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Prophets of old were courageous men, called by God, to warn men to turn from sin and trust in God or judgement was coming. We prophesy over men today when we share the gospel with them. We call them to turn from sin and trust in Christ or judgement is coming. We know what’s coming by hearing the Word of God. Prophecy is not “hearing from the Lord” and speaking something new.
@@annieaviles4760 not sure what was unclear, but he has no obligation to give anybody a sign gift 1 Corinthians 12:11 (ESV): All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. Also, there is a purpose to a sign or wonder, it isnt just for show. Saying that his character is the same does not imply that he must do the same things at all times. Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel as a judgement against Israel. It was not an example of the normative life of the church. So just because the Spirit did that does not mean he will do that throughout time.
@@rayortiz6189 you did not explain one thing against the Truth that I shared. I will hold you to your claim; how has the Holy Spirit changed? The Bible verse you shared does in no way reveal a changing Spirit, but a dynamic one. Again…. where is your proof that the Holy Spirit has changed. The Holy Spirit continues to speak to the children of God. It is Christ who teaches us this; John 14;26, Matthew 10:20, John 6:13, 1 John 2:27, 1 Corinthians 2:9, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 12:8, Ephesians 1:17,…
“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:17-21)
Peter was clearly talking about himself and the people in pentecost. This was a response to people wondering why that group of christians were behaving that way at the temple. I do think we should read the context.
Regardless, it’s a direct command to seek the gifts especially that you may prophecy. It’s a direct command not to despise prophecies. If you care about sola scriptura you should obey those texts too.
Paul said that to a Church living in a time that prophesy had not yet ceased. Isn't it interesting he does not say that to latter churches. He makes no mention of prophesying when giving instructions in the Pastoral Epistles. Don't you think if Paul wanted to give Titus and Timothy instructions for God's church before he died that he would have talked about those very important spiritual gifts, had they not ceased? But in his latter letters, such as Colossians, Philippians, Philemon, Titus, and 1-2 Timothy he makes no mention of these gifts at all, because they had served their purpose and ceased. Isn't it strange that Paul, who had formerly been able to heal sickness and disease, instructed Timothy "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities"? Why wouldn't Paul command Timothy to have a healer, if the gift still existed, to lay their hands on him and make him well? When not instruct Timothy to come to him and visit so he could make him well? Why did Paul pray to God 3x for his own thorn in the flesh, only to hear God say "my grace is sufficient for you"? Paul formerly, had the ability to heal, why not heal himself of his ailment in the flesh? Or why not turn to a healer, if they existed?
@@CH-xt4cr That's a LOT of reading between the lines and crosses very close to trying to invalidate the God breathed word. What other direct commands of God do you want to explain away so you can disobey?
@@JesusPeopleSF It's really not reading between the lines, it's actually quie clear if you study the topic. I tried to be concisde before, but here is a fuller explanation of why the gifts have ceased. docs.google.com/document/d/1UqJZ3loh9FEFT5eqYWbMMBVAS4mhYDDxMg2lY-J4XWs/edit?usp=sharing
That's like saying it's a direct command for you to wear a head covering. Do you wear head coverings? If not, you'll have to defend why you've picked and chosen which commands are relevant for today and which ones are not.
@@CH-xt4cr Well I am not female (1), and (2) I am not married (the command is for married women), so this is a moot point. Next argument? You can shift the discussion anywhere you please but ultimately God hath spoken bud.
If humility prevails and the title of this video is changed, I think you’ll keep a lot more subscribers. But as has been mentioned, the title here is just out of place..and sadly not at all an uncommon trend amongst TH-camrs seeking to build audiences. Critique a big name, get views..effective..but not above reproach! Blazing gun polemic pastors firing off criticisms against men 5 decades their senior is a disturbingly trendy content niche these days. It hurts my soul. 1 Timothy 5:1 rings loudly. Live above the algorithm games, and more importantly..live above an inordinate lean towards polemics. TH-cam seems to attract a preponderance of people with the unique gifting of “polemic crusader”. But my hopes are that this is not at all going to be the trajectory of this channel and ministry!
A fair critique. I don’t always do this, but occasionally. I have spent hours upon hours fleshing out texts and doctrines without being unnecessarily polemical. And I agree with you that it is often cringeworthy when a young man critiques men who are twice his senior. That said, Piper assured Christians they could vote for Joe Biden. I have no remaining respect for him. If he comes out with a public robust apology, I will reconsider. And Chandler made my wife and every other white pastor’s wife feel like a racist at every Acts 29 pastors retreat (I used to be an Acts 29 pastor). I don’t point the polemical barrels at just anyone. But these two men have earned it.
@@RightResponseMinistries Shouldn't you then make a video about those issues you mentioned in your comment, instead of using their names for click bait? When I first began watching your videos they were very enlightening bringing out clear content. Now they just seem to create controversy for the sake of controversy. I understand your view explained in this video, but it has nothing to do with the 2 men you mentioned in the title. 🤔
You're very first sentence shows that your concern is not with the heart of God but with losing suscribers. Any man of God should be more concerned with his responsibility in teaching the Word correctly than with youtube hits, as I see Mr. Webbon has strived for. Outing false teachings and false doctrines should be on the mind of every God fearing man because the "church" is rife with them.
@@mytreasuredcreations I understand your sentiment, and will take your feedback into prayerful consideration. That said, this particular video certainly has something to do with Piper and Chandler. The position on prophecy that I outline in the video is a clear and fair representation of what Piper and Chandler believe. These two men are two of the most well known individuals who hold to this view. They have taught this publicly and frequently.
I am skeptical of the honest intentions of anyone who says that people should not be warned that John Piper introduced or mainstreamed several serious errors into Reformed evangelicalism
I always was taught that if a prophecy did not come true, than it wasn't from God. Mormons have a theory called 'tacking,' that explains how they can have false prophecy. They say that it's like a ship moving in the sea, back and forth, to and from, until it finds the right path. I never heard a protestant make this sort of argument. Interesting word.
I know I'm late to the game here, but wanted to also say that this is a good, solid word. I've been listening to this channel more and more as what I'm hearing seems very biblically sound and robust. Yeah, the sign gifts are an area of disagreement between me and Matt, which makes for rich conversation with my wife and kid (she's from a charismatic tradition in her childhood and he's still very young) after some Sunday services. "Confusion" is the word indeed, and the danger is a resultant frustration or disillusionment that ultimately leads to a janky worldview or even apostasy. Continuationist, by way of pure imagination, are blind to the simple fact that the miraculous has always been the exception. We're not to think that every merchant, farmer, mother, and child had the experience of their prophets and priests... that's why there were prophets and priests. Cessationism is no more a denial of the modern miracle than it is of miracles in biblical times. Rather, it hinges on the word "normative." A Cessationist who misunderstands this is just as much in error as the Continuationist.
Pastor Joel, I really appreciate your teaching on God's design and order in the family, church and society, your preaching against antinomianism, against wokeness infiltrating the church and so on. With all due respect, I'm so sad to see you have gone horribly wrong here - to the extent of potentially blasphemy. Because people abuse the grace of God (antinomianism or easy believism) doesn't mean we invent another way for justification - they abuse it to their own peril and God's saving grace is only for the elect being saved. Likewise, because people abuse (or manifest counterfeits of) the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not mean we (knee-jerk) invent an idea that certain gifts have ceased (1 Cor 13:8 is talking about Christ's return you would agree). And please note Scripture does not categorise the 'sign gifts' (that you mentioned) separately from others (teaching, helping, administrating, ....). This issue is not about Piper or Chandler - this is about GOD's work in building his people up in faith in the church and man dare say anything he is not sure of. Both Old (Saul, Nathan) and New Testaments (Agabus, Philip the evangelist's daughters) have examples of people who prophesied but who were not inspired human authors of Scripture. However (from a cessationist perspective), if prophesy meant only speaking out Scripture (or teaching as some say), how could there be women who prophesy (in the sense of teaching as God's Word clearly prohibits it)? Thanks for the other video teaching (correctly) that headcovering is relevant and important to follow today as well but that teaching cannot make sense from the meaning 'cessationism' (at least what I have heard) gives the word prophecy either! I don't believe the apostle is commanding us to weigh or test whether something is Scripture on a day-to-day basis. We already know what Scripture is - Jesus attests Peter as the rock on which he will build the church and he in turn attests Paul's work as Scripture. I believe the apostle is asking us to weigh whether the prophecy (that which is not Scripture as in Acts 2:17) is of God or not - (1) it needs to conform to truth of Scripture, and (2) it will have to come to pass. I'm not considering the fallible prophecy argument coming apparently from Piper at all here. I believe it's not about the prophecy apart from Scripture being less certain than Scripture - it's that these two kinds of prophecies have different roles in the life of the church. The 'Scripture' category of prophecies coming from the biblical authors (either directly from apostles or written from apostolic tradition and therefore having apostolic authority in the NT) make them profitable and authoritative for teaching and allied activities (2 Tim 3:16). Whereas prophecy apart from Scripture has its own place and purpose in God's plan of building his church up - examples include foretelling the future (Acts 11:28, 21:10), causing conviction (1 Cor 14:24) and so on in individual/corporate lives and circumstances. I would really so encourage you to pray much about this matter and reconsider your teaching as it has great implications (1) you could be found misrepresenting God's sovereignty and ministry through the Holy Spirit (because it does not fit your theology), (2) people are being misled here, and (3) true believers are potentially being excluded from your ecumenism. I pray for your ministry and hope there will be great unity amongst true believers built through your work but I think you are not confident here and making a terrible mistake (which could have spiritual implications as we rely on God's support for victory). I hope all this makes sense to you, brother. The enforcement of the authority of Scripture alone (i.e. apostolic authority) in church does not need the support of a cessationist doctrine as true prophecies from true believers today will not compete with Scripture!
I didn't know about those excuses. (I'm calling them excuses.) The church I go to permits prophecy; so now I'm going to keep my ears open for their reasoning behind it. I have heard false prophecy, but I classified it as false prophecy, and my heart keeps me from wanting to call the person a false prophet. It's a very sad confliction to be in.
Hi, when a person has trusted a pastor, it isn't easy to walk away, until, as you are aware of, the false prophecies are not being critiqued by the church as is our responsibility. As a believer and a disciple that does love our LORD, we desire to have the mind of Christ. Following what is written in scripture takes away all confusion, leaving us with a decision, whom do we follow? Hate what God hates . The Holy Spirit has opened your eyes, where most will call you one who is causing division. Jesus was very effective in division from sin.
@@christophercunningham5434 I am a strict follower of scripture. I dont make changes unless I have understanding that it is indeed scriptural. Sigh. Am I understanding from Pastor Joel, that a false prophecy only comes from a false prophet? 😳 oh gosh. I'm having a hard time with the necessary consequence of this possiblity that one can not utter a word of prophecy that is false. I may have been under false pastorate for years.
@@merrittascott4408 @Merritta Scott Hi, Merritta! I really appreciate what you wrote. It's hard to believe that so many people I know and love could be in false religion, including I, myself. It's painful to think that they may all be on the path of perdition, if they know that they are sinning or are willfully ignorant. People are afraid to ask certain questions. We are told not to "correct the pastor". I must be sinning, otherwise it would be clear what situation I allowed myself to be in. I guess I've been making excuses by believing that the leaders are suffering from the imperfection of machismo or embarrassment of making a mistake. Regarding division, I'm being shunned for causing division, but I was also told that I didn't do anything wrong. Doublespeak.
3:05 Hebrews 1 indicates that God formerly spoke through prophets but has spoken by His Son. Hebrews was written when Cessationists accepted prophesy was still an active gifting. How's that work?
I’m also hearing clear eisegesis when you are teaching, based on an assumption ( your word),that these gifts have ceased. Please exegete for us where these gifts ceased? Blessings
Hebrews 1 deals with prophecy, Paul's letter to Timothy demonstrates the lack of a healing gift, Paul mentions "the signs of an apostle" in another place...
@@horrificpleasantry9474 so this one verse….1Ti 5:23 (Stop drinking just water, but use a little wine for your digestion and your frequent illnesses.)…. Means that these verses…(1Co 12:7 To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all. 1Co 12:8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 1Co 12:10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 1Co 12:11 It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things. 1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body - though many - are one body, so too is Christ.)… have ceased? Now that is a textbook example of eisegesis my friend! Your desire to find a proof text caused you to conclude that because he was told to use wine, that it is because the gifts had already ceased! Based on internal evidence that is roughly about a 10 year gap between the two writings. I’m still waiting for exegesis describing that the gifts that Paul lays out at Corinth have ceased? Blessings
Yep--as He decides, not as people have faith in the gifts. If the sign gifts were in play, then they would be visible in cessationist congregations, because they are faithful to the word. Your only way out of this is to conclude a) that Reformed Christianity is apostate, and go join a cult, or b) that God can't do anything unless we permit it, and go join a cult
@@horrificpleasantry9474 but you’re holding a presupposition with no biblical evidence. My initial question was/is ; is cessation taught in the New Covenant? If so please provide your doctrinal evidence?
Have you ever seen a legitimate verifiable evidence of the gifts and have you recorded the evidence for us to see? And no Todd White's leg lengthening doesn't count.
Sincere question here: can someone point me to a resource explaining 1 Cor 12? As to why these gifts mentioned are not all for today? Like when did they stop, who said so, where; if we read and get teachings today from these epistles, and are taught about being the Body of Christ and using our gifts (sermons made from this passage and others) then why ignore the “spiritual“ (if you will) gifts as tho they r not mentioned as part of this passage 😕☹️. I probably butchered this paragraph, or really am unsure how to put my questions on the matter out there. 😞
You could watch these : th-cam.com/video/DmDCl-gMJ3k/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/fZa0q_4o1j4/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/uZPOf2MSddQ/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/WV1pmOo4gGs/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/RT3weCXrUUw/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/C7QoWSy0smk/w-d-xo.html
0:40 Stop slandering all continuationists. I don’t follow Piper or Chandler, nor believe in an unclear prophecy or a different standard for prophecy in the OT and NT. That’s what YOU believe: God spoke whenever He wanted back then, but He doesn’t anymore. There is nothing in the OT or NT says prophecy ceases at AD 70. That’s your extrabiblical dogma.
This is the predominant view among continuationists regarding the function of “New Testament prophecy.” I’m simply pointing out the problems with the view. If it’s not your view, then great.
i think it's easier to be a cessationist if you are post mil. when I was historic pre mil I had trouble understanding how you could argue that the gifts had ceased because it was hard to see the times had changed since the time of the apostles
How did people 3000 years ago know a prophecy was from God when the prophecy was for the far distant future? Many have not happened yet, but they are considered scripture.
It doesn’t matter whether I agree with you. I hope for your sake that you are correct. The New Testament is clear about the responsibility of a self declared teacher. If you are wrong, standing before God with your human understanding and assurance of your spiritual correctness will get you nothing. I believe the correct response here is to pray for the people that you have decided are wrong, let God work out the details in their life. The arrogance of Calvinists knows very little restraint, even though their is some truth to their beliefs, this is a perfect example of message and delivery that serves no purpose other than to self edify the messenger.
Thanks for naming names. I wasn't aware that Chandler and Piper were Continuationists. I can see from a comment below a quote from Piper proving he is a continuationist. I'm guessing from what I've found on the internet that Sam Storms, DA Carson, Mark Driscoll, Francis Chan and Wayne Grudem are also Continuationists. It's good to be aware of their theological positions before reading or listening to their teachings.
Yeah and Driscoll and chan are disqualified from teaching, Driscoll for being quarrelsome and Chan for partnering with NAR people and teaching blasphemous heresies.
@David, Correct. And each of those are good men, edifying in other respects. But they have to be discerned through their errors on the gifts of the Church.
Brother how can you even compare the two chandler whom is a social justice defender and a heretic, and piper who is not a cessationist. This cessationism topic is not a topic worth dividing for as long as all the other doctrine is straight. I'm baffled really.
In daniel 9:24-27, it’s clear that vision and prophecy would be sealed at the end of the 70 weeks. Furthermore, if we understand the 70 weeks of Daniel properly (without the inserted/forced gap between the 69 & 70 week), the sign gifts would be sealed at the fall of Jerusalem. The apostolic gifts were for the last days (Acts 2) of the old covenant system. We now have word made more sure (2 Peter 1:19).
Even if you're futurist, that interpretation makes sense, because the church age gap is considered to be part of the timeframe outside of when prophecy is fulfilled according to Daniel. It would be stopped until the tribulation comes
The blame for the blasphemy in the church today comes from the prophecy in Dan7:25. It tells us there will come a time when an attempt to take away the Holy festivals Aaannd the ways of God will happen. Daniel didn't know about valentine's day, Xmas, Easter, but he did know about Gods appointed times! These changes happened at the council of nicea, thus fulfilling the prophecy. Many of the changes are carried on in the catholic & protestant churches today! So they have the guilt of carrying on these changes that upset Daniel! Lots of hypocrisy in Christian church today! Todays Christianity is not the Christianity that Jesus taught!!!!
@@qw2ps4 oh so you think the whole church is apostate, eh. Probably like your buddy's wife, too. Like Joseph Smith, Muhammad and all the other people throughout history have said the church is apostate...
100% agree. Thanks again brother. Please address 1 Thessalonians 5:219-21. That’s another one they go to. They say I (we) quench the spirit if I (we) say these special gifts have ceased. I think you pass fail analogy would fit here as well.
So the assumption is that there are New Testament prophets? How would they function if all revelation is fulfilled and there is no longer, thus sayeth the Lord” but now, “thus the Lord hath previously spoke from Holy Scriptures.”??? Are there New Testament prophets called by the Lord?
Cessationism is by far the greatest heresy of our time and the greatest example of Eisegesis I can think of. There is no scriptural support for the cessationist viewpoint and it has systematically robbed the church of its identity and power for centuries. Truly heart breaking…
For the continuationist to read themselves into the apostolic gifts. To grab them and rob them of their original purpose is the greatest form of eisegesis. Don’t you agree? And no, it is not eisegesis because we read the sign gifts and prophecy as they are. They were things that happened. We have no right to yank them into the present.
Sir, I know this was posted a year ago, but I think you need to face the reality of what you just said (unless you already have ofc). How is it possible for a heretic to be a Christian? To be a devout follower of Jesus Christ, having placed their faith wholly in Him as their one and only hope for salvation? Is it indeed possible for a true and genuine believer of Jesus Christ to ALSO believe in salvation by works? (I don't mean a new Christian). What about the nature of God? Can I be a believer who is going to heaven is I don't think Jesus and the Holy Spirit are themselves members of an eternal trinity, one God? The answer is of course, no. I cannot be a genuine believer if I do not believe in the finished work of the cross. I cannot be a truly regenerate Christian of I do not hold to the Trinity. And I am not saved if I believe that Jesus's sacrifice is insufficient for the forgiveness of my sins. A heretic is a non believer, friend. They have placed their faith in a false-god, and in a false hope, and as such will not partake in the blessed hope that was promised to us, but instead shall be sent into the lake of fire, to suffer eternal torment by the will of God (lest they repent and turn from their ways). With love and concern for your soul I type this out to you. By your quick statement, you yourself have condemned millions and even countless believers to that pit of judgement. You have devoted the devoted followers of Christ Jesus, many of whom remained faithful unto a grim and terrible death, all because you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of another, non-heretical interpretation of spiritual gifts, and how they function in the church. For this one , non-salvation related issue, you have placed judgement on God's people, and it is no small thing. Please recant this condemnation of God's children, God bless. (Btw, I myself am a passionate continuationist, who genuinely believes that cessationism is a harmful and thoroughly incorrect teaching, and even a dangerous one)
Its the description of EVERY continuationist, because just about every modern "prophecy" is proven false or ambiguous, and that's the oft-repeated reason given. It's the only reason they can give.
1. Old Testament prophecy was not infallible - a note is made about Samuel in 1st Samuel 3:19 as a distinction. Some others seem to have needed to go to a prophet's school, whatever that was. Deuteronomy 18:22 makes the difference between a prophet that "has spoken presumptuously", and the ones mentioned before, that, by turning people towards other gods were to be executed. Not the misguided one. 2. The gifts were never only given as signs - unless you throw out everything what Paul wrote about them. Did Paul pray in tongues in his room to...give himself "signs"? And that is only one minute in. Cessationism not only disregards the Word in that it has no basis in It, but it also goes against It by ignoring uncomfortable passages. "But muh historical deductions" - well, it also ignores Christian history: the Fathers of the church that were continuationists, why the Reform needed cessationism against a Roman Catholic Church that was claiming miracles to show itself as "the real church". It ignores pope Calvin's own struggles with his own glosolalia experiences, he was agonizing over in some infamous letters. You won't hear these from any Cessationist. But you will hear many times instead that if you are a Continuationist, then you're a Kenneth Copeland-loving, chandelier-swinging Charismatic.
In both the Old and New Testament there were many prophecies that were never recorded probably because they were specific to a certain people at a certain time or place that were not relevant to the general revelation of God. These prophecies were not scripture. Also many OT prophecies could hardly be called "clear." They only became clear often 100 of years later & even then people disagree on the interpretation.
This is what courage looks like. I’m sick of people like John MacArthur speaking boldly but leaving out direct names. It’s cowardice. But this man Joel, he’s the real deal.
Aww, the courage to name names in a video title and yet not within the corpus of the substance of the message..? With “courage” like that who needs discernment.
@@cooljams_jams oh yeah, all that low hanging fruit that everyone already knows. What about ligon Duncan, Mohler, Piper, when is he going to actually name the real subversive people? Never. My god some people worship that man like he’s Christ and if one dare speak openly about disagreeing with him then it’s like you’re an apostate or something lol
In the Old Testament getting and being right with God was achieved by one way and in the New Testament getting and being right with God was achieved by another way, so yes OT prophecy could differ to NT prophecy.
genuine question pastor If revelation gifts ceased, then why need to weigh prophecy? not true vs false but all false?? I was bit confused for need… did prophecy decrease then cease by close of cannon?
@@solideomusical Hebrews 1 and 2 are convincing enough for me. No more prophets, holy spirit speaks, present tense, through words written thousands of years ago, ergo we conclude he speaks through the Bible and not audible impressions
@@horrificpleasantry9474 I agree- just wondering why the accuracy of a modern day 'prophecy' is a factor at all given that cessationists believe that the gift is no longer operative. So a person today claiming to be a prophet could have 100% accuracy and we would still consider him a false prophet.
Brother, be careful of casting aspersions on these men as if they are in the same category as a deceiver or heretic. The idea of “smuggled confusion into the church” is accusatory and divisive. The point you make can be made without the flash of the headline you give and the discrediting that the title of this segment promotes. While all of us pastors (including Piper and Chandler) need to be discerning and sensitive in the Scripture and its relevant and appropriate application, so do TH-cam titles and the posture of our media messaging. Piper and Chandler are not even cited in the message nor given a fair and thoughtful treatment. Would you say the same thing about John McArthur given he is premillennial? Has John “smuggled confusion into the church” as well? Therefore, please reconsider the title of this post.
They’ve brought in confusion on many things. Chandler discussed his dream, something about a pirate, and trying to determine what God was trying to tell him. Piper wrote An article prior to the election that Trump’s “mean tweets” were as evil as the pro abortion stance by the democrats, so it’s ok to vote Dem. Brother. I explore you to do research before slandering Joel when you are not studies up.
@@doingthingscheap7911 Didn't Piper said he wouldn't defend his wife if an intruder broke into his house? Clearly, he wouldn't defend his flock either because the world has broken into Christianity and he's done nothing.
I hung up on Matt Chandler when he had to make his snarky comment a while back when he said something to the effect that “your little AR15 is not going to protect you…”. Welcome to the woke soy church.
Do you ever think your interpretation of the scripture could be wrong? The debate surrounding the gifts has been going on for hundreds of years. Would you fellowship or learn from noncessationists? Knox wasn’t should we disregard his contribution towards the advancement of the gospel or what about John Wesley? I do agree there are some problematic takes with Chandler and Piper but this is one I don’t think I would take at this point in time.
I have to point out the fact that you (unintentionally) snuck in the word “profitable” when referring to prophets. Nice. My 7 year old would have died laughing.
1 corinthians 13:9 "For we know in part and we prophesy in part,".... Please explain. And I cant believe you would say that those who believe the "sign" gifts (there is no verse that says there are sign gifts) use eisegesis when you have literally no verse in the entire Bible to back your beleif. YOU read into the text some nonsence that tickles your logic. "Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up." ( 1 Cor 14:5).... "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." (1 Cor 14:37-38) You're opposing God and his Spirit
Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Not sure who this man is talking about. But he is way off...same GOD TODAY YESTERDAY AND FORE EVER MORE..NOT BECAUSE THERE ARE FALSE PROPHETS NOW DOESN'T MAKE GOD'S WORD TO BE DONE AWAY WITH.
How is it you believe in the supernatural but think the gifts are not for today? Prophecy isn’t always telling the future… a prophetic word can also be encouragement/edification. Sure there are false prophets, but there are real prophets; you’re just not looking for a them and dismissing the gifts out of hand. Sad
Shameless click bait lol. Do you have any teachings of where does it say the gifts have ceased. Because 98% of TV money grubbing charismatics make a mockery of the gifts it doesn't mean they ceased. I have experienced tonges as someone speaking their native language and others hearing their native tonges in an abortion clinic a few times and of course we still see healing not by 1 person specifically but by Gods will there's still healing. Maybe the sign gifts make a visit as God wills it (No verse to prove it either only experience) Can you point me in the direction where it says everything has ceased?
The gifts of the spirit are things that people can do at will, like any other talent. God certainly may heal miraculously in response to prayer or give a dream, but this is not because someone has the power within them and chooses to do it. By that fact alone, the sign gifts have ceased
@@horrificpleasantry9474 is there a teaching or debate you can think of that shows where the sign gifts have ceased? I'm trying to find clarity on the subject
@@joshporksandwich there's a couple of things to keep in mind. There is a difference between gifts, signs and miracles. The signs and wonders was given for a time to show unbelievers that the apostles came from God. It's was for non-believes. Now we have the Bible, the Bible is used to convince people to follow Christ. So if signs were still necessary today then the Bible wouldn't be enough. You wouldnt be able to believe in solo scriptura. Meaning the Bible alone. Basically we no longer need signs and wo ders since we have the Bible to show us truth.
@@horrificpleasantry9474 That’s not true. The order for prophecy which Paul prescribed in 1 Corinthians only makes sense if it is not by human will. Plus the nature of prophecy is dependent upon God to deliver a message to the prophet. If God is silent, then so was/is the prophet. Also, Paul didn’t heal Timothy. There is a good example of something not being done simply by will. And depending upon how you view the thorn in Paul’s flesh, if you take it as a physical infirmity then Paul couldn’t even heal himself. Also Jesus was unable to do miracles in places due to unbelief (it says so in Mark). Jesus submitted to the Spirit during His ministry and the Spirit did not allow Jesus to do miracles or signs there. The spiritual gifts are not shown to be merely talents but actual gifts that the Spirit gives and things dependent upon Him, like Samson’s strength or David’s fighting prowess. I’m just writing to correct what you say about the spiritual gifts being done by human will. Such has never been the case and it won’t be.
@@treychastain4686 thanks for your reply and I agree with Jesus purpose and his signs and miracles but when Paul mentions some of those 30 years later it's the clarity I'm looking for because it seems the early Christians were still doing something to that effect. And of course Jesus never spoke in tongues but some of those signs were still there. I'm probably not explaining it right sorry
Jesus says John the Baptizer was the last of the prophets. The spirit of prophecy however is still alive and well (1 Cor. 14:3). We must be clear on this, and you are not in this video.
@@anthonym.7653 Together with Franklin Graham and Robert jeffres, whom I now consider apostate, because they not only joined in prayer with heretics, but also endorsed her book. And Jerry Falwell Jr went all the way with sexual infidelity iirc, not with Paula White specifically
Uh… John Piper and Matt Chandler were not mentioned once in this clip. Stop name dropping to increase viewers. If you are insinuating that both Piper and Chandler are teaching what you are teaching against then provide evidence. There are also standards for false witness against a brother.
@@chrismatthews1762 - Perhaps. But that doesn’t address my critique. If you are going to call them out by name then provide evidence of what they actually teach and how it is wrong. Pastor Webbon knows what he is doing. He is using names that people search to increase viewership.
The #s are used to gain views. Nothing wrong with this as Pastor didn’t associate these men with things that are not readily available. Took me 30 seconds to get this quote from John Piper in a Desiring God post. “I take prophecy as something that God spontaneously brings to mind in the moment. And because we are fallible in the way we perceive it and the way we think about it and the way we speak it, it does not carry that same level of infallible, Scripture-level authority. And here are some reasons for why I think that is true and why I think it is still valid today.” John Piper
@@doingthingscheap7911 - See, even there you can’t provide the evidence… just the quote while leaving out the reasons he believes it. There is a disease in Christendom of men who think it is appropriate to use the platform of other men to build fame for themselves on social media platforms, tearing them down, while failing to deal honestly with the views of those men. Piper, Chandler, and Keller, etc… whipping boys for the social media warriors. Under the guise of “discernment” they strawman an opponent and then pretend that they are the true believers. It is disappointing. I disagree with Piper and Chandler on the gifts. But I wouldn’t straw man them like this to build up myself. Why don’t you show me the quote where Piper and Chandler teach that the congregation should discern the “percentage” of the prophecy that is accurate. That was Webbon’s claim right? That they teach that it is a “percentage” thing? Insist that your teachers deal honestly and fairly… especially when it comes to the brethren.
@@brentonstanfield5198 he is teaching how it's wrong. Quoting them is not necessary as the other two have pointed out. This is not an unprecedented assertion
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“Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good.”
1 Thessalonians 5:20-21
"God Doesn't Whisper" - Jim Osman - a much-needed book today.
Prophets of old were courageous men, called by God, to warn men to turn from sin and trust in God or judgement was coming. We prophesy over men today when we share the gospel with them. We call them to turn from sin and trust in Christ or judgement is coming.
We know what’s coming by hearing the Word of God.
Prophecy is not “hearing from the Lord” and speaking something new.
LOVE THIS
The Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. And still speaks to the heart of man. There’s nothing to prove otherwise.
Just because his nature and character are the same doesn’t mean he must always do the same things, this is a logical fallacy
@@rayortiz6189 explain.....
@@annieaviles4760 not sure what was unclear, but he has no obligation to give anybody a sign gift
1 Corinthians 12:11 (ESV): All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
Also, there is a purpose to a sign or wonder, it isnt just for show. Saying that his character is the same does not imply that he must do the same things at all times. Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel as a judgement against Israel. It was not an example of the normative life of the church. So just because the Spirit did that does not mean he will do that throughout time.
What he said
@@rayortiz6189 you did not explain one thing against the Truth that I shared. I will hold you to your claim; how has the Holy Spirit changed? The Bible verse you shared does in no way reveal a changing Spirit, but a dynamic one. Again…. where is your proof that the Holy Spirit has changed. The Holy Spirit continues to speak to the children of God. It is Christ who teaches us this; John 14;26, Matthew 10:20, John 6:13, 1 John 2:27, 1 Corinthians 2:9, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 12:8, Ephesians 1:17,…
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:17-21)
Peter was clearly talking about himself and the people in pentecost. This was a response to people wondering why that group of christians were behaving that way at the temple. I do think we should read the context.
Revelation. Interpretation. Application
Regardless, it’s a direct command to seek the gifts especially that you may prophecy. It’s a direct command not to despise prophecies. If you care about sola scriptura you should obey those texts too.
Paul said that to a Church living in a time that prophesy had not yet ceased. Isn't it interesting he does not say that to latter churches. He makes no mention of prophesying when giving instructions in the Pastoral Epistles. Don't you think if Paul wanted to give Titus and Timothy instructions for God's church before he died that he would have talked about those very important spiritual gifts, had they not ceased? But in his latter letters, such as Colossians, Philippians, Philemon, Titus, and 1-2 Timothy he makes no mention of these gifts at all, because they had served their purpose and ceased. Isn't it strange that Paul, who had formerly been able to heal sickness and disease, instructed Timothy "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities"? Why wouldn't Paul command Timothy to have a healer, if the gift still existed, to lay their hands on him and make him well? When not instruct Timothy to come to him and visit so he could make him well? Why did Paul pray to God 3x for his own thorn in the flesh, only to hear God say "my grace is sufficient for you"? Paul formerly, had the ability to heal, why not heal himself of his ailment in the flesh? Or why not turn to a healer, if they existed?
@@CH-xt4cr That's a LOT of reading between the lines and crosses very close to trying to invalidate the God breathed word. What other direct commands of God do you want to explain away so you can disobey?
@@JesusPeopleSF It's really not reading between the lines, it's actually quie clear if you study the topic. I tried to be concisde before, but here is a fuller explanation of why the gifts have ceased. docs.google.com/document/d/1UqJZ3loh9FEFT5eqYWbMMBVAS4mhYDDxMg2lY-J4XWs/edit?usp=sharing
That's like saying it's a direct command for you to wear a head covering. Do you wear head coverings? If not, you'll have to defend why you've picked and chosen which commands are relevant for today and which ones are not.
@@CH-xt4cr Well I am not female (1), and (2) I am not married (the command is for married women), so this is a moot point.
Next argument? You can shift the discussion anywhere you please but ultimately God hath spoken bud.
If humility prevails and the title of this video is changed, I think you’ll keep a lot more subscribers. But as has been mentioned, the title here is just out of place..and sadly not at all an uncommon trend amongst TH-camrs seeking to build audiences. Critique a big name, get views..effective..but not above reproach! Blazing gun polemic pastors firing off criticisms against men 5 decades their senior is a disturbingly trendy content niche these days. It hurts my soul. 1 Timothy 5:1 rings loudly. Live above the algorithm games, and more importantly..live above an inordinate lean towards polemics. TH-cam seems to attract a preponderance of people with the unique gifting of “polemic crusader”. But my hopes are that this is not at all going to be the trajectory of this channel and ministry!
A fair critique. I don’t always do this, but occasionally. I have spent hours upon hours fleshing out texts and doctrines without being unnecessarily polemical. And I agree with you that it is often cringeworthy when a young man critiques men who are twice his senior.
That said, Piper assured Christians they could vote for Joe Biden. I have no remaining respect for him. If he comes out with a public robust apology, I will reconsider. And Chandler made my wife and every other white pastor’s wife feel like a racist at every Acts 29 pastors retreat (I used to be an Acts 29 pastor). I don’t point the polemical barrels at just anyone. But these two men have earned it.
@@RightResponseMinistries Shouldn't you then make a video about those issues you mentioned in your comment, instead of using their names for click bait? When I first began watching your videos they were very enlightening bringing out clear content. Now they just seem to create controversy for the sake of controversy. I understand your view explained in this video, but it has nothing to do with the 2 men you mentioned in the title. 🤔
You're very first sentence shows that your concern is not with the heart of God but with losing suscribers. Any man of God should be more concerned with his responsibility in teaching the Word correctly than with youtube hits, as I see Mr. Webbon has strived for. Outing false teachings and false doctrines should be on the mind of every God fearing man because the "church" is rife with them.
@@mytreasuredcreations I understand your sentiment, and will take your feedback into prayerful consideration. That said, this particular video certainly has something to do with Piper and Chandler. The position on prophecy that I outline in the video is a clear and fair representation of what Piper and Chandler believe. These two men are two of the most well known individuals who hold to this view. They have taught this publicly and frequently.
I am skeptical of the honest intentions of anyone who says that people should not be warned that John Piper introduced or mainstreamed several serious errors into Reformed evangelicalism
I always was taught that if a prophecy did not come true, than it wasn't from God. Mormons have a theory called 'tacking,' that explains how they can have false prophecy. They say that it's like a ship moving in the sea, back and forth, to and from, until it finds the right path. I never heard a protestant make this sort of argument. Interesting word.
TY, I just learned something new.
Wow, I didn’t know that.
I know I'm late to the game here, but wanted to also say that this is a good, solid word. I've been listening to this channel more and more as what I'm hearing seems very biblically sound and robust.
Yeah, the sign gifts are an area of disagreement between me and Matt, which makes for rich conversation with my wife and kid (she's from a charismatic tradition in her childhood and he's still very young) after some Sunday services. "Confusion" is the word indeed, and the danger is a resultant frustration or disillusionment that ultimately leads to a janky worldview or even apostasy. Continuationist, by way of pure imagination, are blind to the simple fact that the miraculous has always been the exception. We're not to think that every merchant, farmer, mother, and child had the experience of their prophets and priests... that's why there were prophets and priests. Cessationism is no more a denial of the modern miracle than it is of miracles in biblical times. Rather, it hinges on the word "normative." A Cessationist who misunderstands this is just as much in error as the Continuationist.
The biggest eisegetes out of the two will always be the cessationists.
Pastor Joel, I really appreciate your teaching on God's design and order in the family, church and society, your preaching against antinomianism, against wokeness infiltrating the church and so on. With all due respect, I'm so sad to see you have gone horribly wrong here - to the extent of potentially blasphemy. Because people abuse the grace of God (antinomianism or easy believism) doesn't mean we invent another way for justification - they abuse it to their own peril and God's saving grace is only for the elect being saved. Likewise, because people abuse (or manifest counterfeits of) the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not mean we (knee-jerk) invent an idea that certain gifts have ceased (1 Cor 13:8 is talking about Christ's return you would agree). And please note Scripture does not categorise the 'sign gifts' (that you mentioned) separately from others (teaching, helping, administrating, ....). This issue is not about Piper or Chandler - this is about GOD's work in building his people up in faith in the church and man dare say anything he is not sure of. Both Old (Saul, Nathan) and New Testaments (Agabus, Philip the evangelist's daughters) have examples of people who prophesied but who were not inspired human authors of Scripture. However (from a cessationist perspective), if prophesy meant only speaking out Scripture (or teaching as some say), how could there be women who prophesy (in the sense of teaching as God's Word clearly prohibits it)? Thanks for the other video teaching (correctly) that headcovering is relevant and important to follow today as well but that teaching cannot make sense from the meaning 'cessationism' (at least what I have heard) gives the word prophecy either! I don't believe the apostle is commanding us to weigh or test whether something is Scripture on a day-to-day basis. We already know what Scripture is - Jesus attests Peter as the rock on which he will build the church and he in turn attests Paul's work as Scripture. I believe the apostle is asking us to weigh whether the prophecy (that which is not Scripture as in Acts 2:17) is of God or not - (1) it needs to conform to truth of Scripture, and (2) it will have to come to pass. I'm not considering the fallible prophecy argument coming apparently from Piper at all here. I believe it's not about the prophecy apart from Scripture being less certain than Scripture - it's that these two kinds of prophecies have different roles in the life of the church. The 'Scripture' category of prophecies coming from the biblical authors (either directly from apostles or written from apostolic tradition and therefore having apostolic authority in the NT) make them profitable and authoritative for teaching and allied activities (2 Tim 3:16). Whereas prophecy apart from Scripture has its own place and purpose in God's plan of building his church up - examples include foretelling the future (Acts 11:28, 21:10), causing conviction (1 Cor 14:24) and so on in individual/corporate lives and circumstances. I would really so encourage you to pray much about this matter and reconsider your teaching as it has great implications (1) you could be found misrepresenting God's sovereignty and ministry through the Holy Spirit (because it does not fit your theology), (2) people are being misled here, and (3) true believers are potentially being excluded from your ecumenism. I pray for your ministry and hope there will be great unity amongst true believers built through your work but I think you are not confident here and making a terrible mistake (which could have spiritual implications as we rely on God's support for victory). I hope all this makes sense to you, brother. The enforcement of the authority of Scripture alone (i.e. apostolic authority) in church does not need the support of a cessationist doctrine as true prophecies from true believers today will not compete with Scripture!
I didn't know about those excuses. (I'm calling them excuses.) The church I go to permits prophecy; so now I'm going to keep my ears open for their reasoning behind it. I have heard false prophecy, but I classified it as false prophecy, and my heart keeps me from wanting to call the person a false prophet. It's a very sad confliction to be in.
They can't permit something that doesn't happen
Hi, when a person has trusted a pastor, it isn't easy to walk away, until, as you are aware of, the false prophecies are not being critiqued by the church as is our responsibility.
As a believer and a disciple that does love our LORD, we desire to have the mind of Christ. Following what is written in scripture takes away all confusion, leaving us with a decision, whom do we follow? Hate what God hates .
The Holy Spirit has opened your eyes, where most will call you one who is causing division. Jesus was very effective in division from sin.
Leave. Just leave. It’s garbage.
@@christophercunningham5434 I am a strict follower of scripture. I dont make changes unless I have understanding that it is indeed scriptural. Sigh. Am I understanding from Pastor Joel, that a false prophecy only comes from a false prophet? 😳 oh gosh. I'm having a hard time with the necessary consequence of this possiblity that one can not utter a word of prophecy that is false. I may have been under false pastorate for years.
@@merrittascott4408 @Merritta Scott Hi, Merritta!
I really appreciate what you wrote. It's hard to believe that so many people I know and love could be in false religion, including I, myself. It's painful to think that they may all be on the path of perdition, if they know that they are sinning or are willfully ignorant. People are afraid to ask certain questions. We are told not to "correct the pastor". I must be sinning, otherwise it would be clear what situation I allowed myself to be in. I guess I've been making excuses by believing that the leaders are suffering from the imperfection of machismo or embarrassment of making a mistake.
Regarding division, I'm being shunned for causing division, but I was also told that I didn't do anything wrong. Doublespeak.
3:05 Hebrews 1 indicates that God formerly spoke through prophets but has spoken by His Son. Hebrews was written when Cessationists accepted prophesy was still an active gifting. How's that work?
I’m also hearing clear eisegesis when you are teaching, based on an assumption ( your word),that these gifts have ceased. Please exegete for us where these gifts ceased? Blessings
Hebrews 1 deals with prophecy, Paul's letter to Timothy demonstrates the lack of a healing gift, Paul mentions "the signs of an apostle" in another place...
@@horrificpleasantry9474 so this one verse….1Ti 5:23 (Stop drinking just water, but use a little wine for your digestion and your frequent illnesses.)…. Means that these verses…(1Co 12:7 To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all.
1Co 12:8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body - though many - are one body, so too is Christ.)… have ceased? Now that is a textbook example of eisegesis my friend! Your desire to find a proof text caused you to conclude that because he was told to use wine, that it is because the gifts had already ceased! Based on internal evidence that is roughly about a 10 year gap between the two writings. I’m still waiting for exegesis describing that the gifts that Paul lays out at Corinth have ceased? Blessings
Yep--as He decides, not as people have faith in the gifts. If the sign gifts were in play, then they would be visible in cessationist congregations, because they are faithful to the word. Your only way out of this is to conclude a) that Reformed Christianity is apostate, and go join a cult, or b) that God can't do anything unless we permit it, and go join a cult
@@horrificpleasantry9474 but you’re holding a presupposition with no biblical evidence. My initial question was/is ; is cessation taught in the New Covenant? If so please provide your doctrinal evidence?
Have you ever seen a legitimate verifiable evidence of the gifts and have you recorded the evidence for us to see? And no Todd White's leg lengthening doesn't count.
Sincere question here: can someone point me to a resource explaining 1 Cor 12? As to why these gifts mentioned are not all for today? Like when did they stop, who said so, where; if we read and get teachings today from these epistles, and are taught about being the Body of Christ and using our gifts (sermons made from this passage and others) then why ignore the “spiritual“ (if you will) gifts as tho they r not mentioned as part of this passage 😕☹️.
I probably butchered this paragraph, or really am unsure how to put my questions on the matter out there. 😞
You could watch these :
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th-cam.com/video/fZa0q_4o1j4/w-d-xo.html
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0:40 Stop slandering all continuationists. I don’t follow Piper or Chandler, nor believe in an unclear prophecy or a different standard for prophecy in the OT and NT. That’s what YOU believe: God spoke whenever He wanted back then, but He doesn’t anymore. There is nothing in the OT or NT says prophecy ceases at AD 70. That’s your extrabiblical dogma.
Amen bro cessationists would be dead in the water all day if it wasn’t for strawmanning
This is the predominant view among continuationists regarding the function of “New Testament prophecy.” I’m simply pointing out the problems with the view. If it’s not your view, then great.
Revelation 22 tho
i think it's easier to be a cessationist if you are post mil. when I was historic pre mil I had trouble understanding how you could argue that the gifts had ceased because it was hard to see the times had changed since the time of the apostles
Exactly right.
Even during the apostles times the application of the gifts decreased as Paul didn't heal but suggested wine for stomach issues
How did people 3000 years ago know a prophecy was from God when the prophecy was for the far distant future? Many have not happened yet, but they are considered scripture.
The natural must judge and fill saved
It doesn’t matter whether I agree with you. I hope for your sake that you are correct. The New Testament is clear about the responsibility of a self declared teacher. If you are wrong, standing before God with your human understanding and assurance of your spiritual correctness will get you nothing.
I believe the correct response here is to pray for the people that you have decided are wrong, let God work out the details in their life.
The arrogance of Calvinists knows very little restraint, even though their is some truth to their beliefs, this is a perfect example of message and delivery that serves no purpose other than to self edify the messenger.
Were they supposed to stone the New Testament prophet who prophesies falsely after they weighed what was said?
Thanks for naming names. I wasn't aware that Chandler and Piper were Continuationists. I can see from a comment below a quote from Piper proving he is a continuationist. I'm guessing from what I've found on the internet that Sam Storms, DA Carson, Mark Driscoll, Francis Chan and Wayne Grudem are also Continuationists. It's good to be aware of their theological positions before reading or listening to their teachings.
Yeah and Driscoll and chan are disqualified from teaching, Driscoll for being quarrelsome and Chan for partnering with NAR people and teaching blasphemous heresies.
@David, Correct. And each of those are good men, edifying in other respects. But they have to be discerned through their errors on the gifts of the Church.
Yet another so called discernment site I am about to block for denying the present day work of the Holy Spirit.
What names? He didn't name anyone.
Thank God for men who still support God present day work and oppose the unscroptural teaching of cessation.
Brother how can you even compare the two chandler whom is a social justice defender and a heretic, and piper who is not a cessationist. This cessationism topic is not a topic worth dividing for as long as all the other doctrine is straight. I'm baffled really.
In daniel 9:24-27, it’s clear that vision and prophecy would be sealed at the end of the 70 weeks. Furthermore, if we understand the 70 weeks of Daniel properly (without the inserted/forced gap between the 69 & 70 week), the sign gifts would be sealed at the fall of Jerusalem. The apostolic gifts were for the last days (Acts 2) of the old covenant system. We now have word made more sure (2 Peter 1:19).
Even if you're futurist, that interpretation makes sense, because the church age gap is considered to be part of the timeframe outside of when prophecy is fulfilled according to Daniel. It would be stopped until the tribulation comes
🤔 interesting.
The blame for the blasphemy in the church today comes from the prophecy in Dan7:25. It tells us there will come a time when an attempt to take away the Holy festivals Aaannd the ways of God will happen.
Daniel didn't know about valentine's day, Xmas, Easter, but he did know about Gods appointed times!
These changes happened at the council of nicea, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
Many of the changes are carried on in the catholic & protestant churches today!
So they have the guilt of carrying on these changes that upset Daniel!
Lots of hypocrisy in Christian church today!
Todays Christianity is not the Christianity that Jesus taught!!!!
@@qw2ps4 oh so you think the whole church is apostate, eh. Probably like your buddy's wife, too. Like Joseph Smith, Muhammad and all the other people throughout history have said the church is apostate...
100% agree. Thanks again brother. Please address 1 Thessalonians 5:219-21. That’s another one they go to. They say I (we) quench the spirit if I (we) say these special gifts have ceased. I think you pass fail analogy would fit here as well.
Good point. I’ll look into it.
So the assumption is that there are New Testament prophets? How would they function if all revelation is fulfilled and there is no longer, thus sayeth the Lord” but now, “thus the Lord hath previously spoke from Holy Scriptures.”??? Are there New Testament prophets called by the Lord?
Great message brother. What sermon is this from?
I believe it’s my sermon on Hebrews 1:1-3.
Cessationism is by far the greatest heresy of our time and the greatest example of Eisegesis I can think of. There is no scriptural support for the cessationist viewpoint and it has systematically robbed the church of its identity and power for centuries. Truly heart breaking…
The first sentence is going way too far but I agree with the rest
For the continuationist to read themselves into the apostolic gifts. To grab them and rob them of their original purpose is the greatest form of eisegesis. Don’t you agree? And no, it is not eisegesis because we read the sign gifts and prophecy as they are. They were things that happened. We have no right to yank them into the present.
This is one of the most overdramatic dogmatic comments. The Bible supports cessationism and its true, but continuationists arent heretics.
Sir, I know this was posted a year ago, but I think you need to face the reality of what you just said (unless you already have ofc). How is it possible for a heretic to be a Christian? To be a devout follower of Jesus Christ, having placed their faith wholly in Him as their one and only hope for salvation? Is it indeed possible for a true and genuine believer of Jesus Christ to ALSO believe in salvation by works? (I don't mean a new Christian). What about the nature of God? Can I be a believer who is going to heaven is I don't think Jesus and the Holy Spirit are themselves members of an eternal trinity, one God?
The answer is of course, no. I cannot be a genuine believer if I do not believe in the finished work of the cross. I cannot be a truly regenerate Christian of I do not hold to the Trinity. And I am not saved if I believe that Jesus's sacrifice is insufficient for the forgiveness of my sins. A heretic is a non believer, friend. They have placed their faith in a false-god, and in a false hope, and as such will not partake in the blessed hope that was promised to us, but instead shall be sent into the lake of fire, to suffer eternal torment by the will of God (lest they repent and turn from their ways).
With love and concern for your soul I type this out to you. By your quick statement, you yourself have condemned millions and even countless believers to that pit of judgement. You have devoted the devoted followers of Christ Jesus, many of whom remained faithful unto a grim and terrible death, all because you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of another, non-heretical interpretation of spiritual gifts, and how they function in the church. For this one , non-salvation related issue, you have placed judgement on God's people, and it is no small thing. Please recant this condemnation of God's children, God bless.
(Btw, I myself am a passionate continuationist, who genuinely believes that cessationism is a harmful and thoroughly incorrect teaching, and even a dangerous one)
What you described as New Testament prophesy is a description I have never heard from any continuationist.
Its the description of EVERY continuationist, because just about every modern "prophecy" is proven false or ambiguous, and that's the oft-repeated reason given. It's the only reason they can give.
So where do Chandler and Piper come into this?
I was wondering the same thing
Matt chandler is a solid exegete.
1. Old Testament prophecy was not infallible - a note is made about Samuel in 1st Samuel 3:19 as a distinction. Some others seem to have needed to go to a prophet's school, whatever that was.
Deuteronomy 18:22 makes the difference between a prophet that "has spoken presumptuously", and the ones mentioned before, that, by turning people towards other gods were to be executed. Not the misguided one.
2. The gifts were never only given as signs - unless you throw out everything what Paul wrote about them. Did Paul pray in tongues in his room to...give himself "signs"?
And that is only one minute in.
Cessationism not only disregards the Word in that it has no basis in It, but it also goes against It by ignoring uncomfortable passages.
"But muh historical deductions" - well, it also ignores Christian history: the Fathers of the church that were continuationists, why the Reform needed cessationism against a Roman Catholic Church that was claiming miracles to show itself as "the real church".
It ignores pope Calvin's own struggles with his own glosolalia experiences, he was agonizing over in some infamous letters.
You won't hear these from any Cessationist. But you will hear many times instead that if you are a Continuationist, then you're a Kenneth Copeland-loving, chandelier-swinging Charismatic.
In both the Old and New Testament there were many prophecies that were never recorded probably because they were specific to a certain people at a certain time or place that were not relevant to the general revelation of God. These prophecies were not scripture.
Also many OT prophecies could hardly be called "clear." They only became clear often 100 of years later & even then people disagree on the interpretation.
This is what courage looks like. I’m sick of people like John MacArthur speaking boldly but leaving out direct names. It’s cowardice. But this man Joel, he’s the real deal.
Aww, the courage to name names in a video title and yet not within the corpus of the substance of the message..? With “courage” like that who needs discernment.
MacArthur names name like every day. You can’t go 10 minutes through the Strange Fire conference without him dropping another name.
@@danmiller1624 awe with the ability to watch an entire video and it just the shortened one.
@@cooljams_jams oh yeah, all that low hanging fruit that everyone already knows. What about ligon Duncan, Mohler, Piper, when is he going to actually name the real subversive people? Never. My god some people worship that man like he’s Christ and if one dare speak openly about disagreeing with him then it’s like you’re an apostate or something lol
@@christophercunningham5434, I mean, I don't disagree with you. I'm not "you people."
Whatbhas this to do with John piper and Matt Chandler??!! Furthermore you should read Hebrews 1:1-2.
In the Old Testament getting and being right with God was achieved by one way and in the New Testament getting and being right with God was achieved by another way, so yes OT prophecy could differ to NT prophecy.
genuine question pastor
If revelation gifts ceased, then why need to weigh prophecy? not true vs false but all false?? I was bit confused for need… did prophecy decrease then cease by close of cannon?
Yes.
I have entertained the same question: if there are no more prophets then they are all false- regardless of accuracy
@@solideomusical Hebrews 1 and 2 are convincing enough for me. No more prophets, holy spirit speaks, present tense, through words written thousands of years ago, ergo we conclude he speaks through the Bible and not audible impressions
@@horrificpleasantry9474 I agree- just wondering why the accuracy of a modern day 'prophecy' is a factor at all given that cessationists believe that the gift is no longer operative. So a person today claiming to be a prophet could have 100% accuracy and we would still consider him a false prophet.
@@solideomusical Good point. It's not good enough to make a bare minimum argument
God poured his spirit out on all flesh… except cessationists
Brother, be careful of casting aspersions on these men as if they are in the same category as a deceiver or heretic. The idea of “smuggled confusion into the church” is accusatory and divisive. The point you make can be made without the flash of the headline you give and the discrediting that the title of this segment promotes. While all of us pastors (including Piper and Chandler) need to be discerning and sensitive in the Scripture and its relevant and appropriate application, so do TH-cam titles and the posture of our media messaging. Piper and Chandler are not even cited in the message nor given a fair and thoughtful treatment. Would you say the same thing about John McArthur given he is premillennial? Has John “smuggled confusion into the church” as well? Therefore, please reconsider the title of this post.
They absolutely have introduced confusion into the church via their view of prophecy for today.
They’ve brought in confusion on many things. Chandler discussed his dream, something about a pirate, and trying to determine what God was trying to tell him. Piper wrote An article prior to the election that Trump’s “mean tweets” were as evil as the pro abortion stance by the democrats, so it’s ok to vote Dem.
Brother. I explore you to do research before slandering Joel when you are not studies up.
The title is generous. Piper and Chandler are spineless snakes who have delivered the church into jaws of the godless wolves of the world.
Confusion is a good word here. It’s like nailing jello on the wall with Piper and Chandler.
@@doingthingscheap7911 Didn't Piper said he wouldn't defend his wife if an intruder broke into his house? Clearly, he wouldn't defend his flock either because the world has broken into Christianity and he's done nothing.
I hung up on Matt Chandler when he had to make his snarky comment a while back when he said something to the effect that “your little AR15 is not going to protect you…”. Welcome to the woke soy church.
Yep. I used to really like Chandler, but he’s a liberal now.
@@RightResponseMinistries so? God forbid a Christian has a different political opinion than you🙄🙄🙄
You would do better if you take piper’s position point by point and comment on it
Do you ever think your interpretation of the scripture could be wrong? The debate surrounding the gifts has been going on for hundreds of years. Would you fellowship or learn from noncessationists? Knox wasn’t should we disregard his contribution towards the advancement of the gospel or what about John Wesley? I do agree there are some problematic takes with Chandler and Piper but this is one I don’t think I would take at this point in time.
good teaching Brother!
I have to point out the fact that you (unintentionally) snuck in the word “profitable” when referring to prophets. Nice. My 7 year old would have died laughing.
Chandler's biggest problem is CRT wokeness.
Click bait!!!! Had nothing to do with the names mentioned. Kind of deceitful, don't you think?
Womp womp
"Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge" judge ? greetings from germany !
1 corinthians 13:9 "For we know in part and we prophesy in part,".... Please explain. And I cant believe you would say that those who believe the "sign" gifts (there is no verse that says there are sign gifts) use eisegesis when you have literally no verse in the entire Bible to back your beleif. YOU read into the text some nonsence that tickles your logic. "Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up." ( 1 Cor 14:5).... "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." (1 Cor 14:37-38) You're opposing God and his Spirit
Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Not sure who this man is talking about. But he is way off...same GOD TODAY YESTERDAY AND FORE EVER MORE..NOT BECAUSE THERE ARE FALSE PROPHETS NOW DOESN'T MAKE GOD'S WORD TO BE DONE AWAY WITH.
How is it you believe in the supernatural but think the gifts are not for today? Prophecy isn’t always telling the future… a prophetic word can also be encouragement/edification.
Sure there are false prophets, but there are real prophets; you’re just not looking for a them and dismissing the gifts out of hand. Sad
I agree, could you do a video on Doug Wilson’s ecumenism?
What proof do you have of Doug Wilson's ecumenism?
Yep, i agree, title is misleading but the content is good. Clickbait to be sure
Peculiar Piper and Cringy Chandler are exactly what is wrong with the Pop Reformed movement.
How so? What did they say about this?
Shameless click bait lol. Do you have any teachings of where does it say the gifts have ceased. Because 98% of TV money grubbing charismatics make a mockery of the gifts it doesn't mean they ceased. I have experienced tonges as someone speaking their native language and others hearing their native tonges in an abortion clinic a few times and of course we still see healing not by 1 person specifically but by Gods will there's still healing. Maybe the sign gifts make a visit as God wills it (No verse to prove it either only experience) Can you point me in the direction where it says everything has ceased?
The gifts of the spirit are things that people can do at will, like any other talent. God certainly may heal miraculously in response to prayer or give a dream, but this is not because someone has the power within them and chooses to do it. By that fact alone, the sign gifts have ceased
@@horrificpleasantry9474 is there a teaching or debate you can think of that shows where the sign gifts have ceased? I'm trying to find clarity on the subject
@@joshporksandwich there's a couple of things to keep in mind. There is a difference between gifts, signs and miracles. The signs and wonders was given for a time to show unbelievers that the apostles came from God. It's was for non-believes. Now we have the Bible, the Bible is used to convince people to follow Christ. So if signs were still necessary today then the Bible wouldn't be enough. You wouldnt be able to believe in solo scriptura. Meaning the Bible alone. Basically we no longer need signs and wo ders since we have the Bible to show us truth.
@@horrificpleasantry9474
That’s not true. The order for prophecy which Paul prescribed in 1 Corinthians only makes sense if it is not by human will. Plus the nature of prophecy is dependent upon God to deliver a message to the prophet. If God is silent, then so was/is the prophet.
Also, Paul didn’t heal Timothy. There is a good example of something not being done simply by will. And depending upon how you view the thorn in Paul’s flesh, if you take it as a physical infirmity then Paul couldn’t even heal himself.
Also Jesus was unable to do miracles in places due to unbelief (it says so in Mark). Jesus submitted to the Spirit during His ministry and the Spirit did not allow Jesus to do miracles or signs there.
The spiritual gifts are not shown to be merely talents but actual gifts that the Spirit gives and things dependent upon Him, like Samson’s strength or David’s fighting prowess.
I’m just writing to correct what you say about the spiritual gifts being done by human will. Such has never been the case and it won’t be.
@@treychastain4686 thanks for your reply and I agree with Jesus purpose and his signs and miracles but when Paul mentions some of those 30 years later it's the clarity I'm looking for because it seems the early Christians were still doing something to that effect. And of course Jesus never spoke in tongues but some of those signs were still there. I'm probably not explaining it right sorry
Lucas 13:25.
*Luke
Jesus says John the Baptizer was the last of the prophets. The spirit of prophecy however is still alive and well (1 Cor. 14:3). We must be clear on this, and you are not in this video.
And if tongues and prophecy is good enough for Paula White...
Oh you know Paula White likes it when she gets the gift of a tongue...
@@horrificpleasantry9474 and she prophesied over Trump. So all good.
@@anthonym.7653 Together with Franklin Graham and Robert jeffres, whom I now consider apostate, because they not only joined in prayer with heretics, but also endorsed her book. And Jerry Falwell Jr went all the way with sexual infidelity iirc, not with Paula White specifically
Such a heretic!
There are other definitions of prophesying in the Old Testament. Look at Saul
Uh… John Piper and Matt Chandler were not mentioned once in this clip. Stop name dropping to increase viewers. If you are insinuating that both Piper and Chandler are teaching what you are teaching against then provide evidence. There are also standards for false witness against a brother.
Pastor is assuming anyone who knows Piper and Chandler’s teachings is aware that they are continuationists.
@@chrismatthews1762 - Perhaps. But that doesn’t address my critique. If you are going to call them out by name then provide evidence of what they actually teach and how it is wrong. Pastor Webbon knows what he is doing. He is using names that people search to increase viewership.
The #s are used to gain views. Nothing wrong with this as Pastor didn’t associate these men with things that are not readily available. Took me 30 seconds to get this quote from John Piper in a Desiring God post.
“I take prophecy as something that God spontaneously brings to mind in the moment. And because we are fallible in the way we perceive it and the way we think about it and the way we speak it, it does not carry that same level of infallible, Scripture-level authority. And here are some reasons for why I think that is true and why I think it is still valid today.” John Piper
@@doingthingscheap7911 - See, even there you can’t provide the evidence… just the quote while leaving out the reasons he believes it. There is a disease in Christendom of men who think it is appropriate to use the platform of other men to build fame for themselves on social media platforms, tearing them down, while failing to deal honestly with the views of those men. Piper, Chandler, and Keller, etc… whipping boys for the social media warriors.
Under the guise of “discernment” they strawman an opponent and then pretend that they are the true believers. It is disappointing. I disagree with Piper and Chandler on the gifts. But I wouldn’t straw man them like this to build up myself.
Why don’t you show me the quote where Piper and Chandler teach that the congregation should discern the “percentage” of the prophecy that is accurate. That was Webbon’s claim right? That they teach that it is a “percentage” thing?
Insist that your teachers deal honestly and fairly… especially when it comes to the brethren.
@@brentonstanfield5198 he is teaching how it's wrong. Quoting them is not necessary as the other two have pointed out. This is not an unprecedented assertion
This is not good
I'm a continuationist, because it's Biblical. It's not extra-Biblical.
Piper isn’t a completely bad guy, he’s just a bit effeminate. I wouldn’t be surprised if