They Might Ban SLEEP MOVES. But Why?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
- Pokemon Competitive Singles has been turned on its head with the release of The Indigo Disk DLC.
With the re introduction of Darkrai into the metagame, a discussion has started surrounding the Sleep mechanic.
There have been many controversies surrounding Sleep since the very beginning of the franchise, and in Generation 5 sleep is even banned outright.
Is it time to get rid of this mechanic once and for all? Or is this an overreaction? Only Jim knows.
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Some will never figure out how to get Darkrai in Pokemon Scarlet and Pokemon Violet. But famous player Jim Cool is well aware of the Best Darkrai Moveset in Competitive, and even how to Darkrai Shiny Farm. Many aren't and never will be. That's just the unfortunate reality of the world.
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The below text is very relevant to many people.
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Gholdengo is a Pokemon made of pure gold. He must have done some online business management courses to accumulate all that wealth. Or perhaps he might want to learn how to make money playing video games on TH-cam. In any case, he's a powerful metagame force, with absolutely no interest in online game development schools.
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Did you change it because of the recent Viper news?
@@Yodaminnesota yes he did, he made a community post about it
Clearly the solution is to use more of the top tier threat Dodrio with its insane ability early bird that perfectly counters sleep.
The numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you!
god that ability sucks. they need to buff it to also give you a +1 speed boost every time you wake up from sleep
Sleep is just a cousin of death.
Nah its the free version, and dreams are the ads
A NY State of Mind *starts dancing*
Npc
@@Tetzll123it’s a rap lyric, you NPC
Sleep is just death being shy
Crazy how terrains were introduced in gen 6 but feels gen 7 due to the tapus
Yeah there were no automatic terrain setters in gen 6, and the moves to set them up were quite obscure and not really worth it. But hey, Psychic Terrain was introduced in Gen 7 with Tapu Lele
Sort of like how weather was introduced in Gen II but feels more like a Gen III due to abilities
@@carucath97Also because of Castform and Weather Ball becoming a thing
@@carucath97tbh I think terrains are still really under used when compared to weather which is a shame
I was about to mention that.
I can’t believe they would consider banning going bed tim sleepy mimimimimi, this is insane
Eepy in shambles
Blame the rng
Amusingly enough Sleep was banned in Gen 1 UU, which led to Hypno getting banned because Lead Hypno was weak to being put to sleep. So when that counterplay was removed it became a big problem.
I was thinking about this. But I do want to ask what Pokémon dropped off because they couldn’t give sleep
@@eeveewithcoffee9554short answer: nearly every grass type
Hmm kinda makes you wonder if the counterplay to all the busted threats in OU might have been something they already banned lol
@eeveewithcoffee9554 Tangela, Venasaur, and Poliwrath were hit the hardest by the Sleep Ban. Haunter wasn't affected that much as it's still a great Pokemon in Gen 1 UU without Hypnosis.
@@eeveewithcoffee9554 Amoonguss is gonna drop to NU with this rule 😭
“Inaccurate, high value sleep moves on fast offensive threats are a problem”
We hear you. Hypnosis accuracy increased to 100%.
To be fair, that's just spore.
Good to see darkrai finally beating the fraud allegations
Something to note is that in legends Arceus, they changed how sleep works, replacing by the drowsy effect where you can still attack but there is a chance where your pokemon doesn't move, somewhat like paralysis and confusion, but it makes the drowsy pokemon take more damage than usual.
Now i don't know if this is more fair and balanced compared to normal sleeping moves but it is funny to point out that even Gamefreak wanted to change the mechanics of Freeze and Sleep to a more reasonable and balanced state. It is a damn shame they didn't bring these to SV.
(Edit: I am looking at the replies and now I feel like my comment left the target audience)
Since SV and PLA were developped at the same time, it wouldn't surprise me if in gen 10 they would change it for good
Both games were developed at the same time, so those modified status conditions were just an experiment
Frostbite yes
Drowsy no, it's just sleep but more RNG
I hope they rework sleep so bad, it just seems a little cheap. Maybe make it so if you get hit you wake up
Tbf, Frostbite would be absolute Hell.
After listning to you and blunder talk about this the issue seems to be hypnosis on a pokemon (Darkrai, Valiant and Ninetails) not sleep itself also that you 2 should do more discussions together
Yea so maybe just ban hypnosis. Spore mons are ok even smeargle isn't overwhelming who cares
As the great artist Gen 1 UU Tentacrule says
"I never sleep because sleep is the cousin of death"
He then proceeded to wrap me for 7 turns and vaporise me with a hydro pump, truly an insane moment.
Next ban confusion. Then paralysis. Then set up moves.
One interesting strategy that I’ve thought recently is using stall teams as a real life spore or hypnosis. Is this viable?
Truly an insane strat.
I wanna get off fun bro wild ride.
I think we should ban all attacking moves as well, they do damage which knocks out Pokémon
This is true and sleep should be a 1 hit knock out because being asleep is basically the same as being unconscious
I think we should ban pokemon too because if you have a pokemon that means it can be knocked out
@@eliad1014
Now this is just outrageous, there needs to be a clause in this that doesn't ban Gholdengo
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Oh of course, how else would we be able to stop the inconceivably strong threat which is status moves that target your enemy, which can assist in knocking out a Pokémon.
Now imagine if Darkrai still had its signature Dark Void at 80% accuracy...
PD: No, I'll never forget Game Freak until they fix Dark Void
no forget Smeargle instead he's the one who did it
@@Lightpaladin720all they had to do was prevent Smeargle from learning Dark Void
@@ItsYuhBoyyyy and they did and nerf dark void
@@Lightpaladin720 therefore Dark Void doesn’t need to be nerfed anymore😂
@@Lightpaladin720 I don't forget it, nor forgive it. But IT WAS Game Freak who lowered the accuracy even after making it so only Darkrai could use it.
So a 60% variance is nothing but inconsistent banworthy problems.
But a 10% to 30% chance to burn, paralyze or freeze as extra option is skillfull gameplay........?
10% is basically nothing
Scald is cancer but nintendo themselves already directly solved this problem by removing scald from most pokemon except milotic/volcanion/alololololololololololomola
Freeze has already been a topic of controversy for years now, and you can play around burn and para chance with immunities and things that don't care about the status. EVERYTHING loses to sleep unless you run something unviable that's immune.
It's time to put the Smogon council to sleep I'm afraid
Frankly, paralysis is more high-variance than sleep and on average gives more value while also lasting throughout an entire match and having a much wider variety of Pokemon and moves that can inflict it. So aside from gen 5 where, due to mechanics, sleep is utterly unfixably broken, I don't think sleep should be banned. It's weird to me that the OU council is looking into this in the first place, as Darkrai and Iron Valiant are the only OU-ranked mons with sleep moves atm. If Darkrai is broken because of sleep, then ban it back into Ubers, duh. Meanwhile Valiant missing a Hypnosis often means it just dies on the spot because it's a glass cannon.
If Hypnosis itself is too high-variance because of, for example, that Ting-lu situation brought up in the video, then ban Hypnosis. Sleep Powder and Spore are perfectly fine to play around.
Would people then use Dark Void? It’s only 10% less accurate
@@wafflebroz Maybe? Hard to say, but if Hypnosis gets banned and then Dark Void Darkrai actually becomes a problem, then I think the issue clearly lies with Darkrai and it should just be sent back to Ubers.
i just think people hating on Darkrai
i just think people hating on Darkrai
People were like "Oh y'all bullied Darkrai for its fall from grace? HERE YA GO"
Wait so because dark void is bad, so they use hypnosis, making sleep even more inconsistent, which makes it more uncompetitive.
That’s so crazy
Dark Void is 50% accuracy, Hypnosis is 60% accuracy. So using Hypnosis makes it more consistent than Dark Void.
@@Erzz197Pretty sure they're talking about old Dark Void with its 80% accuracy
Dark void originally made darkrai to consistent which made it Ubers while hypnosis makes it not consistent which just makes fighting one unfun
If it’s consistent you can create good counterplay and if its inconsistent you can’t counterplay it, which kinda is hilarious
It's more about the fact that Darkrai is an extremely badly designed pokemon that should have never been made. Next thing you know they will add a legendary with high speed that can reliably freeze everything
The OU council is willing to suspect a status before Gholdengo and King Gambit...
YEAH WTF? Why am I still in my Trauma state of not wanting to play OU because I might face Gambit?
Sorry I suppress it so I didn't even realize it myself but like...
OU council is very Sus this gen. Even NatDex council realized their problem (and tera problem too).
@@icycrybaby NatDex hm...
I wonder.
@icycrybaby They are not as bad as the gen 5 you council.
It's genuinely sad that as awful as vgc is, its still more competitive than the current OU format.
Fitting that the generation that revists Unova is the same generation that is also considering a sleep ban
what? i thought it was paldea
@@why3994The DLC takes place in Unova, you just can't tell because we don't explore the region itself
@@rjante2236the music being a remix is cool
I get that the inaccuracy of Hypnosis has a chance to create seriously frustrating situations, but that feels like a slippery slope to start down. Plenty of good plays and counterplay as a whole is limited by move accuracy, particularly in relation to prediction and making a switch. Its worth noting that there *is* a bit of a difference between Hynosis and, say, Focus Blast, as the person clicking the move isnt necessarily the one who gets punished for the miss. Still though, banning sleep outright seems a bit extreme
It's 2029, Smogon has added a Crit Clause where crits are disabled besides in moves that always crit, as the chance to crit makes a game unfun and uncompetitive
It's 2034, Smogon has added an Accuracy Clause where only 100% accurate moves can be used, as missing makes a game unfun and uncompetitive
It's 2039, Smogon has added an Side-Effect Clause where only moves without chance to have an extra effect can be used, as they makes a game unfun and uncompetitive.
Exactly.
The logic they're using applies to Focus Blast, too, as does anything that flinches or paralyzes.
@joao20able In 2040 Smogon has updated Pokemon Showdown, where an AI plays the game in its head and decides the winner instantly. There's no need to play the game when everything's completely binary!
@@aprinnyonbreak1290It's about agency. The player using focus blast is choosing to take the risk of missing. The person fighting it has counterplay like switching in resists. Sleep is the opposite. The opponent is forced to interact with the blind luck if you click a sleep move. Nothing viable switches into hypnosis so it's just a gamble.
@@SPZ-gv2on
Literally just put Sleep Talk on a choiced pokemon. They usually have a fourth slot they couldn't care less about anyways. Sleep Talk is probably going to come up more often than whatever was being crammed into that last slot at any rate.
Ubers handled this just fine back in the stone age of gens 4 and 5, with more consistent, more powerful sleep. Having something to switch into focus blast is a bigger ask than putting Sleep Talk in one of the less valuable moveslots on the team.
It's even less of an ask than hazard control, since literally everything gets Sleep Talk, and it fits on choiced pokemon.
The counterplay is just as there and available as it is for anything else "inconsistent".
Any argument around centralizing anything around one pokemon must be redirected to Gholdengo's desk.
I've said this before in blunder's video as well. Sleep is arguably in its weakest state ever in gen 9 OU. If the issue is darkrai specifically, then suspect darkrai, there is no reason to push pokemons like amoonguss, which is one of the rare checks of valiant, to complete irrelevancy.
Mostly because we didn't get better sleep user to keep up with the power creep like eithier way i hated when breloom was viable in OU and sleep clause is uggly talking about rework of the Clause to have something more clean is not a Bad idea
It's wild to me that there were people out here pointing out that unbanning Darkrai was a bad idea for a variety of reasons, including how much value Iron Valiant can squeeze out of Hypnosis, and now instead of admitting that they maybe made a mistake the OU Council is discussing nuking sleep to avoid admitting that they screwed up by dropping broken threats into a broken meta. Yeah people are quick to say "Darkrai isn't even top 5 dark types in OU" but it and Valiant are still A- on the VR. It's astonishing to me that you have a Pokemon that's as viable as Iron Valiant, Skeledirge, and Cinderace and people still try to argue that it's "meh." It's just kind of amazing that we're at this point where the council will propose banning sleep as a whole instead of just suspecting or quick banning Darkrai and maybe Valiant afterwards
I think sleep should have been banned from the start so for me this is kinda exciting, sleep has always felt like such a RNG dependant strat, it really just adds luck into the game needlessly, and it always has been a luck based strat
I hate sleep. I'm all for cutting as much rng as possible from singles frankly
Council was held at gunpoint by the playerbase to unban darkrai. I called darkrai would be broken because its strong enough with every other move, but a 60% chance to completely invalidate counterplay on top of an ability that does chip if you roll the 60% is insane.
@@calebmon but the same could be said to the other status conditions except burn, poison and badly poison
@sephirotten2413 yes Confusion and paralysis add randomness to the battle but Confusion only requires a switch to remove and Paralysis has a guranteed effect (lowering speed) which means that it is much less an effect where you hope and pray, for RNG to allow you to auto win and more like a permanent speed drop with a small chance to make a foe not move, if sleep were like either of these statuses then I wouldn't be advocating its removal but it is entirely chance with no counterplay other than waiting to wake up, you can't switch to remove the effect, you just roll RNG to see if you wake up. It is much worse than the other statuses because of that.
This just in: smogon is banning team building as it adds to much variance and is uncompetitive, everyone must now use the same exact team that the ou council has selected
Loooool
Banning sleep is insane.
It's Smogon, of course it's insane
Smogon be like You MUST Stay Awake. Literallg 1984
@@grrman It's also a Jimothy Cool channel meme.
Banning hypnosis in particular would make more sense to me. Darkrai and Iron Valiant getting bullshit wins off hypnosis is way too common right now, and are the real problem.
This is insane folks.
Rapidly losing faith in the smogon council. Their proposals lately have been seemingly random
Tbf the council is arguably better than ever and perhaps one of the reasons proposals seem 'random' is due to how much more democratic and open the process is
Yeah... Like at this point I've seen Gholdango counter everything but sleep as of late.
Smogon: "Hey, this thing is extremely uncompetitive and plays counterintuitively to a skill-focused format"
"tHeiR pRoPosaLs HaVE bEen cOMplEtEly rAnDOm"
@@BorkBigFrighten2 If that's the case then why not ban Crits... Oh wait they can't, because like it or not RNG is part of the core game and can't really be entirely removed. Thus that envisioned Truly competitive paradise the council is trying to create is literally impossible.
@diegomedina9637 I never understand why people make this argument. Just because there are RNG elements to a game doesn't mean that you can't tailor the experience to be more skill-expressive and competitive.
There are variable numbers of turns on sleep, so does that suddenly mean that we give up on making a more skill-expressive and interactive format and just turn the game into spamming Guillotine?
It's hyperbolic statements like these that completely undermine the point of Smogon: Taking a beloved and popular franchise and making the experience more enjoyable and skill-expressive in a PvP setting.
I mean, by the logic that you're using, was the official Pokemon format that was used back in Generation 1 invalid and pointless since they couldn't suddenly reprogram the game to disallow multiple Pokemon being put to Sleep?
Card games can't un-print cards, so why do they bother making banlists? Etc etc.
Smogon tier leaders:
Let's ban...
*Spins the wheel*
SLEEP!! That's perfect!
They took out ghold out of the wheel when they got paid
Battle Stadium Singles exists and doesnt have sleep clause, while it pales in comparisom to VGC solely in the *west* it is in fact a huge a huge thing in eastern countries and deserves to be acknowledged, im not even trying to use it as an argument here as someone whos played both 6v6 and official 3v3 for a long time now and recognize the differences, but it deserves to be acknowledged as frankly its playerbase is even larger than the active smogon playerbase
Life just hasn’t been the same without The money got different as the outro music
Funny that the inaccuracy of Hypnosis is what is making it good here
This is straight up changing the game's mechanics which goes against the tiering policies of smogon. Sleep was banned in BW because it was broken in a literal way. But to ban sleep would only prove all of the rumors about smogon. Sleep is more than just a mechanic, it's a facilitator of strategies and to ban other viable strategies because of the brokeness of one would be a real DPP frosslas move.
Yeah they are trying to make a game Desing for doubles into singles and ban random stuff ignoring the big centralizing problems
Half of the reason this is even in debate is because of the exact opposite actually. Sleep clause is not usable in modern gen games and is still proving to not really fix the issuee caused by sleep. Blanket banning all sleep moves changes no mechanics at all, it's simply a ban like banning any broken legendary.
This is cope- Everything you mentioned as a negative for sleep IS part of the stratagy. For example: you could stay in on Darkrai and risk the sleep, OR send the sleep sack in. not to mention the teambuilding you could do AROUND sleep, like sap sipper pokemon or a status immune mon like Gliscor or Garganacle.
They shouldnt ban sleep. Its been manageable now since gen 5 and is a factor of the game you need to play around.
And im a guy that rarely if ever uses sleep moves on his team
Like come on at this point people know that RNG is in the game.
If I'm here with my Gliscor and they got a Darkrai on the other side you best believe I'm hyper analyzing them like Light does L and I assume they are doing the same for me.
"Are they going to go for Hypnosis knowing I'm going to protect? Or... Are they going to Nasty Plot? Maybe they'll hit Ice beam to try the waters? If I switch I give them the chance to nasty plot. They want the Plot so they can kill any mon after if I EQ right now... But then if they Ice beam they just kill me and it starts again unless I use one of my faster mons I don't want to reveal their scarf yet..."
"Maybe if I Tera Water right here... But then if they Hypnosis it was better to protect. But wait... Maybe... NO because if they Nasty Plot on my Tera Water Protect... Actually wait... What if I toxic maybe... If I'm a specially DEF Gliscor I could live it but I'm not so the only move in this case might really be to call out the idea that because I haven't moved they know I'm thinking of their move they would go over the idea that I would switch from wanting to protect to wanting to attack meaning at this point they think I'm going to switch so I won't Tera and I'll PROTECT!"
@@zelz3011 true like we shouldn’t ban sleep but instead suspect test darkrai
EXACTLY!@@sephirotten2413
That’s crazy that hypnosis’ low accuracy is actually the issue in this scenario, this generation is really getting crazy
If darkrai had dark void unerfed it would still be ubers
It's more like if you gave anything better than Breloom or Amoonguss Spore it would immediately be banned to ubers and never get out. Those two are fairly terrible Pokémon in terms of stats that stay afloat because of their insane move. The inconsistency keeps the powerlevel low enough that everything with Hypnosis doesn't immediately become a problem.
@@FenShen-us9tvyeah? And it wouldn't be weird for Darkrai to stay ubers because Dark void is good. If Ubers had a problem with sleep they could put it in Anything Goes. That's how tiers work. However it is extremely unusual for tiering and rules discussions to happen because a move is bad. That's why people are saying the situation is weird.
@@TheWizardMus I think it's a fad, someone on the council probably lost to hypnosis Darkrai and wanted to ban it.
@@Lankpants Right but in this case the fact that hypnosis on darkrai is inconsistent makes it so that it's actually better in some cases than a more accurate sleep move, because Darkrai is just naturally so good that if you throw in a sleep sac against it and hypnosis misses it can just kill you sometimes or hypnosis again if you switch to a darkrai check
The fact online singles has a council that decides what is or isn't healthy for the game and can effectively do away with entire mechanics, no matter how justifiable the reason is, is why I will never seriously play on PS and will keep buying new games to play doubles on cart.
The OU council needs a suspect test. They keep proposing wild sweeping changes instead of letting the meta settle. And when they do finally act they ignore the elephant in the room and dont touch the *literally* meta defining pokemon, Goldengo.
Like seriously. Removing hazards is so hard because of that shit weasel of a mon, how is he not an over centralizing pokemon?
But no. Well ban sleep because darkrai won a coinflip.
If Gholdengo was banned, something else would just take its place
But yeah, they definitely should wait for the meta to settle down
@yosh9192 nothing else can deny hazard removal quite like it. It compresses a lot of functions into a single mon. It denys all forms of removal with its typing and ability. It stuffs stall with its typing and ability. And it serves as a pretty dang good attacker. It is by no means free as shit like it used to be but the mf is a problem. If it was gone, we'd have to start finding multiple mons to deal with hazard removal and stall instead of compressing it all into one mon. It's not healthy to have him and him alone do this. THATS the issue, and reducing it to "oh but someone else will be strong" is kinda silly. I'm fine with strong mons. I'm not fine with meta defining options with little counterplay.
“Wah!! Wah!! We unbanned Darkari and now it’s causing problems in the meta!! Wah!! 😭”
I personally think the use of Hypnosis will die down as more consistent sets are discovered. I wouldn't act on Darkrai/Val yet unless they're successful in tournament battles.
That would take a super long time
Plus what are u gonna do? Use Ariados or Hypno?
It's the lack of reliability that makes it problematic. A 60% accurate move potentially deciding the match.
@@thereaIitsybitsyspider That's nothing new, Focus Blast only has 10% more accuracy and can (and has) decide matches. So you're saying that we should ban Focus Blast then basically.
@@AceAviations2 I'm just presenting the thought process behind the argument. Although I think that hypnosis isn't very comparable to Focus Blast. Sleep gives you potentially multiple free turns. You could kill one mon with a focus blast vs setting up and sweeping a whole team with hypnosis.
I think there are more problematic things than sleep. Would rather see other offense enablers like Gholdengo and light clay get tested first.
@@AceAviations2It's about player agency. The player using focus blast is choosing to take the risk of missing. The person fighting it has counterplay like switching in resists. Both players have to interact with the risk willingly. Sleep is the opposite. The opponent is forced to interact with the blind luck if you click a sleep move. You make both people start rolling dice. Nothing viable switches into hypnosis so it's just a gamble.
small correction : terrains were introduced in gen 6.
in gen 7 they got turned into abilities though lol.
grass pelt gogoat was made to showcase the grassy terrain.
Just another "oh no ting-lu fissure stomping tantrum"-esque issue. If there's a ban coming, I'll bet on it landing on Darkrai again. Easiest solution, plenty of precedent. That said, I don't think a ban is coming. Some high ELO folks whining about the impact of RNG, again.
I wouldn't miss sleep, but there is a lot of joy in using something like Banette in Gen 3 against a Gengar or Breloom and then the enemy stays in and clicks Spore/Hypnosis
Can't believe the unnecessary Dark Void nerf went from "Screw you, Darkrai!" to Darkrai screwing OU. Like, damn, with an 80% accu Sleep ma' man would keep in Ubers, where Electric Terrain is still a thing.
Might as well ban paralysis, freeze, and flinch while we're at it
Also confusion and
Also make Gholdengo the only usable Pokémon and ban all others. No items, Gholdengo only, Final Destination.
You CAN'T ban paralysis, freeze, and flinch. That's not how it works! You CAN ban sleep, and in doing so remove a mod which would never be accepted if it was proposed today
@@Aquilenne Reminder that swagger and OHKO moves are banned
@@mtk77621 According to the website, Swagger isn't banned in OU outside of gens 5 and 6. Also, even if it was, it wouldn't be the only confusion or paralysis causing moves (confuse ray, thunder wave, glare, nuzzle, hurricane, etc.), same with OHKOs not being the only
I really think that paralysis and freezing are more broken than sleep; In para, you lose half your speed (which is very important in this meta) and it makes your movements have a 75% chance of attacking, that is brutal. Freeze is more difficult because you don't even know when you will defrost. On the other hand, sleep, it is only 1 to 3 turns, and that aside from the fact that the most difficult sleep users are darkrai and iron Valiant, with hypnosis and its 60%, it is a very high risk, they will probably lose from an attack if you fail
Yeah that Para Speed Nerf I think is way more important than people bring it up. I've not been Para'd lots of times but just because my speed is 50% Slower I can't outspeed their damn Pult with my Scarf mon and that losses me the game.
Freeze the only thing I've felt is bad aobut it is that it doesn't have a set limit like 10 or 7 turns before you defrost as well as I feel more moves should guarantee your defrost or should defrost you after 2 uses like Aura Sphere or something things that feel like they break through the ice with that like Aura like energy kinda like DBZ stuff and such or other series where they have this "Willpower" that makes the ice crack.
Why ban sleep when you can just ban Darkrai again? Seems like Darkrai is the only one really abusing it…
There's an Iron Valiant set with Calm Mind/Moonblast/Hypnosis/Hex @ Tera Ghost that is also very dangerous. That said, this same set is still effective with Thunder Wave over Hypnosis to accomplish a similar effect more consistently in exchange for being less impactful.
Because Darkrai is shit.
Valiant is using it too.
We should ban all moves that can miss and crits, so there is 0 variance 😂
Every Team is the same... They're riding my brain... Ladder games will not change. Cause all these teams the same...
I admit, another game got me finished, switched at the wrong time oh no I didn't.
No guard seismic toss/night shade metagame goes hard 🔥🔥🔥
Welp... Goodbye Stone Edge.
@@diegomedina9637 NBOOOOOOOO! MY GREAT STONE EDGE!
@@zelz3011 Too RNG my dude. We're not doing this sh*t anymore it seems
I'm starting to think Smogon should just make their own game. It has long had a claim to legitimacy by providing a way to access a metagame that could exist but for the limitations of cartridge. But the more stuff that is artificially cut out of the meta, the more it becomes less of a "purer" pokemon and more of a copyright infringing derivative game.
I'm sure it would be forgotten because all the decisions they make remove spice of the game. They are too meticulous for their own good, making it bland and forgettable.
@@N12015 I think the community has a established paradigm of what the OU singles meta game has to look like and will ban stuff to create that meta.
I just love the Autumn Voyage playing in the background. RuneScape is insane.
I didn’t think about it in the sense that the opponent missing grants a whole new situation, wonderful insights from Jimothy here
it seems kind of bizarre to me that in a metagame with only two actually viable sleep setters(and i'm gonna be real i feel like nuzzle might actually be more helpful on smeargle with hatterene and gholdengo and sleep clause and because ultimately sleep is temporary, if you're gonna weaken the lead and get a hazard off before croaking you might as well weaken them permanently) and a number of extremely problematic setup sweepers that sleep is what's being focused on. like, i had a whole paragraph about how volcarona is so unreasonable good at abusing tera and can be one of several flavours of teeth punching agony to deal with but that is completely pointless because we already know it's a pain with tera because it already got banned for that exact reason! why is sleep what is being discussed right now over the metagame currently being on fire? i've hardly even seen darkrai at all.
Because a lot of casual players don't want to get rid of the generational gimmick that is annihilating the balance of the tier.
@@Peacock__ and i understand that, i also don't want terastallization removed. for every pokemon it breaks there are 10 made significantly funner. i don't know how i'd play ou without my beloved choice scarf tera steel iron head water tauros to keep me safe from treacherous fairy types...
i was never talking about banning tera. i just think the moth needs to go back to the hole from whence it came, and some other mons. mainly kingambit, roaring moon, kyurem, possibly iron boulder though i think i need more time to think about that one and that's about it
@@big__shell
If the mechanic is overpowered, it must be banned or at least open terra needs to be tested. It doesn't really matter if it makes some pokemon more fun, if the mechanic is overpowered it should be removed. That's all I care about. If the pokemon are fine without terra, that's a problem with terra.
We're doing the gen 5 thing where everyone seems to want to do everything but kill the mechanic causing the balance issues.
@@big__shell while I would like tera gone because its mostly in favor of highly offensive mons (because of the extra stab boost and keeping your old stab for some reason) the fact that tera isn't in open team sheets is insane to me. Like seriously why haven't we at least done that yet. This game is almost entirely based around knowledge and making good predictions. People can come out of nowhere with the weirdest tera that just counters your team. But oh no hypnosis is too high variance. What utter nonsense.
@@Peacock__ the thing is, tera is a mechanic that is inherently extremely synergistic with certain pokemon archetypes. on a setup sweeper like volcarona or kingambit its usage is very different from a wall like garganacl or a choice locked mon like crawdaunt. and, generally speaking, being able to use an extra turn to get an almost free quiver dance or swords dance or dragon dance or what have you is significantly more high impact than how other pokemon use tera.
saying "if the pokemon are fine without tera that's a problem with tera" is misguided if you ask me. what you're doing is cherry-picking specific examples of pokemon that synergise so well with tera that they're banworthy. this dangerous combination just does not exist in the same way on literally every other pokemon in the game. no, tera is not the problem here. saying that would be a blatant oversimplification. the problem is the way that tera interacts with the pokemon.
Banning sleep is stupid. Smogon are thinking just like every rpg developer where status moves are worthless and all that works is pure damage and speed
Spare a thought for the real victim of a potential sleep ban
RIP RestTalk Dondozo. May you wall broken threats up in heaven.
Going down the rabbit hole of rng mitigation - Evasion, OHKO moves, Sleep, Para, Flinch and crits is really a bad idea. In a true competitive game NON of these would be allowed. The 6.25% chance to do 50% more damage and ignore defensive boots/offensive drops. The 25% chance to not move and be slower than everything in the game which you can never lose naturally.
By having many of these factors going at once it creates the 'always an out' feeling and 'always a chance to rng lose' which is part of the 'fun' of the game.
But this one with hypnosis might just be darkrai showing its not washed up. Though it'd be very fun if they banned hypnosis because all of the other sleep options are basically fine options and is a much cleaner soloution for now.
I wonder if there's a custom meta or something where there's NO RNG whatsoever?
Any move that can miss, will miss, any move that can Crit can Crit, and you will always hit the highest damage roll per attack, that kinda thing
I know there's at least a ROM hack or two that's like this, but I wonder if anyone's implemented anything like this for Showdown and what it'd look like
@@VerkatosEnseiI believe there is, I don't remember the name
You're next, Thunder Wave
7:58 what were these examples? 🤔 I couldnt understand and autocaptions said that was lv 80 kyogre. What is this tho?
So you think the "bomb" factor of fast and strong sleep users such as Darkrai and Iron Valiant is the problem, not sleep itself? If something like Amoonguss or Breloom hits a sleep it's not going to win the game by itself against a good team, but with Darkrai that's possible if the matchup is good. I suppose I can see the reasoning why.
They straight up banned a whole status effect after 20 years of competitive singles 💀
I'm really losing faith in the cousil. First suggesting the kokoloko method, now this.
What is the issue with one guy suggesting something that didn't even happen.
First they took our signature move from us, now they go for its special needs cousin! I say no more! Justice for all! Let's ban all status moves or none!
Seriously though, that dark void got basically neutered with 50% accuracy so darkrai had to switch to using basic hypnosis only for that to be a problem as well is absolutely hilarious. Personally I think it shouldn't be banned, after all it's already limited to affecting just one mon. What I could see is banning hypnosis/sing/spore/sleep powder but allowing yawn, which you can play around, in singles. For doubles imho it would be best if gamefreak stepped in and made every sound attack wake up sleepers. Your Ogerpon is asleep? Let Sylveon sing you the song of its people with boomburst.
Darkai in OU of ANY format always felt like an insane idea to me. They are the primary culprit for this sleep issue and should be banned to UUbers or something.
people use the word “uncompetitive” in reference to rng factors in pokemon. That is incorrect for two reasons:
- uncompetitive means you CAN’T compete. That means the game is effectively in single player mode between two players. A good example is Akuma back in older SF games. His air fireball occupies a dimension that no character can deal with. Jumping fireball is effectively a checkmate situation.
- rng elements, especially in pokemon where it is a conscious and intentional design element specifically to avoid everything coming down to a calculation, is not “uncompetitive”. It disrupts momentum, that’s it.
This is something pokemon players cannot seem to accept. Risk/reward is a part of the game and players are going to have to square with that. Until they do, there will always be collective outrage over something “annoying”.
Smogon actually define uncompetitive with respect to their metagames: "elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant".
I can see why the Hypnosis gamestates with Darkrai and Valiant to some degree merits at least some discussion about being uncompetitive or unhealthy, but it's limited to this so I think the only bans that need to be on the table are Darkrai or Hypnosis.
@@kieranstockley1946 Like I've said before, Smogon likes to pretend to speak intellectually, but their statements are rife with intellectual error.
What is "the most skillful play" ? Is there a way to calculate what the correct choice is? Just the fact that people make mistakes alone means "the most skillful play" is a concept that is dubious at best, especially since players will differ on what they believe that is.
I will reiterate: GameFreak has INTENTIONALLY included rng elements into pokemon battles for the purpose of disrupting momentum. The goal here is to manufacture the nature of risk in an otherwise mathematical interaction.
The wording of the smogon argument is just an overly verbose way of stating: if something happens that disrupts my momentum based on how I *expected* the turn to go based on my knowledge and calculations, then it is uncompetitive".
It's literally just crying about RNG. The examples given are all edge case scenarios of the match running away due to a series of luck and bad choices. I haven't seen anyone make a legitimate argument that, post Sleep Clause, sleep moves are a legitimate stranglehold on player agency.
Because the reality is, they're not. Sleep being a major disruption of a match is always an edgecase scenario which is only due to specific mons with specific sets getting a major and lucky momentum boost thanks to a risky play. You can argue that, due to positioning or innate strengths (such as high speed, offensive pressure due to set variety) some mons mitigate their risk of using sleep, but so what? That's a fight sometimes. Pretending that every aspect of a battle should be calculable and predetermined is a grave misunderstanding of what a battle is.
The change of the outro music ):
Always sleep was broken. I read some posts from the experts, and I really think that the priority right now is Gholdengo.
It completely ruins the metagame. Without it, other issues could be analyzed well.
Gliscor is currently broken thanks to Gholengo.
Darkraid was always in Ubers, ban it and that's it. The game itself is quite random, hypnosis is no exception, it always fails.
Next video: Ice moves that can freeze... will be banned
To protect against spore and sleep powder, I’m not sure if you’ve heard of it but there’s this item called the safety goggles?
And there's a whole lot of mons that are already immune to both by either typing or abilities
I'm commenting before watching the video so yeah, could be talking a bit of nonsense here.
But the hysteria around this is silly. The topic was casually raised specifically for the purpose of exploring what a sleep ban might look like through open discussion. Smogon isn't 'planning' to do anything. It's arguably not even remotely likely to happen. It's just normal open-ended discussion about the state of the meta and what could (or could not) improve it.
Some theories don’t need to be explored or entertained.
If only there was another move that Darkrai could learn to put the enemy to sleep with better accuracy. Maybe something like a signature move to take advantage of its signature ability and lore. If only such a move existed..... GameFreak.
seems like a dumb idea, looking at conversations about it it seems like people just don't want to adapt with the variety of available counterplay.
My only thought for most of the video was, 'It just sounds like Darkrai should be banned from OU again'
To UUbers with the boi!
I don't understand. Do they want UU Darkrai? I thought folk were question it being worth it in OU since it lost its signature move and effectively didn't have an ability without snagging Hypnosis.
I'm legitimately a newb, I acknowledge that I'm a newb; I'm just curious about this entire situation. Gamefreak nerfed Darkrai, then it's gonna get nerfed further by the players...
Imagine creating Quark Drive and then not putting ANY good electric terrain setters in the entire game. Guess I should've expected as much from Game Freak.
This is from the same devs that made the sword armor and gun armor pokemon but didnt give them sharpness and megalauncher as abilities
Well they put Miraidon in the game, which is a phenomenal electric terrain setter. But yeah another good one would have been much appreciated
Personally I never find Darkrai hypnosis that threatening and at the end of the day that set is usually only good if you're lucky, and there's a lot of strategies that are really broken but only if you're lucky.
It might be weird, but what if Smogon did a ban on Hypnosis, Sleep Powder, and maybe Sing? It stops high-variance, volatile situations like a Darkrai lead bricking one of your Pokemon early in a game, or an Iron Valiant lucking a 2v1 end game, or a low-tier Quiver Dancer affording itself free turns of set up on dice rolls. But Spore can be allowed with the same counter play that we usually use against sleep-spamming Pokemon. It seems a little counterintuitive, but if the problem is high variance situations sparked by low-accuracy sleep moves, then maybe this would be the way to go to most directly address that problem.
Weezing Galar is pretty good actually its just that you're not using his terrain over the other abilities
Just wanted to let you know i really liked your delivery on this one. Your voice and wordchoices felt super engaging and interesting.
Love your work big boy keep it up❤
Smogon considering banning Sleep or Darkrai while still ignoring the Open Tera Type or banning Goldengho (who is immune to sleep and manhandles Darkrai) is so predictable.
Terra requires a community ban, but a lot of the casual player base seems to put "Wow new generational gimmick" over actually balancing the tier
@@Peacock__ : I don't want a ban, I just want Tera types to be revealed in Team Preview. If VGC does it, why doesn't Smogon?
@@thebumpercar1344 Because it would require a community vote. The first community vote didn't have a specific option for it. And most of the casual player base will just auto vote no for everything regarding terra if there's any prospects of bans. I don't think the council are able to repeatedly able to make votes for terra either, which would cause problems if the community eventually realises that its broken further down the line.
The pokemon that abuse terra wouldn't give a fuck about open terra anyway.
@@Peacock__ : That first community vote was a fucking mistake. Especially since Smogon kept going "We'll postpone our decision on Tera once the DLC drops". The pokemon that got banned because of Tera are all the ones whose main complaint was "If you guessed their Tera type wrong YOU LOSE".
Look, I might be one of the bigger pro ghold ban people, but saying it manhandles Darkrai is stupid. Yes you’re immune to hypnosis, but you just drop to dark pulse.
Although most spore users are good without spore (Breloom+Amoongus would probably stay in RU-UU) I think Darkrai is the big problem here because of sleep being on traditionally slow or predictable pokemon. Recently, Hilligant got banned from RU because of its ability to run V-dance, 2 stabs, and either sleep powder or tera blast. It had way to much versatility. I think darkrai is in a similar situation. However, I’ve always believed there was Liligant counterplay. I think we should wait awhile, before outright banning sleep (if they’re gonna ban anything, ban darkrai as banning sleep significantly hurts the viablity of many Pokémon in OU)
Oh no, the consequences of the tiering actions are exactly what we thought they would be
Toedscruel usage rise? Maybe? Mycelium Might won't affect Spore anymore then.
I agree with you about just banning Darkrai instead. Sleep is powerful, but it isn't an issue except with Darkrai, banning sleep altogether is just a bad ban.
They do not want to even play the same game anymore. Absolutely ridiculous imo. I could see the dark void ban but coming after hypnosis is sad
Why are they talking about banning sleep but not Darkrai, the legendary that was uber since gen 4 with 125 base speed? Theres 0 other fast Pokemom running sleep moves in the meta. I swear Smogon makes no sense.
Not all of Smogon is run this way. It's just SV OU that's like this
@@thewrongsorcerer ive played on and off since gen 4 its always been like this, council is full of pompous dicks who take their "jobs" way too seriously and refuse to admit when they could ever be wrong, in this case refusing to admit maybe unbanning Darkrai wasnt a good idea.
How many times they nerfed Darkrai 6 times?
Lemme guess, you’re gonna have no opinion either way but slightly agree with whatever smogon does in the end like always. Wow such big brained centrist genius.
watch the video
RIP Breloom and Amoongus and anything else that used spore/sleep powder.
Bruh, why are they still on the Sleep Ban? They stealth banned it on Showdown Day 1 of Gen 8 cause they thought they could just ban stuff without people's input. People kicked up a fuss, and it was set back to Sleep Clause a few days later.
No one except the OU Council thinks Sleep should just be flat banned
How do you get those cool sprite avatars in showdown? I'm never able to get thoae options
I got dark void spammed by a darkrai and it was the most sickening experience that shit hit everytime
Amongus stocks will crumble
The Outro got different!
Smogon surprising 0 people lol
Gen 9 is such a mess. Its hard to get enthusiastic for a generation of Pokémon where each time you play one or two parts of your team ends up getting banned down the road.
IMO, Sleep is not the issue in OU. The format is already extremely hyper offensive to the point where anything giving a free turn can be the turning point of a battle. I've watched replies where a single misprediction has ended in a 6-0 wipe or even other status moves. Sleep is already heavily nerfed.
I wonder what the metagame would look like if Game Freak would have taken inspiration from other RPGs and have sleeping pokemon always wake up on their turn after they are hit by an attack.
first time i’ve ever totally washed my hands of a generation of competitive and gone back to the older metas altogether. gen 9 ou council completely lost the plot awhile ago.
See also the low distribution of these anti-sleep terrain abilities in S/V after the removal of the Tapus: Galarian Weezing has Misty Surge and Pincurchin has Electric surge. OU is far out of reach for Pin and Galarian Weezing prefers Levitate or Neutralising Gas but it is ranked UU by usage and might not be able to stand up to the OU kings, Great Tusk, Kingambit etc.
Terrain is a gen six mechanic I believe not gen seven
I don’t know how the smogonites don’t understand this but random variance is built into the formula of Pokemon.
Sometimes you lose because of things completely out of your control, sometimes you win. The game is not bad or “uncompetitive” because something happens that’s “not in your control”. There are over 1000 pokemon and an infinite number of strategies and team compositions, you cannot prepare for every possible scenario.
The OU council’s inability to grasp this has created one of the most ridiculous cycles of competitive play.
Some mechanics are banned for being uncompetitive e.g Evasion boosting moves. There are also clauses in place in many Gens to mitigate variance E.G Freeze Clause in Gen 1 and Gen 3. These are all objective improvements to the competitive experience in my opinion.
This is also just a discussion not a concrete decision being made. Really don't understand the automatic negativity towards Smogon for just wanting to discuss a mechanic and gauge opinions
@@jimothycool there’s been multiple discussions this year and most of them have lead to a situation where gen 9 ou is bottlenecked to the point where very few people feel satisfied with it.
Immediately evasion is brought up and look at most of the Japanese players, it’s not a problem. Look at Freedom Cup stats, evasion was not some top tier strategy. People on the forums really thought Moody Scovillain was gonna cook. And especially in gen 9, the best non-restricted mon features a signature move which cannot miss. Something a lot of Smogon players are unaware of is Body Slam, Dragon Rush, and one hit KO moves all negate accuracy changes (Body Slam and Dragon Rush only for Minimize but let’s be honest if you let someone set up two Double Teams that’s on you man).
I bring this up because while Game Freak does plenty of ass backwards things, the one thing they don’t do is disregard singles Pokemon. Nintendo is a company which has and will sue individuals for using their likeness. Do you think Game Freak is unaware of arguably the biggest fan community for Pokemon?
If they’ve gone out of their way to nerf things like recovery, strip Pokemon of certain essential moves, and introduce items like Boots which is (primarily) a singles strategy, then the creators of this game think evasion, one hit KO moves, and other “uncompetitive” mechanics are worth remaining. Same with genning pokemon. They know people want a battle simulator but they’re not gonna do it because they want people to be, you know, pokemon trainers. Trade Pokemon from game to game through the years, make memories, sappy shit like that.
One kit KO moves are the natural counter to stall strategies, evasion is built into the way certain Pokemon are designed. I can see in early generations, there’s a better argument for these limitations because even Pokemon wasn’t making these games with competitive in mind. But now? Not a chance.
Conversational Nuclear Take: Buff all sleep moves to 100% chance to hit, but limit sleep to only 2 turns. It gives the sleeper the choice to stay or switch, same with the sleep inducer. If you switch, then you have the option of reading your opponent to bring your sleeper in to wake it up on a favorable match up. Or even mind game your opponent and bait in their sleeper for a cheeky KO.
Since sleep only lasts 2-3 turns anyways, it probably would be still pretty overpowered unless you give sleep some other nerf as well. Sure, it’s predictable, but it’s still a consistently powerful effect.
From Smogon’s end: I agree with Jimothy that banning Darkrai makes more sense than banning sleep as a whole.
From Game Freak’s end: They should nerf sleep so that a Pokemon wakes up if it gets hit by an attack. Maybe Psychic moves could be an exception (I think Temtem did something similar).
All I'm hearing is "Ban Darkrai".
Alt. Ban hypnosis I guess.