THANKS FOR ALL THE SUPPORT ON THIS SERIES! Just a reminder that though we research these videos as thoroughly as we can, we will miss some details in some of the complex stories that are only available now through old videos and archived webpages. So please let us know if we miss anything and we will be sure to amend it here in the comments! ============================= Join our Discord Channel💬 ► discord.gg/3aeNPU7GHu Twitter ► twitter.com/frame_voyager Instagram ► instagram.com/framevoyager/ TikTok ► www.tiktok.com/@framevoyager Join our TH-cam channel 📺 ►th-cam.com/channels/mXGDFnFh95WlZjhwmA5aeQ.htmljoin
I worked on a film in Australia called TRIANGLE (2009) and we shot Genesis during the mid 2008 shoot. I was the data wrangler or digital truck loader as we were calling it back then before DITs were a thing. I had just come off a feature that shot RED ONE and so was used to the data process with a laptop and hard drives, but suddenly I jumped onto this film on Genesis and they were shooting the solid state recorders (SSR). However it turned out that they were only shooting the SSR to reduce the weight of the camera for steadicam which the film shot a bunch with. My job was to take the SSR, dock it and dual SDI to two daisy chained HDCAM SR tape decks to record the contents of the SSR onto a master and backup tape and then once I was sure that the mastering was complete - wips the SSR so it could be used right away, To make matters worse, the dual SDI would sometimes have frame dropouts so I'd need to watch like a dang hawk that the rushes had been transferred with no interruption to the video. It's an absolute miracle I got through that job. Bizarre.
Wow what a workflow! That bit about having to watch the frame for any dropouts at all would’ve had me on edge! Did you get a little private tent so nobody could bother you?
@@justforfunvideohobby More like my own private table. Thats about it. lol. And yep... on edge is a good way to put it. I was so sure I'd screw up without realizing it - but never got that call from the assistant editor. Phew!
2 ปีที่แล้ว +12
David Fincher´s take on it was really funny. He has a long relationship with RED cameras, loves digital cinema and is not afraid of trying new ways of doing things (like adopting Adobe Premiere to edit his films).
Yeah Fincher used a Thompson Viper for "Zodiac" and apart from it being matted a little too much (seriosly, it would have looked batter opened to 1,85:1) it still looked pretty good. Just not really a lot of shallow Depth but maybe that was also a deliberate choice.
The issue that Panavision ran into with their lenses could have been this: 3CCD cameras use a prism splitter system to separate Red, Green and Blue. This results in the three image sensors to be in different planes (at slightly different back focal lengths). This requires lenses for 3CCD cameras to be more or less image-telecentric, which is a severe constraint for lens design. Film meanwhile cares very little about this - far less than even single sensor cameras, so it's basically not a consideration at all for lenses designed for film.
Yep! There was no room for that backend element. And even when they did get it to work there was loss in quality. A bit of speculation on whether it was really their fault but kind of an odd thing for Lucas to go a different direction. Kind of interesting
The lenses were made specifically for the 2/3rds inch sensors and were at the time the highest resolution lenses as the photo sites of a sensor that size were much smaller. A real technical achievement. Yes collimating lenses for film cameras is different for digital; but almost exactly the opposite way you mentioned. FILM has the color at three different depths where as the single chip sensor has each of the colors at the same plane. Yes there could be “defects” in the 3CCD prism; but would be caught at the service level and fixed before sending to the prep floor for the client.
@@grgzlsk The different colour layers of film are at different depths, but only by a few microns, so non-telecentric rays aren't affected much more than telecentric ones. In a single chip sensor though the rays exiting the lens will then normally have to pass through the optical low-pass filter, then the microlens above each photosite. So non-telecentric rays can react very differently to telecentric ones. This often most notable in the corners where vignettes can occur. Hence why many modern lenses are designed to be telecentric, so that they play nice with digital cameras. At Panavision, when testing for some of their lenses, they actually put an extra piece of glass inside the lens projector to simulate the effect of the OLPF.
@@FrameVoyager I have a question… I and my friend were arguing about who has the right to say so when it comes to actors and actress. can Film distributors say to a producer/ director, that they don’t want this actor or actress in the movie?
Appreciate it! Yeah, some of them are really hard to find information on or their specs run together with other cameras in the series. Glad you liked it!
I did some miniature compositing on Genesis footage. I can agree that VFX work was very easy on this footage; pulling keys etc. Its better today but at the time most VFX work had artifacts when pulling fine keys that looked like compression or mpeg artifacts. I believe the Genesis was also about $250K for the rental houses but was never offered for purchase... honestly purchasing cameras was a byproduct of the Red One.
@@cliffberry - Arri sold their camera to anyone. Panavision was a rental only system, and you have to rent from Panavision. Arri sold to other rental houses, and schools, and DP owner / operators and commercial production house etc.
Not sure I agree with your conclusion: Panavision did develop a new digital camera years later (DXL and DXL2), which definitely captured it's niche. And the rental-only model with upgrades and customization is going stronger than ever in my opinion, with Arri having joined in on it with the Alexa 65, Alexa B+W and a lot of very specialized cameras for specific projects like the SXT M and handcrank D21. And these days it's all in the optics with Arri and Panavision battling it out with a lot of rental exclusive series and customization for each movie.
@@FrameVoyager Yeah, 00s-early 10s were wild times, but these days the generational improvements are tiny and the market has largely settled. The 4k mandate cost Arri some Marketshare to RED for some time, but the Sony Venice really made it tough for RED. These days RED really is far away from Arri and Sony's Marketshare at the high-end. I feel like there hasn't been any real interest in the Komodo and V-Raptor and the V-Raptor XL just drowned in the Alexa 35 hype.
2 ปีที่แล้ว +4
DXL is just a RED monstro Ranger with an MDR built in, and colour science made by a post house. The DXL1 was a huge flop as well, I believe genesis is why they had to buy and off the shelf camera to do their next venture
@ DXL came before the Ranger. RED took Panavision’s idea and ran with it to a (slightly) mass market. There are quite a few reasons the DXL has not seen that much success but it being “off the rack” is not necessarily one.
2 ปีที่แล้ว +2
@@theyou0345 Ranger was already in development by then. It wasn't a "hen/egg" situation. The DXL was littered with faults. Season 2 of "13 reasons why" used it for their first episode because the DP wanted it. It ended up being a massive headache and the DP got fired, and the episode had to be reshot. The DXL2 however, is amazing, and a totally different animal. But no, the original DXL is just a weapon sensor in a different suit.
Great video! Love this series! A big part of the early success of Panavision was their development of anamorphic lenses that eliminated the artifact called anamorphic mumps that was most prominent on the Cinemascope Anamorphic lenses. This is why The Robe, How to Marry a Millionaire and other Cinemascope films did not have closeups.
It’s honestly wild that nobody has posted more TH-cam videos shot on Genesis since this video came out. It appears mine are the last for now. Great work
I think this camera actually lived out the life that was intended for it. Its super high end niche, and that's not a bad thing. It was a crucial step taken to get where we are now. I would say "abandoned" is a strong word. But Im really just being hyperbolic. I love this series and applaud you work. I fear this contribution to our history will never find adequate monetary compensation, so Ill attempt to do it spiritually; "your the man dude"
There was no mention of the visual flaws with the chips on SUPERMAN RETURNS, which required hundreds of thousands of dollars of digital fixes, which I believe Panavision had to pay for. It was a minor scandal in the VFX department, but some technicians made a lot of money on it. I think it's fair to say the camera tanked because it couldn't keep up with newer, better digital cinema cameras from Arri and Sony (and eventually Red).
Hmmmm... That's very interesting! I went through as much as I could find on the Superman Returns movie and didn't come across this, otherwise I would have had it in the video! Thanks for the information though! Considering going back at some point and doing a follow up video for this series adding in the extra information I missed. Hard to find the information online or who to actually talk to about these cameras but since starting the series have had a lot more sources come forward to help add in some information!
haha appreciate it! And that one is definitely coming! I've got the Sony Cinealta F35 the twin to the Genesis coming next week, then the Fran 8K, and then I might do the Ikonoscope because everyone has been asking for it haha
I own a Blackmagic digital camera and it is fine. But I come from the film camera world and my last camera was a Nikon F2 from 45 years ago. One can use a 12K digital camera and output to several formats, but film holds the image for decades and can be scanned again to new formats. Directors love this idea. Just imagine that a movie like 2001 a Space Odyssey being captured on 720p, 8bit, 4:2:0. Thank God they still make film.
As a film guy, before Alexa, I really enjoyed working with the genesis. Near the end we used the convergent design odyssey as the recorder, which cut down a ton of weight
Excellent choice. The 7q is still popular today. Do you have any clips you would be willing to post on TH-cam from the Genesis? Maybe some behind the scenes stories or footage/photos?
I think one of the really interesting things about the Genesis is how often it was used for sort of hybrid films. Where the day stuff would be shot on film and the night stuff would be shot on Genesis. An example of this would be Tony Scott's Deja Vu, another interesting hybrid film is State of Play which used Anamorphic 35 for the journalism scenes, and Genesis with spherical lenses for the political scenes. I can't remember of Fincher ever actually shot with the Genesis camera, I think he may have shot a commercial with the F35 though and I know that some of Benjamin Button was shot on the F23.
If Fincher ever shot on Genesis it was a commercial or short or something. Zodiac and Benjamin Button were Thomson VIPER with some F23 on the latter and everything after has been the latest flavor of RED.
They later made a solid state version of the mag I've used it, you can do playback like you can with sd cards and other solid state media. Still big and heavy but less so. It was also terrifying because there's like a dozen pins and you're trying not to bend any of them
I love to shoot with the panavision genesis one day soon. I believe should make a new version of it. A genesis 2.0! It'll look the same, but with a few changes. I actually made an Instagram post about the camera & the new vision of it recently. Again, I love to shoot/experiment with the genesis camera one day soon.
@@justforfunvideohobby I don't know but, I think 8mm is basically 1080 resolution but distortions limit it's ability to render clarity. meanwhile 35mm is closer to 4K however the blooms and distortions well you get the idea. it doesn't matter the line resolution because it's a series of overlapping circular blooms. it's analog and you can't really accurately quantify it digitally as a result.
It would be awesome to do an incredibly in depth look at the rise of digital cameras. Would love to get interviews set up for all of these, hard to access these people lol
I find it kinda amazing that you get to the question of why was the Genesis abandoned and then completely ignore the Sony F35 until it’s time to tease it for the next video. Try to imagine how Panavision execs felt when Sony unveiled the F35.
Sure, but you can always feel free to reach out if you want the inside track on some stuff. I have intimate knowledge on a lot of these cameras & their history behind the scenes.
@@mitchgross592 Sure! You should join our discord group. Link in the description and we can message privately there. Have another guy who owns an F35 and is one of the last forum guys for it!
I could be wrong but that RGB sensor that they made is what Blackmagic replicated with the 12K. which makes sense because Grant kept reiterating that the camera was created for high end work especially work related to VFX
I'll try to find some for future episodes! Some are kind of hard to find good examples. But this video is a bit hard because going into the F35 which is similar for the next episode so more technical details in that one!
I always imagine theres must be a garage somewhere full of this cameras, probably still in working conditions. Even if they are old and kinda "outdated" it be cool if they would offer them still for cheap, imagine some film students without much of a budged being able to use one of these without breaking the bank, we could at least get some interesthing looking stuff our of it even tho it probably wont make them much money.
Hey! Check out my channel. I’m one of those ppl on a budget that was able to make content with it. As Mac said, it’s hard to get replacement parts. Plus, Panavision techs are instructed to beat the equipment with hammers before decommissioning them.
I did post for a pilot shot on the Genesis, while the image was impressive, the workflow built around this camera was very complicated, further there were bugs such as digital artifacts caused by poor attachment of the deck to the body. Not any easy system to work with.
Yep! Though I think it eventually was converted but that information is a bit iffy. Hard camera to research. But yeah, even the F900 for Star Wars was on tape early on. Though not for long
@@FrameVoyager Tape seems the most logical. I mean we're talking the late 1990s and early 2000s. We were still coming off of Zip Drives back then! And we recorded all video on set to tape as well. Our Video Assist rigs were all video8 and only in the early 2000s did it start to go digital, so putting a tape drive makes sense for that era. And designing it like a mag seems comical today but it really shows the design think in this era when the industry was moving from film into digital, and that Panavision was trying to give camera crews similar workflows to what they've been used to. I'm enjoying this Abandoned Camera series!
There's video of the making of Attack of the Clones with the camera assisting showing a box of tapes shot for the day. Personally, I hated the idea of shooting on tape no matter how good it looked. It just seemed much more 'delicate' and prone to damage when compared to film (or today's solid state cards). Good riddance to tape. I have not yet said the same to film.
@@DyenamicFilms Yep! Showed that clip in the last video I did. Funny because you can't really tell how much of what they are saying is just a marketing ploy haha
It recorded to tape using a Sony SRW-1 deck that could be mounted to the top or back. Eventually they released a digital mag for it, which was really just a bunch of CF cards inside a custom housing. Apparently if a digital mag went down they could open it up and pull the individual cards until they found the bad one then transfer what footage was usable (thankfully I never experienced that). When using the tape deck on the camera you maxed out around 30fps if I remember correctly (I could be remembering the F35). To get 60FPS you had to connect the deck to an SRPC-1, aka "the video toaster". It was about the size of the recorder but a bit lighter. You'd then connect the camera body to the toaster/deck stack with dual link HDSDI. It made high speed Steadicam a real pain. I believe you could do highspeed straight to the digital mag though. I've done movies with the Genesis and Sony F35. They probably still rent both if someone is really set on that camera for some reason but it's been a while since I've seen one on the prep floor. Eventually there won't be any spare parts and they will all go nonfunctional but I doubt that has happened quite yet. @Frame Voyager I'd be curious to see a video on Panavision's Elaine camera.
As I am am really into cameras I love seeing this series so far and what has came and went (or never happened at all) with all things Cinema Camera related. Are you going to do videos on these (If not could you?): Digital Dolex D16 and Lytro Cinema Camera. I am also wondering if Panasonic is abonding their cinema cameras like Varicam line and EVA-1? Their last Varicam was the LT and Pure released in 2016 and camera tech has came a long way since then and since they started making the S series full frame cameras with the L-Mount alliance of Leica, Sigma and Panasonic, and brought out newer cameras like the BGH1 BSH1, GH5 II and GH6 these cameras can do more practically what the Varicams could do, but in a much smaller DSLM or box camera form factor. With the features these cameras have, they cand do a good of a job as cinema cameras, especially with features like Anamorphic with de-squeeze, 12-bit RAW output, ProRes internal, higher dynamic range in V-Log in their full frame cameras and GH5s, GH5 II, BGH1 and GH6.
I loved the scene where they took the camera out of the cases. I just shot on the DXL a couple months back and we used those exact same flight cases just recycled it looked like!
“Evil” on Paramount Plus is shot on the DXL2 and the camera has great color science and good latitude. Another show show on Panavision DXL2 is “Loot” on Apple TV Plus.
@@HPX500 In the DXL2 portion of Panavision's website, under "Shot on DXL", in the "see more credits" section, Loot is listed as one of the shows shot on the Panavision camera.
@@walmartpimp2 The "see more credits" section isn't just shows shot on DXL, it's all the recent credits Panavision wants to showcase. There are a few other shows I've worked on that are on that list that were definitely not DXL.
@@HPX500 I wasn't trying to call you out or anything, I was just letting you know why I thought what I thought. Anyways have you worked with the Red V-Raptor yet?
I remember when the Genesis was "da shit": everyone in my neck of the woods wanted to use it, very few did. At that time, it was the most advanced digital cinema camera in world and the first one EVER to use a single chip the size of a S35 frame (what a S35 frame actually is can be debated, but that's another story). The images it produced were STUNNING for its day: "Scary Movie 4" (not exactly the most artistic movie ever produced, but still a Hollywood picture nonetheless), the first film shot on the Genesis to be released, looked just like its celluloid-originated predecessors. That was unheard of in a time when digital capture was notorious for yielding very "digital" images (a few exceptions did exist back then, but they were just that: exceptions). The issues with playback and other glitches were notorious to people in the camera business\department but I find it hilarious that David Fincher was so critical of it: his beloved Red One was cumbersome and heavy too (to those who say "duuuuuh, it was only 10 pounds!!!": that was the weight of the body alone, with no batteries, lenses, recording drives, and all the other filming paraphernalia - an operational kit was heavy AF). Also, the Red One came with a HUGE amount of performance issues, including the bad habits of a. randomly shutting down (it had very little tolerance for both high and low environmental temperatures and humidity) b. generating corrupted files that couldn't be salvaged I personally witnessed the slightly-improved Red One MX doing those very things on different shoots - including a super-expensive automotive production for Ferrari. I still remember the face of the main producer\adv company owner when they tried to playback the "good" take of a very intricate dolly shot that took half-a-day (on a 4-days schedule) to film and they discovered that the file was corrupted. The guy faced suddenly turned crimson, making him the real "red one". As of a couple of years ago, Red cameras still recorded the random corrupted file (the latest models are probably more reliable because they switched to CFexpress cards). Ironically, Panavision's only real camera now is the DXL2, which is a pimped Red Monstro in a custom body with all the Panavision-patented gizmos (including their own OLPFs) built-in.
Back in the day, one could not buy a Panavision camera, it was only on lease. The lenses were only ever on loan. Some of those lenses from decades past were more valuable than new ones.
Yeah... probably not any time soon as the big corporations and military will keep it for them for a while... Which is probably why the Lytro accessibility disappeared for the Public. Cuz we can't have nice things :(
I never liked the Genesis. I can't put it in words but it never clicked with me I've always prefered the Sony F23 and F35 (and SRW9000 and SRW9000PL... Man what a ride that was ! XD)
@@FrameVoyager Yep, I know. Can't wait for next week. :) I hope you'll also cover the F65 cause this one was wild ! (20MP sensor, so basically 6K-ish BUT not a traditionnal Bayer Pattern, which allows it to make great 4K and even 8K raw 🤯)
😳 Here’s the 👉 REAL STORY that nobody is talking about. You’ll never guess who owns all of these camera companies today. Darth Vader. After Vader found out that his likeness was used without his permission on a hidden camera show called Star Wars, he started buying camera companies in Hollywood. Pretty much everyone works for Vader now. Honey I Shrunk the Kids? Vader’s studio. The Goonies? Vader stole the idea from an intern. After public interest in Darth Vader started fading, Vader started actually starring in his own films that he wrote without the help of George Lucas which is why the Star Wars franchise hasn’t been doing so well. The only person to remain independent from all of these mergers and buyouts is George Lucas. Now you know the real story.
To be honest, i prefer the look of the Panasonic Genesis, Sony CineAlta and eve the RedOne over ANYTHING shot with the Arri Alexa..... because my god but everything shot with the Arri Alexa i have ever seen so far, looks mega dull and boring. Somehow the Image Sensor and signal processing of the Alexa is not able to render an accurate and cinematic eye-pleasing picture. Like... AT ALL. No matter what lense is attached to it. The Panavision Genesis actually has soul in the picture. "Superman Returns" is absolutely gorgeous. And more beautiful than "Blade Runner 2049", even though i prefer "Blade Runner 2049" as a movie. But the image of the Alexa just doesn't do it. It reminds me a little too much of the equally kinda boring looking Thompson Viper.
Interesting 🤔 I've heard this a lot lately. Tbh, doing this series has kind of shown me that camera brands and tech don't matter. Really comes down to what cameras can do and the look they put out. Wish I could test all of these!
@@FrameVoyager Same same. Sadly i don't own any C-Mount prime lenses :P. Years ago when the whole digital Cine-camera revolution really started to become a thing i followed a lot of tech news and looking out for new movie releases that were shot with these new cameras since i was curious how it was used and how much that difference was visible compared to 35mm film. Then i really started to appreciate digital movie cameras for their own look. And the more popular the Arri Alexa became, the more i realized how much tech specs on the paper really don't matter at all if the technology simply lacks a certain character. In contrast when you look back at movies like "Collateral" or "Public Enemies" you have a certain video look with that interlaced-ish look but it looks interesting. Even low-res DV footage blown up to 35mm like in "Festen / The Celebration (Dogme #1)" looks absolutely gorgeous and interesting and reminds me a lot of Super 8 and 16mm but often doesn't look digital beause even at low resolution, the image sensor of the camera delivered a cinematic picture that suits the aesthetical need for the movie. I really miss that in todays Arri Alexa productions. Not saying it has to look low-ress or gritty but why do older digital cine cameras used in movie productions have the more interesting picture? I really don't know and cannot really point the finger at it.
I’ll tell ya… it was the natural disaster in Japan that destroyed the factory that made the tape stock for the camera. It could of happened to any camera or company. It’s a shame it happened to this camera. It’s amazing that a company like Panavision is still around to tell the tale.
By then the digital mags was readily available, at least in LA. I did a movie with the Genesis in 08 and our DIT just did a straight digital transfer from the mags to hard drives. If you couldn't afford a DIT back then you were paying $100 for an SR tape that had most likely been used at least once already. Still cheaper than a DIT though, depending on how much you were shooting.
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THANKS FOR ALL THE SUPPORT ON THIS SERIES! Just a reminder that though we research these videos as thoroughly as we can, we will miss some details in some of the complex stories that are only available now through old videos and archived webpages. So please let us know if we miss anything and we will be sure to amend it here in the comments!
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I worked on a film in Australia called TRIANGLE (2009) and we shot Genesis during the mid 2008 shoot. I was the data wrangler or digital truck loader as we were calling it back then before DITs were a thing. I had just come off a feature that shot RED ONE and so was used to the data process with a laptop and hard drives, but suddenly I jumped onto this film on Genesis and they were shooting the solid state recorders (SSR). However it turned out that they were only shooting the SSR to reduce the weight of the camera for steadicam which the film shot a bunch with. My job was to take the SSR, dock it and dual SDI to two daisy chained HDCAM SR tape decks to record the contents of the SSR onto a master and backup tape and then once I was sure that the mastering was complete - wips the SSR so it could be used right away, To make matters worse, the dual SDI would sometimes have frame dropouts so I'd need to watch like a dang hawk that the rushes had been transferred with no interruption to the video. It's an absolute miracle I got through that job. Bizarre.
I just watched that film actually. Really enjoyed the look but that sounds like a nightmare
@@ramirezs316 It certainly was hahah constantly on edge every day.
Wow what a workflow! That bit about having to watch the frame for any dropouts at all would’ve had me on edge! Did you get a little private tent so nobody could bother you?
@@justforfunvideohobby More like my own private table. Thats about it. lol. And yep... on edge is a good way to put it. I was so sure I'd screw up without realizing it - but never got that call from the assistant editor. Phew!
David Fincher´s take on it was really funny. He has a long relationship with RED cameras, loves digital cinema and is not afraid of trying new ways of doing things (like adopting Adobe Premiere to edit his films).
Yeah Fincher used a Thompson Viper for "Zodiac" and apart from it being matted a little too much (seriosly, it would have looked batter opened to 1,85:1) it still looked pretty good. Just not really a lot of shallow Depth but maybe that was also a deliberate choice.
The issue that Panavision ran into with their lenses could have been this: 3CCD cameras use a prism splitter system to separate Red, Green and Blue. This results in the three image sensors to be in different planes (at slightly different back focal lengths). This requires lenses for 3CCD cameras to be more or less image-telecentric, which is a severe constraint for lens design. Film meanwhile cares very little about this - far less than even single sensor cameras, so it's basically not a consideration at all for lenses designed for film.
Yep! There was no room for that backend element. And even when they did get it to work there was loss in quality. A bit of speculation on whether it was really their fault but kind of an odd thing for Lucas to go a different direction. Kind of interesting
The lenses were made specifically for the 2/3rds inch sensors and were at the time the highest resolution lenses as the photo sites of a sensor that size were much smaller. A real technical achievement.
Yes collimating lenses for film cameras is different for digital; but almost exactly the opposite way you mentioned. FILM has the color at three different depths where as the single chip sensor has each of the colors at the same plane. Yes there could be “defects” in the 3CCD prism; but would be caught at the service level and fixed before sending to the prep floor for the client.
@@grgzlsk The different colour layers of film are at different depths, but only by a few microns, so non-telecentric rays aren't affected much more than telecentric ones. In a single chip sensor though the rays exiting the lens will then normally have to pass through the optical low-pass filter, then the microlens above each photosite. So non-telecentric rays can react very differently to telecentric ones. This often most notable in the corners where vignettes can occur.
Hence why many modern lenses are designed to be telecentric, so that they play nice with digital cameras. At Panavision, when testing for some of their lenses, they actually put an extra piece of glass inside the lens projector to simulate the effect of the OLPF.
@@FrameVoyager I have a question… I and my friend were arguing about who has the right to say so when it comes to actors and actress. can Film distributors say to a producer/ director, that they don’t want this actor or actress in the movie?
@@aliquran7535 I'm sure they can! But I'm sure the director might quit 😅
I appreciated this upload much more than the f900 video, more technical detail better history, thank you for your hard work
Appreciate it! Yeah, some of them are really hard to find information on or their specs run together with other cameras in the series. Glad you liked it!
I did some miniature compositing on Genesis footage. I can agree that VFX work was very easy on this footage; pulling keys etc. Its better today but at the time most VFX work had artifacts when pulling fine keys that looked like compression or mpeg artifacts. I believe the Genesis was also about $250K for the rental houses but was never offered for purchase... honestly purchasing cameras was a byproduct of the Red One.
Interesting! And yeah I figured it had to be around that price point since the F35 cost that much
Arri has always sold their gear.
@@stevenhightop2518 cant speak to that but rental was more common then.
@@cliffberry - Arri sold their camera to anyone. Panavision was a rental only system, and you have to rent from Panavision. Arri sold to other rental houses, and schools, and DP owner / operators and commercial production house etc.
I was in Hollywood when the Genesis was the buzz. I remember listening to a cinematographer talking his impressions on the camera.
Not sure I agree with your conclusion: Panavision did develop a new digital camera years later (DXL and DXL2), which definitely captured it's niche. And the rental-only model with upgrades and customization is going stronger than ever in my opinion, with Arri having joined in on it with the Alexa 65, Alexa B+W and a lot of very specialized cameras for specific projects like the SXT M and handcrank D21. And these days it's all in the optics with Arri and Panavision battling it out with a lot of rental exclusive series and customization for each movie.
That's fair! Maybe the industry has settled down some now? But RED definitely shook up the camera rental market during that time period.
@@FrameVoyager Yeah, 00s-early 10s were wild times, but these days the generational improvements are tiny and the market has largely settled. The 4k mandate cost Arri some Marketshare to RED for some time, but the Sony Venice really made it tough for RED. These days RED really is far away from Arri and Sony's Marketshare at the high-end. I feel like there hasn't been any real interest in the Komodo and V-Raptor and the V-Raptor XL just drowned in the Alexa 35 hype.
DXL is just a RED monstro Ranger with an MDR built in, and colour science made by a post house.
The DXL1 was a huge flop as well, I believe genesis is why they had to buy and off the shelf camera to do their next venture
@ DXL came before the Ranger. RED took Panavision’s idea and ran with it to a (slightly) mass market. There are quite a few reasons the DXL has not seen that much success but it being “off the rack” is not necessarily one.
@@theyou0345 Ranger was already in development by then. It wasn't a "hen/egg" situation.
The DXL was littered with faults. Season 2 of "13 reasons why" used it for their first episode because the DP wanted it. It ended up being a massive headache and the DP got fired, and the episode had to be reshot.
The DXL2 however, is amazing, and a totally different animal. But no, the original DXL is just a weapon sensor in a different suit.
Great video! Love this series! A big part of the early success of Panavision was their development of anamorphic lenses that eliminated the artifact called anamorphic mumps that was most prominent on the Cinemascope Anamorphic lenses. This is why The Robe, How to Marry a Millionaire and other Cinemascope films did not have closeups.
👀 fascinating! Yeah, want to eventually circle back to some topics in some of these videos eventually and do some deeper dives
It’s honestly wild that nobody has posted more TH-cam videos shot on Genesis since this video came out. It appears mine are the last for now. Great work
I think this camera actually lived out the life that was intended for it. Its super high end niche, and that's not a bad thing. It was a crucial step taken to get where we are now. I would say "abandoned" is a strong word. But Im really just being hyperbolic. I love this series and applaud you work. I fear this contribution to our history will never find adequate monetary compensation, so Ill attempt to do it spiritually; "your the man dude"
There was no mention of the visual flaws with the chips on SUPERMAN RETURNS, which required hundreds of thousands of dollars of digital fixes, which I believe Panavision had to pay for. It was a minor scandal in the VFX department, but some technicians made a lot of money on it. I think it's fair to say the camera tanked because it couldn't keep up with newer, better digital cinema cameras from Arri and Sony (and eventually Red).
Hmmmm... That's very interesting! I went through as much as I could find on the Superman Returns movie and didn't come across this, otherwise I would have had it in the video!
Thanks for the information though! Considering going back at some point and doing a follow up video for this series adding in the extra information I missed. Hard to find the information online or who to actually talk to about these cameras but since starting the series have had a lot more sources come forward to help add in some information!
I've watched a few of these. The industry appears savage as hell
You are amazing for making all of these! Ikonoscope next?!
haha appreciate it! And that one is definitely coming! I've got the Sony Cinealta F35 the twin to the Genesis coming next week, then the Fran 8K, and then I might do the Ikonoscope because everyone has been asking for it haha
@@FrameVoyager awesome I hope the si-2k and dalsa are on that list too!
I own a Blackmagic digital camera and it is fine. But I come from the film camera world and my last camera was a Nikon F2 from 45 years ago. One can use a 12K digital camera and output to several formats, but film holds the image for decades and can be scanned again to new formats. Directors love this idea. Just imagine that a movie like 2001 a Space Odyssey being captured on 720p, 8bit, 4:2:0. Thank God they still make film.
If society ever stops making film I feel like we will have failed
I hope Kodak can one day make their trade secrets available on how they made all these stocks
As a film guy, before Alexa, I really enjoyed working with the genesis. Near the end we used the convergent design odyssey as the recorder, which cut down a ton of weight
Excellent choice. The 7q is still popular today. Do you have any clips you would be willing to post on TH-cam from the Genesis? Maybe some behind the scenes stories or footage/photos?
I think one of the really interesting things about the Genesis is how often it was used for sort of hybrid films. Where the day stuff would be shot on film and the night stuff would be shot on Genesis. An example of this would be Tony Scott's Deja Vu, another interesting hybrid film is State of Play which used Anamorphic 35 for the journalism scenes, and Genesis with spherical lenses for the political scenes. I can't remember of Fincher ever actually shot with the Genesis camera, I think he may have shot a commercial with the F35 though and I know that some of Benjamin Button was shot on the F23.
If Fincher ever shot on Genesis it was a commercial or short or something. Zodiac and Benjamin Button were Thomson VIPER with some F23 on the latter and everything after has been the latest flavor of RED.
@@seangentry2943 I think Zodiac is entirely Viper with the exception of slow motion shots which were done on 35mm.
@@CraigBickerstaff I was affirming what you said about Benjamen Button, sorry if I worded it poorly. Zodiac was indeed all VIPER and S35.
Not being able to play the footage back seems like a big issue. Kinda negates one of the biggest advantages of the digital medium.
For real! I think this might have been fixed later on but I couldn't find any evidence of it
They later made a solid state version of the mag
I've used it, you can do playback like you can with sd cards and other solid state media. Still big and heavy but less so.
It was also terrifying because there's like a dozen pins and you're trying not to bend any of them
@@JonesFred070 that sound terrifying 😅😅😅😅
Did it have a videotap then?
It had SDI out. It's a digital camera
I love to shoot with the panavision genesis one day soon. I believe should make a new version of it. A genesis 2.0! It'll look the same, but with a few changes. I actually made an Instagram post about the camera & the new vision of it recently. Again, I love to shoot/experiment with the genesis camera one day soon.
it was weird with the small resolution. 1920x1080 was standard hd at the time. but with film like dynamic range that was enough.
Exactly. I can’t remember where I read it, but basically 35mm film is something between 720 and 1080 after all the dupes so the Genesis is great
@@justforfunvideohobby I don't know but, I think 8mm is basically 1080 resolution but distortions limit it's ability to render clarity. meanwhile 35mm is closer to 4K however the blooms and distortions well you get the idea. it doesn't matter the line resolution because it's a series of overlapping circular blooms. it's analog and you can't really accurately quantify it digitally as a result.
That sequence with Fincher from Side by Side is so classic 🤣
It really is 😂
TRully enjoying these docu mini series ... well produced, super interesting , and overall well done.. bravo
I can see these shorts turning into a Netflix special someday. There is just so much story to tell.
It would be awesome to do an incredibly in depth look at the rise of digital cameras. Would love to get interviews set up for all of these, hard to access these people lol
@@FrameVoyager This series could be your pitch to Netflix
@@iAnton3000 🤔 very true
@@iAnton3000 Yea because it would show everybody that the Netflix approved camera list is no joke :)
Would that pull much of an audience? Digital cameras are great but they don't murder people. How would you convince people to watch?
Looking at this camera people should not even think about Cube camera being unusable 😂
If you listen to the commentary on Superbad, they talk shit about this camera (the actors Seth Rogen, etc) pretty funny
Make a video on the sony 65
I find it kinda amazing that you get to the question of why was the Genesis abandoned and then completely ignore the Sony F35 until it’s time to tease it for the next video. Try to imagine how Panavision execs felt when Sony unveiled the F35.
🤫 no spoilers 😩
And seriously, right? I feel like they knew though
We can talk privately if you’d like.
@@mitchgross592 oh I'm just joking 😂 feel free to comment!
Sure, but you can always feel free to reach out if you want the inside track on some stuff. I have intimate knowledge on a lot of these cameras & their history behind the scenes.
@@mitchgross592 Sure! You should join our discord group. Link in the description and we can message privately there. Have another guy who owns an F35 and is one of the last forum guys for it!
Cool series! Can't wait for next one! )
Appreciate it! 7 in so far and like 20 more to go haha
I could be wrong but that RGB sensor that they made is what Blackmagic replicated with the 12K. which makes sense because Grant kept reiterating that the camera was created for high end work especially work related to VFX
Makes sense sinc 3CCD video cameras were commonly already used earlier for VFW work. Especially chroma key shots.
Would love to have seen more on the technical specs and images examples if possible for this series.
I'll try to find some for future episodes! Some are kind of hard to find good examples. But this video is a bit hard because going into the F35 which is similar for the next episode so more technical details in that one!
I always imagine theres must be a garage somewhere full of this cameras, probably still in working conditions.
Even if they are old and kinda "outdated" it be cool if they would offer them still for cheap, imagine some film students without much of a budged being able to use one of these without breaking the bank, we could at least get some interesthing looking stuff our of it even tho it probably wont make them much money.
I've heard from a bunch of people at universities that have these cameras around. 😂
Problem is getting parts if they break
Hey! Check out my channel. I’m one of those ppl on a budget that was able to make content with it. As Mac said, it’s hard to get replacement parts. Plus, Panavision techs are instructed to beat the equipment with hammers before decommissioning them.
I did post for a pilot shot on the Genesis, while the image was impressive, the workflow built around this camera was very complicated, further there were bugs such as digital artifacts caused by poor attachment of the deck to the body. Not any easy system to work with.
Yet another great vid😃
Appreciate it!
I was looking forward to this one... Did I understand correctly, that it recorded on tape? Were cinema cameras recording on tape normal at this time?
Yep! Though I think it eventually was converted but that information is a bit iffy. Hard camera to research. But yeah, even the F900 for Star Wars was on tape early on. Though not for long
@@FrameVoyager Tape seems the most logical. I mean we're talking the late 1990s and early 2000s. We were still coming off of Zip Drives back then! And we recorded all video on set to tape as well. Our Video Assist rigs were all video8 and only in the early 2000s did it start to go digital, so putting a tape drive makes sense for that era. And designing it like a mag seems comical today but it really shows the design think in this era when the industry was moving from film into digital, and that Panavision was trying to give camera crews similar workflows to what they've been used to. I'm enjoying this Abandoned Camera series!
There's video of the making of Attack of the Clones with the camera assisting showing a box of tapes shot for the day. Personally, I hated the idea of shooting on tape no matter how good it looked. It just seemed much more 'delicate' and prone to damage when compared to film (or today's solid state cards). Good riddance to tape. I have not yet said the same to film.
@@DyenamicFilms Yep! Showed that clip in the last video I did. Funny because you can't really tell how much of what they are saying is just a marketing ploy haha
It recorded to tape using a Sony SRW-1 deck that could be mounted to the top or back. Eventually they released a digital mag for it, which was really just a bunch of CF cards inside a custom housing. Apparently if a digital mag went down they could open it up and pull the individual cards until they found the bad one then transfer what footage was usable (thankfully I never experienced that).
When using the tape deck on the camera you maxed out around 30fps if I remember correctly (I could be remembering the F35). To get 60FPS you had to connect the deck to an SRPC-1, aka "the video toaster". It was about the size of the recorder but a bit lighter. You'd then connect the camera body to the toaster/deck stack with dual link HDSDI. It made high speed Steadicam a real pain. I believe you could do highspeed straight to the digital mag though.
I've done movies with the Genesis and Sony F35. They probably still rent both if someone is really set on that camera for some reason but it's been a while since I've seen one on the prep floor. Eventually there won't be any spare parts and they will all go nonfunctional but I doubt that has happened quite yet.
@Frame Voyager I'd be curious to see a video on Panavision's Elaine camera.
6:26 As much as I love David Fincher and most of his work, he can sometimes say some pretty stupid things.
😂
As I am am really into cameras I love seeing this series so far and what has came and went (or never happened at all) with all things Cinema Camera related. Are you going to do videos on these (If not could you?): Digital Dolex D16 and Lytro Cinema Camera.
I am also wondering if Panasonic is abonding their cinema cameras like Varicam line and EVA-1? Their last Varicam was the LT and Pure released in 2016 and camera tech has came a long way since then and since they started making the S series full frame cameras with the L-Mount alliance of Leica, Sigma and Panasonic, and brought out newer cameras like the BGH1 BSH1, GH5 II and GH6 these cameras can do more practically what the Varicams could do, but in a much smaller DSLM or box camera form factor.
With the features these cameras have, they cand do a good of a job as cinema cameras, especially with features like Anamorphic with de-squeeze, 12-bit RAW output, ProRes internal, higher dynamic range in V-Log in their full frame cameras and GH5s, GH5 II, BGH1 and GH6.
I love this show!
Appreciate it!
I loved the scene where they took the camera out of the cases. I just shot on the DXL a couple months back and we used those exact same flight cases just recycled it looked like!
Thomson Viper please! (Fricken love these videos)
“Evil” on Paramount Plus is shot on the DXL2 and the camera has great color science and good latitude. Another show show on Panavision DXL2 is “Loot” on Apple TV Plus.
Love that show! Didn't know they were filming it with Panavisions camera though 🤔 that show is shot very well. Love the look
I worked on Loot. We shot everything but the drone footage on Arri MiniLFs with Panavision lenses.
@@HPX500 In the DXL2 portion of Panavision's website, under "Shot on DXL", in the "see more credits" section, Loot is listed as one of the shows shot on the Panavision camera.
@@walmartpimp2 The "see more credits" section isn't just shows shot on DXL, it's all the recent credits Panavision wants to showcase. There are a few other shows I've worked on that are on that list that were definitely not DXL.
@@HPX500 I wasn't trying to call you out or anything, I was just letting you know why I thought what I thought. Anyways have you worked with the Red V-Raptor yet?
You show do a video on the Thomson Grass Valley Viper Filmstream camera!
It's on my list!.
do the digital Thomson Viper FilmStream Camera next
It's coming!
Really cool series. Looking forward to the Sony F35 episode, especially since I owe one 😄
😅😅😅 I'll try to be extra careful on the specifics then
@@FrameVoyager hahaha 😂 don't worry
Another entertaining video!
Appreciate it!
You should do an Abandoned video on the Canon Cinema C700 series.
I remember when the Genesis was "da shit": everyone in my neck of the woods wanted to use it, very few did. At that time, it was the most advanced digital cinema camera in world and the first one EVER to use a single chip the size of a S35 frame (what a S35 frame actually is can be debated, but that's another story). The images it produced were STUNNING for its day: "Scary Movie 4" (not exactly the most artistic movie ever produced, but still a Hollywood picture nonetheless), the first film shot on the Genesis to be released, looked just like its celluloid-originated predecessors. That was unheard of in a time when digital capture was notorious for yielding very "digital" images (a few exceptions did exist back then, but they were just that: exceptions). The issues with playback and other glitches were notorious to people in the camera business\department but I find it hilarious that David Fincher was so critical of it: his beloved Red One was cumbersome and heavy too (to those who say "duuuuuh, it was only 10 pounds!!!": that was the weight of the body alone, with no batteries, lenses, recording drives, and all the other filming paraphernalia - an operational kit was heavy AF). Also, the Red One came with a HUGE amount of performance issues, including the bad habits of
a. randomly shutting down (it had very little tolerance for both high and low environmental temperatures and humidity)
b. generating corrupted files that couldn't be salvaged
I personally witnessed the slightly-improved Red One MX doing those very things on different shoots - including a super-expensive automotive production for Ferrari. I still remember the face of the main producer\adv company owner when they tried to playback the "good" take of a very intricate dolly shot that took half-a-day (on a 4-days schedule) to film and they discovered that the file was corrupted. The guy faced suddenly turned crimson, making him the real "red one". As of a couple of years ago, Red cameras still recorded the random corrupted file (the latest models are probably more reliable because they switched to CFexpress cards).
Ironically, Panavision's only real camera now is the DXL2, which is a pimped Red Monstro in a custom body with all the Panavision-patented gizmos (including their own OLPFs) built-in.
I wonder why my mind has gone to the scene with the iron, which initially seems like a space ship landing, in The Last Jedi...
I love this channel!
Back in the day, one could not buy a Panavision camera, it was only on lease. The lenses were only ever on loan. Some of those lenses from decades past were more valuable than new ones.
It’s still the same business model. I’ve been lucky enough to own a decommissioned Genesis body and SRW tape recorder
We've all seen that Panavision logo at the end of a film.
Yep! Still love me some Panavision though
@@FrameVoyager It ’s beautiful. excellent camera!
Love these series!
I wonder when we see Lytro cinie kit the lost future death by google aqusiton.
😏
Yeah... probably not any time soon as the big corporations and military will keep it for them for a while... Which is probably why the Lytro accessibility disappeared for the Public. Cuz we can't have nice things :(
I thought Apocolypto was the Flagship movie for this camera.
"Growing lack" = grown't
(the word you were looking for is "shrinking")
😏
I am wondering how they able shot Flying shots in Fly boy with this big heavy camera.
maybe they had GoPro for the flying shots. lol
Haha that's a good question 😂
Silicone imaging si-2k please 🙏🙏
It's on the list! That one is a fascinating story since it beat out Christopher Nolan's movie for awards
My Canon t3 was abandoned when I got a7s
hahaha Sounds like me! Went from a T6i to the A7s back in the day lol
I would never wanna go back to APS-C either when digital full format is so much more available these days.
Shout out to SGU
8:27 it's a Dial home Device -- PROOF!
I never liked the Genesis. I can't put it in words but it never clicked with me I've always prefered the Sony F23 and F35 (and SRW9000 and SRW9000PL... Man what a ride that was ! XD)
Yeah, the F35 was essentially a better Genesis camera. Covering that camera next week!
@@FrameVoyager Yep, I know. Can't wait for next week. :)
I hope you'll also cover the F65 cause this one was wild ! (20MP sensor, so basically 6K-ish BUT not a traditionnal Bayer Pattern, which allows it to make great 4K and even 8K raw 🤯)
Who is the Guy at 2:21 ?
This camera look like Sony F35
Or does the Sony F35 look like the Panavision Genesis 👀
😳 Here’s the 👉 REAL STORY that nobody is talking about. You’ll never guess who owns all of these camera companies today. Darth Vader. After Vader found out that his likeness was used without his permission on a hidden camera show called Star Wars, he started buying camera companies in Hollywood. Pretty much everyone works for Vader now. Honey I Shrunk the Kids? Vader’s studio. The Goonies? Vader stole the idea from an intern. After public interest in Darth Vader started fading, Vader started actually starring in his own films that he wrote without the help of George Lucas which is why the Star Wars franchise hasn’t been doing so well. The only person to remain independent from all of these mergers and buyouts is George Lucas. Now you know the real story.
Shhhhh! Don't say it to loud they'll come after you too.
To be honest, i prefer the look of the Panasonic Genesis, Sony CineAlta and eve the RedOne over ANYTHING shot with the Arri Alexa..... because my god but everything shot with the Arri Alexa i have ever seen so far, looks mega dull and boring. Somehow the Image Sensor and signal processing of the Alexa is not able to render an accurate and cinematic eye-pleasing picture. Like... AT ALL. No matter what lense is attached to it. The Panavision Genesis actually has soul in the picture. "Superman Returns" is absolutely gorgeous. And more beautiful than "Blade Runner 2049", even though i prefer "Blade Runner 2049" as a movie. But the image of the Alexa just doesn't do it. It reminds me a little too much of the equally kinda boring looking Thompson Viper.
Interesting 🤔 I've heard this a lot lately. Tbh, doing this series has kind of shown me that camera brands and tech don't matter. Really comes down to what cameras can do and the look they put out. Wish I could test all of these!
@@FrameVoyager Same same. Sadly i don't own any C-Mount prime lenses :P. Years ago when the whole digital Cine-camera revolution really started to become a thing i followed a lot of tech news and looking out for new movie releases that were shot with these new cameras since i was curious how it was used and how much that difference was visible compared to 35mm film. Then i really started to appreciate digital movie cameras for their own look. And the more popular the Arri Alexa became, the more i realized how much tech specs on the paper really don't matter at all if the technology simply lacks a certain character. In contrast when you look back at movies like "Collateral" or "Public Enemies" you have a certain video look with that interlaced-ish look but it looks interesting. Even low-res DV footage blown up to 35mm like in "Festen / The Celebration (Dogme #1)" looks absolutely gorgeous and interesting and reminds me a lot of Super 8 and 16mm but often doesn't look digital beause even at low resolution, the image sensor of the camera delivered a cinematic picture that suits the aesthetical need for the movie. I really miss that in todays Arri Alexa productions. Not saying it has to look low-ress or gritty but why do older digital cine cameras used in movie productions have the more interesting picture? I really don't know and cannot really point the finger at it.
it was just a rehoused and modified Sony F35 ... with a different color science
Actually, the F35 was more of a Sony Branded Genesis. This camera came before the F35, it came before the F23 as well.
Yep! Came a few years after the Genesis and died off around the same time 😅
Hate to tell ya but 1080p is not even close to half of 5.7K
😅
See my channel for this camera’s last hurrah. I made some great visuals with it. Definitely my favorite camera body ever made
👀 I will!
I’ll tell ya… it was the natural disaster in Japan that destroyed the factory that made the tape stock for the camera.
It could of happened to any camera or company.
It’s a shame it happened to this camera.
It’s amazing that a company like Panavision is still around to tell the tale.
🤔 huh, did not know that. That makes sense though
I was an intern at the Florida branch in 2008. Wild times for that company
huh? The Genesis recorded to HDCAM SR tapes? I thought that was only an option and not a requirement.
@@KRAFTWERK2K6 I believe at first it was. And of course like panavision usually did they upgraded it overtime.
By then the digital mags was readily available, at least in LA. I did a movie with the Genesis in 08 and our DIT just did a straight digital transfer from the mags to hard drives. If you couldn't afford a DIT back then you were paying $100 for an SR tape that had most likely been used at least once already. Still cheaper than a DIT though, depending on how much you were shooting.
Attack of clones? lmao
😉
sony f35!
It's coming this Friday!