@@cool-aquarian Then the game had been decided at the moment of beginning and they do not play at all. Oracle just sees the result and mind-reader reads from his mind it to trust him. So they shake hands and play another one.
@@LOGICALLYYOURS Who can see the the future or oracel will win because he can see the future...before playing chess he can see that who is going to win..he know that he will win so he play the game...and ofcourse mind reader can read the mind and will try to rotate the chess board to exchange the colour..but still oracle will win as no one can change the future..am I wright??
The scenario is flawed. "The future" is undefined. If the Oracle sees he has lost, he can change the course of the game, creating a new "future". There is no definite future to be seen.
But he definitely knows what the mind reader would play for every move he plays , so after analysing and trying all possible moves and their outcomes he can choose the one with the outcome favouring his win
@@anish_3.141 if he sees all futures, like some sort of super computer, and the other guy reads his mind, also knowing all futures, it's a draw. A chess game played perfectly is a draw
@@alex2005z well, it was never stated that the mind reader had the capacity to accept all that information, someone who sees a future constantly changing will accept far more information that that person whos only just reading something specific, now, if if the mind reader reads all minds around him, and maybe, isnt able to turn it off, then, in a closed room, itd go exactly as you've said
i think the oracle has been underrated. he can see the future for each move he tries, so he could just go through all of the moves and play a move where he sees himself winning, essentially having a perfect strategy. even if the oracle is a horrible player, he can still win, and the mind reader wont be able to get any insight from him since the oracle doesn't know why he'll win, just that he will.
Yep oracle is definitely misjudged He can see future which means he knows the next move of opponent and pick a best move to counter that move not a best move for what he expects opponent to play There is a difference in two Moreover if he can see future he should be seeing all of opponents best moves but in video he is just told to be given no advantage
Try playing against supercomputer with you having power of undoing as many moves as you want. Can you then win against supercomputer? So answer should if one is exceptional at chess he will win inspite of not having any super powers Edit: I might be wrong!
@@prem7676 Power to undo moves is not much helpful. Supercomputer is free to play another move as per your new move after undo. Just tell supercomputer's next 2 moves beforehand in own turn. Any person with decent chess experience can easily kill off supercomputers pieces before they can even come into any action.
Why you think, that Oracle can't change future? If he knows future, when he lost, he has ability to make another moves. Even if he can't change future, he still can analyze this game in deeper future, and use this knowledge to play optimally
This puzzle can be easily simulated in a real chess match with one additional rule for Oracle and MindReader: 1. Oracle must talk loud whatever strategy he is thinking in his mind during his or opponents turn. 2. Mind Reader has to tell Oracle his next exact move during Oracle’s turn to play, and honor that move in his next turn.
Oh and in high level games both players usually know what the other is going for, the difference is in how well they evaluate whether that works or not. It's not to common for super gms to just miss a move, although it does happen
It's not exact because Oracle might know future but he can't change it so no matter if he knows that he is even winning or losing . Outcome will always be same for him . But if you announced your next move before your opponents move. It allows him to change his move according to mind readers next move announcement. If your alternate scenario happened then every time player who announced his next move before his opponants move will loose each and every single game.
Clearly, mind-reading cannot be inferior to seeing the future, since the mind-reader can read minds AND see the future in the oracle's mind. So the mind-reader essentially has both powers. If the powers are enough to change the outcome, then the mind-reader will have the advantage, or at least, not be at a disadvantage due to powers.
Excellent! ... That's why people who can anticipate other's moves are said to be playing "4D Chess" ... Because its the ultimate Super Power in any intelligence based games.
Language barrier would screw over the mind-reader. If the oracle thinks in another language their mind-reading skills would be useless to them; while the oracle could still be able to SEE the moves the mind-reader is about to play.
@@jessicataylor7174 ... Who says mind reading is done verbally? ... Verbal communication is a tool to help pass on meaning and information ... A mond reader would extract that information directly from the mind, without having to pass through slow filters like audio and visuals.
Oracle: sees himself losing in future. Mind-Reader: reads oracle's blank mind, found nothing and he plays his own strat move. Oracle: shook hands and resigned.
Stockfish 14 (Oracle) : Can you possibly defeat me Human? (mind reader) Human (Mind reader) : um... You have explored Billions of moves and you can specifically find Hidden weakness on my position that my mind can't really comprehend your plans.
The guy that sees the future doesn't actually have a super power, because he can't use it to change any outcomes ... Even if he is going to lose, he would still have to sit through the game and lose. Mind reader can use his power to change outcomes. Meaning he can use his power to change a possible loss into a win or a draw.
Not really. Oracle can play the game move-by-move and stay ahead of Mind Readers future move/strategy. Mind Reader has to play same move which Oracle already saw. Mind reader can try to read Oracle’s mind all he wants but he gets only one alternate turn to play a move, and Oracle already knows what move it is going to be, and can play a counter move/strategy beforehand. In a practical game, Mind Reader will always be atleast a move or two behind Oracle because he cannot manufacture extra moves in a game to keep up with Oracle’s prior knowledge of his moves.
@@cool-aquarian ... You realize that whatever the Oracle can see, the mind reader can see too ... Meaning when mind reader is next to Oracle he actually has both super powers ... So they can both see the future.
@@wayando yes Mind Reader can see what Oracle can see, but Oracle knows the exact future moves of Mind Reader and can play counter moves beforehand, so it does not matter whatever mind reader can see, but MindReader has to play same move and cannot change his strategy/future move from what Oracle has already seen.
If Oracle is kind of Doctor Strange, then he would see every possible future, he doesn't need to calculate anything, he would just see the whole game in his mind for every possible move
It is a curse to be able to see the future. Imagine, you are simply a witness to all the misfortunes that would happen to you , but can do little to alter it. That's why you'd be better off not knowing what the future has instore for you, but plan and be prepared for the worst.
I think seeing the future is gonna win since he could just make a move without thinking about it, so that the mind reader doesn’t know what he’s gonna do next
the person who can see the future would likely win since they can make unpredictable moves without conscious thought, making it difficult for the mind reader to anticipate their next move.
It would also be affected by how the Oracle's power works. You are assuming he can see only one move in the future. However, if he can also detect alternative futures that depend on his actions, it would be a different calculation. As he contemplates his response to e4, he will see his opponents next move and be able to predict which response on his part would lead to the best result. Therefore, both players would consistently have drawn games between them!
There are so many assumptions floating around in this puzzle. Can the oracle change the future? The video assumes no. But that basically nullifies the oracle's power. If I play a stronger player, I know there's a 90% chance they're going to beat me. Is that a super power? What does the oracle's extra 10% certainty add? Or if the oracle has more detailed knowledge of the future, what exactly keeps him from using it to re-try the future? If he knows (for instance) that he will be checkmated by the opponent's queen, what keeps him from forcing an exchange of queens to stop that? (Yes, there's pawn promotions, but let's say he notices that it's a natural queen) Can the mind-reader just read surface thoughts, or does he have access to all of the other player's tactical skill? If he can only understand his candidate moves that the opponent is actively thinking of, it seems he will blunder more than his opponent will, because his opponent is probably focusing more on this own moves.
If the future that the oracle can see changes based on the mind reader's move that is based on what he "anticipates", then the mind reader is basically playing against himself. It comes down if the mind reader can draw a game with himself.
@@LOGICALLYYOURS Welcome back, I hope you were away for nice reasons and it's great to have you back. I've missed your videos and all the lovely chatter in your comments section. You have built a nice community here 😊
I just started the video but he is what I think the solution is: The person that can see the future is going to win, since the fact he is playing means he will win. If he was going to loose he wouldn't play to begin with. Another option is that he just emptys his mind except when its his turn, and only thinks in the next move (which he will have thought before the match)
First, what does it mean to see the future?? Does Oracle sees a definite future that will certainly happen and any chance of preventing that will be the cause of its happening Or does he sees all the future outcomes of the game from a certain point in time?? I suppose in both cases, the Oracle can't hide his thoughts from the Mind-Reader, thus, the latter is more likely to win.
There is a catch-22 in there if Oracle can not change the future: what about his own moves? Mindreader's moves are reactions to Oracle's moves. If minreadets moves are pre-determined until the end of the game before the Game even starts, then so are Oracles. Which means he has no control over his own game. If Oracle can freely decide his moves and Mind-reader has to react, then - while Oracle can not read Mindreader's analysis - Oracle can deconstruct it by foreseeing the future for each of his own moves.
But could you be assuming the mind-reader is able to understand the thoughts of their opponent? It doesn't say how experienced they are at chess and the thoughts of an experienced chess player could be confusing to someone whose mind is not accustomed to the terms they use in their mind. :)
I think it will always end in a draw regardless of who is weaker/stronger of the two. The reasoning is as follows. First, I will assume that the oracle not only sees the very next move, but he can see as far into the future as the end of the game. Second, the mind-reader can read the oracle's mind, and the oracle can see into the future, so essentially, the mind-reader can also see into the future. So this game can be "simplified" as one that is being played between two oracles. Call them A and B. Suppose that B wins the game. Then both A and B can see all the steps that lead to B's victory. However, assuming that each player is playing to win, A would want to change his moves after seeing the future in which B is victorious. But if A changes his moves, then we would have a different future than the one which he saw initially. So there is a contradiction. Similar argument holds for a future in which A is victorious instead of B, leading us to a place of contradiction. Therefore, we must have a future in which neither A nor B is victorious. And hence there can only be a draw.
I agree that we end up in a contradiction. Since a draw is not in the interest of winning but, if anything, not losing, I wouldnt even say there is a solution. Unless, they find out there exists a perfect, truely uncounterable strategy that makes the one taking the first move win
Any problem that involves time travel or seeing the future is going to be swamped by paradox unless the rules for seeing the future are exhaustively specified. If the oracle can see every moment of the future, then he can see for example that the mind reader will take his queen if he castles, which gives him the opportunity to move his queen instead of castling. He can also see the future created by moving his queen, along with every other possible move he could make, and every subsequent response by the mind reader.
The best answer on this puzzle.. 110% agree with you.. The future won't be certain as soon as mind reader will read the mind of the other person & that's a paradox
Also, there is an anime called Code: Geass that explores this puzzle in one of its episodes. A highly strategic man plays against someone who can hear people's thoughts. The mind reader has not even acquainted himself with the rules but wins anyway by reading the opponent's biggest fears in terms of gameplay outcomes. Every chess opener has a weakness, and the mind reader knows what it is solely based on his opponent's thorough calculations.
Oracle will win. Reason : Since he can see the future, he would have accepted to play the match only because he knows that he will win. If he would have lost, as he can see the future he wouldn't have come to play in the first place.
I think I might know why the mind-reader, seeing that the oracle knows he would win, still agrees to play. Letting the oracle win a chess match is a small price to pay to be able to dig about in his mind for all the other stuff he sees in the future. Ask anything while playing and he won't be able to not think it!
The Oracle can read the future (the next move) which is certainly going to be played. So, he will do his best to eliminate its effect at the long run. Based on his successive actions, the future should be changed.
The question seems fundamentally flawed without defining the powers of the Oracle. The example of 1.e4 is terrible since White goes first anyways. There is no difference seeing the opponent play e4 first or knowing he will play it. The real kicker is what happens after e4. Does the Oracle know for instance that white will play 2.Nc3 no matter what? If the Oracle can see the next opponent move, and that move cannot be changed, then it becomes easy to set traps that would lead to the Oracle winning every time, at long as the Oracle has sufficient skill level. It essentially gives the Oracle 2 consecutive moves since no move can perfectly defend against every move. If the move can be changed, then the Oracle effectively has no superpower. Either way, the question seems completely one sided depending on the details of the powers.
Chess is a questionable example for this puzzle , since it's not the depth of the calculations who's finally determine a winner ( ask stockfish). However, this clip is flawless ,logically speaking ;P
Doesn't this come from the Twilight books? I'm pretty sure there was something in one of them about the mind-reading vampire and the future-seeing vampire having a game of chess where they used their powers to see each other's moves. The idea that those books would come up with something that sparks intellectual debate is kind of hilarious.
This puzzle reminds of unstoppable force vs immovable object. It's really impossible to determine which is what without having a universal reference frame. If we know the universal reference frame, we could figure out the solution.
Case may be different. He can see all sequence of moves and can follow the sequence without using any mind. Mind reading is about finding calculations based on a move. So if he calculates and plays the best move everytime then it would leads to a draw. But white has to take first move. So white can't loose
I want to consider this idea from various philosophical approaches to time to truly define what it means to "see the future", in addition to define what mind-reading is. For simplicity sake, the oracle is going to be named Rick and the mind reader will be called Reed. For future vision: If Rick is viewing the future in a deterministic paradigm where the future will not change based on free will, then both Rick and Reed have no say in whether or not they are going to win. In this scenario, though, it wouldn't be a very interesting puzzle if that were the case. However, if Rick views the world through a paradigm which matches The Many Worlds Interpretation, then things start to get exciting. The Many Worlds Interpretation would basically imply that timelines split off at each choice, and so Rick would have full view of this timeline, if not a selective view. From here, he can see the best moves for himself and the most likely moves that Reed could possibly play. For mind-reading: The depth at which Reed can read minds is important. Would he only read Rick's game plan, or would he also be able to see the future alongside Rick? If Reed can see the future through Rick's mind, it's possible that Reed would need some time to follow the thought process or possibly see Rick's core desires through the plethora of future timelines, if we are following The Many Worlds Interpretation. Implying that Reed will not be overwhelmed by seeing the future alongside Rick while also seeing Rick's thought process, then Reed would be able to see Rick's plan and the future, along with his own thoughts independent of Rick. So... If the future is deterministic, anybody could possibly win. If the future is several branching timelines, then we should follow your example while also considering that playing via backwards induction could easily be a possibility. Though there is one final factor I forgot to mention: Are both players each aware of the other's abilities prior to this game? If not, then Reed clearly has the advantage and will most likely win. If so, Rick can at least make less risky moves based on the presupposition that Reed will choose the best possible move. Either way, it feels like seeing the future opens the door for backwards induction here, trying to optimize each play based on optimal play from both players looking at the same diagram of options.
the mind reader would win because he would read the person that can see the future's mind, which means he knows the future that the person that can see the future is seeing
Well, if you see future move and the future cannot be changed, just simply move your figure so that in the next move you will beat the opponent figure. As easy as it is. Even if mind-reader knows about it, he cannot change the move (change the future) and will make a suicidal move
Please keep commenting your analysis. I will reply each answer at the earliest. Also please reply on comments if you could clarify someone's doubt. Thank you :)
The game is never played as the Oracle sees who wins and the Mind Reader sees it, too. BTW, equally skilled players don't always draw as each will probably enter multiple won or lost variations.
As always, the problem is in the formulation of the problem. While the words Oracle and Telepath seem to be intuitive, they don't really provide any specifics about how their powers work. That does not allow to draw any conclusions about the outcome of the game. But if you theorize on coffee grounds, then ... 1) if the oracle freely looks at every second of the game and can see all possible outcomes (like a supercomputer with an unlimited resource), then after each opponent's move it can re-select the winning sequence of moves - after all, it changes with each move. Then reading thoughts will not give anything, because after each move it will be another game, which each time develops in favor of the oracle. To simplify, then for any move of a telepath, the oracle always has a sequence of moves leading to victory. And it doesn't matter if the telepath spied this move from the opponent or played the game himself. But, let's say that the telepath is the same supercomputer as the oracle. Then, while the seer is looking through the options, choosing the path leading to victory, the mind reader can have time to peek and choose the sequence of moves leading to the defeat of the oracle. It turns out, as if one person plays an ideal game with himself. But... the oracle uses "its own power", while the telepath tries "someone else's power", at the level of the original user - here I think to give a point to the soothsayer. 2) Let's remove all these supercomputers from our thoughts and now we will assume that the opponents' forces work within 1 move. Then, at the moment of HIS turn, the Oracle already knows the answer of the opponent.. While the telepath, at the time of the OPPONENT's move, knows what move is expected of him. There's a paradox here. 3) The classic fantasy oracle sees the future fragmentarily. He does not control his power, but only uses small hints. Then, suppose that the predictor does not see the moves of the opponent, but only periodically can find out the outcome of the game. Here in this option the logic of the author of the video works perfectly. And all the bonuses go to the Telepath. We get the following result: the outcome of the game largely depends on how the oracle's power works, as well as how well he himself can use it. Then stronger the oracle is, the less useful the Telepath is and vice versa.
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I think the mind-reader would not be unbeatable: if both him and his opponent fail to see a tactic before he makes his move, but his opponent sees it after he makes his move, he would get a losing position and lose the game if his opponent doesn't blunder. The oracle however would be unbeatable: he would see all the future positions, and calculate until the end of the game. The mind-reader could then read the oracle's mind to play perfectly as well, and so the game would always be a draw. Your conception of the oracle is different though: if he can only see the future, but not change it, that means he can only see the future AFTER he makes his move, and so his ability is essentially useless. In that case, any result is possible.
I don’t agree with explanation. Assuming that both Mind Reader and Oracle are equally good at the game without superpowers, Oracle can get upper hand and win or draw easily everytime by following simple strategy: 1. Do not form any specific strategy of his own. Keep a blank mind to play based on Mind Readers next few future moves. 2. Play the game move-by-move and stay ahead of opponents future move/strategy. Mind Reader has to play same move which Oracle already saw. Mind reader can try to read Oracle’s mind all he wants but he gets only one alternate turn to play a move, and Oracle already knows what move it is going to be, and can play a counter move/strategy beforehand. In a practical game, Mind Reader will always be atleast a move or two behind Oracle because he cannot manufacture extra moves in a game to keep up with Oracle’s prior knowledge of his moves.
The oracle knows which move the mind reader will make and if he changes he is not a fortune teller. The confusing part here is when I read the fortune teller seeing me move a pawn what happens if I try to move a knight? It should not be possible. I move the pawn, realise I have no free will, flip the table and run. We both knew this would happen.
One Power of Oracle(See Future) person is not considered here. Oracle know the Future of Opponent move- means 1)"The Future will change according to each Oracle move-which also is known by Oracle", 2)"Oracle knows the future means Oracle is indirectly mind reading the opponent next move". So Conclusion- Oracle knows all the Opponent move as like mind reader+Oracle can change the future by His moves=Oracle has the power of Mind reader+Future changer. So there will be no defeat for Oracle- it will be either Win or Draw match.
The person who can see future he can change it also so ofcourse he will win as he can check his every move and mind will tell the future of each move....
Everytime the foresight user tries to imagine another future where they could win mind reader will also see it and come up with a strategy to counter that until the only future left is for the foresight user is to lose or draw edit: but in most other situations besides chess seeing the future has a better advantage granted you can change it as you can't change what your opponent chooses to play in chess but you can avoid getting in an accident if you know where, when and how it happens
Technically, the future is not the future if you can change it ... So, the player who can see the future can see it, but he can't do anything about it ... He just has to experience it as it comes, even though he already knows. If he saw a lose, he would cry over it ... But nothing cab be done ... It's already a lose written in the future.
Long before the game the oracle has allready seen all the possible futures. He knows he will face down a mind-reader and which strategies would fail and which would work against him.
If the one who sees the future has the intention of playing randomly and sees that he will win with this strategy (no info how far in the future he can see), the he won't think of any move and, no matter how strong he is, the mind reader won't have the possibility to read anything. But that's not a matter, he would lose anyway since it's written in the future.
*As you said Oracle can't do anything with his superpower but he can do a lot. If he know that the opponent is going to play E4 in future then he would play the best possible move against it. In every chance he has the upper hand as he knows what to do to destroy the next person already. Also,he knows the final outcome of the match,so if he will lose in future then he'll avoid any mistakes that will make loose.* *But,the above case itself arises a paradox that how come by any chance there can be two future - the first in which he lost and the second in which he won.*
It actually forms a loop. Mindreader will be able to read Oracle. But oracle can sense what the mind reader is going to play. If mind reader knows what he is going to play then he will need to change his move which will allow oracle to know his move again. If the game is played then both of them will know who is going to win. If oracle knows future then mind reader will also know the future. It all depends on who can calculate better. Sometimes in chess even if you know what your opponent is going to play still you might loose. For example play against chess engine. Know all the lines it is going to play and still u loose.
I'm sorry but there is one problem in your analysis. The Oracle can change the future otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. Imagine he sees the opponent will play queen f6 for example and he is preparing for that with a pawn. Than the Mind-reader would clearly not play queen f6. Taking that in consideration the game will always end in an draw cause the Oracle will see every single outcome in the game so he will not make any mistake. With the Mind-reader knowing everything too it can only be a draw. Except it depends on the colour who will win when every Player plays a perfect game with every Option in mind. I think white will always have an advantage for the win.
I disagree wholehearteldy. First, assumptions: Mind Reader (MR) Future Seer (FS) I am presuming FS sees possible outcomes of the future, based on a PROBABILITY of them occurring. Otherwise, it is meaningless. Any other way, then the MR can simply NOT play the move he knows the FS has seen him play. It must be probablity of play, otherwise you have a paradox. With these assumptions, the FS will contantly have his probabilities updated as the MR reads his thoughts and inserts his own calculation. Therefore the FS will gain, through the updating of probable states, the insight of the MR. The FS will also have his "miscalculation" corrected by the rise of probable futures that he considered were bad. There is an information loop here, where what the MR knows and FS knows gets constantly updated, which in turn, updates the probable states of the future. However.... The FS will have the advantage, since the FS, say he looks 3 moves in advance, and sees a variety of board states. His knowledge might look like 1. FS 2. MR 3. FS Where 1 move is made by FS, a response by MR, and a response by FS. On his turn, the FS gains information on 3 moves in advance, and has the feedback loop mentioned in the assumptions to adjust the strength of the position from the updating probabilies of the MR's influence on his thoughts. After the FS makes a move, the FS can simply stop thinking. Therefore, the MR is only given knowledge of 2. MR 3. FS He only gets super knowledge of 2 ply. Conversely, after the MR has moved, the FS turns his power on again, and gains knowledge of 3. FS 4. MR 5. FS Therefore, the FS is always having the advantage of one more ply. In other words, in your min/max tree, the FS controls the power on his move, which is one ply less than the information the MR has on his move. The FS's power works independent of the MR. The MR's power is dependent upon the FS. Therefore, the control of information is soley in the FS's hands (mind). Other neat little trick. The futrue seer can presumably see what opening will be played the day before, allowing him to prepare only the lines of refutation, and none else, therefore giving the FS an information advantage.
Steve.. I truly appreciate your efforts and the time you spent for writing the comment. I am yet to read it thoroughly but I’m replying based on your first paragraph. FS don’t have multiple possible outcomes to choose from. He could only see only one outcome and that is eternal. So, from the FS perspective, you must consider right from the first move. Consider MR played a move, now FS has to make his move. FS can see that he himself is going to play a specific move (example d5), but where this move is coming from? It’s coming from his own knowledge. So he must play it since it’s future. Did FS make a good move from the MR perspective?? FS can’t say that coz he can’t read mind. So, FS has to play his natural game… it’s just that he can see in advance what is going to appear on the board.
@@LOGICALLYYOURS then you have a paradox. MR (or FS) can see the one future and not do it. When the future is seen, if he tries to grab a different piece, is his hand magically forced to move the piece for the future he has seen?
The oracle will always win in at least 7 moves as long as the oracle only looks at the future of the mindreader's captured pieces Explanation: In order for future reading to become a genuine future reading ability, the future should not change. A true future reading will lock you into the future regardless of your actiona. If the oracle sees the future, he locks both himself and the opponent to that future. If the oracle looks at the future states of the chessboard, the oracle will lock both himself and the mindreader on that path. Rather, the oracle should only look at the future of the mindreader's pieces on the captured area and never on the chess board. This will lock the mindreader's pieces to be captured while the oracle can focus on taking out pieces he hasn't seen yet in the boars. At best, the oracle can do this at every turn, look at the future of captured pieces then capture something else. The only thing the mindreader will see are his captured pieces and the oracle's strategy. Regardless what the mindreader does, he is locked into a future where his pieces will be captured, while the oracle's pieces are not locked to any future at all. At the oracle's 7th turn, the oracle is guaranteed that 14 of the mindreader's piece will be captured. This means, the oracle should view the futures of the captured special pieces first and take out pawns. That way, only the mindreader's king and 1 pawn will remain at the oracle's 14th turn.
I think somehow both will be at a same level, because if mind reader can read mind to perform a move, a oracle is also aware of the move going to happen so may it is not possible to change future but it is possible to change the present which will definitely change something in future...
the guy who sees the future can change it by watching the whole game and find out his mistake and play another one then the mind reader can read that and change his game so it's infinity loop of thinking between them so either one of them will lose because time out while he was thinking or they will play last move he thought about before the time runs out in this case at the end of the game there will be few possibilities and the game ends with draw
The oracle would win. Since he can see the future, he would likely become aware that he is playing someone who can read minds. Therefore, he can come up with a game plan to confuse the mind reader by thinking about multiple moves all at once and deciding how to move from there. Additionally, just because the mind reader can read minds does not mean that he knows how to play chess. Also, Oracle would have already played the game since he can already see it and change the game if he sees a future where he loses. He has the power of hindsight which the mind reader would not.
I agree with Spike’s comment.. if the Oracle makes any such plans to confuse MR, the MR would already know it. Also, I have covered all possible cases based on the real chess knowledge of the two players.
@@LOGICALLYYOURS well I look at it like this, if oracle sees every move that got him the lost, he can practice another opening and see what the future looks like there. He can also practice said movement to the point where it becomes more so muscle memory rather than him having to think about his moves. For example: both spike and logically drive to their mothers house every day. While you’re driving, you don’t think about how to get to your mom. In fact the only time you really think about how to get to your mom is when you’re making a turn. Driving to your mother basically has become muscle memory. I play chess and use the Vienna opening every single time. No need to think, just move. Because you can memorize a line to the point of it becoming muscle memory, I think oracle can outsmart the mind reader at that point.
Depends on how the powers work. Let’s say that the Oracle will see every possible future and their are no limits. The mind reader will be able to “read” the Oracles mind even if there’s a language barrier and their are no limits. Then it will always be a draw. The mind reader will know every possible game just like the Oracle. Resulting in perfect chess. Which always ends in a draw. The mind reader and the Oracle both know every possible outcome and they will both know what the following moves are that the opponent plays for the rest of the game. It’s basically putting Stockfish 15.1 against Stockfish 15.1 which almost always ends in a draw. Sometimes it’s a win for either side because of the speed at which their playing combined with the color of each player. Out of a 1000 games I’d say like 996 would be draws and 2 wins for the mind reader and 2 wins for the Oracle.
You forgot about evaluation part. Each player evaluates the position differently, so depth doesn't matter too much. Also the Oracle seeing his own future moves, so it can't change his strength.
If the mind-reader can never do worse than a draw, then the oracle will never see himself winning. In the words of that well-known film "The only winning move is not to play".
situation 4 for the mind reader: same depth, different candidates. in this case, the mind reader and the other player are about equally strong, but they make different candidates. in this situation, the mind reader would merge their and the other's predictions, to make for a stronger chart. (you forgot about this one!!!! (and the several other scenarios where they think different about their candidate moves.))
It is always a draw, the Oracle can just play moves that lead to draws or wins, and the mind reader having access to the same information will play only responses that lead to draws, the key is that when you can see the future then you can pick the perfect moves... But if he can't change the possible outcomes he is able to see, the question is kinda pointless because the game will be already determined from the beginning and the mind reader will know the result as well.
Since the game of chess has not been solved in a game theory sense, it is not known whether White or Black can force a win or whether White or Black can force a draw, just that one of these 4 possibilities must be the case. Suppose White can force a win, then it does not matter which power one has, it only matters who has the White pieces. And similar for the other 3 cases.
The Oracle will not only see the next move, he will see the final winning move, so he will always win if he played, otherwise if the end game he see he will lose he should not play from the beginning
I jumped to the solution. If a mind reader played Magnus Carlsen and the mind reader is a 1000 elo player (or any substantially weaker chess player) that person will be expected to lose obviously. Even if you could read minds, you'd have to understand the lines you were reading in Magnus's brain and then assess the position at the end of those lines to know which moves you should play in response to Magnus's planned moves. Otherwise you'll just pick one of the moves Magnus worked through in deciding how to move and since you're not good at chess chances you're not going to pick the same move a super GM would pick and thus you'll lose, almost all of the time. If you assume Magnus always thinks about the best move for his opponent then you'll have a better chance to draw but I'm not sure why you'd assume that your opponent, Magnus in my example, will always be thinking that such and such move is the optimal move for his opponent. Perhaps sometimes he does, but often I'm guessing he's assessing several possibilities and positions aren't perfectly clear and multiple moves might seemingly have some merit. In sum, I don't think this is a good logic problem, although it still might be fun to debate.
My thought of this is that the mind reader wins because they read the mind of the oracle so they know what happens in the future and can neutralize it before it happens rendering the Oracle useless and so it’s the same as a mind reader playing a normal person
A person who can see the future but cannot act in the present based on what he sees is a logical contradiction. In the process of looking into the future, his process affects what he thinks in the present. Therefore the 'future' changes the present and thus changes the future in an infinite regression. It makes no difference if he is playing chess or doing anything else. If the person can see the future in the sense of, 'if this happens then this will happen', and then he can change the 'if' part, he should be able to predict the consequences of any and all actions depending on how far he could see into the future. He would then be capable of seeing every chess game that could happen and just follow a winning one. He would be like an infinite supercomputer that could always take the course of a forced mate even from its first move.
Only oracle wins . He knows the next step . He will adjust accordingly even if he is not expert in playing. Because mind reader may read his mind but cannot change accordingly as it will change the definition of future seeing.
Person A- Mind reading Person B - See the future First we have to identify if it make sense that the future can or cannot be changed. Person B: Looks into the future quickly and sees who wins. If he wins, he won't look into the future. If he loses, he basically gives up. That is if we assume that the future can be changed. Because if he gives up, then he can change the future. If person B sees the future and whatever he sees means that he has to perform the action. That will bring him a different mode of thought, and might change the future. That is if Person B cannot change the future. So, if we assume that the future can change, then the mind reader will win because everything that Person B can see can be nullified by the mind reader. The mind reader can see what Person B sees but Person B cannot see what the mind reader see in his mind. The best thing to do to increase the chances of winning is for Person B not to use his powers. But, Person B will still think. So he would lose. While Person B is thinking for his move, Person A can analyze the way of thinking, Person B has. Therefore, he knows Person B's goal for his moves. Once Person A understand Person B's goal, then he can use that to his advantage. He does not need to know which move Person B will do, he only needs his intention why Person B moves in such a way. And he can use that to win. If ever Person B uses his power, since chess games are long, Person A can think for his moves while he frequently sees if Person B is looking at the future. If he does, then he can nullify that. And he can identify whether or not Person B is just thinking or actually looking into the future because if he is just thinking attempting to deceive Person A, Person B will know because visualizing positions is obscure and if ever Person B do that, it will affect his performance, so he won't. Person A can win the game. under such conditions. Whatever Person B sees Person A can see and nullify, and whatever Person A can read or see, Person B cannot. Person A can use Person B's power for his own advantage. That is, again, if the future can be changed. IF it does, Person B cannot trust what he sees, leaving his power useless. But, if the future can't be changed. They would be obligated to play and we will not know who will win. Because, if Person B sees himself winning and Person A sees it as well, then whatever Person A does is futile. But, if Person B sees himself losing, Person A will inevitably win. It means that we do not have the ability to know who wins in such condition. Because, all forms of strategy is useless if the future can't change. But, the possibilities change depending on the conditions.
The future seeing guy will see in the starting of the game that who is going to win. And yaa thats the answer. Because future is definite and no one can change it whether the guy is having any super natural powers or not . Actually after that it does not matter.
The depth of analysis is not independant of the persons power, if the oracle has the ability to see possible futures, they effectively have infinite depth of analysis. If we instead assume the future is fixed then the mind readers ability are functionally useless since the oracle will have all of his move preplanned and therefore will not think about the game while playing so their will be no depth for the mindreader to mindread.
"The Mind-reader can draw a game against a stronger Oracle." Can he though? At some point, you're going to run into a situation where, ideal play assumed, victory is inevitable. If the Oracle can reach that point before the Mind-reader can avoid that scenario, the Oracle wins. Now, theoretically, there is a way for someone to guarantee a win right from the starting move, but that's beyond the capabilities of both man and machine. _But not future-sight._ Any turn, he can check the future from any given move, and see if he wins from it. Therefore, if Oracle is White, he wins. If he's Black, then he just needs to wait for Mind-reader to make a mistake, _any_ mistake, and then Oracle wins again.
In chess, the player thinks of future possible conditions... Each move has to be played by keeping in mind the next possible move... So chess is already a game of future which the mind reader can already analyse if he is strong player plus if he can read the mind of oracle he is also well known to the future which the oracle analysis... So I guess there is higher chance of winning of the mind reader
My take: I don't think the Oracle's power should work by seeing one move into the future. It should be seeing the entire game play out like they hadn't seen the future. They would play their best game in that future, and if that game wasn't good enough, they would change their game plan and play better. Then if that wasn't good enough yet, they can simply change it again. Through this process, the Oracle will see every possibility until they settle on either a win or a draw. They are effectively a better chess engine, being able to see with absolute certainty what their opponent plays. That is, against normal opponents. The Mind-reader would get all of this information too. So, more concretely, this is a battle between two Oracles. If the future the Mind-reader sees through the Oracle's eyes is to their dissatisfaction, they can change their game plan all the same. The thing is that the Oracle doesn't need to calculate a thing. They can just see what they would have calculated to get all the answers immediately. So the only thing that the Mind-reader can see is what would happen, and try to change it just like the Oracle. This either goes on until a very odd game is played by the players because of their tug back and forth under time pressure, or until they settle on a draw and don't play their first moves.
How can the oracle see the not-written-yet future? The opponent, whoever he is, will select his move according to the move played by the oracle and before that move is made, there is no future to be seen. The only future related to the chess game that the oracle can definitely see is, for example, an earthquake will occur in the middle of the chess game and the game will be interrupted. Then he can offer a draw and both can run for their lives.
Originally Answered: If 2 people are playing chess and one is a mind reader but the other can see into the future, who would win and why? The one who reads the mind wins, is enough for him to imitate the game that the man who sees in the future sees, and then screw him after.
One doubt...if Oracle can't change the future...he can kill opponent pieces easily by putting counter attack to opponent future moves... according to video ...mind reader plays that move only ...loose his pieces ...even it is silly he should sacrifice all his pieces to Oracle...I think this is possible
1. the mind reader would only have his opponents calculation depth -1 so he would still lose against a stronger player. 2. the oracle would have a much easier time calculating because they only need to focus on 1 of the possible lines rather than all of them. also while its the opponents turn he can be thinking about the next position rather than all possible next positions.
If the Oracle could see POSSIBLE futures (like Dr. Strange in Infinity War) then that could be pretty useful. He could foresee how his opponent would fare against various openings and gambits, then play the one his opponent is least prepared for.
Its all about skills honestly. But i think future is better. He know beforehand that what move the mind reader will use and can perform a move that can encounter it (if he knows how) and the future is absolute so even though the mind reader can encounter the oracle attacks the future will remain the same. (Honestly seeing future is very confusing ability ngl)
in normal ches you can predict the future using the positions in the board, in practical terms is like you can see the future/see the movements of your opponents without any super power, so, if both player play the perfect game, the player who plays with the whites has a little advantage, and in the most cases, in a perfect game, the whites win, for a little margin.
If I'm the Oracle and i see world is going to end tomorrow it will end tomorrow, no mind reader can stop that, that is why the chance of winning by jajment of moves:- If Oracle see every move has been played in the way that he loses, he still going to be in losing side And if he sees that he is going to win, the mind reader can't change the pattern that he moves the chess pieces because it will change future (but you can not change future how hard you try). So chances of Oracle seeing future as win, lost,drow are:- 33%
Same outcome but a different "analysis" I just thought that it would be the same from the oracle POV if I was announcing every move before I did. As you clearly explained, chess is played choosing from different choices in a step-by-step process, move and reaction, so it would be similar to just announcing the move.
(This is copied and pasted from a TikTok comment section I posted. That's why it's numbered like that) I got two versions. A Spiritual version and a Technological version. Here they are: [1] V1: Spiritual version 👇 [2] The F.S. practices magic or witchcraft or whatever and so the F.S. ends up allowing demons or spirits to possess him for each of his turns. [3] As the spirit possesses his body, the spirit controls his arm movement as the F.S. gets into a meditative state where he's not thinking about.... [4] His arm moving at all during his turn to prevent the M.R. to read his thoughts on his movements. [Final] The F.S. also prepared before this and picked a spirit who can ALSO see into the future as well. So the F.S. wins. Debate is over now. [Honest realization] I just realized mine is kinda flawed too just now tbh LOL. But I wanna know what y'all think about this first. I'm curious I'll update y'all [1] V2: The Technological version 👇 [2] This time the F.S. utilizes his Neurolink by using a clever strategy to finesse the game off of the M.R. And this is how it works... [3] Once it's the F.S.'s turn, instead of the F.S. using his raw brain to move a piece (because obviously, doing so would be vulnerable for... [4] the M.R. to read his thoughts) The F.S. instead will communicate to his Neurolink Consciously, for making the next move, but he does so in a way.. [5] where he tells it what to do, and then the Neurolink will record his thoughts, download it, and then the Neurolink will control his hands to.... [6] make his moves for him..... [7] NOW, you're probably thinking "Well that just means the M.R. can read his mind on what he's communicating to his Neurolink" and yes.... [8] you are correct. But now here's where the finesse comes in.... [9] In the Neurolink's software, there is a feature called "smart desync". What this software A.I. technology does for him, it collects his.. [10] personality and his SUBCONSCIOUS mind. So every time he communicates to his Neurolink, the M.R. will read it, yeah but, once the desync HAPPENS [11] the Neurolink will desync away from what the F.S. actually and what he originally told it to do and it will play out a RNG, shuffle up his... [12] possibilities and then play out his move each turn [13] Making the Mind Reader unable to read his mind. Case closed. [1] "Forgot to mention for #6" And just like in the previous version I made. when the "smart desync" happens. He put himself in a meditative state.. [2] Or the Neurolink does it for him. So that way he can think of no thoughts as the Neurolink plays out his moves for him
Mind-Reader can also see the future by reading Oracle's mind
Even I was thinking the same.
Sorry, can't read. :)
As a lazy mind-reader I would read Oracle's mind to see, what is the next move I am going to make. Work less, work smart :D
🤣🤣
What if Oracle does same lazy thing and plays his moves according to Mind Readers next move which he already knows ?
@@cool-aquarian Then the game had been decided at the moment of beginning and they do not play at all. Oracle just sees the result and mind-reader reads from his mind it to trust him. So they shake hands and play another one.
@@LOGICALLYYOURS Who can see the the future or oracel will win because he can see the future...before playing chess he can see that who is going to win..he know that he will win so he play the game...and ofcourse mind reader can read the mind and will try to rotate the chess board to exchange the colour..but still oracle will win as no one can change the future..am I wright??
Always a draw as oracle has analysed the game before it happened with stockfish and mind reader is Just reading best replies to those moves.
The scenario is flawed. "The future" is undefined. If the Oracle sees he has lost, he can change the course of the game, creating a new "future". There is no definite future to be seen.
Exactly what i thought
But he definitely knows what the mind reader would play for every move he plays , so after analysing and trying all possible moves and their outcomes he can choose the one with the outcome favouring his win
And he can do that all in his mind
@@anish_3.141 if he sees all futures, like some sort of super computer, and the other guy reads his mind, also knowing all futures, it's a draw. A chess game played perfectly is a draw
@@alex2005z well, it was never stated that the mind reader had the capacity to accept all that information, someone who sees a future constantly changing will accept far more information that that person whos only just reading something specific, now, if if the mind reader reads all minds around him, and maybe, isnt able to turn it off, then, in a closed room, itd go exactly as you've said
i think the oracle has been underrated. he can see the future for each move he tries, so he could just go through all of the moves and play a move where he sees himself winning, essentially having a perfect strategy. even if the oracle is a horrible player, he can still win, and the mind reader wont be able to get any insight from him since the oracle doesn't know why he'll win, just that he will.
I agree.
Yep oracle is definitely misjudged
He can see future which means he knows the next move of opponent and pick a best move to counter that move not a best move for what he expects opponent to play
There is a difference in two
Moreover if he can see future he should be seeing all of opponents best moves but in video he is just told to be given no advantage
Try playing against supercomputer with you having power of undoing as many moves as you want.
Can you then win against supercomputer?
So answer should if one is exceptional at chess he will win inspite of not having any super powers
Edit: I might be wrong!
@@prem7676it will be a draw obviously if ur undoing infinite moves then u will get to choose the best path to victory
@@prem7676 Power to undo moves is not much helpful. Supercomputer is free to play another move as per your new move after undo.
Just tell supercomputer's next 2 moves beforehand in own turn. Any person with decent chess experience can easily kill off supercomputers pieces before they can even come into any action.
Why you think, that Oracle can't change future? If he knows future, when he lost, he has ability to make another moves. Even if he can't change future, he still can analyze this game in deeper future, and use this knowledge to play optimally
This puzzle can be easily simulated in a real chess match with one additional rule for Oracle and MindReader:
1. Oracle must talk loud whatever strategy he is thinking in his mind during his or opponents turn.
2. Mind Reader has to tell Oracle his next exact move during Oracle’s turn to play, and honor that move in his next turn.
Makes sense 100% !
Really
If you have to tell them your next move before you move then they can attack your queen and easy win since you have to play the move you said
Oh and in high level games both players usually know what the other is going for, the difference is in how well they evaluate whether that works or not. It's not to common for super gms to just miss a move, although it does happen
It's not exact because Oracle might know future but he can't change it so no matter if he knows that he is even winning or losing .
Outcome will always be same for him .
But if you announced your next move before your opponents move. It allows him to change his move according to mind readers next move announcement.
If your alternate scenario happened then every time player who announced his next move before his opponants move will loose each and every single game.
Clearly, mind-reading cannot be inferior to seeing the future, since the mind-reader can read minds AND see the future in the oracle's mind. So the mind-reader essentially has both powers. If the powers are enough to change the outcome, then the mind-reader will have the advantage, or at least, not be at a disadvantage due to powers.
Nice
I think the same before watching the full vedio .
Excellent! ... That's why people who can anticipate other's moves are said to be playing "4D Chess" ... Because its the ultimate Super Power in any intelligence based games.
Language barrier would screw over the mind-reader. If the oracle thinks in another language their mind-reading skills would be useless to them; while the oracle could still be able to SEE the moves the mind-reader is about to play.
@@jessicataylor7174 ... Who says mind reading is done verbally? ... Verbal communication is a tool to help pass on meaning and information ... A mond reader would extract that information directly from the mind, without having to pass through slow filters like audio and visuals.
Oracle: sees himself losing in future.
Mind-Reader: reads oracle's blank mind, found nothing and he plays his own strat move.
Oracle: shook hands and resigned.
I agree with this possibility :D
Stockfish 14 (Oracle) : Can you possibly defeat me Human? (mind reader)
Human (Mind reader) : um... You have explored Billions of moves and you can specifically find Hidden weakness on my position that my mind can't really comprehend your plans.
The guy that sees the future doesn't actually have a super power, because he can't use it to change any outcomes ... Even if he is going to lose, he would still have to sit through the game and lose.
Mind reader can use his power to change outcomes. Meaning he can use his power to change a possible loss into a win or a draw.
And still, that's the future which Oracle already saw😉
@@dvinkster ... Yeah. Meaning seeing THE future is not an actual super power ... You can't "use" it for anything.
Not really.
Oracle can play the game move-by-move and stay ahead of Mind Readers future move/strategy. Mind Reader has to play same move which Oracle already saw.
Mind reader can try to read Oracle’s mind all he wants but he gets only one alternate turn to play a move, and Oracle already knows what move it is going to be, and can play a counter move/strategy beforehand.
In a practical game, Mind Reader will always be atleast a move or two behind Oracle because he cannot manufacture extra moves in a game to keep up with Oracle’s prior knowledge of his moves.
@@cool-aquarian ... You realize that whatever the Oracle can see, the mind reader can see too ... Meaning when mind reader is next to Oracle he actually has both super powers ... So they can both see the future.
@@wayando yes Mind Reader can see what Oracle can see, but Oracle knows the exact future moves of Mind Reader and can play counter moves beforehand, so it does not matter whatever mind reader can see, but MindReader has to play same move and cannot change his strategy/future move from what Oracle has already seen.
If Oracle is kind of Doctor Strange, then he would see every possible future, he doesn't need to calculate anything, he would just see the whole game in his mind for every possible move
And Mind Reader will read this whole calculation so he wont play the moves that leads to Mind reader losing game.
@@mehuljadav6878 mind reader only can read mind but can't read images in mind
@@brg99 and even if they could, it would be too much information to handle at once lol
@@riolu477 yeah, with great power comes great information
@@brg99 not that type of handling, but ok....
It is a curse to be able to see the future. Imagine, you are simply a witness to all the misfortunes that would happen to you , but can do little to alter it. That's why you'd be better off not knowing what the future has instore for you, but plan and be prepared for the worst.
I think seeing the future is gonna win since he could just make a move without thinking about it, so that the mind reader doesn’t know what he’s gonna do next
the person who can see the future would likely win since they can make unpredictable moves without conscious thought, making it difficult for the mind reader to anticipate their next move.
But if you don't think how u gonna win
it is senseless to have a puzzle like this!
It would also be affected by how the Oracle's power works. You are assuming he can see only one move in the future. However, if he can also detect alternative futures that depend on his actions, it would be a different calculation. As he contemplates his response to e4, he will see his opponents next move and be able to predict which response on his part would lead to the best result. Therefore, both players would consistently have drawn games between them!
I want to say thank you to you. Because of your videos, in 1st interview of my life i got every riddles common.
There are so many assumptions floating around in this puzzle.
Can the oracle change the future? The video assumes no. But that basically nullifies the oracle's power. If I play a stronger player, I know there's a 90% chance they're going to beat me. Is that a super power? What does the oracle's extra 10% certainty add?
Or if the oracle has more detailed knowledge of the future, what exactly keeps him from using it to re-try the future? If he knows (for instance) that he will be checkmated by the opponent's queen, what keeps him from forcing an exchange of queens to stop that? (Yes, there's pawn promotions, but let's say he notices that it's a natural queen)
Can the mind-reader just read surface thoughts, or does he have access to all of the other player's tactical skill? If he can only understand his candidate moves that the opponent is actively thinking of, it seems he will blunder more than his opponent will, because his opponent is probably focusing more on this own moves.
What if both of them doesn't know to play chess??????
Legend says they are still sitting there figuring out what those pieces are.
If the future that the oracle can see changes based on the mind reader's move that is based on what he "anticipates", then the mind reader is basically playing against himself. It comes down if the mind reader can draw a game with himself.
We need more uploads from this channel
Please!!
Hi Vibhum, I was away from home for a long time.... will post regularly now on
@@LOGICALLYYOURS
OMG!! This really made my day.
Thanks
@@LOGICALLYYOURS Welcome back, I hope you were away for nice reasons and it's great to have you back. I've missed your videos and all the lovely chatter in your comments section. You have built a nice community here 😊
I just started the video but he is what I think the solution is: The person that can see the future is going to win, since the fact he is playing means he will win. If he was going to loose he wouldn't play to begin with.
Another option is that he just emptys his mind except when its his turn, and only thinks in the next move (which he will have thought before the match)
First, what does it mean to see the future??
Does Oracle sees a definite future that will certainly happen and any chance of preventing that will be the cause of its happening
Or does he sees all the future outcomes of the game from a certain point in time??
I suppose in both cases, the Oracle can't hide his thoughts from the Mind-Reader, thus, the latter is more likely to win.
There is a catch-22 in there if Oracle can not change the future: what about his own moves? Mindreader's moves are reactions to Oracle's moves. If minreadets moves are pre-determined until the end of the game before the Game even starts, then so are Oracles. Which means he has no control over his own game. If Oracle can freely decide his moves and Mind-reader has to react, then - while Oracle can not read Mindreader's analysis - Oracle can deconstruct it by foreseeing the future for each of his own moves.
But could you be assuming the mind-reader is able to understand the thoughts of their opponent? It doesn't say how experienced they are at chess and the thoughts of an experienced chess player could be confusing to someone whose mind is not accustomed to the terms they use in their mind. :)
I think it will always end in a draw regardless of who is weaker/stronger of the two. The reasoning is as follows. First, I will assume that the oracle not only sees the very next move, but he can see as far into the future as the end of the game. Second, the mind-reader can read the oracle's mind, and the oracle can see into the future, so essentially, the mind-reader can also see into the future. So this game can be "simplified" as one that is being played between two oracles. Call them A and B. Suppose that B wins the game. Then both A and B can see all the steps that lead to B's victory. However, assuming that each player is playing to win, A would want to change his moves after seeing the future in which B is victorious. But if A changes his moves, then we would have a different future than the one which he saw initially. So there is a contradiction. Similar argument holds for a future in which A is victorious instead of B, leading us to a place of contradiction. Therefore, we must have a future in which neither A nor B is victorious. And hence there can only be a draw.
I agree that we end up in a contradiction. Since a draw is not in the interest of winning but, if anything, not losing, I wouldnt even say there is a solution. Unless, they find out there exists a perfect, truely uncounterable strategy that makes the one taking the first move win
Any problem that involves time travel or seeing the future is going to be swamped by paradox unless the rules for seeing the future are exhaustively specified.
If the oracle can see every moment of the future, then he can see for example that the mind reader will take his queen if he castles, which gives him the opportunity to move his queen instead of castling.
He can also see the future created by moving his queen, along with every other possible move he could make, and every subsequent response by the mind reader.
The best answer on this puzzle.. 110% agree with you.. The future won't be certain as soon as mind reader will read the mind of the other person & that's a paradox
Also, there is an anime called Code: Geass that explores this puzzle in one of its episodes. A highly strategic man plays against someone who can hear people's thoughts. The mind reader has not even acquainted himself with the rules but wins anyway by reading the opponent's biggest fears in terms of gameplay outcomes. Every chess opener has a weakness, and the mind reader knows what it is solely based on his opponent's thorough calculations.
Not the same puzzle its different
It's mind reader vs mind/thoughts manipulator
Here it's mind reader vs future seeker
@@vasudashenoy5199 ah, you're right. I should have said "similar" instead.
Oracle will win.
Reason : Since he can see the future, he would have accepted to play the match only because he knows that he will win.
If he would have lost, as he can see the future he wouldn't have come to play in the first place.
Oooh nice one, I like it! 🤩
I think I might know why the mind-reader, seeing that the oracle knows he would win, still agrees to play. Letting the oracle win a chess match is a small price to pay to be able to dig about in his mind for all the other stuff he sees in the future. Ask anything while playing and he won't be able to not think it!
There are some paradoxes connected with this puzzle which can only removed when certain things are properly defined like the concept of future.
The Oracle can read the future (the next move) which is certainly going to be played. So, he will do his best to eliminate its effect at the long run. Based on his successive actions, the future should be changed.
The question seems fundamentally flawed without defining the powers of the Oracle. The example of 1.e4 is terrible since White goes first anyways. There is no difference seeing the opponent play e4 first or knowing he will play it. The real kicker is what happens after e4. Does the Oracle know for instance that white will play 2.Nc3 no matter what? If the Oracle can see the next opponent move, and that move cannot be changed, then it becomes easy to set traps that would lead to the Oracle winning every time, at long as the Oracle has sufficient skill level. It essentially gives the Oracle 2 consecutive moves since no move can perfectly defend against every move. If the move can be changed, then the Oracle effectively has no superpower.
Either way, the question seems completely one sided depending on the details of the powers.
Chess is a questionable example for this puzzle , since it's not the depth of the calculations who's finally determine a winner ( ask stockfish). However, this clip is flawless ,logically speaking ;P
Thanks for the feedback... in fact you're right. That's why I purposely mentioned that a riddle is completely different than a real life chess game.
Doesn't this come from the Twilight books? I'm pretty sure there was something in one of them about the mind-reading vampire and the future-seeing vampire having a game of chess where they used their powers to see each other's moves. The idea that those books would come up with something that sparks intellectual debate is kind of hilarious.
This puzzle reminds of unstoppable force vs immovable object. It's really impossible to determine which is what without having a universal reference frame. If we know the universal reference frame, we could figure out the solution.
You really must have used some underdevelopped chat bot to conceive such nonsense posture of a comment.
Case may be different. He can see all sequence of moves and can follow the sequence without using any mind. Mind reading is about finding calculations based on a move. So if he calculates and plays the best move everytime then it would leads to a draw. But white has to take first move. So white can't loose
I want to consider this idea from various philosophical approaches to time to truly define what it means to "see the future", in addition to define what mind-reading is. For simplicity sake, the oracle is going to be named Rick and the mind reader will be called Reed.
For future vision: If Rick is viewing the future in a deterministic paradigm where the future will not change based on free will, then both Rick and Reed have no say in whether or not they are going to win. In this scenario, though, it wouldn't be a very interesting puzzle if that were the case. However, if Rick views the world through a paradigm which matches The Many Worlds Interpretation, then things start to get exciting. The Many Worlds Interpretation would basically imply that timelines split off at each choice, and so Rick would have full view of this timeline, if not a selective view. From here, he can see the best moves for himself and the most likely moves that Reed could possibly play.
For mind-reading: The depth at which Reed can read minds is important. Would he only read Rick's game plan, or would he also be able to see the future alongside Rick? If Reed can see the future through Rick's mind, it's possible that Reed would need some time to follow the thought process or possibly see Rick's core desires through the plethora of future timelines, if we are following The Many Worlds Interpretation. Implying that Reed will not be overwhelmed by seeing the future alongside Rick while also seeing Rick's thought process, then Reed would be able to see Rick's plan and the future, along with his own thoughts independent of Rick.
So...
If the future is deterministic, anybody could possibly win.
If the future is several branching timelines, then we should follow your example while also considering that playing via backwards induction could easily be a possibility. Though there is one final factor I forgot to mention:
Are both players each aware of the other's abilities prior to this game? If not, then Reed clearly has the advantage and will most likely win. If so, Rick can at least make less risky moves based on the presupposition that Reed will choose the best possible move. Either way, it feels like seeing the future opens the door for backwards induction here, trying to optimize each play based on optimal play from both players looking at the same diagram of options.
I feel more intelligent after reading your comment.
the mind reader would win because he would read the person that can see the future's mind, which means he knows the future that the person that can see the future is seeing
Oracle may be like Dr Stranger ,Know what's going to happen but can't change the outcome.
Well, if you see future move and the future cannot be changed, just simply move your figure so that in the next move you will beat the opponent figure. As easy as it is. Even if mind-reader knows about it, he cannot change the move (change the future) and will make a suicidal move
sounds like theres potential for a time loop
christopher nolan: did someone call me?
Please keep commenting your analysis. I will reply each answer at the earliest. Also please reply on comments if you could clarify someone's doubt. Thank you :)
The game is never played as the Oracle sees who wins and the Mind Reader sees it, too. BTW, equally skilled players don't always draw as each will probably enter multiple won or lost variations.
As always, the problem is in the formulation of the problem. While the words Oracle and Telepath seem to be intuitive, they don't really provide any specifics about how their powers work. That does not allow to draw any conclusions about the outcome of the game.
But if you theorize on coffee grounds, then ...
1) if the oracle freely looks at every second of the game and can see all possible outcomes (like a supercomputer with an unlimited resource), then after each opponent's move it can re-select the winning sequence of moves - after all, it changes with each move. Then reading thoughts will not give anything, because after each move it will be another game, which each time develops in favor of the oracle.
To simplify, then for any move of a telepath, the oracle always has a sequence of moves leading to victory. And it doesn't matter if the telepath spied this move from the opponent or played the game himself.
But, let's say that the telepath is the same supercomputer as the oracle. Then, while the seer is looking through the options, choosing the path leading to victory, the mind reader can have time to peek and choose the sequence of moves leading to the defeat of the oracle. It turns out, as if one person plays an ideal game with himself. But... the oracle uses "its own power", while the telepath tries "someone else's power", at the level of the original user - here I think to give a point to the soothsayer.
2) Let's remove all these supercomputers from our thoughts and now we will assume that the opponents' forces work within 1 move.
Then, at the moment of HIS turn, the Oracle already knows the answer of the opponent.. While the telepath, at the time of the OPPONENT's move, knows what move is expected of him. There's a paradox here.
3) The classic fantasy oracle sees the future fragmentarily. He does not control his power, but only uses small hints. Then, suppose that the predictor does not see the moves of the opponent, but only periodically can find out the outcome of the game. Here in this option the logic of the author of the video works perfectly. And all the bonuses go to the Telepath.
We get the following result: the outcome of the game largely depends on how the oracle's power works, as well as how well he himself can use it. Then stronger the oracle is, the less useful the Telepath is and vice versa.
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I am filled with joy after reading your comment. That's the best outcome of my efforts I could see in your comment. All the very best for all your future endeavors.
I think the mind-reader would not be unbeatable: if both him and his opponent fail to see a tactic before he makes his move, but his opponent sees it after he makes his move, he would get a losing position and lose the game if his opponent doesn't blunder.
The oracle however would be unbeatable: he would see all the future positions, and calculate until the end of the game.
The mind-reader could then read the oracle's mind to play perfectly as well, and so the game would always be a draw.
Your conception of the oracle is different though: if he can only see the future, but not change it, that means he can only see the future AFTER he makes his move, and so his ability is essentially useless. In that case, any result is possible.
I don’t agree with explanation. Assuming that both Mind Reader and Oracle are equally good at the game without superpowers,
Oracle can get upper hand and win or draw easily everytime by following simple strategy:
1. Do not form any specific strategy of his own. Keep a blank mind to play based on Mind Readers next few future moves.
2. Play the game move-by-move and stay ahead of opponents future move/strategy. Mind Reader has to play same move which Oracle already saw.
Mind reader can try to read Oracle’s mind all he wants but he gets only one alternate turn to play a move, and Oracle already knows what move it is going to be, and can play a counter move/strategy beforehand.
In a practical game, Mind Reader will always be atleast a move or two behind Oracle because he cannot manufacture extra moves in a game to keep up with Oracle’s prior knowledge of his moves.
The oracle knows which move the mind reader will make and if he changes he is not a fortune teller. The confusing part here is when I read the fortune teller seeing me move a pawn what happens if I try to move a knight? It should not be possible. I move the pawn, realise I have no free will, flip the table and run. We both knew this would happen.
One Power of Oracle(See Future) person is not considered here. Oracle know the Future of Opponent move- means 1)"The Future will change according to each Oracle move-which also is known by Oracle", 2)"Oracle knows the future means Oracle is indirectly mind reading the opponent next move". So Conclusion- Oracle knows all the Opponent move as like mind reader+Oracle can change the future by His moves=Oracle has the power of Mind reader+Future changer. So there will be no defeat for Oracle- it will be either Win or Draw match.
He can see the future but cannot change the future.. But
He can read the mind, so he can make changes..
This relies on the fact that the future is not changed by looking at it, or that the future does not take into account your future vision.
Please upload regularly 🙂✌️
Yes bhai, I'll definitely do it :)
The person who can see future he can change it also so ofcourse he will win as he can check his every move and mind will tell the future of each move....
The mind-reader would lose by disqualification for moving a pawn diagonally onto an empty field.
Everytime the foresight user tries to imagine another future where they could win mind reader will also see it and come up with a strategy to counter that until the only future left is for the foresight user is to lose or draw
edit: but in most other situations besides chess seeing the future has a better advantage granted you can change it as you can't change what your opponent chooses to play in chess but you can avoid getting in an accident if you know where, when and how it happens
Technically, the future is not the future if you can change it ... So, the player who can see the future can see it, but he can't do anything about it ... He just has to experience it as it comes, even though he already knows.
If he saw a lose, he would cry over it ... But nothing cab be done ... It's already a lose written in the future.
@@wayando that explanation does makes it more clear, nice.
Long before the game the oracle has allready seen all the possible futures.
He knows he will face down a mind-reader and which strategies would fail and which would work against him.
If the one who sees the future has the intention of playing randomly and sees that he will win with this strategy (no info how far in the future he can see), the he won't think of any move and, no matter how strong he is, the mind reader won't have the possibility to read anything. But that's not a matter, he would lose anyway since it's written in the future.
*As you said Oracle can't do anything with his superpower but he can do a lot. If he know that the opponent is going to play E4 in future then he would play the best possible move against it. In every chance he has the upper hand as he knows what to do to destroy the next person already. Also,he knows the final outcome of the match,so if he will lose in future then he'll avoid any mistakes that will make loose.*
*But,the above case itself arises a paradox that how come by any chance there can be two future - the first in which he lost and the second in which he won.*
It actually forms a loop. Mindreader will be able to read Oracle. But oracle can sense what the mind reader is going to play. If mind reader knows what he is going to play then he will need to change his move which will allow oracle to know his move again.
If the game is played then both of them will know who is going to win. If oracle knows future then mind reader will also know the future. It all depends on who can calculate better.
Sometimes in chess even if you know what your opponent is going to play still you might loose. For example play against chess engine. Know all the lines it is going to play and still u loose.
I'm sorry but there is one problem in your analysis. The Oracle can change the future otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. Imagine he sees the opponent will play queen f6 for example and he is preparing for that with a pawn. Than the Mind-reader would clearly not play queen f6. Taking that in consideration the game will always end in an draw cause the Oracle will see every single outcome in the game so he will not make any mistake. With the Mind-reader knowing everything too it can only be a draw. Except it depends on the colour who will win when every Player plays a perfect game with every Option in mind. I think white will always have an advantage for the win.
I disagree wholehearteldy.
First, assumptions:
Mind Reader (MR) Future Seer (FS)
I am presuming FS sees possible outcomes of the future, based on a PROBABILITY of them occurring. Otherwise, it is meaningless. Any other way, then the MR can simply NOT play the move he knows the FS has seen him play. It must be probablity of play, otherwise you have a paradox.
With these assumptions, the FS will contantly have his probabilities updated as the MR reads his thoughts and inserts his own calculation. Therefore the FS will gain, through the updating of probable states, the insight of the MR. The FS will also have his "miscalculation" corrected by the rise of probable futures that he considered were bad. There is an information loop here, where what the MR knows and FS knows gets constantly updated, which in turn, updates the probable states of the future. However....
The FS will have the advantage, since the FS, say he looks 3 moves in advance, and sees a variety of board states. His knowledge might look like
1. FS
2. MR
3. FS
Where 1 move is made by FS, a response by MR, and a response by FS. On his turn, the FS gains information on 3 moves in advance, and has the feedback loop mentioned in the assumptions to adjust the strength of the position from the updating probabilies of the MR's influence on his thoughts.
After the FS makes a move, the FS can simply stop thinking. Therefore, the MR is only given knowledge of
2. MR
3. FS
He only gets super knowledge of 2 ply.
Conversely, after the MR has moved, the FS turns his power on again, and gains knowledge of
3. FS
4. MR
5. FS
Therefore, the FS is always having the advantage of one more ply. In other words, in your min/max tree, the FS controls the power on his move, which is one ply less than the information the MR has on his move. The FS's power works independent of the MR. The MR's power is dependent upon the FS. Therefore, the control of information is soley in the FS's hands (mind).
Other neat little trick.
The futrue seer can presumably see what opening will be played the day before, allowing him to prepare only the lines of refutation, and none else, therefore giving the FS an information advantage.
Steve.. I truly appreciate your efforts and the time you spent for writing the comment. I am yet to read it thoroughly but I’m replying based on your first paragraph. FS don’t have multiple possible outcomes to choose from. He could only see only one outcome and that is eternal.
So, from the FS perspective, you must consider right from the first move. Consider MR played a move, now FS has to make his move. FS can see that he himself is going to play a specific move (example d5), but where this move is coming from? It’s coming from his own knowledge. So he must play it since it’s future. Did FS make a good move from the MR perspective?? FS can’t say that coz he can’t read mind. So, FS has to play his natural game… it’s just that he can see in advance what is going to appear on the board.
@@LOGICALLYYOURS then you have a paradox. MR (or FS) can see the one future and not do it.
When the future is seen, if he tries to grab a different piece, is his hand magically forced to move the piece for the future he has seen?
The oracle will always win
in at least 7 moves as long as the oracle only looks at the future of the mindreader's captured pieces
Explanation:
In order for future reading to become a genuine future reading ability, the future should not change. A true future reading will lock you into the future regardless of your actiona. If the oracle sees the future, he locks both himself and the opponent to that future.
If the oracle looks at the future states of the chessboard, the oracle will lock both himself and the mindreader on that path.
Rather, the oracle should only look at the future of the mindreader's pieces on the captured area and never on the chess board. This will lock the mindreader's pieces to be captured while the oracle can focus on taking out pieces he hasn't seen yet in the boars.
At best, the oracle can do this at every turn, look at the future of captured pieces then capture something else.
The only thing the mindreader will see are his captured pieces and the oracle's strategy. Regardless what the mindreader does, he is locked into a future where his pieces will be captured, while the oracle's pieces are not locked to any future at all.
At the oracle's 7th turn, the oracle is guaranteed that 14 of the mindreader's piece will be captured.
This means, the oracle should view the futures of the captured special pieces first and take out pawns. That way, only the mindreader's king and 1 pawn will remain at the oracle's 14th turn.
I think somehow both will be at a same level, because if mind reader can read mind to perform a move, a oracle is also aware of the move going to happen so may it is not possible to change future but it is possible to change the present which will definitely change something in future...
the guy who sees the future can change it by watching the whole game and find out his mistake and play another one
then the mind reader can read that and change his game
so it's infinity loop of thinking between them so either one of them will lose because time out while he was thinking or they will play last move he thought about before the time runs out
in this case at the end of the game there will be few possibilities and the game ends with draw
The oracle would win. Since he can see the future, he would likely become aware that he is playing someone who can read minds. Therefore, he can come up with a game plan to confuse the mind reader by thinking about multiple moves all at once and deciding how to move from there. Additionally, just because the mind reader can read minds does not mean that he knows how to play chess. Also, Oracle would have already played the game since he can already see it and change the game if he sees a future where he loses. He has the power of hindsight which the mind reader would not.
he cant come up with a game plan or the mind reader will now 😂
I agree with Spike’s comment.. if the Oracle makes any such plans to confuse MR, the MR would already know it. Also, I have covered all possible cases based on the real chess knowledge of the two players.
@@LOGICALLYYOURS well I look at it like this, if oracle sees every move that got him the lost, he can practice another opening and see what the future looks like there. He can also practice said movement to the point where it becomes more so muscle memory rather than him having to think about his moves. For example: both spike and logically drive to their mothers house every day. While you’re driving, you don’t think about how to get to your mom. In fact the only time you really think about how to get to your mom is when you’re making a turn. Driving to your mother basically has become muscle memory. I play chess and use the Vienna opening every single time. No need to think, just move. Because you can memorize a line to the point of it becoming muscle memory, I think oracle can outsmart the mind reader at that point.
Depends on how the powers work. Let’s say that the Oracle will see every possible future and their are no limits. The mind reader will be able to “read” the Oracles mind even if there’s a language barrier and their are no limits. Then it will always be a draw. The mind reader will know every possible game just like the Oracle. Resulting in perfect chess. Which always ends in a draw. The mind reader and the Oracle both know every possible outcome and they will both know what the following moves are that the opponent plays for the rest of the game. It’s basically putting Stockfish 15.1 against Stockfish 15.1 which almost always ends in a draw. Sometimes it’s a win for either side because of the speed at which their playing combined with the color of each player. Out of a 1000 games I’d say like 996 would be draws and 2 wins for the mind reader and 2 wins for the Oracle.
You forgot about evaluation part. Each player evaluates the position differently, so depth doesn't matter too much.
Also the Oracle seeing his own future moves, so it can't change his strength.
If the mind-reader can never do worse than a draw, then the oracle will never see himself winning. In the words of that well-known film "The only winning move is not to play".
Not to mention mind reader can read mind so anyways he can see his own future scenes going on in oracle's mind.
situation 4 for the mind reader: same depth, different candidates.
in this case, the mind reader and the other player are about equally strong, but they make different candidates. in this situation, the mind reader would merge their and the other's predictions, to make for a stronger chart.
(you forgot about this one!!!! (and the several other scenarios where they think different about their candidate moves.))
It is always a draw, the Oracle can just play moves that lead to draws or wins, and the mind reader having access to the same information will play only responses that lead to draws, the key is that when you can see the future then you can pick the perfect moves... But if he can't change the possible outcomes he is able to see, the question is kinda pointless because the game will be already determined from the beginning and the mind reader will know the result as well.
Since the game of chess has not been solved in a game theory sense, it is not known whether White or Black can force a win or whether White or Black can force a draw, just that one of these 4 possibilities must be the case. Suppose White can force a win, then it does not matter which power one has, it only matters who has the White pieces. And similar for the other 3 cases.
Wait...if Oracle is seeing the future than he can simply see what moves win him the game.
The Oracle will not only see the next move, he will see the final winning move, so he will always win if he played, otherwise if the end game he see he will lose he should not play from the beginning
I jumped to the solution. If a mind reader played Magnus Carlsen and the mind reader is a 1000 elo player (or any substantially weaker chess player) that person will be expected to lose obviously. Even if you could read minds, you'd have to understand the lines you were reading in Magnus's brain and then assess the position at the end of those lines to know which moves you should play in response to Magnus's planned moves. Otherwise you'll just pick one of the moves Magnus worked through in deciding how to move and since you're not good at chess chances you're not going to pick the same move a super GM would pick and thus you'll lose, almost all of the time. If you assume Magnus always thinks about the best move for his opponent then you'll have a better chance to draw but I'm not sure why you'd assume that your opponent, Magnus in my example, will always be thinking that such and such move is the optimal move for his opponent. Perhaps sometimes he does, but often I'm guessing he's assessing several possibilities and positions aren't perfectly clear and multiple moves might seemingly have some merit. In sum, I don't think this is a good logic problem, although it still might be fun to debate.
The mind-reader would lose because oracle would get very scared of the creepy mind reader and stab him to death.
My thought of this is that the mind reader wins because they read the mind of the oracle so they know what happens in the future and can neutralize it before it happens rendering the Oracle useless and so it’s the same as a mind reader playing a normal person
A person who can see the future but cannot act in the present based on what he sees is a logical contradiction. In the process of looking into the future, his process affects what he thinks in the present. Therefore the 'future' changes the present and thus changes the future in an infinite regression. It makes no difference if he is playing chess or doing anything else.
If the person can see the future in the sense of, 'if this happens then this will happen', and then he can change the 'if' part, he should be able to predict the consequences of any and all actions depending on how far he could see into the future. He would then be capable of seeing every chess game that could happen and just follow a winning one. He would be like an infinite supercomputer that could always take the course of a forced mate even from its first move.
Only oracle wins . He knows the next step . He will adjust accordingly even if he is not expert in playing. Because mind reader may read his mind but cannot change accordingly as it will change the definition of future seeing.
Person A- Mind reading
Person B - See the future
First we have to identify if it make sense that the future can or cannot be changed.
Person B: Looks into the future quickly and sees who wins. If he wins, he won't look into the future. If he loses, he basically gives up. That is if we assume that the future can be changed. Because if he gives up, then he can change the future.
If person B sees the future and whatever he sees means that he has to perform the action. That will bring him a different mode of thought, and might change the future. That is if Person B cannot change the future.
So, if we assume that the future can change, then the mind reader will win because everything that Person B can see can be nullified by the mind reader. The mind reader can see what Person B sees but Person B cannot see what the mind reader see in his mind.
The best thing to do to increase the chances of winning is for Person B not to use his powers. But, Person B will still think. So he would lose. While Person B is thinking for his move, Person A can analyze the way of thinking, Person B has. Therefore, he knows Person B's goal for his moves. Once Person A understand Person B's goal, then he can use that to his advantage. He does not need to know which move Person B will do, he only needs his intention why Person B moves in such a way. And he can use that to win. If ever Person B uses his power, since chess games are long, Person A can think for his moves while he frequently sees if Person B is looking at the future. If he does, then he can nullify that. And he can identify whether or not Person B is just thinking or actually looking into the future because if he is just thinking attempting to deceive Person A, Person B will know because visualizing positions is obscure and if ever Person B do that, it will affect his performance, so he won't. Person A can win the game. under such conditions.
Whatever Person B sees Person A can see and nullify, and whatever Person A can read or see, Person B cannot. Person A can use Person B's power for his own advantage. That is, again, if the future can be changed. IF it does, Person B cannot trust what he sees, leaving his power useless.
But, if the future can't be changed. They would be obligated to play and we will not know who will win. Because, if Person B sees himself winning and Person A sees it as well, then whatever Person A does is futile. But, if Person B sees himself losing, Person A will inevitably win. It means that we do not have the ability to know who wins in such condition. Because, all forms of strategy is useless if the future can't change.
But, the possibilities change depending on the conditions.
The future seeing guy will see in the starting of the game that who is going to win. And yaa thats the answer. Because future is definite and no one can change it whether the guy is having any super natural powers or not . Actually after that it does not matter.
The depth of analysis is not independant of the persons power, if the oracle has the ability to see possible futures, they effectively have infinite depth of analysis.
If we instead assume the future is fixed then the mind readers ability are functionally useless since the oracle will have all of his move preplanned and therefore will not think about the game while playing so their will be no depth for the mindreader to mindread.
"The Mind-reader can draw a game against a stronger Oracle."
Can he though? At some point, you're going to run into a situation where, ideal play assumed, victory is inevitable. If the Oracle can reach that point before the Mind-reader can avoid that scenario, the Oracle wins.
Now, theoretically, there is a way for someone to guarantee a win right from the starting move, but that's beyond the capabilities of both man and machine.
_But not future-sight._ Any turn, he can check the future from any given move, and see if he wins from it.
Therefore, if Oracle is White, he wins.
If he's Black, then he just needs to wait for Mind-reader to make a mistake, _any_ mistake, and then Oracle wins again.
In chess, the player thinks of future possible conditions... Each move has to be played by keeping in mind the next possible move... So chess is already a game of future which the mind reader can already analyse if he is strong player plus if he can read the mind of oracle he is also well known to the future which the oracle analysis... So I guess there is higher chance of winning of the mind reader
My take:
I don't think the Oracle's power should work by seeing one move into the future. It should be seeing the entire game play out like they hadn't seen the future. They would play their best game in that future, and if that game wasn't good enough, they would change their game plan and play better. Then if that wasn't good enough yet, they can simply change it again. Through this process, the Oracle will see every possibility until they settle on either a win or a draw. They are effectively a better chess engine, being able to see with absolute certainty what their opponent plays. That is, against normal opponents.
The Mind-reader would get all of this information too. So, more concretely, this is a battle between two Oracles. If the future the Mind-reader sees through the Oracle's eyes is to their dissatisfaction, they can change their game plan all the same. The thing is that the Oracle doesn't need to calculate a thing. They can just see what they would have calculated to get all the answers immediately. So the only thing that the Mind-reader can see is what would happen, and try to change it just like the Oracle. This either goes on until a very odd game is played by the players because of their tug back and forth under time pressure, or until they settle on a draw and don't play their first moves.
How can the oracle see the not-written-yet future? The opponent, whoever he is, will select his move according to the move played by the oracle and before that move is made, there is no future to be seen. The only future related to the chess game that the oracle can definitely see is, for example, an earthquake will occur in the middle of the chess game and the game will be interrupted. Then he can offer a draw and both can run for their lives.
Originally Answered: If 2 people are playing chess and one is a mind reader but the other can see into the future, who would win and why? The one who reads the mind wins, is enough for him to imitate the game that the man who sees in the future sees, and then screw him after.
One doubt...if Oracle can't change the future...he can kill opponent pieces easily by putting counter attack to opponent future moves... according to video ...mind reader plays that move only ...loose his pieces ...even it is silly he should sacrifice all his pieces to Oracle...I think this is possible
1. the mind reader would only have his opponents calculation depth -1 so he would still lose against a stronger player.
2. the oracle would have a much easier time calculating because they only need to focus on 1 of the possible lines rather than all of them. also while its the opponents turn he can be thinking about the next position rather than all possible next positions.
Seeing the future cannot guarantee any victory, because you could just see yourself losing and can't change anything about it.
As considering myself as mind reader I will check his mind every move and win the game. Let him check the future.
If the Oracle could see POSSIBLE futures (like Dr. Strange in Infinity War) then that could be pretty useful. He could foresee how his opponent would fare against various openings and gambits, then play the one his opponent is least prepared for.
Bro why such a long gap
Sorry bro... it was due to some unavoidable journeys... I'll now post videos timely.
Okay bro 🔥
Wait is over now ✨
Is this a game between Edward and Alice Cullen?😂
If the future can't be changed then are we just watching any chess replay not a real time match
The oracle can see the future and mind reader can read his mind when he is seeing future
Then probably mind-reader will win
Its all about skills honestly. But i think future is better. He know beforehand that what move the mind reader will use and can perform a move that can encounter it (if he knows how) and the future is absolute so even though the mind reader can encounter the oracle attacks the future will remain the same. (Honestly seeing future is very confusing ability ngl)
If he's next to the oracle, then the mind reader can also see the future.
haha.. Believe it or not, but watching these videos has improved my mathematics and reasoning in SSC CGL preparation.
in normal ches you can predict the future using the positions in the board, in practical terms is like you can see the future/see the movements of your opponents without any super power, so, if both player play the perfect game, the player who plays with the whites has a little advantage, and in the most cases, in a perfect game, the whites win, for a little margin.
If I'm the Oracle and i see world is going to end tomorrow it will end tomorrow, no mind reader can stop that, that is why the chance of winning by jajment of moves:-
If Oracle see every move has been played in the way that he loses, he still going to be in losing side
And if he sees that he is going to win, the mind reader can't change the pattern that he moves the chess pieces because it will change future (but you can not change future how hard you try).
So chances of Oracle seeing future as win, lost,drow are:- 33%
Same outcome but a different "analysis"
I just thought that it would be the same from the oracle POV if I was announcing every move before I did.
As you clearly explained, chess is played choosing from different choices in a step-by-step process, move and reaction, so it would be similar to just announcing the move.
(This is copied and pasted from a TikTok comment section I posted. That's why it's numbered like that)
I got two versions. A Spiritual version and a Technological version. Here they are:
[1] V1: Spiritual version 👇
[2] The F.S. practices magic or witchcraft or whatever and so the F.S. ends up allowing demons or spirits to possess him for each of his turns.
[3] As the spirit possesses his body, the spirit controls his arm movement as the F.S. gets into a meditative state where he's not thinking about....
[4] His arm moving at all during his turn to prevent the M.R. to read his thoughts on his movements.
[Final] The F.S. also prepared before this and picked a spirit who can ALSO see into the future as well. So the F.S. wins. Debate is over now.
[Honest realization] I just realized mine is kinda flawed too just now tbh LOL. But I wanna know what y'all think about this first. I'm curious
I'll update y'all
[1] V2: The Technological version 👇
[2] This time the F.S. utilizes his Neurolink by using a clever strategy to finesse the game off of the M.R. And this is how it works...
[3] Once it's the F.S.'s turn, instead of the F.S. using his raw brain to move a piece (because obviously, doing so would be vulnerable for...
[4] the M.R. to read his thoughts) The F.S. instead will communicate to his Neurolink Consciously, for making the next move, but he does so in a way..
[5] where he tells it what to do, and then the Neurolink will record his thoughts, download it, and then the Neurolink will control his hands to....
[6] make his moves for him.....
[7] NOW, you're probably thinking "Well that just means the M.R. can read his mind on what he's communicating to his Neurolink" and yes....
[8] you are correct. But now here's where the finesse comes in....
[9] In the Neurolink's software, there is a feature called "smart desync". What this software A.I. technology does for him, it collects his..
[10] personality and his SUBCONSCIOUS mind. So every time he communicates to his Neurolink, the M.R. will read it, yeah but, once the desync HAPPENS
[11] the Neurolink will desync away from what the F.S. actually and what he originally told it to do and it will play out a RNG, shuffle up his...
[12] possibilities and then play out his move each turn
[13] Making the Mind Reader unable to read his mind. Case closed.
[1] "Forgot to mention for #6" And just like in the previous version I made. when the "smart desync" happens. He put himself in a meditative state..
[2] Or the Neurolink does it for him. So that way he can think of no thoughts as the Neurolink plays out his moves for him