I realised I missed some context The reason I keep talking about "Making plays are essential at every point in MOBAs, such as smoke of deceipt and wards in Dota" is due to the effect of being trapped in base when facing rejuvinator. No way to move around creeps without being seen essentially makes plays incredibly difficult. Another context is because I am restarted Hope this helps!
I quite like the fact that it can be stolen by a single punch. It just means you need to be aware of the enemy teams cc, and you’ll need to make sure that any players who can steal rejuv effectively (Abrams, infernus, wraith, etc) are able to be countered or killed beforehand. The counter play to rejuv steals is guarding mid well enough that they can’t steal it otherwise that risk will always exist. With all that being said I do think there is some merit into splitting the rejuv into 2 separate buffs one for killing mid boss and the other for hitting the crystal
Once I was pushing to steal rejuv, I was playing wraith with ult maxed so it was area lifting and an infernus was also around the corner with their ult about to blow up, the enemy shiv had unstoppable relatively early and reclaimed the rejuv, the infernus and I proceeded to scram
I see your point and semi agree with it but I feel like it is less about mid boss/rejuv and more about how deadlock late game is lacking in options for losing teams. You either go for rejuv and risk it for the biscuit or you play for picks and hope you can slowly come back because a team fight will probably fuck you up.
@@dogodogoob3114 Yeah 100%, I do think it is simply due to beta stage however I do feel it is essential to give feedback nonetheless. I do imagine they will implement more things to do. As ive said in another comment The jungle spawn times being so low also really encourages fights, however without ways to grant vision it feels kinda awkward for me. Maybe its a skill issue, but it do be a thing to ponder on. Thank you dogo my friend I appreciate the input
@@dogodogoob3114 Good point. I think this comes down mostly to the lack of smokes and wards, as Walloom explained. It's also due to the reduced value of structural objectives (e.g. sneaking a rax is more impactful than sneaking a shrine.) However, the design of rejuv directly contributes to both of these problems! The insane auto-push of rejuv creeps locks the losing team in their base, and deals huge structural damage if left unchecked. Like Walloom says, this makes it almost impossible to get out on the map and find alternate win conditions beyond "win the teamfight".
@@Walloom No, yeah, absolutely. One should remember that it is a development build. But one should also voice the concerns, lest these possible issues go unchecked and make it _out_ of the dev build.
I get what you're saying, but I'm enjoying the arms race of outplays when it comes to punching the crystal. Maybe at some point this will lose its novelty, but right now the crystal having all of the buffs means you either have to wipe the enemy team to take it, or take a massive risk by doing it with enemies up. I think this generally makes the game more exciting, and makes going for that extremely overpowered buff an super risky decision that has to be approached carefully.
@@launchpadmcquack98 I like your point of view, it is refreshing to hear an opinion different to mine. While I don't fully agree I am glad that the current state is being enjoyed. I'm very interested to see the change of the meatball man MidBoss in the future Thank you fren
@@WalloomI also really like how hero specific it becomes, tho this’ll likely get stale eventually with the current hero pool and no draft, but we know that’ll change. Being able to get a couple key picks on the only enemies with good steals before rushing a midboss is a fun thing to strategize around
Great video! Just one additiional idea: In case of implementing it your way, the team that gets the kill + the rejuv are more than likely going to be the same since it's either going to be a team fully dominating it while the other team doesn't have the resources to challenge them or the other team is gonna run in last second to get a swift kill after a big mass stun + get the rejuv. I feel like just the fact that you wasted resources to do over 50% of the damage to the mid boss should be worth more than the last shot. A split second 50/50 buff scenario already exists via the rejuv punch, no need to up that even further with a last kill shot.
I also think it's a bit cheesy that some team comps and characters are better at securing mid crystal than others. Like if you yamato ult, parry and punch even 1v6 there's basically no way to stop it if someone doesn't have unstoppable. Even then it's just a coin flip of who perfect times the punch better.
Problem I have a lot with idea's from the community is its almost always under the lense of other moba games. While Deadlock is taking inspiration from moba in general, specifically Dota - I hope the game continues to have its own identity then just becoming another moba gimmick. For the specific issue that mid boss is too strong - this is probably true and will be more apparent as teams and players get better. However I dont think its from a lack of wards and otherwise - those solutions preform differently because of the verticality of the game and the removal of top down gameplay. LoS is a factor in balance more then a fog of war. if mid boss exists it should be a win condition and while changes might need to be made, that should remain true. There should be comeback mechanics, and the game should have deeper swings from mistakes the longer the game goes on. In my mind good gameplay is you must have viable diversity you can overcome, you must have many solutions to presented threat, and the game must provide some amount of randomness to keep it engaging while still feeling solvable. Most competitive gamers want fair - but it usually ends up in restrictive gameplay (limited right ways to play the game) and casual players typically want easy solutions to hard problems. No matter what the game should be simple at its root, but the many parts of the game adds complexity the deeper into theory and strategy you choose to go - at the root you should just be able to play like a moba if you want to, but it should never be as simple as you must play this game like a moba if we want deadlock to be its evolution to moba rather then the gimmick I worry and expressed of earlier.
I love you're wording on this it's really well said, while I do pull from Dota 2 alot, the 3rd person aspect is definitely a huge change and therefore huge mechanic overhauls, such as shared vision and map watching. It is going to be really interesting moving forward to see what the Devs think the problems are. I trust them 100% as they have produced such a fantastic game known as the Dota of the two. Yeah the wards and smoke are something I really am just comfortable with, I do think there should be some vision tool added to the game to allow teams to gather information rather than running into other players, I trust this will eventually be added. Although I do have an obvious bias to Dota 2, I must become comfortable with the uncomfortable and embrace the fact that this game is completely different at the same time. I think the main reason I compare aswell, is because of how well it works in Dota. Thank you for your input friend.
@@tweezerman123 a gamer can wish, I feel it is all up to who has a stun effect, since we have no drafting it is hard to build around MidBoss, if drafting was in it would be a lot easier to fill in the gaps. Sometimes I think easy then I become an unhappy chappy if it gets yoinked from me :( Thank you for your words gamer
@@tweezerman123 Not really! All it takes is one moderately tanky, moderately mobile hero on the losing side to buy unstoppable, and you've got a coin-flip for the rejuv even in a 1v6. It's not realistic to burst through 2.5k HP in under 2-3 seconds without CC, and there's no way to stop them having a punch at the crystal. Do you really think you can check every single hiding spot near mid, while also killing the mid-boss in time before the enemy team respawns, while also being ready to co-ordinate to stop killing midboss or focus fire onto a surprise pocket at any moment? I don't think so, and as the skill level of the winning team increases, so does the skill level of the potential crystal thief. I believe the randomnesss factor is currently overtuned.
I think that the buff it gives is super strong. But changing it might not be the best way arround it. Maybe you can split the benefits like getting the stats OR the lane power ups/Death timer on killing the boss itself, and then the other one with the last hit of the crystal. Personally i think that giving the creep power up on kill, and the stats on the crystal, would make it so as a loosing team, you want to go only for the crystal, as a single punch can give you the stats needed to push the mega creeps with ease and open for plays. Also, the mid boss kill should be harder to get, right now is only a big ass healthpool between you and the buffs, it should be more of a challenge. that way, you get 2 oportunities to initiate a teamfight, 1 in the killing of the boss itself, and the other one in the crystal, while right now we only have a single fight where theres nothing going on other than waiting for it to land, burning cooldowns or playing parry/melee mind fights. The loosing team doesnt get anything from fighthing on it. We need a harder midboss, the pit should be a place where you are SCARED to go in, not because a %health laser beam, but something skill based like dodging projectiles, knockups, etc, giving an advantage to the team Outside the pit, that doesnt take dmg at all and can play the poke battle to force a teamfight on the crystal or just play the fight with a 7th member on the team.
I love the idea and the video is really entertaining! As other people have been saying, urn is also a problem. Likely more than midboss. This is because, urn allows an easy way for one team to start a teamfight and if one doesn't, then that team earns heaps of souls. And generally if a team is winning, one of the best plays would be to just take urn and start another teamfight in which they will likely win in. This is sort of countered by the 10% urn catch up but even then, a teamfight can easily break out if the nearby walker is destroyed. This is then accentuated by rejuvenator advocating for a teamfight even further. Also, doing urn is boring unless you have like an ivy to fly you around.
Thank you my friend, I agree with your points 100%, urn feels so strange to do aswell, it is clear they want to make this MOBA more about fighting rather than farming which is understandable, but its a fine line until it gets to team deathmatch mode like before this last patch. Farming gets a bad rap however I think that jungle creeps should absolutely be a way to come back into the game, However right now it seems like fighting really is the only way. Also yeah if i see like 6 jungle camps next to urn I find it really hard to justify running all that way to potentially feed it to enemy when I can just stay safe and hit creeps on my side. Speaking of which I do think that jungle camps spawn incredibly slowly. It would be fine if roles were more defined and carries took the jungle but as of now everyone wants to farm, and in high mmr games the jungle is quite often completely empty. Anyway thank you cookie cat you are a true gamer
I'm over here desperately hoping that this game does interesting things that make it less like other MOBAs. This video makes me realize im in the minority. I gave it a try because i like third person shooters but now I'm thinking that the community prefers the parts I hate and I i should drop the game. It's gonna be basically Valve's Smite.
@@NaturesFlame Maybe? I totally get why you want the game to branch out and find its own identity. On the other hand, there's huge value in learning from the 15 years of hard-won experience that MOBA devs have in balancing a "MOBA-type" game. Remember, Valve explicitly set out to make a MOBA with Deadlock, so even if they do create something fresh and innovative, they still have to respect the core dynamics of that game type. You can't forge a new genre by just smashing what existed before - the process of innovating needs to be done with care.
@ImperialGoldfish oh, I get it, I was just optimistic. I figured they wouldn't want to cannibalize their DotA base. I figured they'd be more keen to aim for a niche that wasn't filled, rather than double dip and lose DotA money. Valve has a ton of experience making MOBAs, but they have even more making shooters.
@NaturesFlame If I had to guess, I'd say Valve is looking to extend their reach in the MOBA space by offering a novel alternative. They know dota isn't going to attract many new players at this point in its life cycle, so they'll want to get another service up and running before dota starts to crash out. Again, just a guess!
I like the premise here but the solution definitely feels like "make deadlock into 3rd person shooter dota", which is probably a bad thing for the health of both games. If deadlock is just dota mechanics with shooting one will canabalize the other, or split players. It needs to be different enough it attracts other kinds of gamers. I think as well for 4 lanes they probably aught to be less important. In any 3 lane moba you only need 1 person to play an adjacent lane and your team controls 2/3 of the main resources, but this is harder to do with the way lanes are separated. Split pushing works, but not as well rewarded as a 3 lane game Where I'm fully on board is that games seem to snowball from lack of extra options against a lead, and when comeback mechanics kick in they swing dramatically, usually off some hail mary play. This kinda feels like it encourages desperation play when behind, which in my non expert opinion is probably bad. I think we want the game to make players feel encouraged to make a meaningful last stand as a team and not solo yeet onto a rejuv to pray you get the hit timing. I think some kind of base buff might be interesting, but that might cause other issues like games not ending against major leads
I somewhat agree... Except the punch race for rejuv is actually awesome, ensures mostly the most epic teamfights and moments in deadlock IMHO :D But I may be biased since I play Lash or Dynamo and like my ceiling hole:P
As someone with a similar experience to the creator of the video, I agree and disagree. I love that the rejuv is a melee last hit, compared to other MOBAs is just last hit and is MUCH easier stolen. I agree that it’s almost impossible for the losing team to get a rejuv (unless dying for last hit). As the winning team, forcing opps to fight in mid instead of under their tower is a very powerful team decision
I see what you mean, but I don't think it's terrible that games get polarized by rejuv. It certainly means sometimes teams will win for hitting that one punch, but I think that fails to take into account that when that happens it means the team who killed midboss failed to protect it. Also, I think it's incredibly important that the buffs for midboss are delayed as they currently are. If some of the buffs for midboss came from just killing it, carries could grab those basically for free whenever the other team took any time away from standing on mid. Characters like wraith or mcginnis especially (but other carries too) can shred midboss so insanely quickly and I don't think the game would benefit from having to always keep an eye on mid in case they wanted to do midboss at any time, even if it's just for half the buff.
way before the creep hp pool buff from the rejuv, i felt like midboss was a double edged sword. team, which has the rejuv, loses a lot of networth through the enemy creeps dying from the fortified creeps. also i feel like the jungle doesn't have much money to compensate for it. so if you didn't go in for the base right away in the previous patch, you gave a lot of souls to the enemy team from your lane creeps (because they didn't die from the weaklings). also, once again, if team with rejuv doesn't push right away, they risk losing a fight because of a couple of cheeky bought items, and then, losing another fight after the fast respawn if they get overconfident. i had lots of games that went exactly like that - winning team takes midboss, hemorrhages a lot of networth, dies once or twice, and the game is completely flipped now it is a bit different, because the fortified creeps are so much stronger and you can't push the line out of your base, let alone farm them and simultaneously fight the rejuv team. the main takeaway is that, i think, it could be balanced through changing the additional creep hp pool - i prefer the creeps before hp buff from the rejuv, but a middle ground between these two extremes is probably something that the game would benefit from
Personally i kinda how mid works rn i really do like a comeback mechanic without i think games would just be i omega boring/uninteresting. I agree 100% with the lack of wards ive said since for a while my biggest frustration is the lack of vision on the map when you get down it makes it really hard to push out and makes plays/catch up
@@dAmiNatus True, but I think Walloom's point is that aegis isn't nearly as all-powerful as rejuv. Yes, it can swing games, but unless you steal aegis and get out for free (insanely rare at high level), you haven't done anything except deny one extra life to the enemy team. In Deadlock, you can die punching rejuv, and flip the entire game on its head. Maybe you like that dynamic, but I think it's important to recognise the costs of that design choice (as laid out in the video!)
Dota is way less chaotic at median skill level than deadlock is. Also roshan is in a corner of a map meaning an entry point for the losing team is kind of limited and wards exist.
I know people will scoff at me for saying this but it feels like a zapdos coin flip from pokemon unite. I haven't played it since it was new but most games devolved into who took the midboss(zapdos) and that team would win 99% of the time. It made everything that came before feel a bit pointless.
i wanna know what your opinion of how the rejuv worked back in may is heres how it worked mid boss: had no significant changes, but i think you could originaly damage him while outside of the pit (i forgot if this was a bug or not) the rejuv its self was captured by standing on it for 6 seconds, if there was an enamy also standing on it the capture progress would be halted the rejuv buff would lower the respawn time for your entire time to 3 seconds, if you where dead while the rejuv was captured your next respawn would be 3 seconds instead the rejuv buff originaly did not make troopers stronger i think some of theese should come back tbh
Yeah honestly true, while i think the breaking point is more so about 45-50k, the game becomes very hard, which I guess is fair for a MOBA, but yeah the URN always feels like a chore to me, I would'nt be surprised if they just removed it and put another neutral mini-boss in the game. much appreciated gamer
Hi mate, I've played with you a few times in OCE games. I wanted to just support your thoughts by showing you a game I played today as Shiv at high oracle to low phantom. In this game, almost every lane lost, we were down 40k souls by 20mins. they took the first and second mid boss but we took the 3rd and won in a single push. Match ID: 29774698 This type of design is really bad and it feels slimy to win this way. let me know your thoughts. Thanks
@@GoronsCave Hell yeah brother OCE gamers Holy moly that sounds like a huge comeback, I've had that happen a couple times and it feels very demoralising for my gamer spirit Mid boss really be the catapult to a win Thank you friend
@@Glitchhss I appreciate your input friend, I have to be aware of my Dota 2 Bias in any case, I'm open to other ways of implementing it, I don't think I'm creative enough to think of something new unfortunately:(
I see what you are saying with being too samey to mobas is bad but is the rejuv being the only neutral objective in the game a meaningful way to make that difference? Its just the usual moba mechanic but cut down and swingy.
I realised I missed some context
The reason I keep talking about "Making plays are essential at every point in MOBAs, such as smoke of deceipt and wards in Dota" is due to the effect of being trapped in base when facing rejuvinator.
No way to move around creeps without being seen essentially makes plays incredibly difficult.
Another context is because I am restarted
Hope this helps!
Bros just salty cause he keeps getting his rejuv stolen
@@Jackledaman you're goddamn right
I quite like the fact that it can be stolen by a single punch. It just means you need to be aware of the enemy teams cc, and you’ll need to make sure that any players who can steal rejuv effectively (Abrams, infernus, wraith, etc) are able to be countered or killed beforehand.
The counter play to rejuv steals is guarding mid well enough that they can’t steal it otherwise that risk will always exist.
With all that being said I do think there is some merit into splitting the rejuv into 2 separate buffs one for killing mid boss and the other for hitting the crystal
Bro doesn’t want to by KD or Unstoppable 💀
Thank you friend, I appreciate your addition as well as the acknowledgement of my opinion brought forward.
Once I was pushing to steal rejuv, I was playing wraith with ult maxed so it was area lifting and an infernus was also around the corner with their ult about to blow up, the enemy shiv had unstoppable relatively early and reclaimed the rejuv, the infernus and I proceeded to scram
I agree and I’m glad you brought up the stagnation bit, when the losing team steals.
I see your point and semi agree with it but I feel like it is less about mid boss/rejuv and more about how deadlock late game is lacking in options for losing teams. You either go for rejuv and risk it for the biscuit or you play for picks and hope you can slowly come back because a team fight will probably fuck you up.
but overall I think you are right the fact that late game for losing teams is completely about whether or not you can get rejuv is really crazy
@@dogodogoob3114 Yeah 100%, I do think it is simply due to beta stage however I do feel it is essential to give feedback nonetheless. I do imagine they will implement more things to do. As ive said in another comment The jungle spawn times being so low also really encourages fights, however without ways to grant vision it feels kinda awkward for me. Maybe its a skill issue, but it do be a thing to ponder on.
Thank you dogo my friend I appreciate the input
@@dogodogoob3114 Good point. I think this comes down mostly to the lack of smokes and wards, as Walloom explained. It's also due to the reduced value of structural objectives (e.g. sneaking a rax is more impactful than sneaking a shrine.)
However, the design of rejuv directly contributes to both of these problems! The insane auto-push of rejuv creeps locks the losing team in their base, and deals huge structural damage if left unchecked. Like Walloom says, this makes it almost impossible to get out on the map and find alternate win conditions beyond "win the teamfight".
@@Walloom
No, yeah, absolutely. One should remember that it is a development build. But one should also voice the concerns, lest these possible issues go unchecked and make it _out_ of the dev build.
I get what you're saying, but I'm enjoying the arms race of outplays when it comes to punching the crystal. Maybe at some point this will lose its novelty, but right now the crystal having all of the buffs means you either have to wipe the enemy team to take it, or take a massive risk by doing it with enemies up. I think this generally makes the game more exciting, and makes going for that extremely overpowered buff an super risky decision that has to be approached carefully.
@@launchpadmcquack98 I like your point of view, it is refreshing to hear an opinion different to mine. While I don't fully agree I am glad that the current state is being enjoyed. I'm very interested to see the change of the meatball man MidBoss in the future
Thank you fren
@@WalloomI also really like how hero specific it becomes, tho this’ll likely get stale eventually with the current hero pool and no draft, but we know that’ll change. Being able to get a couple key picks on the only enemies with good steals before rushing a midboss is a fun thing to strategize around
Great thesis bro 😁unusually clear and informed points, given the presentation. haha
Spot-on analysis, agree with pretty much everything. Will share this!!
Thank you Goldfish you have bestowed a smile on my face
Great video! Just one additiional idea: In case of implementing it your way, the team that gets the kill + the rejuv are more than likely going to be the same since it's either going to be a team fully dominating it while the other team doesn't have the resources to challenge them or the other team is gonna run in last second to get a swift kill after a big mass stun + get the rejuv. I feel like just the fact that you wasted resources to do over 50% of the damage to the mid boss should be worth more than the last shot. A split second 50/50 buff scenario already exists via the rejuv punch, no need to up that even further with a last kill shot.
my team lost rejuv 3 times in a row
I LOVE U WALLOOM!!!
and I love you random citizen!
I also think it's a bit cheesy that some team comps and characters are better at securing mid crystal than others. Like if you yamato ult, parry and punch even 1v6 there's basically no way to stop it if someone doesn't have unstoppable. Even then it's just a coin flip of who perfect times the punch better.
Problem I have a lot with idea's from the community is its almost always under the lense of other moba games. While Deadlock is taking inspiration from moba in general, specifically Dota - I hope the game continues to have its own identity then just becoming another moba gimmick.
For the specific issue that mid boss is too strong - this is probably true and will be more apparent as teams and players get better. However I dont think its from a lack of wards and otherwise - those solutions preform differently because of the verticality of the game and the removal of top down gameplay. LoS is a factor in balance more then a fog of war.
if mid boss exists it should be a win condition and while changes might need to be made, that should remain true. There should be comeback mechanics, and the game should have deeper swings from mistakes the longer the game goes on. In my mind good gameplay is you must have viable diversity you can overcome, you must have many solutions to presented threat, and the game must provide some amount of randomness to keep it engaging while still feeling solvable.
Most competitive gamers want fair - but it usually ends up in restrictive gameplay (limited right ways to play the game) and casual players typically want easy solutions to hard problems.
No matter what the game should be simple at its root, but the many parts of the game adds complexity the deeper into theory and strategy you choose to go - at the root you should just be able to play like a moba if you want to, but it should never be as simple as you must play this game like a moba if we want deadlock to be its evolution to moba rather then the gimmick I worry and expressed of earlier.
I love you're wording on this it's really well said, while I do pull from Dota 2 alot, the 3rd person aspect is definitely a huge change and therefore huge mechanic overhauls, such as shared vision and map watching. It is going to be really interesting moving forward to see what the Devs think the problems are. I trust them 100% as they have produced such a fantastic game known as the Dota of the two.
Yeah the wards and smoke are something I really am just comfortable with, I do think there should be some vision tool added to the game to allow teams to gather information rather than running into other players, I trust this will eventually be added.
Although I do have an obvious bias to Dota 2, I must become comfortable with the uncomfortable and embrace the fact that this game is completely different at the same time. I think the main reason I compare aswell, is because of how well it works in Dota.
Thank you for your input friend.
Nahh if you're really ahead, it should be easy to block mid.
@@tweezerman123 a gamer can wish, I feel it is all up to who has a stun effect, since we have no drafting it is hard to build around MidBoss, if drafting was in it would be a lot easier to fill in the gaps.
Sometimes I think easy then I become an unhappy chappy if it gets yoinked from me :(
Thank you for your words gamer
@@tweezerman123 Not really! All it takes is one moderately tanky, moderately mobile hero on the losing side to buy unstoppable, and you've got a coin-flip for the rejuv even in a 1v6. It's not realistic to burst through 2.5k HP in under 2-3 seconds without CC, and there's no way to stop them having a punch at the crystal.
Do you really think you can check every single hiding spot near mid, while also killing the mid-boss in time before the enemy team respawns, while also being ready to co-ordinate to stop killing midboss or focus fire onto a surprise pocket at any moment? I don't think so, and as the skill level of the winning team increases, so does the skill level of the potential crystal thief.
I believe the randomnesss factor is currently overtuned.
I think that the buff it gives is super strong. But changing it might not be the best way arround it. Maybe you can split the benefits like getting the stats OR the lane power ups/Death timer on killing the boss itself, and then the other one with the last hit of the crystal.
Personally i think that giving the creep power up on kill, and the stats on the crystal, would make it so as a loosing team, you want to go only for the crystal, as a single punch can give you the stats needed to push the mega creeps with ease and open for plays.
Also, the mid boss kill should be harder to get, right now is only a big ass healthpool between you and the buffs, it should be more of a challenge.
that way, you get 2 oportunities to initiate a teamfight, 1 in the killing of the boss itself, and the other one in the crystal, while right now we only have a single fight where theres nothing going on other than waiting for it to land, burning cooldowns or playing parry/melee mind fights.
The loosing team doesnt get anything from fighthing on it. We need a harder midboss, the pit should be a place where you are SCARED to go in, not because a %health laser beam, but something skill based like dodging projectiles, knockups, etc, giving an advantage to the team Outside the pit, that doesnt take dmg at all and can play the poke battle to force a teamfight on the crystal or just play the fight with a 7th member on the team.
I love the idea and the video is really entertaining! As other people have been saying, urn is also a problem. Likely more than midboss. This is because, urn allows an easy way for one team to start a teamfight and if one doesn't, then that team earns heaps of souls. And generally if a team is winning, one of the best plays would be to just take urn and start another teamfight in which they will likely win in. This is sort of countered by the 10% urn catch up but even then, a teamfight can easily break out if the nearby walker is destroyed. This is then accentuated by rejuvenator advocating for a teamfight even further. Also, doing urn is boring unless you have like an ivy to fly you around.
Thank you my friend, I agree with your points 100%, urn feels so strange to do aswell, it is clear they want to make this MOBA more about fighting rather than farming which is understandable, but its a fine line until it gets to team deathmatch mode like before this last patch. Farming gets a bad rap however I think that jungle creeps should absolutely be a way to come back into the game, However right now it seems like fighting really is the only way.
Also yeah if i see like 6 jungle camps next to urn I find it really hard to justify running all that way to potentially feed it to enemy when I can just stay safe and hit creeps on my side.
Speaking of which I do think that jungle camps spawn incredibly slowly. It would be fine if roles were more defined and carries took the jungle but as of now everyone wants to farm, and in high mmr games the jungle is quite often completely empty.
Anyway thank you cookie cat you are a true gamer
I'm over here desperately hoping that this game does interesting things that make it less like other MOBAs.
This video makes me realize im in the minority. I gave it a try because i like third person shooters but now I'm thinking that the community prefers the parts I hate and I i should drop the game. It's gonna be basically Valve's Smite.
@@NaturesFlame Maybe? I totally get why you want the game to branch out and find its own identity. On the other hand, there's huge value in learning from the 15 years of hard-won experience that MOBA devs have in balancing a "MOBA-type" game. Remember, Valve explicitly set out to make a MOBA with Deadlock, so even if they do create something fresh and innovative, they still have to respect the core dynamics of that game type. You can't forge a new genre by just smashing what existed before - the process of innovating needs to be done with care.
@ImperialGoldfish oh, I get it, I was just optimistic. I figured they wouldn't want to cannibalize their DotA base. I figured they'd be more keen to aim for a niche that wasn't filled, rather than double dip and lose DotA money.
Valve has a ton of experience making MOBAs, but they have even more making shooters.
@NaturesFlame If I had to guess, I'd say Valve is looking to extend their reach in the MOBA space by offering a novel alternative. They know dota isn't going to attract many new players at this point in its life cycle, so they'll want to get another service up and running before dota starts to crash out. Again, just a guess!
I like the premise here but the solution definitely feels like "make deadlock into 3rd person shooter dota", which is probably a bad thing for the health of both games. If deadlock is just dota mechanics with shooting one will canabalize the other, or split players. It needs to be different enough it attracts other kinds of gamers.
I think as well for 4 lanes they probably aught to be less important. In any 3 lane moba you only need 1 person to play an adjacent lane and your team controls 2/3 of the main resources, but this is harder to do with the way lanes are separated. Split pushing works, but not as well rewarded as a 3 lane game
Where I'm fully on board is that games seem to snowball from lack of extra options against a lead, and when comeback mechanics kick in they swing dramatically, usually off some hail mary play. This kinda feels like it encourages desperation play when behind, which in my non expert opinion is probably bad. I think we want the game to make players feel encouraged to make a meaningful last stand as a team and not solo yeet onto a rejuv to pray you get the hit timing. I think some kind of base buff might be interesting, but that might cause other issues like games not ending against major leads
I somewhat agree... Except the punch race for rejuv is actually awesome, ensures mostly the most epic teamfights and moments in deadlock IMHO :D
But I may be biased since I play Lash or Dynamo and like my ceiling hole:P
As someone with a similar experience to the creator of the video, I agree and disagree.
I love that the rejuv is a melee last hit, compared to other MOBAs is just last hit and is MUCH easier stolen.
I agree that it’s almost impossible for the losing team to get a rejuv (unless dying for last hit).
As the winning team, forcing opps to fight in mid instead of under their tower is a very powerful team decision
I see what you mean, but I don't think it's terrible that games get polarized by rejuv. It certainly means sometimes teams will win for hitting that one punch, but I think that fails to take into account that when that happens it means the team who killed midboss failed to protect it.
Also, I think it's incredibly important that the buffs for midboss are delayed as they currently are. If some of the buffs for midboss came from just killing it, carries could grab those basically for free whenever the other team took any time away from standing on mid. Characters like wraith or mcginnis especially (but other carries too) can shred midboss so insanely quickly and I don't think the game would benefit from having to always keep an eye on mid in case they wanted to do midboss at any time, even if it's just for half the buff.
way before the creep hp pool buff from the rejuv, i felt like midboss was a double edged sword. team, which has the rejuv, loses a lot of networth through the enemy creeps dying from the fortified creeps. also i feel like the jungle doesn't have much money to compensate for it. so if you didn't go in for the base right away in the previous patch, you gave a lot of souls to the enemy team from your lane creeps (because they didn't die from the weaklings). also, once again, if team with rejuv doesn't push right away, they risk losing a fight because of a couple of cheeky bought items, and then, losing another fight after the fast respawn if they get overconfident. i had lots of games that went exactly like that - winning team takes midboss, hemorrhages a lot of networth, dies once or twice, and the game is completely flipped
now it is a bit different, because the fortified creeps are so much stronger and you can't push the line out of your base, let alone farm them and simultaneously fight the rejuv team. the main takeaway is that, i think, it could be balanced through changing the additional creep hp pool - i prefer the creeps before hp buff from the rejuv, but a middle ground between these two extremes is probably something that the game would benefit from
you know what would be cool? to have to spend your own rejuv buff to get megacreeps in a single lane
Its a lil hard to understand what your referencing from dota 2 since ive never played it
Making reju buff that prevent -20 seconds from breaking petron
Personally i kinda how mid works rn i really do like a comeback mechanic without i think games would just be i omega boring/uninteresting. I agree 100% with the lack of wards ive said since for a while my biggest frustration is the lack of vision on the map when you get down it makes it really hard to push out and makes plays/catch up
I mean Aegis is also could be stolen with a single RMB
@@dAmiNatus True, but I think Walloom's point is that aegis isn't nearly as all-powerful as rejuv. Yes, it can swing games, but unless you steal aegis and get out for free (insanely rare at high level), you haven't done anything except deny one extra life to the enemy team. In Deadlock, you can die punching rejuv, and flip the entire game on its head. Maybe you like that dynamic, but I think it's important to recognise the costs of that design choice (as laid out in the video!)
Dota is way less chaotic at median skill level than deadlock is. Also roshan is in a corner of a map meaning an entry point for the losing team is kind of limited and wards exist.
Josh plays deadlock 🧐
I know people will scoff at me for saying this but it feels like a zapdos coin flip from pokemon unite. I haven't played it since it was new but most games devolved into who took the midboss(zapdos) and that team would win 99% of the time. It made everything that came before feel a bit pointless.
The spirit urn is way worse at the moment in my opinion. Only ever favourable to the winning team
For real the urn making me feel the burn
i wanna know what your opinion of how the rejuv worked back in may is
heres how it worked
mid boss: had no significant changes, but i think you could originaly damage him while outside of the pit (i forgot if this was a bug or not)
the rejuv its self was captured by standing on it for 6 seconds, if there was an enamy also standing on it the capture progress would be halted
the rejuv buff would lower the respawn time for your entire time to 3 seconds, if you where dead while the rejuv was captured your next respawn would be 3 seconds instead
the rejuv buff originaly did not make troopers stronger
i think some of theese should come back tbh
I just want a bit more of a balance mechanic than Urns because once there is a 10k difference in souls, the game is over, even if all walkers are up.
Yeah honestly true, while i think the breaking point is more so about 45-50k, the game becomes very hard, which I guess is fair for a MOBA, but yeah the URN always feels like a chore to me, I would'nt be surprised if they just removed it and put another neutral mini-boss in the game.
much appreciated gamer
Hi mate, I've played with you a few times in OCE games.
I wanted to just support your thoughts by showing you a game I played today as Shiv at high oracle to low phantom.
In this game, almost every lane lost, we were down 40k souls by 20mins.
they took the first and second mid boss but we took the 3rd and won in a single push.
Match ID: 29774698
This type of design is really bad and it feels slimy to win this way.
let me know your thoughts.
Thanks
@@GoronsCave Hell yeah brother OCE gamers
Holy moly that sounds like a huge comeback, I've had that happen a couple times and it feels very demoralising for my gamer spirit
Mid boss really be the catapult to a win
Thank you friend
I had to stop at Roshan timer, you forgot the Banner, which boost creep for period as well. The current aura in Dota 2 is global!
I think youre spot on bro.
@@woutervanzyl8924 thank you gamer may you're blades never dull
Timestamps in the bescription gamers
Ur handsome and very cute
Real recognises real
Thank you gamer
i think 2 punches with a cooldown inbetween (on rejuve crystal) is unironically a good idea, thoughts?
Yes I wish it was mote like dota
A man of culture I see, Dota is imprinted on me like a carving in a stone
I understand ur perspective but this is still a moba shooter and devolving it to become to similar to one or the other would just feel worse
@@Glitchhss I appreciate your input friend, I have to be aware of my Dota 2 Bias in any case, I'm open to other ways of implementing it, I don't think I'm creative enough to think of something new unfortunately:(
I see what you are saying with being too samey to mobas is bad but is the rejuv being the only neutral objective in the game a meaningful way to make that difference? Its just the usual moba mechanic but cut down and swingy.