The Silmarillion (Part II)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2014
- We continue the lecture on J.R.R. Tolkien's book The Silmarillion. Since Tolkien was Catholic, we examine possible biblical and theological themes in Silmarillion. None of this is allegory (Tolkien hates allegory) but rather exploring how Silmarillion echoes these themes.
For the best books on Tolkien and his background check these out:
Tom Shippey's biography: amzn.to/2dChoJu
Classic biography: amzn.to/2dCh5hY
The Road to Middle Earth: amzn.to/2dCikOb
Ryan M. Reeves (PhD Cambridge) is Associate Professor of Historical Theology at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. Twitter: / ryanmreeves Instagram: / ryreeves4
Blog: blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/...
This is Lecture 13 in the course 'Lewis and Tolkienl'. All material is copyrighted.
For the entire course, see the playlist: • Lewis and Tolkien
One caveat here, Eru doesn't immediately breathe life into the dwarves. Eru makes Aule wait until after the coming of the elves to awaken the dwarves because the elves were his intended creation and the dwarves were not.
+The Dexeter And the elves and dwarves got along wonderfully until the Silmaril was put in Nauglamir
I found this very interesting, but I was disappointed when he started getting certain things wrong. Like saying that Varda tends to animals and plants, that is Yavannah. Varda is the angel of light, starts etc. Furthermore, the Elves do not know that the Dwarves were never meant to be, they were not there yet. The animosity comes from the fact that they steal the necklace that contains one of the silmarils, and in doing so, they kill the one Elven king. This causes a great battle between the Elves and the Dwarves. According to the Dwarves, they Elves betrayed the Dwarves that made the necklace. According to the Elves, the Dwarves betrayed Elven king's trust and caused an unnecessary war. Also, the book implies that the Elves are connected to the earth itself, for that reason, they have certain sway/influence over nature. That is also what their rings are based upon, fire, water and air......nature. They themselves are earth. That is why they are the caretakers, they even use their rings NOT to influence or dominate, but rather to preserve. Furthermore, the lower angel (Maiar) Melian, marries a king, she is the ultimate defender of the great Elven kingdom, for nothing evil can cross the borders, unless that evil is greater than herself, for example Melkor or Sauron. It is Melian that teaches Galadriel what is referred to as wisdom, not magic. Sauron's generals, the nine practice magic. The Elves, practice wisdom, ie. the understanding and the ability to "manipulate" the earth itself. Like boats that cannot tip over, cloaks that camouflage the wearer, rope that cannot break, blades that glow, the gift of seeing into the future (or rather possible future). The book also makes mention that if an elf dies, there is no soul to go to heaven, rather their being (they are almost like fleshed out spirits) goes to Mandos, which I understood to be very similar to purgatory, awaiting the end point of creation that God had made and envisioned. Its is correct to say that the Elves are not divine, but they are pure. The Elves that are NOT pure are orcs. Furthermore, the Elves are not really concerned by humans, for they see a bigger picture, so they are sometimes dismissive towards humans, for humans focus only (most often) only on their own lives, not caring about the rest of creation itself. The dwarves are obsessed with gold and jewels again. So the elves are "more" than humans, but not superior, rather like a guide or a conscience....which typical to human nature, is often ignored. It is the flaw of man. That is for example the reason that the nine human kings fell into the trap of the nine rings as devised by Sauron. An example would be the ability to defy the laws/effects/acts of weather, gravity, animals et cetera to a certain limit beyond the ability of humans, but less than the abilities of the angels or God. Furthermore, the Elves change during their long stay in Valinor, and even though the Noldor break the rules and leave Valinor, their influence on the Elves that stayed behind in Middle Earth, changes the Grey Elves (the ones that did not go to Valinor, and the ones that never lived in the light of the two trees) as well. In hindsight, I think that the Elves were placed in the world as originally planned, but given more ability to counteract the discord that Melkor (not Melkior) created. For indeed, even though the ultimate goal was humans, with the "weakness" that comes with being human vs the "strength" that comes with being Elves, and it is the valor that humans show in the face of danger, and the humility that is in the Hobbits, to the point of almost being pathetic, without the Elves and their slightly more than human ability, mankind would have fallen soon. Not for lack of trying, but because Sauron played an unfair game, using dark force, dark magic (Morgul), which humans could not really match. The seven Elven Kingdoms resisted the darkness during the Silmarillion book, while mankind itself was still too weak. In Silmarillion they face Morgoth, in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings they face merely Sauron, and even then they struggle. So the Elven Kingdoms were like buffers really. Humans helped in the battle, but they would not have done very well if it was not for Elven assistance. Through the book, arrogance brings evil, and the Valar and Eru answers it harshly. After all, the book specifically states that it was Eru that sunk the island of Numenor, not the Valar. It is however the Valar that banished the Noldor. Hence the gratefulness and sadness of Galadriel when she acknowledges that she will diminish and pass into the West and remain Galadriel.....She is allowed back, as well as her people, but in the same token, she will relinquish the power she has in Middle Earth, for where she is going, the angels rule supreme.
19:29 I'm pretty sure Varda was Queen of the Valar and was the Lady of Stars (hence the light). Animals, plants, and ents was Yavanna.
Edward Probst thats right, also Yavanna was Aule's wife, and makes the ents after seeing the dwarves and thinking I want my children (plants amd trees) to walk and be able to protect themselfs too
Well done and most excellent. I, myself, hold the SILMARILLON as my favorite book/story. The most difficult part of this book is understanding that everything has at least 2 names and there are no footnotes to direct the reader. For example, we can say the bathroom, washroom, head, or loo and they all mean the same thing. Literally everything from Mithrandir/Gandalf to Imladris/Rivendale has at least 2 names. There is no easy way to understand the complexity of this story unless one studies. I had to read and reread this book countless times. The end result is a much more satisfying ending with the Lord of the Rings and overall understanding of what Tolkien really did with his time on Earth. Bravo!!
Thanks Bindu. It was a fun class to teach though it felt like I could only cover 10% of what I wanted. :)
Very well done.. But if I humbly may comment: Animals, plants and Ents are the species mainly cared for and subcreated by Yavanna, spouse of Aulë. Varda's aspect was Light. Much of this can be read from the Book of Lost Tales. And from Morgoth's Ring. Though Melkor could wield a great brilliance, Varda surpassed him in the sheer understanding of light, and how it was originally more than just a radiation, but something that could cling to airs, streams and such. Light came originally in the qualities Silver and Gold, like the Two Trees. But when Varda left the Timeless Halls to depart for Arda, Ilúvatar called her and gave her portions of Magic Light, fresh from Him that Melkor did not know of. This Magic Light, that was also in the Trees, was later on only preserved in the Silmarils made by Feanor. As we know, the only remaining Silmaril was carried through the heavens by Vingilot, Earendel's ship. So, since we do not know if it still shone so after the Change of the World, Galadriel did an outstanding performance to catch it into Frodo's phial, probably using the enchanted Mirror and the power of her ring. This makes her surpass Feanor. Mentioning the Trees, Yavanna did create them, but she had help. The Trees would show forth their fruits emitting so much light that whole Valinor was illuminated, but it was Varda who created the containers in which the light was stored that was to be the sap of the Trees. And many of the Ainur had offices there to water the Trees with that light, in order to keep the Trees. I have some comments to you ranking Bombadil and his spouse over the Wizards. Clearly they were Ainur gone native, but I would rank them below the wizards. In BoLT1 we read that ainur came to arda in sheer numbers, the less powerful the more (sprites that sing in the fields..., Leprons and what they're not called, they must not be confused with the Elves, for they are from before the world). Maiar too have aspects; Gandalf seems to have come from Lorien's people, and Saruman from Aulë's. Radagast naturally was sent by Yavanna. Ossë and Uinen were maiar of the waters, related to Ulmo. I would rank them highest. Powerful also was Melian, who performed the outrageous act to bear child in the flesh like the Children, together with the Elf Thingol. Bitter she rued when her only child Luthien chose for the mortality of Men. Again here we see that doing so on your own device, without the permission of Iluvatar, is in fact a sin, but contributes to the glory of the Creator, for Luthien was the foremother of all the kingly kins of men, like the Kings of Numenor living long, and the family of Elrond that became so important at the end of the 3rd aera.
I'm an atheist, but I found both of these videos to be very interesting. I was raised Catholic, so I very much understand the Christian concepts you're talking about, and seeing how that might have influenced Tolkien is great. Watched the whole lecture.
Charles Marlow Stanfield I feel the same way
+Charles Marlow Stanfield // Thanks, Charles. Very kind of you to find interest and appreciation in my lecture even if we may differ in our worldviews. The world could use more calm reactions like this. :)
I feel the same way. I won't watch/read LOTR the same way again.
+Charles Marlow Stanfield AS do I feel the same way. The only thing I found "dissent" in the whole lecture was that pornography, and open adultery (if consented) as being a correction of sex. As a bi-sexual, this quickly turned my tone when watching. But that was just this one mans "over Christian" taken and not Tolkien's, obviously. But honestly, I understood most of these concepts after reading the Hobbit and LotR, and after the first 20 pages of this book, totally understood how Tolkien's mind worked. The reason I identify so heavily with this fantasy world.
+Charles Marlow Stanfield I am also an Atheist and I agree, especially since Tolkein was a man of such great faith, I think it's extremely helpful to get his works from the Faithful point of view, and really helps to get deeper into what he was making. Fantastic lecture.
If you want to learn more about the wizards (Istari) Read Tolkien's "unfinished tales" It explains more about the Wizards coming to Middle Earth. Also that Gandalf was actually much more powerful than Sauruman. Also Radagast is obsessed with nature because she was appointed by Yavanna (The Valar of nature) to join the company of wizards. You really need the Unfinished Tales to fill in the deatails
These LoTR lectures were a great introduction to your work, Ryan. Riveting material!
Thank you for posting these videos.
I've read the Silmarillion twice, many years ago, and have been tempted to go back for a third reading. This is whetting my appetite.
A great watch indeed. Love it the whole of it. Now wanting to read Silmarillion again.
I think another good point for why Gandalf doesn't fit the mold as any particular angel is he seems to be a visual copy of Odin. Wise old man, old robes, beard and a large hat (albeit with both eyes and a staff instead of a spear). I think Tolkien made him this way not only because it is a great archetype, but like you said as a signifier where he undercuts any inkling this fellow could be seen as Michael.
Also, I have read really good essays on Tom Bombadil being the embodiment of the Music. Hence why he is always singing and can even turn corruption with his song.
Really interesting lecture. Very engaging and informative. Thank you so much for sharing this.
Great work Ryan, very thought provoking ways to study literature.
I was just looking around on TH-cam and found these lectures and listened to them for hours! I hope I get a teacher as interesting and energetic as you when I get to college next year
Stumbled across this. very interesting stuff. Thanks Ryan
I enjoyed this lecture very much! I'm re-reading Lord of the Rings right now and I've been thinking about reading the Silmarillion afterwards but watching videos like yours is a good way to prepare me for it, or at least get a general understanding of it when I fail to read it, ha ha.
Thanks! All you can expect as a teacher, I think, is to make people want to read things for themselves, so I appreciate your comments!
The Elves are not sad because they are immortal but because of loss, the loss of the world as it was meant to be, and the loss of the cities and realms they made as close to perfection as they could. Valinor is a realm shaped by the Valar and therefore as close to perfection as possible, as beautiful as possible, and therefore almost enough to assuage their sadness, although they can never forget their lost created realms in Middle Earth.
You are a really good orator, for lack of a better moniker. Really enjoying your lectures. Thanks for posting these. My compliments Sir.
There is a mistake, Yavanna, the wife of Aule (the smith and the science of the earth) is the one who created the trees, and Ents was done by Iluvatar out of pledge of Yavanna. Varda the wife of Manwe is the creator of the Stars and Heavenly bodies.
Great catch. I'll fix that in my notes for the next time I teach it live.
Henry Otero Yes. And those stars were to light up M.E again after Melkor had plunged it into darkness for so long.
Hi Dr. Reeves,
I wanted to comment on the theme of Elves as a literary sort of foil to humanity, contrasting their immortality and sadness with the short lives of men.
Tolkien once made the comment in his analysis of Anglo-Saxon literature that the dominating, central theme of all Anglo-Saxon literature is "the death of man and all his works." This is conveyed in both wider Norse culture and in Anglo-Saxon as a kind of despairing nobility. Their worldview is ultimately one of despair because everything ends in death. This doom is inescapable. However, there is a nobility in the way that they face it because they do not give up. They do not surrender to despair. Their concept of honor is that you fight to the end, bitter though you know it will be.
Beowulf in particular, being written by a Christian but recounting the heroic deeds of the pagan era, brings into this sense of despair a final glimmer of hope. The despair is still there because within this world, there is no escaping death, but beyond this world there is more.
I suspect that Tolkien is playing up this idea with the contrast between elves and men in middle earth. There is a certain sense in which men are actually more immortal than elves. The immortality of elves is bound to the life of Arda (the world). The elves cannot truly die because their life is tied to the life of the world itself. As long as it exists, they must also exist. It is implied that once the world ends, the elves will also end. The elves are fading because the world itself is fading. They grow tired as the world itself grows tired under the weight of sin and brokenness.
There will be another music of Illuvatar after the end of Arda, and it is said that men will have a part with the Ainur in playing that music. It is not necessarily explicitly stated, but it is at least implied that Elves do not. In this sense the choice between elveness and humanity is the choice to embrace this world to the bitter end, comforted only by memories of glory, or the choice to give up this world for a mystery, an unknown hope.
In this I suspect Tolkien is playing up the contrast between the utter hopelessness of the old Anglo-saxon and Norse worldview, with the hope found in the Christian worldview.
Another important literary purpose of the Elves is found in Tolkien's conception of the importance of fairy stories. Fairy Stories, in order to do what they are meant to do, must have an "arresting strangeness". There has to be something about them that is strange in such a way that it grabs your attention. It must also be familiar in some ways. This is the mechanism that leads to 'recovery'. The idea basically being what Chesterton said on a number of occasions. If we are forced to see something familiar in a new and strange way, we can see it truly again for the first time. Our familiarity with things, particularly in the oppressive modern, materialist worldview, causes us to see them in a false way. We don't see the world as it truly is anymore. In presenting the familiar with that arresting strange element, we can recover the true vision of reality and shake off the false materialist worldview which often invades even our Christian understanding.
Thanks for the lecture Ryan. A few comments though:
1. As far as I understand, there is no lesser Mayar group that is clearly devided from the main Mayar group, but each Maya is 'measured' by himself.
For example- Gandalf('Olorin') is referd to as the 'wisest of the Mayar' in the book ('Of the Mayar' at the end of the 'Valaquenta'), so he can't be of a lesser group.
The 'Balrogs' and 'Istari'(wizards) are, simply, Mayar that manifested (for different reasons) in real bodies that can die. that's why they are lesser.
2. I would like to know how do you know Goldberry is a Maya (Besides the fact that it make sense) ?
3. 'Varda' is not the creator of animals, plants and Ents but 'Yavana' is.
Varda is the Queen of the Valier and creator of the stars.
4. The sun and moon wasn't created from the destroyed lamps but from one fruit and one flower of the dead 2 trees of Valinor
5. Not Isildur, but Elendil is the leader of Numenorian survivers, Isildur is his son, ruler of the southern kingdom.
Hope I'm helpful,
Thanks again
Outstanding analyses sir. Only piece I have to offer is of Bombadil. I feel the issue with this character occurs when people seek to categorize him. I'd agree with your general placement in the hierarchy, but I feel at the end of the day, this was largely just Tolkien's shout out to his children, as this character had his own little series he made for his kids, and Tolkien himself said he simply wanted to place him in LOTR to show there are things in the world going on outside of this ordeal with the ring. I'm just thankful he also explicitly stated he is not illuvatar, or some eggheads would be arguing that point until the end of time.
Any Chance for a Part 3? Would love to hear about Ungoliant, Melkior and the destruction of the Two Trees.
I believe it was Yavana wife of Aule who created the Ents not Varda. Varda is the star-kindler.
Thank you for posting this lecture. I really learned a lot and it gave me plenty to think about. I knew there were Christian themes in his work but I had difficulty pulling them out when so many fantasy works today have muddied the waters and taken similar themes in a completely different direction.
Hey I really enjoyed the lecture and found it wildly interesting, but I would humbly want to correct you regarding the Numenorians and the second age. I due apologise it’s a bit on the long side, but I hope you may find it useful.
As a start the race of the Numenorians (later Dunedain) were men of the three great houses Beor, Haleth and Hador called the Edain, whom as you correctly say aided the elves in the first age in the battle for the world. However, they don’t share the blood or any genetics/lineage with elves. After Morgoths capture the land of Beleriant was destroyed and sunk into the ocean and as a reward for aiding the war against evil, the Eru blessed those of the Edain with a long lifespan, if they wished to sail to the island.
As you correctly account for Elros was an Half-elf and son of the great saviour Ëarendil the Mariner (He sailed to Valinor to beg the Valar to intervene in the conflict, which they did and was the only ‘men’ to step unto the land of Valinor, for which a crime he would pay an penance till the end of days) and last descendent of two of the three leaders of the aforementioned houses chose to become a man (rather than an elf) and was therefore appointed by the Numenorians as their king.
Now originally these Numenorians were wise, brave and noble (as very much seen in the depiction of the Dunedain in the third age, especially Aragorn of course) and at a certain point in the second age (I won’t bother you with specifics) set out in naval companies, exploring the coasts of middle-earth and making settlements, coming to the ‘middle’ men (the men not belonging to the Edain, but also not belonging to the fallen Easterlings) as teachers of great wisdom and technology (the port Umbar is one such settlement). However, as the years progressed the Numenorians role shifted, they started to act arrogantly and superior, already far before being corrupted entirely by Sauron and became conquerors dominating the populations of ‘barbarians’ living there in order to ‘civilise’ them.
However as the years progressed, Sauron secretly build an army to invade Middle-Earth and does so, nearly conquering all of it. The elves beg the Numenorians to intervene and they do. The Numenorians invade Middle-Earth on a scale never seen before and destroyed Sauron’s forces entirely, marching all the way to Mordor and they manage to capture Sauron. Sauron is brought to Numenor and rots away in a dungeon for hundreds, if not a thousand years.
Now before talking about Sauron’s corruption, there is one thing you should know. On the island you had two primary royal family dynasties: both were descendent of Elros, but one were a line of the ruling kings and somewhere down the line, some split off and were made rulers of the province of Andustar (I think don’t quote me on the name). After Sauron managed to scheme his way into the king’s court (becoming his advisor and slowly converting the Numenorians already fuelled with a love of battle and a will to conquer to the cult of Melkor), the people of Andustar (both royal family and general populous) resists taking the name of the Faithful (Elendil, Isildur and eventually Aragorn are from this line), which Sauron makes them pay for dearly, by inventing a human sacrificial ritual to Melkor.
Again you were right to say that Sauron corrupted the men to long for elvish immortality, but they did not go to war with the elves. No what Sauron did was far more devious, he said that if the Numenorians would go to Valinor, there are the lands of the undying, there is where you can claim immortality from the Valar by force. So the last king of Numenor commands his nation to invade Valinor. Amandil father to Elendil was at the time lord of Andustar and like his far ancestor Ëarendil took a ship to Valinor to warn the Valar of this and beg them not to destroy his nation for their vanity (we don’t know if he managed to reach Valinor). From therefore on you were correct, the Faitful (however under leadership of Elendil, Isildur’s father) sailed to Middle-Earth with the help of their friends the elves, founded the two Dunedain kingdoms and went to war with Sauron a 'final' time.
This is such a fascinating lecture. Could you recommend anything to read further about some of the things you talked about here? Thanks.
I absolutely love Tolkien's work and I love discussing things in connection with it, wished they discussed Man's relationship with Eru, how when Elves awoke, they were given no special attention by Illuvatar, but when men awake Eru communicates with them directly before Melkor corrupts them. Wonder if they weren't corrupted if men could live as long as they wished without sickness but could give up their lives when they had enough of the world.
I'm also a student of Abrahamic theology, but an Atheist. I find the philosophies of it all very interesting, especially given the role it has played in shaping the modern world.
Now, on the topic of the Silmarillion, you mentioned around the two minute mark that the Ainur were shown glimpses of God's master plan. One of the theories about Melkors final rebellion is that he was shown the ending and decided to force gods hand to recreate the world because it all felt pointless to him.
You view Melkors discord of the music to be his fall from grace, but I view it as a first born son challenging his father and testing his bounds a bit. It is only after they are shown their peice of the destiny of the world that Melkor expressly head down to the world to destroy it, before then he refused to even enter it. Ironically, Sauron is the only being to ever successfully force Illuvatars hand when he corrupted Numenor and coaxed them into war on the Valar and the Elves. Sauron essentially succeding where Melkor failed.
Eitherway, the Silmarillion is full of depth, even though it doesn't work as a novel it's an essential companion peice to understanding tolkiens mythology.
Really enjoyed this, but you seemed a little mixed up about Numenor, and the Numenorian Kingdoms in Exile, Arnor and Gondor. Not that this was not a great lecture, it was, this is likely just the Tolkien nerd in me, the Numenorians and the exiled kingdoms are my favorite in the history of Tolkien's world. Thank you for this though, very well done.
I have to agree with your comment. It was a good lecture but some of the details were twisted or missed completely about the Istari and the Numenoreans. Then again like you said it's cause I'm such a Tolkien geek.
great lecture!
I think the reason Tolkien used music is that it echos many creation myths that suggest creation started with sound. God spoke "Let there be light." Hinduism says that the Hum of Ohm was what started everything. So I think Tolkien was keeping in line with those among others.
Awesome lecture, very insightful! I don't believe that is why there is strife between the elves and dwarves as stated in the Silmarillion however, but I could be wrong!
I've always considered the 'magic' used by the Istari to be more like those who are unplugged in The Matrix films, like Trinity and Morpheous. The Istari by virtue of having sung in the first music are more connected with creation, and can sort of bend the rules of reality, so to speak.
At least, that's how I've always thought of it.
Please don't forget the influence of the Kalevala on Tolkien's work! Finnish actually plays a great influence on the creation of the elvish language and Gandalf is largely taken from the Hero of the Kalevala.
My favorite part of the creation mythos is that the Dwarves were a mistake child. Aule wanted to make a race like the elves, but he didn't know what he was doing and made these bearded midgets. Always found that funny.
They were not mistake children. Aule didn't make a mistake. He was anxious, so made Children ahead of the awakening of God's first children, Elves. God imbued them with the Flame Imperishable but punished Aule by making the Dwarves sleep, thus making Aule wait for God to work as fast or slowly as he wants to awaken his children. God basically said, "God job, but bad boy."
Thanks Dr Reeves. I learned quite a bit. But this is the internet, and I have to pick a nit. Not about the Silmarillion, you added quite a bit to my understanding there, but regarding what constitutes the joy of literature. At one point you spoke dismissively of stories with flat characters and intricate "magical systems". In the Silmarillion, we were both fascinated by the chorus of the Ainur as a mechanism of creation. You spoke at length of how much you enjoyed that. Now, imagine whole books built around such juicy morsels, where the characters are little more than vessels through which to play with such ideas. If you can imagine that, you'll understand both science fiction and some of the magic-focused fantasy you criticized. (No, I'm not a Harry Potter fan, btw).
Sounds like you have read CS Lewis essay on Story - he clearly declared his awareness that different people could and did take very different impressions from the same author and sometimes a different one when reading it again when they were older. Lewis and Tolkein knew about the genre they called 'scientifiction' and it was from a single idea in one story which gave him the idea of spiritual beings being much more solid the more holy they were.
Prof Reeves, I thoroughly enjoyed your lecture--it was well voiced. I was wondering your thoughts on Ungoliant? The character is very thought provoking. Why do you think Tolkien added Ungoliant when Morgoth was portrayed as he was?
More please. Where can I access more of these lectures?
The wizards were sent to middle earth to help the Noldor repent after the sons of Feanor fled to the east. Not before that. Cirdan gives his ring to Gandalf when they arrive.
Very interesting talk, some life lessons there as well :).
I'm fascinated by creational stories and your talk on the Silmarillion has raised a question how to connect certain pieces. First thing, you mentioned that humans are sub-creators, creating imperfect creations (your daughter's drawing). Then there are the Ainur, created by Eru to create the world and thus they're sub-creators. However, Melkior wants to pervert Eru's creation by adding dissonance to their song. Eru however, fixes the notes and puts them in a good way into the symphony. And then you also mention Tolkien's words that good stories have tragedy.
How do you interpret the connection between these things? Maybe Eru is an imperfect sub-creator himself, creating imperfect sub-creators, the Ainur, one of whom brings dissonance (tragedy?). If Eru is a perfect creator, he couldn't have made a Melkior unless with the purpose to have the dissonance in the world song and Eru's fixing the symphony is a way to teach the other Ainur something ("everything can be fixed/it's not all predetermined/plans fail/..."). In this sense, evil (Melkior) is actually good disguised as evil that doesn't know it's good. Maybe Eru's plan was all along for the beings in its creation to ponder the problem of evil and realize that classifying something into real good or real evil is ignorance, that everything is a trade-off and thus too much good can hurt. And also, in order to create perfect sub-creators, the creator must create an imperfect creation. The whole essence of a perfect creator then might be the imperfection of its creations. And maybe a perfect creation is impossible at all since it would require infinite time, even from a perfect creator. Excuse me my possible barbarism towards existing work on the problem of evil, I'm a mere engineer.
Actually you are wrong about Varda, what you discribed is Yavanna "Kementari", the wife of Aule. She is the keeper of plants and animals and in a special way got the Ents from Illuvatar as a gift in return for the dwarves.
Varda "Elbereth Githoniel" is indeed the highest of the Valier, the female Valar, and the Queen of stars and wife of Manwe. The stars were the first thing the elves saw, when they entered the world and so Elbereth is perhaps the highest honored by them.
Yeah I see this critical, too. Although Tolkien truely put a lot of his christian beliefs in his world, it remains a complete different "fantasy-mythology" with a complete different meaning behind it. After all there is no person like Jesus in Arda, who is a human or elvish Incarnation of Eru.
The character closest to this might be Earendil, the blessed, because he is the one, who is determined to free the Children of Illuvatar from Morgoth and in the End he is the keeper of the last Silmaril, which now shines as light of hope for all, who fear the darkness, the star of Earendil.
The Jesus-motive appears in certain other aspects, but there is no such thing as an resurrected savior for Arda!
The Arkenstone as Maedhros Silmaril (Maglors was thrown into the sea) is a very interesting idea, which would somehow explain the important role it played for the dwarves and especially Thorin.
But I guess after all Gandalf would have discovered it, because he has seen it as Olorin, in the time Feanor wore all three of them in Valinor. The question is, if he would have say anything or if he thought keeping this as a secret to avoid more conflict between the Children of Eru (the dwarves included).
Well it is written, that only one Silmaril, Earendils star, is left and the other two are lost, but nothing remains lost forever ;-)
For me as an agnostic, Tolkiens mythology is as worthy and "true" as all the other mythologies, for ewample the christian one.
But there´s one thing, which I find in no religion described as clear and logical, as in the Ainulindale: The genealogy of evil! Theodize simply is no problem there and that´s a thing which makes it somehow superior. But of course I don´t expect anything from it, as for as I don´t ecpect anything from all the religions. If I had the choice I would stay with the "new gift of Eru" and take the path of the Attani to sing with the Ainur in the last symphony. Being an elf and immortal would be to depressing other time...
Tolkien himself on the other hand wouldn´t say his world is in any conflict to the christian view as he saw it mainly as a world only created for beauty, not truthfulness. And fun fact: thats the same purpose Eru and the Ainur had for creating the world. :D
No problem, this little mistake could happen with everybody, even the greatest Tolkien-geek.
After all it sounds a little bit weird, but Maedhros and maglor litterally had no choice besides acting that way, because of the very powerfull oath they had sworn. They are even talking about breaking it in the end, but they found there is no way out. In my opinion while reading the Silmarillon it becomes very clear that the elves aren´t any better then the humans, but just different and the kinslaying between elves isn´t a thing that happens only once, but at least three times, maybe even more often. The diffference is, that humans would die and after generations they would be able to forget about the differences and find peace again. The elves remain and they don´t forget about everything, that happend, which makes it a bit more drastic.
In a certain way I feel like I´d like to know more about Ungolianth for myself, but I´m more interested in her past: How did she got corrupted and how was she before? How did she make herself free of Morgoths dominance? I guess she wouldn´t have made a good antagonist in replacing Morgoth. Morgoth wants to dominate the world and anything in it, Ungolianth is simply hungry. She isn´t more powerfull than Morgoth in the way she could take his place. Even Sauron couldn´t do so completly, because Melkor used to be one of the Valar, even the most powerfull. Sauron and Ungolianth were only Maiar, unable to controll all the evil things Melkor created. Power and magic is a strange thing in Tolkiens world: It appears, that in certain situation the weaker are more powerfull, than the stronger. Take for example Frodod or even better Sam, who were able to resist the corrupting influence of the ring for a long time, where gandalf, as he said for himself, would have failed. So Ungolianth was never really more powerfull than Morgoth, just in one certain situation.
I love this video, but now i have so many new questions.
Great lectures! While I tend to find efforts to squeeze Tolkien into a specifically "Christian" framework tiresome, overwrought, and somewhat impertinent. Since, in the mythological timeframe, the events take place long before even "Biblical" time, Tolkien was very specific in NOT making the mythology "Christian" while still addressing Christian themes. Having a degree in Art History I appreciate the "compare and contrast" approach taken.
Minor quibbles: While I understand the tendency to want to place the Maiar into hierarchies, I don't believe Tolkien does any such thing. Like humans (and elves and the Valar themselves) they are individuals with different traits and tendencies and various degrees of skill and responsibilities. I think it does a disservice to the wizards to describe them as "lesser" Maia since they were specifically chosen and tasked to contend with Sauron, who was a very powerful Maia - as one would have to be to become Melkor's second in command. Gandalf (Olorin) did not feel himself strong enough for such a task, but Manwe counters by saying that that is the precise reason he SHOULD go: Sauron's sin is pride - Saruman falls to pride in attempting to match power for power with Sauron, while Gandalf never loses sight of his native humility and manages to overcome tendencies toward pride (which he has as well). If my reading is correct (a dangerous assumption where Tolkien is concerned!) the wizards come into Middle Earth AS men, not merely clothed as men, which makes them subject to the weaknesses and foibles of men, while still retaining the wisdom and skills of the Maiar (they never change their form while in Middle Earth, whereas before returning as a wizard Olorin was known to walk among elves and men unseen or as one of them). This is done deliberately because their task is not to engage Sauron as Maia vs Maia (the story is about man), but to encourage and enable the elves and men and other "free peoples" to find within themselves the strength and ability to resist and overthrow Sauron because the Age of Men is coming and man must now take on the responsibility of completing the work of creation. Whew! Somewhat more long-winded than I'd intended, but Tolkien is complex!
Bombadil is even more problematic as Tolkien resolutely refused to explain him because he felt the world needs mysteries and bits and pieces that have no explanation, but simply are. My personal feeling is that he can't be a Maia, as Sauron was a powerful Maia, and the ring contained much of his strength - enough that even Gandalf feared to take it. My personal sense in that he is of the order of the Valar but not one of the Valar. The Valar named in The Silmarillion are specifically called "the Lords of the Valar" which would certainly indicate that there are indeed others. Since Ea - all that is - contains much more than simply the earth, it is entirely likely that there were many of the same order as the Valar who were engaged elsewhere in creation about which Tolkien says nothing, as they don't enter into the tale. Bombadil may be one such (given the ring's lack of affect on him he would almost have to be) - who has staked out a little homestead in Middle Earth to simply enjoy and appreciate the work of the Valar and observe events as they unfold. Goldberry may well be a Maia - she's certainly not an elf - but once again, Tolkien simply refuses to enlighten us. It's a rather nice touch delivered with a wink.
Minor quibbles, not enough to distract from the point of the lectures, but worth noting.
Elrond's and Elros' great great grandmother is Melian of the Maiar - making Aragorn part of a line of divine right kings.
Just wanted to point out that the Ainur did not create men or elves through their song. It was Eru / Illuvatar. They are his children just like the Ainur are his children (the offspring of his thought). Every now and then Eru would add something new that did not proceed from the past (the song of the Ainur) which is another reason the Ainur / Valar could not know everything about the future.
+Turinsonofhurin // Yes, it it didn't stand out clearly in the lecture I say it's Eru/Illuvatar creating but the creative thing Tolkien adds is how he includes the 'sub-creator' songs of the Ainur in his song. Not that he needed them but he freely allowed them to play his melody. I'm mostly contrasting this with, say, C.S. Lewis who has Aslan singing a solo to create his world. I find it to be an interesting literary way of communicating our participation in the created world.
Brilliant !
I liked this videos, they helped me with a project, but there are some inacuracies. Lorien is a Maia, not a Vala, and Varda is the queen of light, not the queen of earth and animals and plants. That last title belongs to Yavanna, who is called Keméntari (literally, Queen of Earth)
If I remember correctly, the five Istari (wizards) were sent into Middle-Earth well into the Third Age (year 1000) to organize the resistance against the re-emerging shadow of Sauron. Sure, they probably played a role in Valinor, among the other Maiar, but they aren't mentioned.
+st r Gandalf was known as Olórin. As recounted in the "Valaquenta" in The Silmarillion, he was one of the Maiar of Valinor, specifically, of the people of the Vala Manwë; and was said to be the wisest of the Maiar. He lived in the gardens of Irmo under the tutelage of Nienna, the patron of mercy. When the Valar decided to send the order of the Wizards to Middle-earth in order to counsel and assist all those who opposed Sauron, Olórin was proposed by Manwë. Olórin initially begged to be excused as he feared Sauron and lacked the strength to face him, but Manwë replied that that was all the more reason for him to go.
waiting for more Ryan.....
Give me moooooooore :D
sploint NOW!!!
I studied Elvish (Quenya mode) very briefly when I read Tolkien's work, so it's weird for me to hear someone pronouncing the Elvish names in an English way.
I follow the story of Aule and the creation of the Dwarves differently. I see it as an homage to Abraham. Aule is impatient yes. Aule creates the dwarves, and then must use his own life force to instruct and develop them because he cannot create life of himself. Eru interupts him and chides him for making creatures who cannot live or have a life except when Aule controls them with his own thought and life force. That this kind of dominion is what his brother Melkor seeks. Aule, weeping because he loves his work but is obedient because he loves Eru, goes to sacrifice his desire. Because he chooses G-d over himself, his willingness to sacrifice his children, his Isaac, is accepted and his children are given life even as he himself is ready to destroy them. This is to me a biblical theme of sacrifice, that as we sacrifice what we desire for G-d's desire, He takes our desires through Himself and graces us more abundantly than we could have ever achieved on our own merit.
I greatly respect the intention to analyse Tolkien with a christian mindset in a rational way but I'd like to criticise the fact that a number of pagan "pre-christian" themes are pushed aside.
Tolkien was a professor of anglo-saxon, studied norse sagas and languages as well as finnish and its mythology which has to have had an impact on his writing. For example, the concept of a "battle to end all battles" is central to norse mythology as "ragnarok" and precedes christian mythology by quite some time. Tied in to that is the more vague idea of valour and bravery in the face of defeat. Tolkien's elves speak of "the long defeat" which they know they will lose but won't surrender, something that comes up regularily in northern european, pre-christian mythology.
+Jonathan Stummer // Hey Jonathan. Great points, and ones I share, though this is only one slice of the entire course. I'm big on making sure we understand Tolkien as blending Christian and pagan elements--which of course is true of a large number of texts from Anglo-Saxon literature. These themes would be, more or less, one facet of the story I'm trying to explore (and one often overlooked, I find).
Love it' thanx!
Elbereth crafted the stars. Yavanna produced plants and animals.
It's actually spelled Melkor (mell-core), isn't it? Unless Tolkien has some sort of inflectional rule that I am unaware of, and that demanded an alternate spelling.
Just for clarification, when you say "pagan religions", is that meant to refer to all non-Christian beliefs, all non-Abrahamic beliefs, or some other specific subset of religions? I'm just curious, because personally I've mostly seen the term used to refer to either Norse mythology (which, of course, Tolkien did draw quite a bit of inspiration from) or forms of religion with less specific god figures that more worship broader natural forces (like druidic beliefs), but I noticed you referred to "Jupiter", a Roman god, as the example.
Where did the Hobbits came from? Were they also creation of some gods/angels?
Not for sure if these comments are being read or not. With the way the lecturer was willing to answer questions ad hoc through the lecture I'm going to guess "yes."
Tolkien was a professor of Old English and a polyglot that spoke, read, and wrote most languages, yet his lectures were nearly unintelligible because he spoke with a pipe clasped in his teeth as he lectured. His biggest pet peeve, when teaching, was when people would use replacement words when perfectly good word words existed to describe the subject at hand.
When he was child in South Africa before his father died (nearly writes passed, he'd of hated that) at the tender age of 5 had developed a secret language that he and his brother spoke to each other in. That language evolved over time into the elvish language in his books, an evolution that followed him through his entire career as a linguist and produced the first fantasy language that has the character of a living language. This is the reason for the shift in name of Morgoth/Melkor as well as for other name and word shifts. As a language ages it develops the capability and capacity to describe things it could not in the past, and therefore the names it use for certain things (or sometimes just the spelling) shifts.
The other thing, when Illuvatar broke the world and made it round he removed Valinor from the circle of the world. After that point only the special swan ships could find their way, all others would sail around the world.
Last item :). Tolkien was a devout Christian, having been raised half his childhood by a Catholic priest. It is expected that his fairy stories should tell a story reflecting Christian values and mores, including the idea that creation is the product of the mind of the father god "Iluvatar", yet he told people he was inspired to write an epic tale focused around heroes from a place so like rural England because England (as opposed to Celtic Britain) did not have its own Faery tradition. And he wanted it to exist in a time before man was the only teller of tales (which from his Christian perspective places it well before the time of Sumer or Babylon or any of the Biblical accounts after the first few chapters).
Oh, I just remembered one final thought. A student asked why music? As a student medieval literature Tolkien would have been familiar with the concept of the music of the spheres. It was believed that the choirs of heaven did exactly what he had he creatures do: sing creation into existence. The song of creation is called "The Music of the Spheres". (It's more complicated than that, but it's the short answer to the student's question.)
Rev Dr Ted Sweet, DD, MsD
Hi, I really enjoyed these lectures. But I have one question.
How come you say that Eru created the world when it was constructed by the other Gods?
If by "other gods" you mean the Ainur, angels, they carved out the inner world. God created the world.
thank you for this videos. dont get me wrong, but i think there a some things u might have missed. for example the reason for the valar sending the istari. or gandalfs context to fire through the connection to Ilúvatar, Aulë and Narya. And how this connection unfolds in the way how gandalf becoms the counterpart to sauron. with his nature, mandate and notably Narya. He strenges the fire in the hearts of all. this was exactly the reason he was send. as a counterweight. an expression of Ilúvatar bringing a conclusion to Melkors dark efforts while singing the Ainulindalë. the hole books could be seen as a literal perspektive on the Ainulindalë, and the nature of the Ainulindalë itself as a way to find ease in an often cruel and absurd looking world. again, thank you.
Sauron was one of the strongest of the Maiar. Gandalf and the other wizards are not "lesser" Maiar, in the sense that they are lower class beings the way Maiar are to Valar, they are just not as strong as Sauron.
Bombadil, I believe might have been a Valar. Not all of the Valar and Maiar are named, but compare Gandalf's reaction to the One Ring vs Bombadil's. Gandalf is afraid he will be tempted and fall if he takes the ring and he is more or less on par with Sauron, if somewhat weaker. Bombadil on the other hand is totally unaffected by the ring and even sees right through it's power. That suggests he is on a level higher than Sauron which would mean he is a Valar most likely, although he may have been a less powerful one than the named ones such as Manwe, Aule, etc. In addition, there were some of the Ainur who entered the world after it's creation, Tulkas and Ungolant being examples, it has always been my opinion that Bombadil was one of these later arrivals who didn't dwell in Aman but instead chose to enjoy his little piece of the world, whether Maiar or Valar he was powerful enough or pure enough that he had no temptation for the ring and it had no power over him at all.
I should also say, that I am rather enjoying your lectures on the Silmarillion.
where can I find a copy of the first map you showed?
My eyesight isn't the greatest so when I tried to listen to an
audio book of the Fellowship of the Rings it was pretty confusing to me
with the Elven names and things like that. Would Silmarillion alleviate some of that
because it seems like purely from only watching the movies, these lectures have
explained a lot.
Sorry for the edits grammar ugh haha but I did really love The Hobbit but it seemed easier to understand for me personally. Even with all of those crazy Dwarven names.
Given the significance of saying what Elves represent in Tolkien's world, a greater significance should be given to Elrond and Elros being given the choice of which race to be counted among (being of mixed blood).
@29.25 - Don't forget the Anglo Saxon themes. Gandalf is very defiantly a riff on Odin
I'd love to be at this lecture, live. Do you tour schools, or is this only at GC?
Hey man. I tour schools but only if they invite. Otherwise I am live at GCTS in Jacksonville or here on the TH-cam channel. But I"m not exactly an old guy and I haven't published specifically on Tolkien-Lewis, so let's just say I'm not invited often to places. :)
+Ryan Reeves So why haven't you published on Tolkien and Lewis yet? if this lecture is anything to go by you have a good feeling for Tolkien's universe, and you seem far less bothered than most evangelicals by his Roman Catholicism. That should stand you in good stead when dealing with Lewis too, come to think of it, since he was far more High Church than most evangelicals are comfortable with either (he deliberately toned down his denominational loyalty in his published work, so as not to put obstacles in people's way). So get out there and add to our understanding of these two faithful Christian authors!
Why didn't you spoke more about the plot of the story in Silmarilion? I refer to the revolt of the noldorin elves and their leaving from The Undying Lands and other thing like that. I see there a lot of christian motifs as well is those stories. Their departure from Aman I always see it as a Genesis 3 and their failure to defeat Morgoth as our incapacity to overcome evil through our own strength. Morgoth is defeated only when elves, through Earendil, ask for forgiveness and the Valars come themselves to fight Morgoth. I would have liked to see more about those things. On the other hand I enjoyed your lectures on Tolkien's mithology.
So in some sense dwarfs are like Ismael the hurried one instead of Isaac the promised son (elves/humans)?
Tom Bombadil cannot be a Maiar unless he is a special one because he is not corrupted by the ring where as the other Maiar are, (also there is no such thing as ''Lesser Maiar'' this is a mistake the reason the Wizards and Balrogs etc are not super powerful angels like Sauron is that they are bound by Mortal flesh and have resided in Middle Earth for so long that they have forgotten many things where as Sauron is not bound by flesh, he is still essentially immortal where as the wizards actually age albeit very slowly and the Balrogs are bound to a certain form also)
close. balrogs, sauron, wizards, all Maia. some are stronger than others. sauron is the strongest Maia. the balrog could have used the ring. this guy is completely wrong saying lesser Maia
I believe Bombadil was simply Ainur doing his own thing (not in Melkorian sense). When other Ainur came to Arda they organized as power structure with hierarchy in which position was determined by strength of individual Ainur. Strongest are called Valar, not as strong as Valar are called Maiar. There is clear rift in personal strength between Valar and Maiar but they have relatively same strength within their sub-group. Some are stronger than others but not that much to make another sub-group within power structure. Bombadil was not part of this power structure and therefore cannot be called Valar or Maiar. He can be compared to them but he is not part of these sub-groups. He was obviously stronger than Sauron because his creation - the one ring had no ill effect on him. But was he stronger than lets say Lorien? Maybe, he could have been strongest Ainur or Arda right after Melkor. That would explain why Melkor didn't killed him (or better say remove him from Arda) and why Valar never incorporated him into their power structure.
I heard that Tolkien originally conceived of the Maiar as being the children of the Valar in a more literal way (no pun intended, lol). And then he kind of backed off from that whole idea because of the implications... Anyway. Sometimes I find it easier to get a handle on some of the many Maia spirits by thinking of Sauron not as the apprentice of Aule but as his actual son. And maybe the Istari are, say, the great-grandchildren of the Valar. In fact, I believe Tolkien loved numbers and tried to create symmetry-- Originally there were only seven Balrogs, to counter the seven sons of Feanor. The Balrogs were Morgoth's literal sons.
But all that was changed. Do you know anything about that or have any insights on that point. Thanks.
First, I thought It was a very good and insightful presentation. However, I think your active side-stepping of what are clearly pagan (i.e. Nordic, Celtic mythological) elements is demeaning a bit to Tolkeins work. Tolkien had an immense knowledge of mythology and the book clearly reflects that. That being said most of the ideas of the "creation" are both biblical and mythological and he intertwines them just as perfectly as the christian religion itself intertwined pagan ideas throughout the years.
For example although you can call the Valar Angels you can just as easily relate it to Nordic Mythology whereas Eru is Odin, and the rest of the pantheon are the Valar, the lesser gods are the Maiar etc. These archetypes are found throughout all creation stories be it pagan or monotheistic.
First time I came across these elvis creatures they looked like an angel, they walked like an angel, they talked like an angel.
But I got wise ...
the only thing is ive read this book several times and it is clearly spelled Melkor not Melkior.
Do you think David was like 'Owle' as he decided that God needed a temple that he had not asked for in all of time [as the earth was 3000 tears old or more] and God did not build himself a giant and masterful temple to outshine the pyramid of Egypt.
Hi, does this mean Saruman is also a lesser angel, so in a way, he should be higher rank than Sauron? also, if he is a lesser angel/demon being, how come he's killed by Wormtongue?
nvm, ignore my post
Sauron is a very powerfull and great Maia, greater in power than any of the Istari (the "wizards"). Also, The Istari are sent to the Middle Earth to help the free people against Sauron, but they are also prohibited from using their full powers.... Sauron has no such limitation, hence he's way more powerfull.
As for Saruman death: after the battle of Isengard, Gandalf shatters Saruman's staff and expell him from the Order, casting him down... which basically means that Gandalf the White, in this instance acting with the autority and power of a full fledged Maia and by the will of the Valar, binds Saruman to his human and mortal form. That's way he can be killed by Wormtongue.
thanks for the reply, i actually just bought silmarillion and is reading through it, pretty interesting book, though so many names/terms to remember
Max Ma you are welcome. Yes, the Silmarillion is not an easy book to read if your intention is to remember everything... you can do it, but it takes some effort and, unless you are interested in every detail of Tolkien's lore, is not actually necessary... just learn the basic events and characters...
I wouldn't say that Gandalf was able to act with the full authority and power of a Maia when he returns in his "white" version. Rather that he was able to use the level of power that was previously allowed to Saruman as head of the order.
My understanding of the Istari is that they were not simply Maia that were not supposed to use their powers. It was that they were sent to Middle Earth in physical forms that didn't have their Maia powers. Their physical forms were able to be killed , to suffer pain, hunger and all the rest of it.
I am not a Christian, and I wanted to let you know that I found your lecture to be outstanding. I have been wanting to dive deeper into the Lore of Tolkien's Middle Earth and have been searching for videos with information, and your series is sooo good. I love the facts from the books, and I have been aware of Tolkien's religious background and even noticed some connections with the bible myself yet your video achieves both a background on the lore and a religious study at the same time. You come across very very fair in your assessment with what Tolkien created for the sake of the story and what scripture he pulled from. I'm sharing this with all my ring fans because the quality is outstanding and way to make a series of videos that triggers a reflection and discussion by Christian and nonchristans alike. Lay hah-non!
I was just wondering how Bombadil was able to stay unaffected by the Ring, when the wizards where so affected by it? Unless the categories also mean they have different levels of "power"(I have always loved the part of the books where he is in, so sad it wasn´t in the movies, and I suspected he was special long before I heard this about him :) )
Nikolaj Lund Madsen There is a mistake in the slide where it says tom bombadil is a Maia, but we definetely know HE IS NOT. He says himself that he was the first in the world, in Arda even before the Valar came. Which would mean that he is either the first of the Valar to have set foot on Arda or that he is an entirely different race or being. You should look up the ' tom bombadil theories'. Never did JRR or Christopher say anything about his origins so what Tom Bombadil exactly is is a complete mistery. Some believe he might even be Eru Illuvatar himself.
cause he was happy with the world and didnt want to change anything
+Nikolaj Lund Madsen - seem to remember a reference being made that this was because Bombadil existed before the One Ring came into being, as opposed to almost everyone else who came in contact with the artifact.
Woodland Fox Well... the kings(who turn into the wraiths) also exist before the One ring was forged, and surely so must Galadriel and the wizards have done...
I suspect, there is more to the reason than that, if it is part of it :)
you may be right, and the notation about beings of power preceding the One Ring would be true of Galadriel and the Istari, but not the mortals.
Hey Ryan -- Even though I dont number myself as one of the faithful here, I am enjoying your presentation; however, the slide at 19:57 is wrong. Varda (Elbereth) is the "Lady of the Stars" -- you got your female Valar mixed up. The profile you have listed there is of Yavanna Kementári. And Varda bears particular relevance to me, because I have a question for you: its mentioned that Varda and Tulkas Astilando (the Fighter) came from outside the world. Its unclear if she was Valar or not. A simmilar thing is true of Ungoliant, mother of Shelob who desired to devour the Silmarils. Could you clarify your view on what these "spirits" actually were?
Also, I am not going to discount your position on why the Elves hate the Dwarves being because they were not supposed to have been created, but I thought it would have been more apparent that the dislike of the dwarves isnt generalized among the elves, but is rather specific by Elven linage. The two groups that would have reason to hate dwarves would be the oathbearing Noldor --which to my memory I cant recall a single example of, and the Teleri Grey Elves of King Thingol of Doriaths court --here I remember an example in Celeborn, the mate of Galadriel, and possible kinsmen of Cirdan the Shipwrite. Galadriel, a Noldor Oathbearer chastises him about being mean to Gimli. It also it makes sense that the Elves of Mirkwood might have some of that in them too, being that they too are Wood Elves as well, but its more likely that has to do with recent events surrounding the Lonely Mountain, Smaug, and the Battle of 5 armies. Nerd stuff aside, you will recall that the Dwarves back stabbed the elves of Doriath after being commissioned to mount a Silmaril in Nauglamir, a necklace of fabled beauty. This event resulted in Thingol, king of Doriath dying, and it is mentioned that Celembor was in Thingols court.
Lets recall the occasions from lore that we know the Dwarves and Elves worked together
First Age
1.) They built a road from their fortresses in the blue mountains to trade with the elves
2.) They excavated the capital city of Wood Elves, Menegroth
3.) The the walls for two cities of the Sinda Elves inhabiting the mouths of the Sirion
4.) They excavated Finrod Felagunds Fortress of Nargothrond
5.) They participated in the Union of Maedros, and lost their King Azgahal during the Ninarith Arnoead (the battle of unnumbered tears)
6.) I seem to recall them being commissioned to create weapons for one of the Elven Kings, but I dont remember which. But huge numbers were forged.
7.) As mentioned above in the initial response, they were commissioned to mount a Silmaril on Nauglamir the dwarven made necklace
2nd Age
8.) They excavated King Thranduil of Mirkwoods Halls/City
9.) The time frame ambiguous, it could predate the 2nd age, but the Dwarf Road through Mirkwood Forest was built at some point
10.) The Dwarves of Khazad Dum built and traded with the entire Noldorin Elf City State of Eregion just beyond the very gates of Khazad Dum
11.) The Elves of Eregion went into Khazad Dum and performed many great works of art to beautify the dwarven city
12.) The Dwarves of Khazad Dum and Eregion to my memory assisted in creating the Rings of Power; albeit, their exact contribution is difficult to assess. It may have just been the art of creating rings generally.
13.) The Dwarves fought against Saurons claim to the both the 7 rings given to the dwarves, and the Ring Celebrimbor himself posessed straight up to the destruction of the Elven city of Eregion at the base of the gates of the dwarves of Khazad Dum
14.) The Dwarves of Khazad Dum ferried survivors of the city of Eregion beneath the Misty Mountains to the Elven Kingdom of Lothlorian.
15.) It is mentioned that "Every race save the Elves was divided" in regard to the Armies of the Last Alliance --implying that there were Dwarves among the Last Alliance of men and Elves
3rd Age
16.) Traded with the men of Dale, and the Elves of Mirkwood.
17.) Settled in the Blue Mountains, and traded with the Elves of Lindon and the Men of Eriador (albeit in poverty)
18.) Came to the Council of Elrond to commit Dwarven blood to the war to come
19.) I seem to recall, but am not certain, that they allied with the Men of Dale and the Elves of Mirkwood to fight the war in the North against "Redbeard" Easterling Army
20.) Gimli and Legolas became steadfast friends.
Anyway, thats just what I noticed. I have been out of High School for over 10 years now, and it was sometime during that period that listened to an audiobook version of the Silmarillion.
Interesting and fun but there are some errors. Skipping the ones mentioned earlier, about the two trees and two lamps. Originally there were two lamps Illuin and Ormal in the north and south of the world. The Valar lived on the island of Almaren. The Valar would create and Melkor would destroy things as the world was being created. Melkor tore down the two lamps and caused massive destruction tearing the continent apart. At this time the Valar fled over to Aman and established this as their home of Valinor. Yavana kindled the two trees Telperion and Laurelin which lit Valinor. Over in Middle Earth the elves were awakened at Cuivienen. In time many of the elves came to Valinor and this period was called the time of the trees. Yadda yadda yadda a lot of stuff happens, years pass and Melkor brings Ungoliant to the trees where she drains them go light and life. The Valar ask Feanor for his Silmarils to help rekindle the trees and light but he refuses.
Gandalf is the Elder of the congregation, the shepard of the flock.
and the Numenoreans knew to well who sauron was. he came prisoners. but at that point Numenoreans where already to boastful. ... such an interesting book. i can only recommend to read it
People hate on the new hobbit movies alot and yes there is stuff just made up like TAURIEL but little do they realize they added a lot of stuff from the appendices and other things that do exist in the universe but it just wasn't in the hobbit book, its like The Hobbit the ultimate Peter Jackson edition.
what are Ents...are they same deal as dwarves?
They're kinda like living trees. "Sheperds of the forest"
Greed Ling yea I was asking how they came to be but they are apparently creation of Eru himself :)
They are kind of the same deal as dwarves. As a response to the creation of the dwarves, a different valar (forgot her name) worries about the trees so she gets permission to create the Ents as shepherds of the forest. (sidenote: She also hopes for the eagles to built their nests in her trees, but as a tradeof the eagles will built their nests in the mountains.)
lamebubblesflysohigh. yavanna, wife of Aule went to Eru after Aule made a comment about how men and dwarves would have need of wood for their towns and fires. she lamented and he let her make her own creatures to protect the trees she'd created.
Remember not all creation comes from god him self but through other forms by him.
Tolkien and Lewis write, to make the reader so entertained, that
they don't mind being "Preached" to.
the only problem i have with this discussion is his miss labeling of the Wizards in Tolkien, the wizards are called Istari, and they are students of the Maiar. Other than that I find this rather enjoyable
no. wizards are Maia. oloin is Gandalf and he studied under Loren to be the wisest Maia. read silmarillian
I have read it, the five wizards are referred as Istari, they are part of the Maiar but not at the same level as the Maiar
Your sentence doesn't make sense- 'they are part of the Maiar but not at the same level as the Maiar.' That's like saying, 'they are men, but not at the same level as men. They are Maiar exactly as powerful as Sauron. Istari is the name given to them by the Elves, once they arrived in Middle Earth. Sauron became more powerful in Middle Earth because of the One Ring. Previously, he was feeble enough to get taken down by a big dog.
nathanilt absolutely incorrect. A Maia is a Maia. Please show me your references, book and page number please. The istari are Maia like all the other hundreds of Maia, including sauron and balrogs. Some are stronger than others and some are wiser ext. When I read these works, LOTR, silmarillian, hobbit, books of the lost tales 1&2, and unfinished tales, I had NOTEBOOK paper out, writing things down because of the cast detail and complexity of character relationships.
CaptainSantaMusic close but no cigar. Sauron was always extremely powerful, the first or second most powerful Maia, perhaps behind queen melian the Maia of Doriath. In the making of the ring of power, sauron infused his own innate power to an earthly object. It only made him stronger in that he was able to directly influence the wills of other beings through their use of his tainted objects. It did not necessarily grow his power, just allowed him to attempt domination in a different way. He became very vulnerable by doing this. However, when he was captured by ar pharizon the golden, last king of nummenor, he left the ring in barad dur and went as a hostage to numenor. When the island was destroyed, he remadenhis body only because the ring was in a separate place, kinda like horcruxes in Harry Potter. Gee, wonder where she got inspiration for her books...
I've always thought Gandalf to be like Odin; the wanderer, the wise
Tolkien, in my view, really struggled with how he wanted the elves immortality to be treated. There's a good way of looking at the elves immortality. He talks in the Silmarillion of the elves having immortality only as the world, or Arda, has immortality. I always looked at it like this, if the world were to be destroyed the elves would no longer exist or would exist in some other plain of Eru's mind. I don't feel that that immortality is the same as, say, the Ainur or Eru himself. If the word, Arda, were to be destroyed the Ainur and Eru would still exist in Ea or outside.
A point that often gets missed is that even when they die, Elves are eventually born back into the world again. They literally have no escape, which is what they envy about Men. When we die, our souls go elsewhere, outside of the created world. This is why, although death is so hard and scary for us, it is called God's gift to Men (by the Valar and by the Elves, at any rate).
***** I can't seem to lay hands on my copy of the Silmarillion at the moment, but you might want to review the passages about the role of Námo, the Vala known as Mandos, and how the souls of the dead visit his halls and where they go afterward.
Gandalf in his look and mannerisms is very similar to Odin.
The most important question is: Were CS Lewis and Tolkien drinking buddies...?
Eh, something like that. I don't know about drinking, but they hung out together. Lewis took Tolkien to see Snow White, as an example of how Hollywood converted (perverted?) stories to film. At the time, Tolkien was looking at the possibility of a movie based on his work.
Yes. Absolutely.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inklings
Which met at this pub, can still visit their spot today:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_and_Child
for me the magic the wizards posses are: Knowledge.
simple as that. they are their to guide with their magic aka knowledge of the whole thing.
the ainur might be referring to the Elohim, referring to Genesis where it says "Let "us" make Man in our own image. In Genesis there are those two words for God, Elohim and Yahweh, and there's a plural sense of the word with the Elohim. The angels are more like the elves. the first born.
Hi Dr. Reeves... So do you think Gandalf is based on the Archangel Michael? Or, well, I know you said you think he is not, but is there a little bit of the Archangel Michael in him? Or, well, maybe that's putting it the wrong way. What I mean is: is it possible that he's like a little Archangel Michael? Not as in a little bit LIKE the archangel, but is himself a Little Archangel Michael. Like a Mini Archangel Michael. Almost like a Mini Me, but with regards to the Archangel Michael. And Gandalf. The two being one and the same, basically. Gandalf = Archangel Michael. Does that makes sense? :-)
I am also an athiest and I found this lecture fantastically well explained and very interesting, makes me more interested in religious works and symbology. You are great at teaching. great job.
I am an atheist and I too enjoyed this video. Love the insights and similarities of his lore to Christianity.
Ryan everythiong tolken says actually is real.maybe some names have been alterd but the alteration is slight. the Maiars (ma i ar / i am ra ) are real the shape of the earth is the way tolken says and the undiing lands are beneath us where the green lamp is circling above them.but the thing is something is missing.something important...
I find this lecture very enriching. What I'd like to comment on, is one common mistake. Elves in Tolkien world are not immortal. It's people who really are. "Death" of Men is just a nature of them to went off to Eru's side, putting them on pair with Ainurs, whether elves "are bound to the Arda, for good and bad", what makes them impossibly old, but will perish, like every thermodynamic imbalance... It's interesting, and I think it's more me than Tolkien, but it's somewhat parallel, men-elves and mind-physical world, those duality most fundamental to every human being. To the ones mind, incredlible vastness and how ancient things like stars are surpasses our pure imagination, showing to us like almighty, eternal and majestic. On the other hand, universe looks with sadness with lurking envy, to our freedom to mock with those very laws and to bind creation to PERSONS', not the god's=universal's laws.
All of this where put with story of Turin and his years at Menegroth and Nargothrond (with mayar Meliana, first awaken at the Cuivienen Elwe and Finrod) and Tuor at Gondolin, when he meets and gets aid from Ulmo, a valar. Also, it's Men and elves working together to get back one of Silmarils, as seen with Beren.
I think this speech was too much about valars.
I believe that there are some pagan aspects in these "angelic" creatures, at least from a nordic point of view. They interact, if not constantly, with the Children of Iluvatar and the fact that Aule tried to outrun Iluvatar in the creation of the dwarves, lets not forget Yavanna´s ents, proves that they have at least a "godly" power. When Tolkien described Valinor, my first thought was "that´s Valhalla" because these godly creatures inhabit these region that is incredibly difficult to reach and that it´s viewed later on as a kind of paradise. Take note that each Ainur has a hall of its own in Valinor. This in contrast to the biblical angels which only interact with humans on orders directly from God, does not inahabit any region on the world and doesn´t try to create a new species out of nothing. Also, at the end of the first age, Melkor is defeated in the War of Wrath by the Valar and the armies of Elves and Men. This resembles Raganarok wherever you look at it, without the obvious end of the world, although the land of Beleriand was completely destroyed.
Well if you are a Christian, you will be biased towards the more Christian-inspired parts, whereas the followers of neo Scandinavian/Germanic religions will find their own parallels. After all Tolkien's work is a mixture of all 3 pillars of European civilization:
1. The Barbarian Pagan / Noble Savage of Celtic(Druidic)/Germanic/Norse/Slavic (more spiritual and nature-focused)
2. The Greco-Roman (more philosophical/technological)
3. The Judeo-Christian (more law/morality focused)
If you focus on one, you won't see the other two. Though the video description does say "Since Tolkien was Catholic, we examine possible biblical and theological themes in Silmarillion.", I fear that such a one-sided view might enforce the view that Tolkien was only Christian-inspired.
Very fair point. The problem in part is that I cover Tolkien's non-Christian influences in an earlier video/lecture and then told students we would zero in on Christian themes--not to exclude others but simply for the sake of time. But I can understand how it would come across as if Tolkien merely copied biblical stories in his fiction. Not my intention! :)
If God were all those superlative words, how could one outpace God? Doesn't God know all? Did God not put that heat in Aule's heart in the first place? Nothing surprises or angers God, for He knows and is the creator of all, yes? Very interesting.