I love the harder rubber on the rand of Origin VS - seems like a great way to prolong lifespan of the shoe for many beginner and intermediate climbers climbing mostly indoors.
I was kinda hoping for an Instinct VS rework, inspired by the new Instinct S, but I guess I'll stock up on the current models for a while longer. Thanks for the great presentation per usual, Rob!
I keep expecting this to come at some point too. I love the Instinct VS and VSR, but there's no denying that the Instinct S makes them both look pretty old school. It can only be a matter of time though. I suspect a major part of the reason it's taking time is because of how important they are within the Scarpa range. If you are going to change them, you'd want to be sure it's an actual improvement. Certainly not something you'd want to mess up!!
@@ukclimbingofficial Definitely! Besides the LS Solution, it's pretty much THE bouldering/sport shoe (Hiangle doesn't count with it's constant reiteration :P). I wonder if they might go in a similar direction with that as LS has, i.e. offer the legacy option and the newer 'Comp' model at the same time. Climbers are a traditionalist bunch, they don't like too much change. One thing I do worry about with Scarpa shoes moving forward is resoleability. The Instinct line has a relatively simple design where the rand is completely seperate from the tensioning system, making it very easy to replace entirely by the authorized resolers. The design of the Instinct S is much more complex, and I worry resolers won't be able to do anything but slap a toe cap on in case of holes.
@@the.Aruarian I've got faith that within whatever re-design they do or don't do they'll factor in re-soling, because that's something we've seen elsewhere in the range. The feedback we've received from re-solers is that Scarpa are some of the best to re-sole because they're so well built. I suspect that the Instinct S would actually be relatively straightforward to re-sole in light of this.
I think Scarpa have hit a bit of a peak over the last few years with their high end performance shoes, they had a phase of bringing a new shoe out that felt like every month but the dragos are 1 of the best indoor bouldering shoes the VSR’s are one of the best all rounders, the instinct slipper is the best board shoe, the instinct lace up is the best out door route shoe, they just seem to have all the bases covered and they’ve already got many more great shoes like the boosti, boosters, furias etc etc that I don’t know where they go from here which is why I guess they seem to be concentrating on the more beginner/casual, comfortable market right now.
Curious heel design on these? I'm always surprised when brands don't extend the heel rubber up to the colored rand. It seems a small thing, but typically makes the heel so much better and more effective at hooking.
also found the shallowness of the Origin VS heel to be peculiar, but likely means the actual tension through the heel can be moderated and fit more people better at a period where heel sensitivity and precision is not essential.
I think that's exactly it - these aren't intended to have a high tension heel due to their relatively relaxed fit. I'll be able to comment in greater detail once I've actually used a pair. There's only so much you can ascertain whilst sat in a showroom 😂
Where does the Spot sit in terms of stiffness? It's obviously going to be softer than the Vapor V, but almost everything is softer than the Vapor V. The comparison with the Vapor S would be more interesting.
That's not entirely true. The Vapour V has quite a supportive forefoot, but due to its featuring a split sole isn't overly supportive throughout the rest of the shoe. You're right though, it'll probably be a bit more like the Vapour S, although how much like it remains to be seen as we're yet to try on a pair properly.
@@ukclimbingofficial Yeah, I was referring to the forefoot of the Vapor V. I have the Vapour V and while I really like the edging ability which is just right on my home crag (concrete artificial rock), but it's really falling short on smears. An alpine climbing trip on limestone with slabs and rillenkarren really showed me the limits of the hard XS Edge rubber. This means I might have to look into getting a stickier, more versatile and maybe slightly softer shoe for regular sport climbing and the occasional harder multipitch route. Preferably something semi-agressive and semi-stiff, because I do like some support, edging power and comfort. Looking at Evolv Geshido and Five Ten Crawe, neither of which I'm going to be able to try out in person (european capital city far from any mountains with no actually good climbing stores... sigh). Or can I just get my Vaour V resoled with something more sticky (i.e. XS Grip 2) and it would work fine? Or is it simply not possible to have a stiff-ish shoe that's good at edging also be good at smearing, no matter the rubber?
Great video! Currently deciding between the Vapor V and Arpia. Looking at the video the Arpia will be my best bet for indoor bouldering, right? They are at the same price point here in The Netherlands.
Have you already tested both shoes? I need new ones. I started with the old model of the Origin. Now I wear a very old version of the veloce with the xs grip sole. So both are interesting to me. Would be great to see a review video for fitting and performance 😁
We’re due to film the Origin VS review within the next couple of weeks, which would mean it’ll be released sometime within the next month (as there’s a few things ahead of it in the queue). The Spot we featured here is now called the Arpia V and that’ll likely be a couple of months, as I’d like to use them a bit more before casting an opinion. Both have been really good though. The Origin VS is a great option for anyone starting out indoors. My impression of the Arpia V is that it’d be a really good all-rounder for intermediate sport and trad climbers. Happy to answer any questions!
It sits "around about where the Quantic and the Quantix previously sat within the Scarpa range"? The Quantic and Quantix aren't already being discontinued, are they? They're only, what 2 years old, if that?
A good question with a slightly complex answer. Judging by the latest Scarpa product map the Quantic has indeed been discontinued, but the Quantix will live on; however, it won't live on in the UK as the UK distributors aren't bringing it in. For one reason and the next it wasn't overly popular and I'm assuming that other models, including the likes of the Spot (and to an extent the Generator) have filled the same space.
@@ukclimbingofficialinteresting, there looks like a lot of overlap between the Quantic and Quantix, so discontinuing one in favour for the cheaper price point spot makes sense. However, if the quantix/c weren't popular, it's hard to imagine the spot hitting the spot. Pun intended. I feel like the "Balanced performance" range is lacking that indoor focused bouldering shoe. Something between the drago/instincts at one end and the origin vs/veloce at the other. I have the vapor V, they feel a little stiff with the full lengthen insole and lacks a good toe patch. The spot looks like the heel won't be great for hooks (but the extra height around the ankle would feel better) and still has a 3/4 insole. I've heard the veloce isn't great for heel hooks as well. I own some instinct vsr and think they're a great shoe but maybe the instinct range is perceived as too advanced for many (myself included, haha). Also, do split soles cost more to manufacture? Less material but more labour perhaps? I'm assuming a full-length sole has been used on both models to hit a price point. P.S. great vids, keep up the good content.
From what you've described, I think either the Instinct VSR, Instinct S or or perhaps even the Vapour S would be worth looking at. I certainly don't think there's a shortage of options within the Scarpa range, as it's about as comprehensive as a climbing shoe collection gets!! When it comes to split sole vs. full-length sole, I suspect the answer to which is used largely depends on how Heinz feels about its effect on the shoe's performance. It sounds like that's his primary concern whilst designing a shoe.
It is, although this is perhaps an indication of how much midsoles differ both in terms of their thickness and their shape. We'll go into more detail on it within the review.
We haven't had a chance to use them yet, but I think the Arpia - as it's now known - is a bit more basic in terms of construction when compared to the Quantix SF. I think the latter would give you more support throughout a full day of climbing, although I'll be able to qualify this more completely once I've had a chance to use them for a while.
They’ve got to be working on a new Instinct, surely?! That said, I’ve never got them to confirm or deny. It’s got to be coming though. It’s an old shoe now, but still a great shoe - it’s just that the Instinct S shows how far their design has come on since.
Climbing shoes are ridiculously priced. I can buy a pair of fairly technical, good quality boots that will last for five years for £150. Or a pair of climbing shoes with a quarter of the materials and technology that last 3 months outdoors or 8 months indoors. How do they justify that? Especially with the 3.5mm rubber
It's designed for performance. Climbing shoes undergo _far_ more short-term wear and tear than tradtional boots, and _need_ to be lightweight, softer, close-fitting, and powerful. All the features that make them good for climbing inherently reduce durability.
It's a scale thing - the more of any given shoe that's produced the cheaper that shoe will be. Raw materials will never be the expensive part of low production run products, rather the best indication of the price will probably be the amount of stitches required for the fabric upper and sole vs the volume of production. Add on to that the biggest climbing brands have factories based in Europe and not in sweatshops and the labour cost is very high. Higher end shoes also use much more complicated production methods regular shoes don't such as being made on a slip last with unusually made toe patches to avoid seams where you need the most sensitivity, while cheaper shoes will still be made on a board last.
@ctrlsaltdelete I take your point on the scaling issue, however climbing has been growing at a rate of around 8% for the past 20 years. But in the past 10 years climbing shoes have increased in price by around 100%, far out pacing inflation. With all the new climbers you would assume that the price should come down instead of increasing. Slip lasting has been around for 40 years, and equally doesn’t account for the massive price increase. Shoes factories are where they have always been and labour costs have increased at a lower rate than inflation over the past few decades. Technologies may have advanced, but I don’t notice any improvement in use between my old anasazis which were £75 15 years ago over my new scarpa and la sportiva shoes at £150. Sensitivity, support and friction remain unchanged. Taking inflation into account top end climbing shoes should be around £100.
@@ciaranoloan6199I bought my first pair of Solutions almost a decade ago now for I believe $185, and they are currently $199. As well, as someone who climbs through the specialized range of Scarpa, several of those models did not exist or were for broader categories where a given specialization did not truly exist. Modern shoes are better, but the difference in shoe x and y and z is marginal, and the difference will be even more marginal for improvements as with almost any gear. Because of this hyper specialization, you also get smaller markets for each shoe and to keep some prices reasonable other shoes have to absorb the cost a little. I do not think the price is outrageous when I look at other high performance gear, but unfortunately durability is a consideration for many which climbing shoes do not lend themselves to.
There are no parallels to be drawn between the construction quality of an old Five Ten Anasazi and a modern Scarpa shoe, because they're worlds apart. Even in their heyday, Five Ten were renowned throughout the industry for their inconsistency, both in terms of quality and sizing, and how quickly they fell apart. Using an inflation calculator a £70 shoe in 2003 would cost £120 today, which isn't far off what we're talking about here, only what you're getting is much better made. Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for a bit of nostalgia about how the Anasazi used to perform, because they definitely had some magic, but I think most of that magic was within the rubber - not the construction quality. Whilst they may have been cheap, the fact they fell apart pretty quickly made that a pretty poor investment, but people kept investing because they were the best that was available at the time.
That's a somewhat savage assessment 😂 I guess, in their defence, they're aimed at hitting a bit more of a price point, so lack the aesthetics of the more expensive shoes within the range. That said, I didn't not like them - they're just not quite as sharp as the premium models.
@@ukclimbingofficial I don’t think that there’s a direct correlation of the price point of a shoe to it’s overall aesthetic. I do actually think as climbing progresses and more and more people take up the sport then unless scarpa adapt to this the likes of Evolv could well dominate a ‘younger’ more gym going audience.
@@MF-CLIMBI've been thinking the same thing. Both La Sportiva and Scarpa don't seem to get what the inner-city boulder gym rats want... Or maybe just me, haha. I'd imagine this is becoming a huge part of the climbing shoe market. I'm not sure we should need to choose between performance and aesthetics in 2023 (or 2027, which is when the new shoes will make it down under).
@@MF-CLIMB this is true. But at least all the yellow men's versions match all my other yellow shoes. I always pair a nice garish yellow shoe with any outfit... You know what they say - from the boardroom to nights out you gotta keep the feet looking mellow with some garish yellow.
Can you tell Rob had a coffee before we filmed this?! Let us know if you've got any thoughts or questions on the new models.
I love the harder rubber on the rand of Origin VS - seems like a great way to prolong lifespan of the shoe for many beginner and intermediate climbers climbing mostly indoors.
I was kinda hoping for an Instinct VS rework, inspired by the new Instinct S, but I guess I'll stock up on the current models for a while longer. Thanks for the great presentation per usual, Rob!
I keep expecting this to come at some point too. I love the Instinct VS and VSR, but there's no denying that the Instinct S makes them both look pretty old school. It can only be a matter of time though. I suspect a major part of the reason it's taking time is because of how important they are within the Scarpa range. If you are going to change them, you'd want to be sure it's an actual improvement. Certainly not something you'd want to mess up!!
@@ukclimbingofficial Definitely! Besides the LS Solution, it's pretty much THE bouldering/sport shoe (Hiangle doesn't count with it's constant reiteration :P). I wonder if they might go in a similar direction with that as LS has, i.e. offer the legacy option and the newer 'Comp' model at the same time. Climbers are a traditionalist bunch, they don't like too much change.
One thing I do worry about with Scarpa shoes moving forward is resoleability. The Instinct line has a relatively simple design where the rand is completely seperate from the tensioning system, making it very easy to replace entirely by the authorized resolers. The design of the Instinct S is much more complex, and I worry resolers won't be able to do anything but slap a toe cap on in case of holes.
@@the.Aruarian I've got faith that within whatever re-design they do or don't do they'll factor in re-soling, because that's something we've seen elsewhere in the range. The feedback we've received from re-solers is that Scarpa are some of the best to re-sole because they're so well built. I suspect that the Instinct S would actually be relatively straightforward to re-sole in light of this.
No one wants that! 😂
I think Scarpa have hit a bit of a peak over the last few years with their high end performance shoes, they had a phase of bringing a new shoe out that felt like every month but the dragos are 1 of the best indoor bouldering shoes the VSR’s are one of the best all rounders, the instinct slipper is the best board shoe, the instinct lace up is the best out door route shoe, they just seem to have all the bases covered and they’ve already got many more great shoes like the boosti, boosters, furias etc etc that I don’t know where they go from here which is why I guess they seem to be concentrating on the more beginner/casual, comfortable market right now.
If they fit your feet.
Curious heel design on these? I'm always surprised when brands don't extend the heel rubber up to the colored rand. It seems a small thing, but typically makes the heel so much better and more effective at hooking.
also found the shallowness of the Origin VS heel to be peculiar, but likely means the actual tension through the heel can be moderated and fit more people better at a period where heel sensitivity and precision is not essential.
I think that's exactly it - these aren't intended to have a high tension heel due to their relatively relaxed fit. I'll be able to comment in greater detail once I've actually used a pair. There's only so much you can ascertain whilst sat in a showroom 😂
Where does the Spot sit in terms of stiffness?
It's obviously going to be softer than the Vapor V, but almost everything is softer than the Vapor V. The comparison with the Vapor S would be more interesting.
That's not entirely true. The Vapour V has quite a supportive forefoot, but due to its featuring a split sole isn't overly supportive throughout the rest of the shoe. You're right though, it'll probably be a bit more like the Vapour S, although how much like it remains to be seen as we're yet to try on a pair properly.
@@ukclimbingofficial Yeah, I was referring to the forefoot of the Vapor V.
I have the Vapour V and while I really like the edging ability which is just right on my home crag (concrete artificial rock), but it's really falling short on smears. An alpine climbing trip on limestone with slabs and rillenkarren really showed me the limits of the hard XS Edge rubber.
This means I might have to look into getting a stickier, more versatile and maybe slightly softer shoe for regular sport climbing and the occasional harder multipitch route. Preferably something semi-agressive and semi-stiff, because I do like some support, edging power and comfort. Looking at Evolv Geshido and Five Ten Crawe, neither of which I'm going to be able to try out in person (european capital city far from any mountains with no actually good climbing stores... sigh).
Or can I just get my Vaour V resoled with something more sticky (i.e. XS Grip 2) and it would work fine?
Or is it simply not possible to have a stiff-ish shoe that's good at edging also be good at smearing, no matter the rubber?
Great video! Currently deciding between the Vapor V and Arpia. Looking at the video the Arpia will be my best bet for indoor bouldering, right?
They are at the same price point here in The Netherlands.
Yes, for indoor bouldering, I would say you are better suited getting the Arpia V.
I’d say Arpia V too 👍
hopefully gyms start stocking the instinct s soon, i can only find them online :(
Fingers crossed 🤞 The Instinct S is a truly amazing shoe. In my opinion it's something every shop should stock!!
Have you already tested both shoes?
I need new ones.
I started with the old model of the Origin. Now I wear a very old version of the veloce with the xs grip sole.
So both are interesting to me.
Would be great to see a review video for fitting and performance 😁
We’re due to film the Origin VS review within the next couple of weeks, which would mean it’ll be released sometime within the next month (as there’s a few things ahead of it in the queue). The Spot we featured here is now called the Arpia V and that’ll likely be a couple of months, as I’d like to use them a bit more before casting an opinion. Both have been really good though. The Origin VS is a great option for anyone starting out indoors. My impression of the Arpia V is that it’d be a really good all-rounder for intermediate sport and trad climbers. Happy to answer any questions!
@@ukclimbingofficial thanks for answering. I bought both shoes now, but still waiting to get them. If they are fitting, I will start my own test :)
It sits "around about where the Quantic and the Quantix previously sat within the Scarpa range"? The Quantic and Quantix aren't already being discontinued, are they? They're only, what 2 years old, if that?
A good question with a slightly complex answer. Judging by the latest Scarpa product map the Quantic has indeed been discontinued, but the Quantix will live on; however, it won't live on in the UK as the UK distributors aren't bringing it in. For one reason and the next it wasn't overly popular and I'm assuming that other models, including the likes of the Spot (and to an extent the Generator) have filled the same space.
@@ukclimbingofficialinteresting, there looks like a lot of overlap between the Quantic and Quantix, so discontinuing one in favour for the cheaper price point spot makes sense. However, if the quantix/c weren't popular, it's hard to imagine the spot hitting the spot. Pun intended.
I feel like the "Balanced performance" range is lacking that indoor focused bouldering shoe. Something between the drago/instincts at one end and the origin vs/veloce at the other. I have the vapor V, they feel a little stiff with the full lengthen insole and lacks a good toe patch. The spot looks like the heel won't be great for hooks (but the extra height around the ankle would feel better) and still has a 3/4 insole. I've heard the veloce isn't great for heel hooks as well. I own some instinct vsr and think they're a great shoe but maybe the instinct range is perceived as too advanced for many (myself included, haha).
Also, do split soles cost more to manufacture? Less material but more labour perhaps? I'm assuming a full-length sole has been used on both models to hit a price point.
P.S. great vids, keep up the good content.
From what you've described, I think either the Instinct VSR, Instinct S or or perhaps even the Vapour S would be worth looking at. I certainly don't think there's a shortage of options within the Scarpa range, as it's about as comprehensive as a climbing shoe collection gets!!
When it comes to split sole vs. full-length sole, I suspect the answer to which is used largely depends on how Heinz feels about its effect on the shoe's performance. It sounds like that's his primary concern whilst designing a shoe.
@@ukclimbingofficial ...not sure you replied to the right comment there? 🤔
@@TrackpadProductions I need more coffee....or less coffee...or wine...
Doesn't make sense that Vapors are better for support as the are split-sole, while Sports are full-sole. Usually it's the opposite 0.o
It is, although this is perhaps an indication of how much midsoles differ both in terms of their thickness and their shape. We'll go into more detail on it within the review.
Nice, video. Thank you. Do you have information about what kind of midsole the origin vs uses?
Interestingly they both feature the same 1mm Flexan 3/4 length midsole
@@ukclimbingofficial Thank you for the quick response. Love your channel :)
@ukclimbingofficial it will be interesting to see what the midsoles look like on these shoes
Sorry, missed this back when it was first posted. They both feature a 1mm 3/4 length Flexan midsole.
3/4 flexan midsole, so how much would you say does the spot differs from scarpa quatix sf?
We haven't had a chance to use them yet, but I think the Arpia - as it's now known - is a bit more basic in terms of construction when compared to the Quantix SF. I think the latter would give you more support throughout a full day of climbing, although I'll be able to qualify this more completely once I've had a chance to use them for a while.
Please give me new Instinct VS/VSR with heel and toe patch from the Drago. And make Chimera VS! Why only lace!?
Chimera VS with nice toehook rubber!
They’ve got to be working on a new Instinct, surely?! That said, I’ve never got them to confirm or deny. It’s got to be coming though. It’s an old shoe now, but still a great shoe - it’s just that the Instinct S shows how far their design has come on since.
I always thought that the "Chimera VS" was the Drago, or the other way round that the Chimeras were a Drago lace.
@@flip_lange The Chimeras are supposed to be noticeably more supportive and I think they also have a wider form (last).
Climbing shoes are ridiculously priced. I can buy a pair of fairly technical, good quality boots that will last for five years for £150. Or a pair of climbing shoes with a quarter of the materials and technology that last 3 months outdoors or 8 months indoors.
How do they justify that? Especially with the 3.5mm rubber
It's designed for performance. Climbing shoes undergo _far_ more short-term wear and tear than tradtional boots, and _need_ to be lightweight, softer, close-fitting, and powerful. All the features that make them good for climbing inherently reduce durability.
It's a scale thing - the more of any given shoe that's produced the cheaper that shoe will be. Raw materials will never be the expensive part of low production run products, rather the best indication of the price will probably be the amount of stitches required for the fabric upper and sole vs the volume of production. Add on to that the biggest climbing brands have factories based in Europe and not in sweatshops and the labour cost is very high.
Higher end shoes also use much more complicated production methods regular shoes don't such as being made on a slip last with unusually made toe patches to avoid seams where you need the most sensitivity, while cheaper shoes will still be made on a board last.
@ctrlsaltdelete I take your point on the scaling issue, however climbing has been growing at a rate of around 8% for the past 20 years. But in the past 10 years climbing shoes have increased in price by around 100%, far out pacing inflation. With all the new climbers you would assume that the price should come down instead of increasing.
Slip lasting has been around for 40 years, and equally doesn’t account for the massive price increase. Shoes factories are where they have always been and labour costs have increased at a lower rate than inflation over the past few decades.
Technologies may have advanced, but I don’t notice any improvement in use between my old anasazis which were £75 15 years ago over my new scarpa and la sportiva shoes at £150. Sensitivity, support and friction remain unchanged. Taking inflation into account top end climbing shoes should be around £100.
@@ciaranoloan6199I bought my first pair of Solutions almost a decade ago now for I believe $185, and they are currently $199. As well, as someone who climbs through the specialized range of Scarpa, several of those models did not exist or were for broader categories where a given specialization did not truly exist. Modern shoes are better, but the difference in shoe x and y and z is marginal, and the difference will be even more marginal for improvements as with almost any gear. Because of this hyper specialization, you also get smaller markets for each shoe and to keep some prices reasonable other shoes have to absorb the cost a little.
I do not think the price is outrageous when I look at other high performance gear, but unfortunately durability is a consideration for many which climbing shoes do not lend themselves to.
There are no parallels to be drawn between the construction quality of an old Five Ten Anasazi and a modern Scarpa shoe, because they're worlds apart. Even in their heyday, Five Ten were renowned throughout the industry for their inconsistency, both in terms of quality and sizing, and how quickly they fell apart. Using an inflation calculator a £70 shoe in 2003 would cost £120 today, which isn't far off what we're talking about here, only what you're getting is much better made.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for a bit of nostalgia about how the Anasazi used to perform, because they definitely had some magic, but I think most of that magic was within the rubber - not the construction quality. Whilst they may have been cheap, the fact they fell apart pretty quickly made that a pretty poor investment, but people kept investing because they were the best that was available at the time.
Wow what a set of really ugly new shoes from Scarpa 😅
That's a somewhat savage assessment 😂 I guess, in their defence, they're aimed at hitting a bit more of a price point, so lack the aesthetics of the more expensive shoes within the range. That said, I didn't not like them - they're just not quite as sharp as the premium models.
@@ukclimbingofficial I don’t think that there’s a direct correlation of the price point of a shoe to it’s overall aesthetic. I do actually think as climbing progresses and more and more people take up the sport then unless scarpa adapt to this the likes of Evolv could well dominate a ‘younger’ more gym going audience.
@@MF-CLIMBI've been thinking the same thing. Both La Sportiva and Scarpa don't seem to get what the inner-city boulder gym rats want... Or maybe just me, haha.
I'd imagine this is becoming a huge part of the climbing shoe market. I'm not sure we should need to choose between performance and aesthetics in 2023 (or 2027, which is when the new shoes will make it down under).
@@robertarmour9572 I mean Scarpa must think that women only like the colour teal and pink 😂
@@MF-CLIMB this is true. But at least all the yellow men's versions match all my other yellow shoes. I always pair a nice garish yellow shoe with any outfit... You know what they say - from the boardroom to nights out you gotta keep the feet looking mellow with some garish yellow.