Ride feel is very important, but maybe there are a thousand different variables other than bicycle design: wheels, tires, saddle, seatpost, handlebar geometry, etc., etc. ……. But sure, it’s definitely all down to the frame.😂
100% ride feel rider, Reynolds 853 tubes made exactly for my measurements by a local builder, not stiff but not noodly parts, latest tires, latest 3D printed saddles. If its stiff, carbon or disposable doesn't make the cut.
Here's the thing: some people might find geeky content like this boring, but I don't, and I want you to know that I appreciate what you do. Great job, Team GCN, and thank you Lukas for sharing your knowledge! Will be joining your membership soon so I can better support you guys!
The last 2 times I bought a bike I ended up with something totally different than what I expected. When I bought a gravel bike, I talked to the local mechanic at the shop and told him basically what I was looking for. We measured the critical dimensions of my old bike. I made an appointment for a week later. He brought in 6 bikes in my size set up to my measurements with as many options as possible. He had a bunch of questions for me to answer about what I wanted. And kept tabs as I made decisions. I rode each one on the same 30 min loop. I Tried 1X,2X, Electronic and mechanical shifting, carbon, steel and aluminum frames. No front shock vs Lauf fork. In the end I decided I liked 2x, grx mechanical shifting, no front shock in terms of mechanicals. The two bikes that felt/ rode the best were the trek checkpoint and the salsa warbird. I went back a week later and tested the warbird and checkpoint back to back with identical tires for 30 minutes each- twice. It was clear the warbird was my favorite. I can tell you why I like 2x, mechanical shifting, and no shocks, but I can’t tell you why the warbird “felt” the best, but it did. Ordered it set up the way I wanted it,and had it about 2 weeks later. Awesome.
I've never known a shop to go that far for a sale. Keep those folks busy because sounds like they earned it. Great shop! Warbird was the OG "modern" "gravel bike". They (Salsa) know how to put them together. I love my Stormchaser
"Ride feel" Interesting, an unquantifiable variable. Lucas's knowledge shines through! The way his eyes move as he speaks reveals how he simplifies his explanations to make them easy for us to understand.
Thought provoking. You're suggesting that we have to understand our needs and desires and often as consumers we don't know how to articulate what we really desire. So many will default to what they see others ride. It has been a fascinating journey for me over the years understanding what it is that I enjoy. Thanks for putting this video together.
I've been through many high end carbon bikes and got rid of some easier than others, but the ones that still stand out to me are the Bianchi Oltre XR4, Orbea Orca, and BMC TeamMachine. With that said, the one bike that I absolutely love riding is a custom steel Speedvagen Rugged Road. It just feels so good and is smooth and fast. It may not be as light or take more work to get it up to speed, but once I'm rolling the ride quality is just so nice that you just want to keep riding. I have two, one in steel and the other titanium, yet I gravitate to the steel one most of the time. My carbon bikes I take out less and less nowadays, unless I need to climb or need out and out responsiveness, which is rare these days. Now, I just want to ride and enjoy.
I happened to be able to ask. I was at M.I.R.A. when Chris Boardman was in the wind tunnel with the 1 hour record bike. Also there was Mike Burrows, who we all know designed the 'Compact frame' for Giant Bicycles. I had all the formulas off Tom Crowther, who was co founder of Mercian Cycles. There was also the 'Eddy Fit' and the 'Lemond Fit'. Clues to this subject is in Bicycle Science, by Frank Whitt, who conducted Cd and Endurance work. I designed a frame, and took my measurements to L.A. Cycles, Lee Cooper in Coventry. Lugs, BBs and tubes were 'Off the shelf'. I could choose the fancy lugs I wanted, and the tubes set from Reynolds. John Atkins' son Darren ( 14 years old at that time ) was still young and made some 'Apprentice piece' frames, which were a real bargain price. Lee Cooper bought the jigs from Dawes in Tyseley. The Super Galaxy frames 1992 - end were made there and by Mike Kowel. The last time I met John was at Hatton Locks Cafe, just west of Warwick. He was 79 years old and still out on his bike. I'm only 20 years younger :-) I haven't got that frame any more. It went missing during my divorce. The next most comfy bike I've got is a Specialized SWorks Alloy from 2004. The Spesh is built up with Ultegra 9spd and Shimano's carbon wheels R80. It is a nice 16.2 lb.
I bought a budget retro steel Creme Echo Solo road bike on looks alone and fell so in love with the ride feel I sold my Canyon AL7RB. Objectively the Canyon surclasses it in every way, but I love riding the Creme so much more. In September I took it to Switserland for two days of riding with lots of kilometers and lots of elevation gain, including the Stelvio AND a lot of unexpected gravel. Epic experience! I wouldn't even swap it for my riding buddy's new Canyon Aeroad.
To confirm Alex's point, I restarted riding in 1998, bought a Fausto Coppi aluminium/carbon forked campag equipped road bike and rode it to the point in 2013 that I realised I was being left behind by folks that were of the same fitness level as me but were riding a new generation of bikes...The world had turned carbon fibre....There after I bought a used mechanical Pinarello Paris...this changed everything. 6 Years later I bought a used F8. Electronic + disc brakes. This kept me going at 30kph during training and keeps me riding to this day....Who knows where the story will lead to next? Maybe an E-bike, when nothing else will help...!
It would have been nice to let the engineer talk about the geometry as well, which is the information always available to customers. Trail, wheelbase, stem length, bars width or other parameters should be quite relevant for the type of bike a customer should choose. And also he mentioned geometry a couple of times as the most important aspect of all.
I think that geometry plays a key role in the rider's position on the bike and therefore aerodynamics. But in the frame taken in isolation I think that we still find the impact of geometry in the stiffness figures: vertical, lateral (BB) or that of the head tube (torsional). But it would have been good if he could develop... I have never seen geometries specifically compared in frame tests.
@@biotyst.8048 I am not saying that geometry has an impact on stiffness or compliance, but it is key in the handling of the bike. A bike with a lower trail will feel more twitchy; and more stable with a higher trail. Longer wheelbase -> more stability, same as longer stem or wider handlebars. And all this figures you can compare among bicycles. In my case, I have a bicycle with trail 63 and wheelbase 997 and another bicycle with 58 and 978 for the same parameters and I know how different the handling is. Therefore that can help me choose a geometry that I like next time (together with stack/reach/seat tube angle for the fit). Stiffness also influences the handling, but to feel this you have to test the bike.
@@March65p Yes, I agree with that. But in practice if we take for example only the "aero" frames the difference in the wheelbase will be 5 mm (max 7) between the different brands (same size), the same for the chainstays. The trail we do not always have the data. So it is very similar. On the other hand for the reactivity of the frame (the handling) there are specific tests of rigidity at the level of the head tube. So it is also quantified and we can compare. The manufacturers monitor the stiffness/weight ratio (stiffness-to-weight). But there too apart from Tour magazin in Germany, no one displays their test results and the protocols are often not the same. However in the interview he says that they have the figures ...
Alex has become my favourite GCN presenter after that amazing Colnago Steelnovo video (yeah and the Ferrari too). He's done a great job here as well. Keep going mate!
I ride a Canyon Grail CF (yes, the Hoverbar one), a 2002 Trek 5200 OCLV (with US Postal livery), and a frankenbike that started life as a '93 Giant Cadex MTB (carbon tubes-aluminum lugged). Each one has its own personality and feel, though clearly each does best under different circumstances. The Canyon is my go-anywhere quickly and comfortably bike; the Trek allows me to go a bit faster on pavement with sentimental echoes from when I was younger (and faster); the frankenbike is my easy chair for when I have all the time in the world to explore where the traction of the tires allow or even hikeabike a bit. Still, the thing I notice most when I switch between bikes, especially when I've ridden one for a couple of weeks is how much I have to reach forward, from most (Trek) to least (Canyon).
Foreword - I think of cycling first as transport, not as sport. Sport cyclists have slightly different priorities to transport cyclists who just want to get A to B. That said... Lukas touched on this briefly but there's a key to bicycle comfort that really needs to be forefront in this discussion. Let's nerd out for a minute on springs. A bicycle is basically just lots of springs in series. From the ground to your sensitive bits we have tires, rims, nipples, spokes, hubs, bearings, axles, frame, seatpost and saddle. All of these are springs and will flex under different loads. The key that must be remembered is that when you have springs of vastly different spring rates (like our tires and frame) the stiffer spring will not flex really at all until the softer spring has completely maxed out its travel. For a better understanding of what's going on we can simplify this situation to just two springs and just imagine a really small soft spring that you can flex with your fingers sat on top of a big truck axle spring. That big axle spring won't flex (noticeably) until you max the travel on the small spring. The same is true of our tires and frame. TLDR upgrade your tires, make sure they're wide enough, make sure they're at the right pressure, and don't worry about your frame. For more nerding out check out a couple of other youtube videos: "Why It's Impossible For Steel Frames To Be More Comfortable Than Aluminium" by CYCLINGABOUT and "Vertical Frame Compliance Is A LIE??" by The Bike Sauce
Cycling About sells 9000 dollar belt drive Aluminum bikes. It's a myth that you can't tell the difference between carbon, steel and Alu on 32mm and smaller road size tires. It's also a myth that seat post length is more important than this. I'd only listen to that guy if you are planning on running super wide tires and touring bikes, even then I'd rather have a proper Audax bike over one of his setups.
Let's say everything you say is true. Why does my 1980s steel frame Giant Superlite ride so much nicer (I'm not saying faster) than brand new aluminium or carbon fibre bikes?
These springs are not in series really, they are all at different phase angles to eachother. There's so much more going on than just tyre width. My road bike with 25c tyres is significantly nicer to ride than my commuter with 40c. The core of ride feel is the frame. Otherwise every bike with the same tyres would feel the same. Which is miles from reality.
@@weatheranddarkness 100% agree. I can literally see the bb of my first road bike move when I put the power down. My carbon bikes with massive bb's, zero flex that I can see
Currently riding a Cannondale Optimo 1, aluminum frame, 105 drive, tektro rim brakes with entry level wheels. Next season Orbea Orca. Carbon frame, carbon wheels, Sram rival etap group set Never really been a roadie but I hope this makes it more enjoyable and pushes me to get out more
fascinating, alex - lukas' insight was really interesting and he communicated it well. "feel" is so hard (impossible?) to quantify, but what lukas was saying about nailing the base geometry and flex characteristics makes a lot of sense. i've never ridden an Ultimate but now i really want to, mainly to compare it to what i am riding now.
I bought the exact model shown, Canyon Ultimate CF SLX 8 Di2. I have other bikes, good bikes, a Vitus ZX-1 Evo and a Cervelo R3, but the Ultimate is my clear favorite - a fabulous ride
As ever, we're told about high end bikes that the pros ride. How about a video about how a bike feels for the average middle aged non-skinny person who averages 13-16mph on a 40-60 mile ride? I know too many people still ride the wrong bike because they think they want lightness or speed, but most of the people I know have accepted that they actually need something more suited to the riding they do. Can we have more videos for these people, or are we in the minority of viewers and those videos would tank?
The entire premise of this video is ride feel and why, which applies to all bikes. Yes, they’ve chosen a high-end bike to highlight this, but if you actually paid attention to the video you’d realize there are other, far more important takeaways than any particular bike. Also, the family of channels frequently posts content that applies to anyone, not just the ultra fit and rich. Ollie, for example, is currently restoring an affordable vintage bike. They have tons of comparisons, explainers, budget builds and buys, and they’re constantly questioning the aims and prices of the overall industry. And finally, perhaps the audience for this sort of content is different, but the average middle-aged person (especially here in America) cannot ride 40-60 miles at a consistent 13-16mph clip - at least not without a motor and sufficient battery, and/or substantial changes to, say, gravity.
Would be interesting to do this video together with GMBN. Despite going as fast as possible is the goal on both sides, the ideas on handling are very different.
Great subject. It is so hard for average consumer to test ride potential bikes due to bike shop availability. I purchased a Canyon Ultimate SL with Ultegra DI2. I was more intent on the Aeroroad but it was more expensive. Once I received my Ultimate, I completely fell in love with it. It has been my favorite bike I have owned and I really can’t explain why.
Bike feel is crucial. I went to buy a bike with 3 criteria, hydraulic disc brakes, 150mm suspension travel + lockout. Of 3 machines tested one felt the same with/without lockout, one too harsh (locked solid) and only one felt Goldilocks right. All identical on paper but it came down to feel and 17 years later the Giant Reign still feels right.
For me it was finding the best components for a reasonable cost. I ended up with a Canyon Endurace CF 7. The lowest model in the Endurace series but its light, comfortable geometry, 105 mechanical. I get on it and it just seems to go without much effort from me and that’s the sweet spot for me
Thought provoking video so many thanks to Alex and team for putting it together. Living not so far from Koblenz, I visited the Canyon factory and tried out the Aeroad, Endurace and Ultimate, I was amazed at the difference in feel between the bikes. Aeroad; fast with an aggressive position. Endurace; compliant/ soft frame, very comfortable. The Ultimate (my choice in the end) sat between these two, feeling very light to ride. Perhaps a bigger shock was the SRAM electronic gears that I'd thought would be a waste of money. So easy to use and so precise. Worth every cent and still love using them today. Canyon bikes look great too so ultimately (sorry) very happy with my choice.
Ride feel, for me, is the whole point. I'm not far of 50 years old, I'm about 100kg's and almost 2m tall so I'm neither light nor aero, I know that i'm never going to be challenging anybody on my bike apart from myself and playing about with my pals. I ride for fun, I ride to feel good, and hence the number one criteria is ride feel. That's why I've just bought myself a Mason Definition: I could've bought lighter, I could've bought something more aero or more efficient at turning power into movement. Instead, I've opted for something that is fast enough to do me justice, but feels great while it's doing it.
But why is "Alan" wearing so much makeup? And yes, keep up the good work, Lukas! This type of content is what keeps me coming back to this channel again and again. Keep it up, guys!
3:30 "geometry" Yep. Bikes are stiff vertically but flimsy laterally. Pedals are spaced rather wide apart, so losses are causes by lateral movements while crappy feel is caused by vertical lack of compliance. The solution? Oval tubes that stiffen laterally while adding compliance vertically.
Yes yes we know you’re upset and crying. Join the club of constant complainers in GCN comments. You’d think GCN owned and ran every bike brand with how much nagging goes on
I had a bike custom made for me in 2014 and it was fine but I never thought I was at my best. Then I decided to splurge and buy a Specialized Roubaix Pro. OMG!!!! Night and day. I LOVE my Roubaix as it feels so good I can ride faster and much longer. I had tried 8 different bikes before settling in that one.
@@thecatsonholiday5932 A lot of it is going to be down to the communication and mutual understanding of the goals. Roubaix are kinda mediocre IME, but there's no question that it could be the perfect combination for certain people. When I worked at a shop that carried spec I noticed quite a spread between sizes in terms of geometry, and a pretty big spread between years of the same model. So again, there's enough variation that certain versions will be perfect for certain people. A well thought out custom frame where the goals are well understood by the rider, and then by the builder, should be able to be better though.
@@thecatsonholiday5932 I had it made at a shop in Montreal called Vélomane. They make their own frames (based on more popular models like Specialized and Canyon) and wheels. Though not a well known company outside of Montreal, the bike has survived many a challenge and a few issues and is still going strong. It is my trainer bike now but every once in a while I take it out on the road just for kicks.
I wish you could have integrated some of the things GCN saw when it tested bike on the efficiency rig at Silverstone. It seemed that test showed that putting watts into the rear wheel was not a simple matter of stiffer is better.
To quantify bike feel just put force sensors on the handlebars and the seat, along with the pedals. Then you can see the all forces acting on the body during a ride.
I bought a used carbon one fits well changed the seat. gets better every time I ride it. & it’s matt black so it looks like it’s doing 200 mph stood. Still 🙌
People keep saying stuff about feel/performance and do you really need a certain bike. But like 90% the reason I want an earoad is because I think it looks so good. Even though an endurace would probably be a lot more comfortable for me....
I believe we as consumers are "told" how a bike feels, we then go ride it with that pre-conception in our heads and our brain adapts our feeling to that of the pre-conception. It's exactly the same as a Radio DJ telling us what a hit record is. It's been going on for years! Advertising and Marketing! I hear it all the time on the social ride, lads sound biting the media when talking about how their bike feels to ride. This happens with tyres, group sets and so on. I'm a bit stubborn in that respect and will take my time to decide how my new bike feels and make my judgement. One thing is for sure though, above say £300 there are no bad bicycles anymore. Generally they're all great to ride.
As much as I agree that a lot of those explanations how a product supposedly feels or behaves is marketing speak, I think that it still highly depends who is telling this information. There are quite reputable sources that are knowledgeable and reliable in their assertions. So this info can be very helpful with a purchasing decision. To some extent I also count GCN (especially Tech) to this category, although I feel like you have to be more and more careful, if it's not just a video that's an ad here. One last thought: some people really need to be told, how some product feels, because they are just too stuck up to decide by themselves if they like a thing or why they would or would not like it.
@colorona8456 absolutely! I wasn't stating my point in a negative sense. More a "it's the way it is" sense! 😊 I first realised what people were saying was media tainted when they started riding tubeless tyres and couldn't quite explain in their own words how they felt so they used sound bites from things they'd heard on TH-cam! 😂 But it goes on and on. A friend of mine tried and tried to convince me electronic groupsets are the best things since sliced bread! But everything he said literally came off the shimano advertising for the groupset he was riding! 😂 I guess you only notice these things if you watch and read a lot about bikes/cycling yourself. 😂 My new bike has electronic gears but to be honest well looked after 105 mechanical gears are fine. The benefits definitely do not out weigh the extra cost.
Really interesting. I had no real knowledge when I bought my bike. I will be trying to get a new one past the 'fun police' soon. So great to have some better insight now:)
I've always taken it that there's a broadly inverse relationship between speed and comfort. Out of my 3 bikes, my folding bike "feels" the most fun and relaxing to ride. also I love the acceleration and edginess of the 20" wheels. It's also by far the slowest.
I like how this engineer responded to the notion that "flex doesn't matter because energy is returned to the frame" with about the same seriousness as a rational person would respond to bigfoot.
@ well for a man which copious amounts of cranks and I assume different lengths , I wonder if a more heel down style would allow you to get more forward / lower as your hip angle would be different. Not a criticism, just different .
@@Gixer750pilot Everyone's crank supply has its limits, including mine! Potentially yes, but I just find this is my style. That's not to say it's the best setup, but more a personal preference.
@ I know. It’s just an observation . I know Si is very similar . I know when I had a bike fit years ago I was the same and was told to drop my heel . To reduce the hip angle .
If you're cruising around above 40kmh you will feel the differences in bikes that are otherwise the same but where one is less draggy. You might notice it when trying to accelerate through 30-40 as well.
@@weatheranddarkness I also really doubt that. An aero frame means a couple of Watts at 40 kph yes, but just lifting up your head/body a slight bit will have way more aero influence than some fancy aero tubing. Yes, on the long fast run Aero will save Energy but how a bike feels is 99,9% about Stiffness, Geometry and Tires. Cheers!
@@S1Carter7 It can be felt, just as sitting up straight can be felt as an easy way to reduce your corner entry speed. The bike's drag is essentially fixed at a given speed. Your posture is not a fixed variable. Look, I'm not saying it's big, but I am saying it's there, it can be felt, and it can actually be measured.
@@weatheranddarkness Aeroad vs. Ultimate, I think you'll only notice the difference when you look at elapsed time and maybe top speed while coasting on a descent. If you're doing something weird like a TT and trying to hold a certain speed, you'd notice one takes more effort. But just regular riding with the same effort, naw.
What never gets mentioned is the disadvantage of thin walled tubes. One can make a stronger and lighter tube, in torsion or bending, by increasing its diameter and reducing its wall thickness. But it then becomes more susceptible to impact loads causing localized damage, such as fractures or dents.
Thanks for this. I have a question about road feel and tires. I come from a much earlier era of 23mm sewups running 120 psi, or even 180 on the track. Back in the mid-1980s, the difference in ride quality (our phrase then) between different steel bikes on those tires was immediately easy to feel. I am as enthused as anyone about the new clincher, tubless, and wide tires, that soak up road noise yet still feel very free running, but I feel they absorb the distinctions between a great frame and group, and a so-so frame and group. Any thoughts?
It feels much better on one's sensitive parts to ride mostly lying down. It feels much faster when you really are much more aero. It feels strange to be called an outsider and 'Not Like Us' when you choose a bike that doesn't hurt you and goes faster.
I really love my current bike; it's easily my favorite bike of all time. But the bike I have now is not the bike I bought. I purchased it on impulse, based entirely on an unreasonable enthusiasm for the brakes, and then, in stages, replaced all the other parts of the bike I decided I didn't like, which is literally everything, except for the frame, fork, and rear derailleur. (No, really; I even replaced the bottom bracket and cables.) Had I been more intentional at the outset about what kind of bike I actually wanted, I would have saved myself a lot of aggravation, time, and money. (My experience is also a case study in the advantages of not buying a bike with integrated components, but that's a topic for another day.)
How about doing a series of blind test rides where the design characteristics of the bikes are hidden somehow (not sure how!) without affecting performance and then let riders judge similarly sized bikes for the subjective factor of “ride feel”. GCN did it for group sets but could it also be done for frames?
Ride feel is important. I have steel, aluminium, titanium and carbon bikes which i love to ride. I did however hate the feel of a kinesis racelight so gave it away. This Canyon conversation was a waste of time
One of the best GCN videos ever, thank you. My journey over 50 years has led me to a titanium gravel bike that is easily the best bike I've ever ridden, can't describe why though....
Hey Alex, your latest sentence about "steady decline due to age" is a subject that would be well worth an extended assessment / video. What happens when we simply "won't be able" to make anymore PR's 😞 on Zwift or IRL. Motivation is fine, but no more badges on Strava is somewhat deflating....
Which is why I ride a 20 year old alloy Colnago. Well... mostly because I can't afford a new one, but knowing it's more sustainable makes me feel a little better 😅
one of the things i keep wondering is; is it possible to have a race bike that is 6.8kg with a 60cm frame? for example, i just acquired a 2022 (2020 generation) SuperSix EVO (Hi-Mod) frame but because of the amount of material used to create the frame; i'm not sure achieving a "pro" weight platform is possible. (even with a wheelset along the lines of Meilenstein or Schmolke).
May I suggest that your video would be so much more helpful if you took a deep dive into what makes an endurance bike comfortable, not into the high end racing bike.
To be honest. I've never test ridden bike I own. That even includes the most expensive I own. Which would most likely seen at you office. As I own Blake Samson's pink and green Orbea Rallon. I did have a different reason for not test riding my road bike. I had to wait untill I swapped almost all the components from the old road frame to the new road frame.
Manufacturers just need to start advertising 3.9% better ride feel. That way we will all know what popular bike we are supposed to buy. About as accurate as the wind tunnel and stiffness tests.
Has Mr. Lucas ever engineered a bike with the geometry and materials that he wanted and for some reason, that doesn't make sense, had that bike fail in its goals?
It's really too bad it's so difficult for us consumers to try out a bike before purchase. It's not just the direct to consumer brands like Canyon. Your local bike shop is unlikely to stock your size either, and there's the variables like tire size and pressure that make a huge difference also. We're kinda stuck reading/watching reviews and hoping for the best.
I agree. During lockdown I decided to buy my dream road bike, but which one to choose? I didn't want to get it horribly wrong and blow my budget (£9K) on something that didn't feel great to ride. So I read as many reviews as possible. Ride feel (as reported by the reviewers) was very important, as were things like reliability, visual appeal, and where the bike was manufactured. After a lot of agonising, I ordered a Colnago C64 from Sigma Sports and haven't regretted it for a moment. For a professional race bike, it is so comfortable that I can ride it for 6+ hours no problem. It feels fast when climbing and stable on twisty descents, and in my eyes looks beautiful. Every ride feels like something special.
So yesterday I picked up a steel tube and tried with all my might to flex it, and sure enough it flexed a little. The I took a stiffer tube and tried with all my might to flex it, but it didn't seem to flex at all. So, clearly I didn't expend nearly so much energy on the second tube. Or..........
She's gone. In July 2024 she said ''After an incredible four and a half years with Global Cycling Network, it's time for me to turn the page to the next chapter in my book.''
steel, carbon, aluminium, titanium -- I wonder what other advances will be made in materials science that will allow the maximization of stiffness, lightness, compliance, and aero in the future
I think their biggest issue is the paint schemes. I think about the only ones that have actually looked good were the black and gold when they launched the updated Grail CFR and the current black sparkle on the CFR Ultimate. Unfortunately the rest lack. And the lower tier models the paint is just horrible.
Before parting with your hard earned money, go to a local dealer and have a test ride on several different bikes that you are looking at and decide on what feels the best and meets your budget. It simple, not rocket science!
Have been riding since 1961. All this refinement in performance / feel is mind-numbing. Reliability of components, especially the bottom bracket and spindle / bearings is what I value most. A well-made metal frame and front forks - steel / aluminum / titanium will last indefinitely. No CF cracking or shattering. This is what gives old dinosaur me riding satisfaction.
The canyon headset is a terrible thing I have 2 customers with the cfr ,both headset bearings failed within 6 months ,1 only lasted 4 .The bike came out of the box with no brakes either .A single point failure on a steerer is a terrible idea in every metric ,and rge dumb tool to tighten is that too .
หลายเดือนก่อน +3
Roadies slowly finding out MTB riders might have some valuable knowledge about bicycles :D
I love my Aeroad, but the seat stays and seat post are so stiff, it kills me on long rides. So I bought an Sworks 🤣. I still love my Aeroad though so it's not going anywhere. I'll still use it for Crits, but for longer rides and road races, it will be the SL8. It's so much more comfortable and light.
This level of nuance in a bike frame is much smaller than the range of rider weight and strength. Unless a manufacturer is going to list the weight of the rider the frame has been designed for its still a shot in the dark. That's why i wont ever buy a high end bike, they flex too much, being designed for riders with 30% less weight and power.
"feel... the forgotten metric no-one is talking about..." ??? What do you mean? There are many who ride solely on 'feel', who don't use power meters or head units because they're a distraction. It's why many don't ride modern bikes that need fat tyres and low tyre pressures to mask some truly terrible riding characteristics. And it's why rim brake bikes are held in such high esteem by those who place a premium on 'feel'. So no, riding on 'feel' isn't forgotten, not even close.
What a load of word salad from the "engineers". None of them are even close. "Ride feel" comes from accurate alignment - and that's something framebuilding contractors in the far-east cannot achieve.
I think the Canyon engineer has a pretty narrow focus: riding fast, maximizing the potential for riding fast. That he rejects out of hand other materials is a bit myopic. I think it was telling that when you asked about other materials the ONLY material property he mentioned was stiffness to weight ratio. There are so many other factors that he completely ignored. It shows he's not necessarily aware of or concerned about what people want in terms of ride quality and what other people want in a bike. Why not talk to a bike maker or builder who has a more global and complete view of what riders might want in terms of ride quality and isn't focused on one narrow group of cyclists? The UK has loads of such builders. Why not talk to them? You've got Mason, Enigma, Fairlight, and loads of custom builders. I'm willing to bet those types of builders have a more global view than the Canyon engineer does.
The question was very specifically, will PERFORMANCE bikes see a rise in other materials. Engineer wasn't narrowly focused. He answered the question that was asked. You just have a problem that question. Looks like you don't need a performance bike. Most of us don't.
@@cjohnson3836, I understood the question, but I still think the answer was narrowly focused. I'll note Bigham and Ganna both rode alloy bikes to UCI world hour records. IMHO, one reason for the engineer's answer could be that the industry's inertia re: frame material is tough to change and/or the industry is in a "local minimum" and can't see other options. As for "performance bike", well, that's not a well-defined term. It's a subjective term, not an objective one.
How much do you focus on ride feel? 🚴❤ What did you think of this conversation with Canyon?
Ride feel is very important, but maybe there are a thousand different variables other than bicycle design: wheels, tires, saddle, seatpost, handlebar geometry, etc., etc. …….
But sure, it’s definitely all down to the frame.😂
100% ride feel rider, Reynolds 853 tubes made exactly for my measurements by a local builder, not stiff but not noodly parts, latest tires, latest 3D printed saddles. If its stiff, carbon or disposable doesn't make the cut.
Just avoid modern bikes and be happy
For me its all about the handlebar tape
1st and foremost the color, as long as it is blue ...
Here's the thing: some people might find geeky content like this boring, but I don't, and I want you to know that I appreciate what you do. Great job, Team GCN, and thank you Lukas for sharing your knowledge! Will be joining your membership soon so I can better support you guys!
Hey, thanks for such a kind comment. That means a lot to us!
The last 2 times I bought a bike I ended up with something totally different than what I expected.
When I bought a gravel bike, I talked to the local mechanic at the shop and told him basically what I was looking for. We measured the critical dimensions of my old bike. I made an appointment for a week later. He brought in 6 bikes in my size set up to my measurements with as many options as possible. He had a bunch of questions for me to answer about what I wanted. And kept tabs as I made decisions. I rode each one on the same 30 min loop. I Tried 1X,2X, Electronic and mechanical shifting, carbon, steel and aluminum frames. No front shock vs Lauf fork. In the end I decided I liked 2x, grx mechanical shifting, no front shock in terms of mechanicals. The two bikes that felt/ rode the best were the trek checkpoint and the salsa warbird. I went back a week later and tested the warbird and checkpoint back to back with identical tires for 30 minutes each- twice. It was clear the warbird was my favorite. I can tell you why I like 2x, mechanical shifting, and no shocks, but I can’t tell you why the warbird “felt” the best, but it did. Ordered it set up the way I wanted it,and had it about 2 weeks later. Awesome.
Great bike shop!!!
I've never known a shop to go that far for a sale. Keep those folks busy because sounds like they earned it. Great shop! Warbird was the OG "modern" "gravel bike". They (Salsa) know how to put them together. I love my Stormchaser
wow, what an experience. Your local bike shop sounds like a great place.
I just know it's complicated, and what you did is the best way to find the bike that rides best for you.
Where’s this bike shop? With that kind of service I’d travel quite far
"Ride feel" Interesting, an unquantifiable variable. Lucas's knowledge shines through! The way his eyes move as he speaks reveals how he simplifies his explanations to make them easy for us to understand.
Thought provoking. You're suggesting that we have to understand our needs and desires and often as consumers we don't know how to articulate what we really desire. So many will default to what they see others ride. It has been a fascinating journey for me over the years understanding what it is that I enjoy. Thanks for putting this video together.
There's nothing like trying different bikes to develop your own understanding.
I've been through many high end carbon bikes and got rid of some easier than others, but the ones that still stand out to me are the Bianchi Oltre XR4, Orbea Orca, and BMC TeamMachine. With that said, the one bike that I absolutely love riding is a custom steel Speedvagen Rugged Road. It just feels so good and is smooth and fast. It may not be as light or take more work to get it up to speed, but once I'm rolling the ride quality is just so nice that you just want to keep riding. I have two, one in steel and the other titanium, yet I gravitate to the steel one most of the time. My carbon bikes I take out less and less nowadays, unless I need to climb or need out and out responsiveness, which is rare these days. Now, I just want to ride and enjoy.
I happened to be able to ask.
I was at M.I.R.A. when Chris Boardman was in the wind tunnel with the 1 hour record bike.
Also there was Mike Burrows, who we all know designed the 'Compact frame' for Giant Bicycles.
I had all the formulas off Tom Crowther, who was co founder of Mercian Cycles.
There was also the 'Eddy Fit' and the 'Lemond Fit'.
Clues to this subject is in Bicycle Science, by Frank Whitt, who conducted Cd and Endurance work.
I designed a frame, and took my measurements to L.A. Cycles, Lee Cooper in Coventry.
Lugs, BBs and tubes were 'Off the shelf'. I could choose the fancy lugs I wanted, and the tubes set from Reynolds.
John Atkins' son Darren ( 14 years old at that time ) was still young and made some 'Apprentice piece' frames, which were a real bargain price.
Lee Cooper bought the jigs from Dawes in Tyseley. The Super Galaxy frames 1992 - end were made there and by Mike Kowel.
The last time I met John was at Hatton Locks Cafe, just west of Warwick. He was 79 years old and still out on his bike. I'm only 20 years younger :-)
I haven't got that frame any more. It went missing during my divorce.
The next most comfy bike I've got is a Specialized SWorks Alloy from 2004.
The Spesh is built up with Ultegra 9spd and Shimano's carbon wheels R80. It is a nice 16.2 lb.
I thought the answer would be color but I'm fine with it being ride feel, that's mellow. 😀
Can't believe I missed that key aspect!!
It's simple: White bikes are lighter, purple bikes are more aero, red bikes are faster and black bikes are stronger.
@@Nonkel_Jef And blue bikes look the best!
I bought a budget retro steel Creme Echo Solo road bike on looks alone and fell so in love with the ride feel I sold my Canyon AL7RB.
Objectively the Canyon surclasses it in every way, but I love riding the Creme so much more.
In September I took it to Switserland for two days of riding with lots of kilometers and lots of elevation gain, including the Stelvio AND a lot of unexpected gravel. Epic experience!
I wouldn't even swap it for my riding buddy's new Canyon Aeroad.
To confirm Alex's point, I restarted riding in 1998, bought a Fausto Coppi aluminium/carbon forked campag equipped road bike and rode it to the point in 2013 that I realised I was being left behind by folks that were of the same fitness level as me but were riding a new generation of bikes...The world had turned carbon fibre....There after I bought a used mechanical Pinarello Paris...this changed everything. 6 Years later I bought a used F8. Electronic + disc brakes. This kept me going at 30kph during training and keeps me riding to this day....Who knows where the story will lead to next? Maybe an E-bike, when nothing else will help...!
It would have been nice to let the engineer talk about the geometry as well, which is the information always available to customers. Trail, wheelbase, stem length, bars width or other parameters should be quite relevant for the type of bike a customer should choose. And also he mentioned geometry a couple of times as the most important aspect of all.
I think that geometry plays a key role in the rider's position on the bike and therefore aerodynamics. But in the frame taken in isolation I think that we still find the impact of geometry in the stiffness figures: vertical, lateral (BB) or that of the head tube (torsional). But it would have been good if he could develop... I have never seen geometries specifically compared in frame tests.
@@biotyst.8048 I am not saying that geometry has an impact on stiffness or compliance, but it is key in the handling of the bike. A bike with a lower trail will feel more twitchy; and more stable with a higher trail. Longer wheelbase -> more stability, same as longer stem or wider handlebars. And all this figures you can compare among bicycles. In my case, I have a bicycle with trail 63 and wheelbase 997 and another bicycle with 58 and 978 for the same parameters and I know how different the handling is. Therefore that can help me choose a geometry that I like next time (together with stack/reach/seat tube angle for the fit). Stiffness also influences the handling, but to feel this you have to test the bike.
@@March65p Yes, I agree with that. But in practice if we take for example only the "aero" frames the difference in the wheelbase will be 5 mm (max 7) between the different brands (same size), the same for the chainstays. The trail we do not always have the data. So it is very similar. On the other hand for the reactivity of the frame (the handling) there are specific tests of rigidity at the level of the head tube. So it is also quantified and we can compare. The manufacturers monitor the stiffness/weight ratio (stiffness-to-weight). But there too apart from Tour magazin in Germany, no one displays their test results and the protocols are often not the same. However in the interview he says that they have the figures ...
Alex has become my favourite GCN presenter after that amazing Colnago Steelnovo video (yeah and the Ferrari too). He's done a great job here as well. Keep going mate!
Thanks very much!
Alex is freaking awesome.
I ride a Canyon Grail CF (yes, the Hoverbar one), a 2002 Trek 5200 OCLV (with US Postal livery), and a frankenbike that started life as a '93 Giant Cadex MTB (carbon tubes-aluminum lugged). Each one has its own personality and feel, though clearly each does best under different circumstances. The Canyon is my go-anywhere quickly and comfortably bike; the Trek allows me to go a bit faster on pavement with sentimental echoes from when I was younger (and faster); the frankenbike is my easy chair for when I have all the time in the world to explore where the traction of the tires allow or even hikeabike a bit. Still, the thing I notice most when I switch between bikes, especially when I've ridden one for a couple of weeks is how much I have to reach forward, from most (Trek) to least (Canyon).
That was a great video, cheers Alex!
Thanks John, glad you enjoyed it
Foreword - I think of cycling first as transport, not as sport. Sport cyclists have slightly different priorities to transport cyclists who just want to get A to B. That said...
Lukas touched on this briefly but there's a key to bicycle comfort that really needs to be forefront in this discussion. Let's nerd out for a minute on springs. A bicycle is basically just lots of springs in series. From the ground to your sensitive bits we have tires, rims, nipples, spokes, hubs, bearings, axles, frame, seatpost and saddle. All of these are springs and will flex under different loads. The key that must be remembered is that when you have springs of vastly different spring rates (like our tires and frame) the stiffer spring will not flex really at all until the softer spring has completely maxed out its travel. For a better understanding of what's going on we can simplify this situation to just two springs and just imagine a really small soft spring that you can flex with your fingers sat on top of a big truck axle spring. That big axle spring won't flex (noticeably) until you max the travel on the small spring. The same is true of our tires and frame.
TLDR upgrade your tires, make sure they're wide enough, make sure they're at the right pressure, and don't worry about your frame.
For more nerding out check out a couple of other youtube videos:
"Why It's Impossible For Steel Frames To Be More Comfortable Than Aluminium" by CYCLINGABOUT
and "Vertical Frame Compliance Is A LIE??" by The Bike Sauce
Cycling About sells 9000 dollar belt drive Aluminum bikes. It's a myth that you can't tell the difference between carbon, steel and Alu on 32mm and smaller road size tires.
It's also a myth that seat post length is more important than this. I'd only listen to that guy if you are planning on running super wide tires and touring bikes, even then I'd rather have a proper Audax bike over one of his setups.
Let's say everything you say is true. Why does my 1980s steel frame Giant Superlite ride so much nicer (I'm not saying faster) than brand new aluminium or carbon fibre bikes?
These springs are not in series really, they are all at different phase angles to eachother. There's so much more going on than just tyre width. My road bike with 25c tyres is significantly nicer to ride than my commuter with 40c. The core of ride feel is the frame. Otherwise every bike with the same tyres would feel the same. Which is miles from reality.
@@weatheranddarkness 100% agree. I can literally see the bb of my first road bike move when I put the power down. My carbon bikes with massive bb's, zero flex that I can see
Currently riding a Cannondale Optimo 1, aluminum frame, 105 drive, tektro rim brakes with entry level wheels.
Next season Orbea Orca. Carbon frame, carbon wheels, Sram rival etap group set
Never really been a roadie but I hope this makes it more enjoyable and pushes me to get out more
fascinating, alex - lukas' insight was really interesting and he communicated it well. "feel" is so hard (impossible?) to quantify, but what lukas was saying about nailing the base geometry and flex characteristics makes a lot of sense. i've never ridden an Ultimate but now i really want to, mainly to compare it to what i am riding now.
I bought the exact model shown, Canyon Ultimate CF SLX 8 Di2. I have other bikes, good bikes, a Vitus ZX-1 Evo and a Cervelo R3, but the Ultimate is my clear favorite - a fabulous ride
Audio here is much improved! Thnx
Good to hear!
As ever, we're told about high end bikes that the pros ride. How about a video about how a bike feels for the average middle aged non-skinny person who averages 13-16mph on a 40-60 mile ride?
I know too many people still ride the wrong bike because they think they want lightness or speed, but most of the people I know have accepted that they actually need something more suited to the riding they do. Can we have more videos for these people, or are we in the minority of viewers and those videos would tank?
Get an Aethos. Put 40mm wheels on it. Ride it forever.
The entire premise of this video is ride feel and why, which applies to all bikes. Yes, they’ve chosen a high-end bike to highlight this, but if you actually paid attention to the video you’d realize there are other, far more important takeaways than any particular bike. Also, the family of channels frequently posts content that applies to anyone, not just the ultra fit and rich. Ollie, for example, is currently restoring an affordable vintage bike. They have tons of comparisons, explainers, budget builds and buys, and they’re constantly questioning the aims and prices of the overall industry. And finally, perhaps the audience for this sort of content is different, but the average middle-aged person (especially here in America) cannot ride 40-60 miles at a consistent 13-16mph clip - at least not without a motor and sufficient battery, and/or substantial changes to, say, gravity.
Comfort and fit are underrated. You can ride faster and further if you are comfortable.
Hand built, bespoke frames. You can't beat them.🇬🇧😃👍
Scam
I would imagine the cost would be prohibitive for most riders if we're talking about carbon fiber frames. Do any builders even do this?
Would be interesting to do this video together with GMBN. Despite going as fast as possible is the goal on both sides, the ideas on handling are very different.
Great subject. It is so hard for average consumer to test ride potential bikes due to bike shop availability. I purchased a Canyon Ultimate SL with Ultegra DI2. I was more intent on the Aeroroad but it was more expensive. Once I received my Ultimate, I completely fell in love with it. It has been my favorite bike I have owned and I really can’t explain why.
Bike feel is crucial. I went to buy a bike with 3 criteria, hydraulic disc brakes, 150mm suspension travel + lockout. Of 3 machines tested one felt the same with/without lockout, one too harsh (locked solid) and only one felt Goldilocks right. All identical on paper but it came down to feel and 17 years later the Giant Reign still feels right.
For me it was finding the best components for a reasonable cost. I ended up with a Canyon Endurace CF 7. The lowest model in the Endurace series but its light, comfortable geometry, 105 mechanical. I get on it and it just seems to go without much effort from me and that’s the sweet spot for me
Thought provoking video so many thanks to Alex and team for putting it together. Living not so far from Koblenz, I visited the Canyon factory and tried out the Aeroad, Endurace and Ultimate, I was amazed at the difference in feel between the bikes. Aeroad; fast with an aggressive position. Endurace; compliant/ soft frame, very comfortable. The Ultimate (my choice in the end) sat between these two, feeling very light to ride. Perhaps a bigger shock was the SRAM electronic gears that I'd thought would be a waste of money. So easy to use and so precise. Worth every cent and still love using them today. Canyon bikes look great too so ultimately (sorry) very happy with my choice.
Ride feel, for me, is the whole point. I'm not far of 50 years old, I'm about 100kg's and almost 2m tall so I'm neither light nor aero, I know that i'm never going to be challenging anybody on my bike apart from myself and playing about with my pals. I ride for fun, I ride to feel good, and hence the number one criteria is ride feel. That's why I've just bought myself a Mason Definition: I could've bought lighter, I could've bought something more aero or more efficient at turning power into movement. Instead, I've opted for something that is fast enough to do me justice, but feels great while it's doing it.
But why is "Alan" wearing so much makeup?
And yes, keep up the good work, Lukas! This type of content is what keeps me coming back to this channel again and again. Keep it up, guys!
3:30 "geometry"
Yep. Bikes are stiff vertically but flimsy laterally. Pedals are spaced rather wide apart, so losses are causes by lateral movements while crappy feel is caused by vertical lack of compliance. The solution? Oval tubes that stiffen laterally while adding compliance vertically.
The ‘most important aspect of bike design’ is to invent a new ‘must have’ item to flog to customers who bought last years ‘must have’ item.
Yes yes we know you’re upset and crying. Join the club of constant complainers in GCN comments. You’d think GCN owned and ran every bike brand with how much nagging goes on
Yes, that’s called “marketing”.
@@Millicente Way to prove your own point. 🤣
@@jazzcatjohn pointing out a problem once isn't nagging but good try
Cynical much?
I love this channel! Very interesting video.
I had a bike custom made for me in 2014 and it was fine but I never thought I was at my best. Then I decided to splurge and buy a Specialized Roubaix Pro. OMG!!!! Night and day. I LOVE my Roubaix as it feels so good I can ride faster and much longer. I had tried 8 different bikes before settling in that one.
Interesting, where was your custom frame made?
@@thecatsonholiday5932 A lot of it is going to be down to the communication and mutual understanding of the goals. Roubaix are kinda mediocre IME, but there's no question that it could be the perfect combination for certain people. When I worked at a shop that carried spec I noticed quite a spread between sizes in terms of geometry, and a pretty big spread between years of the same model. So again, there's enough variation that certain versions will be perfect for certain people. A well thought out custom frame where the goals are well understood by the rider, and then by the builder, should be able to be better though.
@@thecatsonholiday5932 I had it made at a shop in Montreal called Vélomane. They make their own frames (based on more popular models like Specialized and Canyon) and wheels. Though not a well known company outside of Montreal, the bike has survived many a challenge and a few issues and is still going strong. It is my trainer bike now but every once in a while I take it out on the road just for kicks.
Fun to hear about the way an engineer thinks about bike design. Thanks for this video.
I wish you could have integrated some of the things GCN saw when it tested bike on the efficiency rig at Silverstone. It seemed that test showed that putting watts into the rear wheel was not a simple matter of stiffer is better.
To quantify bike feel just put force sensors on the handlebars and the seat, along with the pedals. Then you can see the all forces acting on the body during a ride.
I bought a used carbon one fits well changed the seat. gets better every time I ride it.
& it’s matt black so it looks like it’s doing 200 mph stood. Still 🙌
People keep saying stuff about feel/performance and do you really need a certain bike. But like 90% the reason I want an earoad is because I think it looks so good. Even though an endurace would probably be a lot more comfortable for me....
I believe we as consumers are "told" how a bike feels, we then go ride it with that pre-conception in our heads and our brain adapts our feeling to that of the pre-conception. It's exactly the same as a Radio DJ telling us what a hit record is. It's been going on for years! Advertising and Marketing! I hear it all the time on the social ride, lads sound biting the media when talking about how their bike feels to ride. This happens with tyres, group sets and so on. I'm a bit stubborn in that respect and will take my time to decide how my new bike feels and make my judgement. One thing is for sure though, above say £300 there are no bad bicycles anymore. Generally they're all great to ride.
As much as I agree that a lot of those explanations how a product supposedly feels or behaves is marketing speak, I think that it still highly depends who is telling this information.
There are quite reputable sources that are knowledgeable and reliable in their assertions. So this info can be very helpful with a purchasing decision.
To some extent I also count GCN (especially Tech) to this category, although I feel like you have to be more and more careful, if it's not just a video that's an ad here.
One last thought: some people really need to be told, how some product feels, because they are just too stuck up to decide by themselves if they like a thing or why they would or would not like it.
@colorona8456 absolutely! I wasn't stating my point in a negative sense. More a "it's the way it is" sense! 😊 I first realised what people were saying was media tainted when they started riding tubeless tyres and couldn't quite explain in their own words how they felt so they used sound bites from things they'd heard on TH-cam! 😂 But it goes on and on. A friend of mine tried and tried to convince me electronic groupsets are the best things since sliced bread! But everything he said literally came off the shimano advertising for the groupset he was riding! 😂 I guess you only notice these things if you watch and read a lot about bikes/cycling yourself. 😂 My new bike has electronic gears but to be honest well looked after 105 mechanical gears are fine. The benefits definitely do not out weigh the extra cost.
Really interesting.
I had no real knowledge when I bought my bike. I will be trying to get a new one past the 'fun police' soon. So great to have some better insight now:)
I've always taken it that there's a broadly inverse relationship between speed and comfort. Out of my 3 bikes, my folding bike "feels" the most fun and relaxing to ride. also I love the acceleration and edginess of the 20" wheels. It's also by far the slowest.
I can tell you that's not a necessary trade off.
I like how this engineer responded to the notion that "flex doesn't matter because energy is returned to the frame" with about the same seriousness as a rational person would respond to bigfoot.
I love Canyon bikes!
That bit at the end really shows Alex’s toe down riding style when coming up over the top of the stroke . Interesting
Thanks for noticing, what do you find interesting about it?
@ well for a man which copious amounts of cranks and I assume different lengths , I wonder if a more heel down style would allow you to get more forward / lower as your hip angle would be different. Not a criticism, just different .
@@Gixer750pilot Everyone's crank supply has its limits, including mine! Potentially yes, but I just find this is my style. That's not to say it's the best setup, but more a personal preference.
@ I know. It’s just an observation . I know Si is very similar . I know when I had a bike fit years ago I was the same and was told to drop my heel . To reduce the hip angle .
Can we also get a video taking a look at Alex’s Ferrari and why it rides so well?
3:37 aerodynamics affecting how a ride feels..... hardly, unless you have a parachute. He said it again at 7:38, so he really meant it.
If you're cruising around above 40kmh you will feel the differences in bikes that are otherwise the same but where one is less draggy. You might notice it when trying to accelerate through 30-40 as well.
@@weatheranddarkness I also really doubt that. An aero frame means a couple of Watts at 40 kph yes, but just lifting up your head/body a slight bit will have way more aero influence than some fancy aero tubing.
Yes, on the long fast run Aero will save Energy but how a bike feels is 99,9% about Stiffness, Geometry and Tires. Cheers!
@@S1Carter7 It can be felt, just as sitting up straight can be felt as an easy way to reduce your corner entry speed. The bike's drag is essentially fixed at a given speed. Your posture is not a fixed variable. Look, I'm not saying it's big, but I am saying it's there, it can be felt, and it can actually be measured.
@@weatheranddarkness Aeroad vs. Ultimate, I think you'll only notice the difference when you look at elapsed time and maybe top speed while coasting on a descent. If you're doing something weird like a TT and trying to hold a certain speed, you'd notice one takes more effort. But just regular riding with the same effort, naw.
@@larrylem3582 top speed while coasting is something you'd notice as a feeling that it might be faster, for sure.
Thanks for the video
Sponsorship, perhaps? 😁 (in response to the 1st question asked in this video) Canyon, Cube and Rose bikes ... you can't be wrong. 👍
What never gets mentioned is the disadvantage of thin walled tubes. One can make a stronger and lighter tube, in torsion or bending, by increasing its diameter and reducing its wall thickness. But it then becomes more susceptible to impact loads causing localized damage, such as fractures or dents.
Nice AD so far.
Thanks for this. I have a question about road feel and tires. I come from a much earlier era of 23mm sewups running 120 psi, or even 180 on the track. Back in the mid-1980s, the difference in ride quality (our phrase then) between different steel bikes on those tires was immediately easy to feel. I am as enthused as anyone about the new clincher, tubless, and wide tires, that soak up road noise yet still feel very free running, but I feel they absorb the distinctions between a great frame and group, and a so-so frame and group. Any thoughts?
It feels much better on one's sensitive parts to ride mostly lying down. It feels much faster when you really are much more aero. It feels strange to be called an outsider and 'Not Like Us' when you choose a bike that doesn't hurt you and goes faster.
I really love my current bike; it's easily my favorite bike of all time. But the bike I have now is not the bike I bought. I purchased it on impulse, based entirely on an unreasonable enthusiasm for the brakes, and then, in stages, replaced all the other parts of the bike I decided I didn't like, which is literally everything, except for the frame, fork, and rear derailleur. (No, really; I even replaced the bottom bracket and cables.) Had I been more intentional at the outset about what kind of bike I actually wanted, I would have saved myself a lot of aggravation, time, and money. (My experience is also a case study in the advantages of not buying a bike with integrated components, but that's a topic for another day.)
"Thank you for your work offsetting my slow and inevitable decay?"
How about doing a series of blind test rides where the design characteristics of the bikes are hidden somehow (not sure how!) without affecting performance and then let riders judge similarly sized bikes for the subjective factor of “ride feel”. GCN did it for group sets but could it also be done for frames?
Seat tube angle, head tube angle, and fork rake
What I'm looking for in bike feel is a bike that feels like I'm pedaling downhill when I'm pedaling uphill 😅
Alex, what brand shoe covers were you riding in the video?
Ride feel is important. I have steel, aluminium, titanium and carbon bikes which i love to ride. I did however hate the feel of a kinesis racelight so gave it away. This Canyon conversation was a waste of time
One of the best GCN videos ever, thank you. My journey over 50 years has led me to a titanium gravel bike that is easily the best bike I've ever ridden, can't describe why though....
Hey Alex, your latest sentence about "steady decline due to age" is a subject that would be well worth an extended assessment / video. What happens when we simply "won't be able" to make anymore PR's 😞 on Zwift or IRL. Motivation is fine, but no more badges on Strava is somewhat deflating....
I like to feel fast (not necessarily being as fast in reality). In the long term, however, I would opt for comfort and durability.
Carbon's problem is it lasts forever. If you make it you need to deal with recycling it.
Great video.
Which is why I ride a 20 year old alloy Colnago. Well... mostly because I can't afford a new one, but knowing it's more sustainable makes me feel a little better 😅
one of the things i keep wondering is; is it possible to have a race bike that is 6.8kg with a 60cm frame? for example, i just acquired a 2022 (2020 generation) SuperSix EVO (Hi-Mod) frame but because of the amount of material used to create the frame; i'm not sure achieving a "pro" weight platform is possible. (even with a wheelset along the lines of Meilenstein or Schmolke).
May I suggest that your video would be so much more helpful if you took a deep dive into what makes an endurance bike comfortable, not into the high end racing bike.
To be honest. I've never test ridden bike I own. That even includes the most expensive I own. Which would most likely seen at you office. As I own Blake Samson's pink and green Orbea Rallon. I did have a different reason for not test riding my road bike. I had to wait untill I swapped almost all the components from the old road frame to the new road frame.
Manufacturers just need to start advertising 3.9% better ride feel. That way we will all know what popular bike we are supposed to buy. About as accurate as the wind tunnel and stiffness tests.
Has Mr. Lucas ever engineered a bike with the geometry and materials that he wanted and for some reason, that doesn't make sense, had that bike fail in its goals?
It's really too bad it's so difficult for us consumers to try out a bike before purchase. It's not just the direct to consumer brands like Canyon. Your local bike shop is unlikely to stock your size either, and there's the variables like tire size and pressure that make a huge difference also. We're kinda stuck reading/watching reviews and hoping for the best.
I agree. During lockdown I decided to buy my dream road bike, but which one to choose? I didn't want to get it horribly wrong and blow my budget (£9K) on something that didn't feel great to ride. So I read as many reviews as possible. Ride feel (as reported by the reviewers) was very important, as were things like reliability, visual appeal, and where the bike was manufactured. After a lot of agonising, I ordered a Colnago C64 from Sigma Sports and haven't regretted it for a moment. For a professional race bike, it is so comfortable that I can ride it for 6+ hours no problem. It feels fast when climbing and stable on twisty descents, and in my eyes looks beautiful. Every ride feels like something special.
@@DMcTyke Glad you had success!
At 7:15 the bike is wobbling all over indicating his head is too far from axis of steering This will wreck anyone near him in a tight peloton.
So yesterday I picked up a steel tube and tried with all my might to flex it, and sure enough it flexed a little. The I took a stiffer tube and tried with all my might to flex it, but it didn't seem to flex at all. So, clearly I didn't expend nearly so much energy on the second tube. Or..........
What's happened to Manon Lloyd?
She's gone. In July 2024 she said ''After an incredible four and a half years with Global Cycling Network, it's time for me to turn the page to the next chapter in my book.''
😂😂 here we go again
She works for Eurosport on their cycling coverage now, or at least did for the TDFF and other races around that time.
Yo could distill the whole video to when he says it comes down to tire choice,
The secret? Hype...
steel, carbon, aluminium, titanium -- I wonder what other advances will be made in materials science that will allow the maximization of stiffness, lightness, compliance, and aero in the future
Very interesting, now wondering how to apply this to my 66-yo, 100kg, arthritic self
Good you marked it with an almost invisible AD tag. While canyons are solid good bikes, they are everything but good looking
Eye of the beholder. Love Canyon design language. Considered and consistent.
I think their biggest issue is the paint schemes. I think about the only ones that have actually looked good were the black and gold when they launched the updated Grail CFR and the current black sparkle on the CFR Ultimate. Unfortunately the rest lack. And the lower tier models the paint is just horrible.
Before parting with your hard earned money, go to a local dealer and have a test ride on several different bikes that you are looking at and decide on what feels the best and meets your budget. It simple, not rocket science!
Have been riding since 1961. All this refinement in performance / feel is mind-numbing. Reliability of components, especially the bottom bracket and spindle / bearings is what I value most. A well-made metal frame and front forks - steel / aluminum / titanium will last indefinitely. No CF cracking or shattering. This is what gives old dinosaur me riding satisfaction.
The canyon headset is a terrible thing
I have 2 customers with the cfr ,both headset bearings failed within 6 months ,1 only lasted 4 .The bike came out of the box with no brakes either .A single point failure on a steerer is a terrible idea in every metric ,and rge dumb tool to tighten is that too .
Roadies slowly finding out MTB riders might have some valuable knowledge about bicycles :D
Where is the orange pinarello?
They moved to a different room, my guess is pinarello wanted it back?
It's on the wall behind Cuthbert with a stuffed animal in the rear triangle
Why I chose my Time bike
i heard and saw many thing made by AI from electronic design and other thing. i am curious what kind a road bike AI will made look like
It’s all about the color.
The real secret is canyon not giving the workbook of assembly for mechanics and clients.
Canyon advert
at 2:44 you have left the lights on. im guessing you must feel like a millionaire after selling all of those dura ace cranks
Some interesting observations, but the episode seems like a bit of a Canyon infomercial.
I love my Aeroad, but the seat stays and seat post are so stiff, it kills me on long rides. So I bought an Sworks 🤣. I still love my Aeroad though so it's not going anywhere. I'll still use it for Crits, but for longer rides and road races, it will be the SL8. It's so much more comfortable and light.
Why does the Presenter (sorry Im bad with names) look so much like the beever Plush thats sat on the Pinarello frame Chainstay in the background?!! xD
This level of nuance in a bike frame is much smaller than the range of rider weight and strength. Unless a manufacturer is going to list the weight of the rider the frame has been designed for its still a shot in the dark.
That's why i wont ever buy a high end bike, they flex too much, being designed for riders with 30% less weight and power.
"feel... the forgotten metric no-one is talking about..." ???
What do you mean? There are many who ride solely on 'feel', who don't use power meters or head units because they're a distraction.
It's why many don't ride modern bikes that need fat tyres and low tyre pressures to mask some truly terrible riding characteristics.
And it's why rim brake bikes are held in such high esteem by those who place a premium on 'feel'.
So no, riding on 'feel' isn't forgotten, not even close.
1:42 "different from", "similar to". Not what you said.
Great Ride Feel in my Fairlight Secan steel frame
Ever since he tried to defend bike companies absolute insane price gouging, I do not like any video he is in and don’t trust a single word he says.
Grape Smugglers
Rides Aethos once… realizes all other bikes are trash.
ENDURANCE BIKE 😂
What a load of word salad from the "engineers". None of them are even close. "Ride feel" comes from accurate alignment - and that's something framebuilding contractors in the far-east cannot achieve.
I think the Canyon engineer has a pretty narrow focus: riding fast, maximizing the potential for riding fast. That he rejects out of hand other materials is a bit myopic. I think it was telling that when you asked about other materials the ONLY material property he mentioned was stiffness to weight ratio. There are so many other factors that he completely ignored. It shows he's not necessarily aware of or concerned about what people want in terms of ride quality and what other people want in a bike.
Why not talk to a bike maker or builder who has a more global and complete view of what riders might want in terms of ride quality and isn't focused on one narrow group of cyclists? The UK has loads of such builders. Why not talk to them? You've got Mason, Enigma, Fairlight, and loads of custom builders. I'm willing to bet those types of builders have a more global view than the Canyon engineer does.
The question was very specifically, will PERFORMANCE bikes see a rise in other materials. Engineer wasn't narrowly focused. He answered the question that was asked. You just have a problem that question. Looks like you don't need a performance bike. Most of us don't.
@@cjohnson3836, I understood the question, but I still think the answer was narrowly focused. I'll note Bigham and Ganna both rode alloy bikes to UCI world hour records. IMHO, one reason for the engineer's answer could be that the industry's inertia re: frame material is tough to change and/or the industry is in a "local minimum" and can't see other options.
As for "performance bike", well, that's not a well-defined term. It's a subjective term, not an objective one.