What Makes a Book Bad? | A Discussion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ส.ค. 2024
- Hey ya'll! I realized that I've never been asked what I think makes a book bad so I thought I would list a few of my personal reasons. Let me know what you think makes a book bad in the comments below!
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the lack of the world building is just what makes drop any 🙄book immediately especially when I heard that alot of romantasy suffer from that and have terrible character development and also have the audacity to be 500 pages book and for what 🙄
For nothing! Lmao!
for endless descriptions of how big and hunky the male lead is, as far as I can tell. God forbid romantasy authors spend some page time on plot or worldbuilding
I've heard that about romantacy too. I'm not even into that genre yet.
@@whiteraven562 ya exactly 💯. I need to read these books to see how bad they are 😅
All of these are the same for me, Ashley! I would add ‘female characters who are killed/fridged/SA’d/gRaped simply so the main character (usually a man) can have an epiphany of some sort. Nope, nopeity , nooe nope nope!
NO NO NO that’s an absolute no! Agreed!
Then you will not like The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I mean, the SA'd girls didn't even get justice at the end of the book which was honestly disgusting. It felt like I needed an exorcism after reading that book and I refuse to continue the series or read another book by that author.
I had this discussion with my male writer friends. I was talking about how I DNF'd a book because of sexism and didn't plan on continue the series. They were shocked since it's one of their favourites. "It doesn't have sexism, does it? I would have noticed?" When I pointed out the multiple rape scences, the incest scene, the sexual description of a 14-year old and other things like that, they were shocked. They just read over it.
Totally agree.
But also interestingly, my favorite (male) author Scott Westerfeld did the opposite not once but twice in his dystopian Uglies Series, with (spoilers) fridging a important male character for the character development of his female main character.
@@AbeNoSeireiwas it Game of thrones? People are so offended when you point out the sexism with those (which isn’t even all historical as touted although I’ll give him some leniency there for first few as 90s accessible history books may not have been great)
Now I don’t mind a long book, but I can’t stand long chapters!
2. No charter development
3. Romance where romance isn’t needed (like can they not just be good friends)
4. Forced romance (like they don’t fit and weren’t into each other, then boom, now they are in love)
5. Books that don’t understand themselves
6.books that are too on the nose
7. Books that mention TT or like trends on TT (one you’ll date your book like that, two, it takes me completely out)
8. I miss books with no chapter name and no pronunciation of certain ch names.
9. Books where the MC is sooo super smart, but does really dumb 💩
The upward veering of YA from topical and exciting teen literature into easy adult fluff really grates me, you're so right on that point.
I think what's happening is 10-20 years these authors were on Wattpad writing fanfic and that's how they "learned" to write, instead of actually studying writing and storytelling. Bc in fanfic, the characters are already established so the writer doesn't have to establish a character themselves. But the MC's wants/needs and overcoming flaws are what carry the entire story. And since these authors don't understand basic storytelling, their characters can only want something tangible for vague reasons. Ex: a hot boyfriend who can dck them down while also holding them up on a pedestal.
That's a really interesting point! And it would explain why almost all of them are so similar! 🤔
Damn as a fanfiction writer, this is a slap in the face I need.
Though why I still add some more character "establishment" in my fanfiction despite the character is already well known and established, because I have a personal adage "if readers/audience can't get a good grasp of your characters without consuming any supplementary media outside the main book/film/anime/etc (official lore books, interviews, etc. for original works; the actual canon media for fanfiction) then you've failed as a writer".
Agreed! Also, often authors who come from fan-fiction seem to write the same story every time (eg. Ali Hazelwood - it’s all Reylo inspired and if you like those dynamics then it works for you, but if you don’t like them, the author doesn’t have much else to offer)
@@marisagettas right?! These writers say they love these characters, but don't want to explore their biggest defining factos: their truma.
Kylo wants power bc Luke made him feel powerless and it terrified him.
Rey wants power bc she believes it will make ppl love her after her parents abandoned her.
That's interesting. That makes a compelling story and connects them. "They don't need power. They just needed each other."
But no. They only like these characters bc boy big, girl small.
@@marisagettas Tbh this can be easily remedied by fanfiction writers writing for more than one fandom, or different ships with different dynamics than their OTP if they can't invest more to another fandom. Even then in one OTP there should be different facets a writer can explore as long as they put their mind into it.
So it's actually back again to the writer's effort and willingness to explore, that sadly 2020s endorphin rush instant gratification culture doesn't promote
I agree with most of this. I'm an adult reader who enjoys YA (and I enjoyed it as a teen too, but I was at a higher reading level and also reading Stephen King and Game of Thrones at that age, so...). If they were to make more of a point of separating YA and NA (New Adult), I think both camps could benefit. YA stories playing with darker themes or topics could go further, and lean into the maturity, if labelled as NA instead, while true YA books could be written in a way that was accessible for kids not yet ready for that kind of content (be it violence or spice).
As for the incest thing, I agree that it's not good in a romance context. If the book in question is a thriller, a psychological horror, or is otherwise SUPPOSED to be disturbing, that's different. If the incest is presented as a tragedy, and not portrayed as a good thing, I can handle it. If a book is literally labelled as a romance, then no - that would turn me off too.
It’s so hard to see it as romantic! I agree!
I have found most recently that "popular reads" are usually not that good. And every time I fall for a book that's advertised to me, it's a disappointment.
A lot of popular books seem to follow the same formula.
The YA thing really bugs me too 😅 I have a 13yo and 14yo who really should be right into this genre & I'm having to read/read reviews before they even pick the book up because there's so much that's not really appropriate (in our family) for them to be reading yet.
I also really struggle with any book, especially from a MMC POV, that shows womens trauma, assault and killing to further the story. I stopped reading crime books because almost every single one I picked up had female victims who had been SAd and then killed - we have to deal with the reality/fear of that so much as a woman that I really don't need to be reading it every damn week too.
Agree with all of your points. One I’ve observed lately that fits into your last point is Adult books that probably should have been YA. I feel like this is happening in the fantasy romance space a lot where the characters are nominally aged up (author just says they’re 20 when they act like teenagers) and I wonder if either authors or publishers are doing this so that they can add spice and then market them to spicy book readers when the story really didn’t need that 🙄
One thing that drives me up the wall is books that are 350+ pages and only have like 10 chapters, so each one is about 40 pages or more. It makes the books feel like they take *forever* to get through, and for what? Most of the time there's no stylistic or narrative reason why there couldn't have been more chapters
God I see so many fanfics pull this kind of thing too. Why??? Do they not understand that chapters are supposed to be read in a single sitting?? They're supposed to provide rest points for the reader while still giving them a hook to make sure they come back???
Yes! I hate books with long ass chapters!!!!
Idk if it makes the book bad as a whole but reasons I've said "absolutely not" to a book were
1. Talking down to the reader
2. Insufferably annoying character that's supposed to be on our side
3. Making light of things/ treating serious topics with apathy
4. Any kind of bigotry from the mc in regular ass setting when it's not the point. Like, bro, your small town romance mc shouldn't have bigotry as a "character quirk."
5. Obvious prejudice from the author that seeps into the book.
6. Honestly? Boredom.
7. Pop culture references and that specifc way people keep having their characters talk (usually in fantasy) where they sound like they took a psychology class and feminism 101. So weirdly jarring with clinical terms no one off the internet actually says or, idek how to explain it. They talk perfectly? And all the same too. They don't have their own voice. And it feels like learned it in our world, not a fantasy one.
Ya agree 💯. I've not read any popular books on book Tok.. thankfully. But ya. Well maybe a few. Like the Thursday Murder Club. Which was amazing by the way. 😊❤
I agree on last one. I absolutely can’t stand it when a book feels the need to lecture me about feminism or some other social issue. And they all sound like they c+p’ed it from a Reddit thread. It goes with the first one, too, it feels like it’s talking down to the reader and scolding them. And it can easily lead to the second one if it’s the main character that’s doing it. I literally read to escape that crap, not hear more of it.
@@bluecannibaleyes ya exactly 💯. Even though the Thursday Murder Club does mention climate change and whatnot. It didn't bother me. Ya I'm interested in reading 9th house soon 😁
@@YW2324 I’ve never read that one. If it mentions ‘climate change’ then I probably wouldn't appreciate it, although it depends if it’s just a one sentence eyeroll or half the book. I’m not really into mysteries or cozy mysteries, though, so never really planned on reading that one anyway. I’m more of a horror reader and I like my gore. LOL
I liked Ninth House a lot, largely because I didn’t feel like it was preachy about anything. I actually had no idea that the author was even a feminist until I looked at her Goodreads profile after I read the book, and that’s the way I like it. Ninth House is actually a good example of how it’s totally possible for me to enjoy books written by people who have different opinions than me, so long as they aren’t trying to unsubtly shove it down my throat.
On the other side of that, something I read recently and really disliked because of all the preaching was Into The Drowning Deep. The constant signaling about climate change and d!sabilities was a huge turn off that really took away from my enjoyment. And none of it really had anything to do with the actual story. The thing is, I actually thought the premise of the story was really interesting, and I actually did enjoy the parts that weren’t actively scolding me for not knowing sign language or something. But there was just SO much constant whining, it was impossible to ignore it. It also made the book waaay longer than it needed to be. There were so many times when I was like ‘just tell the dang story! Less p0lit!cal scolding, more people getting eaten by evil mermaids please.’
@@bluecannibaleyes Ya I can't remember how much about it was mentioned in it though. But ya I need to read the ninth house at some point.
I'm with you on the graphic novel points. As a fan of those (and a very amateur artist) bad art can ruin a comic, because in those the art IS PART of the storytelling.
Truth!! And on the flip side, clever amazing art can save a story for me. I will recommend Batman: Court of Owls on the art alone. Because I for real don’t remember what happens in it, but there are some _amazing_ panels I will never forget that I think are worth it by themselves. Physical copy only though, because the electronic apparently messes it up ^_^
A huge pet peeve I have is when the main conflict or climax happens off page. I’ve read so many books where the mc and the antagonist are finally about to fight and the chapter immediately ends. Then starting the next chapter there is a time jump and they will say “I guess we’ll never know what really happened”. Or they’ll just give a few sentence explanation. No! I’ve been waiting the whole book for this moment. I want to see that interaction happen for myself!
Yikes!
I've not touched Outlander, books or show, since I luckily found out it relies so much on s*xual v*olence, I'm just not engaging with that type of media anymore. I grew up in a landscape flooded with it, and sort of just accepted it as part of the world, but I've realised I can choose not to traumatise myself. I love that trigger warnings are a thing now, I wish it had been when I was younger. Imo there is never really a reason to depict it, you can sum it up in a non-graphic way if you absolutely need to include it, and in visual media it should be depicted from the victim's pov if at all to avoid it being titillating as it often tends to be framed, inadvertently or not. And it should be clearly broadcasted that it exists in the piece. I'm tired of it being used as a cheap plotpoint, and especially to further a man's arc, it's absolutely disgusting.
Obviously there is a discussion to be had, but it should be focused on the victim, and their trauma, which still can happen without showing it in graphic detail.
It’s not even that it has, it is just portrayed so poorly, so frequently, and often romanticized. You definitely made the right call if you are especially sensitive to that
Great points. Something I really dislike is when a book pulls something dark out of nowhere near the end and then finishes the story as if that event had basically no impact.
I hate when books are too on the noses with their themes. Like who do you think is reading this? Someone who doesn’t already know racism, homophobia, ableism, etc is bad?? Cause I know that, you don’t need to spell it out. Show me how it’s bad and negatively impacts people in big and small ways. I worry with teachers saying kids now a days don’t have basic comprehension skills that we’ll see more of this 😢
Great thoughts! I struggle with the poor writing, the show-don't-tell, and where is YA going these days. Also, content warnings are so important. Thank you for sharing!
Ashley, your channel is really the most well-rounded, balanced booktube channel there is. You do such a fantastic job covering so many different things: reviews, recommendations, book community news/tea, and discussing important issues surrounding the book world, such as book banning and the importance of libraries.
Love this discussion!
Keep up the incredible work! ❤
Im 15:31 in rn and I have a really big peeve personally. Its mostly for action/shonen/fantasy type things, but power creep is one I consistently see and I always have problems with it
Its basically when a character or group of characters grow so strong that they go outside the scope of the medium and it becomes hard to quantify their strength, how smart they are, or it just puts a hamper on the story because their struggle is in part because of physical conflict. Usually because everyone else is far too weak and putting them in the story is basically a waste of time. I even noticed an example of this in Fourth Wing surprisingly. Violet gets two dragons, two powers, a body guard who's literally right behind her at all times, and the main enemy can't even put a dent in her. She is outwardly and consistently the most powerful in the room and it both disregards her struggles with her disability, and it kinda makes her look like Yarros' Mary Sue self insert oc (im not even kidding). Perfect boyfriend, perfect powers, and her disabilities dont even *disable* her really. Its too much for one character.
I've always compared her to Johnny Joestar, and I feel like Araki (the author) does a similar story but so much better. He's another disabled character but the author can actually tell us how he goes about his day as a paraplegic without downsizing his struggle, while also having shonen elements, WHILE not making him so remarkably powerful that it stops having an affect on him.
Some may critique the disability rep on Araki's end, I dont think its bad but I can see where they come from on it. You also read shonen as well so if you haven't yet, give it a read. Its not officially translated sadly but-
Yar har🏴☠️🏴☠️
Oh gosh yes, agreed about outlander. It had so much potential, but I feel like it just became tradwife p*rn. What should have been a discussion about views in cerain time periods just became "look how accepting I am" when she's really not that accepting. The whole good gay vs bad gay (sv vs charity marriage) thing for example.
I'm with you on the past me/ current me thing. I've started to reread things I read when I was younger and I'm seeing so much stuff that I just missed or was just used to back then that now I'm.... not fond of.
Also, I like your phrase of the the staccato style, it's a good term for it
Yea rereading now is like a hit or miss lol
@@BookishRealm Fer sure. On the spin side I'm liking books I didn't used to.
But the worst is when I don't gel with the very popular book of the moment, so I'm wondering 'is it just me?'
Interesting 🤔. I've not read as long as you then. At least I think so? But I'll have to see about that when I re-read anything
Staccato spoke to me. 😂
Lmao so damn choppy 😂😂
I 100% agree with you on the issue with YA books!! I think publishers have a lot to answer for in this area. What I understand happened was, New Adult was a genre that was meant to contain these books aimed at 18-25 year olds but the genre wasn't well established and when it didn't take off the books were all thrown into YA. That is why SJM's books were rebranded because they were getting moved out of YA and rebranding was the best way to achieve that (the problem is it spent so many years in YA people still think it is). I used to work in a book store and it became increasingly difficult to recommend books for young teenagers. I also found myself having to talk to parents about the books their kids were choosing. I had young girls picking books with graphic grape scenes that do not have content warnings (another reason why I think they're important). I don't like to sensor people's reading but my recommendation to parents with kids in the 12-14ish age group is look into the books your kids are getting and just be mindful and aware that it may not be written with kids in mind despite it being in the YA section.
I know this is probably a weird compliment, but you have such a relaxing voice. I feel super calm and chill listening to you talk about books. I can watch your videos next to my napping kids, and it doesn't wake them up. So, kuddos for that! Lol.
❤ I agree with you with the young adults books they are for adults
Yesss too many of them!
Thank you for mentioning some leniency for indie authors. So many content creators encourage indie authors to just hire an editor. If you can afford that, great! But it rubs me the wrong way to hear because, in theory, indie is supposed to be a space that more underrepresented voices are heard. So I guess underrepresented, as long as they can afford an editor?
Not saying someone shouldn't be careful in editing themselves or asking for volunteer readers, but "just hire an editor" feels kind of out of touch.
Also, yes. So many books are 400+ pages and there is no forward momentum. I'm reading a book right now that I realized I'm over a quarter of the way through and NOTHING has happened. I'm all for character-driven narratives, but I need the characters to... I don't know, drive somewhere.
17:35 Tastes change as you get older and you become aware of more things. I know it has happened to me a lot. There are many things that I used to like that I can't stand now. The one thing I don't get is, normalising, romantising, sexualing dark twisted acts another human being to another. You know the ones that I am talking about. Those stories were supposed to help those trapped in dark pits, help them seek thier way out. ...somehow it has become a different thing for some reason, it is weird.
I feel all of these! I know I'm tired of books where the subplots are boring and feel like an after thought. I almost wish novellas were more of a thing, especially for debut authors because some stories don't need to be a whole novel, but maybe that's just me.
It really is a shame that publishers don’t have a clearly defined genre of New Adult (like college age) because that age group has such a unique experience too and deserves stories that reflect that stage in their life, but instead they get mixed into YA so both groups have a hard time of finding stories for their age-level. (now ofc adults can read YA and I think it's fine for teens to read some adult fiction if they're mature enough for it and they discuss that with their guardians but YA should still cater towards its target audience)
I've nodded in agreement so much I think I've given myself an injury
this is such a great question to ask yourself as a reviewer!
Great video! I found myself agreeing to your comments, I'd just like to add that when it comes to graphic/sexual violence now I just either not continue with the series or just drop the author altogether. It's a real shame if it's a series I really wanted to finish too, but I just cannot condone it (The Witcher is the best example for me here, it left me so disappointed that's been on hold for years). I do not need that in my head at all (visualizing everything I read certainly doesn't help!) and it seems so gratuitious and, worse, to please a specific audience.
I went through a Sidney Sheldon phase in my early twenties, I was devouring 2, 3 books until I saw a pattern, it always had a non consensual scene and, worse than that, I noticed that characters having sex would be written in 1 or 2 sentences, very superficial, while the assault would be paragraphs long and detailed! Why?! This bothered me a lot and I can't really think of any reason why such a difference existed other than to please psychos and/or the author deriving sick pleasure from it. So I was done with the author then and there. This is just an example, of course, but it came to mind!
One thing that bums me is when mystery writers are trying so hard to make the reveal unexpected that they don't leave any clues that you can realistically pick up on. Its like getting a bad grade on a math quiz and it turns out the teacher gave you an incomplete problem to solve.
Very good statement about YA books. Long long long ago, I worked in a bookstore, in Texas, no less. One of the tricky sorts of customer would be a parent who had a really smart kid with advanced reading vocabulary. The parent would be convinced their darling could read and comprehend ANY book we had, and wanted recommendations. I actually developed a list of authors who were kinda kid-safe (rarely included strong language or descriptions of violence, sex was at most "kissing/fade to black", and were engaging to read, because what is the point otherwise) in a variety of subjects, but sometimes they would insist on getting what I think of as the Stephen King Soft Porn Divorce group of YA. And those can be good for the right teenage reader. But when Mama in Houston wants her precious baby (who is eight!) to have something that will really encourage them in reading... Ho boy. I had a woman pick up a stack of manga with an 18+ rating On Their Covers with a "precocious treasure of a boy who likes swords" trying to tell me these had to be appropriate for her son because Comic Books Be For Kidz. Ugh...
Not the snore after "some people like to read for escape" 🤣
That was really interesting to see all of that put into words. Will also likely help me edit the novel draft I am working on right now
If I put a book down midway through, it's most likely not a good book (for me!). Been having this issue lately, mostly with YA books. I'll read a few chapters and then put it down and not pick it up again for a long while. Then the guilt happens. I wish there weren't bad books, but like everything else, the fit just wasn't right.
The pacing of a book is a make or break for me. Staccato was a great way explaining it!
I struggle with books with unlikeable characters or, worse, book series with the same patterns or formula for each book or set of books in the series.
For example, the character A gets angry, storms off in a huff, then does that dumbest thing, only to be rescued by character b: Rinse and Repeat for every book in the series, regardless of whether the character development was laid for this character in previous books as contradictory for this archetype. SMH. I find myself yelling at the author in my head, and often, I will not finish the series.
i saw Peter Pan in the thumbnail and I read one with that exact cover, I knew it was going to be disturbing going in, but man, I was not prepared for Barrie dropping a sentence where some fairies were coming back from an orgy💀
I finished the murder of Mr. Whickham. A slower paced murder mystery set in 1820 with characters from Jane Austen books. There's two other books out now as well. Also I've recently ish, the midlife magical Madness..
A huge draw for fantasy is the worldbuilding for me, so when authors don't spend the time to flesh out the world it becomes a bad book, it's probably why I don't like most romantasy books because the authors spend so much time focused on the romance I don't know why they even bothered putting it in a fantasy world. A particular annoyance I have come across is authors appealing to readers with a promise of a magical academy but then they don't bother to come up with a cirriculum, teachers, student life, etc. They seem to treat it like it's regular high school when the entire point is that it is a speacial experience, like going away to boarding school, I want to experience what makes this so unique.
14:24 Endings. I hear you, in books, tv shows or movies. I never understood this one. The whole thing is great, and you get to the last 5 minutes and it just craps up. It just doesn't match up to anything and they cobbled something together because of last minute heist or something. It does spoil the whole thing. I was watching an 80s movie the other day and the ending was quite disappointing, as I am sure they could have done better.
Internal inconsistency is what makes a book bad, if we don't look at language it's written with. As long as book is consistent with its own rules, world and characters it is a good book for someone. I think there are no bad tropes as long as they make sense in the world the book is building. And that's it. Writer has to write the rules and either follow them throughout or break them only in a way logical for the worldbuilding. Otherwise the book will fall onto itself
Talking more on the last topic: I totally agree and the market now also re-catagorizing in the market that used to be for *adults* into YA. As I commented in the last video, The Last-Herald Mage trilogy got this treatment. Same with the Rowan and Deerskin. yes they started as teens but the books actually watch them grow up into full adults and some of the topics weren't *ment* for teens to read. (Did I read the last-Herald Mage as a teen? yes... yes I did. But my reading level was a bit higher than some of my classmates as I was reading on a college Freshman level from what I was told when I was in Freshman in High School, and I was craving more of a challange at the time and wanted something that went into topics that I couldn't get in YA at the time. Deerskin I didn't read until I was an adult because.... it's a totally different book. And I know some people are like "Well Identical is ment for teens, so why not Deerskin?" It's because Identical is in the pov of a Teen and stays as a teen. Deerskin actually a fully grown adult by the end of the book as she's been gone for 5 to 7 years after the things that happened to her at the age of 17.)
I also agree with the strange desire for not putting in content warnings for dark romances. I'm weary of dark romances due to personal issues, but I do like having the content warnings so I know if I should recommend a book for a friend due to the summery. So for example, I'm probably going to end up reading a bunch of little mermaid retellings because I like the story personally and how you can play with that, but also a friend of mine wants a retelling of a particular way without the spicy scenes. Totally fair, and I think I found one that looks like it doesn't as the reviews don't mention any spice to it but I'm going have to read it myself to relay it (The Stone Mermaid is what the book is called). (Also same with Midnight Masqurade because that's a reverse Cinderella regency historical romance retelling similar to Ever After was a Renissance historical romance retelling of Cinderella (not reversed).) but I was able to give fair warning to the same friend that Secrets and Songbirds won't be a good one for her because it gave me a warning that it was spicy even though the summery sounded really good for a loose retelling of Beauty and the Beast. And I *know* I'm not suggesting The Bone Theif's Tale to said friend because I was able to read the CW of that as a Little Mermaid Retelling, but I'm excited to read that eventually personally. So I don't find CW as spoilers personally.
One thing that turns me off is poorly researched retellings. And I'm not even talking about time period (though that one does irk me a little but I can forgive it, especually for a fantasy.) But if you are doing a retelling of a fairy tale or story..... *do your research and make sure you fully understand the whole context of what you're retelling*! I wouldn't even mind if you're using a not well known version of said story because at least it shows that you've done the research! I would not have enjoyed Crown of Stars because WOOF.... the research in that retelling is non-existant from what I saw from Rachel's review. But the one that had me extreamly angry..... was Kingdom of Sweets. I hated that book so much. I wasn't even angry that it was Horror, because I was genuinely curious on how one would use the elements for horror. There were so many issues that was *extreamly* poorly researched that I had to DNF it by chapter 20/21 out of 48 chapters and not continue it. The location of the story, how the story was told, the way it was told, not using any of the actual elements that were important in the origonal story not the ballet, the *HISTORY* of it (it's set to be just a little pre-revolusion Russia when the origonal *story* was set in Germany and she didn't even research the importance of the Nutcracker *within* Germany. She just assumed that the Nutcracker was set in Russia because it was a russian ballet retelling of the story). There's a whole other slew of issues I had with it, but for the sake of shortening my rant. This was one of the issues and it's not the only book that has this issue of research.
Ooo poorly researched retellings is a good one!
Your thoughts are always well thought out and well expressed. I agree with all of your points.
I watched the Outlander series before I found out it was based on a book. For that reason I don’t want to read the books. I liked it but it is a violent show. When I visited Edinburgh our hotel was on a close (ie narrow street designed originally for foot traffic) that was transformed into the set for an Outlander scene. We walked back and forth on it for a few days before we noticed the Outlander sign.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to read them!
A couple of big ones for me:
-characters lacking motivation for their actions, or having motivations that don't make sense.
-character relationships that don't make sense (insta-love, people who hate each other for literally no reason, etc)
Agreed with all of this. Something I would add to the list (though others disagree) is sex scenes for the sake of sex scenes in a book that is not in the romance genre. It does nothing for the plot and extremely little (if anything) for the characters. It's totally fine to have romantic subplots in fantasy, but if you include multiple pages of what is basically just corn, it's a DNF for me.
This is such an interesting topic❤ I’m sending you great vibes!
5:30 I often wonder about this. I discover something good, and yet, it is very messy. Sometimes it can be overlooked....but I hate it when it's a fan favourite and I can't get into it. People will tell me '''keep going, it gets better later on''
Laziness for me in all ways, spelling or grammar mistakes, poor writing. Characters that are just there with no context or background. Badly used common tropes adding nothing new. I really like plotless books, but if the book is built up using tension and plot but if it never goes anywhere it’s just lazy. Cliffhanger ending it very rarely is done well, it’s as though the author is either trying to get a sequel out of it or think they are being clever they aren’t. I suppose for me books special, so many people never get the chase to write or publish so to see that chance wasted with laziness is just awful especially as a consumer it costs us a lot to purchase work the author needs to make it worth it.
Looooove all of your points. I'm like "yep" on every single one haha
Yrsa Sigurdardottir writes very good mystery thrillers with minimal violence, I rec starting with "Last Rituals" or "The Undesired".
Sara Blædel writes very good mystery thrillers with quite a lot of violence but doesn't cross the line into t...re p...n.
The last good thriller I read was The Lost Village by Camilla Sten
I feel you on art quality mattering for picture books and manga. I don't care how good the story of One Piece is. I hate the art style too much to ever read it
Haha! You know what? I respect that. It’s a lot.
You should try reading more shojo manga. The art style there is is cute and beautiful to look at.
Me too my good One-Piece-can't-enjoyer. I don't care how thrilling and exciting the adventures are, the art is a big fecking eyesore to me (and worse of all, the art of its women is getting worse and as a woman I can't stomach that).
If One Piece was a long ass fantasy novel series, boy I'd gobble it down in a heartbeat--the adventures in One Piece is genuinely high class. But sadly in Japanese publishing long novel series for YA never exists, and no, Light Novels are more like manga-lite and I'd still not gonna touch One Piece if it was a Light Novel.
I hate when I go into a book because the plot sounds interesting and the story telling is lackluster but when it comes to intimate scenes - oh, they get all the detail. I often skip pages or just DNF the book, cuz it's like I'm here for the story which is being told with no real interest by the writer but these explicit scenes, oh we got all the time and detail for those. Also, repetition. When they keep describing a certain character's appearance or characteristic, it's like, okay, we get it she's thin or she's beautiful... It feels like they're just trying to fulfill a word count with all that. Oh, another thing when you get to about 80% through a book and there is no end in sight, but then out of nowhere they wrap it all up like "yea, so the husband was the killer and that was that..." like they didn't know how to really end the story or got tired of telling it, so here is something to just end it. Like - who care. I can't stand those things.
Glad to know that the booktok girlies my age and older reading YA fantasy are ruining the landscape for actual children. Our society is so hostile to children these days, and now we're seeing adults ruin something that should be For children.
Anyway what makes me usually hate a book is if the book is written like it's written for social media. I primarily read classics, horror, and queer literature, and there's a real problem where a lot of queer authors write like the only things they've ever read were tumblr posts and fanfic. Gideon the Ninth is the most famous example.
When it comes to mature content, I have a sort of "cringe limit" where if the violence doesn't match the theme or add to the story/characters, I kinda get tired of it. I can handle a LOT of violence; I like horror and slashers. It's when the violence is eye-roll inducing that I get tired. It takes a certain level of bad writing to make me put down a book for mature content, so any author that makes me cringe and put the book down is really bad. A lot of independent horror writers do this. It's like. There's a fine line between having fun watching fictional characters get killed, and someone trying to write about how cool and edgy they are, u kno?
As a horror fan, I actually hate when things are over-explained in fantasy. I'm used to cases like Junji Ito where we get no answers and only get to see the scary thing. The unknown is more fun for me than the known. I don't want everything detailed, nor do I need everything detailed.
Legit same thought about Icebreaker! What the fuck else did they have to talk about after they got together? I felt like I was robbed of time by continuing to read it.
I can put up with a lot of stuff in my books (i consider "trash reading" to be a very fun if slightly different experience), but even a trash book (affectionate) absolutely must have SOMETHING happening in each scene. When you said you hate those 500-800 page nothing-happens books i FELT it, because some of the girlies out here are out here using "fantasy books can have 100+ wordcounts" as an exploit to serve ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!! So much page space thrown into the maw of bland, uninteresting character dialogue scenes bc none of these characters knows how to speak SUCCINCTLY, to the detriment of all of the worldbuilding and magic systems that those word budgets are SUPPOSED to be for. I am thee target audience for fantasy romance, but it's no wonder they're getting a bad rap lately, bc this is an issue with soooo many of them
Lots of these! I'm not going to like a book that has gratuitous violence, telling too much instead of showing, just vibes, also mediocre writing, unlikable characters that were intended to be likeable, and books that are very clearly written by a man or another uber privileged group
Your locs are sooo beautiful… that is all
one thing i can't stand is modern dialogue in a fantasy setting (that's not urban fantasy). i just dnf'd Voyage of the Damned bc the author was trying to make the character talk like early to mid 20 year olds, but bc it's in a fantasy setting with some religion that worships a goddess, they said things like "goddessdammit" for "for goddessake" i hated it i could not stand it.
Ooo I agree with all of these but I'm just lazy and call them all "bad writing" 😂 also mark my words - now that women in their 20s & 30s/booktok/booktube and their purchasing power have moved on to dark romance and romantasy, YA will go back to being written for teens REAL quick. I give it 2 to 3 years at most.
Flat or stereotypical characters, overhyped/wore out tropes, terrible endings, and more, but I can only list the top 3.
i'd love to know people's thought on the wisdom of building a reader's companion (in the form of a website) to accompany their world building. I never set out purposely to do this. I had some readers complain that my character descriptions were bare. So I decided, since I'm a character animator, to draw all my characters, and now I'm wondering.... was this even a good idea? Or is this just bad writing? (I love your channel by the way. it is so warm and cozy)
10:09 Yes this!! Even some “classics” have that problem, and I have strained my jaw trying to wrap it around some of these slants and busted meters!
Oooohhh, so in regards to the the whole romances getting really long thing -- and i don't know if this was the case w Icebreaker -- but bc a lot of them end up on KU, authors are making those romances longer bc page count factors into how you are paid. I hate it, but i also understand it in that respect.
Oooof, the whole thing that's going on with YA, especially YA fantasy, really annoys me. Like, I get there may be some crossover for people in their late teens, but if your MC is fully an adult at the beginning of the series then you aren't writing a YA novel...
I read a lot of nonfiction. A book that is disorganized, badly researched, marketed as a narrative or other form of nonfiction but is actually a reference book, makes a disingenuous argument, or is discriminatory, calls for fascist or fascist-adjacent political actions, or a combination, is a bad book.
Yes yes yes!!!! Good points!
Thank goodness for your voice. Getting tired of booktubers with loudass voice just to get the viewers' attention
I feel like the more popular an author becomes, more their books are unedited and so goddamm long. I don't know if it's because they think they are too good to be edited or if publishers want to profit with bigger books. And i hate it!
"YA is going through an identity crisis. It doesn't know what it wants to be." Girl, say it louder for the people in the back!
When I think about the books that were under Young Adult 20 years ago in the library and in the books stores compared to NOW, my flaggers are ghasted! Like who's child is reading ... I won't call any names but, you al know the books I mean!
I feel like the publishing industry, and it might be hard for the libraries to adjust but maybe it's time, to recreate this category. But MOST people OUTSIDE of the book world see 'young adult' and think 18+. Publishing is the ONLY place I know that classifies YA as ages 13-17. Young adult does not mean adult here, at all! So to clarify, maybe it's time to rename the category because apparently people are confused that it's something else. After Middle Grade we instead have Teens (13-17) and then YA/NA (18-24) or forget that category all together and just rename the YA category to something that let's people know the age range it really is. They're not adults.
I really hate perfect endings!!
Awesome advice for a writer, thank you
some books i could not finish reading and stopped. it wasn't for me, but plenty of ppl loved it. thats okay. similar to music or tv or film. we all don't have to like or enjoy the same genres or storytelling format.
Read what you love and love what you read. Cheers!
Adult thrillers have been sooooo hit or miss lately. Some big thriller names have had just absolute garbage books (they read more like James Patterson than themselves), but there have also been some just *amazing* ones, too. It feels like publishing houses aren't bothering properly editing debuts or books by big authors--the first because they don't want to waste money on something that flops and the latter because people are going to buy it even if it's trash. I really need publishing houses to hire enough editors, and pay them enough to keep them.
I agree with sooo many of your points. The trend of contemporary romances being 400+ pages is criminal. As a long time romance reader, I think booktok has definitely contributed to this trend.
I just started reading fantasy 2 years ago & I am more likely to dive into a 600+ page fantasy book than a romance over 400 pages.
The idea of a book being choppy is sooo accurate. When you said it I immediately thought of a book I just finished that i wanted to love but couldnt.
Disagree on the point of thrillers: I dont read many but when I do I want them to be predictable as hell...lol. Same wirh murder mysteries...predictable please. I dont so much want to mystery or to be thrilled I guess.
I don't have a list of what makes a "bad book" for me.
But I'll talk about picture books. If I read a PB and afterwards, I'm like "hmm". I may try it again. If I decide to and I'm still like "hmmm," then I willn't recommend that one. And that's usually how it goes, my first instinct is correct.
Also, books with Black characters that aren't written AND/OR drawn by Black people. Like, don't piss me off!
Oh! And books with too much cursing. Where characters curse just to curse. Or are vulgar just for the sake of it.
Every book is not for everyone, but some books aren't for anyone! LMAOOOO
But a good book! If I want to hug the book and the author and illustrator after, that's a damn good book! ✨
On the topic of picture books with bad/weird rhyming schemes, 'Go Dogs, Go' makes my brain hurt. I don't know if it's me, but the "rhyming" in that book did not work at all.
To add, I tried reading it to my son when he was little, and the way those words don't flow well for reading out loud had me questioning if I knew how to read or not.
Could you check out blood at the root?
Ever looked at free Science Fiction in the public domain? I started reading SF in 4th grade when books were 60 cents and 150 pages. The nuns at the school my mother sent me to NEVER taught science. But I decided to go to college for engineering in 7th grade.
My very first science fiction book is now free on the internet:
*Star Surgeon* (1959) by Alan E Nourse
Nourse was a doctor and that book has a heart transplant 10 years before it happened in the real world. Of course the computers in the story are a joke now. Real World beats science fiction. LOL
But there is lots more and kids just need a tablet, download at the library if no internet is at home.
*Little Fuzzy* by H. Beam Piper
*The Servant Problem* by Robert F. Young
*Black Man's Burden* &
*Border, Breed nor Birth* by Mack Reynolds
*Omnilingual* by H Beam Piper
*Deathworld* by Harry Harrison
*The Status Civilization* by Robert Sheckley
I went to college for Electrical Engineering.
Gurl im trying to be nosey, which book are you talking about? 21:40
So you're saying a book recs video for 12-14 in the future? ;) pretty please with a cherry on top? lol Seriously, you're completely on point as always. It's like you were reading my mind (verbos, inferences and YA especially)
Bad themes, bad story, bad plot, bad middle, craapy ending, slow start,
Agree, agree, agree!
What does BA themes mean?
@@sherig1376 *bad
@@BookishRealm oh sorry, I thought it was meant to an abbreviation of some sort 😂
@@sherig1376 lol I thought so too at first
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I enjoyed hearing your thoughts. I agree about graphic violence being a no, no for me. I hate when it happens in SFF and that is the catalyst on why the MC gets their powers or reason to save the world/town.
Ooo I don’t read much SFF so as I pick it up more I wonder how much of that I’ll see
from what i have heard there is a lot of transphobia in the outlander series for what it's worth (i have 2 of the books and haven't read them yet and i really really am glad i saw this first because i knew about the transphobia but not the Really Triggering Stuff)
Coming off the heels of finishing a "bad book", I can definitely add that one thing that makes a book bad is using poorly developed characters and stereotypes as means to an end to act in service of development for the main characters. And it's very obvious that you're doing it. Also plot twists just to have a plot twist when it makes no sense or doesn't feel fulfilling/in sync with the rest of the story.
Also I felt the 600-700 page contemporary romance argument because I felt this way about Pucking Around. 730 some pages for that was too much. (I survived reading though.)
I feel the same way you do about Outlander, rereading it especially.
i agree with ALLLL of these. 1,000%!
and i agree, Outlander is pretty traumatizing.
Sing it. I have a younger end teen that of course enjoys YA and she struggles with how matured up a lot of YA content is. I read some of those books and think you could easily swap the 17 year old for a 28 year old character bc of how mature the story actually is. We need a better breakdown between younger YA, older YA and new adult to better navigate the YA category.
If the main characters are insufferable, the books is automatically, at most, 3 stars.
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One of mine is the lengthy use of minutiae, and the flip side is the lengthy scenery (not world building) descriptions, it will become a DNF book for me. Adding extra characters continuously and following each individual's story (Robert Jordan - Wheel of Time series) = DNF books. Writing the whole backstory plus minutiae in the first two chapters rather than writing it as flashback memories during the story (The Sentence - Louise Erdrich = DNF). I am an immersive reader, I become the main character and the whole story happens to me so anything that jerks me out of this mode becomes a very strong chance of it becoming a DNF book or series. I have read so much M/M fanfic and been a Beta reader for them over the last 20 years that now if a romance story/novel provides details, I skim them until the story picks back up.
no such thing, there are book that are not for you.
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In fiction, the bigger the book, the bigger the red flag for me. At a certain point, you need to be able to reign it in and it speaks volumes about a person's writing ability and their editor that they can't make it concise. A 600 page piece of fiction? You aren't James Joyce and modern authors need to be ok with that. Anything over 400 pages isn't necessary (for fiction), that's just bad editing.
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