Thank you for reviewing something I never knew I wanted to learn about! Never really got into the Seahorses LP, but caught them live in NYC in 97. Back then, as a Yank, the only way to keep up with the UK scene was to buy NME & MM at Hudson news, then buy whatever CD seemed like it would be good, never even hearing the single! I remember thinking wow this guy is becoming a rock guitar god because his relentless attack overwhelmed any sense of a song. It was all about him. So funny to see this documentary back that feeling up. Best thing about it was Mansun opened, so I bought Grey Lantern without hearing a note and discovered one of the greatest bands ever! I will always thank JS for leading me to that!
Here's a sorry tale - April 96, JS went to 'The Mail Coach' pub in Rotherham 'looking for a drummer' (he'd gone to watch Paul Oliver, the son of Saxon's Graham Oliver, who was playing with a band called 'Bullrush', who'd recently been involved with myself as 'Beaker'). I'd just arrived in 'The Mail Coach' to meet my ex-drummer from my 80s band (The Way), Ian Deakin, as I'd just returned from two months in Los Angeles with a fistful of new songs - one of which I'd just recorded in Sheffield's Axis with my Best Man and former The Way-bassist Jonathan 'Stan' White. We had been there about ten minutes, stood at the bar, watching, in the almost empty pub, when I glanced over my shoulder... I turned to Ian, knowing that Squire had announced his departure from TSR that week on the cover of the NME.... "Ian, just look over my shoulder and tell me whether that's John Squire?" "Yep" I waited for the band to finish the number they were playing, and tapped JS on the arm... "Hi, I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you the gentleman who has just left a very famous band?" "Might be." I stretch out my hand to shake his, and am greeted by the limpest, coldest handshake I've ever been met with, and being a South Yorkshire lad I appreciate a firm one - I look into his eyes and am immediately convinced that if vampires do exist, Squire is one... still.... "My name is Tel, this is my friend Ian, [I lean in and whisper] the most solid drummer since Bonham..." [Ian gives him a quiet gesture of hello/respect], and my best mate is one of the finest bassists in the country. I sing, play guitar, piano, and write a good song occasionally..." Squire gives me a cocked eye... "...you know all four of us have met before, at Take Two in Attercliffe, around 87; we'd played the night before and were getting our gear out just as you got yours in - and I actually watched TSR rehearse for ten minutes one Sunday afternoon in The International" (I'd brought a demo for GE). Squire mumbles something, I can't quite make out. "Here's my number... I'll leave the decision to call with you, John". He takes the piece of paper, and we carry on watching the band... as the song ends I turn to John to ask him something regarding a mutual friend at Doncaster's Music Ground who was also there (Adrian Elderkin)... and he's gone!!! 'Mercurial' ain't the word. Needless to say, I never heard another thing... but the world has a funny way of turning... Cut to end of 1999, Stan has just had his first hits with Groove Armada, played with Robbie, so he was a gun for hire on his own terms, but his first love was... the Stone Roses. He literally adored them. To play for John Squire would be... well... I knew what his 'dream job' would be... replacing Mani (I think they're actually acquaintances now!). Sooo... if you think putting The Sea Horses together was tortuous... post-Sea Horses JS tried putting a band together with Simon Jones (who'd left The Verve) and a kid from Blackpool called Duncan, but when Simon quit, Stan got the call - and he was was completely loyal/discreet/professional from day one e.g. even though I'd see him a couple of times a week when he wasn't on tour/recording, we would rarely say about anything John's project, but I would get to hear (not 'get') all the demos, right from the earliest 'Trans-Atlantic Near Death Experience' stuff (sooo much better than the album versions - sounded like Highway61-era Dylan!). I attended that first solo gig in Birmingham and headed straight back home to Mexborough not particularly impressed (to me it all seemed so session musician-y, and the music press would smell that a mile off). Then we cut to... 2002: Stan - who's double-dipping between GA and Squire, though GA is his bread and butter - has an amazing wedding in a country house just outside Bristol, where we are all ensconced for the night, in the middle of nowhere... we're at the very casual reception in the hotel bar getting steadily pissed & stoned throughout the day, and JS is there... so I'm trying not to catch his eye... and then, later that evening, the inevitable karmic moment happens... the stars align, well, me and JS literally bump into each other - and I've had about five pints... "Now then, John..." [I lean right in and whisper in his ear] "...remember me?" "No, sorry". "Rotherham, April 96, the week you'd quit the Roses... someone introduced themselves, gave you his number, and told you he was best friends with one of the finest bassists in the world?" I pause. John thinks. It clicks. JS: "That was Stan?!" "Yep. Mad, right?". I gave him a wink and left for the bar (personally I think I dodged a bullet, knowing what I know, and thankfully spent 96-2000 recording with four amazing gents, who are my friends to this day - I'm still recording with Ian after 36 years). JS eventually joined us at our table later that evening... the highlight being my brother (who'd had a couple of e's and had earlier been in full Bez-mode) attempting to stay awake whilst JS was actually talking to him... it was sooo funny. After that I went to a few more shows and JS would discuss stuff like when The Way supported Strummer (who he was besotted with) on the Rock Against The Rich tour... but that's another story.... Sorry for the rant! Hope you enjoyed it. T.
Tell ,ice cold cube is what reni named Jon in later roses years as Ian wrote a song about it,but a journalist said he found Jon funny like trancing but warm as person maybe his mood changes ,did he sneer at you when he shook your hand ? A unfriendly look ?
@tell Sutton, as a Rotherham bloke who who was a teenager in 90s when the Manchester indie scene was at the height of its powers, your story is a fascinating read! The very thought of js ever visiting Rotherham let alone the mail coach is incredible 👏
@@waynesilverman3048 No, he wasn't unfriendly. Just keeps a distance; measured and thoughtful about everything he says really. When we actually got to sit down and talk in later years - I suppose after he found out Stan had been my Best Man in 96, and my own back story with The Way/The On/Electrascope - he was funny with a dead dry wit. You have to realise that everyone wanted a piece of this bloke - something I probably stand guilty of myself to an extent, though I was never one to look a gift horse in the gob.
Really enjoyed this, told the story extremely well. We've been fortunate enough to have had Chris, Stuart and Andy on the show several times over the years and I still learned something new!
A great essay, really well told. I love The Seahorses and I always will. Nothing lasts forever and you've just got to be thankful that we all got to enjoy a few years of them.
Fantastic insight into this great band James, brilliantly described. Thanks for sharing. It's amazing to hear the true reasons it fell apart and, there's generally more than meets the eye when good bands seperate.
Excellent that, real labour of love and superbly put together. So good that you formed a real critical analysis of what happened with considerable balance and deference.
I’ve always been a huge fan of The Seahorses album, but never backtracked to find out the history of the band. This video was perfect viewing to rectify this, thank you! My daughter actually supported Chris Helme when he played a solo gig in Hull, many moons ago. A really nice bloke!
Thanks for this video! I hope Do It Yourself gets a vinyl re-release someday. I saw The Seahorses with Mansun in San Francisco and thought they were amazing. Too bad Squire didn't truly appreciate how fortunate he was. So much comes down to luck and being in the right place at the right time and making the most of the chances you get.
You'll be happy to hear there's just been a recent repressing released by Music On Vinyl, who have previously released Stone Roses debut album, Turns Into Stone + Unfinished Monkey Business by Ian Brown. Just picked up a copy on Saturday & it sounds fantastic. :D
Thanks for this - frustrating story but cracking video. Spent many happy nights watching Chris and Stuart in The Yards - absolutely great fellas and great music too.
That was very interesting! I knew nothing of the band at all but I did buy their only album many years back. Watching your video made me grab it and play it in the car over the past few days and I had forgotten how much of it I loved! It's almost a forgotten classic!
What a brilliant history of this band! To add a little info, I saw the Seahorses live at the Warrington Parr Hall on 9th July 1998. It was announced at short notice as a warm up to their summer festival gigs (T in The Park followed next). What can I remember about that night? Apart from being a 15 year old budding guitarist completely in awe of Squire up on the right of the stage riffing away... well they came on stage much later than planned, much to everyone's annoyance, and they played a couple of new songs from the never released 2nd album. They opened with a new one with a really funky bass line, in a similar vein to the b-side "3 wide". I'm grateful to have seen them live, even if it was during a time when the wheels were about to fall off!
Was at that gig too...the only thing I can add is that they played the Northern Soul classic (the middle one of the legendary "Three before Eight" from Wigan Casino..."Long After Tonight Is All Over" by Jimmy Radcliffe in the warm up tape. And yes, they did keep us waiting.
Thanks so much, James. This seems to me a really exemplary video. The great thing about lots of accounts of bands from active musicians is that they’re passionate, involved, technically aware in ways that non-practitioner music critics sometimes aren’t. The weakness, often, is that they’re unscholarly: they mistake opinion for fact, aren’t impartial and don’t cite their sources. You manage here to give the outlook of a genuine enthusiast who’s fully aware of what’s involved technically and yet you provide a balanced account of the the interpersonal dynamics. And you cite your sources. Way to go! The part of this that struck me most was Chris Helme’s commentary on John’s playing too loud. As a gigging and recording musician who’s worked both as a singer without a guitar and as a guitarist who sings, I fully sympathise with what Chris says. It’s a real problem, not well understood by many non-singing guitarists, that in most live situations singers can’t adjust their onstage volume the way you can with a guitar. It’s a key skill for guitarists to turn down after solos or loud passages and for guitar-playing singers not to drown out their own vocals by turning up to compete with other instruments. Even with a separate stage-monitoring engineer, there’s nothing for vocals as responsive (and potentially lethal) as the volume knob(s) on a guitar. A guitarist who touches the settings on a mic’d up amp will likely doom the mix. When a band manages their onstage sound well it’s wonderful, both for the band and for the audience. When they don’t, band and audience will suffer. Your video brings this out vividly and is, imho, a genuine contribution to rock history as well as a beautifully told and interesting story.
Thanks Steve! I agree re on-stage volume. Being both a singer AND a guitarist, I know that as soon as my guitar is too loud, I'm singing like an idiot... and so I try to strike that balance between being able to hear myself to tune my singing accurately, but not being overwhelmingly loud. The biggest technological advance for me in that regard has been the advent of in ear monitoring in the past 25 years. I'd never go back now because now everyone can control their own mix from a phone or tablet, and no-one need come off stage with ringing ears!
Really enjoyed this, good work mate! Can't help feeling that Squire was one of the last great guitar heroes, he had not only great chops, but also great songs, great presentation, plus he had commercial appeal without sacrificing his integrity.
Thanks for this bud. Great watch. I was devastated when the Seahorses broke up. Was lucky enough to see one of the barrowland shows as a 16 year old, also caught them at TITP but less said about that performance the better. Still have all my CD singles including "you can talk to me" with the US Cav style badge. I do love John Squire but he can be hard to love. Thanks again. Appreciated.
Hi Derek - me too! I was absolutely gutted. I had actually called Geffen to nag and badger them about when the next seahorses album would be out, and they assured me the band were working on it (they must have been in Olympic at this point) and then just a few weeks later the NME frontpage said 'SEAHORSES SPLIT: ROSES TO REFORM?' and I was so massively disappointed. Hell of a band.
Nicely told story of one of underrated bands of the 90s. Spoken to Chris he's a gent a great songwriter. Wonder if being on different parts of the journey made it hard for him and John.
Fascinating glimpse at the inner workings of a dysfunctional band. I bought the album and loved Love Is The Law but would only describe myself as a casual fan. My sister, who isn’t nearly as enthusiastic as me about indie rock, absolutely loves Blinded By The Sun.
It's an interesting one is Do It Yourself. I absolutely loved it - but I think it was an album for guitarists really. The average listener would be middle-of-the-road about it, while guitarists raved haha
This is great mate.. Probably one of Mt fav guitarist. A beast of a player. Enjoyed your research mate and love the channel. Nice to find a likewise 90s brit pop fan 👍🏻
Loved this, brilliantly put together James! People say people change and mellow with age, well not so sure about that. Considering the character and make up of Brown, Squire and Reni in particular, it's a bit of a miracle that The Roses managed to hold it together and finish out a few years of reunion gigs. Hopefully that's them done for now or else it really will be a case of...........you're a slave to money then you die!
Brilliant documentary, I some how stumbled upon this.. very interesting listen as I didn’t know much about the breakup of the seahorses. DIY is a great album, and I quite like most of the tracks from the minus blue demos, especially 700 horses and Anamorphosis. Cheers mate
This is a great video. I managed to see them twice in the USA (Midwest) and Adge put us on the guestlist for one show. Got to hang out with the band a couple times and took loads of pics. I was too shy to say anything to John, but he seemed approachable. Adge was awesome! Anyway, in the video you mentioned that John traveled alone on a bus. Well, not when I saw them. I tried to follow them back to their hotel to see where they'd hang out after the show but they went off driving to their next show. In one van. All of them. When I saw them (I think it was 1997), they seemed to be having a good time. I thought their music was OK (no Roses) but then who are? Anyway, just wanted to add more context to the story here. Thanks!
....so well put together James, real eye opener, big Roses fan and seen The Seahorses a few times in Glasgow Barrowland, looking back on those performances Squire looks like his heads up his own area and when he went solo the singing was horrific, to think people used to give Ian Brown a hard time, anyway thanks for the video.
Cheers Lee. Yeah apparently the Barrowland performances were some of their absolute best. Pretty awesome. Squire's definitely a character yeah... I'm torn really because he is such a top notch musician, and also such an antisocial git hahahaha
My band was in the same studio in 97 where they recorded you can talk to me, riverside studios, Ossett, West Yorkshire, before taking it to LA to mix, we were recording our first real demos, and got to listen to the track for the first time with some guys from Geffen, the day we walked in and saw seahorses flight cases everywhere was something I’ll never forget, they were upstairs in the plush recording studio, we were in a rehearsal room doing pre production, so we banged out love is the law, and squire popped his head through the window smiling! We were next in the recording studio, so kept all the seahorses settings on the desk, happy days 🙏🙏🙏
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar it was a very surreal moment James! I do remember Ian Morrison the producer talking to the geffen guys how amazing sit on bass was, apparently he really stood out, used a trace Elliott stack, was a proper set up
You know what, I didn't either until I began researching it. It's really interesting finding the stuff the band members talked about in different interviews.
I bought the album around the time of it's release and thought it was ok. This article on the band is very interesting and paints the pucture of everything a band shouldn't be. I was in a very moderately successful band in the 90s/early-mid 2000s and we were a unit. We're still friends now and split because we all felt it had run it's course. I look at bands like Levellers and U2 who have had stable line ups throughout their vast careers and it cannnot be a coincidence that these bands are truly democratic and value each member equally. I've been to Levellers Beautiful Days festival and it is a WONDERFUL experience which is a truly family orientated festival. Bands very rarely work with one controlling ego and John Squire's biggest problem is that he isn't a vocalist or a front man so has no solo artist option, therefore he NEEDS to work with others, or at least a vocalist. For this to be successful he has to take on board and value the opinions and ideas of those who chooses to work with, which he seemed unable to do at the time, sadly. He is, however, in my opinion an astonishingly talented guitarist. As a footnote, we played at Pilton in 1995 with the Stone Roses and Dodgy. Dodgy were a hard working touring band who rehearsed their vocals in their tour bus back stage as a warm up, they were decent people too. Stone Roses seemed aloof and got their stage crew to do their soundcheck. They arrived in darkened windowed Mercs! They were decent enough live but Dodgy were more impressive. The band I was part of were called Bates Moteland we played before Dodgy.
I met Chris in Leeds in 2006 and asked him about the band. He said something like 'can't we talk about something else, mate?' with a huge grin. So we did for a couple of minutes. Really nice fella. Thanks for making this.
Really enjoyed this, I knew parts but now it makes sense. I’ve always admired John’s guitar playing and been to a few of his gigs over the years, Chris is excellent live too and I try to get to as many of his gigs too, I’ve met him briefly and he’s a top bloke.
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar when I seen John solo he was amazing on guitar (as usual) but his vocals were terrible, knowing what I know now he probably couldn’t hear himself over his own guitar 😂
@@JamesHargreavesGuitarWell i dont think Liam will take this kind of behaviour.And they already said they want to make a second album together.And them touring together hasnt even started!!!!🤣I read two reviews today about the album and they said it is very good.But who cares about reviews anyway????Whats The Story also got bad reviews at the time!!!!🤦♂️
Just rewatched this, didn't realise they did so well in the states. Just watched a few vids by them, that lead part at the end of Blinded by the sun is still fantastic to this day.
John Squire was a wonderful guitarist in the Stone Roses because he was 'only' 1/4 of the band. He was also 1/2 of a great songwriting partnership. They all made each other great because it was a mutually creative experience. He's not a good songwriter by himself as his solo albums have shown. When you bounce your ideas around and you're the only person involved in the decision-making process, it becomes an echo chamber. Some can thrive in that environment but Squire's ego, it seems, stopped him from playing to his strengths, which is as part of a collective. James, this was a fascinating video. I'm looking forward to more stuff like this!
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar can l just add this. Years ago, early Internet. I was in a chat room talking to someone called John Squires. I asked if he was the John Squires. And he said something like " what do you think?". Anyway we chatted for a while and l actually said " you are great. But you just take over!". Then l had to go get my tea. They were the last words l said. I've never forgotten it. Because l was sure it was him. True. I felt a bit guilty because l just left it like that with no explanation. When you say those exact words, my eyes popped out. 😆
I saw Seahorses perform at 1st Ave in Minneapolis. (Club from Purple Rain movie) Performed to half capacity audience of Roses fans. After the show we yelled “Thank you John” and he waved gratefully. His solo during “Love Is The Law” was euphoric. Roses never came to our city, so we were grateful to see John play live.
Nice! Yeah they never really fully cracked the States did they... I think they just didn't have enough time sadly. Had they kept going it might have been doable
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar I'm sure the small crowds were a harsh pill for John to swallow, but didn't seem to effect his performance. I went down rabbit hole of band interviews after your video. Chris' complaints about John's guitar being focus of the music. Imagine Robert Plant asking Jimmy to remove his solos. Ian Brown wasn't a big fan of "Rock guitar" music either, but he understood talent of his mates as being extraordinary.
@@Mnpctech_Giveaway_PC_Mods Yes, I have to agree, I think John’s guitar playing was the biggest thing that made their music extraordinary. However, in all honesty, I think Chris actually liked Johns playing, but what he didn’t like was playing second fiddle, and eventually his resentment of John got to the point that he hated everything associated with him, including any and all technical playing! It’s a shame really, because I do agree with Chris about the way John led the band, in a very very antisocial non-communicative way. But I can also see that in lots of ways John was right about the band musical direction. Just as in any of these situations, it’s not black-and-white is it! There’s always something to be said for both sides of the argument I suppose.
Enjoyed that, seahorses in my opinion released one of the finest debut albums ever. Regarding the demo’s of Minus Blue, the track “what can you see” is outstanding and should have been a massive hit 😎
Ive had some chats with Fletch over the years, a top man and an excellent bassist. We used to talk about bass gear a fair bit, he had some real nice stuff so its sad to hear he lost most of it (except the '73 Jazz he adores!) - he also sent me a copy of The Yards album in the post which is worth a listen.
Great work James, some mega songs and John is still the Guru on guitar 🎸 I would love to see em come back a bit older and wiser !!!! You can talk to me is still epic as is the album !!!
Superb video mate - very well researched. Once spoke to Helme after he played the Half Moon in Putney a few years ago - very nice guy. He does a great cover of Ooh La La by The Faces too.
I've had the pleasure of having Andy Watts Dep for our band Backlash here in South Devon. When the power cuts out Andy keeps the crowd entertained - with his clothes on!
Another excellent presentation! Interesting how Noel Gallagher is able to hold on to his High flying Birds but John couldn't hold on to his guys. And Noel's no pushover. If you don't respect your band mates and what they bring to the table then you've got nothing.
I can add to this story, me and my band where rehearsing at riverside studios in Ossett ,West Yorkshire, the seahorses used to Also rehearse there in the very early days , we listened to the new songs , and spent time in the local pub talking to John and Chris, when the seahorses wasn’t there, we used to secretly use there gear to rehears with as it was permanently set up in studio 1, I have great memories of this and that time.
Great video. I knew some of these things about the band, but not all the finer details. It appears there was a lot of drama and tension. I remember seeing them at V98. Good gig. Weirdly, the riff to ‘Love Is The Law’ is something I still find myself playing on guitar all the time, even though I haven’t listened to their album in years. I’ll have to see if I can find those demos of the second album! 😎🎸
I genuinely didn’t realise how much I wanted to see a mini documentary about this bloody band that I “kinda” liked when I was 13 😂 thanks, I loved it
Hahahahaha thanks for watching!
I had no idea Visconti was involved. Massive fan of his work with Bowie including their early albums.
Thank you for reviewing something I never knew I wanted to learn about!
Never really got into the Seahorses LP, but caught them live in NYC in 97. Back then, as a Yank, the only way to keep up with the UK scene was to buy NME & MM at Hudson news, then buy whatever CD seemed like it would be good, never even hearing the single!
I remember thinking wow this guy is becoming a rock guitar god because his relentless attack overwhelmed any sense of a song. It was all about him. So funny to see this documentary back that feeling up.
Best thing about it was Mansun opened, so I bought Grey Lantern without hearing a note and discovered one of the greatest bands ever!
I will always thank JS for leading me to that!
Here's a sorry tale - April 96, JS went to 'The Mail Coach' pub in Rotherham 'looking for a drummer' (he'd gone to watch Paul Oliver, the son of Saxon's Graham Oliver, who was playing with a band called 'Bullrush', who'd recently been involved with myself as 'Beaker').
I'd just arrived in 'The Mail Coach' to meet my ex-drummer from my 80s band (The Way), Ian Deakin, as I'd just returned from two months in Los Angeles with a fistful of new songs - one of which I'd just recorded in Sheffield's Axis with my Best Man and former The Way-bassist Jonathan 'Stan' White. We had been there about ten minutes, stood at the bar, watching, in the almost empty pub, when I glanced over my shoulder... I turned to Ian, knowing that Squire had announced his departure from TSR that week on the cover of the NME....
"Ian, just look over my shoulder and tell me whether that's John Squire?"
"Yep"
I waited for the band to finish the number they were playing, and tapped JS on the arm... "Hi, I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you the gentleman who has just left a very famous band?"
"Might be."
I stretch out my hand to shake his, and am greeted by the limpest, coldest handshake I've ever been met with, and being a South Yorkshire lad I appreciate a firm one - I look into his eyes and am immediately convinced that if vampires do exist, Squire is one... still....
"My name is Tel, this is my friend Ian, [I lean in and whisper] the most solid drummer since Bonham..." [Ian gives him a quiet gesture of hello/respect], and my best mate is one of the finest bassists in the country. I sing, play guitar, piano, and write a good song occasionally..."
Squire gives me a cocked eye...
"...you know all four of us have met before, at Take Two in Attercliffe, around 87; we'd played the night before and were getting our gear out just as you got yours in - and I actually watched TSR rehearse for ten minutes one Sunday afternoon in The International" (I'd brought a demo for GE).
Squire mumbles something, I can't quite make out.
"Here's my number... I'll leave the decision to call with you, John".
He takes the piece of paper, and we carry on watching the band... as the song ends I turn to John to ask him something regarding a mutual friend at Doncaster's Music Ground who was also there (Adrian Elderkin)... and he's gone!!! 'Mercurial' ain't the word. Needless to say, I never heard another thing... but the world has a funny way of turning...
Cut to end of 1999, Stan has just had his first hits with Groove Armada, played with Robbie, so he was a gun for hire on his own terms, but his first love was... the Stone Roses. He literally adored them. To play for John Squire would be... well... I knew what his 'dream job' would be... replacing Mani (I think they're actually acquaintances now!).
Sooo... if you think putting The Sea Horses together was tortuous... post-Sea Horses JS tried putting a band together with Simon Jones (who'd left The Verve) and a kid from Blackpool called Duncan, but when Simon quit, Stan got the call - and he was was completely loyal/discreet/professional from day one e.g. even though I'd see him a couple of times a week when he wasn't on tour/recording, we would rarely say about anything John's project, but I would get to hear (not 'get') all the demos, right from the earliest 'Trans-Atlantic Near Death Experience' stuff (sooo much better than the album versions - sounded like Highway61-era Dylan!). I attended that first solo gig in Birmingham and headed straight back home to Mexborough not particularly impressed (to me it all seemed so session musician-y, and the music press would smell that a mile off).
Then we cut to...
2002: Stan - who's double-dipping between GA and Squire, though GA is his bread and butter - has an amazing wedding in a country house just outside Bristol, where we are all ensconced for the night, in the middle of nowhere... we're at the very casual reception in the hotel bar getting steadily pissed & stoned throughout the day, and JS is there... so I'm trying not to catch his eye... and then, later that evening, the inevitable karmic moment happens... the stars align, well, me and JS literally bump into each other - and I've had about five pints...
"Now then, John..." [I lean right in and whisper in his ear] "...remember me?"
"No, sorry".
"Rotherham, April 96, the week you'd quit the Roses... someone introduced themselves, gave you his number, and told you he was best friends with one of the finest bassists in the world?"
I pause. John thinks. It clicks.
JS: "That was Stan?!"
"Yep. Mad, right?". I gave him a wink and left for the bar (personally I think I dodged a bullet, knowing what I know, and thankfully spent 96-2000 recording with four amazing gents, who are my friends to this day - I'm still recording with Ian after 36 years).
JS eventually joined us at our table later that evening... the highlight being my brother (who'd had a couple of e's and had earlier been in full Bez-mode) attempting to stay awake whilst JS was actually talking to him... it was sooo funny.
After that I went to a few more shows and JS would discuss stuff like when The Way supported Strummer (who he was besotted with) on the Rock Against The Rich tour... but that's another story....
Sorry for the rant! Hope you enjoyed it. T.
Very interesting! Thanks for the story!
Great story 👍🏻
Tell ,ice cold cube is what reni named Jon in later roses years as Ian wrote a song about it,but a journalist said he found Jon funny like trancing but warm as person maybe his mood changes ,did he sneer at you when he shook your hand ? A unfriendly look ?
@tell Sutton, as a Rotherham bloke who who was a teenager in 90s when the Manchester indie scene was at the height of its powers, your story is a fascinating read! The very thought of js ever visiting Rotherham let alone the mail coach is incredible 👏
@@waynesilverman3048 No, he wasn't unfriendly. Just keeps a distance; measured and thoughtful about everything he says really. When we actually got to sit down and talk in later years - I suppose after he found out Stan had been my Best Man in 96, and my own back story with The Way/The On/Electrascope - he was funny with a dead dry wit. You have to realise that everyone wanted a piece of this bloke - something I probably stand guilty of myself to an extent, though I was never one to look a gift horse in the gob.
That was a brilliant well researched 40 minutes , the seahorses where a great band 👏
Thanks! They were brilliant. I was a teen at the time and they were one of my favourites
Blinded by the sun was, and is, one of the greatest tracks ever.Including the orchestra was genius!
@shan Will do Shan cheers.Never knew that.😁👍
I was never really a fan of The Stone Roses but I really did like The Seahorses and saw them at the Kilburn National in London brilliant gig
Great documentary James, I've had the honour of supporting Chris - He's a top man who loves the fans
Yeah he's a top bloke
Really enjoyed this, told the story extremely well. We've been fortunate enough to have had Chris, Stuart and Andy on the show several times over the years and I still learned something new!
This is excellent! Thank you and well done James! I’d be thrilled with more of these.
Thanks Tyler! These long ones are an absolute bugger to make, but there will be more to come in the future :)
This is totally amazing. Watched the whole thing and sent it on to friends!
Excellent! Thanks David. Share the love...
A great essay, really well told. I love The Seahorses and I always will. Nothing lasts forever and you've just got to be thankful that we all got to enjoy a few years of them.
Fantastic insight into this great band James, brilliantly described. Thanks for sharing. It's amazing to hear the true reasons it fell apart and, there's generally more than meets the eye when good bands seperate.
Thanks TS, glad you enjoyed
Great video James, I agree it's a great album. I feel lucky to have grown up in a era of such great bands.
Real quality work Bredda. Keep them coming. Appreciate you 🙏
Excellent that, real labour of love and superbly put together. So good that you formed a real critical analysis of what happened with considerable balance and deference.
Thanks Ieuan - I still love the Seahorses. One of my favourite bands of the 90s, no question
I’ve always been a huge fan of The Seahorses album, but never backtracked to find out the history of the band. This video was perfect viewing to rectify this, thank you! My daughter actually supported Chris Helme when he played a solo gig in Hull, many moons ago. A really nice bloke!
Excellent! Yeah everyone seems to love Chris haha
Watched this when you posted, but just got round to posting a comment on how much I enjoyed it. A facinating band for a whole host of reasons.
Hey N H, thanks for watching!
Yeah I still love their stuff. Still got the album in my car right now in fact...
This was fascinating! Cheers James! This channel is far more than a guitarist’s haven. Keep up the good work 👍🏻
Thanks william, will do :) 🎸🎸👍👍
Thanks for this video! I hope Do It Yourself gets a vinyl re-release someday. I saw The Seahorses with Mansun in San Francisco and thought they were amazing. Too bad Squire didn't truly appreciate how fortunate he was. So much comes down to luck and being in the right place at the right time and making the most of the chances you get.
You'll be happy to hear there's just been a recent repressing released by Music On Vinyl, who have previously released Stone Roses debut album, Turns Into Stone + Unfinished Monkey Business by Ian Brown. Just picked up a copy on Saturday & it sounds fantastic. :D
Was introduced to these about 14 years ago by a friend much older then me. I was around 18 at the time. Great album and great video James.
Cheers Ricky 👍👍
Yeah I love them
I’d love to see one of these for OCS! That’s another great story to tell
Cool, sounds like an interesting idea. I love OCS
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar and maybe look at Steve Craddocks guitar work with OCS and Weller?
@@michaelholmes9874 definitely!
They were good too
There story is not over as they are still going
This was awesome! Thanks so much man.
Cheers Bob! More than welcome
Thanks for this - frustrating story but cracking video. Spent many happy nights watching Chris and Stuart in The Yards - absolutely great fellas and great music too.
Cheers Michael
Yeah they’re decent guys 👍👍
Incredible work man, what a treat this is.
Thanks for watching! Took me bloody AGES this one
Excellent work that brought back great memories of a great album. Well done
Thanks! I still love their album, got it in my car right now in fact
Great video. Thanks for making it!
Cheers Tom, my pleasure
That was very interesting! I knew nothing of the band at all but I did buy their only album many years back. Watching your video made me grab it and play it in the car over the past few days and I had forgotten how much of it I loved! It's almost a forgotten classic!
What a brilliant history of this band! To add a little info, I saw the Seahorses live at the Warrington Parr Hall on 9th July 1998. It was announced at short notice as a warm up to their summer festival gigs (T in The Park followed next). What can I remember about that night? Apart from being a 15 year old budding guitarist completely in awe of Squire up on the right of the stage riffing away... well they came on stage much later than planned, much to everyone's annoyance, and they played a couple of new songs from the never released 2nd album. They opened with a new one with a really funky bass line, in a similar vein to the b-side "3 wide". I'm grateful to have seen them live, even if it was during a time when the wheels were about to fall off!
Nice! I wish I could've seen them. Was too skint at the time sadly
Wish I had been there!!
Was at that gig too...the only thing I can add is that they played the Northern Soul classic (the middle one of the legendary "Three before Eight" from Wigan Casino..."Long After Tonight Is All Over" by Jimmy Radcliffe in the warm up tape. And yes, they did keep us waiting.
Thanks so much, James. This seems to me a really exemplary video. The great thing about lots of accounts of bands from active musicians is that they’re passionate, involved, technically aware in ways that non-practitioner music critics sometimes aren’t. The weakness, often, is that they’re unscholarly: they mistake opinion for fact, aren’t impartial and don’t cite their sources. You manage here to give the outlook of a genuine enthusiast who’s fully aware of what’s involved technically and yet you provide a balanced account of the the interpersonal dynamics. And you cite your sources. Way to go! The part of this that struck me most was Chris Helme’s commentary on John’s playing too loud. As a gigging and recording musician who’s worked both as a singer without a guitar and as a guitarist who sings, I fully sympathise with what Chris says. It’s a real problem, not well understood by many non-singing guitarists, that in most live situations singers can’t adjust their onstage volume the way you can with a guitar. It’s a key skill for guitarists to turn down after solos or loud passages and for guitar-playing singers not to drown out their own vocals by turning up to compete with other instruments. Even with a separate stage-monitoring engineer, there’s nothing for vocals as responsive (and potentially lethal) as the volume knob(s) on a guitar. A guitarist who touches the settings on a mic’d up amp will likely doom the mix. When a band manages their onstage sound well it’s wonderful, both for the band and for the audience. When they don’t, band and audience will suffer. Your video brings this out vividly and is, imho, a genuine contribution to rock history as well as a beautifully told and interesting story.
Thanks Steve! I agree re on-stage volume. Being both a singer AND a guitarist, I know that as soon as my guitar is too loud, I'm singing like an idiot... and so I try to strike that balance between being able to hear myself to tune my singing accurately, but not being overwhelmingly loud. The biggest technological advance for me in that regard has been the advent of in ear monitoring in the past 25 years. I'd never go back now because now everyone can control their own mix from a phone or tablet, and no-one need come off stage with ringing ears!
Great work on this, I never knew much about this band, but I really like John Squire's playing. Thank you!
Really enjoyed this, good work mate! Can't help feeling that Squire was one of the last great guitar heroes, he had not only great chops, but also great songs, great presentation, plus he had commercial appeal without sacrificing his integrity.
Yeah Squire is a hell of a player. Interesting personality, very reclusive - but hey, many of the greats are that way
If Hendrix was alive today I think the only man he would tune in to would be JS
Yes but let's be honest he sounds like a right dickhead if what's said is all true.
Another belter, thanks James.
Thanks for this bud. Great watch. I was devastated when the Seahorses broke up. Was lucky enough to see one of the barrowland shows as a 16 year old, also caught them at TITP but less said about that performance the better. Still have all my CD singles including "you can talk to me" with the US Cav style badge. I do love John Squire but he can be hard to love. Thanks again. Appreciated.
Hi Derek - me too! I was absolutely gutted. I had actually called Geffen to nag and badger them about when the next seahorses album would be out, and they assured me the band were working on it (they must have been in Olympic at this point) and then just a few weeks later the NME frontpage said 'SEAHORSES SPLIT: ROSES TO REFORM?' and I was so massively disappointed. Hell of a band.
Great well researched video fella!
Born and still living in York The Seahorses are always of interest to me...Great band!
Cheers Mark. I'm just an hour outside of York, so as a fellow Yorkshireman I feel very proud of them myself
Thanks for that, it was really interesting, I found the second album on TH-cam and it’s such a shame it didn’t get finished.
Great video, thank you.
Amazing research. Thx a lot, James.
Glad you enjoyed it!
That was awesome thank you 🙏
Great video mate, found your channel a couple of weeks ago because I was learning love is the law and then this - nice one!
Thanks Sam and welcome!
Fascinating story, and well worth the listen!
Fascinating - great research and insight - thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
Great stuff. Thanks for all the info.
More than welcome!
Thanks for this video.
Nicely told story of one of underrated bands of the 90s. Spoken to Chris he's a gent a great songwriter. Wonder if being on different parts of the journey made it hard for him and John.
Yeah Chris is a nice fella definitely
Fascinating glimpse at the inner workings of a dysfunctional band. I bought the album and loved Love Is The Law but would only describe myself as a casual fan. My sister, who isn’t nearly as enthusiastic as me about indie rock, absolutely loves Blinded By The Sun.
It's an interesting one is Do It Yourself. I absolutely loved it - but I think it was an album for guitarists really. The average listener would be middle-of-the-road about it, while guitarists raved haha
This is great mate.. Probably one of Mt fav guitarist. A beast of a player. Enjoyed your research mate and love the channel. Nice to find a likewise 90s brit pop fan 👍🏻
Thanks Steven and welcome! Yeah agreed - Mr Squire was (and is) a beast on the guitar
Loved this, brilliantly put together James! People say people change and mellow with age, well not so sure about that. Considering the character and make up of Brown, Squire and Reni in particular, it's a bit of a miracle that The Roses managed to hold it together and finish out a few years of reunion gigs. Hopefully that's them done for now or else it really will be a case of...........you're a slave to money then you die!
Yeah, I agree
Give me an album or even EP as good as the self titled ablbum or Second Coming even and they can be slaves to money without complaint from me.
Really enjoyed this. Thanks
You're welcome!
Really well done, thanks
Many thanks!
Absolutely loved this band at the time. Could still listen to their album now from start to finish unlike some of the music being promoted today xx
Yeah me too! Got it in my car right now!
Brilliant documentary, I some how stumbled upon this.. very interesting listen as I didn’t know much about the breakup of the seahorses. DIY is a great album, and I quite like most of the tracks from the minus blue demos, especially 700 horses and Anamorphosis. Cheers mate
Very well put together! I remember those times well
This is a great video. I managed to see them twice in the USA (Midwest) and Adge put us on the guestlist for one show. Got to hang out with the band a couple times and took loads of pics. I was too shy to say anything to John, but he seemed approachable. Adge was awesome! Anyway, in the video you mentioned that John traveled alone on a bus. Well, not when I saw them. I tried to follow them back to their hotel to see where they'd hang out after the show but they went off driving to their next show. In one van. All of them. When I saw them (I think it was 1997), they seemed to be having a good time. I thought their music was OK (no Roses) but then who are? Anyway, just wanted to add more context to the story here. Thanks!
Great video! I saw the Seahorses in Cambridge in 1997 and still wear the t shirt I bought at the merch stand pretty regularly.
Excellent! I still have the cd in my car. Never gets old somehow
really enjoyed this. love your content. cheers
How on earth did I watch all of this? Full marks, great stuff.
Iv watched all your documentary’s now there absolutely great defo need more like this and Tony Mccarol’s one
great video, brilliant album, i had no idea of the background to it.. fascinating watch
Thanks Baz - agreed, its an amazing record. Thanks for watching
Great work James!!
Cheers Mike!
I really enjoyed this random find on YT. Great guitar lessons too.
....so well put together James, real eye opener, big Roses fan and seen The Seahorses a few times in Glasgow Barrowland, looking back on those performances Squire looks like his heads up his own area and when he went solo the singing was horrific, to think people used to give Ian Brown a hard time, anyway thanks for the video.
....heads up his own arse....
Cheers Lee. Yeah apparently the Barrowland performances were some of their absolute best. Pretty awesome.
Squire's definitely a character yeah... I'm torn really because he is such a top notch musician, and also such an antisocial git hahahaha
Great video james, fantastic channel
Cheers Mark and welcome!
Excellent and insightful.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fast becoming my favourite channel
My band was in the same studio in 97 where they recorded you can talk to me, riverside studios, Ossett, West Yorkshire, before taking it to LA to mix, we were recording our first real demos, and got to listen to the track for the first time with some guys from Geffen, the day we walked in and saw seahorses flight cases everywhere was something I’ll never forget, they were upstairs in the plush recording studio, we were in a rehearsal room doing pre production, so we banged out love is the law, and squire popped his head through the window smiling! We were next in the recording studio, so kept all the seahorses settings on the desk, happy days 🙏🙏🙏
Nice! That's very cool.
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar it was a very surreal moment James! I do remember Ian Morrison the producer talking to the geffen guys how amazing sit on bass was, apparently he really stood out, used a trace Elliott stack, was a proper set up
Thanks! That was top!
Cheers Michael, you're welcome
Great video❤️ didn't know most of this
You know what, I didn't either until I began researching it. It's really interesting finding the stuff the band members talked about in different interviews.
Nicely put together piece.
Thanks John 👍👍👍
I bought the album around the time of it's release and thought it was ok.
This article on the band is very interesting and paints the pucture of everything a band shouldn't be.
I was in a very moderately successful band in the 90s/early-mid 2000s and we were a unit. We're still friends now and split because we all felt it had run it's course.
I look at bands like Levellers and U2 who have had stable line ups throughout their vast careers and it cannnot be a coincidence that these bands are truly democratic and value each member equally.
I've been to Levellers Beautiful Days festival and it is a WONDERFUL experience which is a truly family orientated festival.
Bands very rarely work with one controlling ego and John Squire's biggest problem is that he isn't a vocalist or a front man so has no solo artist option, therefore he NEEDS to work with others, or at least a vocalist. For this to be successful he has to take on board and value the opinions and ideas of those who chooses to work with, which he seemed unable to do at the time, sadly. He is, however, in my opinion an astonishingly talented guitarist.
As a footnote, we played at Pilton in 1995 with the Stone Roses and Dodgy. Dodgy were a hard working touring band who rehearsed their vocals in their tour bus back stage as a warm up, they were decent people too.
Stone Roses seemed aloof and got their stage crew to do their soundcheck. They arrived in darkened windowed Mercs!
They were decent enough live but Dodgy were more impressive.
The band I was part of were called Bates Moteland we played before Dodgy.
Very interesting re the Roses in 95. And I love Dodgy hahaha awesome stoner band
Excellent insights & research, thanks for telling it so well... it's a bit heart breaking to hear but truth often is.
I met Chris in Leeds in 2006 and asked him about the band. He said something like 'can't we talk about something else, mate?' with a huge grin. So we did for a couple of minutes. Really nice fella. Thanks for making this.
Hi Roger, thanks for sharing. Yeah Chris is a nice bloke 👍👍
@@sratus Hi, John. do you dislike anecdotes as much, more, or less than your ex bandmates?
Funny 😂
@@sratus Instruments.
Really enjoyed this, I knew parts but now it makes sense.
I’ve always admired John’s guitar playing and been to a few of his gigs over the years, Chris is excellent live too and I try to get to as many of his gigs too, I’ve met him briefly and he’s a top bloke.
Thanks. Yeah I’ve met Chris but not John, would have loved to have seen Squire live
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar when I seen John solo he was amazing on guitar (as usual) but his vocals were terrible, knowing what I know now he probably couldn’t hear himself over his own guitar 😂
@@JamesHargreavesGuitarWell i dont think Liam will take this kind of behaviour.And they already said they want to make a second album together.And them touring together hasnt even started!!!!🤣I read two reviews today about the album and they said it is very good.But who cares about reviews anyway????Whats The Story also got bad reviews at the time!!!!🤦♂️
James, great video mate
Great video man!
Cheers Conor! This one took FOREVER to make
Splendid work, sir.
Many thanks :)
I mean it, mate. Well researched, informative, and balanced. Many thanks.
Just rewatched this, didn't realise they did so well in the states. Just watched a few vids by them, that lead part at the end of Blinded by the sun is still fantastic to this day.
Wow. Great job!
Thanks Matt
John Squire was a wonderful guitarist in the Stone Roses because he was 'only' 1/4 of the band. He was also 1/2 of a great songwriting partnership. They all made each other great because it was a mutually creative experience. He's not a good songwriter by himself as his solo albums have shown. When you bounce your ideas around and you're the only person involved in the decision-making process, it becomes an echo chamber. Some can thrive in that environment but Squire's ego, it seems, stopped him from playing to his strengths, which is as part of a collective.
James, this was a fascinating video. I'm looking forward to more stuff like this!
Great thanks for watching :)
This was amazing insight in the best guitarist of our generation
Thanks!
I thank God For the gift of seeing that tour. A moment I will never forget
One of my Top albums of All Time!! It's a Masterpiece!
It is a top record. Love it
Superb video 👏👏👏👏
Seen Seahorses support Beck in Dublin ( late 90’s ) good times.
This is brilliant.
Thanks for watching :)
What a great video.
DIY. One of my favourite albums. Stonking. Thanks for this. Excellent.
My pleasure!
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar can l just add this. Years ago, early Internet. I was in a chat room talking to someone called John Squires. I asked if he was the John Squires. And he said something like " what do you think?". Anyway we chatted for a while and l actually said " you are great. But you just take over!". Then l had to go get my tea. They were the last words l said. I've never forgotten it. Because l was sure it was him. True. I felt a bit guilty because l just left it like that with no explanation. When you say those exact words, my eyes popped out. 😆
Great video. Very informative.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Good vid by the way. Thank you.
Loved this.
I saw Seahorses perform at 1st Ave in Minneapolis. (Club from Purple Rain movie) Performed to half capacity audience of Roses fans. After the show we yelled “Thank you John” and he waved gratefully. His solo during “Love Is The Law” was euphoric. Roses never came to our city, so we were grateful to see John play live.
Nice! Yeah they never really fully cracked the States did they... I think they just didn't have enough time sadly. Had they kept going it might have been doable
@@JamesHargreavesGuitar I'm sure the small crowds were a harsh pill for John to swallow, but didn't seem to effect his performance. I went down rabbit hole of band interviews after your video. Chris' complaints about John's guitar being focus of the music. Imagine Robert Plant asking Jimmy to remove his solos. Ian Brown wasn't a big fan of "Rock guitar" music either, but he understood talent of his mates as being extraordinary.
@@Mnpctech_Giveaway_PC_Mods Yes, I have to agree, I think John’s guitar playing was the biggest thing that made their music extraordinary. However, in all honesty, I think Chris actually liked Johns playing, but what he didn’t like was playing second fiddle, and eventually his resentment of John got to the point that he hated everything associated with him, including any and all technical playing!
It’s a shame really, because I do agree with Chris about the way John led the band, in a very very antisocial non-communicative way. But I can also see that in lots of ways John was right about the band musical direction.
Just as in any of these situations, it’s not black-and-white is it! There’s always something to be said for both sides of the argument I suppose.
This is excellent. Chris Hulmes made a lot of the same comments about working with Squire that Ian Brown did. Says a lot.
Enjoyed that James always rated the group and wondered why they split so early
Cheers
Cheers Paul. Yeah, a massive shame that they didn't do more
Enjoyed that, seahorses in my opinion released one of the finest debut albums ever.
Regarding the demo’s of Minus Blue, the track “what can you see” is outstanding and should have been a massive hit 😎
I’ve always thought this about What Can You See, great track! the verse reminds me of Bob Dylan’s Like a Rolling Stone
Cheers Darren. Yeah I love Do It Yourself and the Minus Blue demos
They played What Can You See at a warm up show at Bristol Bierkeller and I remember thinking this track is going to make them huge.
Ive had some chats with Fletch over the years, a top man and an excellent bassist. We used to talk about bass gear a fair bit, he had some real nice stuff so its sad to hear he lost most of it (except the '73 Jazz he adores!) - he also sent me a copy of The Yards album in the post which is worth a listen.
Great work James, some mega songs and John is still the Guru on guitar 🎸
I would love to see em come back a bit older and wiser !!!!
You can talk to me is still epic as is the album !!!
Yeah I still love their stuff. That album is still one of my favourites. Not a dud track on it in my view
Thank you for this doc, really enjoyed it. Would you do a doc on Black Grapes?
Superb video mate - very well researched. Once spoke to Helme after he played the Half Moon in Putney a few years ago - very nice guy. He does a great cover of Ooh La La by The Faces too.
Cool! Yeah he's a top bloke
Seen them at T in the Park, enjoyed your breakdown, thanks.
You're very welcome
Really enjoyed this.. And would love you to do more of this type of video if possible.. The La's next?
Yep, loads of people have requested the La’s, already started researching 👍👍
I've had the pleasure of having Andy Watts Dep for our band Backlash here in South Devon.
When the power cuts out Andy keeps the crowd entertained - with his clothes on!
Hahahahah excellent!
Another excellent presentation! Interesting how Noel Gallagher is able to hold on to his High flying Birds but John couldn't hold on to his guys. And Noel's no pushover. If you don't respect your band mates and what they bring to the table then you've got nothing.
I can add to this story, me and my band where rehearsing at riverside studios in Ossett ,West Yorkshire, the seahorses used to Also rehearse there in the very early days , we listened to the new songs , and spent time in the local pub talking to John and Chris, when the seahorses wasn’t there, we used to secretly use there gear to rehears with as it was permanently set up in studio 1, I have great memories of this and that time.
Great video.
I knew some of these things about the band, but not all the finer details. It appears there was a lot of drama and tension.
I remember seeing them at V98. Good gig.
Weirdly, the riff to ‘Love Is The Law’ is something I still find myself playing on guitar all the time, even though I haven’t listened to their album in years.
I’ll have to see if I can find those demos of the second album! 😎🎸
Yeah Love Is The Law is a classic British Blues riff. Love it