Warren. I’m a Kenworth Master Tech. I’ve only seen something like this happen once, and what it ended up being was dirty fuel system components blocking fuel passages. I would consider taking the high pressure lines and injectors out and thoroughly cleaning everything. I don’t doubt that you did a good job keeping everything clean when you took it apart and reassembled, but that’s the symptom I’ve seen that caused this issue
Just got done messing with an international DT heui that cranked good but wouldn’t start put the jump pack on it and boom it would light. Had a couple bad batteries. Fought a paccar a while back did a head on it but could not get it to start. Went through crank no start troubleshooting on RMI ended up isolating the high pressure pumps one at a time. Cap one off and crank if no start cap the other and try again which ever pump it started on the other one was bad. Long story short found one bad pumping unit. I will preface that with the fact I did not have good rail pressure which you seem to. If you need any info from paccar RMI let me know for as bad as DAVIE is the RMI is pretty solid. If I have time in the morning I’ll scan through that crank no start tree I believe it had some steps in there for timing verification. But it might just be checking the synchronization data pid
I did verify this morning that it directs you to verify timing with the synchronization pid on davie and if engine has signs of recent timing related work to verify base engine timing…… which we all know what that means off comes the rear structure:/
I ran into one that ran me around terrible. Same exact symptoms. Ended up being a compression seal on an injector that would push air in the system from the return side right into the high pressure pump unit. Hope this helps!
I had one come in with a smoked lifter that looked like yours, turned out the cam lobe spun on the cam. they are pressed together from pieces, not one solid piece like a guy would think. Luckily after the cam swap it did fire up and run afterward. Good luck, cant wait to see what you find.
I feel like I’m waiting on the edge of my seat for the next episode. Finding out how you solve this is like waiting to see who shot JR… lol. Thanks for the update and video..
Hey Warren, if anybody can get this POS running you can. I guess it’s just going to be another learning experience! Thanks much for checking in with us.
Good Morning. In your first video you showed BLACK STUFF in the fuel filters. You also state that the common rail pressure is high. That is usually Combustion Carbon getting into the fuel due to faulty injectors stuck open. Also combustion pressure would cause high common rail pressure. I would check the injectors.
I believe there was a tsb on this, and it correlated to the P0094 original code that was generated. Over time the combustion seals where injector meets the head start to leak and that causes air in high pressure side of system which messes with rail pressure and fuel pressure control valve adjusting properly for demand when engine state is in “unit pump control” mode. Also causes hard starts and black filters like you stated
My 2000 7.3 powerstroke did the same thing to me. Wouldn't start - installed 2 - new batteries - no start - cranked better but no start. Change starter and fired right up. I always thought (like you said) the old starter dragged down the voltage to a point the ecm. Didn't know what to do. 👍
If you get a scope, you can use that log truck to get a known good waveform of the cam and crank sensors. Then compare to your no start. That will tell you if your out of time without having to pull the trans.
I had a 6.0 power stroke one time I was trying to diagnose and I replaced cam and crank sensor at the same time and I could not because of the angle for some reason get the o ring to seat all the way on the crank sensor and it would not start but it had good signal On my Snap on Vantage graphing meter An scan data said it had can crank sync. I even suspected that and took it in and out a few times got frustrated finally one of my co-workers For some reason was able to pull that crank sensor back out and put it in correctly and it started I felt like an idiot Maybe something to check sensor to Reluctor ring gap too big on one of the sensors so unplug one fires on default? It's always the last thing you check keep up the good Work buddy I feel your pain I hate stuff like that All you wanna do is see it go down the road
Yeah, I’m experiencing a similar situation when you do everything you throw all your weapons at it and it still doesn’t work, search in the Internet searching TH-cam looking for some kind of help but it’s not there because you’re in a unique situation so it’s a feeling of being defeated it gives a feeling of when it’s somebody else’s stuff The possibility of losing your reputation of being unable to solve the problem is overwhelming at times
There is equal levels of audio on L &R channels when Warren is overdubbing so it's more than likely a camera problem that the L channel is barely audible at other times.
I hate when you get wrapped up in a project like this, you just have to stick your head down and power through it. Any chance the wiring could be off to the injectors or pumping units? I’m hoping it’s a bad starter or batteries, so you can get the darn thing out of the shop and back on the road. This is definitely one we will all remember. It sucks when you’re under the black cloud. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us, Warren.
Probably like a dd15 when the injectors just fuck up after being apart if it runs off Cosby sauce timing cam crank sync all good it’s a pain in the ass lol dead head some injector see if the actual and desired rail get better
I don’t trust your rail pressure reading it seems way off not sure what diagnostics you’re using but it doesn’t seem right. I really would suggest blanking off a pump unit
I have ran into issues with batteries being bad with these types of scenarios. I am for putting new batteries in it. I may be completely wrong, I just got to your videos on this project.
Yesterdat's video at ~19:10 "Stop switch on" (engine off)? I think the wiring diagram that sets this in the ECM might be of interest once you find the switch, hence my wiring harness question . Good Luck
Oh wow yeah seems like quite the POS, if it has uneven cranking and you can turn it 360 degrees by hand maybie the starter has some bad coils that burnt out? But that would be werid to happen unless there where problems before you rebuilt it. You could put a multimeter across the batteries in voltage mode and cranke it and see how low it drops, do that as well on the one that starts and comapre them, ofcourse reading the amprage would be better to compare. Maybie the injectors are werid? Would taking one out and running it on top of the engine so you could see if it's squerting fuel be worth it? Could also be some blocage or something, maybe put the return into a bucket and see what it's doing? Sorry if any of theas are stupid, i don't work on trucks so i could be saying bullshit that dosn't apply.
I’m behind on your videos. I’ve had John Deere’s with bad connection at the rail pressure sensor cause it to show pressure without it even cranking. They will not make pressure if it thinks it has pressure. Just something else to check which you may have checked since I’m behind on the videos. With the uneven crank it’s probably the cranking speed issue. Don’t know if I’m helping or not so I’m sorry if I’m not. Wish you luck
I would take the boosters of the Battery will it crank? If no, need newer Battery's. The boosters are turning the starter over. With the uneven crank sound like one or two cylinders are getting some fuel. Is the mechanical or electric fuel injection?
Batteries down weak starter draw to much not enough voltage to ecm to run maybe had a 15 liter Cummins do that was bad cable from battery to starter pulled too much. Good luck.
Warren, you probably feel alone trying to diagnose the problem because you are alone for the most part. There aren't too many knowledgeable mechanics these days, or ones that take responsibility to figure out the problem that arises during repair work. You will figure this out and we all know you'll never charge what your typical shop would charge!
Hello Warren. I work with Paccar a lot. If you said that it is running on ether than obviously timing is good as it is very simple to set up. Batteries and starter are not he case , IMHO. I am sure it is fuel issue. If you did not do before , try to verify if you do not have too much fuel going to return. Cylinder head has two threaded holes. If you would have necessary plugs and banjo bolts, you can plug rear one, open in front of the head, and with transparent hose and banjo bolt plug it and verify if you have excessive fuel running out, also if you have air coming from it, what can be caused by combustion gases running in it due any to loose fuel injector. I have a feeling it is either too much fuel in return or air in return. Wish you to best of luck!
Hi Warren, You are an amazing mechanic and I have learnt so much from your videos so thanks for your postings from me here in Australia. Just a couple of thoughts for you to ponder. If the engine started and ran at first start, your timing must be OK so you can possibly not go down that path. You also note that the fuel rail pressure is 4,700 psi which is 1,100 psi (33%) above set value (3,600 psi) and that the engine has uneven cranking with the sensors plugged in and the cranking returns to normal when the speed connectors are disconnected indicating that the ECM is detecting the engine is rotating. Is it possible that the ECM has detected an excessively high fuel rail pressure and will not inject (start the engine) as it knows that it will not be able to control engine speed as the actual injected fuel quantity will be much higher than the calculated amount (1.85 grams/cycle) because the calculated fuel injection amount is based on a fuel rail pressure of 3,600 psi and an injector open cycle time of X at that cranking speed and the ECM probably can't compensate for the higher fuel rail pressure? It may be possible that each time the engine attempts to fire (uneven cranking) that the ECM detects the rotational speed of the engine (crankshaft acceleration) is faster than it should for the amount of fuel it is injecting and stops the engine from starting.
Excessive starter draw is one of the most overlooked problems I've seen in 45 years as a heavy equipment mechanic. Most engines need to reach a target cranking speed to allow the ecm to fire the injectors. Trust your basic skills and don't overcomplicate it. Cheers bud
I remember working on a Paccar years ago and we had a crank but no start. It started up at first like yours and then died. It ended up taking over 100 pumps to get the thing to fire. We had to prime FOREVER to get fuel into it and get enough pressure in it to run. I doubt your issue is the same because of your other issues but I wanted to share my displeasure with working on Paccar. I also remember them being VERY sensitive to voltage drop too. A battery on the fritz would prevent them from running. Put the batteries in another vehicle and get another two years out of the batteries. Idk might be sometime strange like wiring that was damaged during the work or maybe something as crazy as a tone ring being backwards. I know you’ll find the issue tho. You always do. You’re no quitter.
I'm with you on tone rings could be it. I picked up on the uneven crank and keep thinking that's the sign of the problem. He said it would fire on either, and to do that you bypass the tone rings.
Good call. A trainer once told us they had a engine not start before because the timing mark in the flywheel was full of dirt and it wouldn't read the signals properly bc of that
Sounds like voltage drop to the ECM, with these newer trucks bad batteries sure fvcks things up, get a bad starter drawing too much juice the voltage is dropping the ECM starts cutting out. Watching your videos over the years makes me glad I don't live in the land of strict emissions regulations here in BC Canada we can still run a truck with a Green Grenade 😂 I sure as shit won't be buying a used truck with a Paccar engine.
You said you adjusted the overhead on the TDC mark. Cylinders 1 and 6 are adjusted when on the 1/6 mark on the flywheel NOT on the TDC mark. The TDC mark is only used to time the gears. However I don’t believe that would cause a Crank/No Start. Very interested in how this plays out. Will be checking in.
Back in the mid-1980s, I was struggling with a computer program problem for days. I finally got the needed information to get it working. I have never forgotten the solution to this day. Warren, when you get to the bottom of this, you'll never forget it, trust me.
Did you say it starts on either in a past vid???or was that a different engine??if its getting fuel at all even on one cylinder it should at least be trying to start if it has compression and timing is correct. Obviously u know that ....and as well if it starts on either it aint timing. The uneven crank thing ..any chance the injector wiring can get mixed up. So dun with the electronic shit that when the injectors failed in my 03 dodge 3500 i transplanted a tweeked 12 valve with a pull shutoff.
Also quick and simple thing to try. Hook a jumper cable from the block to the negative on batt. Just in case the ecm grounds somewhere on the block and you missed it
I’ve been watching you for a long time. I think you had 30-40,000 subs at that time. I don’t remember a video where you were more stumped than this one. I’m sure you’ve had head scratchers before. One thing I’ve learned in your videos, the harder that thing fights you the harder you’re going to bite down. Like pay dirt says “Jeff wins” so will Warren. 👍
Hello Warren! Ben watching you a while, Im a 65 year old jack of lots of trades around the farms a few times ? Trouble you have with pacar low battery, I'm finding out these days that has a lot to do with things ?? If batteries are down a little just won't start and it doesn't take much for the electronics to not work properly?? Good battery and it will start right up ? Thanks for bringing me along have a good day
Warren don't bet your self up on the pac car and over think. You said it started and ran. Then died. You can spray it and it will fire. I don't see it being timing. Batterys? Injectors?
I had a ford tractor like that one time uneven crank wouldn’t start you could bench test the starter and it showed good,batteries were good but a new starter fixed it
My 2004 Duramax will crank pretty decent but not start if the batteries get low. I was going to mention hearing the uneven crank. You say it changes this -it goes away- if you unplug one of the sensors. If it ran before teardown with these components (sensors), chances are they are good. With a dual scope you could check whether cam and crank sensors are in time (in sync) with each other. Without scope, can you pull cam and crank sensors to see if they agree with each other?? (toothed wheels agree with each other?) Do they agree with actual cam and crank? Would be best if you could also see cam lobes and crank agree with both sensor wheels (#1 piston pull injector and insert metal rod down to piston to confirm TDC.) Make sure a toothed wheel isn't 180 off. This all is assuming cam sensor reads off the actual cam and crank reads off the actual crank. Are all timing gears correctly installed on shafts?
Had a similar issue after I did a cylinder head on a paccar mx13, the injectors went bad supposedly due to lack of prime they told me. I had that same hiccups you are having when you are cranking, I pit a six pack in it. Primed fuel system and it fire right up.
Wish the best for you on this one Warren, wished I could help out, but if this thing has you stumped at this time, I sure as shootin don’t stand a chance at helping, the thing I would be willing to bet is that it probably something simple and in no way would you suspect it. Thanks for the update sir.
If your timing was off wouldn’t you have a compression issue? Could you test compression? Maybe Using a scope to check injector pulse to crank sensor signals…Hopefully it’s just a battery issue… Good luck!
Warren I didn't know if this my be, does the alternator spin free!!! Years age a alternator was dragging and very similar thing, it just would not start, pulled belt started,🌞
seems like the only part changed that could cause problems would be the cam? could there be a problem with the new cam? are there any differences with the tone wheel the sensor reads? teeth shape or spacing? could you supply the truck electrical system a different way to get more voltage to the computer while cranking? could you measure the battery voltage at the computer on the positive and negative and see exactly what voltage the computer is getting while cranking? a lot of meters can log minimum and maximum. just a few ideas for you to ponder.
I just watched ZK MasterTech last night and he worked on a Deere tractor with a Cummins and he changed the high pressure fuel pump and that wasn’t the problem. In the end it was the starter not spinning fast enough. Love the videos!
Hi iam just thinking out of the box, you changed the cam for the fuel so did you compare the lobes to the old one , did they give you the wrong one in the right box, good luck i have never worked on a paccar but if i did i would shoot it between the headlights, i had a oliver tractor once that was direct injected and they gave me a cam for an indirect injected it would run backwards intake as exaust exaust as intake it was wild again good luck
I recently had a liebherr engine in a loader have this same problem the uneven crank was the injectors being shut off and back on. I had tried the same thing with the cam and crank sensors. Other liebherr I could unplug the crank and it would start. The teeth on the flywheel had a gap at TDC and one of the teeth on one side of the gap had a groove in it and that sensor would see it a shut the injectors off. I changed the flywheel and it started
I feel your pain my friend,I started at age 27 as a mechanic for the USPS,back in the day we pulled a red knob and cable to shut down the engine,simple,didnt even need a battery to run,over 37 years we tried them all Mack Volvo Ford International ,every model a bigger pain in the ass.In my last few years no soft ware to use and take them to the dealer , check engine lites back on before I even made it back to our garage, International dealer just told me run them till they de rate ,they could not repair them .Then comes this Cummins knock off PACCAR, king of the DEF problems. Well, I retired cause I couldnt repair anything , best regards ,enjoy your vids
A bad set of batteries can sure drag down the voltage/amperage output even with boosting as they act like a sponge and won't let the power through. Also as I am sure you know, bad batteries cause starter/solenoid contacts arc/burn and end up having to change out the starter or at least solenoid as a result. This year I had struggles with my 2005 Pete with a C15, first the ECM shit the bed right on the scales of a seed cleaning plant ... truck was running and then it died as it sat there idling. Fortunately there is a well versed mechanic not far away and got him over there and he plugs in his laptop and said power is getting to your ECM but the ECM has shit the bed as its not communicating. He had a spare test ECM and put that on and it fires right up. When I had a chance I dropped the truck off to him and he put a reman ECM on and had to do some programming etc as the old ECM parameter info was corrupted. I asked what he though of its cranking speed and he said it was "ok" but not really what it could be. I had changed out the batteries four years prior ( 4 battery system ) and some months later I had some issues with slow cranking and I checked the tightness of the battery nuts and sure enough they were way too loose now and so I re-tighten and this went on and on with every so often having to re-tighten all the nuts on the batteries ... it was like the lead was soft and would not hold a torque. This spring after that ECM issue I checked the battery connections ... this fall just before harvest did it again. Well a few weeks later in close to the end of harvest the truck was giving fits because it would not restart sometimes after just having been run, would crank over ok but no sign of trying to fire ... piss around thinking the breaker in the cab for the ECM might be bad etc or its the ECM again or a crank sensor but anyway then it would decide to start a few minutes later. And then I think I finally figured it out, it was those darned battery connections once again and up to that point did not realize that the ECM gets its main power direct from the battery box with a 30 amp maxi fuse in the box ( its all under the passenger seat in this Pete, always saw the fuse but never knew what it powered ) as tightening the connections "again" which fixed the issue and the very lug that the positive wire for the ECM power feed fuse was really loose and my "uh huh" moment. I had also talked to that mechanic about the issue and my concern over not all that snappy of a cranking speed and he said bypass those two battery disconnects out of the system that the original owner had installed. I did that and wow, does it ever crank over a lot faster by ear now and that was with the very same batteries. Never the less I had enough of all that bull crap of the battery connections being loose every time I turned around so I installed four new batteries of a different brand and and it never missed a beat late in the fall hauling grain to the grain elevators. Its very possible that those batteries cost me that ECM failure due to low voltage from poor connections damaging it, I will never know that though.
Hi Warren. I used to measure the starter amps before deciding to replace starter or batteries. I had the Snap-On AVR that could inductive measure 3000 or so amps. After load testing each battery separately, I'd put the amp clamp as close to the starter as I could to measure the draw. The draw would initially spike at 1200-1500 amps cold (12V starter) and drop down to about 600-800 continuous cranking amps. Any more than that, and the starter is junk. If memory serves, the ECM should stay above 9V. at continuous cranking speed, 10 V would be better.
One i worked on starts with very weak batteries , when measuring voltage drop for slow cranking i found problems with short battery cables and oxidation ,measure voltage drop with ignition on in the battery box from each post to the other end ,few milliamps less than 5 is ok , lost or loose ground stands out ,i once had similar issue that got fix by adding ground wire to the ground side of the cam sensor ,stretched wires ,liquid in cam connectors can kill weak signals . Check the camshaft sensor connections and wiring, visually inspect for issues, and use a DAVIE monitor to check the cam-crank signal value when starting the engine ,if you can see what computer sees its much easier ,tone wheel backwards ? hitting one cylinder only...
I’m with ya Warren,you will succeed on this pos, you will benefit,I believe,Thks for keeping us up to date on this. I got 2 buddies that watched for the first time recently,I’m gonna hang in there.
I had a problem with a freightliner not starting. Simular slow and uneven crank. Battery harness through chassis was the problem. Just old dirty cable conections. cheers and keep on with the vidios. Very informative.
Hi Warren I just wanted to take the time to say I really appreciate your content. So many TH-camrs become successful and no longer are relatable. One guy started making a bs racecar. I worked for a man like yourself for one summer. I really miss those days. God must have a place set for people like yourself.
Call Haggai Truck Center in Griffin Georgia. They are an independent shop that works on tons of trucks. They might have run into this problem before. They normally don't mind troubleshooting over the phone. I'd say call a paccar dealership but they wouldn't know as much as an independent shop.
When cracking, monitor common rail operating state, engine operating state, and engine mode might help. Wow this is a good case. Last time I was working on a MX and fuel pressure (Relative) was below 5psi, the cause was a torn seal inside the fuel filter element.
Any possibility it could be an injector return pressure issue? I really know very little about that engine specifically, but some common rail diesels need positive pressure in injector return to fire injectors. If air is introduced into such a system, it can be almost impossible to get started without using shop air to slightly pressurize return circuit. I'm talking specifically about the lml duramax engine that uses piezoelectric injectors. Like I said it may not apply to this engine. Love your content man and sure hope you get it figured out soon!
I have been working on the PACCAR product and the MX engine since it came out ,,I have had that issue ,It is injectors,, Normally a cleanliness issue ,,It starts runs for a min if you lucky cuts out and doesn;t start again ,,He also has too high a rail pressure from what is demanded by the ECM ,And the Pump correction is in the high negative figures as the pumps are trying to lower the pressure ,So the fuel is at the injector as there is pressure ,it sounds like 1 or 2 injectors are working ,But he won't listen and is getting himself confused chasing things that are not there
@@norb0254 Did he mention that engine run with either cam or crank sensor disconnected ? I've seen a shorted pressure rail sensor bring down computer throwing multiple other codes , disconnected all sensor till engine resumed operation ,codes did little to no help in finding out the problem .
@@rovidius2006 if i remember correctly there is no codes .I think it initally started and then cut out and has not run since...He mention the ECM requested say 300 bar and there was 500 bar at the rail ( the figures i made up as i can not remember what he said they where ) and he had a high negative correction ..It does sound like 1 or 2 injectors are firing ..I have been working on these engines since they where launched back in i think 2006 when it had 6 pump units ,till todays common rail set up...The engines will run with either just a cam or crank sensor but he say his are synchronised when spinning it over..As a rule 99% of the time if you have no warnings/codes the electrics are ok ( there is always that 1 situation when you get no codes and it is electrical lol ) But with no codes active or stored ,that says to me it is a good old mechanical fault ..I have looked at the troubleshooting and from what he says for a non start especially after major work it is the injectors .I am in the uk dealer network and i am currently doing a camshaft a week i am currently on number 26 and have 2 waiting and have personally never had an issue ,it is all about cleanliness .putting caps on ports ,i strip and clean the filter housing before putting it back on
@@norb0254 Air locks ? fuel pressure relief valve should purge air out but if plugged injectors themselves would purge air out taking long cranking time ,air is springy ,some defects are sometimes never known unless someone notices them for some reason .
If it was a cranking speed issue would it not stay running after you hit it with starting fluid? As sensative as a common rail injector is im thinking they might be the problem
So I’ve only seen it one time but try unhooking the exhaust pipe at the turbo and try to start it again. Had a maxxforce dt466 that had a dpf so plugged that it would crank slow and wouldn’t start tho it wanted to for just a second at the beginning of each crank cycle. Good luck. I know you’ll get it sooner than later
Been there,done that . I could get the engine to run and idle but the exhaust was 🔥 hot . The front can had collapsed in the front ,blocking the damn thing .
Warren. I’m a Kenworth Master Tech. I’ve only seen something like this happen once, and what it ended up being was dirty fuel system components blocking fuel passages. I would consider taking the high pressure lines and injectors out and thoroughly cleaning everything. I don’t doubt that you did a good job keeping everything clean when you took it apart and reassembled, but that’s the symptom I’ve seen that caused this issue
Just got done messing with an international DT heui that cranked good but wouldn’t start put the jump pack on it and boom it would light. Had a couple bad batteries. Fought a paccar a while back did a head on it but could not get it to start. Went through crank no start troubleshooting on RMI ended up isolating the high pressure pumps one at a time. Cap one off and crank if no start cap the other and try again which ever pump it started on the other one was bad. Long story short found one bad pumping unit. I will preface that with the fact I did not have good rail pressure which you seem to. If you need any info from paccar RMI let me know for as bad as DAVIE is the RMI is pretty solid. If I have time in the morning I’ll scan through that crank no start tree I believe it had some steps in there for timing verification. But it might just be checking the synchronization data pid
Thank you
I did verify this morning that it directs you to verify timing with the synchronization pid on davie and if engine has signs of recent timing related work to verify base engine timing…… which we all know what that means off comes the rear structure:/
I ran into one that ran me around terrible. Same exact symptoms. Ended up being a compression seal on an injector that would push air in the system from the return side right into the high pressure pump unit.
Hope this helps!
Yes this is likely. Hard to tell from the video if his truck has the return blender on top. If not the air bubbles would go back to the tank.
I had one come in with a smoked lifter that looked like yours, turned out the cam lobe spun on the cam. they are pressed together from pieces, not one solid piece like a guy would think. Luckily after the cam swap it did fire up and run afterward. Good luck, cant wait to see what you find.
I feel like I’m waiting on the edge of my seat for the next episode. Finding out how you solve this is like waiting to see who shot JR… lol. Thanks for the update and video..
Hey Warren, if anybody can get this POS running you can. I guess it’s just going to be another learning experience! Thanks much for checking in with us.
What a nightmare those piccar engines. You’re the best Warren .
Keep on keeping on! Appreciate you keeping us updated. Thanks
Good Morning. In your first video you showed BLACK STUFF in the fuel filters. You also state that the common rail pressure is high. That is usually Combustion Carbon getting into the fuel due to faulty injectors stuck open. Also combustion pressure would cause high common rail pressure. I would check the injectors.
I believe there was a tsb on this, and it correlated to the P0094 original code that was generated. Over time the combustion seals where injector meets the head start to leak and that causes air in high pressure side of system which messes with rail pressure and fuel pressure control valve adjusting properly for demand when engine state is in “unit pump control” mode. Also causes hard starts and black filters like you stated
My 2000 7.3 powerstroke did the same thing to me. Wouldn't start - installed 2 - new batteries - no start - cranked better but no start. Change starter and fired right up. I always thought (like you said) the old starter dragged down the voltage to a point the ecm. Didn't know what to do. 👍
If you get a scope, you can use that log truck to get a known good waveform of the cam and crank sensors. Then compare to your no start. That will tell you if your out of time without having to pull the trans.
Bet theirs someone in the automotive youtube community that could come scope them for him right now
I had a 6.0 power stroke one time I was trying to diagnose and I replaced cam and crank sensor at the same time and I could not because of the angle for some reason get the o ring to seat all the way on the crank sensor and it would not start but it had good signal On my Snap on Vantage graphing meter An scan data said it had can crank sync. I even suspected that and took it in and out a few times got frustrated finally one of my co-workers For some reason was able to pull that crank sensor back out and put it in correctly and it started I felt like an idiot Maybe something to check sensor to Reluctor ring gap too big on one of the sensors so unplug one fires on default? It's always the last thing you check keep up the good Work buddy I feel your pain I hate stuff like that All you wanna do is see it go down the road
Yeah, I’m experiencing a similar situation when you do everything you throw all your weapons at it and it still doesn’t work, search in the Internet searching TH-cam looking for some kind of help but it’s not there because you’re in a unique situation so it’s a feeling of being defeated it gives a feeling of when it’s somebody else’s stuff The possibility of losing your reputation of being unable to solve the problem is overwhelming at times
There is equal levels of audio on L &R channels when Warren is overdubbing so it's more than likely a camera problem that the L channel is barely audible at other times.
Hang in there Warren. You'll figure it out.
I hate when you get wrapped up in a project like this, you just have to stick your head down and power through it. Any chance the wiring could be off to the injectors or pumping units? I’m hoping it’s a bad starter or batteries, so you can get the darn thing out of the shop and back on the road. This is definitely one we will all remember. It sucks when you’re under the black cloud. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us, Warren.
good video
Hey warren disassemble the exhaust and see of smoke comes out maybe a blockage in the exhaust
This is a real cliff hanger!
It'll be a real "OH SHIT" moment when you finally do uncover the root issue. Stick with it.
Probably like a dd15 when the injectors just fuck up after being apart if it runs off Cosby sauce timing cam crank sync all good it’s a pain in the ass lol dead head some injector see if the actual and desired rail get better
Hey warren I really do think you’ve got a stuck open pumping unit. Blank off one of them it’ll take a bit and if still no joy blank the other off.
I don’t trust your rail pressure reading it seems way off not sure what diagnostics you’re using but it doesn’t seem right. I really would suggest blanking off a pump unit
I have ran into issues with batteries being bad with these types of scenarios. I am for putting new batteries in it. I may be completely wrong, I just got to your videos on this project.
Thanks for the update buddy I got faith you will find out what is happening 🙏
luv your vids good for retired guy
Can you hook up an oscilloscope to check cam and crank sensor sync.If it works on cranking this will tell you if the cam gears are out of time.
Also if system voltage drops below 9 ish the ecm may be turning off. Most ecms need at least nine at all times to stay awake and communicate
Yesterdat's video at ~19:10 "Stop switch on" (engine off)? I think the wiring diagram that sets this in the ECM might be of interest once you find the switch, hence my wiring harness question . Good Luck
Oh wow yeah seems like quite the POS, if it has uneven cranking and you can turn it 360 degrees by hand maybie the starter has some bad coils that burnt out? But that would be werid to happen unless there where problems before you rebuilt it. You could put a multimeter across the batteries in voltage mode and cranke it and see how low it drops, do that as well on the one that starts and comapre them, ofcourse reading the amprage would be better to compare.
Maybie the injectors are werid? Would taking one out and running it on top of the engine so you could see if it's squerting fuel be worth it? Could also be some blocage or something, maybe put the return into a bucket and see what it's doing? Sorry if any of theas are stupid, i don't work on trucks so i could be saying bullshit that dosn't apply.
I’m behind on your videos. I’ve had John Deere’s with bad connection at the rail pressure sensor cause it to show pressure without it even cranking. They will not make pressure if it thinks it has pressure. Just something else to check which you may have checked since I’m behind on the videos. With the uneven crank it’s probably the cranking speed issue. Don’t know if I’m helping or not so I’m sorry if I’m not. Wish you luck
It runs on ether so the timing is fine right? Does it have Jake brakes? Maybe they're stuck. Definitely a weird one.
I would take the boosters of the Battery will it crank? If no, need newer Battery's. The boosters are turning the starter over.
With the uneven crank sound like one or two cylinders are getting some fuel. Is the mechanical or electric fuel injection?
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
If you have everything installed correctly. Based on what I heard from this videos. There is a possibility that the fuel module check valve is bad?
Batteries down weak starter draw to much not enough voltage to ecm to run maybe had a 15 liter Cummins do that was bad cable from battery to starter pulled too much. Good luck.
Warren, you probably feel alone trying to diagnose the problem because you are alone for the most part. There aren't too many knowledgeable mechanics these days, or ones that take responsibility to figure out the problem that arises during repair work.
You will figure this out and we all know you'll never charge what your typical shop would charge!
I had to laugh at the state of your office Warren, a good hard-working mechanic never has a tidy office right?
I feel your pain Warren, that kind of a mess keeps a guy up at night. I have no doubt you'll get it figured though.
Hello Warren. I work with Paccar a lot. If you said that it is running on ether than obviously timing is good as it is very simple to set up. Batteries and starter are not he case , IMHO. I am sure it is fuel issue. If you did not do before , try to verify if you do not have too much fuel going to return. Cylinder head has two threaded holes. If you would have necessary plugs and banjo bolts, you can plug rear one, open in front of the head, and with transparent hose and banjo bolt plug it and verify if you have excessive fuel running out, also if you have air coming from it, what can be caused by combustion gases running in it due any to loose fuel injector. I have a feeling it is either too much fuel in return or air in return.
Wish you to best of luck!
Air bag job is almost therapeutic in comparison. I wish you the best on this
Usually the more complicated the problem is the less complicated the fix
Hi Warren, You are an amazing mechanic and I have learnt so much from your videos so thanks for your postings from me here in Australia. Just a couple of thoughts for you to ponder. If the engine started and ran at first start, your timing must be OK so you can possibly not go down that path. You also note that the fuel rail pressure is 4,700 psi which is 1,100 psi (33%) above set value (3,600 psi) and that the engine has uneven cranking with the sensors plugged in and the cranking returns to normal when the speed connectors are disconnected indicating that the ECM is detecting the engine is rotating. Is it possible that the ECM has detected an excessively high fuel rail pressure and will not inject (start the engine) as it knows that it will not be able to control engine speed as the actual injected fuel quantity will be much higher than the calculated amount (1.85 grams/cycle) because the calculated fuel injection amount is based on a fuel rail pressure of 3,600 psi and an injector open cycle time of X at that cranking speed and the ECM probably can't compensate for the higher fuel rail pressure? It may be possible that each time the engine attempts to fire (uneven cranking) that the ECM detects the rotational speed of the engine (crankshaft acceleration) is faster than it should for the amount of fuel it is injecting and stops the engine from starting.
Excessive starter draw is one of the most overlooked problems I've seen in 45 years as a heavy equipment mechanic. Most engines need to reach a target cranking speed to allow the ecm to fire the injectors. Trust your basic skills and don't overcomplicate it. Cheers bud
I remember working on a Paccar years ago and we had a crank but no start. It started up at first like yours and then died. It ended up taking over 100 pumps to get the thing to fire. We had to prime FOREVER to get fuel into it and get enough pressure in it to run. I doubt your issue is the same because of your other issues but I wanted to share my displeasure with working on Paccar. I also remember them being VERY sensitive to voltage drop too. A battery on the fritz would prevent them from running. Put the batteries in another vehicle and get another two years out of the batteries. Idk might be sometime strange like wiring that was damaged during the work or maybe something as crazy as a tone ring being backwards. I know you’ll find the issue tho. You always do. You’re no quitter.
I'm with you on tone rings could be it. I picked up on the uneven crank and keep thinking that's the sign of the problem. He said it would fire on either, and to do that you bypass the tone rings.
I agree with this. Definitely on to something
Did you install the flywheel correctly? The flywheel has 2 installation hole keys. Only 1 is the correct.
🤔
I was wondering about that too, but shouldn't it start off the cam sensor? This other truck starts off the cam sensor with the crank unplugged.
Good call. A trainer once told us they had a engine not start before because the timing mark in the flywheel was full of dirt and it wouldn't read the signals properly bc of that
Sounds like voltage drop to the ECM, with these newer trucks bad batteries sure fvcks things up, get a bad starter drawing too much juice the voltage is dropping the ECM starts cutting out. Watching your videos over the years makes me glad I don't live in the land of strict emissions regulations here in BC Canada we can still run a truck with a Green Grenade 😂 I sure as shit won't be buying a used truck with a Paccar engine.
You said you adjusted the overhead on the TDC mark. Cylinders 1 and 6 are adjusted when on the 1/6 mark on the flywheel NOT on the TDC mark. The TDC mark is only used to time the gears. However I don’t believe that would cause a Crank/No Start.
Very interested in how this plays out. Will be checking in.
CAT ECM's require 9 volts minimum to start the engine.
What an unholy mess. You will figure it out Warren, You always do. Best Wishes to You and Your Family.
Back in the mid-1980s, I was struggling with a computer program problem for days. I finally got the needed information to get it working. I have never forgotten the solution to this day. Warren, when you get to the bottom of this, you'll never forget it, trust me.
Did you say it starts on either in a past vid???or was that a different engine??if its getting fuel at all even on one cylinder it should at least be trying to start if it has compression and timing is correct.
Obviously u know that ....and as well if it starts on either it aint timing.
The uneven crank thing ..any chance the injector wiring can get mixed up.
So dun with the electronic shit that when the injectors failed in my 03 dodge 3500 i transplanted a tweeked 12 valve with a pull shutoff.
Do you have a playlist decade to Packcar issues?
That would be nice to see if possible.
Sincerely!
R.S.V.
Ihad a similar problem with a JD. It wouldnot bleedproperly. Found the return line restricted at the pump.
Also quick and simple thing to try. Hook a jumper cable from the block to the negative on batt. Just in case the ecm grounds somewhere on the block and you missed it
I’ve been watching you for a long time. I think you had 30-40,000 subs at that time. I don’t remember a video where you were more stumped than this one. I’m sure you’ve had head scratchers before. One thing I’ve learned in your videos, the harder that thing fights you the harder you’re going to bite down. Like pay dirt says “Jeff wins” so will Warren. 👍
Here That Only Parts Order's Make Warren This Upset
If it started, then died, and now it gallops when cranking; could it have possibly sheared a dowel or something and go out of time?
Have you monitored the ECM supply voltage and ground circuit while cranking?
This to me is 100% a fuel problem. The engine is in time.
Hello Warren! Ben watching you a while, Im a 65 year old jack of lots of trades around the farms a few times ? Trouble you have with pacar low battery, I'm finding out these days that has a lot to do with things ?? If batteries are down a little just won't start and it doesn't take much for the electronics to not work properly?? Good battery and it will start right up ? Thanks for bringing me along have a good day
Check power and grounds. Sounds like a bad + or ground somewhere
Yeah, anytime I have a weird problem like this it winds up being a ground
There's a lot to be said for oldschool Diesel engines with no electronics @@westerntruckandtractorrepa1353
Warren don't bet your self up on the pac car and over think. You said it started and ran. Then died. You can spray it and it will fire. I don't see it being timing. Batterys? Injectors?
I had a ford tractor like that one time uneven crank wouldn’t start you could bench test the starter and it showed good,batteries were good but a new starter fixed it
Could you possibly have the wiring for the cam/crank sensor crossed?
My 2004 Duramax will crank pretty decent but not start if the batteries get low. I was going to mention hearing the uneven crank. You say it changes this -it goes away- if you unplug one of the sensors. If it ran before teardown with these components (sensors), chances are they are good. With a dual scope you could check whether cam and crank sensors are in time (in sync) with each other. Without scope, can you pull cam and crank sensors to see if they agree with each other?? (toothed wheels agree with each other?) Do they agree with actual cam and crank? Would be best if you could also see cam lobes and crank agree with both sensor wheels (#1 piston pull injector and insert metal rod down to piston to confirm TDC.) Make sure a toothed wheel isn't 180 off. This all is assuming cam sensor reads off the actual cam and crank reads off the actual crank. Are all timing gears correctly installed on shafts?
Had a similar issue after I did a cylinder head on a paccar mx13, the injectors went bad supposedly due to lack of prime they told me. I had that same hiccups you are having when you are cranking, I pit a six pack in it. Primed fuel system and it fire right up.
Wish the best for you on this one Warren, wished I could help out, but if this thing has you stumped at this time, I sure as shootin don’t stand a chance at helping, the thing I would be willing to bet is that it probably something simple and in no way would you suspect it. Thanks for the update sir.
If your timing was off wouldn’t you have a compression issue? Could you test compression? Maybe Using a scope to check injector pulse to crank sensor signals…Hopefully it’s just a battery issue… Good luck!
Warren I didn't know if this my be, does the alternator spin free!!!
Years age a alternator was dragging and very similar thing, it just would not start, pulled belt started,🌞
seems like the only part changed that could cause problems would be the cam? could there be a problem with the new cam? are there any differences with the tone wheel the sensor reads? teeth shape or spacing? could you supply the truck electrical system a different way to get more voltage to the computer while cranking? could you measure the battery voltage at the computer on the positive and negative and see exactly what voltage the computer is getting while cranking? a lot of meters can log minimum and maximum. just a few ideas for you to ponder.
Is this pos a common rail engine? If so the cranking fuel pressure may be to low to allow injectors be activated.
I just watched ZK MasterTech last night and he worked on a Deere tractor with a Cummins and he changed the high pressure fuel pump and that wasn’t the problem. In the end it was the starter not spinning fast enough. Love the videos!
It's in time. You have fuel. ecm is good. I am thinking a bad ground circuit on one of the sensors. crank, cam, ecm.
Did you say earlier that the fuel filters were black and dirty, if so could a injector or two be stuck open 🤷♂️
Can't wait to hear results Warren... hopefully someone's two cents out here helps out ... best of luck!
I remember a CAT 3176 that wouldn't start. The tone ring was on the cam backwards. Doesn't sound like yours can be wrong. Good Luck.
Check injector pulse on all injectors ,if plugged or shorted it can pull ecm down ,led probe
Hi iam just thinking out of the box, you changed the cam for the fuel so did you compare the lobes to the old one , did they give you the wrong one in the right box, good luck i have never worked on a paccar but if i did i would shoot it between the headlights, i had a oliver tractor once that was direct injected and they gave me a cam for an indirect injected it would run backwards intake as exaust exaust as intake it was wild again good luck
I recently had a liebherr engine in a loader have this same problem the uneven crank was the injectors being shut off and back on. I had tried the same thing with the cam and crank sensors. Other liebherr I could unplug the crank and it would start. The teeth on the flywheel had a gap at TDC and one of the teeth on one side of the gap had a groove in it and that sensor would see it a shut the injectors off. I changed the flywheel and it started
No pay, no work
I’m in Maryland I’ll send you pico & amp clamps if you like give it a tri
Been thinking about you for couple days ive been there and know the feeling
That uneven crank sounds like a dead cylinder and I know it wasn’t but it sure sounds that way .
Warren. Could it be a pinched, swollen closed or collapsed fuel line ?.........Rick. Canonsburg, PA.
I feel your pain my friend,I started at age 27 as a mechanic for the USPS,back in the day we pulled a red knob and cable to shut down the engine,simple,didnt even need a battery to run,over 37 years we tried them all Mack Volvo Ford International ,every model a bigger pain in the ass.In my last few years no soft ware to use and take them to the dealer , check engine lites back on before I even made it back to our garage, International dealer just told me run them till they de rate ,they could not repair them .Then comes this Cummins knock off PACCAR, king of the DEF problems. Well, I retired cause I couldnt repair anything , best regards ,enjoy your vids
how come the paccar enstiens arent chimeing in about this someone knows !!!!!
You probably will make more money off changing that air bag then you will off that truck
What a mess
Seen low voltage cause all kinds of strange things
Interested if it would run on either or not
The company I used to work for here in the UK ran DAF trucks and basically if the batteries were low all sorts of warning lights would come on
Can 6ou put a clam0 on ammeter on the injector wires to see if getting current?
A bad set of batteries can sure drag down the voltage/amperage output even with boosting as they act like a sponge and won't let the power through. Also as I am sure you know, bad batteries cause starter/solenoid contacts arc/burn and end up having to change out the starter or at least solenoid as a result. This year I had struggles with my 2005 Pete with a C15, first the ECM shit the bed right on the scales of a seed cleaning plant ... truck was running and then it died as it sat there idling. Fortunately there is a well versed mechanic not far away and got him over there and he plugs in his laptop and said power is getting to your ECM but the ECM has shit the bed as its not communicating. He had a spare test ECM and put that on and it fires right up. When I had a chance I dropped the truck off to him and he put a reman ECM on and had to do some programming etc as the old ECM parameter info was corrupted. I asked what he though of its cranking speed and he said it was "ok" but not really what it could be. I had changed out the batteries four years prior ( 4 battery system ) and some months later I had some issues with slow cranking and I checked the tightness of the battery nuts and sure enough they were way too loose now and so I re-tighten and this went on and on with every so often having to re-tighten all the nuts on the batteries ... it was like the lead was soft and would not hold a torque. This spring after that ECM issue I checked the battery connections ... this fall just before harvest did it again. Well a few weeks later in close to the end of harvest the truck was giving fits because it would not restart sometimes after just having been run, would crank over ok but no sign of trying to fire ... piss around thinking the breaker in the cab for the ECM might be bad etc or its the ECM again or a crank sensor but anyway then it would decide to start a few minutes later. And then I think I finally figured it out, it was those darned battery connections once again and up to that point did not realize that the ECM gets its main power direct from the battery box with a 30 amp maxi fuse in the box ( its all under the passenger seat in this Pete, always saw the fuse but never knew what it powered ) as tightening the connections "again" which fixed the issue and the very lug that the positive wire for the ECM power feed fuse was really loose and my "uh huh" moment. I had also talked to that mechanic about the issue and my concern over not all that snappy of a cranking speed and he said bypass those two battery disconnects out of the system that the original owner had installed. I did that and wow, does it ever crank over a lot faster by ear now and that was with the very same batteries. Never the less I had enough of all that bull crap of the battery connections being loose every time I turned around so I installed four new batteries of a different brand and and it never missed a beat late in the fall hauling grain to the grain elevators. Its very possible that those batteries cost me that ECM failure due to low voltage from poor connections damaging it, I will never know that though.
Hi Warren. I used to measure the starter amps before deciding to replace starter or batteries. I had the Snap-On AVR that could inductive measure 3000 or so amps. After load testing each battery separately, I'd put the amp clamp as close to the starter as I could to measure the draw. The draw would initially spike at 1200-1500 amps cold (12V starter) and drop down to about 600-800 continuous cranking amps. Any more than that, and the starter is junk. If memory serves, the ECM should stay above 9V. at continuous cranking speed, 10 V would be better.
One i worked on starts with very weak batteries , when measuring voltage drop for slow cranking i found problems with short battery cables and oxidation ,measure voltage drop with ignition on in the battery box from each post to the other end ,few milliamps less than 5 is ok , lost or loose ground stands out ,i once had similar issue that got fix by adding ground wire to the ground side of the cam sensor ,stretched wires ,liquid in cam connectors can kill weak signals . Check the camshaft sensor connections and wiring, visually inspect for issues, and use a DAVIE monitor to check the cam-crank signal value when starting the engine ,if you can see what computer sees its much easier ,tone wheel backwards ? hitting one cylinder only...
I’m with ya Warren,you will succeed on this pos, you will benefit,I believe,Thks for keeping us up to date on this. I got 2 buddies that watched for the first time recently,I’m gonna hang in there.
Does that motor have a fluid damper on the crank ?
I had a problem with a freightliner not starting. Simular slow and uneven crank. Battery harness through chassis was the problem. Just old dirty cable conections. cheers and keep on with the vidios. Very informative.
Hi Warren I just wanted to take the time to say I really appreciate your content. So many TH-camrs become successful and no longer are relatable. One guy started making a bs racecar. I worked for a man like yourself for one summer. I really miss those days. God must have a place set for people like yourself.
Call Haggai Truck Center in Griffin Georgia. They are an independent shop that works on tons of trucks. They might have run into this problem before. They normally don't mind troubleshooting over the phone. I'd say call a paccar dealership but they wouldn't know as much as an independent shop.
When cracking, monitor common rail operating state, engine operating state, and engine mode might help. Wow this is a good case.
Last time I was working on a MX and fuel pressure (Relative) was below 5psi, the cause was a torn seal inside the fuel filter element.
Any possibility it could be an injector return pressure issue? I really know very little about that engine specifically, but some common rail diesels need positive pressure in injector return to fire injectors. If air is introduced into such a system, it can be almost impossible to get started without using shop air to slightly pressurize return circuit. I'm talking specifically about the lml duramax engine that uses piezoelectric injectors. Like I said it may not apply to this engine. Love your content man and sure hope you get it figured out soon!
I have been working on the PACCAR product and the MX engine since it came out ,,I have had that issue ,It is injectors,, Normally a cleanliness issue ,,It starts runs for a min if you lucky cuts out and doesn;t start again ,,He also has too high a rail pressure from what is demanded by the ECM ,And the Pump correction is in the high negative figures as the pumps are trying to lower the pressure ,So the fuel is at the injector as there is pressure ,it sounds like 1 or 2 injectors are working ,But he won't listen and is getting himself confused chasing things that are not there
@@norb0254 Did he mention that engine run with either cam or crank sensor disconnected ? I've seen a shorted pressure rail sensor bring down computer throwing multiple other codes , disconnected all sensor till engine resumed operation ,codes did little to no help in finding out the problem .
@@rovidius2006 if i remember correctly there is no codes .I think it initally started and then cut out and has not run since...He mention the ECM requested say 300 bar and there was 500 bar at the rail ( the figures i made up as i can not remember what he said they where ) and he had a high negative correction ..It does sound like 1 or 2 injectors are firing ..I have been working on these engines since they where launched back in i think 2006 when it had 6 pump units ,till todays common rail set up...The engines will run with either just a cam or crank sensor but he say his are synchronised when spinning it over..As a rule 99% of the time if you have no warnings/codes the electrics are ok ( there is always that 1 situation when you get no codes and it is electrical lol ) But with no codes active or stored ,that says to me it is a good old mechanical fault ..I have looked at the troubleshooting and from what he says for a non start especially after major work it is the injectors .I am in the uk dealer network and i am currently doing a camshaft a week i am currently on number 26 and have 2 waiting and have personally never had an issue ,it is all about cleanliness .putting caps on ports ,i strip and clean the filter housing before putting it back on
@@norb0254 Air locks ? fuel pressure relief valve should purge air out but if plugged injectors themselves would purge air out taking long cranking time ,air is springy ,some defects are sometimes never known unless someone notices them for some reason .
Hi Warren. Figured something was up. Kindest regards,Bill 🇨🇦🇨🇦
If it was a cranking speed issue would it not stay running after you hit it with starting fluid? As sensative as a common rail injector is im thinking they might be the problem
Did you eat that whole bag of Oreos?
So I’ve only seen it one time but try unhooking the exhaust pipe at the turbo and try to start it again. Had a maxxforce dt466 that had a dpf so plugged that it would crank slow and wouldn’t start tho it wanted to for just a second at the beginning of each crank cycle. Good luck. I know you’ll get it sooner than later
Been there,done that . I could get the engine to run and idle but the exhaust was 🔥 hot . The front can had collapsed in the front ,blocking the damn thing .