Jodorowsky's Dune from 2013 is such a great and engaging documentary. Yeah, I think Jodorowsky's version of Dune would have been way weirder and possibly worse then Lynch's version from 1984, but I think the documentary is great in that we see what ideas he had at the time and the actors he would of had in the film. Fantastic documentary up there with Grizzly Man. Also, congrats on 10,000 subscribers 🎉
Yeah, Jodorowsky is a great example of how the story behind the scenes is way better than the story itself. In my teens I had a sort of infatuation with what could have been had he gotten the reins but looking at it from later on.. I'm glad he didn't. His art is weird and tippy, I guess, but it all feels like I need to enjoy psilocybin a bit too much to properly enjoy it.
my favorite thing to come from that is Jodorowsky's "Meta Barons" comics a truly EPIC / Mythic space opera scifi story. I actually love that story as much as Dune.
Video recommendation - A Canticle for Liebowitz (1959) Written by a bomber radioman who was traumatized by his experience. The book describes 1800 years of history after a nuclear war through the perspective of Catholic monks. A major theme is the tragic nature of power and state formation "Forever building Edens and kicking them apart in berserk fury, because something isn't quite the same." Been devouring your videos. You're clearly a sharp and well read guy. Whether you've read the book or not, would love to hear your take on it. It also has a quasi-complete sequel, published after the author's death. It's... different...
Great book. I have a half-finished outline about Canticle for Liebowitz open on my desktop at this very moment. It's a mess right now, but it's definitely coming.
An interesting aspect you might like FH about where the later Herbert books go, is that in later books and near the end, there is an element of fourth wall breaking, where the characters almost recognize they are trapped by the whims of fate, by an author, and start to develop ways to counter the great power of prophecy that Paul first unlocked ( or one should say the ability to read the book that you star in while the author is writing it in real time.) Thats why later the Dune tarot is created to obfuscate, No-ships also are able to do this, hide from prophecy, The god emperor of dune sees a way out of this, all masqueraded in others ways within the story like saving the human race etc. The final book has the best 4th wall trick that i wont spoil. Honestly all the Dune books are not perfect they have some faults, but the central themes and its exquisite world building is a gigantic inspiration that other sci fi franchises were built on top off. Its curious how none of the adaptations had the guts to show that the Baron was a paedophile, hence why I think Herbert had a small child( not a child at the same time) Alia kill him. Which makes her fate in later books even more SPOILER. Herbert had a lot of fun for sure.
Stilgar clearly states when Jessica bests him in the chasm, that he did not know she knew the weirding way. It was always meant to mean super-human martial arts, not sound guns. Lynch, though a practioner of eastern meditation, likely knew zilch about martial arts or how to shoot them when he made his movie, so he subbed in the sound guns for his movie, rather than to have to shoot 150 simultaneous excellently choreographed knife fights.
For the longest time I've viewed Dune as Herbert intended - a warning of messiah. But recently I've started to look at it as a question - if your life was Paul's (as in you're caught in the gears of fate) would you move forward and seize power? Would that be moral? Inevitable even? I've really found new appreciation for the Dune Universe.
Imo the best part is that Paul is set up in such a way that him continuing to act in what he sees as a moral way (living in service to his people), is what causes him to gain power. He must actively resist the calls of his people to lead them to prevent the Jihad.
I'm impressed with your generally nuanced and intelligent understanding of 20th century political movements. I deeply doubt we have the same ideologies, but even finding an academic in an American liberal arts discipline covering the 20th century who possesses even two brain cells to rub together to keep warm is very rare. Finding someone intelligent and insightful, as you are, is even rarer. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who have realized that, in practice, communism must always steal from the playbook of fascism, otherwise it instantly implodes. I am not saying that it takes everything from fascism. Just enough not to flunk the test (not that fascism can ever get an A, either, but it scrapes by with a C, while communism-in-practice runs at a D minus, the minus being minus-aliveness for the unintentional bodies--fascism's bodies are at least generally deliberate). The CCP, though, somehow managed to completely rediscover fascism under another name in the past roughly 40 years. An impressive feat. A Newton/Leibnitz-level phenomenon!
Congrats on the 10k. Also, yeah, I agree with you about Jodorowsky. There have been many retellings of Dune, but what he wanted to do was anything but Dune.
Goering as the Baron is perfect. My 1st exposure was the Lynch movie in my late teens. Then sought out all the books. The books by his son are a bit schlocky but better than nothing. Would love to see Denis V do the whole series but that's not gonna happen.
I just discovered your content and I just wanted to say that it’s the most genius mix of history and commentary on science fiction that I’ve ever watched. You deserve so many more subscribers and recognition!
As you look through the vast catalog of Sci-Fi to discuss, could you go more into depth with the themes of Babylon 5 over its five seasons? I am rewatching from start to finish (currently on season 4) and I think there are some thematic nuggets in there to discuss that are consistent with what you have covered to date. Good luck on the continued growth, glad to see you past 10k.
There's definitely a lot to dig into with B5. I'll keep cutting away at it now that I have a better sense of what youtube's copyright check will allow. It can be a little sensitive about B5 clips.
I have mixed feelings about that edit. There are some things they did really well, and I'm glad they restored Jessica's "history will call us wives" line at the end. But there other choices, many of them involving the Smithee cut intro material, that did not work for me the way they used it.
I've read all of the Frank Herbert Dune books, but not the posthumous ones written by his son. As far as I'm concerned, that means I've read all the Dune books.
Same, I have checked out his comics, read a bit of the plot lines and, it jus doesnt feel the same. I really wanted Herbert to make his next book, but no...
So I'm sure I will be seen as a heretic. I was 12 when I caught the 1984 movie on TV in 1989 and then 18 when I finally read the 1st book. I have read that book so many times my husband sought out an out of print hardback version back before it was put back in print due to the recent movies. I say all this to say I respect Frank's vision. I read the 2nd book ...but it was difficult. And I never got thru the 3rds 1st chapter. But I have CONSUMED the posthumous ones. All of them. I can't even say which I enjoyed most. The trilogy of events just before Paul's birth? The Jihad? Or those tenous days following the fall of the machine when the Universe of Humanity rises from the ashes. I love it all. I think I was far more interested in the Universe Frank created not in Paul. 😅
@@hdw237 Weird since third one isnt really about Paul anymore and last 3 do a huge time skip. His sons stories are more generic scifi. Usually god emperor is the hardest book for people.
I think it is a new type of the Robin Hood story. Not in the content but in how it is transmitted. Robin Hood is an often retold story that has a life of its own, spanning genres and time. Dune may be the same, with the stories heart staying the same but told over and over into a new context and interpretations.
I've been subscribed for a few weeks but I've joined a handful of channels when they were only starting out. It feels good to engage with them see them grow.
Congratulations on your channels. Richly deserved. I hope it grows more. As a side note, when you mentioned harkkonen homosexuality, it reminded me that Herbert had a fractious relationship with one of his sons who came out as gay in the 70s and was instrumental in forming some gay lib organization who’s name escapes me. I think he might of disowned him but not sure. I know there was a lot of bad blood. Herbert had a complex, messy personal life in general. Not hugely important but I thought kind of interesting.
Two things about Dune I find interesting that loosely ties to the idea of cultural transmission is how it can be interpreted through different lenses. I saw the Lynch film first as a kid, and took it to be a hero's tale. Then I read it, and had to go back and reread it to understand how Herbert meant for it to be a warning against saviors. I know some who have never read the book in my age group that think it's a hero tale even now. So that's always been interesting. Within that same framework I have always wondered has anyone ever addressed how the Kwisatz Haderach and the Lissan al-Ghaib are actually different ideas through the books? I find again folks that have not read the books think they are synonymous ideas in the story, not understanding how one is actually culturally manipulative. It's interesting what individuals take away depending upon what they engage with the material. Thank you.
The Dune Saga is extremely hard to put to film... Because it's a Sci-Fi story with Social, Environmental, and deep Philosophical themes. You almost have to take a collage of the 1984 film (Smithee Cut), the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series, and the current Dune movies to get an actual view of that universe. As each, in their own right, get a part of the book right but then go off tangentially into other places. As others have said, congrats on 10k subscribers. Plus love the background scenery; as I've always wanted to live in one of the Big Sky states.
I think we should find a different word other than "Feudalism" when we are talking about these Sci-Fi Industrial Aristocratic systems of government. They are heavily inspired by the Victorian Era, especially the British and the German Empire. With Germany, we have the Kaiser on top, even above Parliament, and with the role of appointing the Prime Minister. And where the Army and the Navy are entirely separate entities that have nothing to do with each other, while the Kaiser is in total control of both. And then, the whole of Germany was filled with princelings all over the place. And still having powerful semi-autonomous Kings, such as the Kingdom of Bavaria. Which had its own army and its own everything. Bavaria really shouldn't even have joined Germany. They had far more in common with the Austrian Empire, both with the Danube and also in Religion. Yet the Bavarian King made up his mind and submitted himself to Wilhelm I. But while this is going on, you also have enormous industrial corporations, working tightly together with local governments for coordination and development. Fun fact, the pan-German railroad network was already being built before the German Empire unified. This is not Feudalism. We need another term. Another name. "Techno-Feudalism" sounds like a music genre. And still carries the problem of having nothing to do with Feudal contracts. "Aristo-Industrialism"? "Neo-Kaiserism"? Probably too exotic. And when Germany formed as the German Empire with a very powerful Emperor on top, it was the most educated major country on the planet. Having implemented universal education generations before the British did the same. And Germany was the first modern welfare state. All under the Kaiser. While having a prince, Otto von Bismarck as the Kaiser's Prime Minister. And having the whole full and proper pomp and splendor of royal courts brought to the modern industrial are. Not Feudalism. "Industrial Monarchism?" In other places around Europe. Sweden had a system of unpaid farm labor all the way until 1945. Which was a major part of the Swedish population. And for Great Britain. Although the monarch did not have much power, the Aristocratic system still lingered. Where titles would be given to great men. And where the traditions of the royal splendor still endured. And even though the King / Emperor of Britain did not have any real power, the system was still run by the Aristocratic families who had transitioned from land ownership to becoming industrialists. Admiral of the Fleet Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma. Or normally just called Lord Mountbatten. He was the uncle of Prince Philip, the husband of Elizabeth II. He joined the navy in WW1, and became Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia Command, in WW2. And he ruled India for a while after the war. Fun fact: He was supposed to have married Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna, the daughter of Tsar Nicholas II. But then the Revolution happened. And Winston Churchill too, he was also essentially a Prince. And he was appointed by his Party and by the King to lead the Coalition Government during WW2. He was not elected. He was appointed by a couple elites in the Party and the King. So, once more, a Churchill would have total command of the British Military, just like his ancestor John Churchill, who led the Confederacy of England, Holland, and Prussia, against France. Even when you look at the United States during the Victorian Era. In the North, there was the Industrial Aristocratic Elites, with their banks and their factories. While in the South there was the Manorial Elite, with their plantations and distrust of central authority. Throw some Sci-Fi flair on it, and you got a Dune thing going on. Still, it is not Feudalism. Using Feudalism when describing Dune and Monarchy of the 1800s-1900s, would be like calling the United States of today Jeffersonian. Or a Jeffersonian Democracy. Or a Jeffersonian Agrarian State. Or turn it, and call America a New England Calvinist Republic. The term has become a charged one. The moment one uses it, people get the images of dirty and abused peasants with some monopolyman aristocrat throwing filth at them for fun and games. The moment it is used, it deceives. It's like calling someone or something "Puritan". It carries the derogatory meaning with it. Something something power of words.
My short answer is "you're right" and at present I don't know what the right terminology would be yet. Maybe these excursions into crudely named "space feudalism" are part of the road to better taxonomy for what we see in science fiction and perhaps what we're just starting to see in the world around us. My long answer will have to wait, dependent on whether or not flights are back on schedule after yesterday's Crowdstrike debacle.
I particularly like this video. It properly conveys the message of Dune, that we all want a Hero to come and save us, but the Hero isn't always doing things for altruistic purposes. That, and that we still live in feudalism.
I've read the original book, saw the Lynch movie in the theater and a few times since (original and Alan Smithee cuts), and I saw the first of the recent two movies (can't seem to work up enough interest to see the rest). Tried the miniseries but found it disappointing for some reason I don't recall. I wouldn't say I actually like Dune very much, but it is interesting. I always remember Mark Frost, several years ago in an interview, said that what is often misunderstood about Lynch is that people think he's subversive but that he's really the opposite. He doesn't intend to undermine things small town life in Blue Velvet or Twin's Peak, but he actually loves those places and likes to vilify forces that threaten them, which is why his villains are so hilariously grotesque, like Dick Tracy villains. Might also explain how he's able to seem so earnest and sentimental in stuff like The Elephant Man or The Straight Story.
I honestly love the book, but I can't bring myself to watch the second installment of the Villenueve film. I didn't hate it, so much as just... meh! Once I get past the spectacle of Villenueve's admittedly excellent cinematography, I'm forced to accept the realisation that there's a 70-90 minutes worth of movie, stretched out over 3 bloody hours. There's nothing in it that I couldn't appreciate to almost equal degree by reading a coffee-table book. And I thought I was a subdued fan of Villenueve's work; I even liked his Blade Runner sequel...
Dune is indeed more even that modern myth - it truly has entrenched and integrated itself within our collective cultural lexicon at a very fundamental level, and it has done so in its broader manifestation, with the original books and each of the live action adaptations all having their own freight of influence on our culture and their own particular fans and adherents. While it is true that Dune's cultural influence is not entirely unparalleled (a case could be made that Asimov's Foundation series is comparably significant), it is still clearly the case that, without Dune, the modern pop culture (and particularly sci fi) landscape would be unrecognisable. Without Dune there would be no Star Wars, no Babylon 5, no Warhammer 40,000, no Wheel of Time (or at least in each case the version of those franchises that would exist without Dune would be radically different) - the list goes on. An argument can be made that Herbert has been as influential on the development of sci fi as a genre as Tolkien was on the fantasy genre, and it goes beyond styles and trends in fiction writing. What might be called the greater Dune story - books and all live action versions taken together - has influenced the ideological framework of a great many of its readers and viewers very significantly, most obviously with regard to its core themes of the interaction between ecology and culture and the perils inherent in charismatic leadership and so the caution one should always feel when approaching anyone viewed as a 'hero', especially in the arena of politics and power.
The line I remember best from the novel is the Baron Harkonnen to his mentat: "One day, Piter...I will have you strangled." This probably says something about me.
Great video as always. I am reading through my library again. early Heinlein for the moment then Herbert's Dune books to follow. Great. I did enjoy the House... trilogy prequels but I don't know what happened with the Butlerian Jihad. I found that book entirely unreadable and didn't bother with the other two.
I got into audiobooks during lockdown. I've done the first Dune, House Atredies and the first of the Bulterian Jihand books. I found the Atredies book boring. The Bulterian one was actually okay, but Brian doesn't have the style of his father.
Hunt down the Dune Encyclopedia, it can be found online. Its proper Dune. Brian of course had to renounce it to make his money-grab books. If his ideas came from James's notes (cough) then they weren't as good.
My first introduction to Dune was the Lynch one. Although I am a much bigger sci-fi fan than my older brother, I have him to thank for giving me access to some great movies from a young age. I think all the screen versions have great elements to them but the '84 version is still my favourite. It might seem silly but one of the elements I like are the worms. Because they were puppeteered I think they had personality. It haven't read much since my early 20's but recently started listening to audiobooks. I've done the first Dune, and two of the Brian Herbert prequels. Because I'm a bit of a lore whore I've looked up more than what I've read or watched. (Spoilers) There are some great elements but what I dislike about it is that each house or organisation is homogenised or compartmentalised in terms of culture or function. I also don't like that Spice is such a McGuffin, it literally does everything. It allows for space travel, it elongates life, it's a narcotic, and literally a spice for food. The Bene Gesserit have been breeding only daughters for generations but are totally obsessed with a perfect male child, I've never been a fan of prophecy unless it is actual time travel. It's like we've lied about this prophecy to pacify the natives, oh wait, the prophecy is actually true. Egg on my face. Dune probably fits more into the science fantasy bracket than science fiction. People keep giving me trouble for calling Star Wars Sci-fi.
I'm new to the channel but I absolutely love it! Suggestion for next video. Isaac asimovs the foundation. Unless you've already done a video and I just haven't found it in your archives yet.
Found your channel recently and loving the content. Have you seen the Spice Driver edit of the Lynch film? It makes use of pretty much all the available footage and its reedited ending which puts it more in line with the book. It used to be on TH-cam, but now you'll need to find it on the high seas. Highly recommend. The spice must flow...
Another great video. Interesting observation about the power of words. Have you seen Wim Wenders' film 'Until the End of the World'? It makes a similar observation about images.
I assume the title of the final chapter of your video, "Dune Abides", is a subtle reference to the classic sci-fi novel "Earth Abides". If so, nicely done.
Suggestion for another Dune video: The Islamic elements of all three screen adaptations. After all, what’s most surprising is that the pre 9/11 miniseries depicts the Fremem most like an IRL Muslim country. You can even hear the call to prayer in some of the miniseries city scenes. 2022 Dune is by contrast really careful to take on some of the aesthetic trappings of Islam while dancing around calling them Zensunni space Muslims. It’s a film that is really afraid of being Islamophoblic, Islamophilic or saying anything about Islam or the War in Afghanistan that had been officially lost just a year before.
I've never understood why someone, Jodorowski for example, would want to make a Dune movie that had almost nothing to do with Dune. Others have done this with various IP's as well. If you don't really want to make a Dune movie (or whatever IP), then why buy the rights and say you're making one?
There are three obvious options, and lots of less obvious ones. 1) The creator of the new thing fundamentally doesn't understand the existing work. 2) They don't care about the work they're using, but as long as using the name gets them attention it has done its job. 3) They actually hate the original thing, and they want $OFFICIAL_NEW_THING to neuter the original's influence. And, of course, mixing and matching happens. Note also that it can be difficult to tell the difference between the first and third options, and both of those options gain the benefits of option two for finding funding and an audience.
I think hitchhikers guide to the galaxy can be viewed the same way. A story retold over a variety of medium’s with slight changes to suit those mediums.
Part of me wants to read the Dune books, but my first experience of Dune was the most recent movies. Im both worried A. I'll spoil myself for future films and B. I'm worried the book will be so vastly different it'll change my mental perception of Dune in general.
The Dune novels, at least the first three, offer a unique experience in literature. Rereading them provides a unique experience. When one rereads them, they can experience them from Paul's perspective. One has some general recollection of the events, but doesn't recall 100% of the details. That's essentially what Paul's prescience provided him. When I first read Dune Messiah, I thought it was one of the worst books based on how Paul behaved. On the second time through I recognized that he was avoiding the choices his son made in Children of Dune. Changed my perspective on the book completely.
Dunno if you will see this. Is that the extended version or the tv version? Where is the best place to see your version? I really like the movie from 1984 a lot of people shit on it but i love it. Dont really liek the new one to be hoenst.
Despite its flaws, I like the '84 version too. The much-despised extended cut specifically. I'm not sure what you mean by "your version" but I ended up downloading bootlegs of the '84 and 2000 versions because I have no idea where my DVD's are anymore.
@@feralhistorian Oh cool so its like the extended cut is the one you like? Well yeah the cut you liked is what i meant sorry. Yeah i mean i know that the psionic weapons are not in the books but i still like it a lot. I dont like the new one really. he looks liek a pussy to me. You ever read the prequels by his son? Really good stuff in my opinion. Leaning about the butlerian jihad and where the navigators came from and whom was the first of them.
Jodorowsky may have had a different vision on the theme of Dune - a generation of messiahs as opposed to just one - but I would give my left arm just to be able to see it made. Obviously I can say that with a fair idea of retaining all my limbs for the foreseeable future but, having seen and read of his concepts for the movie, it surely would have been magnificent for good or bad reasons. We will never know.
Congrats to 10k subscribers. Also, I would like to say that I hated how Villeneuve portrays the Harkonnen in his movies. They're the ''bad guys'', so he turned them into a Wish version of the Cenobites that live in BDSM dungeons and to hammer it down to the "dumb mainstream audience", he even turned their planet in black & white. In the book, they're portrayed as uber-decadent, predatory capitalists. They do monstrous things but in the end of the day, they're still human and I think, that makes them more scary than being portrayed as genetic freaks. Generally speaking, I dislike the Villeneuve adaptation for their boring, brutalist art style & dumping down many of the concepts from the books.
Although Dune has homophobia in it, the Baron's degeneracy is due to him prefering teen boys not just being attracted to males, and he is also implied to have abused his nephew.
@@feralhistorianThe Harkonnens are so depraved in every way, it's easy to miss one of the many specifically horrifying details about them. But thanks for owning the omission. Great video, congratulations on the numbers, and I am pleased to be one of your subscribers. This is my new favorite take on Dune.
I often wonder if someone pointing that out to Herbert is why a certain spoiler someone got smacked around in God Emperor of Dune for being weirded out by gay folk.
"...Look at what they accomplished with no weapons and just 11 guys who didn’t even speak English! And that proves that sometimes great ideas are actually horrible ideas" -Samhad Hyd-uin
I might be a heretical abomination but I think I prefer the 2000 SciFi Channel’s version. While the DV version is grittier and closer to my imagined visuals of the story, the SciFi version is much closer to the original book. I still can’t wrap my head around how DV changed Chani’s story so radically.
Dune 2000 is the definitive adaptation, the complaints against it are imo strengths, It comes off like a stage performance to me where what matters is the story not the spectacle
@@David-cw7pd Exactly. Just reread the first three books, btw. Might cue up the SciFi versions of Dune and Children of Dune, both of which I own on DVD as you can't find them streaming anywhere.
@@theraven6836 both are on youtube, periodically until they get yanked, before the new ones youtube didnt care though so WB must be pulling them as they find them
ive read all the books, but only after lynch dune and sci-fi miniseries. each iteration has its strengths and weaknesses, but together i think it gives you a better idea of the story. someday people are going to feed all of it into an ai and tell it to take the best stuff out of all of it and turn it into a stand alone movie. this will be followed by a machine crushing riot at the data center.
Honestly, i think they shouldve emphasized harkonnens homosexuality. The universal empire in dune is culturally islamic, more specifically turkish and iranian inspired, so unless they deliberately endorsed some very unpopular afghan traditions they would probably criminalize it or at least make it a severe taboo. Trying to extrapolate modern and uniquely western cultural quirks like legal homosexuality into a setting nearly 30 millennia in the future is ridiculous.
My niche complaint: WTF is up with those stubby, katana looking things? The way the fights are described in the novel makes it fairly clear they use rapiers.
@@feralhistorian My favorite Dune book is God Emperor. I kind of like the idea that Leto's entire goal is to be so draconian and fascist that the very DNA of humans will never forget the experience. And that his 'golden path' is merely the plodding continuation of human existence. Though when you compare alternative is extinction by machines, maybe plodding is OK after all. I don't believe I've read everything by Herbert, but I think I've covered most. My individual favorite is The White Plague, particularly since I, as a biochemist, know how close we are to living such a reality.
people keep saying that dune subverts the hero's journey or that it's a warning against the notion of heroes or people with power but imo, it just makes a show of doing that without actually doing that. paul IS a hero. the hero that brings about the god emperor that legitimately leads humanity onto "the golden path"... the only path to humanity's survival. that - the narrative of the golden path - is NEVER challenged or questioned. paul may not be the messiah but he's john the baptist. and his son really is the messiah. and the story kind of makes a perverse hash out of its morality by dramatizing what is essentially the machiavellian notion that in order to make a golden path cake, you gotta crack some genocidal eggs. the story is about a hero who, in order to save humanity, has to slaughter entire planetfuls of peoples. it is COMPLETELY about the ends justifying the means. the heroes and messiahs pay a price. but the necessity of their deeds is never in question. some warning!
There's definitely some narrative shift as Herbert wrote the sequels. Dune on its own as a stand-alone work does hit differently than Dune in context of what was written later.
Actually it keeps the same exact theme of beware heroes, The God Emperor of Dune is even more of a monster, and like many monsters very compelling. The sacrificial system is in place because humanity cannot escape from the rigidity of prophecy, People like Duncan and Miles are always the real heroes and moral. As I say in a comment above, there is a curious element of 4th wall breaking in Dune. And in order to "escape" from the rules of the author not only the golden path is created, many other pieces fall into place. And who survives? Well Duncan rides off the story in a No-ship, a ship specifically made so that people with prophetic powers cant see them, and so rides off from the grasp of Herbert and we the reader.
Barron Harkonnen wasn't a homosexual, he was a pedophile. He wasn't attracted to men, he wanted boys. Case in point where he chastises Piter for his desire for Lady Jessica by pointing out he gave up Paul. After Duke Leto does the poison tooth bit he even calls for "the boy who so resembled young Paul" to be sent to his private chambers, "drugged, I'm in no mood for a struggle". Personally, I think that's a very important distinction, particularly in our modern day and age.
ah, Dune, where the good guys wear black and the bad guys wear black, and the indigenous wear black, the future where everyone wears a gimp suit but no one is happy. The future where people with blue eyes are special, better, perhaps uber? Dune, where people stare intently at each other and where the best character is a foetus. Dune stole my money and made me acutely aware of how much uncomfortable time went by, a film with zero immersion. Such a shame a bloviating outdated old book has such valuable IP. So many better modern stories to tell.
I don’t think that’s true, and I don’t think Feral’s point was correct. The new baron harkonnen is designed for spectacle and memorability, and the nazi aesthetic is simply overused
@@zombieshoot4318considering that Geidi Prime’s description in the later books is a thinly veiled criticism of US office culture that arose in the ‘70s and ‘80s… yeah
Hermann Göring as Baron harkonnen is actually fitting
And Baron Harkonnen as Hermann Goring would work as well…
Normally I'd say this channel is underrated, but I don't think it could ever be as good as it is if it had millions of views.
If it ever gets that big, I'll be doing the same thing but in 4K with better sound.
I respect how you specified the exact number of subscribers, makes it feel like each one of us genuinely matters.
Jodorowsky's Dune from 2013 is such a great and engaging documentary. Yeah, I think Jodorowsky's version of Dune would have been way weirder and possibly worse then Lynch's version from 1984, but I think the documentary is great in that we see what ideas he had at the time and the actors he would of had in the film. Fantastic documentary up there with Grizzly Man. Also, congrats on 10,000 subscribers 🎉
Yeah, Jodorowsky is a great example of how the story behind the scenes is way better than the story itself. In my teens I had a sort of infatuation with what could have been had he gotten the reins but looking at it from later on.. I'm glad he didn't. His art is weird and tippy, I guess, but it all feels like I need to enjoy psilocybin a bit too much to properly enjoy it.
And he's made a decent living by crying out every so often about how he could've done it better haha
my favorite thing to come from that is Jodorowsky's "Meta Barons" comics a truly EPIC / Mythic space opera scifi story. I actually love that story as much as Dune.
@@gawkthimm6030I just wanted to bring up Metabarons. It's fascinating to read as a Dune fan as it feels like a mirror universe reflection of Dune
Jodorowsky described his creative process being like "r*ping your wife". Hard pass on his work.
Video recommendation - A Canticle for Liebowitz (1959)
Written by a bomber radioman who was traumatized by his experience. The book describes 1800 years of history after a nuclear war through the perspective of Catholic monks. A major theme is the tragic nature of power and state formation "Forever building Edens and kicking them apart in berserk fury, because something isn't quite the same."
Been devouring your videos. You're clearly a sharp and well read guy. Whether you've read the book or not, would love to hear your take on it.
It also has a quasi-complete sequel, published after the author's death. It's... different...
Great book. I have a half-finished outline about Canticle for Liebowitz open on my desktop at this very moment. It's a mess right now, but it's definitely coming.
Thrilled to hear it 🙂
An interesting aspect you might like FH about where the later Herbert books go, is that in later books and near the end, there is an element of fourth wall breaking, where the characters almost recognize they are trapped by the whims of fate, by an author, and start to develop ways to counter the great power of prophecy that Paul first unlocked ( or one should say the ability to read the book that you star in while the author is writing it in real time.) Thats why later the Dune tarot is created to obfuscate, No-ships also are able to do this, hide from prophecy, The god emperor of dune sees a way out of this, all masqueraded in others ways within the story like saving the human race etc. The final book has the best 4th wall trick that i wont spoil. Honestly all the Dune books are not perfect they have some faults, but the central themes and its exquisite world building is a gigantic inspiration that other sci fi franchises were built on top off. Its curious how none of the adaptations had the guts to show that the Baron was a paedophile, hence why I think Herbert had a small child( not a child at the same time) Alia kill him. Which makes her fate in later books even more SPOILER. Herbert had a lot of fun for sure.
Stilgar clearly states when Jessica bests him in the chasm, that he did not know she knew the weirding way. It was always meant to mean super-human martial arts, not sound guns. Lynch, though a practioner of eastern meditation, likely knew zilch about martial arts or how to shoot them when he made his movie, so he subbed in the sound guns for his movie, rather than to have to shoot 150 simultaneous excellently choreographed knife fights.
For the longest time I've viewed Dune as Herbert intended - a warning of messiah. But recently I've started to look at it as a question - if your life was Paul's (as in you're caught in the gears of fate) would you move forward and seize power? Would that be moral? Inevitable even? I've really found new appreciation for the Dune Universe.
Imo the best part is that Paul is set up in such a way that him continuing to act in what he sees as a moral way (living in service to his people), is what causes him to gain power. He must actively resist the calls of his people to lead them to prevent the Jihad.
A great look at cultural transmission. I still prefer John Harrison's Dune miniseries from 200. Also, congratulations on 10,000+ subscribers.
I’m always amazed at the insights given in your videos.
Criminally underrated channel.
I'm impressed with your generally nuanced and intelligent understanding of 20th century political movements. I deeply doubt we have the same ideologies, but even finding an academic in an American liberal arts discipline covering the 20th century who possesses even two brain cells to rub together to keep warm is very rare. Finding someone intelligent and insightful, as you are, is even rarer.
I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who have realized that, in practice, communism must always steal from the playbook of fascism, otherwise it instantly implodes. I am not saying that it takes everything from fascism. Just enough not to flunk the test (not that fascism can ever get an A, either, but it scrapes by with a C, while communism-in-practice runs at a D minus, the minus being minus-aliveness for the unintentional bodies--fascism's bodies are at least generally deliberate). The CCP, though, somehow managed to completely rediscover fascism under another name in the past roughly 40 years. An impressive feat. A Newton/Leibnitz-level phenomenon!
Congrats on the 10k. Also, yeah, I agree with you about Jodorowsky. There have been many retellings of Dune, but what he wanted to do was anything but Dune.
Just discovered your channel and been watching all your videos like crazy .... convinced you are the best one doing it right now 👊🏻
Thank you.
I thought I was the only one who pictured ze Baron as a levitating Göring.
Congrats on the 10,191 man!
Congrats from the UK on 10 K subscribers. Thoroughly deserved and a really excellent channel
Goering as the Baron is perfect. My 1st exposure was the Lynch movie in my late teens. Then sought out all the books. The books by his son are a bit schlocky but better than nothing. Would love to see Denis V do the whole series but that's not gonna happen.
I just discovered your content and I just wanted to say that it’s the most genius mix of history and commentary on science fiction that I’ve ever watched. You deserve so many more subscribers and recognition!
As you look through the vast catalog of Sci-Fi to discuss, could you go more into depth with the themes of Babylon 5 over its five seasons? I am rewatching from start to finish (currently on season 4) and I think there are some thematic nuggets in there to discuss that are consistent with what you have covered to date. Good luck on the continued growth, glad to see you past 10k.
There's definitely a lot to dig into with B5. I'll keep cutting away at it now that I have a better sense of what youtube's copyright check will allow. It can be a little sensitive about B5 clips.
Congrats on the 10K, man!
You deserve it for your original, brilliant content. Onward to 100K!
I say this as a fan of Jodorowsky's literary (but not cinematic) work: I'm glad he never got to make whatever it was he intended to make of Dune.
dune took on a life of its own with nobody truly controlling it. just like Paul's conquest of the know universe.
Kanly. Kanly never changes.
For Dune 1984, you should take a look at the Spicediver fanedit. By far THE definitive cut.
I have mixed feelings about that edit. There are some things they did really well, and I'm glad they restored Jessica's "history will call us wives" line at the end. But there other choices, many of them involving the Smithee cut intro material, that did not work for me the way they used it.
I've read all of the Frank Herbert Dune books, but not the posthumous ones written by his son.
As far as I'm concerned, that means I've read all the Dune books.
His son writes solid pulp. Not bad but not his father. The nice touch is that he does not seem to be trying to be his father.
Same, I have checked out his comics, read a bit of the plot lines and, it jus doesnt feel the same. I really wanted Herbert to make his next book, but no...
So I'm sure I will be seen as a heretic. I was 12 when I caught the 1984 movie on TV in 1989 and then 18 when I finally read the 1st book. I have read that book so many times my husband sought out an out of print hardback version back before it was put back in print due to the recent movies. I say all this to say I respect Frank's vision. I read the 2nd book ...but it was difficult. And I never got thru the 3rds 1st chapter.
But I have CONSUMED the posthumous ones. All of them. I can't even say which I enjoyed most. The trilogy of events just before Paul's birth? The Jihad? Or those tenous days following the fall of the machine when the Universe of Humanity rises from the ashes. I love it all. I think I was far more interested in the Universe Frank created not in Paul. 😅
@@hdw237 Weird since third one isnt really about Paul anymore and last 3 do a huge time skip. His sons stories are more generic scifi. Usually god emperor is the hardest book for people.
I think it is a new type of the Robin Hood story. Not in the content but in how it is transmitted. Robin Hood is an often retold story that has a life of its own, spanning genres and time. Dune may be the same, with the stories heart staying the same but told over and over into a new context and interpretations.
Same with King Arthur a very valid point:)
I’ve been subscribed since 300. So happy to see my favorite historian reach this milestone
I've been subscribed for a few weeks but I've joined a handful of channels when they were only starting out. It feels good to engage with them see them grow.
@@jamesabernethy7896 Especially when it's such quality videos
Congratulations on your channels. Richly deserved. I hope it grows more.
As a side note, when you mentioned harkkonen homosexuality, it reminded me that Herbert had a fractious relationship with one of his sons who came out as gay in the 70s and was instrumental in forming some gay lib organization who’s name escapes me.
I think he might of disowned him but not sure. I know there was a lot of bad blood.
Herbert had a complex, messy personal life in general. Not hugely important but I thought kind of interesting.
Kudos on the 10k subs will you do a Q/A live stream?
Two things about Dune I find interesting that loosely ties to the idea of cultural transmission is how it can be interpreted through different lenses. I saw the Lynch film first as a kid, and took it to be a hero's tale. Then I read it, and had to go back and reread it to understand how Herbert meant for it to be a warning against saviors. I know some who have never read the book in my age group that think it's a hero tale even now. So that's always been interesting. Within that same framework I have always wondered has anyone ever addressed how the Kwisatz Haderach and the Lissan al-Ghaib are actually different ideas through the books? I find again folks that have not read the books think they are synonymous ideas in the story, not understanding how one is actually culturally manipulative. It's interesting what individuals take away depending upon what they engage with the material. Thank you.
07:42 "Now it's evident to anyone paying attention that, there's Harkonnen everywhere."
A quote to be remembered.
The Dune Saga is extremely hard to put to film... Because it's a Sci-Fi story with Social, Environmental, and deep Philosophical themes.
You almost have to take a collage of the 1984 film (Smithee Cut), the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series, and the current Dune movies to get an actual view of that universe.
As each, in their own right, get a part of the book right but then go off tangentially into other places.
As others have said, congrats on 10k subscribers. Plus love the background scenery; as I've always wanted to live in one of the Big Sky states.
10 years ago the idea that Dune would outlive Star Wars would have seemed quite odd.
I think we should find a different word other than "Feudalism" when we are talking about these Sci-Fi Industrial Aristocratic systems of government.
They are heavily inspired by the Victorian Era, especially the British and the German Empire.
With Germany, we have the Kaiser on top, even above Parliament, and with the role of appointing the Prime Minister.
And where the Army and the Navy are entirely separate entities that have nothing to do with each other, while the Kaiser is in total control of both.
And then, the whole of Germany was filled with princelings all over the place. And still having powerful semi-autonomous Kings, such as the Kingdom of Bavaria. Which had its own army and its own everything.
Bavaria really shouldn't even have joined Germany. They had far more in common with the Austrian Empire, both with the Danube and also in Religion.
Yet the Bavarian King made up his mind and submitted himself to Wilhelm I.
But while this is going on, you also have enormous industrial corporations, working tightly together with local governments for coordination and development.
Fun fact, the pan-German railroad network was already being built before the German Empire unified.
This is not Feudalism. We need another term. Another name.
"Techno-Feudalism" sounds like a music genre. And still carries the problem of having nothing to do with Feudal contracts.
"Aristo-Industrialism"? "Neo-Kaiserism"?
Probably too exotic.
And when Germany formed as the German Empire with a very powerful Emperor on top, it was the most educated major country on the planet. Having implemented universal education generations before the British did the same. And Germany was the first modern welfare state.
All under the Kaiser.
While having a prince, Otto von Bismarck as the Kaiser's Prime Minister.
And having the whole full and proper pomp and splendor of royal courts brought to the modern industrial are.
Not Feudalism.
"Industrial Monarchism?"
In other places around Europe.
Sweden had a system of unpaid farm labor all the way until 1945. Which was a major part of the Swedish population.
And for Great Britain. Although the monarch did not have much power, the Aristocratic system still lingered. Where titles would be given to great men. And where the traditions of the royal splendor still endured.
And even though the King / Emperor of Britain did not have any real power, the system was still run by the Aristocratic families who had transitioned from land ownership to becoming industrialists.
Admiral of the Fleet Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma.
Or normally just called Lord Mountbatten.
He was the uncle of Prince Philip, the husband of Elizabeth II.
He joined the navy in WW1, and became Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia Command, in WW2.
And he ruled India for a while after the war.
Fun fact: He was supposed to have married Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna, the daughter of Tsar Nicholas II. But then the Revolution happened.
And Winston Churchill too, he was also essentially a Prince. And he was appointed by his Party and by the King to lead the Coalition Government during WW2. He was not elected. He was appointed by a couple elites in the Party and the King.
So, once more, a Churchill would have total command of the British Military, just like his ancestor John Churchill, who led the Confederacy of England, Holland, and Prussia, against France.
Even when you look at the United States during the Victorian Era. In the North, there was the Industrial Aristocratic Elites, with their banks and their factories. While in the South there was the Manorial Elite, with their plantations and distrust of central authority.
Throw some Sci-Fi flair on it, and you got a Dune thing going on.
Still, it is not Feudalism.
Using Feudalism when describing Dune and Monarchy of the 1800s-1900s, would be like calling the United States of today Jeffersonian. Or a Jeffersonian Democracy. Or a Jeffersonian Agrarian State.
Or turn it, and call America a New England Calvinist Republic.
The term has become a charged one. The moment one uses it, people get the images of dirty and abused peasants with some monopolyman aristocrat throwing filth at them for fun and games.
The moment it is used, it deceives.
It's like calling someone or something "Puritan". It carries the derogatory meaning with it.
Something something power of words.
My short answer is "you're right" and at present I don't know what the right terminology would be yet. Maybe these excursions into crudely named "space feudalism" are part of the road to better taxonomy for what we see in science fiction and perhaps what we're just starting to see in the world around us.
My long answer will have to wait, dependent on whether or not flights are back on schedule after yesterday's Crowdstrike debacle.
I particularly like this video. It properly conveys the message of Dune, that we all want a Hero to come and save us, but the Hero isn't always doing things for altruistic purposes. That, and that we still live in feudalism.
Words are weapons sharper than knives _INXS
And now it's in my head . . .
I've read the original book, saw the Lynch movie in the theater and a few times since (original and Alan Smithee cuts), and I saw the first of the recent two movies (can't seem to work up enough interest to see the rest). Tried the miniseries but found it disappointing for some reason I don't recall. I wouldn't say I actually like Dune very much, but it is interesting.
I always remember Mark Frost, several years ago in an interview, said that what is often misunderstood about Lynch is that people think he's subversive but that he's really the opposite. He doesn't intend to undermine things small town life in Blue Velvet or Twin's Peak, but he actually loves those places and likes to vilify forces that threaten them, which is why his villains are so hilariously grotesque, like Dick Tracy villains. Might also explain how he's able to seem so earnest and sentimental in stuff like The Elephant Man or The Straight Story.
I honestly love the book, but I can't bring myself to watch the second installment of the Villenueve film. I didn't hate it, so much as just... meh! Once I get past the spectacle of Villenueve's admittedly excellent cinematography, I'm forced to accept the realisation that there's a 70-90 minutes worth of movie, stretched out over 3 bloody hours. There's nothing in it that I couldn't appreciate to almost equal degree by reading a coffee-table book. And I thought I was a subdued fan of Villenueve's work; I even liked his Blade Runner sequel...
Dune is indeed more even that modern myth - it truly has entrenched and integrated itself within our collective cultural lexicon at a very fundamental level, and it has done so in its broader manifestation, with the original books and each of the live action adaptations all having their own freight of influence on our culture and their own particular fans and adherents. While it is true that Dune's cultural influence is not entirely unparalleled (a case could be made that Asimov's Foundation series is comparably significant), it is still clearly the case that, without Dune, the modern pop culture (and particularly sci fi) landscape would be unrecognisable. Without Dune there would be no Star Wars, no Babylon 5, no Warhammer 40,000, no Wheel of Time (or at least in each case the version of those franchises that would exist without Dune would be radically different) - the list goes on. An argument can be made that Herbert has been as influential on the development of sci fi as a genre as Tolkien was on the fantasy genre, and it goes beyond styles and trends in fiction writing. What might be called the greater Dune story - books and all live action versions taken together - has influenced the ideological framework of a great many of its readers and viewers very significantly, most obviously with regard to its core themes of the interaction between ecology and culture and the perils inherent in charismatic leadership and so the caution one should always feel when approaching anyone viewed as a 'hero', especially in the arena of politics and power.
The line I remember best from the novel is the Baron Harkonnen to his mentat: "One day, Piter...I will have you strangled."
This probably says something about me.
Great video as always. I am reading through my library again. early Heinlein for the moment then Herbert's Dune books to follow. Great. I did enjoy the House... trilogy prequels but I don't know what happened with the Butlerian Jihad. I found that book entirely unreadable and didn't bother with the other two.
I couldn't read the Brian Herbert collaborations either.
Dune ends with Chapter House, unfortunately.
I got into audiobooks during lockdown. I've done the first Dune, House Atredies and the first of the Bulterian Jihand books. I found the Atredies book boring. The Bulterian one was actually okay, but Brian doesn't have the style of his father.
Hunt down the Dune Encyclopedia, it can be found online. Its proper Dune.
Brian of course had to renounce it to make his money-grab books. If his ideas came from James's notes (cough) then they weren't as good.
My first introduction to Dune was the Lynch one. Although I am a much bigger sci-fi fan than my older brother, I have him to thank for giving me access to some great movies from a young age. I think all the screen versions have great elements to them but the '84 version is still my favourite. It might seem silly but one of the elements I like are the worms. Because they were puppeteered I think they had personality.
It haven't read much since my early 20's but recently started listening to audiobooks. I've done the first Dune, and two of the Brian Herbert prequels. Because I'm a bit of a lore whore I've looked up more than what I've read or watched.
(Spoilers) There are some great elements but what I dislike about it is that each house or organisation is homogenised or compartmentalised in terms of culture or function. I also don't like that Spice is such a McGuffin, it literally does everything. It allows for space travel, it elongates life, it's a narcotic, and literally a spice for food. The Bene Gesserit have been breeding only daughters for generations but are totally obsessed with a perfect male child, I've never been a fan of prophecy unless it is actual time travel. It's like we've lied about this prophecy to pacify the natives, oh wait, the prophecy is actually true. Egg on my face. Dune probably fits more into the science fantasy bracket than science fiction. People keep giving me trouble for calling Star Wars Sci-fi.
Congratulations! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Dang! Congrats on 10k subscribers!
I'm new to the channel but I absolutely love it!
Suggestion for next video. Isaac asimovs the foundation. Unless you've already done a video and I just haven't found it in your archives yet.
Congrats on the subscriber numbers.
Nice cephlapod t shirt btw...
Found your channel recently and loving the content.
Have you seen the Spice Driver edit of the Lynch film? It makes use of pretty much all the available footage and its reedited ending which puts it more in line with the book. It used to be on TH-cam, but now you'll need to find it on the high seas. Highly recommend.
The spice must flow...
Your videos are so good man
Sincerest congratulations. Discovered you a few weeks ago. Keep it up.
I'm reasonably new too. It really is a great channel, he's original and has a great gift for storytelling.
I am far to your left politically, but I genuinely appreciate your videos. They actually challenge my perspective and give me new ones.
Still going to vote anyway.
Another great video. Interesting observation about the power of words. Have you seen Wim Wenders' film 'Until the End of the World'? It makes a similar observation about images.
I read Dune after seeing the Lynch movie. I like both and I think Lynch did a pretty faithful interpretation.
Thanks for you effort
I assume the title of the final chapter of your video, "Dune Abides", is a subtle reference to the classic sci-fi novel "Earth Abides". If so, nicely done.
I'm gonna come back around to Earth Abides one of these days. It's been a long time since I first read it.
Suggestion for another Dune video: The Islamic elements of all three screen adaptations.
After all, what’s most surprising is that the pre 9/11 miniseries depicts the Fremem most like an IRL Muslim country. You can even hear the call to prayer in some of the miniseries city scenes.
2022 Dune is by contrast really careful to take on some of the aesthetic trappings of Islam while dancing around calling them Zensunni space Muslims. It’s a film that is really afraid of being Islamophoblic, Islamophilic or saying anything about Islam or the War in Afghanistan that had been officially lost just a year before.
SoDak tourism should be cutting you a check. Your setting makes me wanna hike the Black Hills.
The Sleeper must awaken.
I've never understood why someone, Jodorowski for example, would want to make a Dune movie that had almost nothing to do with Dune. Others have done this with various IP's as well. If you don't really want to make a Dune movie (or whatever IP), then why buy the rights and say you're making one?
There are three obvious options, and lots of less obvious ones.
1) The creator of the new thing fundamentally doesn't understand the existing work.
2) They don't care about the work they're using, but as long as using the name gets them attention it has done its job.
3) They actually hate the original thing, and they want $OFFICIAL_NEW_THING to neuter the original's influence.
And, of course, mixing and matching happens. Note also that it can be difficult to tell the difference between the first and third options, and both of those options gain the benefits of option two for finding funding and an audience.
When the scene of the rain coming down, my first thought was, "Ok, how do I stop it?" ;-)
I think hitchhikers guide to the galaxy can be viewed the same way. A story retold over a variety of medium’s with slight changes to suit those mediums.
I've read the original six books. Plus a few of the other things. The Frank stuff is all pretty good-great, the post Frank stuff ranges wildly.
Part of me wants to read the Dune books, but my first experience of Dune was the most recent movies. Im both worried A. I'll spoil myself for future films and B. I'm worried the book will be so vastly different it'll change my mental perception of Dune in general.
Good video
The Dune novels, at least the first three, offer a unique experience in literature.
Rereading them provides a unique experience.
When one rereads them, they can experience them from Paul's perspective.
One has some general recollection of the events, but doesn't recall 100% of the details.
That's essentially what Paul's prescience provided him.
When I first read Dune Messiah, I thought it was one of the worst books based on how Paul behaved.
On the second time through I recognized that he was avoiding the choices his son made in Children of Dune. Changed my perspective on the book completely.
Dunno if you will see this. Is that the extended version or the tv version? Where is the best place to see your version? I really like the movie from 1984 a lot of people shit on it but i love it. Dont really liek the new one to be hoenst.
Despite its flaws, I like the '84 version too. The much-despised extended cut specifically. I'm not sure what you mean by "your version" but I ended up downloading bootlegs of the '84 and 2000 versions because I have no idea where my DVD's are anymore.
@@feralhistorian Oh cool so its like the extended cut is the one you like? Well yeah the cut you liked is what i meant sorry. Yeah i mean i know that the psionic weapons are not in the books but i still like it a lot. I dont like the new one really. he looks liek a pussy to me. You ever read the prequels by his son? Really good stuff in my opinion. Leaning about the butlerian jihad and where the navigators came from and whom was the first of them.
Algorithm is the mind killer
This video contains my poltical quote of the decade(so far)
Jodorowsky may have had a different vision on the theme of Dune - a generation of messiahs as opposed to just one - but I would give my left arm just to be able to see it made. Obviously I can say that with a fair idea of retaining all my limbs for the foreseeable future but, having seen and read of his concepts for the movie, it surely would have been magnificent for good or bad reasons. We will never know.
Congrats to 10k subscribers.
Also, I would like to say that I hated how Villeneuve portrays the Harkonnen in his movies.
They're the ''bad guys'', so he turned them into a Wish version of the Cenobites that live in BDSM dungeons and to hammer it down to the "dumb mainstream audience", he even turned their planet in black & white. In the book, they're portrayed as uber-decadent, predatory capitalists.
They do monstrous things but in the end of the day, they're still human and I think, that makes them more scary than being portrayed as genetic freaks.
Generally speaking, I dislike the Villeneuve adaptation for their boring, brutalist art style & dumping down many of the concepts from the books.
Its my favorite.
Although Dune has homophobia in it, the Baron's degeneracy is due to him prefering teen boys not just being attracted to males, and he is also implied to have abused his nephew.
Good point and a serious omission on my part.
@@feralhistorianThe Harkonnens are so depraved in every way, it's easy to miss one of the many specifically horrifying details about them. But thanks for owning the omission. Great video, congratulations on the numbers, and I am pleased to be one of your subscribers. This is my new favorite take on Dune.
I often wonder if someone pointing that out to Herbert is why a certain spoiler someone got smacked around in God Emperor of Dune for being weirded out by gay folk.
Gee, I wonder why?
Words are like weapons; they wound sometimes
"...Look at what they accomplished with no weapons and just 11 guys who didn’t even speak English! And that proves that sometimes great ideas are actually horrible ideas"
-Samhad Hyd-uin
Nice
I might be a heretical abomination but I think I prefer the 2000 SciFi Channel’s version. While the DV version is grittier and closer to my imagined visuals of the story, the SciFi version is much closer to the original book. I still can’t wrap my head around how DV changed Chani’s story so radically.
Dune 2000 is the definitive adaptation, the complaints against it are imo strengths, It comes off like a stage performance to me where what matters is the story not the spectacle
@@David-cw7pd Exactly. Just reread the first three books, btw. Might cue up the SciFi versions of Dune and Children of Dune, both of which I own on DVD as you can't find them streaming anywhere.
@@theraven6836 both are on youtube, periodically until they get yanked, before the new ones youtube didnt care though so WB must be pulling them as they find them
They are indeed navigators not the folders of space, it’s another part of Dune that Warhammer 40k seemingly lifted, with their psyker navigators
Yahya al shuhada!
I will never relent to saying "Im dressed like Santa" or whatever they yelled in the new movie.
It has been my experience that most people have seen the movie but not read the book.
ive read all the books, but only after lynch dune and sci-fi miniseries. each iteration has its strengths and weaknesses, but together i think it gives you a better idea of the story. someday people are going to feed all of it into an ai and tell it to take the best stuff out of all of it and turn it into a stand alone movie. this will be followed by a machine crushing riot at the data center.
Honestly, i think they shouldve emphasized harkonnens homosexuality. The universal empire in dune is culturally islamic, more specifically turkish and iranian inspired, so unless they deliberately endorsed some very unpopular afghan traditions they would probably criminalize it or at least make it a severe taboo. Trying to extrapolate modern and uniquely western cultural quirks like legal homosexuality into a setting nearly 30 millennia in the future is ridiculous.
I also had a similar mental image of the baron
Film is the Book Killer...
My niche complaint: WTF is up with those stubby, katana looking things? The way the fights are described in the novel makes it fairly clear they use rapiers.
Dune, Dune, Dunc
Curious, do you consider what Herbert's son put out as part of 'all the books'? I sure as hell don't, and I _have_ read all the _real_ books.
I do not.
@@feralhistorian My favorite Dune book is God Emperor. I kind of like the idea that Leto's entire goal is to be so draconian and fascist that the very DNA of humans will never forget the experience. And that his 'golden path' is merely the plodding continuation of human existence. Though when you compare alternative is extinction by machines, maybe plodding is OK after all.
I don't believe I've read everything by Herbert, but I think I've covered most. My individual favorite is The White Plague, particularly since I, as a biochemist, know how close we are to living such a reality.
people keep saying that dune subverts the hero's journey or that it's a warning against the notion of heroes or people with power but imo, it just makes a show of doing that without actually doing that. paul IS a hero. the hero that brings about the god emperor that legitimately leads humanity onto "the golden path"... the only path to humanity's survival. that - the narrative of the golden path - is NEVER challenged or questioned. paul may not be the messiah but he's john the baptist. and his son really is the messiah. and the story kind of makes a perverse hash out of its morality by dramatizing what is essentially the machiavellian notion that in order to make a golden path cake, you gotta crack some genocidal eggs.
the story is about a hero who, in order to save humanity, has to slaughter entire planetfuls of peoples. it is COMPLETELY about the ends justifying the means.
the heroes and messiahs pay a price. but the necessity of their deeds is never in question.
some warning!
There's definitely some narrative shift as Herbert wrote the sequels. Dune on its own as a stand-alone work does hit differently than Dune in context of what was written later.
Actually it keeps the same exact theme of beware heroes, The God Emperor of Dune is even more of a monster, and like many monsters very compelling. The sacrificial system is in place because humanity cannot escape from the rigidity of prophecy, People like Duncan and Miles are always the real heroes and moral. As I say in a comment above, there is a curious element of 4th wall breaking in Dune. And in order to "escape" from the rules of the author not only the golden path is created, many other pieces fall into place. And who survives? Well Duncan rides off the story in a No-ship, a ship specifically made so that people with prophetic powers cant see them, and so rides off from the grasp of Herbert and we the reader.
I love Dune, what's this Dunc though?
that say DUNC
Lies can emerge from nothing.
Barron Harkonnen wasn't a homosexual, he was a pedophile. He wasn't attracted to men, he wanted boys. Case in point where he chastises Piter for his desire for Lady Jessica by pointing out he gave up Paul. After Duke Leto does the poison tooth bit he even calls for "the boy who so resembled young Paul" to be sent to his private chambers, "drugged, I'm in no mood for a struggle". Personally, I think that's a very important distinction, particularly in our modern day and age.
ah, Dune, where the good guys wear black and the bad guys wear black, and the indigenous wear black, the future where everyone wears a gimp suit but no one is happy.
The future where people with blue eyes are special, better, perhaps uber?
Dune, where people stare intently at each other and where the best character is a foetus.
Dune stole my money and made me acutely aware of how much uncomfortable time went by, a film with zero immersion.
Such a shame a bloviating outdated old book has such valuable IP. So many better modern stories to tell.
7:22 when you said the N word and the T word, closed caption was off until 7:32
I read all the books but did not like Brian Hebert’s rendition seems like trash novels. Thx
Our modern morally degenerate world is so evil, compared to even 60 years ago, that it’s hard to portray an evil character. Huh.
Sometimes I think our planet is Geidi Prime and we are all Harkonnens.
It's more out in the open or brazen now. Any evil you can think of isn't new. Humans have been terrible to each other pretty much since the beginning.
Gee I wonder what this guy means by degenerate?
I don’t think that’s true, and I don’t think Feral’s point was correct. The new baron harkonnen is designed for spectacle and memorability, and the nazi aesthetic is simply overused
@@zombieshoot4318considering that Geidi Prime’s description in the later books is a thinly veiled criticism of US office culture that arose in the ‘70s and ‘80s… yeah