This is how it should be, cut the BS and just put facts in front of the managers so they can answer - you can tell Dulux are regretting trying to fob Skillbuilder and James off with a free Hat and generic email replys.. oh how wrong they were hoping it would just go away.
They said nothing to justify the cost difference between trade and domestic. The ingredients do not cost £90 more for trade, so why are they charging £90 more. If the ingredients were £10 more per tub then that's a justifiable price increase.
@@stevemcguin1871 But they know 2 things: 1. The painter will value the time saved by only having to do less coats. 2. The price of the paint will be passed on to the customer anyway. Dulux win and the painter wins because he can do more jobs in a month.
Absolutely ripping off tradesman. Simple as that. Big collar was an absolute business man, has no idea what the paint does. I still don't know why it is so much more expensive.
Charging more for a trade product because it saves you time to apply does not justify charging the customer more if the ingredients cost are not significantly different
Material costs are barely what you are paying for. Go and buy a ball bearing that's made to go in a washing machine, then go and buy one that's made for Aerospace. Both will be made with the same materials, but one is made to much much higher standards and is much more consistent from batch to batch.
They all have verbal diarrhoea. A plethora of words and variables and plenty of room for excuses. If it fails to meet expectations they will have a prepared spiel to explain how it’s all the painters fault.
Or how Matt just glossed over the issues... I saw a pic of him before , he seems to have lost weight... he's thinner... but he needs to brush up on his PR skills. 😎👍☘🍺
Exactly my thoughts. He says don’t stir the normal. Never known that. He says the normal needs another coat over trade. Surely one extra coat doesn’t cost the £100 in extra time over the trade. Crazy.
@@danielcoward3469 Only applies to trades. Zero cost at home. Most painters use a 12”+ roller. An extra coat of the cheap doesn’t take them long. Your still getting a quality finish with the non trade. It’s a madness at the prices.
But due to the online prowess of these episodes, it will al be very well rehearsed. I know, as I come from an advertising background and have been involved in ‘brand exercises’. There’s a reason I have my own P&D business - because I don’t agree with the fake and the lies in order to extract your money.
The fact you don’t need to hire scaffold for as long doesn’t mean they can up their profit margin!The difference in price should only be down to the ingredients and they didn’t really explain that in any detail
They are sold at the price people will pay. If everyone abandoned Dulux and switched to Johnstones or whatever (which is cheaper anyway) they'd start rethinking their pricing. But nobody will...
I'm still confused about the massive price hike. For instance, 5l of coloured weathershield at Homebase ( other DIY stores available ) is £30.. The paint Shed ( other online stores available ) Will mix you any colour Trade Weathershield for £44.33 inc VAT.. So, does the problem lie with the Dulux Trade centre that sold the paint. The Dulux guy did a lot to try and justify the huge differnce in price when it's obviously clearly possible to buy the Trade version for an extra £15 which is what James thought at the start of the saga...
Bang on, the issue here doesn't seem to be the general price of Dulux Trade Weathershield, but the fact that particular decorator centre sold it to him for an exorbitant amount. Was it a pricing error?? I have to say, I'm not a tradey, just a casual DIYer but even I can work out the difference between retail and trade paint and know ones more expensive than the other!
I think Roger you conducted yourself well, clear questioning, accepting answers but pushing for further information if required. Fair play fellas and keep this type of product comparison up, you have the clout and the backing from your subs, all to aid everybody from customers, trades and just the interested 3 rd party.
I respect that dulex and Alistair invited you up. They haven't covered themselves in glory before this but at least they're trying to be transparent. Still difficult to understand how a tin of mixed paint can cost £110 especially when that's charged against their most important customers but hey ho!
Even the experts use the word "coverage" wrong. Coverage is measured in m2, and is used to calculate the area a specific amount of paint will cover. What he should be saying is opacity, which relates to the hiding power, an how well it hides the stuff beneath.
Well same thing sure by coverage they're referring to 100 percent opacity over a given area. One will give you more area i.e. coverage for 100 percent opacity than the other.
8:00 so basically Deluxe are saying "We make it expensive as we assume you're just pass it on to the customer in your end bill. You'll be able to do the job quicker but you'll have to charge the customer more because we sell the trade paint for more. We can't even claim its cause of R&D costs because surely after a year or so of the sales, its covered the cost of R&D"
@@amac1657 They could argue "We're not just covering the costs of R&D, we're making you fund future R&D that will mainly benefit us in profit, but also does benefit you in productivity". However all that was ruined when yet another paint pot was discovered at the end :) Still was decent of them to offer to do this. Most would of just ignored you. And they appeared honest enough. Even if the apology was fine, I'd hate to think they then berated the store where the question was bought up, as it still sounded like the answer originally came from head office yet head office appeared to original tell the store to apologise.
Thanks for doing that, incredibly patronising the way Dulux treat their retail customers, helps make it easy for those of use that know how to paint (but don't paint every day) to choose our paint supplier in future.
1) Could James tells the difference between the two during painting? 2) Can the client tell the difference in the finish? If NO and NO then they are taking you for a ride.
The client can tell the difference in money... you have to pay a painter for 1/3 extra time!.. And that's taking in only the fact that have do another coat, let alone the extra in applying the coats due to the paint being harder to work with.
@@Robert-cu9bm But if James done none of those things then your point is mute. I haven't heard that James had trouble with the retail paint or gave it an extra coat. Besides he was painting pebble dash not the ceiling on the Sistine chapel.
It was all done in two coats using both paints. And fortunately we were told (as you would’ve seen in the video) that there would be no difference in the colour fading or durability.
@@jimichip I didn't understand that to be the case James. She wasn't very clear and did a poor job explaining in my opinion. Her answer was poor because she couldn't comment on the performance over 10 years of the job you specifically did, as she couldn't guarantee you hadn't painted different sides of the house for example with the different paints or that you hadn't painted them with different air temperature when applied. Her comment was that in Lab conditions, i.e. painted on exactly the same walls with exactly the same conditions, the trade WILL have better colour-fastness, alkali resistance, and adhesion over that 10 year period. I think they had a difficult job of walking the line in this video, as they can't be seen to be shitting on the consumer paint range to make the difference more clear between the trade. I'm also surprised that they didn't comment on whether they make the trade to higher standards to ensure that the colour matching is closer between different batches and if it is more consistent in general.
The Mrs thought it was "like watching paint dry". I thought it was a great piece. Top job Rog and James. And fair play to AkzoNobel - good response: not perfect, but as open as we could expect them to be I think. Keep doing what you do Skill Builder!
Great product journalism Roger, you're like a dog with a bone, asking intuitive questions. Very informative on technique for application, the Dulux brand did very well playing ball. Roger this shows the respect your opinion has, well done buddy.
@@Doyle-E The scaff costs become the tradies if the delay the scaff coming down. Then the extra cost of the trade paint are miniscule to the costs of delay clauses in contracts.
As some one who has completed multiple apprenticeships including nvq diploma level 2 and 3 in painting and decorating I can confirm a lot of bamf was used as a smoke screen in this video. Yes trade is better then retail but generally you will find your self putting on two coats of either regardless.
I heard the word “slightly..” a lot from the people at Dulux, fair enough I get some products may be “better” than others but the difference in price is astonishing and they chose their words very carefully just like a politician
Always haggle in builders merchants. A couple of nudges on the tippy tappy and they’ll get your over inflated prices down. You won’t have any luck in b&q and the like, and the B&Q trade card is a con as you won’t know what you get a discount on until you get to the till to which point you just want to pay and go; if you do get a discount it’s Small. To be fair though b&q aggregates is fairly priced.
The amount of money tradesman spend should give them a good discount, just as dulux say bulk buying of ingredients makes products cheaper, but that only seems to apply to retail customers. Brand loyalty means nothing to big companies. "Trade only" means nothing, If a member of the public walks into any store they can get the same price for a one off purchase as a loyal trade customer. Howdens joinery is a prime example of this.
Slashley gibbins, always use b and q trade on line and get it delivered, I sit down and do a big order for the week, had some amazing discounts recently compared to my local trade only paint store.
5 half decent decorators could. But it's a bit more technical than just dipping a roller into the tub and throwing it at a wall. Should be able to pass a blind test just by finding the volume solids
@@Lloyd1885Have the paint already in the trays then, using manufacturers guidance on mixing etc. Load up all the rollers in exactly the same way and then get the painter to start the blind test from there.
I’m a decorator I use dulux trade paint regularly and have used the retail versions. There is a big price difference but I can vouch for the trade it’s worth every penny On a dark base colour you have to give it more coats with the retail I love watching your videos guys keep it up
Watched it now, cheers for pointing me to this one... 👍 Having used both retail and trade dulux emulsion, I'd agree there is a difference, but not enough to always justify the price. During shortgages during lockdown, I had no choice but to use dulux retail, and I can honestly say, if I didnt know it was retail, I wouldn't have guessed...
I have real difficulty selling Dulux Trade Paint to customers when Dulux have made their mixed Heritage paint available in Trade ONLY. In a small way it’s holding those who want Heritage colours to hostage. I’ve been selling paint for 20 years and I’ve been massively critical of Dulux for the last 4 years. I encourage customers to try Crown, an own brand like our own. Just explore. I’ve enjoyed the exposure this has brought but I may bring this vid to our Dulux Rep’s attention.
The one thing I definitely wanted to see was the customer service issue being fixed, and it’s nice to see that they have now implemented a policy of stating the cost of a mixed paint upfront.
There should be a standard for opacity like there is a British Standard for colour..paints should be graded, its something I suggested to the PDA once, never heard back from them though.
@@robthesamplist some johnstones trade products are better but a lot of dulux trade products are better especially the oil based gloss and satinwood used on interiors johnstones gloss - satin will yellow much faster than dulux crown trade gloss and satin will stay white a lot longer too johnstones hybrid paints yellow faster too
Brilliant video guys. Good curve ball at the end with the ultimate protection. What I took from this is that whilst the trade paint is a better paint, and takes less labur to get a good finish, thus savings on final customer price, it seems dulux want to take advantage of this by charging a considerable amount more which is then passed on to the customer. I still dont understand the huge price hike in the trade paint.
Basically they've realised that the cost of paint is such a small component in the cost of a decorating job that they've been able to slowly ratchet the price of the trade up over the years until the point we're at now which is obviously ridiculous. Well done for bringing up the point because it's something they would just keep increasing otherwise. If they could make a proper gloss that didn't yellow then I'm sure everyone would happily pay 5 times the cost. But on the emulsion the extra cost is impossible to justify, as they just proved in all their interviews
Nice one Roger taking no prisoners 👌🏼. What I took from this is the Trade with its mystery ingredients is overpriced . The retail isn’t very good and lastly ( and you should get t shirts with this on Rog) .....”don’t paint in the dark “ 😂🤣😂 . Excellent video thanks 👍🏼🧱
Pushed into a corner they had to open the door to you guys, great questions, seems they are changing their sales practices to prevent further confrontations in the future rather than addressing the original question. I'm sure the paint is better but can't help feeling they didn't clarify enough and it's simply a matter of business whereby their mark-up on the trade and mixed paints are hugely better than the consumer variety. Think I'll be avoiding their products for my own use, particularly the trade variety.....top work Skillbuilder!
Neither covered perfectly with one coat (but the expensive Trade MAY have been better), but both would have covered perfectly with two coats. So not two coats v three or four.
brilliant - I am 8 minutes in and Dulux states the tradesman cliche "its not the parts its the labour" - the white powder is Titanium dioxide / cost around 2000U$ per ton
Poor show Dulux. I’m still confused. The cracks are showing but Dulux have just filled and painted them hiding the actual issues hoping it won’t all fall down.
if you get two walls and paint each one with each of these paints, 2 coats each, no one would ever be able to see the difference and if they did, it certainly wouldn't be worth 3x the price.
What a snow job by Dulux! I've a small decorating company for over 35 years and have never heard so much bull. We've now moved to Crown and are impressed, especially their water based gloss paint. Will be using Crown from now on. Incidentally, as many noted, Johnstone is the best for external masonry.
Economics are at play. If Dulux mixes 1 million tubs of paint in a production line and delivers them to B&Q to then forget about them whilst picking up the £. Then this is far more profitable than constant product development, operating retail decorating centres (with property fees, employee fees etc) and selling far fewer units. IMO, the trade product is obviously not worth 3 times more however you’re paying for the building you walk into, constant product development and a slightly better product. IF there is a difference of one coat per job then this might be worth it but I’ve always found two coats of retail is okay. Delux are simply passing their sizeable operating costs for their trade range to the trade customer. The problem they have is that if they share the cost across both retail and trade ranges then they would most likely price themselves out of the very competitive retail market that focuses mostly on price.
I was hoping the difference would be sorted . However with reference to the don't stir and we recommend you use it as it is regarding the retail paint. The instructions on the tin / tub clearly state " Stir to ensure paint is completely mixed" !!! So do I stir it or not, or buy the trade instead?
Always get the shop to shake it twice for you so it's thoroughly mixed. I personally use a mixing paddle in a cordless for stiring prior to use. Thanks to both of you for the video and keeping them on their toes. Cheers
@@SkillBuilder not sure about that, there is such a thing as overshake, can lead to other issues like window framing and colour fade especially outside as the tinter pigment stabilisation my be affected leading to tinter flowing out in the rain.
Fair play to Dulux for finally taking on this issue properly. Their argument about the benefits to tradespeople of being in and out in a day rather than two days is plausible and easily tested in the market. If the product sells to the target market, which it must do, the price is justified regardless of ingredient/manufacturing cost. I look forward to seeing the better information about product use. I also hope they develop better consumer information regarding effective use of their products as well as just better trade information.
Remember not to just think of the can of paint on its own when comparing. the vast majority of the cost of the paint is the factory and machinery, transport, storage, container, etc. This is pretty much exactly the same for both the paints, yet one is three times the cost of the other. There will be a marginal difference in production costs and a bit of R&D differential too. But mainly, the difference is ingredients and there is no way one is so much more to produce. They couldn’t really say anything else when you were there because anything else would have been admitting a rip off. Yes, the trade is better and costs more to develop and make. But nothing like the increased margin on the final cost. You exposed them and they are keeping the recipe and ingredient difference ‘secret’ because they can’t defend it if they tell you the actual facts.
Don't know if they still do it, but about 10 years ago Dulux trade centres used to do price matching. I needed about 60 litres for an infinity cove in a photographic studio I was building. I found an online retailer doing their Diamond White for half the cost in the local trade centre, they matched the price, with no fuss at all.
Excellent guys, well done. Respect to Dulux for having you in, but from my point didn't convince me enough as to the price difference over what you get. Although I suspect that it's all about profit which I'm sure they have modeled. Until market share or profits are effectived nothing will change.
I think he would have been happy with a refund from the start just on principle but i have learned a valuable lesson today and thats not to buy dulux no more thanks for the info roger
*Polt twist.* They put the trade paint in the retail bucket and the retail paint in the trade bucket. Nice one Roger, I've learned not to paint in the dark. The rest sounded like door salesman talk.
This all started from James being far too nice & polite & not asking prior to ordering a mix, the age old question... Price & availability?? Having said that, very interesting & informative content again from you guys. Well done & thankyou, it will come in handy in the future I'm sure
Will give Dulux some credit for actually inviting you in to their 'Academy' and trying to explain things, I liked the way the MD said they would make it clearer but still seemed to support the price. still not convinced me that their paint is worth the extra money and as a non account holder at Dulux I always seem to be looked down at when asking about their products, it's quite obvious I'm a decorator so why no discount?! other companies I use normally give me something off, I guess as 'Brand leader' they don't need people like me, fair enough.
Well done guy's you asked all the questions I've been asking all these years,Dulux trade is good stuff but not at those prices,after many years using Dulux I have started using other brands.
I'm from the states and I use sherwin williams. Their paint to regular consumers is probably some of the most expensive you can buy, but as a tradesman I get such a discount that I pay about the same walmart or home depot paint. It's confusing to me that the trades who use it all the time and buy the most paint get the shaft.
I've used Dulux trade in the past to cover some really bright orange walls in an old Living Well gym, it covered in one coat which I thought was superb as we'd priced it based on giving it 2/3 coats. It was dearer than other paint but it was well worth the extra cost. (We were using Royal Blue and a Sky Blue )
So you can do it in 2 coats rather than 3. So 3 tubs of retail to 2 trade. 90 quid retail. 220 quid trade. Now the question you've got to ask yourself is, would it save 130 quid in labour for one less coat. My reckoning is by the time you've masked off, set yourself up etc. Probably not that much difference. If you're slapping that stuff on external walls, you can blaze through a tub fairly quickly. So unless you're charging a fortune for labour then it doesn't make much sense. And if you do the job quicker, why does deluxe get all the extra pennies?
Really quality, unbiased reporting guys. Thoroughly enjoyed this one, especially asking the awkward questions, you definitely didn’t shy away from those 👍👍👍 you need a merch store or PayPal so we can give back to you 👍
Excellent questioning and put in a clear and rational way. If Dulux really had the interests of the buyer at heart they would say on each tub what this paint does better or worse than its own similar products. By my maths, a painty using 2 tubs a day of the Trade has to work about twice as fast as he would using Retail to make it worthwhile spending the extra - if the durability of finish is the same. All too confusing for the buyer - which I suspect it what Dulux want to protect their margins. I've already gone elsewhere! Why - because I find other products work better and there is a single product available at a reasonable cost.
Some interesting points, great video! I think Dulux could save themselves a lot of headaches if they renamed the Trade range to something like Premium.
Dear Dulux, Your trade paint is exorbitantly expensive (regardless of vendor) for the quality of finish and ease of use. It doesn't cut in the same colour as it rolls out. Thinning (which is always required) is a time consuming pain in the arse that negates any saving the theoretical extra coverage would provide. Wet film thickness retention on your trim paints is apalling. For these reasons I switched to Johnstones PPG for emulsion, Benjamin Moore for colour trim and Caparol for white trim some years back and haven't looked back. Regards A former DDC account holder
At the end of the day it's up to the buyer to decide if a product is worth buying at a certain price or not. The problem with this product is that there is no real attempt to explain the differences on the product containers.
What the foreign lady said about pigments and their resistance to weather make sense. If I have a preformulated (colour) paint and it's a colour that has high resistance to fade, Delux can skip on the protection. However, in the trade shop, where they don't know the proportions you are going to be using they always have to use plenty of protection as they don't know the combination you are going to be using
I believe it was something like £70 at the deluxe centre, and £40 somewhere else. The first video of this series has the background info to why there is this investigation.
I think the original issue was that the Weathershield was £40 in B&Q and £110 in Dulux trade centre although I belive they mixed it in the trade centre and it was "trade" Weathershield . Still in no way justifies the price difference. I've found trade centres are usually more expensive unless you're a high volume trade customer and then you get big discounts
Never knew someone could talk about paint for 45 minutes, it’s like , well watching paint dry. Excellent video as always Roger. I think even James thought he could have build 5 lofts in the time this video took. 😀😀
Big respect roger for asking the awkward questions that matter.
This is how it should be, cut the BS and just put facts in front of the managers so they can answer - you can tell Dulux are regretting trying to fob Skillbuilder and James off with a free Hat and generic email replys.. oh how wrong they were hoping it would just go away.
Paxman would be proud of that comparison
They said nothing to justify the cost difference between trade and domestic. The ingredients do not cost £90 more for trade, so why are they charging £90 more. If the ingredients were £10 more per tub then that's a justifiable price increase.
You should have taken your own trade and retail samples, not used their 'pre-prepared' samples.
@@stevemcguin1871 But they know 2 things:
1. The painter will value the time saved by only having to do less coats.
2. The price of the paint will be passed on to the customer anyway.
Dulux win and the painter wins because he can do more jobs in a month.
It looks like Roger has been called in to meet the head master because his son James has been in trouble
🤣🤣🤣🤣
This comment wins the day for me! 😂😂😂
😂😂😂 Barry wins the comments
🤣
Fair play Roger, the extra cost for the trade stuff pays for these guys to explain to you why it's worth it.
I agree.
Still trying to decide was he trying to convince himself or Roger
Well said Capt!
Their excuses weren’t worth 10p let alone the difference in cost.
Absolutely ripping off tradesman. Simple as that. Big collar was an absolute business man, has no idea what the paint does. I still don't know why it is so much more expensive.
In this episode we learn from Roger how to say. "What a load of crap" in polite way.
Thank you, great work.
Still not going to use dulux because of the way it was handled from the start
Well spoken mate! I absolutely agree.
Huge respect to Roger and team for doing this and not losing the cool, just speak, listen and show... big thumbs up!
Why am I more interested in the Dulux scandal than Brexit, Covid, or any other issue/scandal happening currently!?!!!!
You’re addicted to whitewash. 😷
Dulux, Kingspan, Celotex they’re all the same. Lies and deceit in the pursuit of profits.
@@beano6452 you should set up your own paint factory. Without any lies, deceits or pursuit for profits.
Dulux is real the others are a fearmongering scam.
Charging more for a trade product because it saves you time to apply does not justify charging the customer more if the ingredients cost are not significantly different
If you can save £50 in labour it's ok to charge £40 for the paint
Great point
It does if your name is Dulux ; )
Material costs are barely what you are paying for. Go and buy a ball bearing that's made to go in a washing machine, then go and buy one that's made for Aerospace. Both will be made with the same materials, but one is made to much much higher standards and is much more consistent from batch to batch.
Cost a lot more for Gordon Ramsey to cook you a steak compared to getting one in Wetherspoons, won’t be much difference in the cost price there either
These dulux guys should be politicians.
Exactly..They don't like being exposed 🤭
Yep the politics there 🙈🙈
Ha ha get them on Covid strategy
They all have verbal diarrhoea. A plethora of words and variables and plenty of room for excuses. If it fails to meet expectations they will have a prepared spiel to explain how it’s all the painters fault.
Or bank robbers 🤔
Can't believe that the Dulux guy is called Matt Grey.
Or how Matt just glossed over the issues... I saw a pic of him before , he seems to have lost weight... he's thinner... but he needs to brush up on his PR skills.
😎👍☘🍺
Apparently his favourite song is knights in white satin by the moody blues!😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
Matt is the only paint to use.
I lost a LOT of tea when that flashed up ...
There is definitely a difrence but not 3 times the cost difrence
Exactly my thoughts.
He says don’t stir the normal. Never known that.
He says the normal needs another coat over trade. Surely one extra coat doesn’t cost the £100 in extra time over the trade. Crazy.
Exponential price increase for less value. Seems to be the way of everything.
@@MrSmid888 how much labour for the additional coat?
@@danielcoward3469 Only applies to trades. Zero cost at home. Most painters use a 12”+ roller. An extra coat of the cheap doesn’t take them long. Your still getting a quality finish with the non trade. It’s a madness at the prices.
Bullshit baffles brains.
Buy the consumer product and save ££££££££‘s!
Fair play to the Dulux guy at the start discussing the paints, very knowledgeable and professional and all whilst it being filmed.
But due to the online prowess of these episodes, it will al be very well rehearsed. I know, as I come from an advertising background and have been involved in ‘brand exercises’.
There’s a reason I have my own P&D business - because I don’t agree with the fake and the lies in order to extract your money.
"So what paint would you use in future?"
"Johnstone's"
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Dulux has left the chat.
The fact you don’t need to hire scaffold for as long doesn’t mean they can up their profit margin!The difference in price should only be down to the ingredients and they didn’t really explain that in any detail
You're thinking products are sold for what they cost to make plus a margin, they are not, they are sold for what they are worth
@@tomhill54 so what you mean is they sold for what they can get away with?
@@Settez123 sadly!
@@ian_s7481 absolutely
They are sold at the price people will pay. If everyone abandoned Dulux and switched to Johnstones or whatever (which is cheaper anyway) they'd start rethinking their pricing. But nobody will...
I'm still confused about the massive price hike. For instance, 5l of coloured weathershield at Homebase ( other DIY stores available ) is £30.. The paint Shed ( other online stores available ) Will mix you any colour Trade Weathershield for £44.33 inc VAT.. So, does the problem lie with the Dulux Trade centre that sold the paint. The Dulux guy did a lot to try and justify the huge differnce in price when it's obviously clearly possible to buy the Trade version for an extra £15 which is what James thought at the start of the saga...
Bang on, the issue here doesn't seem to be the general price of Dulux Trade Weathershield, but the fact that particular decorator centre sold it to him for an exorbitant amount. Was it a pricing error??
I have to say, I'm not a tradey, just a casual DIYer but even I can work out the difference between retail and trade paint and know ones more expensive than the other!
I think Roger you conducted yourself well, clear questioning, accepting answers but pushing for further information if required. Fair play fellas and keep this type of product comparison up, you have the clout and the backing from your subs, all to aid everybody from customers, trades and just the interested 3 rd party.
I respect that dulex and Alistair invited you up. They haven't covered themselves in glory before this but at least they're trying to be transparent. Still difficult to understand how a tin of mixed paint can cost £110 especially when that's charged against their most important customers but hey ho!
Also great that they seem to be taking criticism seriously and are planning to do something about it
James was looking like someone watching there dad starting going off on one then thinking why did I tell dad about this
Just to add I reckon ones just got more thickener agent in it.
Even the experts use the word "coverage" wrong. Coverage is measured in m2, and is used to calculate the area a specific amount of paint will cover. What he should be saying is opacity, which relates to the hiding power, an how well it hides the stuff beneath.
Bang on, when I used to sell paint everyone asked about coverage as in how far will it go, rather than opacity, how much light will travel through it.
Doesn't it depend on the substrate though?
Well same thing sure by coverage they're referring to 100 percent opacity over a given area. One will give you more area i.e. coverage for 100 percent opacity than the other.
8:00 so basically Deluxe are saying "We make it expensive as we assume you're just pass it on to the customer in your end bill. You'll be able to do the job quicker but you'll have to charge the customer more because we sell the trade paint for more. We can't even claim its cause of R&D costs because surely after a year or so of the sales, its covered the cost of R&D"
That’s exactly what it is
@@amac1657 They could argue "We're not just covering the costs of R&D, we're making you fund future R&D that will mainly benefit us in profit, but also does benefit you in productivity". However all that was ruined when yet another paint pot was discovered at the end :)
Still was decent of them to offer to do this. Most would of just ignored you. And they appeared honest enough. Even if the apology was fine, I'd hate to think they then berated the store where the question was bought up, as it still sounded like the answer originally came from head office yet head office appeared to original tell the store to apologise.
Dulux are just as bad
Thanks for doing that, incredibly patronising the way Dulux treat their retail customers, helps make it easy for those of use that know how to paint (but don't paint every day) to choose our paint supplier in future.
1) Could James tells the difference between the two during painting?
2) Can the client tell the difference in the finish?
If NO and NO then they are taking you for a ride.
The client can tell the difference in money... you have to pay a painter for 1/3 extra time!.. And that's taking in only the fact that have do another coat, let alone the extra in applying the coats due to the paint being harder to work with.
@@Robert-cu9bm But if James done none of those things then your point is mute. I haven't heard that James had trouble with the retail paint or gave it an extra coat. Besides he was painting pebble dash not the ceiling on the Sistine chapel.
@@TurinTuramber
I was talking about Clients in general to your second question.
It was all done in two coats using both paints. And fortunately we were told (as you would’ve seen in the video) that there would be no difference in the colour fading or durability.
@@jimichip I didn't understand that to be the case James. She wasn't very clear and did a poor job explaining in my opinion. Her answer was poor because she couldn't comment on the performance over 10 years of the job you specifically did, as she couldn't guarantee you hadn't painted different sides of the house for example with the different paints or that you hadn't painted them with different air temperature when applied.
Her comment was that in Lab conditions, i.e. painted on exactly the same walls with exactly the same conditions, the trade WILL have better colour-fastness, alkali resistance, and adhesion over that 10 year period.
I think they had a difficult job of walking the line in this video, as they can't be seen to be shitting on the consumer paint range to make the difference more clear between the trade.
I'm also surprised that they didn't comment on whether they make the trade to higher standards to ensure that the colour matching is closer between different batches and if it is more consistent in general.
The Mrs thought it was "like watching paint dry". I thought it was a great piece. Top job Rog and James. And fair play to AkzoNobel - good response: not perfect, but as open as we could expect them to be I think. Keep doing what you do Skill Builder!
I never knew watching paint dry could be so interesting!
Great work Roger and James for continuing to follow this up and bring great content to your viewers!
Great product journalism Roger, you're like a dog with a bone, asking intuitive questions. Very informative on technique for application, the Dulux brand did very well playing ball. Roger this shows the respect your opinion has, well done buddy.
Dulux haven't covered themselves well here, tried baffling with Bull, scaffolding cost and paint cost againt 3 to 4 coats, what a load of BULL.
I was thinking same mate 😂😂😂😂
Scaf cost is our prob not theres snd should never be used as an explination asto why they are charging us as tradesmen more to use there products
@@Doyle-E
The scaff costs become the tradies if the delay the scaff coming down.
Then the extra cost of the trade paint are miniscule to the costs of delay clauses in contracts.
Lol since when do you need to do 3 to 4 coats with dulux. 2 is max coats for the past 20 years.
Faffing about
With Truthful LIES
Roger nailed it down without any fear at all... thanks once again Roger
As some one who has completed multiple apprenticeships including nvq diploma level 2 and 3 in painting and decorating I can confirm a lot of bamf was used as a smoke screen in this video.
Yes trade is better then retail but generally you will find your self putting on two coats of either regardless.
Love how you weren’t blinded by the BS. Big respect.
I heard the word “slightly..” a lot from the people at Dulux, fair enough I get some products may be “better” than others but the difference in price is astonishing and they chose their words very carefully just like a politician
Builders merchants have displayed grossly inflated prices for all their products for years... My advice is to shop around if you can and haggle... !
Always haggle in builders merchants. A couple of nudges on the tippy tappy and they’ll get your over inflated prices down. You won’t have any luck in b&q and the like, and the B&Q trade card is a con as you won’t know what you get a discount on until you get to the till to which point you just want to pay and go; if you do get a discount it’s Small. To be fair though b&q aggregates is fairly priced.
@noxxi knox I know, crap.
The amount of money tradesman spend should give them a good discount, just as dulux say bulk buying of ingredients makes products cheaper, but that only seems to apply to retail customers. Brand loyalty means nothing to big companies.
"Trade only" means nothing,
If a member of the public walks into any store they can get the same price for a one off purchase as a loyal trade customer.
Howdens joinery is a prime example of this.
@noxxi knox I only keep mine because I can speed through the trade till instead of standing in the general queue!
Slashley gibbins, always use b and q trade on line and get it delivered, I sit down and do a big order for the week, had some amazing discounts recently compared to my local trade only paint store.
Does that stuff travel around in a security van ... yup that was the moment I spat my tea out
DO A BLIND TEST ... can 5 tradies tell a difference in use, finish and end result?
I thought Roger was about to do a blind test when I seen him put his face mask on 😂
You'd know as soon as you opened the tin
5 half decent decorators could. But it's a bit more technical than just dipping a roller into the tub and throwing it at a wall. Should be able to pass a blind test just by finding the volume solids
They smell conpletely different. What I'd like to see is an independent side by side test of all paints.
@@Lloyd1885Have the paint already in the trays then, using manufacturers guidance on mixing etc. Load up all the rollers in exactly the same way and then get the painter to start the blind test from there.
I’m a decorator I use dulux trade paint regularly and have used the retail versions.
There is a big price difference but I can vouch for the trade it’s worth every penny
On a dark base colour you have to give it more coats with the retail
I love watching your videos guys keep it up
Watched it now, cheers for pointing me to this one... 👍
Having used both retail and trade dulux emulsion, I'd agree there is a difference, but not enough to always justify the price.
During shortgages during lockdown, I had no choice but to use dulux retail, and I can honestly say, if I didnt know it was retail, I wouldn't have guessed...
The question I would have asked would have been What is more valuable to their business, trade or retail..
Nice work lads. Its about time someone went to their door and asked these questions. Great effort.
Shame they weren’t so responsive at the beginning .
Yep. Only when still someone stopped the very negative press did that bother to react.
Very interesting video! I've been a painter for a few years now, and there was some excellent information in there that I wish I'd known a while ago.
I have real difficulty selling Dulux Trade Paint to customers when Dulux have made their mixed Heritage paint available in Trade ONLY.
In a small way it’s holding those who want Heritage colours to hostage.
I’ve been selling paint for 20 years and I’ve been massively critical of Dulux for the last 4 years. I encourage customers to try Crown, an own brand like our own. Just explore.
I’ve enjoyed the exposure this has brought but I may bring this vid to our Dulux Rep’s attention.
The one thing I definitely wanted to see was the customer service issue being fixed, and it’s nice to see that they have now implemented a policy of stating the cost of a mixed paint upfront.
In normal circumstances, no quality paint should require 3 or 4 coats for proper coverage. Not having it.
Exactly...them saying this paint here is better than our shit paint at 3 times the price doesn't cut it with me. Johnstons from now on.
There should be a standard for opacity like there is a British Standard for colour..paints should be graded, its something I suggested to the PDA once, never heard back from them though.
I agree totally... doesn’t make sense to me
@@robthesamplist some johnstones trade products are better but a lot of dulux trade products are better especially the oil based gloss and satinwood used on interiors johnstones gloss - satin will yellow much faster than dulux crown trade gloss and satin will stay white a lot longer too johnstones hybrid paints yellow faster too
@@jackwardley3626 whites the deluxe diamond stuff like?
great vid why not do a Johnstone v Dulux paint covering I would love to know what is better
the dulux trade weathershield cover's better and plus jono's stormshield doesnt bridge airline cracks sandtex trade masonry is good.
Brilliant video guys. Good curve ball at the end with the ultimate protection. What I took from this is that whilst the trade paint is a better paint, and takes less labur to get a good finish, thus savings on final customer price, it seems dulux want to take advantage of this by charging a considerable amount more which is then passed on to the customer. I still dont understand the huge price hike in the trade paint.
Bet they were relieved that they didn't know about the 'ultimate protection' one before the visit. Either that or they forgot themselves!
Well done Roger . Dulux did not convince me with their answers but fair play to them for meeting with you.
Basically they've realised that the cost of paint is such a small component in the cost of a decorating job that they've been able to slowly ratchet the price of the trade up over the years until the point we're at now which is obviously ridiculous. Well done for bringing up the point because it's something they would just keep increasing otherwise.
If they could make a proper gloss that didn't yellow then I'm sure everyone would happily pay 5 times the cost. But on the emulsion the extra cost is impossible to justify, as they just proved in all their interviews
Well done for following this up and asking what needed to be asked .. and getting some answers
Nice one Roger taking no prisoners 👌🏼. What I took from this is the Trade with its mystery ingredients is overpriced . The retail isn’t very good and lastly
( and you should get t shirts with this on Rog) .....”don’t paint in the dark “ 😂🤣😂 . Excellent video thanks 👍🏼🧱
😂😂😂
@@jimichip 😏👍🏼🧱
Don't buy Dulux paint, they're ripping you off. Never heard so much waffle, since I went to buy a second hand car, 30 years ago.
@@eddykelly4082 😬🤣🤣🧱👍🏽
Pushed into a corner they had to open the door to you guys, great questions, seems they are changing their sales practices to prevent further confrontations in the future rather than addressing the original question. I'm sure the paint is better but can't help feeling they didn't clarify enough and it's simply a matter of business whereby their mark-up on the trade and mixed paints are hugely better than the consumer variety. Think I'll be avoiding their products for my own use, particularly the trade variety.....top work Skillbuilder!
Well done James to flag it up, and Roger to tell Dulux how it is. 👊🏻
Cheers Dan, looking forward to meeting you!!!
@@jimichip 👍🏻
I’m very much an amateur when it comes to decorating but even so I found this video well worth watching.
I think James' face at 29:45 pretty much sums up his thoughts...
Glad I’ve seen this. A slight difference in price is understandable, but not the huge difference they’re asking for.
Neither covered perfectly with one coat (but the expensive Trade MAY have been better), but both would have covered perfectly with two coats. So not two coats v three or four.
Awesome roger. Genuinely going the extra mile you are. Thanks so much for doing this.
brilliant - I am 8 minutes in and Dulux states the tradesman cliche "its not the parts its the labour" - the white powder is Titanium dioxide / cost around 2000U$ per ton
So thats 20 per kilo, an extra 50% would be an extra ten dollars not 80
Poor show Dulux. I’m still confused. The cracks are showing but Dulux have just filled and painted them hiding the actual issues hoping it won’t all fall down.
if you get two walls and paint each one with each of these paints, 2 coats each, no one would ever be able to see the difference and if they did, it certainly wouldn't be worth 3x the price.
As a decorator of 17 years, i say you are wrong. Also, the trade gear is less time consuming and flows better on the roller/brush.
@@itsjustme9179 as a wall viewer of 40 years, I say you are wrong.
As CSA in a DIY shed, questions about the difference are quite popular, so thanks SB & Dulux for the info.
This is the best Johnstone’s advert I’ve ever seen 😂
you do realise johnstones trade paint cost a lot more than their retail too their stormshield masonry is a lot more than their retail
What a snow job by Dulux! I've a small decorating company for over 35 years and have never heard so much bull. We've now moved to Crown and are impressed, especially their water based gloss paint. Will be using Crown from now on. Incidentally, as many noted, Johnstone is the best for external masonry.
Economics are at play.
If Dulux mixes 1 million tubs of paint in a production line and delivers them to B&Q to then forget about them whilst picking up the £. Then this is far more profitable than constant product development, operating retail decorating centres (with property fees, employee fees etc) and selling far fewer units.
IMO, the trade product is obviously not worth 3 times more however you’re paying for the building you walk into, constant product development and a slightly better product. IF there is a difference of one coat per job then this might be worth it but I’ve always found two coats of retail is okay.
Delux are simply passing their sizeable operating costs for their trade range to the trade customer. The problem they have is that if they share the cost across both retail and trade ranges then they would most likely price themselves out of the very competitive retail market that focuses mostly on price.
I was hoping the difference would be sorted . However with reference to the don't stir and we recommend you use it as it is regarding the retail paint. The instructions on the tin / tub clearly state " Stir to ensure paint is completely mixed" !!!
So do I stir it or not, or buy the trade instead?
Damp cloth to wipe away your tears, :) nice one Rog
Dudes! Great video. James, that last comment killed me. LOL!
Interesting but Johnstones Trade does it for me thanks. There is a difference between trade and consumer but not 3 times as much
Always get the shop to shake it twice for you so it's thoroughly mixed. I personally use a mixing paddle in a cordless for stiring prior to use. Thanks to both of you for the video and keeping them on their toes. Cheers
Great advice from Helicrete as usual. Double shake.
@@SkillBuilder not sure about that, there is such a thing as overshake, can lead to other issues like window framing and colour fade especially outside as the tinter pigment stabilisation my be affected leading to tinter flowing out in the rain.
Did I just watch a man tell Rodger how to use a roller. F*** me! Nicely done gents.
Fair play to Dulux for finally taking on this issue properly. Their argument about the benefits to tradespeople of being in and out in a day rather than two days is plausible and easily tested in the market. If the product sells to the target market, which it must do, the price is justified regardless of ingredient/manufacturing cost. I look forward to seeing the better information about product use. I also hope they develop better consumer information regarding effective use of their products as well as just better trade information.
Great job Roger
Which do you use?
Hi Keith! Love your vids ;)
Fair play to all parties including Dulux for participating in this and even the MD!
Remember not to just think of the can of paint on its own when comparing. the vast majority of the cost of the paint is the factory and machinery, transport, storage, container, etc. This is pretty much exactly the same for both the paints, yet one is three times the cost of the other. There will be a marginal difference in production costs and a bit of R&D differential too. But mainly, the difference is ingredients and there is no way one is so much more to produce.
They couldn’t really say anything else when you were there because anything else would have been admitting a rip off.
Yes, the trade is better and costs more to develop and make. But nothing like the increased margin on the final cost.
You exposed them and they are keeping the recipe and ingredient difference ‘secret’ because they can’t defend it if they tell you the actual facts.
Don't know if they still do it, but about 10 years ago Dulux trade centres used to do price matching. I needed about 60 litres for an infinity cove in a photographic studio I was building. I found an online retailer doing their Diamond White for half the cost in the local trade centre, they matched the price, with no fuss at all.
What a load of waffle, James looks like he still wants his money back.
Dulux shame on you, caught with your pants down 🤑
Yes, listen carefully "Bing, Bing, Bing" My B.S. detector is ringing off the scale.
Magic fairy dust additives have to be mined by specially trained moles, so it makes sense...
Excellent guys, well done. Respect to Dulux for having you in, but from my point didn't convince me enough as to the price difference over what you get. Although I suspect that it's all about profit which I'm sure they have modeled. Until market share or profits are effectived nothing will change.
I think he would have been happy with a refund from the start just on principle but i have learned a valuable lesson today and thats not to buy dulux no more thanks for the info roger
They really needed to justify that price difference - trade secrets yes, but 3 times the price? Well done guys.
*Polt twist.* They put the trade paint in the retail bucket and the retail paint in the trade bucket.
Nice one Roger, I've learned not to paint in the dark. The rest sounded like door salesman talk.
This all started from James being far too nice & polite & not asking prior to ordering a mix, the age old question... Price & availability?? Having said that, very interesting & informative content again from you guys. Well done & thankyou, it will come in handy in the future I'm sure
Will give Dulux some credit for actually inviting you in to their 'Academy' and trying to explain things, I liked the way the MD said they would make it clearer but still seemed to support the price. still not convinced me that their paint is worth the extra money and as a non account holder at Dulux I always seem to be looked down at when asking about their products, it's quite obvious I'm a decorator so why no discount?! other companies I use normally give me something off, I guess as 'Brand leader' they don't need people like me, fair enough.
In that case they won't miss people like you when you decide to go somewhere else then 👍
@@rob5944 I use Johnston paints
Best video you've made, incredibly useful. Thanks. 😊
blinding everyone with science , dulux cowboys i never use the thieves
Well done guy's you asked all the questions I've been asking all these years,Dulux trade is good stuff but not at those prices,after many years using Dulux I have started using other brands.
I'm from the states and I use sherwin williams. Their paint to regular consumers is probably some of the most expensive you can buy, but as a tradesman I get such a discount that I pay about the same walmart or home depot paint. It's confusing to me that the trades who use it all the time and buy the most paint get the shaft.
Sales and pricing U.K style mate...we are used to it
I've used Dulux trade in the past to cover some really bright orange walls in an old Living Well gym, it covered in one coat which I thought was superb as we'd priced it based on giving it 2/3 coats. It was dearer than other paint but it was well worth the extra cost.
(We were using Royal Blue and a Sky Blue )
So you can do it in 2 coats rather than 3. So 3 tubs of retail to 2 trade. 90 quid retail. 220 quid trade. Now the question you've got to ask yourself is, would it save 130 quid in labour for one less coat. My reckoning is by the time you've masked off, set yourself up etc. Probably not that much difference. If you're slapping that stuff on external walls, you can blaze through a tub fairly quickly. So unless you're charging a fortune for labour then it doesn't make much sense. And if you do the job quicker, why does deluxe get all the extra pennies?
An ode to the constuction industry. Cheers Skill Builder, top job
Really quality, unbiased reporting guys. Thoroughly enjoyed this one, especially asking the awkward questions, you definitely didn’t shy away from those 👍👍👍 you need a merch store or PayPal so we can give back to you 👍
Excellent questioning and put in a clear and rational way. If Dulux really had the interests of the buyer at heart they would say on each tub what this paint does better or worse than its own similar products. By my maths, a painty using 2 tubs a day of the Trade has to work about twice as fast as he would using Retail to make it worthwhile spending the extra - if the durability of finish is the same. All too confusing for the buyer - which I suspect it what Dulux want to protect their margins. I've already gone elsewhere! Why - because I find other products work better and there is a single product available at a reasonable cost.
Some interesting points, great video! I think Dulux could save themselves a lot of headaches if they renamed the Trade range to something like Premium.
TH-cam documentary of the year!
Thanks Dulux and you two Roger and James. I thought this was a very informative video.
Dear Dulux,
Your trade paint is exorbitantly expensive (regardless of vendor) for the quality of finish and ease of use. It doesn't cut in the same colour as it rolls out. Thinning (which is always required) is a time consuming pain in the arse that negates any saving the theoretical extra coverage would provide. Wet film thickness retention on your trim paints is apalling.
For these reasons I switched to Johnstones PPG for emulsion, Benjamin Moore for colour trim and Caparol for white trim some years back and haven't looked back.
Regards
A former DDC account holder
Trim😏
Please tell me thats your real name!? 🍦
@@nathancumming1 Back atcha :)
Well done roger, great questions
At the end of the day it's up to the buyer to decide if a product is worth buying at a certain price or not.
The problem with this product is that there is no real attempt to explain the differences on the product containers.
What the foreign lady said about pigments and their resistance to weather make sense. If I have a preformulated (colour) paint and it's a colour that has high resistance to fade, Delux can skip on the protection. However, in the trade shop, where they don't know the proportions you are going to be using they always have to use plenty of protection as they don't know the combination you are going to be using
Isn’t the trade stuff only £40 a tub anyway? Isn’t it just that the dulux shop we’re taking the piss with the price?
I believe it was something like £70 at the deluxe centre, and £40 somewhere else. The first video of this series has the background info to why there is this investigation.
Price is relative to each contractor's account. I've seen account tiers up to %75 discount.
Trade matt is 40 quid in B and Q
I think the original issue was that the Weathershield was £40 in B&Q and £110 in Dulux trade centre although I belive they mixed it in the trade centre and it was "trade" Weathershield . Still in no way justifies the price difference. I've found trade centres are usually more expensive unless you're a high volume trade customer and then you get big discounts
Never knew someone could talk about paint for 45 minutes, it’s like , well watching paint dry. Excellent video as always Roger. I think even James thought he could have build 5 lofts in the time this video took. 😀😀
The trade paint is a bit better , but its not worth the hefty price !!! and most customers would not pay the extra