it will be slightly denser. Denser materials transfer sound better.
767mph speed of sound in air
3310mph speed of sound in water
Sorry I am not an expert on this just know the concept.
@@8mywal8 I do powerline construction. If I ever get on another underground job I'll have to get video of what happens when I hit the tape on a 200ft run of 6in pvc with the other end untapped. It shows basically a slowed down version of what I'm talking about. Be fun to compare a 2in and 6in at the same length.
@@rizin2213 Wow lots of info. Something to definitely study. I have a decent built 434 SBC w/ multi port injection and for some reason they used a RPM Airgap dual plane intake manifold (lots of work and why they chose this???) I was just thinking a open plenum manifold would be better. It seems everyone is using the very tall manifolds these days. It is a street cruiser so I want to make sure and not mess up the drivability characteristics of it.
You CAN'T use a dummy block to do what you just did!!!! The deck height of the block affects your measurements!!! What may work on your dummy block will not be the same on the real block being used with that head & manifold combination!!!!!!
This block is 9.00inch which is the common size. I do usually ask head gasket thickness but that only varies a few thousandths.
@@WeingartnerRacing head gasket thickness is far more than a few thousands depending on the gaskets being used. ! A 9.0 inch block is still a generic block, not all combinations truly zero deck at 9.0!!!
@@WeingartnerRacing not everybody uses aluminum heads , which typically use a standard thickness gasket. With a casting iron head countless different thicknesses are available which can be .020-.040 thinner than a standard composite gasket. An intake manifold needs to set by degrees, not level off of an existing machine surface. Not all blocks are milled at a true 90 degrees despite what you are told or pay for! The intake surface of a head may not be at angle it's actually advertised at! Therefore you have to start with the actual machined block that will be used!!! Using arbitrary measurements and angles will always get you into trouble !!!
you guys friggin kill me ,, this man is at the top of the game . Post your own videos how you do it
@@Levisnteeshirt1 I typically like Eric's videos but this video he was far from being at the top of his game!! He led people astray by not showing all the key facts . If you didn't question this video then you quite obviously don't understand machinist math!!!
could you not just epoxy the manifold and grind to suit the head?
You can.
@@WeingartnerRacing I am asking because it looks like i may be heading down the same road with my 336ci Holden engine, Someone got wild with the grinder and i can see the head face on roof, floor, a few walls here and there on the middle 4 ports, the manifold i have they want over 1200 bucks for another, only have the 2 options as taking any more out of the intake ports is not going to be possible. So i thought abouf the epoxy route which i have seen them use before to raise the floors on v8 supercar intake ports. They used a product called "Z Spar" if i remember correctly.
Some JB weld would have fix that
I don’t use epoxy because eventually it comes out.
@@WeingartnerRacingfair enough if it did come lose it would be to big of a piece to be sucked down into the bore ...maybe
👍🏽🇺🇸👍🏽
I realize epoxy is not ideal, and you wouldn’t do it on a customers heads, but on your own stuff, to solve a problem, it could get a person there.
The problem with epoxy is that it can release from the port wall and nothing good comes from that.
It sometimes becomes a necessary evil in extreme situations.
I’ve seen some good products last a while maybe several years of regular racing, then signs of it releasing become very real.
About the only place in an engine that I believe epoxy should be used is on the exterior side of the intake port around the pushrod pinch area.
Sometimes it gets very thin in that area and you find that there is plenty of clearance for the pushrod, so you use the epoxy to solidify the thin area.
Wouldn’t it have been cheaper or about the same to buy a new manifold than fix the older one with bad grinding?
New manifolds are not plentiful right now. Especially the one Eric is demonstrating.