An interesting and no-doubt very typical example of coming to terms with used narrowboat electronics when you want to actually use the thing as a CC. Looking forward to watching the rest of your vlogs on this.
The last 5 min of video talking about George and the bloopers, absolutely hilarious! I really enjoyed it, and George is so adorable and I'm glad he doesn't eat children♡
Thank you Michael you have made me feel LOTS more comfortable just saying NO to beer on my next trip to the UK. I gave up the stuff a long time ago. I have a narrowboat trip scheduled next year, and when offered, I am just going to say I want some of that nice cool fizzy pink stuff. Easy does it on the back.
Hi - just to say - really enjoy watching your videos. We live about 2 mins from the really low Pondtail Bridge on the Basingstoke canal so especially liked that one. Recognised most of it. Good luck on your travels - hope the electric stuff all goes well !
Nicely put together. Yes measuring current consumption with meters can be quite the task. Unfortunately most vendor documentation only lists new steady state consumption and does not show startup surges and effects of aging on power consumption.
I've only recently discovered your channel and I'm really enjoying it. One thing I noticed in this video is that Micheal often used the word potential which really made me chuckle as 'potential difference' is another term for voltage. I'm not sure the usage was intentional but it was very, very appropriate.
What kind of bird were you talking about? I am so glad you are doing these videos regarding the electrical system on your narrowboat! My wife and I are planning on living aboard a houseboat by this time next year... and electrical issues have been a concern of mine as we look to purchase a boat. Thanks to you guys, we have developed a check-list of questions that we take along with each boat we view!
+David Russell round here it's the coot (small waiting bird, white beak) and the moorhen (slightly smaller, red beak)... both of these may as well be tennis balls. We're learning along the way, glad putting up some of this is helping! There will be more to come! M
Did your survey identify the needy state of the electrics on board so that you could make allowance in your costings? Love seeing George adding his bit to the updates btw
+miteor No, the survey didn't identify any of these issues, nor did it really touch on them. The batteries were inaccessible, and the survey won't go into areas that can't be reached or viewed relatively easily, while the others were more subtle. The leaks also weren't identified in the survey, which is mainly focused on major hull and structural issues. M
+Nick It is, but they focus on leaks in the hull itself. The survey's primary focus is on the hull at and below the waterline, as that's like 90% of your purchase, and if it's got a leak in it then a few leaks in the roof won't mean much, as you'll be on the bottom. The surveyor did a quite thorough inspection of the engine, transmission, and all the natural points at which there are through-hull fittings, but their primary concern is that you'll stay afloat. He took a good long look at the inner woodwork, and like us did notice the few spots of minor water damage, but unfortunately those don't go a long way to telling you what's still happening underneath if there's a sign the previous owner did a fix (even a bodged one). He couldn't do more than a cursory inspection of the internal appliances, they all worked and there was no obvious gas leaks or electrical faults. And of course the batteries were charged up from the trip to the dry dock. So the rest is what we discovered during actual usage, post survey. Honestly the whole process is a bit Wild West, where they may have given the horse a good polish and some false teeth and hope you don't notice. There really should be a more formal process, registration and proof of transfer documents, and all the usual protections that come with purchasing other vehicles, but that bureaucracy doesn't exist, so this is what we've got as a system, I'm afraid. M
Is your steel hull acting as the 'earth' in your system or are all the wires just going to battery and 'floating' ?Is earthing covered in the LiPO video?
Essentially there is no "Earth" on a floating boat, but ultimately there is a "Ground" connection that indeed does go to a stud on the hull. With DC this is sufficient on its own. When an AC ring is installed it's also "earthed" to that "Ground" terminal, but through a galvanic isolator. Really where this all becomes important is when you're connected to a shore line, as the shore line earth will also be connected to the hull, allowing everything to find its way to actual Earth and ensuring there's no difference in potential as you step off and on. M
who ever did the wiring on your boat it must be the madman who owned my landy defender 90 before me. I took a look at the connections on my one reversing light there were 2 connected 12 spaded and loose lol. btw great vid
Great video you guys, looks like you are getting to know your boat more even if it is full of spaghetti, but i am sure you will sort that out. Bad connections and poor wiring will make the load on your 12v supply heavy, like the old saying "low voltage = high amperage. Oh we are never too old to learn new things, like conkers on the roof lol.
+darran newman Yeah we're losing a lot to the spaghetti, and to poor choices in cable thicknesses to begin with. Some of it, though, will be impossible to fix unless we tear all the tongue and groove off, and we're a long way from that. So mainly we've been tracing and labeling and trying to tackle it one noodle at a time! M
Interesting video, my experience of 12V DC is when the. battery gets to 70% or 8.4V the alternator won't charge them above 70%. They need to be replaced! I know you already did this cause I just watched your lithium vid. If possible can we have less talk of inverters, laptops and other techy stuff and more talk about George?
+Mark White This would be why we undid all of that and redid what we could. Couldn't change all the cable runs, but did replace bad connectors, labeled everything, and got in some bus bars to do the distribution in a smarter fashion. Still worried about fire risk, mind you. Just less worried. M
My wife is from England and I have lived in Texas the past 23 years. She keeps saying that you two remind her of us camping, especially the bloopers. One day she asked me as we were traveling why birds did not get shocked when that sat on the wires. I told her that they either had to touch another wire also or be grounded. She replied "What would happen if they were sitting the wire and touched the ground?" With a straight face I replied "That would be a tall bird Honey." We still laugh about it. We both keep journals everyday while travelling.
+Bob814u A really tall -- or tragically lopsided -- ex-bird, in that case! Glad you're enjoying these from so far afield from English canals and weather! Cheers! M
+J P Not much further, we've stayed stuck in the Redding to Newbury area as we gather all the requirements for the electric switchover and solar, with all that's left now being the solar panel mounting. Had a bit of an accident two days ago, though, and still recuperating, so not moved on anything in the last 72. M
Minimal List Good to hear from you, hoping your incapacity and spaghetti are soon in shape. While you're laid up, a quick electrics tale for you that might be of benefit. Restoring an old land rover the brake lights refused to come on. With a volt meter I checked every part of the circuits, the volt meter even showing volts at the light sockets when the brake pedal was pressed, but still no lights with the bulbs inserted. A lot of head scratching later and starting to doubt the laws of physics............one of the wiring bullet joints had sufficient connection to pass the volt meter test current but would fail with the current load of the bulbs. And then with bulbs removed show as good again with the volt meter. Not one you're likely to come across, but just in case.......Regards Jim.
I look forward to future videos on your narrowboat conversion over to solar. I must admit all the numbers and k's. W's and h's mixed in with amperage and watts makes my brain hurt but hopefully the more I read, watch and listen it will slowly trickle in my thick skull. Even though quite an amateur on the subject I am mostly convinced that a fully (nearly) electric narrowboat is a possibility. With the occasional use of a petrol or diesel generator to help out. The boat would need a large battery pack from a Nissan Leaf or similar, a motor from a used fork lift or similar and very large solar bank, but me thinks it could be done. I would guess a full charge would get you ~20 miles on a canal. You may have done the math on this already, if so, can it be done? : ) Now onto dogs. Pulling on leash problem. Have him sit at your left, on leash, say HEEL as you proceed to walk slowly begininning with your left foot. His head should advance no further than your left knee. Take three or four steps and stop with a HUP. Hold on tight to a short length of leash from the collar or harness with your left hand. He will keep going until the slack comes to an end. Now writing this, it sounds harsh but you are walking slowly. The one thing he wants to do is keep going and if that stops when you stop he will soon learn to stop when you do. Don't move your position, guide him back around to your left and get him in the sit position. Repeat. It only takes a very short time for him to learn, a walk of fifty yards, really. First time he stops when you stop let the high pitched praising flow. He will need reminders now and then. This was the way I learned it back many moons ago so techniques may have changed some. If you can find videos of Uncle Matty dog trainer he's got some, I think, good techniques.
+lostinthekerf There are actually some fully electric narrowboats, and even an electric narrowboat association that we saw handing out leaflets, though I didn't grab more details. There are also hybrid drive systems becoming quite popular in new boats, but retrofitting is incredibly expensive unless your engine has totally shot itself. The biggest problemk is the batteries, because for full electric I believe you need to go to at least a 24V system if not 48V, which means an awful lot of room for batteries as ballast.
+lostinthekerf As for dog advice, we are doing exactly that (well, Jo is, with my recent head conk I'm out of the game), but he basically never stops pulling ahead immediately as soon as your body language indicates forward motion. Patience of an un-mated mayfly, this one! We're looking at alternatives like the Halti or clicker training, as his last remaining problem really is the inability to reliably heel. M
Wow, The Electric Boat Association is a treasure trove of info. Lots of history and links to other electric boating sites. Thank You! I envision in the immediate future more and more narrowboats adding on elec. trolling motors powered by solar and more and more battery storage filled by solar panels for night time needs. New boats going, as is already happening, with hybrid first and finally all solar with large battery banks as ballast. I am an outsider looking in on this but to me silent clean running is congruent with the current narrowboat way of life. And it's getting cheaper! I have heard some narrowboat tubers verbalize their dismay at being alongside or near another narrowboat that is running their Diesel engine well into the night to power various appliances. This is what partially awoke my interest in an electric option for full time operation. Get well soon.
: ) Well, hmm. He'll come around, maybe. There is a saying you've probably heard, " A tired dog is a good dog." So possibly a short training session after he is nearly totally tuckered out, if he ever gets to that point. Cheers!
Good video and a great project. I know you have done the best you can in estimating power draw on the various loads and this comment is in no way criticism - I am surprised at the figures for the fridge, it's either very small or it's uber efficient. Most sailors (yachts) are acutely aware that the fridge is the major load on their distribution board. Given the state of the wiring it is also likely you have circuits with significant voltage drop at the load so your amperage draw is likely to be higher than the makers plate would suggest. Are you going to rip out and start again with the wiring or is that something for a later date? Great project and look forward to the 'reveal' as you make progress. Hope all goes well.👍
+ Norman Boyes that estimate was using the little information I could find from the manufacturer, once we got it hooked up to the battery monitor we found that its draw is indeed higher, closer to 3.4 amps, BUT we also discovered that it runs much less than the half a day we estimated, so it's actually a bit of a wash. Since we got the monitor installed we seem to be hitting around 60-70Ah a day actual draw across everything, with some things being higher than rated (the fridge), and some being much lower (the LEDs). Cable choice by Liverpool is definitely an issue, they used thinner cable than is sensible in many places, at least for the positive leads, but unfortunately they're also strung through places they will be damned near impossible to thread a larger cable without having to tear down the roof. So they'll remain for now. We did get almost everything (all the positives, about a third of the negatives) identified and labeled, and retrunked everything so it's at least organized spaghetti! More of a fettuccine, really! M
January 1, 2003 ... technically it does say 300211, but way I learned it Gregorian calendar dates can be read as you would a sentence, so it's a date to me. One of these days I need to do a video explaining all my tattoos. Basically it was my (first, it turned out of several) reboot date. M
Yeah, it gets weird. Words and sentences are read R to L, but numbers are read L to R... which I remember because of the prices for things. Native Arabic and Farsi speakers are always asking me what 300,211 is. I've been asked if it's the people I've killed or the women I've -- well, nevermind. But it's just a date. M
+Mark White Ours seems to think one is best and most be zealously guarded, but then again random intervals decides perhaps he was wrong a out the other two. M
Training a Springer Spaniel to NOT pull on the lead will be the hardest if not impossible task! They just don't like being held back! More important to train him on re-call and to heel.
+Steve Blake Yeah, he has so much energy and just wants to keep going! We just want to make sure he is safe and he has no road sense or canal sense for that matter. If he gets too distracted he will just jump in even if the bank is too steep for him to get out again. Is is wonderful though!
We're working on both! His recall isn't bad -- unless he's sighted a coot in the water, we've now had two unscheduled canal swims -- but heel for him basically just means yank us as hard as he can while being somewhat beside us! Overall it's going better than expected. Though he nearly drowned today chasing a coot. Some kinds of birds just appear to him as tennis balls. Giant, receding tennis balls! M.
All natural behaviour for Springers. Believe me, he won't drown, he will swim all day long. Anyway, although not a boater, I enjoy your videos. Enjoy owning George, they are a wonderful breed. Good luck on your travels. Steve
I was told once by someone "a pro" that anything less than 13.5v on a led acid battery means the battery is flat, anything around 8v and you have at least one dead cell per battery.
+Stephen Hunter yup, we'll sorta... I believe it's 1.8v per cell utterly dead flat, 2.4v per cell fully charged, 6 cells in a battery. So anything below 10.8v indicates permanent damage to at least one cell. The 13.5v figure seems a bit high, considering 13.8v is the float voltage for charging, and the nominal open circuit (no load) voltage of a charged battery should be closer to 12.6v, but it depends a ludicrous amount on the temperature and what load is on the battery when you read it, which is why so many conflicting magical numbers get bandied about. M
Yah they float them at that voltage to prevent "boiling" them and producing to much hydrogen gas. The result is they last longer. Automotive systems (cars) however would be closer to 14.4v
+Stephen Hunter Yup. Which is the odd part; a lead acid battery will survive the longest and perform the best if never once used as a battery, but just as a capacitor. M
If you want something that will produce a lot of current and can be recharged thousands of times from dead flat (0 volts) a capacitor bank is definitely the way to go
Well that's slightly better than using children as a substitute budgie down a mine... slightly... Seriously though thanks for the really informative video and the laughs!
Oh come on, hold the ball and throw the dog... Just kidding... George looks like he is a great dog.... Good luck on the electrical. No fun that is certain... Cheers from Alabama..
If you have an electrical disconnect the disconnects or breakers should have given you the size of wire and load rating. since your saying that there is a spaghetti junction to do a proper load calculation you need to know the size of the cable for each circuit a panel should be installed to isolate each one. if you have spiking check for loose neutrals or a break in the ground circuit. the grounds should all lead to one point and be thick enough for the neutral load. in the old days incandescent lights carried little to no neutral load. electric ranges with cow rods also no neutral load. But with today's circuits and computers and frig with circuit boards in them the neutral load is greater and the cable should be sized to match. the ground is only for faults should not be part of the neutral circuit. They should remain separated until the final point to ground These are the starting things to look for. Also on your inverter there should be a hi and low limit setting find the manual to see. you didn't give much detail on the surge suppressor you purchase? is it for storms or for computers and low voltage circuits and what amp or milliamp rating is it also does it have a reset.
+Lane Street The spiking when the engine revs is on the AC circuit, through the inverter -- the housing of which was not grounded, and it's still unclear if the neutral cable on the AC side should be bonded to the housing as well. There seems to be more magic than math in all of this, which is annoying! M
+tpp2001 cables off the batteries to the inverter and to the DC distro box seem properly sized. The DC district box itself was an absolute mess, and everything coming off of it is tiny, regardless of the length from that point on. AC ring seems to have proper connection to ground, with a galvanic isolator on the shore line input, though they cable is a bit thin. I've installed a new cable to ground to attach the old and new inverter and the solar charger to, as the old inverter casing wasn't grounded at all and the new ones demand it. It's nice and thick. Breakers installed on the positive inputs to the new inverter and the solar charger. Still no breaker on the input to the old inverter, though it is fed post-isolator (as is the new), so there's still a way to down it. Surge suppressor is just a power bar type, can't remember the milliamperes rating but it was the best they had at Maplin, though fused and non-resettable. We've also wired in a Victron DC/DC stabilizer to give us true 12V through our sockets, which should let us run 12v gear direct. It's all a learning curve, and there's a LOT of utterly self-contradicting information out there. M
We have a Victron power monitor. My power consumption with the inverter, Netatmo and router/modem is about 0.3kWh per day. If we leave the fridge on, it rises to about 0.8kWh per day. This is with the boat unoccupied. When cruising, using microwave, toaster, radio and TV, this rises to about 1kWh per day. The only thing that really knocks it up is the immersion, which we only use when on shore power (although it can work off the inverter) and that takes it up to 8kWh per day. We have 4 x 110Ahr batteries and they drop to 95% overnight (at the moment, with just the fridge on) and are recharged by 2 x 240W solar panels. The lights are all LED and we have a gas oven and hob. We also have a standard water pump and a macerator toilet. There's also the occasional use of hair dryer, but not by me. So, in summary, most of the power is used by the fridge and inverter (we have 240v fridge) and only about 20% by all the other appliances (ignoring the immersion). We don't plan to ever live off grid but just want to be able to moor up for a couple of days without needing to run the engine. We have a Webasto to give hot water but might switch the immersion on if not moving and a sunny day.
+Mike Shipp yeah ours is a little more aimed at off grid... that's why the Lithiums, and also why the 2x335w panels, mounted to allow optimal tilt in December, and the DC conversions to limit use of.the inverter, as well as installing the much smaller inverter for normal usage. At least that's the theory; still working on the solar install. M
After watching this video I had about a hundred questions as to why you did some things the way you did them but I figured in the end that you will be better off getting your "base load" information from the amp meter you are installing than trying to install a shunt in every line and measure things that way by hand with a meter. FYI as someone that raced full size electric cars, owned an RV, and is insane about their energy usage I will tell you that you can and will find the energy hogs in your system with a good meter correctly wired into your system that tells you your present load in amperes and Watts as long as it can also give you a use over time readout as well. You will learn that an intermittent 10 watt load can be far less of a problem than a constant 24 hour .25 watt load amp hours add up fast. Also I was just wondering if you plan to pull the "underway only" loads like the Tunnel light and navigation lights off the house battery pack and move them to the engine battery? You should only be using those lights when running, this is common in RV's.
+Ted Gallucci Yeah I had to do it back of the hand, no shunts to measure draw off of, and wasn't about to start jamming paper clips into odd places to try and make temporary ones for my cheapo multimeter. Now that the battery monitor is properly wired in we're getting much more meaningful data, which has been a huge help. That said, though I'd like to have those circuits off the starter motor, it's practically a bit of a problem. There's a 12v distribution box near the head that the tunnel lamp, horn, and nav lights all feed off of, along with all the other 12v accessories. The only cables going back to the battery are the nice thick + and - leads that go to the domestic bank, plus two thinner cables that currently drive the idiot gauge and the fridge. The fridge is currently wired from before the isolator, which allows us to isolate everything else but keep the food cool -- this seems to be a very common mod, though it violates the BSS and I plan to take it out -- and that's the only cable I could conceivably move to feed off the starter, but it's way too thin for all that load. Literally no room left to snake more thick cables, so we'll have to just make sure we turn the "drive time" items off whenever we're not on the move, or install some sort of relay hooked to the starter switch. M
Would adding a second isolator that allows you to shut down everything including the fridge be allowed by BSS? I understand why the mod was made so you can save power but keep your food, but that isolator is to prevent or help put out a fire. You might be able to get away with a Fridge still powered isolator if it is a color other than red and you have a red isolator that shuts everything including the fridge down. Too bad about the running lights and horn, sounds like you can't even isolate them with a relay. You will just have to pay close attention to them, it will only be a problem when you shut down the engine.
+Ted Gallucci The way these isolators work in boats I doubt they'd be much help in a fire, as you'd have to pull a bloody heavy panel off the engine bay, dive down in there, and yank them. They seem to mainly be about disabling the boat when you're leaving for a long time. If the boats on fire I'm not sure leaping down into the area where all the diesel is would be the first and wisest choice anyway! As for the fridge, I'll probably just move its feed to the isolator bus bar, to get it inline wth the BSS. Would be nice to be able to disable the running gear when the engine is off, though technically you're supposed to leave the running lamps on when anchored in a river, so maybe that's why it's wired as is. M
This was a heavy on the brain video to take in, but I found it to be very useful and interesting. My thanks to you both, and look forward to the next.
Thanks
An interesting and no-doubt very typical example of coming to terms with used narrowboat electronics when you want to actually use the thing as a CC. Looking forward to watching the rest of your vlogs on this.
Thanks, we’re glad to say we got it sorted well enough eventually! M
The last 5 min of video talking about George and the bloopers, absolutely hilarious! I really enjoyed it, and George is so adorable and I'm glad he doesn't eat children♡
A very good and informative video, good to see how well George has adapted to boat life, he's clearly very happy living with you
+Peter Mastenbroek He's ludicrously happy, especially now we've started to break out the ball chucker! M
Such good quality work. So well put together. And the out-takes! Hilarious. Good job all round.
+martin james Thank you!
Yet another interesting, amusing and informative video. Thank you
Thank you Michael you have made me feel LOTS more comfortable just saying NO to beer on my next trip to the UK. I gave up the stuff a long time ago. I have a narrowboat trip scheduled next year, and when offered, I am just going to say I want some of that nice cool fizzy pink stuff.
Easy does it on the back.
+John Rice Nothing wrong with the fizzy pink! M
Hi - just to say - really enjoy watching your videos. We live about 2 mins from the really low Pondtail Bridge on the Basingstoke canal so especially liked that one. Recognised most of it. Good luck on your travels - hope the electric stuff all goes well !
+Tim Jenkins ahh, our favorite bridge! Thanks for watching! M
Photo of the Plaque on Pondtail Bridge
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Nicely put together. Yes measuring current consumption with meters can be quite the task. Unfortunately most vendor documentation only lists new steady state consumption and does not show startup surges and effects of aging on power consumption.
Yep... it’s a whole lot of work getting even a reasonable average of what’s draining those batteries! M
I've only recently discovered your channel and I'm really enjoying it. One thing I noticed in this video is that Micheal often used the word potential which really made me chuckle as 'potential difference' is another term for voltage. I'm not sure the usage was intentional but it was very, very appropriate.
Not intentional, as such... but yeah incidentally appropriate! M
Outstanding vid guys, well done, thanks.
+redepsilon5 Thanks! M
Props for using watt hours to measure. It's always a bit silly when people talk in "amp hours" about loads with different voltages!
What kind of bird were you talking about? I am so glad you are doing these videos regarding the electrical system on your narrowboat! My wife and I are planning on living aboard a houseboat by this time next year... and electrical issues have been a concern of mine as we look to purchase a boat. Thanks to you guys, we have developed a check-list of questions that we take along with each boat we view!
+David Russell round here it's the coot (small waiting bird, white beak) and the moorhen (slightly smaller, red beak)... both of these may as well be tennis balls.
We're learning along the way, glad putting up some of this is helping! There will be more to come! M
Did your survey identify the needy state of the electrics on board so that you could make allowance in your costings? Love seeing George adding his bit to the updates btw
+miteor No, the survey didn't identify any of these issues, nor did it really touch on them. The batteries were inaccessible, and the survey won't go into areas that can't be reached or viewed relatively easily, while the others were more subtle. The leaks also weren't identified in the survey, which is mainly focused on major hull and structural issues. M
So what is the point of having a survey done in the first place? I thought having a survey was so they discover things like leaks.
+Nick It is, but they focus on leaks in the hull itself. The survey's primary focus is on the hull at and below the waterline, as that's like 90% of your purchase, and if it's got a leak in it then a few leaks in the roof won't mean much, as you'll be on the bottom. The surveyor did a quite thorough inspection of the engine, transmission, and all the natural points at which there are through-hull fittings, but their primary concern is that you'll stay afloat. He took a good long look at the inner woodwork, and like us did notice the few spots of minor water damage, but unfortunately those don't go a long way to telling you what's still happening underneath if there's a sign the previous owner did a fix (even a bodged one). He couldn't do more than a cursory inspection of the internal appliances, they all worked and there was no obvious gas leaks or electrical faults. And of course the batteries were charged up from the trip to the dry dock. So the rest is what we discovered during actual usage, post survey.
Honestly the whole process is a bit Wild West, where they may have given the horse a good polish and some false teeth and hope you don't notice. There really should be a more formal process, registration and proof of transfer documents, and all the usual protections that come with purchasing other vehicles, but that bureaucracy doesn't exist, so this is what we've got as a system, I'm afraid.
M
Is your steel hull acting as the 'earth' in your system or are all the wires just going to battery and 'floating' ?Is earthing covered in the LiPO video?
Essentially there is no "Earth" on a floating boat, but ultimately there is a "Ground" connection that indeed does go to a stud on the hull. With DC this is sufficient on its own. When an AC ring is installed it's also "earthed" to that "Ground" terminal, but through a galvanic isolator. Really where this all becomes important is when you're connected to a shore line, as the shore line earth will also be connected to the hull, allowing everything to find its way to actual Earth and ensuring there's no difference in potential as you step off and on. M
brilliant great info
The George update was lovely. Power details more interesting than anticipated. Not as interesting as George, of course. :)
He does tend to steal the show! But we need more power to bring more George! M
who ever did the wiring on your boat it must be the madman who owned my landy defender 90 before me. I took a look at the connections on my one reversing light there were 2 connected 12 spaded and loose lol. btw great vid
+wsatnutter Sounds about right! Or wrong! M
Great video you guys, looks like you are getting to know your boat more even if it is full of spaghetti, but i am sure you will sort that out. Bad connections and poor wiring will make the load on your 12v supply heavy, like the old saying "low voltage = high amperage.
Oh we are never too old to learn new things, like conkers on the roof lol.
+darran newman Yeah we're losing a lot to the spaghetti, and to poor choices in cable thicknesses to begin with. Some of it, though, will be impossible to fix unless we tear all the tongue and groove off, and we're a long way from that. So mainly we've been tracing and labeling and trying to tackle it one noodle at a time! M
Interesting video, my experience of 12V DC is when the. battery gets to 70% or 8.4V the alternator won't charge them above 70%. They need to be replaced!
I know you already did this cause I just watched your lithium vid. If possible can we have less talk of inverters, laptops and other techy stuff and more talk about George?
Well, I'm pretty sure George wasn't around yet back then... but he was coming soon! M
Great vlog, are you not worried about fire risk with your spaghetti wiring issues ?
+Mark White This would be why we undid all of that and redid what we could. Couldn't change all the cable runs, but did replace bad connectors, labeled everything, and got in some bus bars to do the distribution in a smarter fashion.
Still worried about fire risk, mind you. Just less worried.
M
My wife is from England and I have lived in Texas the past 23 years. She keeps saying that you two remind her of us camping, especially the bloopers. One day she asked me as we were traveling why birds did not get shocked when that sat on the wires. I told her that they either had to touch another wire also or be grounded. She replied "What would happen if they were sitting the wire and touched the ground?" With a straight face I replied "That would be a tall bird Honey." We still laugh about it. We both keep journals everyday while travelling.
+Bob814u A really tall -- or tragically lopsided -- ex-bird, in that case! Glad you're enjoying these from so far afield from English canals and weather! Cheers! M
Fascinating. So much so that I burnt my dinner . Bugger !! :-)
+Michael and Max Sorry about that! Poor dinner! M
But where are you now???
J
+J P Not much further, we've stayed stuck in the Redding to Newbury area as we gather all the requirements for the electric switchover and solar, with all that's left now being the solar panel mounting. Had a bit of an accident two days ago, though, and still recuperating, so not moved on anything in the last 72. M
Minimal List Good to hear from you, hoping your incapacity and spaghetti are soon in shape. While you're laid up, a quick electrics tale for you that might be of benefit. Restoring an old land rover the brake lights refused to come on. With a volt meter I checked every part of the circuits, the volt meter even showing volts at the light sockets when the brake pedal was pressed, but still no lights with the bulbs inserted. A lot of head scratching later and starting to doubt the laws of physics............one of the wiring bullet joints had sufficient connection to pass the volt meter test current but would fail with the current load of the bulbs. And then with bulbs removed show as good again with the volt meter. Not one you're likely to come across, but just in case.......Regards Jim.
+J P hah, and are! I hate those ones where you're questioning Newton, Volta, and Einstein. M
I look forward to future videos on your narrowboat conversion over to solar. I must admit all the numbers and k's. W's and h's mixed in with amperage and watts makes my brain hurt but hopefully the more I read, watch and listen it will slowly trickle in my thick skull. Even though quite an amateur on the subject I am mostly convinced that a fully (nearly) electric narrowboat is a possibility. With the occasional use of a petrol or diesel generator to help out. The boat would need a large battery pack from a Nissan Leaf or similar, a motor from a used fork lift or similar and very large solar bank, but me thinks it could be done. I would guess a full charge would get you ~20 miles on a canal. You may have done the math on this already, if so, can it be done? : )
Now onto dogs. Pulling on leash problem. Have him sit at your left, on leash, say HEEL as you proceed to walk slowly begininning with your left foot. His head should advance no further than your left knee. Take three or four steps and stop with a HUP. Hold on tight to a short length of leash from the collar or harness with your left hand. He will keep going until the slack comes to an end. Now writing this, it sounds harsh but you are walking slowly. The one thing he wants to do is keep going and if that stops when you stop he will soon learn to stop when you do. Don't move your position, guide him back around to your left and get him in the sit position. Repeat. It only takes a very short time for him to learn, a walk of fifty yards, really. First time he stops when you stop let the high pitched praising flow. He will need reminders now and then. This was the way I learned it back many moons ago so techniques may have changed some. If you can find videos of Uncle Matty dog trainer he's got some, I think, good techniques.
+lostinthekerf There are actually some fully electric narrowboats, and even an electric narrowboat association that we saw handing out leaflets, though I didn't grab more details. There are also hybrid drive systems becoming quite popular in new boats, but retrofitting is incredibly expensive unless your engine has totally shot itself. The biggest problemk is the batteries, because for full electric I believe you need to go to at least a 24V system if not 48V, which means an awful lot of room for batteries as ballast.
+lostinthekerf As for dog advice, we are doing exactly that (well, Jo is, with my recent head conk I'm out of the game), but he basically never stops pulling ahead immediately as soon as your body language indicates forward motion. Patience of an un-mated mayfly, this one! We're looking at alternatives like the Halti or clicker training, as his last remaining problem really is the inability to reliably heel. M
Wow, The Electric Boat Association is a treasure trove of info. Lots of history and links to other electric boating sites. Thank You! I envision in the immediate future more and more narrowboats adding on elec. trolling motors powered by solar and more and more battery storage filled by solar panels for night time needs. New boats going, as is already happening, with hybrid first and finally all solar with large battery banks as ballast. I am an outsider looking in on this but to me silent clean running is congruent with the current narrowboat way of life. And it's getting cheaper! I have heard some narrowboat tubers verbalize their dismay at being alongside or near another narrowboat that is running their Diesel engine well into the night to power various appliances. This is what partially awoke my interest in an electric option for full time operation. Get well soon.
: ) Well, hmm. He'll come around, maybe. There is a saying you've probably heard, " A tired dog is a good dog." So possibly a short training session after he is nearly totally tuckered out, if he ever gets to that point. Cheers!
+lostinthekerf We've never seem him sufficiently tuckered! We hear this state exists, but still no sign! M
so useful. Guy
Thanks !
It is useful we are going along the solar route shortly.
+Vivienne Brooks It's a long route for us, though another boat might have had a simpler install! M
so.... 12V tDC o 230V AC... so and hook up a lap top that turn that back to 12V DC..... for the computer/phone
Good video and a great project. I know you have done the best you can in estimating power draw on the various loads and this comment is in no way criticism - I am surprised at the figures for the fridge, it's either very small or it's uber efficient. Most sailors (yachts) are acutely aware that the fridge is the major load on their distribution board. Given the state of the wiring it is also likely you have circuits with significant voltage drop at the load so your amperage draw is likely to be higher than the makers plate would suggest. Are you going to rip out and start again with the wiring or is that something for a later date? Great project and look forward to the 'reveal' as you make progress. Hope all goes well.👍
+ Norman Boyes that estimate was using the little information I could find from the manufacturer, once we got it hooked up to the battery monitor we found that its draw is indeed higher, closer to 3.4 amps, BUT we also discovered that it runs much less than the half a day we estimated, so it's actually a bit of a wash. Since we got the monitor installed we seem to be hitting around 60-70Ah a day actual draw across everything, with some things being higher than rated (the fridge), and some being much lower (the LEDs).
Cable choice by Liverpool is definitely an issue, they used thinner cable than is sensible in many places, at least for the positive leads, but unfortunately they're also strung through places they will be damned near impossible to thread a larger cable without having to tear down the roof. So they'll remain for now. We did get almost everything (all the positives, about a third of the negatives) identified and labeled, and retrunked everything so it's at least organized spaghetti! More of a fettuccine, really! M
Minimal List You clearly are on top of all the issues and I look forward to the next instalment.👍
+Norman Boyes... as far as I can tell there's no upper limit to the issues to be on top of. M
Mike, 300211... that is tatoo'd on your right arm in arabic numerals, so maybe it reads 112003... what does that mean?
January 1, 2003 ... technically it does say 300211, but way I learned it Gregorian calendar dates can be read as you would a sentence, so it's a date to me. One of these days I need to do a video explaining all my tattoos. Basically it was my (first, it turned out of several) reboot date. M
Arabic reads R to L, so to me 112003 is "technically" correct LOL... I spent many years working in Oman and UAE
Yeah, it gets weird. Words and sentences are read R to L, but numbers are read L to R... which I remember because of the prices for things. Native Arabic and Farsi speakers are always asking me what 300,211 is. I've been asked if it's the people I've killed or the women I've -- well, nevermind. But it's just a date. M
My border collie does not like sharing his ball. Try placing 3 or more in front of him and say which one, great fun as he will try and keep them all
+Mark White Ours seems to think one is best and most be zealously guarded, but then again random intervals decides perhaps he was wrong a out the other two. M
Re George he is a springer our collie will stay close but best of luck with a springer he is a nose dog but he is looking good
+Vivienne Brooks He is so definitely a nose dog! M
Training a Springer Spaniel to NOT pull on the lead will be the hardest if not impossible task! They just don't like being held back! More important to train him on re-call and to heel.
+Steve Blake Yeah, he has so much energy and just wants to keep going! We just want to make sure he is safe and he has no road sense or canal sense for that matter. If he gets too distracted he will just jump in even if the bank is too steep for him to get out again. Is is wonderful though!
We're working on both! His recall isn't bad -- unless he's sighted a coot in the water, we've now had two unscheduled canal swims -- but heel for him basically just means yank us as hard as he can while being somewhat beside us!
Overall it's going better than expected. Though he nearly drowned today chasing a coot. Some kinds of birds just appear to him as tennis balls. Giant, receding tennis balls! M.
All natural behaviour for Springers. Believe me, he won't drown, he will swim all day long. Anyway, although not a boater, I enjoy your videos. Enjoy owning George, they are a wonderful breed. Good luck on your travels. Steve
+Steve Blake we are enjoying him, sudden fits of stupidity and all! ;-) M
I was told once by someone "a pro" that anything less than 13.5v on a led acid battery means the battery is flat, anything around 8v and you have at least one dead cell per battery.
+Stephen Hunter yup, we'll sorta... I believe it's 1.8v per cell utterly dead flat, 2.4v per cell fully charged, 6 cells in a battery. So anything below 10.8v indicates permanent damage to at least one cell. The 13.5v figure seems a bit high, considering 13.8v is the float voltage for charging, and the nominal open circuit (no load) voltage of a charged battery should be closer to 12.6v, but it depends a ludicrous amount on the temperature and what load is on the battery when you read it, which is why so many conflicting magical numbers get bandied about. M
Yah they float them at that voltage to prevent "boiling" them and producing to much hydrogen gas. The result is they last longer. Automotive systems (cars) however would be closer to 14.4v
+Stephen Hunter Yup. Which is the odd part; a lead acid battery will survive the longest and perform the best if never once used as a battery, but just as a capacitor. M
If you want something that will produce a lot of current and can be recharged thousands of times from dead flat (0 volts) a capacitor bank is definitely the way to go
Sure, so long as you don't want it to store the charge. M
Well that's slightly better than using children as a substitute budgie down a mine... slightly...
Seriously though thanks for the really informative video and the laughs!
+Matt Allen no children were harmed in the making of this video. Promise. M
Oh come on, hold the ball and throw the dog... Just kidding... George looks like he is a great dog.... Good luck on the electrical. No fun that is certain... Cheers from Alabama..
+Mark Patty It's enough fun when you're not suddenly part of the electrical system! And I've got Skynard stuck in my head! M
If you have an electrical disconnect the disconnects or breakers should have given you the size of wire and load rating. since your saying that there is a spaghetti junction to do a proper load calculation you need to know the size of the cable for each circuit a panel should be installed to isolate each one. if you have spiking check for loose neutrals or a break in the ground circuit. the grounds should all lead to one point and be thick enough for the neutral load. in the old days incandescent lights carried little to no neutral load. electric ranges with cow rods also no neutral load. But with today's circuits and computers and frig with circuit boards in them the neutral load is greater and the cable should be sized to match. the ground is only for faults should not be part of the neutral circuit. They should remain separated until the final point to ground These are the starting things to look for. Also on your inverter there should be a hi and low limit setting find the manual to see. you didn't give much detail on the surge suppressor you purchase? is it for storms or for computers and low voltage circuits and what amp or milliamp rating is it also does it have a reset.
Sorry, they are working with DC, so there is no neutral. Did you mean to say ground?
+Lane Street The spiking when the engine revs is on the AC circuit, through the inverter -- the housing of which was not grounded, and it's still unclear if the neutral cable on the AC side should be bonded to the housing as well. There seems to be more magic than math in all of this, which is annoying! M
+tpp2001 cables off the batteries to the inverter and to the DC distro box seem properly sized. The DC district box itself was an absolute mess, and everything coming off of it is tiny, regardless of the length from that point on. AC ring seems to have proper connection to ground, with a galvanic isolator on the shore line input, though they cable is a bit thin. I've installed a new cable to ground to attach the old and new inverter and the solar charger to, as the old inverter casing wasn't grounded at all and the new ones demand it. It's nice and thick. Breakers installed on the positive inputs to the new inverter and the solar charger. Still no breaker on the input to the old inverter, though it is fed post-isolator (as is the new), so there's still a way to down it. Surge suppressor is just a power bar type, can't remember the milliamperes rating but it was the best they had at Maplin, though fused and non-resettable. We've also wired in a Victron DC/DC stabilizer to give us true 12V through our sockets, which should let us run 12v gear direct.
It's all a learning curve, and there's a LOT of utterly self-contradicting information out there. M
Oh and the Angel of Death ..... too soon surely?
We have a Victron power monitor. My power consumption with the inverter, Netatmo and router/modem is about 0.3kWh per day. If we leave the fridge on, it rises to about 0.8kWh per day. This is with the boat unoccupied. When cruising, using microwave, toaster, radio and TV, this rises to about 1kWh per day. The only thing that really knocks it up is the immersion, which we only use when on shore power (although it can work off the inverter) and that takes it up to 8kWh per day. We have 4 x 110Ahr batteries and they drop to 95% overnight (at the moment, with just the fridge on) and are recharged by 2 x 240W solar panels. The lights are all LED and we have a gas oven and hob. We also have a standard water pump and a macerator toilet. There's also the occasional use of hair dryer, but not by me. So, in summary, most of the power is used by the fridge and inverter (we have 240v fridge) and only about 20% by all the other appliances (ignoring the immersion). We don't plan to ever live off grid but just want to be able to moor up for a couple of days without needing to run the engine. We have a Webasto to give hot water but might switch the immersion on if not moving and a sunny day.
+Mike Shipp yeah ours is a little more aimed at off grid... that's why the Lithiums, and also why the 2x335w panels, mounted to allow optimal tilt in December, and the DC conversions to limit use of.the inverter, as well as installing the much smaller inverter for normal usage.
At least that's the theory; still working on the solar install. M
After watching this video I had about a hundred questions as to why you did some things the way you did them but I figured in the end that you will be better off getting your "base load" information from the amp meter you are installing than trying to install a shunt in every line and measure things that way by hand with a meter. FYI as someone that raced full size electric cars, owned an RV, and is insane about their energy usage I will tell you that you can and will find the energy hogs in your system with a good meter correctly wired into your system that tells you your present load in amperes and Watts as long as it can also give you a use over time readout as well. You will learn that an intermittent 10 watt load can be far less of a problem than a constant 24 hour .25 watt load amp hours add up fast.
Also I was just wondering if you plan to pull the "underway only" loads like the Tunnel light and navigation lights off the house battery pack and move them to the engine battery? You should only be using those lights when running, this is common in RV's.
+Ted Gallucci Yeah I had to do it back of the hand, no shunts to measure draw off of, and wasn't about to start jamming paper clips into odd places to try and make temporary ones for my cheapo multimeter. Now that the battery monitor is properly wired in we're getting much more meaningful data, which has been a huge help.
That said, though I'd like to have those circuits off the starter motor, it's practically a bit of a problem. There's a 12v distribution box near the head that the tunnel lamp, horn, and nav lights all feed off of, along with all the other 12v accessories. The only cables going back to the battery are the nice thick + and - leads that go to the domestic bank, plus two thinner cables that currently drive the idiot gauge and the fridge. The fridge is currently wired from before the isolator, which allows us to isolate everything else but keep the food cool -- this seems to be a very common mod, though it violates the BSS and I plan to take it out -- and that's the only cable I could conceivably move to feed off the starter, but it's way too thin for all that load. Literally no room left to snake more thick cables, so we'll have to just make sure we turn the "drive time" items off whenever we're not on the move, or install some sort of relay hooked to the starter switch.
M
Would adding a second isolator that allows you to shut down everything including the fridge be allowed by BSS? I understand why the mod was made so you can save power but keep your food, but that isolator is to prevent or help put out a fire. You might be able to get away with a Fridge still powered isolator if it is a color other than red and you have a red isolator that shuts everything including the fridge down.
Too bad about the running lights and horn, sounds like you can't even isolate them with a relay. You will just have to pay close attention to them, it will only be a problem when you shut down the engine.
+Ted Gallucci The way these isolators work in boats I doubt they'd be much help in a fire, as you'd have to pull a bloody heavy panel off the engine bay, dive down in there, and yank them. They seem to mainly be about disabling the boat when you're leaving for a long time. If the boats on fire I'm not sure leaping down into the area where all the diesel is would be the first and wisest choice anyway!
As for the fridge, I'll probably just move its feed to the isolator bus bar, to get it inline wth the BSS. Would be nice to be able to disable the running gear when the engine is off, though technically you're supposed to leave the running lamps on when anchored in a river, so maybe that's why it's wired as is. M
Anyone else thinking Apollo 13?
Braunston, we have a problem.