Church Historian: Here’s How I Approach Complex Church History - Dr. Steven C. Harper E0020
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- If you, or someone you love, has struggled to reconcile complex church history, join us in our conversation with Dr. Steven C Harper.
Exploring the mystery of multiple First Vision accounts, Stephen Jones sits down with BYU Professor Dr. Steven Harper, a renowned historian and expert on Latter-day Saint history.
They unravel the reasons behind the discrepancies and shed light on the broader implications for faith and history, guiding us toward a deeper understanding of this foundational event.
Credits:
Hosted by Stephen Jones
Written and Produced by Stephen Jones
Edited and Produced by Skyler Sorensen
“Let’s Get Real with Stephen Jones” is a Scripture Central original production.
Subscribe to Scripture Central's TH-cam:
www.youtube.com/ @scripturecentralofficial
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CHAPTERS
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:58 - Personal Experience with Disruptive History
00:06:30 - The Importance of Trust and the Challenge of Discerning Truth
00:10:26 - Approaching Troubling History and Thinking Fast and Slow
00:14:40 - Dealing with Contrary Information and the Role of Knowledge in Faith
00:16:59 - The Importance of Expectations in Learning and the Need for Context and Patience
00:20:59 - The Danger of Assumptions
00:23:52 - The Consequences of Ignoring Critical Thinking, the Importance of Faith, and the Role of Jesus Christ in Faith Crisis
00:28:29 - Different Approaches to Faith, Rationality, and Spirituality in Knowing
00:33:02 - Understanding Assumptions, Mental Health, and the Importance of Slowing Down
00:38:27 - Receiving Revelation
00:43:07 - The Doctrine of Christ, Repentance, and Conflict between Beliefs and Behavior
00:46:48 - Repentance, Rationalization, and the Role of Faith in Reconciling Dissonance
00:50:28 - The Importance of Scripture and Approaching Challenging History with Faith
00:55:33 - The Hermeneutics of Trust and Suspicion, and Interpreting the First Vision Accounts
01:00:42 - Interpreting Facts with Bias, Humility, and Diligence
01:03:16 - Challenging Assumptions in the First Vision Accounts
01:07:34 - Projecting Personal Assumptions, Calling of Joseph Smith
01:16:45 - Revelation and the Role of God in Different Faiths
01:20:38 - Interpreting the First Vision Accounts, Nature of God, and Spiritual Preparedness
01:32:45 - Understanding Covenants
01:39:00 - Role of Christ and Closing Thoughts
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Disclaimer:
THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF THE INDIVIDUAL CREATORS AND GUESTS ALONE AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF SCRIPTURE CENTRAL OR THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.
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When I am in depressive moments, i live on what I know, not what I am currently feeling.
I have offen said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, yet learning is essential. We are responsible for what we take in. That's when once you start on the path of learning, there is never an end.
Love Steven Harper! Such an amazing scholar!
Steven Harper may know some church history, but he is mainly a church apologist. This interview is a master class on how to ignore the difficult and troubling things about the church.
Steve Harper's dad was a great and kind man. He later served as a patriarch.
I love Steven Harper's approach to history and the way he expresses things. He spoke at a stake conference I attended a few years ago and I remember him saying something like "the critics and I know all the same facts", and that helped me see more clearly that faith and belief are a choice. Thank you for sharing!
Right, and where does doubting leave you? With no resources when the trials hit and the benefit of being buoyed up along the way.
It is not just members, but American as a whole do not understand how the academic discipline of history works.
The church portrays this bull crap feel narrative, just do what we tell you everything will be OK, don't worry we cannot lead you astray, if you follow our holy prophet then you can find christ. Pay no attention to the political moves we make, don't worry about the people we ex for telling the truth, submit to our "authorty" we know how to lead like jesus and it's like what a load of crap.
We got to set this notion of "prophet worship" aside and use our brains a little bit. Hierarchy in and of itself is a big part of the problem.
The church is bloated with administrative beuraracy, secretive about it's billions of dollars, and hardly says anything inspiring.
It's funny the more I put my faith in Jesus Christ the more I realize how curropt the church is
One of the classiest podcasts on TH-cam. Guests, interview style, lighting, production value, and editing is world class, thank you so much.
Thank you for this, as I've been struggling to be discerning and knowing what's me and what God's voice.
I am glad I have left the Church and I do not have to do the Mental Gymnastics that Dr. Harper goes through in this Video to try and make sense of the 4 different First Vision versions. President Joseph Fielding Smith even had problems with the different versions. That is why he removed the 1832 version from the church records only to add it back in after the Tanners showed its existence.
To approach the First Vision with skepticism like Vogel, and not with faith like Bushman. Makes more sense because "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
One thing he never address is the fact that there is NO record of the First Vision before 1832. Joseph Smith said he was persecuted "All his Days" after telling people right after of the First Vision. There so NO record of it EVER being mentioned. This is a huge problem to me. And he never even brings it up.
Anywhere else, but in the church, are we told that "It's natural to have different versions (of what happened) for different audiences".
EVERYWHERE else that would be called lying. The truth is the truth.
@@tombalderreeI believe we do give varying versions when we tell others of our experiences, depending on the audience or the situation. In conversations with individuals or groups of people, we humanes don't generally talk to each other in memorized speeches. If I am speaking to a relative or friend, I may give more details. To another, I may be answering a specific question they asked me. In other situations, I may share little of the experience. That is just normal communication. If you want to learn spiritual things, you must learn through the spirit. If you are truelly seeking to know the truth as to whether God lives, whether the Bible or Book of Mormon are true, and whether or not Christ has restored his Gospel to the earth in our day through prophets, I submit that you CAN know the truth of these things. Study it, ponder it, then pray to your Father in Heaven with a sincere heart, if these things are true. He will answer those who truely seek the truth. I testify that these things are indeed true.
This is an outstanding discussion. Brother Harper’s son served his mission with my husband and me. They are an outstanding family and doing so much good for so many.
That was excellent thank you for sharing
I've always appreciated the down-to-earth logic that Dr. Harper uses when he presents his thoughts and experiences.
Going to enjoy watching this multiple times.
Thanks, SJ!
Love these discussions, thank you for your examples of faith and learning!
From my experience with depression your experience and others experience always trump what the experts say. Its about learning to trust your inner voice which in my opinion usually contradicts the voice of the experts.
Love this type of content! Keep it up!
We will keep them comin.
Regarding Hoffman, I do remember a comment by Elder Oaks at the time along the lines of, "As Church leaders, we tend to believe, giving others the benefit of the doubt!
And, we later learned, Hoffman's story was full of lies and deceit!
11:46 th-cam.com/video/NFfZfNvCntY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QnSr3OErElAaVEfR&t=706
David Alexander always says that another name for Satan in the scriptures is "accuser of the brethren." He further points out that LOVE believes the best about people. If you have charity (which is the pure love of Christ), then it is rather hard for you to think ill of anyone. At least not to begin with. You are honest of heart and deed, and you receive others the same way. It is Satan's purview to be suspicious and accuse and instantly think the worst about people.
Oaks apologetics for the letter was hilarious, rationalizing away how Moroni was actually a giant salamander. Not only shows complete lack of discernment, but also a willingness to decieve in order to keep people believing.
He's totally misunderstood and misapplied the term Satan. It was a role God gave to certain angels, to go harass/accuse/test humans, like in the story of Job. People in old testament times did not have our same concept of a Satan character, much less apostles to be accused of things.
@mokoloki1657 they accused the Lord Jesus Christ of deception before him. Just as scripture prophesied.
The Lord truly prophesied that if they were of the world, the world would love them. But they are not of the world, so the world will hate them.
All of us are going from grace to grace until we don't need to be here anymore. I perish the thought of generations yet unborn trying to understand our time and use the star or national enquirer as a source for our current society. I have hated Richard Bushman for years for harming the character of my beloved Joseph and from recently made statements by him and realizing that words are not sufficient the Spirit will always be superior and should be the primary source.
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Neat little thought about Rough Stone Rolling… Bushman is an American historian NOT a church historian. He came to an event my husband was at and took questions after he spoke. He was asked about his sources by a church historian, and he admitted he used documents and sources that were antagonistic towards the church but didn’t know at the time.
I don’t know why he never rewrote or added that into his references.
But God knows all things. And though we think some things are harming the church, they end up being spring boards to gathering His children.
I love our dear Joseph too. ☀️🙏🏻
@Icanonlyimagn7891 that is something I have also come to know through different channels. Seems the one thing we so easily forget in our modern society is that the blood of our Savior is good for everyone and that forgiveness is to be freely given. I try not to be harsh with others. We are all finding our way by barrowed light.
@@tacticplanner7188 beautifully said! Thank you!🥰☀️
First vision accounts at 1:20:57. The most important part of the discussion surrounding the First Vision is did it happen. There are at least 10 versions known to scholars of early Mormon history. However something had to have happened in the sacred grove. If there was no First Vision, then there is no prophet called in Joseph Smith. There was also no start of the restoration. There would also be no reason to deny the Trinity. There would most likely not be a LDS church established in 1830, or the Book of Mormon published in 1829. The First Vision has to occur in order for the rest to follow. Critics get too caught up in the 10 versions, claiming that means it never happened.
It's really the 4 Smith versions that are the problem. They are self-evidently contradictory. That's the problem.
Secondarily they aggrandize over time, starting with a rather mundane visionary experience in 1832 (common to the time and place), to an unbeatable claim that GOD himself appeared and introduced Jesus to Joseph. I call it the Rigdon effect. Everything aggrandized after Rigdon came on the scene.
That’s why it’s so important to study it out, read all the accounts, read Jospeh’s words and talk to God. God is good and will not allow Satan to answer a heart felt prayer. That’s why God in James 1:5 told His children He will be there to answer ALL our questions while we’re here on earth “at school” if we sincerely ask.
Joseph was searching, pondering and wanted to do God’s will. His mother was telling him to join her church, friends and family members were telling him to join others.
I’ve been in Jospeh’s position where I needed to know From God what to do with certain challenges. Although my family and friends and doctors were all telling me to do different things, I knew God knew what was best, and He surely does answer prayers in His perfect way and cosmic timetable.
Christ told His apostles before he ascended back to heaven that deception would be the sign that would be happening upon the earth before He returned a second time.
How I love the gift of the Holy Spirit that bears witness to my soul of truth. That I can rely on my Creator and Father to teach me truth.
I cannot wait to meet and thank Joseph for being willing to be an instrument in the Lord’s hands to restore the everlasting gospel.
I’m blown away by the beauty and truths found within. Wow, just wow!
Best of blessings as you sort through all the lies and slander. ❤️☀️
@rodneyjamesmcguire As a young man like Joseph was he was persecuted right out of the block when he first mentioned it. I'm sure he was very reserved in what he released to the public. I'm sure he got braver as times went on and released more. Hence the different versions. But because you or I weren't there we'll never know until the day we can ask brother Joseph in person.
@@wheels636 ❤️👍🏻☀️I agree, it’s hard to recreate history with our present view and limited information.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Don Bradley (the historian mentioned in this video who left the church, then came back) makes a good point about the differing accounts.
When you are recounting an event you often taylor it to your audience. Based on what you think they can understand or recieve.
When I ponder on that.. I realize I often do the same thing. I gauge what I think the listener can understand as try to explain an unusual experience or little understood concept to them.
When you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
That doesn't mean my experience, or knowledge I learned didn't happen or that I'm making it up.
Great discussion!
This was so powerful for me! I’m dealing with a family member that has been affected by tough history in the church and is willing to listen to alternative voices instead of finding answers from his own investigation. This gives me so much hope and a way to approach my own questions although my feet are planted firmly. Thanks for this one! I will listen to this again I’m sure!!
I love Dr. Harper. I had the privilege of taking his class at BYU.
This was another fantastic interview! Thank you so much for sharing this with us. My personal favourite part was to hear the testimony born at the end of this. What a beautiful witness that when we are willing to humbly seek for truth, as well as the Lord, our testimony that starts by praying to have the desire to desire to repent will in time become firmer and firmer until it becomes a sure and perfect knowledge. Keep up the great work 🥰
Well done.
Right on Steve. You should bring your old mug to the next class reunion when we have another one, 2028.
This was good!!
Man the spirit stirs my soul. The gospel is so simple yet i find it so difficult. There is this constant tug of war between the flesh and the spirit. It can be so discouraging at times. When the spirit speaks to you reminding you that you need to repent the natural tendency, at least mine, is to put the thought out. Why do i do this. Sometimes the spirit dosent feel good but whom the Lord loveth, the Lord chasteneth. Repentance is hard, it goes against our natural tendencies. We must yeild to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man. Easier said than done but we must try and try we will and success will follow.
It’s funny. The minute I decided to NOT let the noise interfere with my lack of getting an answer, that’s when I got my answers. I definitely believe that the noise is sometimes the trial of our faith.
I also had a young experience with doubt. Possibly pre-teen but around that time. I read the same book David Alexander has mentioned from when he was also a young fan of Sherlock holmes. But from considering the shock I felt over such scandalous storytelling about the Mormons I gained from the experience the sense that there never was anyone so good or anything so true that it couldn't be lied about. That's often been a great strength and too many young and old still have a naivete which makes them vulnerable to scammery
I liked when you said I'm going to believe Joeseph Smith and believe he is telling the truth. That is what I have been doing with polygamy and I'm finding that I believe Joseph, Hyrum and Emma. And I'm having issues with 132 and Brigham.
I am on a similar journey. I am quite confident that if Joseph could’ve come back even five years into the Utah era, he would’ve immediately excommunicated every single member of the quorum of the 12. Joseph’s Church and our church are vastly different in worldview, doctrine, and mission.
@@thedailydump7407 I really liked Dr Harper's experience that he shared with his dad. I'm banking on my testimony. I'm hoping that this will all be settled. It might take until Christ comes. Hang in there!
Same!! Joseph said he never had more than one wife, never taught or practiced anything in secret and never lied for the lord. Since we have no DNA evidence to prove otherwise, My mind cannot be changed. Those twelve that rewrote his history did so they could have many concubines. We do have DNA evidence that they did and were wicked men. Joseph was honest, loyal, a righteous man. He'll tell his story again and many members will hang their head in shame for helping to destroy his name.
His experience is very similar to my experience. Exposed to a LOAD of critical material when I was 16, it shook me a bit. I slowed down, decided to do my own investigation. I centered my study on the Bible and Book of Mormon and came out of it with a strong testimony. Since that time, I've discovered real answers to virtually every dart that was thrown my way. The church is true and because of that, I expect the enemy knows it too, and he will not let us rest easy.
❤️☀️🙌🏻love your testimony!
Thank you, this is a really great way to look at it. The enemy does know, of course he tries to mislabel history and make it look bad.
Such wonderful wisdom. I appreciated Steven’s testimony at the end. I am thankful for his faith and his scholarship, and for his efforts to build and strengthen the kingdom of God. Another excellent episode!
Are some Chyrch employees silent; as their pensions are in jeopardy should they speak out?
Relentless Repentance!!!🙏🏻👏❤️
I loved this discussion. Powerful testimony of our Lord and Savior. Thank you for sharing both your knowledge and wisdom, and also your witness of Christ.
Dr Steven could you do a peer review podcast on Problems with 132 site?
That would be a complete waste of hus time. No honest person with a brain takes Michelle Stone seriously.
@@jaredshipp9207 Don't call names. Please be like Dr Harper and his dad. Don't brush it under the rug or say don't look at that. The question is, did Joseph start it or did Brigham. If you just take current events of Joseph's lifetime. Believe what he said, what Hyrum said and what Emma said. Know that Joseph didn't father any other children than with Emma. There are no letters to any other wives other than Emma's letters. There are affidavits of Joseph denying polygamy or multiple wives. I do not believe Joseph to be a liar. The first two printings of the Doctrine and Covenant teach one husband one wife doctrine. Hyrum's speech at the conference, a few months before the martyrdom, strongly teaches against plural wives. Which I might add the Church took down off the Joseph Smith Papers website. And this is not all. The first-time polygamy was preached publicly was 1852, eight years after Joseph's death in General Conference. 132 was put in the D and C in the 1870's. Read the section out loud. It's crazy. And the polygamist didn't even follow it! There is an increase of multiple wife marriages and children after the death of Joseph and Hyrum 1844. If it was so unsafe for it to be practiced, they all of a sudden got brave after their leaders were murdered. Even the judge in the Temple Lot Case didn't believe Joseph was a polygamist after hearing the "supposable wives" of Joseph, testimonies. I love Jacob's sermon in the Book of Mormon. I believe polygamy is an abomination, a grosser crime and that Heavenly Father wouldn’t want that for his daughters. I believe the Bible. Abram's wife asked him to take their slave to conceive a child for them. I believe Jacob's father-in-law tricked him to marry Leah. How can this be dishonest? Please go be on Michelle Stone's program and set us all straight. She asks for others to come and share all the time. I would love to be set straight. I have been wrestling with this for a long time and I would love to let it go. But it all comes up again when I hear that it is crazy, insane or a stretch to believe that way. No, it is not. I'm a sane individual who has a testimony of Jesus Christ, of the Book of Mormon, of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints, of Joseph Smith, of President Nelson. Please don't discount this without looking at original sources. Michelle shears her sources. Whitney Horning shares her sources. That is how I know that the Church took down the teaching of Hyrum's. Because Whitney encouraged me to look up the sources myself, so I did. Yes, I believe it was Brigham who started this abomination. Along with blood atonement, priesthood band, Adam God theory.
@jacbox3889 Like others who think this way, if you doubt Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage, it's because you WANT that to be the case. And that's because you can't emotionally handle the issue and are looking for a way to explain it away while still telling yourself you're a believer in the Restoration. But here's the problem. Not only is the evidence overwhelming that it began with Joseph - hence the reason everyone believes that outside a relative handful of apostates - but also, even if it began with Brigham, what would that change? Brigham was a prophet every much as Joseph. And therein lies the dark implications pushed by the lies from people like Michelle Stone. Whether she realizes it or not (and her ignorance gospel doctrine on any number of subjects knows no bounds) this inevitable conclusion is that the prophet mantle, the Priesthood keys, and legitimacy of the Church died with Joseph and the Restoration failed. Which would mean Joseph, and the Lord's work through Joseph, failed. Why is this so hard for you people to see? Answer: Again, because you are spiritually immature, intellectually dishonest, and can't handle the issue. So you engage in revisionist history.
@@jaredshipp9207 Calling names is not the answer. I don't believe the restoration lies on the shoulders of Brigham Young. Pres Kimball denounced Brigham's teaching of the Adam God theory in 1976. Gordon B Hinkley said that polygamy is NOT doctrinal. Pres Nelson denounced the priesthood band. Please go read Brigham's words. He said he came up with polygamy in Great Britain before Joseph supposable taught him. Please share the overwhelming evidence that it began with Joseph. I'm listening.
@jacbox3889 Now you're just lying and misrepresenting what the prophets have said. The Restoration lies on the shoulders of all the prophets and an unbroken line of succession. Those of you, who want to do away with Brigham because you want to do away with plural marriage and the priesthood restriction (though both started with Joseph), break that line of succession. So don't even pretend to care what President Nelson thinks. You throw away Brigham, you throw away everyone after him. And you throw away Joseph before him as well. And for the record, President Nelson never denounced the priesthood restriction. He has denounced racism. And the Church as a whole has disavowed previous theories for the ban. Not the ban itself or implying there wasn't a reason. Spiritual 3rd graders like yourself, who don't understand plural marriage or the priesthood restriction, are trying to find a way around them while acting like you're faithful to the Restoration when you're not. The reason I level insults at you is because I won't give you the respect someone who is actually being intellectually honest. You're trying to ram your modern-day day, Western political and social views into the Gospel and its doomed to fail. My guess is, you have already left the Church or will eventually.
Great interview.
Thank you for this conversation, it was very important for many people to hear
Scholars with amazing faith. Inspiring interview!
Don’t forget to like the video, friends 😊
There is much more to learn all that comes from god is good.
I heard Barbara Brown left the Church. She worked with Turley on the MMM.
Who is Barbara brown?
@@MrsFlax-iu3ro She worked with Turley on the Mountain Medows Massacre books. She edited the first and coauthored the other. I think Turley was commissioned by the Church for those books. Turley now has been commissioned by the Church to write a new book on Joseph Smith.
“At length, as I lay apparently upon the brink of eternal woe, seeing nothing but death before me, suddenly there came a sweet flow of the love of God to my soul, which gradually increased. At the same time, there appeared a small gleam of light in the room, above the brightness of the sun, then at his meridian, which grew brighter and brighter: As this light and love increased, my sins began to separate, and the Mountain [of sin] removed towards the east. At length, being in an ecstasy of joy, I turned to the other side of the bed, (whether in the body or out I cannot tell, God knoweth) there I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, I could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man-His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love!! I was filled with the sacred flame, and the glory of God; I thought one spark more in my soul would have destroyed this mortal frame!! I was happy!!! happy!!! happy!!! I wanted ten thousand tongues to sing their sweet, their glorious praise!! It was a heaven here below for the space of half an hour!! But how infinitely short must I come of describing their glory, for want of language to paint my feelings! For the joys of Heaven so far surpass all bounds of description, or human conception, that christians here below come infinitely short of forming a competent idea of the joys that await the righteous: ‘Eye hath not seen, Ear hath not heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive of those good things, the Father hath prepared for them that love him.'”
Vision of Norris Stearns, published in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith states his vision took place and 17 years before any written record of Joseph’s first vision.
Maybe God really was making multiple appearances in the woods of New England in the early 1800s.
Read read read.
“Truth does not fear questions.”
@coryhorton5837 Thanks so much for sharing that. That is SO cool! I totally agree that we should not fear truth and reality, even if it does not initially match up with our previous perceptions.
It makes sense to me, that God would be preparing multple people to receive His truth. At the time all of society believed the trinitarian doctrine that God, Jesus and Holy Spirit were one being, existing everywhere at once. This man's vision clearly demonstrated a different reality, and that God does have the form of a man.
That’s great the more the better!
This is one of the best interviews in the LDS podcast world. I love it.
I really love this episode and learned a lot. Thank you for sharing your insights.
3:55 the "they" is the church correlation committee.
Wonderful discussion! Thank you so much!
You heard it here. Steven harper says the use and belief of divining rods was not practiced by Joeseph smith.
Just read a New Book by Lars Neilson. "How the Book Of Mormon Came To Pass" The second grestest show on earth. I loved the Book Of Mormom. It was sad for me letting go of it.
If you just look at the trend of anachronisms that get resolved over time, you would realize you're dismissal of the book is premature.
That is so sad.
Even if the Book of Mormon was false(which I know is not, it is a sacred record for our day from God), but even if it was false… it changes me to desire the things of God. It changes my intentions to want to be more like my Lord, Jesus Christ. It brings me such peace in Christ, it anchors me to my Lord. I have so much more hope in Christ when I’m reading daily from it.
I’m more patient, kind, forgiving. I see others a little more through the eyes of Heaven and have a desire to act on the promptings to help my fellow travelers on the earth.
I also when reading the Book of Mormon get glimpses into the heart of my God. What stirs His soul? What causes His bowels to expand and overflow with love?
The Book of Mormon is one of my most precious gifts! I cannot imagine life without it and long for others to feel and know and experience what I have from feasting on the word’s of Christ.
As I’ve had challenges and difficult questions, as I spend time reading (which I do daily) I KNOW my questions are heard, and eventually Words in the scriptures will answer my questions. The Holy Spirit changes them to just what I need to hear. They truly are the “Living Word’s”.
I’m so sorry you let the words of man deceive you from the most beautiful fruit on earth.
Sometimes we have to go without to learn what are gifts in life we truly had.
Best of blessings as you sort through all the lies, falsehoods and deception out there.
Christ did say, deception would be happening and would be the sign before He comes a second time.
☀️❤️🙏🏻
Truly, wishing you well.
Beware of Christ’s statement to His apostles before he returned to our Father,
The sign before the Second Coming of Christ is deception.
I know you’d say that about the church… just make sure you’re getting your answers from God. (James1:5)
Either your book about the greatest show on earth is true or it’s not.
Just like either The Book of Mormon is true or it’s not.
And you can take both to the Lord. ☀️❤️
@@Icanonlyimagn7891 The author fully had admitted that his book is not perfect and is subject to human error. I'am doing what the Lord told Joseph Smith. Study it out in your own mind. That's is exactly 💯 what I'am doing at the present time.
@@jessenashvillejames150
That’s comforting!
If you loved the Book of Mormon and read it often… listen to how you feel when you read this new book from man.
Do you feel light, do you feel goodness, joy, strength, a desire to be more like the Savior? Do you find happiness and expansion of your soul? Those are fruits of the Spirit.
Fruits of the deceiver are confusion, chaos, anger, darkness, resentment etc.
When my husband (before we met) was a rabid anti Mormon. He knew all the lies and falsehoods better than most, and taught them believing them as truth. While attending USMA, he met a couple of cadets that were members of the church and was impressed by them and respected them.
He decided to read the Book of Mormon to prove it wrong and help these “lost cultist”.
He had a “Saul” experience and ended up finding the missionaries and being baptized a few weeks later.
He said that reading the Book of Mormon filled his soul with light, peace and a closeness to Christ he couldn’t find anywhere else on the planet, next to the Bible.
One of the MANY things I love about the Book of Mormon is if we are reading its words daily, and learning to hear Christ in them, we can’t be deceived.
My counsel would be to read this new book as you also read the Book of Mormon. Give both equal time and listen to what the Spirit tells you.
I will promise that if you give the Book of Mormon the same amount of time or more, than you give other works of man that try to discredit the book, you will be filled with light, knowledge power and awareness of God and His profound love for YOU!
…but if you give this new book undivided time. And fill your mind and heart only with its words, you will loose what ever light you have. It will be dimmed and most likely go out.
I’m not saying that’s bad. Sometimes we have to step outside the gospel of Jesus Christ to learn valuable lessons.
If you do end up leaving, I pray you will never forget your Father in heaven who created you and adores you as if you were His only child. He is anxious to speak to you and fill your soul with His love. He is glorious!
☀️❤️I’ll send prayers heavenward in your journey.
I think it was interesting that Bushman in Rough Stone Rolling saying it is possible that the Smith family did not join the Presbyterian church until a revival in 1823-24 not 1820. "All the circumstantial evidence not withstanding for an 1820 membership, the date of Lucy Smith's engagement to Presbyterianism remains a matter of debate. It is possible to argue plausibly that she did not join until later Palmyra revivals in 1824" fn 30 p. 570. William Smith said Joseph Smith Snr did not join because the pastor said his son Alvin had gone to hell. Alvin died in 1823. Would be wonderful if the records of the Presbyterian church in Palmyra was available, have been missing since 1930. Oliver Cowdery in the Messenger and Advocate writes about the revival in 1823-24 and the visit of Moroni. Even mentions certain pastors who spoke which can be verified from other sources.
How does any of this information relate to the gospel of Jesus Christ? Those historical events don’t mean anything in my book unless one can tell me how it matters to the gospel.
@@binmyrtmind It shows me Smith made up the story.
So, I read the multiple 1st vision accounts several times and I don't see what the problem is.
I'm Mormon, but believe Oriental Orthodoxy (Armenian). If anything the 1st vision reaffirms the Holy Trinity.
Look at the other stuff Joseph did. He was definitely a trickster and a theological genius.
Huh?
@dmoney4075 huh? We speak English here. Or any other language, I have a translator. But it doesn’t read huh dialect.
I heard Bishop Jones is a really good hockey player...
Fantastic!
7:07 but wait a minute! Was the concept and practices described in the forged letter true????
It was a forgery.
@@tdm2298 correct. The letter was fake but what about the concept and practices being told in the letter??? That's the info that was concerning to him as a young man. He never expanded on that....
@@jamesbayless5842 Maybe someone else would be better at answering your question. That forgery came out 50 years or so, as I recall. I didn't give it much heed then, but it did cause concern for some members and of course those who love to find things to attack the church, loved it. I just remember it being quite strange. I did not have the answers then, but felt a darkness when I read it or when others discussed it. I relyed on my testimony of Jesus Christ and the restored gospel to get me through that time, just as I do now. As they discuss in the video above I have learned spiritual truths through the spirit. I don't remember all the details of that ridiculous account and don't see a need to waste my time on it now. I didn't give it heed then, why give it my time now? May you find the answers you are seeking.
Are you following the info that is coming out about Joseph not being a polygamist? Please go over that. To me it is making sense and ringing true.
I don't know what specific information you are referring to, but Brian Hales published a three volume work documenting Joseph's practice of polygamy. Don Bradley collected over 1500 sources for the project. Any suggestions that Joseph did not institute the practice are false.
This is old news. If you follow Dr. Harper's strategy of thinking slowly, you will figure it out.
I have researched deeply dozens of examples of Joseph Smith’s alleged polygamy. Every single, one fizzles out. All of the Smiths fought polygamy with every ounce of their strength, intellect, and spiritual power. Joseph was absolutely not a polygamist. Brian Hales is a man who loves the church. He does not love truth.
The only fools who believe the nonsense about Joseph not practicing plural marriage are those who have left the Church or those on their way out. It's a tired lie even the RLDS gave up.
@pythonista466 amazing how quickly someone turned advice from this interview into condescending, judgemental remarks. Bravo!
The Information you say is “coming out”is from those who think they know better than our prophets and apostles what is true about church history. In effect, they are thus saying that we are being lied to by President Nelson and our other church leaders. If you believe that you are lost and on your way to apostasy. Wake up to your precarious situation. It’s foolishness. Listen to David Alexander’s clear rebuttals of this twisted way of thinking. Repentance or apostasy are your two choices.
Steven C Harper is a top-knotch gaslighter. So he's a great fit for this channel.
Great interview although I would disagree with this idea of the restoration God being more personal than the unrestored God. (1:27:00) Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the father. I just feel like through Christ incarnate we can easily deduce that God cares for the one, knows us personally and in a deeply merciful and personal way. But I totally see what your guest is getting at. Just my two cents.
I liked the empathy for depression. People in faith crisis want desperately for the Church to be true. But often despite enormous effort and study and fasting and prayer, it just doesn't add up. And no amount of begging God for help and clarity fixes it. So I disliked the part about making people think *they* must be the problem. They must have some noise, some blocks. That's a classic manipulation called blame reversal, and it's used by every single unhealthy/controlling group out there. Watch Escaping Twin Flames-when faced with peoples' questions and doubts the cult leader puts the blame on the members' personal shortcomings, even calls them "blocks" just like in this interview. Please don't offer this as a solution. All it does is increase doubt and insecurity, and give faithful members more fuel for judging.
Cult models are exmembers way of giving themselves pseudoscientific license to judge their TBM brothers and sisters. Don't talk about "fuel for judging" while appealing to incendiary terms like "cult". You only give exmembers more fuel for judging when you do that.
Anyone else having play issues?
Is it working for you now?
Acrs 11:27,28
October General Conference in 2019 had no announcement of COVID-19 in 2020.
WHY NOT?
According to Sheri Dew Prophets see around corners! So they say it just didn't say anything about it I guess.
Actually, there WAS preparation for having a home-based church through the Come Follow Me program. This helped the members be more prepared to study the gospel individually and with their families when attending church was not possible. We were given these preparations before the pandemic. You can always find fault that EVERYTHING has not been revealed by a living prophet. But that is not how God works. If everything was revealed, then that would take away our agency to choose faith or unbelief. I would recommend that when troubling things occur, or when doubts arise, take it to your Heavenly Father. If a leader says something that you question, ask God. He knows all truth, and loves his Children. Those who seek truth sincerely, CAN find it.
@@tdm2298 We are far from finding fault that "EVERYTHING has not been revealed by a living prophet" we are just wanting something that couldn't have been revealed by just anyone. To really see if "Prophets really do See Around Corners" Whats the the point of having a living prophet if we are only getting "Paying Tithing is the best way to get out of poverty", and children of LGBT parents can't get baptized. (The was reaffirmed was doctrine from revelation). Given in 2015 reversed in 2019.
@@dirtbikeutah9615 Yes, I agree that we would all love to see ahead of time the bad things that are going to happen. In my own personal life, I have received curve balls being thrown my way. A case in point, three months after I was married, a doctor told me and my husband that he had terminal cancer and would live three to six months. He lived for six more months. While he was in recovery from surgery, I miscarried our child. It took me some time to navigate through these events. I questioned if God really loved me, and if Jesus Christ really died on the cross to take away our sorrows and atone for our sins. I will tell you that though these times were dark, and I could not see how life could ever be good again, I got through by holding onto hope. My faith was shaken, but I had hope in Christ. I may have been questioning, my faith was even waivering, but I held onto hope in Jesus Christ and in Heavenly Father. Would it have helped me to know of these sad events ahead of time? Perhaps not. It was not God's perfect wisdom to let me in on these things. Because maybe God wanted me to be stretched and to grow my faith in Him. If I had known ahead of time, would I have just given up in the beginning or avoided marrying? Would I have just chosen to refuse to move forward with marriage and planning a family? There is a vail that has been placed over our eyes. This is part of God's plan. We are here to be tested by the curve balls and unfairness in our lives. When the saints of God in the past and present, as well as the rest of our brothers and sisters.....all who are living or lived and struggled or who are struggling in this earthly realm with the trials in this life: poverty, war, famine, natural disasters, pandemics, persecutions, falsehoods of every kind, or any other calamity, when we turn to God, He will help us get through, and someday we will receive a full understanding of all things. I believe that we have been warned of the current calamities. We can read of those prophecies in the Bible, and in the Book of Mormon. The prophets anciently and in our time have been warning us and trying to help us know how to prepare for the coming of the Lord. We know that there are perilous times. Those who have ears to hear will hear the voice of warning. Please don't blame our prophet for not telling us everything you want to know. It may be God's will for us and for you that some things are not revealed in 3-D. But he gives us enough. He reveals to us what we need to know at this time. Our prophet cannot reveal what the Lord forbids him to reveal. But the Lord does reveal what He wants us to know. Perhaps prayefully read those past conference talks. Pray and ask our Heavenly Father what knowledge he wants to give you at this time. I believe you will see that God has been trying to prepare us. May God bless you and your loved ones.
Who's fault has is it been that faithful lifelong members are not informed about the real history of the church?
Why is God so incompetent that he can't properly communicate the truth to his living Prophets?
Who's at fault if a prophet got the wrong message that causes someone to doubt and or leave?
It wasn’t the prophets or the Church. It was lazy learners and lax disciples, to use President Nelson's phrase, who failed to adequately study gospel doctrine and church history and develop a real testimony.
@@jaredshipp9207 where in the correlated curriculum (before 9 years ago) was a rock in a hat, Joseph Smith's polygamy and polyandry, Joseph Smiths treasure digging, multiple versions of the first vision... ect ect? Sources would be nice, because I personally know people who were excommunicated for talking about the above topic in the 80's and 90's.
@@franklinanderson9687 If everything were crystal clear, especially clarity that’s simply handed to you by someone else, it would defeat the Plan of Salvation. Alma 12:9 - 11. God himself will answer you, in his time. It will take humility, ongoing repentance, desire, effort, faith centered in Jesus Christ.
@@franklinanderson9687That info has been around for years. Your post tells me you have surface knowledge and minimal understanding of these subjects. Those who do the spiritual work will know the Church is true and won't apostitize.
@@franklinanderson9687wow, so off based. Let’s just take one of your examples. First Vision accounts have been taught in the church for a hundred years! It is mentioned by BH Roberts in the church official history in 1930. 1965 in both the Improvement Era and the Ensign. April 1970 Improvement Era has a synoptic chart comparing all of the accounts. You are creating a classic straw man to say that the church has intentionally hid things from its members. Simply untrue. Also, I’m calling you out… I want specific examples of people who were “excommunicated for talking about the above topic”
I’ve read and studied the Book of Mormon for over 50 years. On my mission God revealed to me the truthfulness of the book. But that was a long time ago so now I read and rely on my brain. The Book of Mormon is undeniably, absolutely true. Because of that I know Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, His Church is restored and President Nelson is His Prophet today.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2
Polygamy, seer stones, race and priesthood, mistakes, nothing else matters
I love your testimony. Mine came in an opposite way. Many unmistakabke witnesses have happened to me at random times that this is Jesus Christ's restored church in the last days. Because of those witnesses... I believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, and all the rest of it. Any anomalies that pop up about church history, contradictions, questionable stories etc, mean nothing to me.
God uses flawed people to bring about his purposes. I will never judge the early saints because of their mistakes or flawed humanity. I have nothing but compassion and gratitude for them. ❤
@@tamaraelsberry6630Beautifully said Tamara.
This is an example of how apologetics works. You have to rationalize and defend inconvenient truths about changing doctrine, controversial church history, or human errors committed by past church leaders.
That’s what an anti would say. Predictable. This is how life is. It’s not always black and white or simple. Not one person is all good or all bad but according to your understanding that is apologetics too. Did Joseph do some amazing things? Yes. Did he have some fallibility? Yes. Have you done some amazing things? Probably. Are you fallible? Yes.
How you judge is how you will be judged. If you judge others defenses as rationalization your defenses will be judged that way whether or not they are sincere or insincere.
Do you hold yourself to the same standard? People say JS plagiarized the book of mormon. And yet there's not one eye witness account of him researching, writing, collecting texts, maps, etc. So if you were unbiased in your approach, you would have to come to the conclusion that he didn't plagiarize it. Because it's all conjecture or opinion stated as fact. The reality is there's zero evidence he plagiarized it. Zero.
Thank goodness that Jesus Christ's eternal sacrifice can solve any and all problems. Whether it be past church leaders or sins of members. In the end all will be made fair and all truth shall be revealed through the almighty God.
I'm guessing you understand little of the "changing doctrine, controversial church history, or human errors committed by church leaders" you mention. Simply regurgitating what you've heard, or think you know, without much knowledge of gospel doctrine or church history.
I love church history . The more o learn of church history makes my testimony even stronger . Church history true church history is wonderful
Listening to Brother Harper’s interview I keep having a scripture go through my mind of a prophecy that I think he and many others are unintentionally fulfilling.
Know this also, that in the last days perilous times shall come, for men shall be… ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 3:1-7
Wonderful episode, erudite guest.
The Book of Mormon was not translated, it was revealed. Not sure why we still use the word “translation”.
Because that's what Joseph Smith called, and portrayed it.
I assume you're referring to how Royal Skousen described it?
I actually, near a 1/2 century ago, sat in the byu church history class taught by Milton V Backman who wrote the book 📕 First Vision !
Where we took a semester to explore those 4 accounts which Joseph Smith shared re: that greatest of all theophanies !
I served my mission in the most difficult mission, at that time , back in the late 70’s ☘️ where we were required to memorize all our discussions which began with/m the C divisions as to J S Hist 1 acct of his experience where he looked around then knelt to prayer .. in the 1st discussion.
I shared that 1,000’s of times from memory the pages of my flip chart would verify.
That vision was so in line with the other 3 times where the Father introduced His Son amidst the recorded canonized records!
A guy reads from a magic rock in his farm hat in order to interpret golden plates that are conveniently unavailable for scrutiny and he expects me to orchestrate my life around his words, give 10 percent of my income to his church, and to suspend every critical faculty with which I address every other domain of my life. Yea; that's pretty much all I need to know. The rest is just differing flavors of high-octane bullshit.
Much upliftment. Christ centred. Spot on ! Thank you
You know there is over 100 churches that believe in the book of mormon? There are plenty of restored gospel churches to believe in
But there is only one with Saints of the Church of the Lamb and covenant people of the Lord scattered upon all the face of the earth. Joseph Smith prophesied of this several times. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not the true Church, the Joseph wasn’t a true prophet. The others don’t fulfill his prophecies. Joseph was a prophet!
@@jeremycollins1068 depends on which prophecies you are looking at.
There is only one that holds the necessary priesthood keys - the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All the rest are apostates. Basically Protestants with the Book of Mormon and nothing else.
@@jaredshipp9207 and who decides that they are apostate?
@@aharonwsmithJared does, been reading his comments all over the place. Dude has a lot of self righteousness. Lmao.
When you seek answers from the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible, God can't help you because you have turned your back on Him. Therefore this leaves the door open for Satan (II Corinthians 11:14-15)to step into your life with a false christ or prophet showing you signs and wonders to lead you away from the real Jesus of the Bible who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God. God Himself warns us about this in: MATTHEW 24:23-24
"Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect..."
Mormons teach and believe that their jesus is the brother of Satan, which contradicts what God says in His Bible that Jesus is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God.
So Mormons, which Jesus do you believe in?
A. Your jesus of the Book of Mormon, who is the brother of Satan.
OR
B. The Jesus of the Bible, who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God.
Wow, you haven’t read the Book of Mormon have you? It testifies of the truths in the Bible, it testifies of Jesus Christ. Better try this argument again and besides that, why are you afraid of gaining more knowledge and truth and understanding of Christ? Your comments are merely repeated from the internet’s same old nonsense.
@@binmyrtmind
Well, the Biblical and academic evidence says I'm right.
If I had a dollar for every disaffected former member who mistakenly thinks its THEY who REALLY knows the history of the Church, while those of us who remain don't, I'd have my own private jet on 24-hour standby.
Are jets really that inexpensive? If *everyone* apostatized , you would only have 18 million dollars.
It’s not the history of the church that people leave over. It’s chariots , ore, silk, the late war, the Book of Mormon is clearly made up. You need to know no church history or polygamy.
I haven't met any member in person who is a believer and knows as much as I do regarding church history. The ones willing to talk about it find it "icky" and eventually don't want to discuss it very long.
Wow. A lot of thought comes to mind, listening to this.
Some even surprised me.
Infuriating. Disgusting. Sad. Ignorant. Deception. Condescending. Arrogant.
It's easy to see pride in others but rarely do we ever see in ourselves right friend?
@@jaromjones7087 Ah, the old ad hominem...it never fails. It's as if every single post on every single channel must end up with an LDS person engaging in it.
My comment was an expression of thoughts that came to mind watching the discussion. Just a transparent expression of what was going through my mind.
The problem with Dr. Harpers approach is that he isn't addressing the root of the issue, he's reverse engineering it.
What he "knows" to be true, demonstrably is not true. That's the problem.
And that doesn't even address the absurdity of the apologetic mental gymnastics he performs regarding the supposed first vision.
No!
@rodneyjamesmcguire I love you brother. I don't know if you will believe me, but I really do understand how you can come away from this with those thoughts and emotions. But I also know that when one chooses to look at the same information with a different frame of reference, the thoughts and emotions can be at the other end of the spectrum. I'm so grateful to all of my brothers and sisters for being willing to take part in this great and scary experience so that we will be able to learn from each other's experiences, all of which are completely real and valid as we experience them. Thank you brother.
@@andersonfamily2759beautiful❤️☀️
Millions of people around the world has read, ponder and pray to the Almighty God if the Book of Mormon is true and received answer that it is indeed came from God. If the book is true then Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. The most important thing to learn from the book is that Jesus is the Christ. He lives and the Savior of the world. He is the only begotten of the Father. Billions of people don't believe in the Bible because they belong in different religions but here is the Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ proves the Bible to be true. The presence of the Holy Ghost when you read the book helps you overcome the world and get closer to God.
Way more have rejected it. But that's an appeal to numbers, which is a logical fallacy.
.......but way more that have entered have left. The millions are closer to 2 to 3 million active members.
@@bryancsimmons It would be great to get a clear picture, but it's not really a numbers game, per se. If it were, the Catholics won long ago.
An appeal to numbers just doesn't work, even if you're on the team with the most numbers, that in an of itself says nothing about the claims being true.
@@bryancsimmonsThere are some that have stepped away, and that’s ok. One of the fundamental principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ is agency. Everyone has their own journey.
And that’s what I love about The Plan of Happiness, we are here on earth to gain wisdom, knowledge and experience. Sometimes people will learn more outside of the church, though from my experience, learn what is an empty, dead end road.
There is an inspiring podcast on TH-cam called the Comeback Podcast. Its stories of members who left for whatever reason, usually became anti…and then came back.
One thing I know is that the light, joy and peace that come from living the gospel cannot be bought or found anywhere else in the earth. It truly has fruit that is more precious and desirable than ANYTHING on earth. Christ is EVERYTHING!
☀️❤️
Best of blessings on your journey through life.
@@bryancsimmonsI think just for factual basis, the church was officially organized with only 6 members in attendance, back in 1830. It had grown to millions of members worldwide. So actually the church has flourished in spite of all the persecution and slander.
Also, in Revelations, Daniel and Matthew the prophesies speak of the Church of Christ being small (compared to the earths population) because of the wickedness in the latter-days… and that there would be another apostasy because of deception. Christ told His apostles before He returned to His Father, that deception happening among the children of men, would be the sign before He returns a second time to the earth.
Heaven only knows with the internet, the lies, falsehoods and slander can be put up as if it’s truth and spread like a raging fire.
That surely is happening today.
It’s so freeing and exciting to know our Lord Jesus Christ is in charge. He created the earth and everything on it. He allows man to choose, Is a King of love, and will come again soon! ❤️☀️