Thanks as always Paul. I would like to make something clear which I made explicit at the end of my discussion with Jonathan and Jordan This that the core of my concern was not my personal salvation. I understand that this issue frustrates some of your viewers. But that was not and should not be my main concern. My main concern was in addressing the meta-crisis and meaning crisis. For this there seem to be three options. The first is business as usual which does not seem like a good idea at all. The second is for all the Christian (or Buddhist etc) groups to unify and then convert the world. While the probability of this is not zero I think history provides good evidence that is very low. The third is to afford dialogos between faith/wisdom communities in the hope of affording a distributed cognition that can address our situation. While the probability of this is also low I believe given historical examples and what is happening right now ( what I call the advent of the sacred) it is a significant enough probability that we should consider it. Thank you again Paul for your kind and generous treatment of my work.
I hope to engage your conversation with Jonathan and Jordan further and I'll probably start at the end of it. I think that helps then frame what came before it. Thanks again John.
@@PaulVanderKlay I like to be an optimist but sadly the majority of people aren't going to go on a spiritual journey in life. Trying to keep positive here, but keeping the bunker stocked with shotguns and canned food just in case!
As with anything you guys have been doing in this community engagement, which I've been following and I consider myself part of by participating in your dialogos (I'm grateful to all of you for this), I need to ask you to define what is your "personal salvation." Sometimes the religious language, besides being a turn-off, it's easy to be taken out of context, and used for psychological abuse of those who may themselves dealing with a crisis of meaning.
@@johnvervaeke2589 Dear John, hello. I agree regarding the helpfulness and am encouraged by loving conversation that seeks to edify. I get the impression that edification is implicit in dialogos. I'm sorry I still haven't watched most of the above video yet. I think the responsible human body, the human individual, has a responsibility to learn to heal in general, which involves helping each other to heal and that we are called to help edify a flourishing community that bio-logically stewards the ecosystem that includes the responsible human body. I think we are called to an international (and national) cosmopolitanism that is rooted in family and local community. The responsibility to learn results in the need for discussion, a vote to be considered. I am a Christian who has stayed overnight in a Tibetan Buddhist monastery; I was more learning than discussing in the monastery and I'm not sure if it was spirituality okay for me to stay there. I noticed Genie like paintings on the wall of their temple and asked a monk to explain them. He said they were depicting beings that appeared to monks as they meditated. There were also two small stone huts outside the temple and inside one a person had been isolating/meditating for three months (before covid existed), and meals were given through a slit in the door. As far as I can tell, the Christian trajectory of resurrection aims at the continual flourishing of the responsible human body in and for community. As far as I can remember, the Tibetan Buddhist goal was to escape our human responsibility. I'm not saying it's wrong to spend time on our own; but it is evidently wrong for a person to walk away from our responsibility. There was, as far as I can tell, an irony in that people had gathered together to help each other escape their human responsibility. As far as I can tell, it would be a massive presumption to imagine that we have some non-human or more than human responsibility to heal a supposed rift from a wider unity through meditated chanting. I suspect that the Logos would prefer it if the person trying to escape their human responsibility put themselves forward as a candidate in the US presidential election. I think that would be the logical (loving) thing to do that would cohere with the human responsibility to learn to heal. I've had a next door neighbour who was another kind of Buddhist who was apparently expressing love rather than trying to escape love, another told me that relational love, whilst not being their ultimate future goal was appropriate for this lifetime; as edifying love is appropriate for this lifetime I think that that fact implies a relational attitude between a creator and the created, the created for whom logical love is logical with respect to responsibility. I think we have good reason to seek and love the Holy Spirit and to disagree with and I think stay clear of any spirit who distracts us from our bio-logical responsibility to learn to bio-logically steward that we know exists; I think we should stay clear of any spirit who doesn't acknowledge Jesus (who is evidently the Logos made flesh) as the Lord they want to logically respect and serve. You have God and His Church at your service. God bless
I've been on my spiritual journey fairly much alone. A married and my wife and I agree. So it's basically us. But I've been longing for others, particularly men, to come beside me for us to work together. But it almost never works. I had never heard of communion of the saints before. But I genuinely think that may be my heart's deepest aspiration
Some of the smartest, most well read people I’ve met returned to a simple faith. You can’t unravel an infinite puzzle and have to submit to it or struggle forever through purgatory (figuratively, but sorta literally).
It would be interesting to hear you talk about the struggle of a healthy community within the family based on modernities economic situations regarding the youth. Another way of saying this is I see families living together longer. I have older kids that are living with me trying to save up to buy a house.
Hi Paul, I think the answer to our culture must be techno political as well as psycho spiritual. Techno political is the top down aspect. Fix it at the top. New decrees, policies, theory. Psycho spiritual is the bottom up aspect. Fix it at the individual level with people becoming good in their personal lives I think to say the answer is ONLY relational is not recognizing the power of the Angelic over the Demonic. What do you think?
Another description of sophisticated is mentioned about the 16 min mark "they've got a lot of stuff in their head " it's debatable whether or not that's a good or a bad thing, especially when the modern world has a never ending fountain of "knowledge" and ideas......... can that be dangerous for the lay person....... how do you manage that, not be overwhelmed, become addicted too... etc ? Estuary and TLC are certainly a good outlet ....... but "What Should We Do?" ⚔ and "What Should We Not Do? " 🛡 🙏🙏🙏
Mark L, in his recent monologue, made a keen observation by linking the rising fascination with the divine feminine to the nurturing comfort of a mother. This connection brings to mind a phenomenon I encountered during my research on cults, known as abdication syndrome. It's where there is this unconscious desire of some people to return to a state of early childhood, when their parents controlled their lives and protected them from the world. They’re trying to rekindle that childhood state of total trust and lack of responsibility. For them, the goal is to find a sanctuary where they don’t feel insecure, incomplete, or confused anymore. They can just bask in the unconditional love and protection of the group, as they used to with their parents. It is, after all, the mother who instills that foundational sense of security and nurturing care in our formative years. The issue is that when you lend your agency to a group, you leave yourself open and susceptible to subtle influences that surround you, like Hermes.
Cognitive overload, characterized by constant overthinking and analysis, can leave people particularly vulnerable. When you disconnect from your own feelings and constantly look outward, you become susceptible to the principalities and powers that are all around you i.e , excercise one spirit only to have 7 take it's place. While this approach might offer a brief escape from suffering and a false sense of control, it often worsens the underlying problems. It’s similar to the pattern seen in boulimia: you overconsume information, then feel the need to purge out of guilt. This creates a vicious cycle that can be hard to break free from.
Perhaps cogntive overload has always been the telos of the internet, a notion that its creators were oblivious to. In the past, I dismissed the fundamentalists of the late 90s and early 2000s as eccentric and paranoid for claiming that "www" represented 666. However, as time goes on, I find myself reconsidering their perspective and questioning whether they were onto something.
There are some good comments about how the techno-political is still relevant, whether necessarily or as a mere matter of fact. This reminds me of one of the points in the JP/JV discussion, touching on emergence from below and emanation from above (in Matthieu Pageau's terms, an expressing/informing or founding/establishing dynamic). I wonder if relational and techno-political systems have an expressing/informing dynamic. Relationships create a sort of potential, and explicit systems inform and give purpose to that potential. If so, then we have an argument for the necessity of the techno-political, and the next question seems to be, how do we manage it? My answer lately is "don't try" (good fit with "the end of strategy") - it’s not actually the right question! My current question is how to relate to such things given that “management” and “control” are presumptuous errors.
Best answer I have is don’t grasp, but surrender, pray, see what God does. (Seems like PVK’s strategy with relation to TLC.) This is not satisfying - probably because for me this is still much more propositional than participatory.
This is why we want to move back towards God ”We live in a world where trust is gone. Our reality in which we dwell misses the mark. We seek for grounding, but all we find is shifting sand. Our eyes look for land but all we see is the sea. We hear of war, strife, and desensitize with more chaos to come. Our ears preserve the noise of our day with more babble for days and days. In all this... I will listen for your voice, O Lord. My ears will strain to perceive your word, O Lord. I will seek your face, O Lord. My eyes will see your truth and desire your beauty, O Lord. I will live in your truth, O Lord. For in you, O Lord, I live, move, and breathe; let your reality be what I trust and where I find my rest.”
In Yarvin's Cathedral, he believes that the current structure of the power that governs us is a network between the academy, the media, and the civil service. Starting with GamerGate, a competing media network formed because of the obvious falseness of the legacy media. The IDW grew from academics who found themselves dissident to the academy. Although the IDW collapsed, there's still a growing active network of academics doing scholarship on the internet. I would surmise that Eric Prince getting involved in politics, and Thiel making public appearances, is a sign that a competing civil network will form. It seems there are pillars of a parallel Cathedral forming. The new organs are qualitatively different by being more ethereal networks, than established institutions. How can these siloed archipelagos strengthen each other like how Yarvin's Cathedral is self supporting? I agree the solution is relational, but the relations between giants matter too and that means technology and politics.
Yarvin and Thiel are both capitalists complaining about liberalism, with about as much coherence as that sentence implies. What is the actual end of their battle with woke and establishment liberalism? They refuse to say that, mostly because they appear to both want to destroy the liberal nation state, yet also just have the same general politics as Ted Cruz depending on the day.
I didn't stop to think how beautiful the Peterson and Vervaeke conversation was, thank you for pointing this out :). Although I was disappointed I couldn't watch their full convo, as part of it was behind a paywall on Daily Wire
My wish is that Chris Green and Jonathan Pageau would have a conversation about Eschatology. May sound random, but there are some interesting parallels I’m seeing that also showed up in conversations Dr. Green at Northwesturary 2024
C.S.Lewis made the analogy of society being like a ship and unity is essential if one is trying to steer a community in a certain direction. Clever guys like Bret Weinstein are so befuddled when it comes to problems like this but if he just got involved with a church like Jordan Hall did i think so much would become clear!
Important people are deluded by their own importance. This world is a Ship Of Fools, and the crew and captain of the moment are pirates. But not as funny as Captain Jack Sparrow ;-)
@@williambranch4283 Luke's relational role in TLC often is that, yes 👍🙏❤ I notice a difference I find important to say, between "Luke is" vs. "Luke's (relational) role is". ❤️ Identity vs. role in a relationship 🙏
@airanderal Where abouts are you? There's a discord server that could connect you with some that get together for an estuary. Here in Leipzig, Germany, we will have our first next weekend. A contact from a meet up in Landau two years ago sparked it.
I didn't deconstruct, in spite of problems, 38 years of church so far. I was domicided by the struggles of family and community ... and cut adrift from my support network by death, retirement and lockdown. TLC has helped me these last two years, until a new religious community happened along. But now it is a part of my daily habits, just as my weekly church activity is.
I’m of two minds with a video like this. I agree that the techno-political is not our solution, but I also can’t quite separate the the political from “religio” in this sort of secular vs sacred dichotomy
Religion is about community and so is politics. But it seems the political community is sick. Can you nurse the political community back to health? Are you well enough yourself or do you need the care of a religious community yourself?
Paul, as I listened to this video, I noticed that John Eldridge’s Wild at Heart podcast episode was on the right side as a recommendation. On the thumbnail? “It’s relationship that’s the cause of your wounding. And your healing.” A coincidence? I think not.
Eldredge gets some flak for his first book. And I'm reading it for the first time, finding that most of the flak is deserved. But the heart of the book and the focus of much of Eldredge's work in the past 10 years (book was published 20 years ago) is radical relational community in a re-enchanted world. There's a lot to like about that thesis and ethos.
When you first brought out the comparison between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant you had poetry and music for the Protestants. What has changed that now the focus is on preaching?
Did anyone ever explain why Jordan Greenhall became Jordan Hall? I don't see all the videos, so if he told that story at one point I missed it. Also, if you Google Jordan Hall you get to read about a building in Boston.
He said in a video (I cant recall which one a few years ago) his first wife's last name was Green, his was Hall and combined them. They got divorced and when he married his 2nd wife he dropped the Green from Greenhall.
Amen to that. The problem being, relationality is harder to monetize ;-) The thought that little you will change big society, is pushing a rope. Simply be your best self and leave the rest to G-d.
In-person conversations and spending time with people-just walking and eating together-seem to help counteract the tendency towards fruitless, disembodied cognition. I suspect that if Brett and Heather Weinstein ever find their way into faith, it will be Heather leading the way. It’s a generalisation, but women seem to be less prone to mind-body disconnection than men, perhaps for obvious biological reasons.
Jesus Seminar was fun, back in the day when "historical" Jesus was worth pursuing. The "words of Jesus" is different from the "acts of Jesus". They did much better with the "words of Jesus" It takes the knitting together of both, to make a Gospel. That is why Thomas is not a Gospel ... but a Gnostic list of profound koans.
I understand your point of view, but I am weary of Vervaeke. I rarely listen to him anymore, aside from this latest couple of videos. And the real reason is that he is not being honest. You cannot have “dialogos” when someone’s mind is utterly closed. And he has made it clear that his is, relentlessly. So what’s left? Him pushing his warmed-over Boomer New-Ageism, which is not remotely compelling. And him continually bobbing and weaving, presenting what he clearly believes is his profound intellect, all in the service of refusing the answer to all of his lengthy speechifying. Meanwhile, the world continues to disintegrate. The problems he acknowledges get worse. People are literally dying, from drugs and otherwise. Luckily, everything does not depend on John Vervaeke accepting Christ. But at this point, when you have many atheists acknowledging the necessity of Christianity, and in some cases actually converting, Vervaeke’s continued defiant pursuit of syncretism and Eastern mysticism is not contributing anything. Richard Dawkins is now arguably more sympathetic to Christianity than Vervaeke is. To put it simply, Christianity is the foundation of Western Civilization, and it is the only answer to “the meaning crisis”, and Vervaeke will let the world burn rather than accept it, because he hates his parents. Which could be a summary of the entire Baby Boom generation. He has made that clear. He does not contribute anything useful to these conversations, he just bangs on relentlessly about his personal obsessions, and retreats to his “childhood trauma”, which is frankly less severe than many have experienced, despite being an aging man with enough education to overcome it and see things more clearly. He knows that version of Christianity he was raised with was not common, much less the only way, but he still rejects all of it on those grounds. As I said, I do not believe he’s being honest. I think he has other motives, and that’s his excuse. As such, I think his only real motive for participating in these discussions is attention, and these are the only people who will give it to him. That’s the only conclusion that I can reach about him. He is boring precisely because he shuts the door. What’s left to talk about when you have made your position clear, as he has, over and over again? I don’t look forward to his participation in Peterson’s gospel seminar. That doesn’t mean there’s no hope for him, and things might not change. But when it comes to the conversation he’s trying to participate in, about society as a whole, he’s not contributing anything useful.
@@PaulVanderKlay Jordan Hall is very interesting. I think my impatience with these discussions is that however much anyone, including Jordan Peterson, attempts to contextualize Christianity within the modernist/materialist frame, at the end of the day, the deciding factor, as you know, is faith. John 3:16. So if salvation literally hinges on believing what you cannot see, and people are determined to avoid it, it is all ultimately futile. All the efforts of Peterson, Holland, etc. can walk them and others up to the door, but if they won’t go through it, it was for nothing. “Cultural Christianity” or “civilizational Christianity” is not enough to save the West. And that’s the line that all of this refuses to cross. The other thing that is usually studiously avoided is the topic of sin. The reality of sin, and the need for forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ, taking the punishment for us on the cross, is the entire point of Christianity. “Without faith, it is impossible to please God”. So people can talk around it in circles endlessly, but if they’re not willing to believe what they can’t see, what hasn’t been proven to them scientifically, it doesn’t matter. In Vervaeke’s case, he continually, emphatically, states over and over in every conversation that he will never believe. And his continual hand-waving show of being open to discussion, and “not wanting to offend” Christians, is really an admission of his actual position, which is hostility. He’s fighting for his own philosophy, and against Christianity. While God will have patience for him, in the context of discussions about solving the ills of society, he contributes nothing. Except a whole lot of wind. I guess I am still undecided about whether “cultural Christianity” is better than nothing. It is at least an opening. But I know it isn’t enough. And the real thing is not really being discussed in any of this, except for people like Hall who have actually gone through the door. At some point, is the discussion actually keeping people from faith? If that subject is never even breached? The fallen state of man, the need for redemption, the hand of God (and Satan) in the history of the world, all of these foundational elements of the Christian world view, are mostly off limits. The assumption, spoken or not, is that the Bible is a book of literature written by humans, which perhaps contains wisdom, but is ultimately fiction. And “science” (or academic fields that pretend to be science) is holy writ, and is untouchable. That is the premise that almost all of these discussions start with.
I disagree with your perception of dishonesty. I find John to be a very honest interlocutor and a very exciting thinker. A clearly influential voice in this whole conversation, which is undoubtedly bringing many people closer to God. What you see as dishonesty I see as the Holy Spirit (and the Logos 😅) working overtime within his soul. And I see him squirming, of course. But I don't see that the squirming has done much progress in the way of shaking off and closing the door to the Holy Spirit.
Politicians don't do any good. They are manipulators and play with legislation and goverance to present an ideological image. I wish there was another name other than politician for those who try to participate in the process of governance for the actual betterment and balance of the community they represent, be it at the local, state, or national level. Maybe they just need to be called representatives--leave the term politician as a moniker for those who like to play political games
Good stuff, Paul. Your work has definitely not been in vain. This is my first comment after watching many videos starting earlier this year and then attending the Olympia conference. I met up with another rando attendee yesterday who lives in my area and we're hoping to start an estuary group soon. Was great meeting you at the conference...I would have never guessed I'd be playing a shoulder touching game outside on the lawn of a CRC church in Olympia with PVK!
Thanks for noting this. It's often hard for me to see through the gmail handles and touch the person. I enjoyed hearing some of your story and playing with you in Olympia! :)
@PaulVanderKlay I can only imagine how challenging it would be to keep track of all the people you meet online and in person, let alone matching faces/people with internet avatars, etc. Would be cool to do a rando interview with you sometime!
The thing with the Plan B split is that the choice in the techno-political direction is a negative one. It matters less where I'm getting, more what I'm running away from. In the case of Eric, it's not the genius of Trump's politics that draws him to him but the "insanity" of the other side. It reminds me a lot of the "tradcaths" online, spending less time getting into the church and the community and more being glad that they move away from dragqueen reading hours. I see a lot of people walking into the church with their heads pointed backwards towards the door at what they think they are leaving behind.
On a side note, it would be really great if you could talk to Rudyard Lynch (WhatIfAltHist). He’s got a lot of videos going right to the core of the current environment, from a Gen Z perspective. I think it would be very productive if he got involved with these discussions. Not sure if he’s ready for Peterson level, he’s still got some gaps in his framework, but he’s diving deep to find it. Also would like to see you talk again to Benjamin Boyce.
This is only the start You're only opening the book You're only on the first line of what's going to take a little while I hope you don't hold your breath because they revolt like a choir They say the language is dead, well, then why do we speak I hope you understand that my brain is fixed Into the next town This is only a revolt Enough is enough because we cannot be late Basically, you've been defined as ""unworthy of love"" And I confess, I had placed in my heart the same address but I paint with my words ""You're free, don't fear, this is just a revolt"" Into the next town This is only a revolt Calm rose: violent wind The only ""surrender"" tonight, shall not be our own They cannot escape, one if by land, two if by sea I saved my money, but it can't save me And maybe there is blood from the past, but that is not from me They can take away one man, and they can take away his mic But they cannot take us all No, they can't dig a hole the right size to fit all of our dreams They can't bury me, they can't bury me We can't hope that somebody else take our place No, we can't hope that somebody else take our place May the history book read of all of our names Be it blood, be it ink, but at least we were free This is only but a fraction of what I've got to say It must be said, it must be sad If I leave this earth tonight may it be said that I spoke my peace I spoke with the wrath of his grace Calm rose: come violent wind Oh we stand hand in hand and we walk without fear This is a revolution th-cam.com/video/3UO0YR-MBJI/w-d-xo.html
As a paranoid schizophrenic I sense a flavor of An apologetic to JV. Our technology has afforded us the capability of viewing content makers in different environments. It is true that some people apologize but don’t repent. Some repent. Repentance it seems is manifest in action ( faith/trust). “ God left him to see what was in his heart”- what you do and say about me while I’m not around could be manifested as the actions of apologies. Repentance it seems is manifested in erasing the very thought ( if you look in a woman…/ if you ridicule me in thought). Yet I do what I will not and do not what I will( renewing of the mind/training/practice makes perfect/ lift those weights-you can’t lift it 10 times if you can’t lift it once). And still understanding the physiology that is use/overuse resistance/hypersensitivity signal strength to receptor strength signaling layered in senescence/autophagy-apoptosis… resistance eventually is futile. You become a brittle diabetic by using insulin. Action + feeding + sleep You can get twice as good twice as fast if you run 15 minutes twice a day than 30 minutes once a day. Did I mention my psychopathy? I’m sure a banker thinks the same of me when I go to him as when he comes to the ED.
Pray - Repent - Act ... repeat. You can't do good deeds without repentance. You cannot repent without prayer. Prayer is one of the good deeds. This is transcendent bio-feedback. Two other prayers ... pray for gratitude and pray for presence.
Thanks Paul. What I appreciate about you and your channel is that it’s like a news channel done by a very insightful journalist who is dedicated to understanding the world/culture through a lens big enough to include very many of it’s most important aspects, who is also a Protestant pastor. I do however disagree with the anti-intellectual tone of your position. There seems to be some cognitive dissonance here. Praising the deep intellectual, theological conversations of Peterson, Pageau, Hall & Vervake etc. and then highlighting Chris Green’s ant-intellectual reflections, which I totally disagree with. Unless Green is talking about fundamentalist academics who in my estimation are very narrow minded and dogmatic. I have heard you express a similar sentiment many times. You speak about the person of simple faith “outperforming” the more sophisticated. Quite a broad brush there. Anyway, that’s why I like “meta-modernism”. It honors science and philosophy, takes them seriously, while at the same time pulling through the best of the Legacy Religions.
There is “anti-intellectual”, and then there is hyper-intellectual. Which is an exercise in going around and around in circles and never reaching a conclusion. Never helping anyone. And real people, in the real world, need real answers for real life. Paul knows that. Eggheads competing to prove who’s the smartest serves only them.
I'm still trying to sort out the implications of Moses being as real as Huck Finn. (Which you did not say, I should point out ) Having a Nancy sermon recap moment. Sorry. You said make a comment! T Grog telling me that was a minor eye opening experience. I'm wondering if he accepts the existence of Abraham. I wonder if he thinks that the new testament is something cooked up by Zondervan Publishing. A kind of omphalos I had not considered. We owe a lot to our confidence in Jewish scribes and copyists. But it's a miracle-sized expansion to think someone made it all up and then proceeded with the heavy lifting. You definitely don't see that kind of bureaucratic dedication at the DMV!
"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms. Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel And shining morning face, creeping like snail Unwillingly to school. And then the lover, Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier, Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel, Seeking the bubble reputation Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice, In fair round belly with good capon lined, With eyes severe and beard of formal cut, Full of wise saws and modern instances; And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts Into the lean and slippered pantaloon, With spectacles on nose and pouch on side; His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice, Turning again toward childish treble, pipes And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all, That ends this strange eventful history, Is second childishness and mere oblivion, Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything" - That Other William ;-) Is Moses real? Not important. As a fictional ad lib character in your own story ... are you real? Share with us your own story, oh Bard upon Avon ;-)) The actor behind your lines ... that is the true mystery.
Academics for the longest time I’ve lived in the world where they do so much engaging through text, that is the spirited breath. Although also part of that experiences the in person conferencing networking, but often so much that is biased towards existing relationship as opposed to actual engaging with each other content. But anyways, now technology has allowed, but synchronous and asynchronous, engaging of ideas, let alone when it becomes embodied in real life.
Hope it's okay to comment on the initial title without having listened through yet. Surely the answer to our woes is both intimate-relational and through an extended, less intimate relationality, techno-political - a solution which I think subsequently ought to involve Christians proposing write in candidates for the US presidential election.
Also, I would like to add that Techno-Political actually is very important. Paul, you said so yourself, that it is important. But the title of this video shoots down that acknowledgement. Reminds me of the classical conundrum of faith vs works. I follow the wisdom of the letter of James: Faith without Works is dead. Luther’s Reformation put a big dent in that wisdom. Apparently, he said James letter was “chaff”. Jesus taught that loving God and one’s neighbor is intimately wrapped up with how to live faithfully and actively in an oppressive economic, oligarchic, hierarchical culture. Forgive my debts, as I forgive my debtors. Sort of like today. Social Justice is the works half of the Gospel. It’s the Works half of Judaism, of the Prophets. Too bad the Billionaires and certain far right “intellectuals” are so successful at portraying Socialism as the boogeyman. Spiritualized Socialism is what I’m talking about.
Where did the music producers go to find talent? 11:24 was it not the communities which fostered these things? The churches? The social clubs? Before we decided to “uncover” pop idols artificially raise them in the voyeuristic self styled stardom of the Simon Cowell era.
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Thanks as always Paul. I would like to make something clear which I made explicit at the end of my discussion with Jonathan and Jordan This that the core of my concern was not my personal salvation. I understand that this issue frustrates some of your viewers. But that was not and should not be my main concern. My main concern was in addressing the meta-crisis and meaning crisis. For this there seem to be three options. The first is business as usual which does not seem like a good idea at all. The second is for all the Christian (or Buddhist etc) groups to unify and then convert the world. While the probability of this is not zero I think history provides good evidence that is very low. The third is to afford dialogos between faith/wisdom communities in the hope of affording a distributed cognition that can address our situation. While the probability of this is also low I believe given historical examples and what is happening right now ( what I call the advent of the sacred) it is a significant enough probability that we should consider it. Thank you again Paul for your kind and generous treatment of my work.
I hope to engage your conversation with Jonathan and Jordan further and I'll probably start at the end of it. I think that helps then frame what came before it. Thanks again John.
@@PaulVanderKlay Always my friend. If you want to talk with me let me know by email.
@@PaulVanderKlay I like to be an optimist but sadly the majority of people aren't going to go on a spiritual journey in life. Trying to keep positive here, but keeping the bunker stocked with shotguns and canned food just in case!
As with anything you guys have been doing in this community engagement, which I've been following and I consider myself part of by participating in your dialogos (I'm grateful to all of you for this), I need to ask you to define what is your "personal salvation." Sometimes the religious language, besides being a turn-off, it's easy to be taken out of context, and used for psychological abuse of those who may themselves dealing with a crisis of meaning.
@@johnvervaeke2589 Dear John, hello. I agree regarding the helpfulness and am encouraged by loving conversation that seeks to edify. I get the impression that edification is implicit in dialogos. I'm sorry I still haven't watched most of the above video yet. I think the responsible human body, the human individual, has a responsibility to learn to heal in general, which involves helping each other to heal and that we are called to help edify a flourishing community that bio-logically stewards the ecosystem that includes the responsible human body. I think we are called to an international (and national) cosmopolitanism that is rooted in family and local community. The responsibility to learn results in the need for discussion, a vote to be considered. I am a Christian who has stayed overnight in a Tibetan Buddhist monastery; I was more learning than discussing in the monastery and I'm not sure if it was spirituality okay for me to stay there. I noticed Genie like paintings on the wall of their temple and asked a monk to explain them. He said they were depicting beings that appeared to monks as they meditated. There were also two small stone huts outside the temple and inside one a person had been isolating/meditating for three months (before covid existed), and meals were given through a slit in the door. As far as I can tell, the Christian trajectory of resurrection aims at the continual flourishing of the responsible human body in and for community. As far as I can remember, the Tibetan Buddhist goal was to escape our human responsibility. I'm not saying it's wrong to spend time on our own; but it is evidently wrong for a person to walk away from our responsibility. There was, as far as I can tell, an irony in that people had gathered together to help each other escape their human responsibility. As far as I can tell, it would be a massive presumption to imagine that we have some non-human or more than human responsibility to heal a supposed rift from a wider unity through meditated chanting. I suspect that the Logos would prefer it if the person trying to escape their human responsibility put themselves forward as a candidate in the US presidential election. I think that would be the logical (loving) thing to do that would cohere with the human responsibility to learn to heal. I've had a next door neighbour who was another kind of Buddhist who was apparently expressing love rather than trying to escape love, another told me that relational love, whilst not being their ultimate future goal was appropriate for this lifetime; as edifying love is appropriate for this lifetime I think that that fact implies a relational attitude between a creator and the created, the created for whom logical love is logical with respect to responsibility. I think we have good reason to seek and love the Holy Spirit and to disagree with and I think stay clear of any spirit who distracts us from our bio-logical responsibility to learn to bio-logically steward that we know exists; I think we should stay clear of any spirit who doesn't acknowledge Jesus (who is evidently the Logos made flesh) as the Lord they want to logically respect and serve. You have God and His Church at your service. God bless
I've been on my spiritual journey fairly much alone. A married and my wife and I agree. So it's basically us. But I've been longing for others, particularly men, to come beside me for us to work together. But it almost never works.
I had never heard of communion of the saints before. But I genuinely think that may be my heart's deepest aspiration
Some of the smartest, most well read people I’ve met returned to a simple faith. You can’t unravel an infinite puzzle and have to submit to it or struggle forever through purgatory (figuratively, but sorta literally).
That was my conscious choice. No meta-modernity for me. Or maybe I always have been simple ;-)
I think their mappings (Vervaeke, Pageau, Jordan Hall) are very precise, especially. It allows one to find those subtle "devil in the details"
It would be interesting to hear you talk about the struggle of a healthy community within the family based on modernities economic situations regarding the youth. Another way of saying this is I see families living together longer. I have older kids that are living with me trying to save up to buy a house.
Hi Paul,
I think the answer to our culture must be techno political as well as psycho spiritual.
Techno political is the top down aspect. Fix it at the top. New decrees, policies, theory.
Psycho spiritual is the bottom up aspect. Fix it at the individual level with people becoming good in their personal lives
I think to say the answer is ONLY relational is not recognizing the power of the Angelic over the Demonic.
What do you think?
Seems to be what is happening. 👍❤
Another description of sophisticated is mentioned about the 16 min mark "they've got a lot of stuff in their head " it's debatable whether or not that's a good or a bad thing, especially when the modern world has a never ending fountain of "knowledge" and ideas......... can that be dangerous for the lay person....... how do you manage that, not be overwhelmed, become addicted too... etc ? Estuary and TLC are certainly a good outlet ....... but "What Should We Do?" ⚔ and "What Should We Not Do? " 🛡 🙏🙏🙏
Mark L, in his recent monologue, made a keen observation by linking the rising fascination with the divine feminine to the nurturing comfort of a mother. This connection brings to mind a phenomenon I encountered during my research on cults, known as abdication syndrome. It's where there is this unconscious desire of some people to return to a state of early childhood, when their parents controlled their lives and protected them from the world. They’re trying to rekindle that childhood state of total trust and lack of responsibility. For them, the goal is to find a sanctuary where they don’t feel insecure, incomplete, or confused anymore. They can just bask in the unconditional love and protection of the group, as they used to with their parents. It is, after all, the mother who instills that foundational sense of security and nurturing care in our formative years. The issue is that when you lend your agency to a group, you leave yourself open and susceptible to subtle influences that surround you, like Hermes.
Cognitive overload, characterized by constant overthinking and analysis, can leave people particularly vulnerable. When you disconnect from your own feelings and constantly look outward, you become susceptible to the principalities and powers that are all around you i.e , excercise one spirit only to have 7 take it's place. While this approach might offer a brief escape from suffering and a false sense of control, it often worsens the underlying problems. It’s similar to the pattern seen in boulimia: you overconsume information, then feel the need to purge out of guilt. This creates a vicious cycle that can be hard to break free from.
Perhaps cogntive overload has always been the telos of the internet, a notion that its creators were oblivious to. In the past, I dismissed the fundamentalists of the late 90s and early 2000s as eccentric and paranoid for claiming that "www" represented 666. However, as time goes on, I find myself reconsidering their perspective and questioning whether they were onto something.
There are some good comments about how the techno-political is still relevant, whether necessarily or as a mere matter of fact. This reminds me of one of the points in the JP/JV discussion, touching on emergence from below and emanation from above (in Matthieu Pageau's terms, an expressing/informing or founding/establishing dynamic). I wonder if relational and techno-political systems have an expressing/informing dynamic. Relationships create a sort of potential, and explicit systems inform and give purpose to that potential. If so, then we have an argument for the necessity of the techno-political, and the next question seems to be, how do we manage it? My answer lately is "don't try" (good fit with "the end of strategy") - it’s not actually the right question! My current question is how to relate to such things given that “management” and “control” are presumptuous errors.
Best answer I have is don’t grasp, but surrender, pray, see what God does. (Seems like PVK’s strategy with relation to TLC.) This is not satisfying - probably because for me this is still much more propositional than participatory.
I tried to listen to the podcast of these three and could not follow at all so clicked out.
This is why we want to move back towards God
”We live in a world where trust is gone.
Our reality in which we dwell misses the mark.
We seek for grounding, but all we find is shifting sand.
Our eyes look for land but all we see is the sea.
We hear of war, strife, and desensitize with more chaos to come.
Our ears preserve the noise of our day with more babble for days and days.
In all this...
I will listen for your voice, O Lord.
My ears will strain to perceive your word, O Lord.
I will seek your face, O Lord.
My eyes will see your truth and desire your beauty, O Lord.
I will live in your truth, O Lord.
For in you, O Lord, I live, move, and breathe; let your reality be what I trust and where I find my rest.”
Wonderfull.
You have the wrong Weinstein in Game B. IDW and Game B were always very different.
In Yarvin's Cathedral, he believes that the current structure of the power that governs us is a network between the academy, the media, and the civil service. Starting with GamerGate, a competing media network formed because of the obvious falseness of the legacy media. The IDW grew from academics who found themselves dissident to the academy. Although the IDW collapsed, there's still a growing active network of academics doing scholarship on the internet. I would surmise that Eric Prince getting involved in politics, and Thiel making public appearances, is a sign that a competing civil network will form. It seems there are pillars of a parallel Cathedral forming. The new organs are qualitatively different by being more ethereal networks, than established institutions. How can these siloed archipelagos strengthen each other like how Yarvin's Cathedral is self supporting? I agree the solution is relational, but the relations between giants matter too and that means technology and politics.
Excellent comment. Thank you.
Yarvin and Thiel are both capitalists complaining about liberalism, with about as much coherence as that sentence implies. What is the actual end of their battle with woke and establishment liberalism? They refuse to say that, mostly because they appear to both want to destroy the liberal nation state, yet also just have the same general politics as Ted Cruz depending on the day.
Now THERE is someone we need to bring to the TLC: Curtis Yarvin!
I enjoyed his convo with Gornoski. He got him talking on more religious subjects than he usually does
I didn't stop to think how beautiful the Peterson and Vervaeke conversation was, thank you for pointing this out :). Although I was disappointed I couldn't watch their full convo, as part of it was behind a paywall on Daily Wire
First? Woot! I enjoyed the three of them together too.
I so wish Christians were Messianists.
RELATIONALITY RULES
😂
My wish is that Chris Green and Jonathan Pageau would have a conversation about Eschatology. May sound random, but there are some interesting parallels I’m seeing that also showed up in conversations Dr. Green at Northwesturary 2024
C.S.Lewis made the analogy of society being like a ship and unity is essential if one is trying to steer a community in a certain direction.
Clever guys like Bret Weinstein are so befuddled when it comes to problems like this but if he just got involved with a church like Jordan Hall did i think so much would become clear!
Important people are deluded by their own importance. This world is a Ship Of Fools, and the crew and captain of the moment are pirates. But not as funny as Captain Jack Sparrow ;-)
You could have just titled this “The ontological foundation of personalist knowing”.
I could have, but then I'd be you. :)
We have one of you and one of me. It's better that way. Two of me or two of you would just be too much. :)
@@PaulVanderKlay 😝😎🤗
@@WhiteStoneName Luke is part of Everything Everywhere All At Once ... as Everyman, there can't be more than one of you ;-)
@@williambranch4283 Luke's relational role in TLC often is that, yes 👍🙏❤
I notice a difference I find important to say, between "Luke is" vs. "Luke's (relational) role is". ❤️
Identity vs. role in a relationship 🙏
The more research I do and the deeper I go spiritually, the more I'm convinced Christianity is the answer.
If Jesus calls, listen and follow. Scared? Come and see - Shoeless Joe Jackson.
paul, is there an onramp for getting involved in TLC or esturary groups? i've been listening to your channel for a while now, but i am unsure.
The "onramp" has been a big question for a long time. We haven't figured out how to build it.
@@PaulVanderKlay so if i wanted to set up estuary or refer someone to estuary, what should i do?
@airanderal Where abouts are you? There's a discord server that could connect you with some that get together for an estuary. Here in Leipzig, Germany, we will have our first next weekend. A contact from a meet up in Landau two years ago sparked it.
I became a Christian in 2021 because it's true.
Where is Jordan Hall's CV published. I have been unable to confirm that he went to HLS in the 1990s.
I didn't deconstruct, in spite of problems, 38 years of church so far. I was domicided by the struggles of family and community ... and cut adrift from my support network by death, retirement and lockdown. TLC has helped me these last two years, until a new religious community happened along. But now it is a part of my daily habits, just as my weekly church activity is.
I’m of two minds with a video like this. I agree that the techno-political is not our solution, but I also can’t quite separate the the political from “religio” in this sort of secular vs sacred dichotomy
Religion is about community and so is politics. But it seems the political community is sick. Can you nurse the political community back to health? Are you well enough yourself or do you need the care of a religious community yourself?
Paul, as I listened to this video, I noticed that John Eldridge’s Wild at Heart podcast episode was on the right side as a recommendation. On the thumbnail? “It’s relationship that’s the cause of your wounding. And your healing.” A coincidence? I think not.
Eldredge gets some flak for his first book. And I'm reading it for the first time, finding that most of the flak is deserved. But the heart of the book and the focus of much of Eldredge's work in the past 10 years (book was published 20 years ago) is radical relational community in a re-enchanted world. There's a lot to like about that thesis and ethos.
When you first brought out the comparison between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant you had poetry and music for the Protestants. What has changed that now the focus is on preaching?
Did anyone ever explain why Jordan Greenhall became Jordan Hall? I don't see all the videos, so if he told that story at one point I missed it. Also, if you Google Jordan Hall you get to read about a building in Boston.
He said in a video (I cant recall which one a few years ago) his first wife's last name was Green, his was Hall and combined them. They got divorced and when he married his 2nd wife he dropped the Green from Greenhall.
@@K-A5 Thank you.
wow Paul, this is sooo good
Amen to that. The problem being, relationality is harder to monetize ;-) The thought that little you will change big society, is pushing a rope. Simply be your best self and leave the rest to G-d.
In-person conversations and spending time with people-just walking and eating together-seem to help counteract the tendency towards fruitless, disembodied cognition.
I suspect that if Brett and Heather Weinstein ever find their way into faith, it will be Heather leading the way. It’s a generalisation, but women seem to be less prone to mind-body disconnection than men, perhaps for obvious biological reasons.
how does the mind body connection or lack thereof lead to faith or lack thereof?
That is what worked for me. It may work for Jordan Peterson too.
@@buglepong Left vs Right brained meme. The Right-brain is more body connected. The Left-brain is a cerebrum in a jar.
@@williambranch4283 so the delusional side has the faith?
@@buglepong If you aren't a fool, why are you here? I mean that in the best possible way. Be all the fool G-d calls you to be.
Jesus Seminar was fun, back in the day when "historical" Jesus was worth pursuing. The "words of Jesus" is different from the "acts of Jesus". They did much better with the "words of Jesus" It takes the knitting together of both, to make a Gospel. That is why Thomas is not a Gospel ... but a Gnostic list of profound koans.
I feel like all these threads pulled together are leading to something more and more interesting? ….what I do not know but I love it.
G-d doesn't ask you to know the future, G-d asks you to trust.
I understand your point of view, but I am weary of Vervaeke. I rarely listen to him anymore, aside from this latest couple of videos. And the real reason is that he is not being honest. You cannot have “dialogos” when someone’s mind is utterly closed. And he has made it clear that his is, relentlessly. So what’s left? Him pushing his warmed-over Boomer New-Ageism, which is not remotely compelling. And him continually bobbing and weaving, presenting what he clearly believes is his profound intellect, all in the service of refusing the answer to all of his lengthy speechifying. Meanwhile, the world continues to disintegrate. The problems he acknowledges get worse. People are literally dying, from drugs and otherwise. Luckily, everything does not depend on John Vervaeke accepting Christ. But at this point, when you have many atheists acknowledging the necessity of Christianity, and in some cases actually converting, Vervaeke’s continued defiant pursuit of syncretism and Eastern mysticism is not contributing anything. Richard Dawkins is now arguably more sympathetic to Christianity than Vervaeke is.
To put it simply, Christianity is the foundation of Western Civilization, and it is the only answer to “the meaning crisis”, and Vervaeke will let the world burn rather than accept it, because he hates his parents. Which could be a summary of the entire Baby Boom generation. He has made that clear. He does not contribute anything useful to these conversations, he just bangs on relentlessly about his personal obsessions, and retreats to his “childhood trauma”, which is frankly less severe than many have experienced, despite being an aging man with enough education to overcome it and see things more clearly. He knows that version of Christianity he was raised with was not common, much less the only way, but he still rejects all of it on those grounds. As I said, I do not believe he’s being honest. I think he has other motives, and that’s his excuse. As such, I think his only real motive for participating in these discussions is attention, and these are the only people who will give it to him. That’s the only conclusion that I can reach about him. He is boring precisely because he shuts the door. What’s left to talk about when you have made your position clear, as he has, over and over again? I don’t look forward to his participation in Peterson’s gospel seminar.
That doesn’t mean there’s no hope for him, and things might not change. But when it comes to the conversation he’s trying to participate in, about society as a whole, he’s not contributing anything useful.
I hope to do some deeper dives into John's convo with Jonathan and Jordan Hall. It's interesting watching how this is evolving.
@@PaulVanderKlay Jordan Hall is very interesting. I think my impatience with these discussions is that however much anyone, including Jordan Peterson, attempts to contextualize Christianity within the modernist/materialist frame, at the end of the day, the deciding factor, as you know, is faith. John 3:16. So if salvation literally hinges on believing what you cannot see, and people are determined to avoid it, it is all ultimately futile. All the efforts of Peterson, Holland, etc. can walk them and others up to the door, but if they won’t go through it, it was for nothing. “Cultural Christianity” or “civilizational Christianity” is not enough to save the West. And that’s the line that all of this refuses to cross.
The other thing that is usually studiously avoided is the topic of sin. The reality of sin, and the need for forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ, taking the punishment for us on the cross, is the entire point of Christianity. “Without faith, it is impossible to please God”. So people can talk around it in circles endlessly, but if they’re not willing to believe what they can’t see, what hasn’t been proven to them scientifically, it doesn’t matter.
In Vervaeke’s case, he continually, emphatically, states over and over in every conversation that he will never believe. And his continual hand-waving show of being open to discussion, and “not wanting to offend” Christians, is really an admission of his actual position, which is hostility. He’s fighting for his own philosophy, and against Christianity. While God will have patience for him, in the context of discussions about solving the ills of society, he contributes nothing. Except a whole lot of wind.
I guess I am still undecided about whether “cultural Christianity” is better than nothing. It is at least an opening. But I know it isn’t enough. And the real thing is not really being discussed in any of this, except for people like Hall who have actually gone through the door.
At some point, is the discussion actually keeping people from faith? If that subject is never even breached? The fallen state of man, the need for redemption, the hand of God (and Satan) in the history of the world, all of these foundational elements of the Christian world view, are mostly off limits. The assumption, spoken or not, is that the Bible is a book of literature written by humans, which perhaps contains wisdom, but is ultimately fiction. And “science” (or academic fields that pretend to be science) is holy writ, and is untouchable. That is the premise that almost all of these discussions start with.
I disagree with your perception of dishonesty. I find John to be a very honest interlocutor and a very exciting thinker. A clearly influential voice in this whole conversation, which is undoubtedly bringing many people closer to God.
What you see as dishonesty I see as the Holy Spirit (and the Logos 😅) working overtime within his soul. And I see him squirming, of course. But I don't see that the squirming has done much progress in the way of shaking off and closing the door to the Holy Spirit.
Politicians don't do any good. They are manipulators and play with legislation and goverance to present an ideological image.
I wish there was another name other than politician for those who try to participate in the process of governance for the actual betterment and balance of the community they represent, be it at the local, state, or national level. Maybe they just need to be called representatives--leave the term politician as a moniker for those who like to play political games
Good stuff, Paul. Your work has definitely not been in vain. This is my first comment after watching many videos starting earlier this year and then attending the Olympia conference. I met up with another rando attendee yesterday who lives in my area and we're hoping to start an estuary group soon. Was great meeting you at the conference...I would have never guessed I'd be playing a shoulder touching game outside on the lawn of a CRC church in Olympia with PVK!
Thanks for noting this. It's often hard for me to see through the gmail handles and touch the person. I enjoyed hearing some of your story and playing with you in Olympia! :)
@PaulVanderKlay I can only imagine how challenging it would be to keep track of all the people you meet online and in person, let alone matching faces/people with internet avatars, etc. Would be cool to do a rando interview with you sometime!
The thing with the Plan B split is that the choice in the techno-political direction is a negative one. It matters less where I'm getting, more what I'm running away from. In the case of Eric, it's not the genius of Trump's politics that draws him to him but the "insanity" of the other side. It reminds me a lot of the "tradcaths" online, spending less time getting into the church and the community and more being glad that they move away from dragqueen reading hours. I see a lot of people walking into the church with their heads pointed backwards towards the door at what they think they are leaving behind.
Bring them in, anyway you can. But the positive is healthy, the negative is not. Pray for gratitude, presence and repentance.
On a side note, it would be really great if you could talk to Rudyard Lynch (WhatIfAltHist). He’s got a lot of videos going right to the core of the current environment, from a Gen Z perspective. I think it would be very productive if he got involved with these discussions. Not sure if he’s ready for Peterson level, he’s still got some gaps in his framework, but he’s diving deep to find it.
Also would like to see you talk again to Benjamin Boyce.
Just a pop version of O.Spengler. Apostolic Majesty is much better and professional as he is a trained historian with an obsession with details
@@fegeleindux3471 Put another way, Rudyard is an intelligent member of Jordan Peterson’s target audience.
This is only the start
You're only opening the book
You're only on the first line of what's going to take a little while
I hope you don't hold your breath because they revolt like a choir
They say the language is dead, well, then why do we speak
I hope you understand that my brain is fixed
Into the next town
This is only a revolt
Enough is enough because we cannot be late
Basically, you've been defined as ""unworthy of love""
And I confess, I had placed in my heart the same address but I paint with my words
""You're free, don't fear, this is just a revolt""
Into the next town
This is only a revolt
Calm rose: violent wind
The only ""surrender"" tonight, shall not be our own
They cannot escape, one if by land, two if by sea
I saved my money, but it can't save me
And maybe there is blood from the past, but that is not from me
They can take away one man, and they can take away his mic
But they cannot take us all
No, they can't dig a hole the right size to fit all of our dreams
They can't bury me, they can't bury me
We can't hope that somebody else take our place
No, we can't hope that somebody else take our place
May the history book read of all of our names
Be it blood, be it ink, but at least we were free
This is only but a fraction of what I've got to say
It must be said, it must be sad
If I leave this earth tonight may it be said that I spoke my peace
I spoke with the wrath of his grace
Calm rose: come violent wind
Oh we stand hand in hand and we walk without fear
This is a revolution
th-cam.com/video/3UO0YR-MBJI/w-d-xo.html
As a paranoid schizophrenic I sense a flavor of An apologetic to JV.
Our technology has afforded us the capability of viewing content makers in different environments.
It is true that some people apologize but don’t repent. Some repent. Repentance it seems is manifest in action ( faith/trust). “ God left him to see what was in his heart”- what you do and say about me while I’m not around could be manifested as the actions of apologies. Repentance it seems is manifested in erasing the very thought ( if you look in a woman…/ if you ridicule me in thought). Yet I do what I will not and do not what I will( renewing of the mind/training/practice makes perfect/ lift those weights-you can’t lift it 10 times if you can’t lift it once). And still understanding the physiology that is use/overuse resistance/hypersensitivity signal strength to receptor strength signaling layered in senescence/autophagy-apoptosis… resistance eventually is futile. You become a brittle diabetic by using insulin.
Action + feeding + sleep
You can get twice as good twice as fast if you run 15 minutes twice a day than 30 minutes once a day.
Did I mention my psychopathy?
I’m sure a banker thinks the same of me when I go to him as when he comes to the ED.
Pray - Repent - Act ... repeat. You can't do good deeds without repentance. You cannot repent without prayer. Prayer is one of the good deeds. This is transcendent bio-feedback. Two other prayers ... pray for gratitude and pray for presence.
Thanks Paul. What I appreciate about you and your channel is that it’s like a news channel done by a very insightful journalist who is dedicated to understanding the world/culture through a lens big enough to include very many of it’s most important aspects, who is also a Protestant pastor.
I do however disagree with the anti-intellectual tone of your position. There seems to be some cognitive dissonance here. Praising the deep intellectual, theological conversations of Peterson, Pageau, Hall & Vervake etc. and then highlighting Chris Green’s ant-intellectual reflections, which I totally disagree with. Unless Green is talking about fundamentalist academics who in my estimation are very narrow minded and dogmatic.
I have heard you express a similar sentiment many times. You speak about the person of simple faith “outperforming” the more sophisticated. Quite a broad brush there.
Anyway, that’s why I like “meta-modernism”. It honors science and philosophy, takes them seriously, while at the same time pulling through the best of the Legacy Religions.
There is “anti-intellectual”, and then there is hyper-intellectual. Which is an exercise in going around and around in circles and never reaching a conclusion. Never helping anyone. And real people, in the real world, need real answers for real life. Paul knows that. Eggheads competing to prove who’s the smartest serves only them.
Thanks for your comment Richard. The "meta-modern" tag is an interesting one and I think still evolving. Hang around and keep commenting. Thanks.
I'm still trying to sort out the implications of Moses being as real as Huck Finn. (Which you did not say, I should point out ) Having a Nancy sermon recap moment. Sorry. You said make a comment!
T Grog telling me that was a minor eye opening experience. I'm wondering if he accepts the existence of Abraham. I wonder if he thinks that the new testament is something cooked up by Zondervan Publishing. A kind of omphalos I had not considered. We owe a lot to our confidence in Jewish scribes and copyists. But it's a miracle-sized expansion to think someone made it all up and then proceeded with the heavy lifting. You definitely don't see that kind of bureaucratic dedication at the DMV!
@tgrogan6049 letting you know I was thinking/talking about you over here.
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything" - That Other William ;-)
Is Moses real? Not important. As a fictional ad lib character in your own story ... are you real? Share with us your own story, oh Bard upon Avon ;-)) The actor behind your lines ... that is the true mystery.
Academics for the longest time I’ve lived in the world where they do so much engaging through text, that is the spirited breath. Although also part of that experiences the in person conferencing networking, but often so much that is biased towards existing relationship as opposed to actual engaging with each other content. But anyways, now technology has allowed, but synchronous and asynchronous, engaging of ideas, let alone when it becomes embodied in real life.
Wisdom is transcended and binds what is true BECAUSE the is ONE God.
Hope it's okay to comment on the initial title without having listened through yet. Surely the answer to our woes is both intimate-relational and through an extended, less intimate relationality, techno-political - a solution which I think subsequently ought to involve Christians proposing write in candidates for the US presidential election.
Good luck with that ;-)
How it started. Vervaeke JBP psychedelic
How it’s going
Your eyes look like they're disappointed with your face
PVK does work too hard.
Someone make TLC hallmark cards!
Also, I would like to add that Techno-Political actually is very important. Paul, you said so yourself, that it is important. But the title of this video shoots down that acknowledgement. Reminds me of the classical conundrum of faith vs works. I follow the wisdom of the letter of James: Faith without Works is dead. Luther’s Reformation put a big dent in that wisdom. Apparently, he said James letter was “chaff”. Jesus taught that loving God and one’s neighbor is intimately wrapped up with how to live faithfully and actively in an oppressive economic, oligarchic, hierarchical culture. Forgive my debts, as I forgive my debtors. Sort of like today. Social Justice is the works half of the Gospel. It’s the Works half of Judaism, of the Prophets. Too bad the Billionaires and certain far right “intellectuals” are so successful at portraying Socialism as the boogeyman. Spiritualized Socialism is what I’m talking about.
15:10 love this Chris green clip. I clipped it for my channel too.
Glad you think this is important.
Where did the music producers go to find talent? 11:24 was it not the communities which fostered these things? The churches? The social clubs? Before we decided to “uncover” pop idols artificially raise them in the voyeuristic self styled stardom of the Simon Cowell era.
1:25 - great visual of the Russian nesting doll PVK
We are the product in the flesh of a deep nest of Babushkas (grandmother in Russian).
32:27 Pastor Paul, John's eye glasses look fogged like Christine Blasey Ford.
3:46 wouldn't it be great if this guy wouldn't interrupt the video with his commentary all the time!!!
😆