Ah, anything Tzimisce related is always great - narrated by you, with all the work you put into your videos and your love for the best of all the clans, that I wholeheartedly share, it is pure gold.
Yeeey! I'm so glad you enjoyed! And here I thought I was going to bore people by continuing the lore-hunt 😝 Well, I'm pretty much down to the Gehenna book. It's the last one left, and this time, the conclusion won't disappoint 😁(hopefully!)
Man, the Revised clanbook is absolutely near the top of my to-buy list. So much cool stuff! I do wonder about the Dracon influencing Zelios, though, since he was kind of... fused with Myca/Sascha Vykos at that point. I wonder if he was acting through Sascha, sending instructions without saying who they were coming from, something like that? The epilogue of the Dark Ages Tzimisce novel does suggest that the Dracon can take control when he wants (when he threatens Velya).
Hey! Glad you watched and (hopefully) enjoyed the episode. I thought about the same thing, and thought the timeline is a bit weird, so I did some quick timeline check. The events of the Dark Ages Clan novel begin in 1210?, I think, a little into the 13th century, and the events of Transylvania Chronicles begin shortly after that... 🤔 (hopefully I'm remembering correctly). With Zelios being embraced in 1020 AD, it makes sense the Dracon (either itself, or some of its servants) had time to influence Zelios subtly, since the Dracon left Constantinople... around 880? I think I'm remembering right 🤞 I also thought the timeline is a bit strange, but it seems to make sense 🥰 EDIT: Also, with Gesu being embraced around 700 CE, it makes sense the Dracon already had a "bone" to pick with the Carpathian Tzimisce by the time Zelios is on the scene 😁 EDIT 2: Ok, I had time to do a more thorough check. Transylvania Chronicles begins in 1197, but Zelios enlists help with finishing the binding sometime after 1300. Until he actually completes the binding, he travels the world to learn his craft. He could have been influenced by the Dracon in quite a variety of ways during that time, even if the Dracon had eventually taken... another's shape, shall we say. It's interesting because Zelios doesn't really realize what he's doing. As soon as he finds out about Kupala he goes something like: "huh, it seems I have instinctively working towards binding this entity", but he doesn't actually know why he's doing any of this, or who might've pushed him into this course of action. Judging by what we've read in other books, I can totally see the Dracon patiently taking a few centuries to influence Zelios from the shadows, using any means necessary 😁
@@theoldcountry yeah, the Deacon just playing the long game. When you're as old as him, you can afford to take a few centuries to subtly push someone towards your needs! Interestingly, in BJD, even after Sascha is freed from the Dracon's influence, they're still working against Kupala. In The Drowning of Rasputin, they were looking for the Telyavic Tremere specifically because their experiences could help with stopping it.
@@ryttu3k was there not something about not all dracon was burn away like some piece survive also could dracon do something eldest did and grow back in womb of another timzice?
@@theoldcountry question after Kupla thing could you do something similar for tremere or some thing about lore of tremere I know it easier to find lore about them in 5edition just wondering?
@@jamesisaacson6379 Oh yeah, the Dracon is definitely still around. When he was meant to be influencing Zelios, though, he was already bound to Myca, so he would have had to be acting through them. BJD implies that he's now recovering with Michael (who still exists within Mary - there's a lot of Weird Body Stuff going on!).
Excellent as always. We enjoy the uncovering of this lore. I read that Demons can eat each others souls for power, and there were hints that humans could replicate the effect. Do they have any hard rules for it, or is it left to the ST?
Good question! When you say humans could replicate the effects do you mean against other humans, or against demons? If there are rules for this, they don't come to mind, sadly 😔but I will look into it! In other news, you'll be happy to know I'm really trying to find the time to write a little something on the Sabbat 😉 Not sure how long it's going to take, but your previous comment really reignited my passion for that Sect. Mwhahahaha!
I wonder why the Eldest left its lands to come to the Second City though? The impression I have always gotten from the Eldest is that it was indifferent to the schemes and power plays other antediluvians, with its one and only concern being its own evolution. So I find it a bit strange that the Eldest would even want to visit the Second City when the main reason why he left the First City was due to the stagnation and lack of potential to grow among the Second and Third gen cainites and I don't really see how slaying the Second gen would help the eldest achieve its goals.
It was probably summoned by Caine for reasons unknown to it at that time (to be cursed along with its brothers and sisters). Otherwise, I really can't think of any good reason why it would go to the Second City 🤔 That's just it, the Eldest didn't partake in the slaying of the 2nd gen, but it was cursed all the same...
@@smuggrog9821 🤣Oh wow, I'm imagining the 3rd generation as 8th graders now: Toreador making sure its hair looks ok using phone camera, then writes some cheesy poem on the back of a notebook. Ventrue being the leader of a mischievous little gang of pupils and taking others' lunch money, hoping to become the richest kid in school. Nosferatu wearing the same clothes it had on for weeks, wiping snot under the desk when no one is looking, keeping tabs on everyone. Gangrel saved a puppy today and you can hear occasional joyful barks from inside its backpack. etc. etc. Then, angry teacher Mr. Caine is like: Why is no one paying attention to me? That's it, quiz time! 🤣 But on a more serious note, I really think Tzimisce was cursed precisely for its lack of involvement in anything tied to the little "family" Caine had created. Even when the Second generation were murdered, the Eldest didn't care. At that time, it was probably too busy shooing and frightening the other Clans away from its beloved lands, which is why Caine was like: "Really? Those stupid lands are all you care about? More than your Sire? More than me? Very well, then I'll make sure you find no rest anywhere else. You can stay in your little nest until the end of time. We'll see how well your transcendence goes when you're bound to a piece of land." And it makes sense the Tzimisce tradition of hospitality became a thing right after this, since the Eldest's lack of hospitality towards its brothers and sisters is something that contributed to it being cursed. It was probably its way of showing Caine: "Fine, you're the boss, grandpa! You want me to be hospitable. Sure, I can do that, but don't ask me to actually care about my dead father or my brothers and sisters, because I won't." EDIT: grammar and such
@@theoldcountry That makes a lot of sense and I can definitely see Caine cursing the Eldest due to its indifference to the fate of its sire, its brood mates and Cain himself. Plus when you look at the Eldest covetous nature and how it treated the other clans that entered its land, I can see why Cain would have a problem. I also love the idea that the Tzimisce hospitality originated as a way for the Eldest to appease Cain and be "kinder" to his fellow cainites.
@The Old Country so first wow the ideal that everyone in Sabbat is just one body/vessel for eldest is crazy make me wonder what eldest is use Sabbat for also you should also looking to and include small information on eldest In 5 edition I know it not necessarily about kupala but because I think eldest and him are so import/connect it would interest know what happen with him in 5 edition you could just add to next video or it own video witch ever you want?
Yay another one! Quick question: how do you deal with demons changing bodies? Do you know any good solutions how to resolve the changes coming with new hosts mechanicaly?
Hey! Changing bodies is a situation I've not had in my Demon games so far. I'll check the books, do some research, and get back to you on this one, ok? I can think of a few systems, but maybe they were already made in the official supplements 🤔
@@jackmalin2528 Ok, this took a while 😋 Thank you for the patience. The CBR just says: work it out with your storyteller, but looking at descriptions of Lores like the Lore of Spirit, or the book Earthbound, we can see some ideas coming together: it is suggested to keep most stats intact, except for the physicals (strength, dex, sta, and maybe appearance?), and if the storyteller wants to change the other stats as well, the new character will have the previously gained xp of the old one, to spend on getting this new host to the same "power level". No xp is lost, and that's pretty nice 😁 Some new memories are also gained, because of the new host, but the degree to which this alters the personality is anyone's guess. However, the old memories aren't lost in any substantial way. What seems to be very clear is that the torment rating remains! The shock of coming into human flesh and forgetting your past agony (at least for a while) only happens once. Just like the Earthbound cannot be rid of their torment by possessing a human host, so too are most fallen unable to truly bond with subsequent hosts beyond the first. This is pretty much how I'd go about it. The game books do say, for the most part: make your own rules and have fun 😋
@@theoldcountry Thank you. I think ill make it so demon adjusts the new host atributes within a month to his comfort zone, split the backgrounds for human and demon part and call it a day.
@@jackmalin2528 Sounds very good! Oh, forgot about backgrounds 😋 It makes sense that with new papers and a new identity, social backgrounds, and maybe even financial backgrounds, like allies, contacts, followers, resources, influence etc. would also be lost, gaining the backgrounds of the new host in their stead 👍(whether the new host has more or less)
Ah, anything Tzimisce related is always great - narrated by you, with all the work you put into your videos and your love for the best of all the clans, that I wholeheartedly share, it is pure gold.
Yeeey! I'm so glad you enjoyed! And here I thought I was going to bore people by continuing the lore-hunt 😝
Well, I'm pretty much down to the Gehenna book. It's the last one left, and this time, the conclusion won't disappoint 😁(hopefully!)
Nice another video!!! Can't wait for another demon the fallen lore tho
It's coming 😁 I'm doing another set of Lores in reverse order. Lore of the Spirit is next, then Lore of the Wild and so on 🤘
@@theoldcountry Video about Ballai (denologic vampires) would be great and compare how can they see fallen and how can interact with them
Man, the Revised clanbook is absolutely near the top of my to-buy list. So much cool stuff!
I do wonder about the Dracon influencing Zelios, though, since he was kind of... fused with Myca/Sascha Vykos at that point. I wonder if he was acting through Sascha, sending instructions without saying who they were coming from, something like that? The epilogue of the Dark Ages Tzimisce novel does suggest that the Dracon can take control when he wants (when he threatens Velya).
Hey! Glad you watched and (hopefully) enjoyed the episode.
I thought about the same thing, and thought the timeline is a bit weird, so I did some quick timeline check. The events of the Dark Ages Clan novel begin in 1210?, I think, a little into the 13th century, and the events of Transylvania Chronicles begin shortly after that... 🤔 (hopefully I'm remembering correctly).
With Zelios being embraced in 1020 AD, it makes sense the Dracon (either itself, or some of its servants) had time to influence Zelios subtly, since the Dracon left Constantinople... around 880? I think I'm remembering right 🤞
I also thought the timeline is a bit strange, but it seems to make sense 🥰
EDIT: Also, with Gesu being embraced around 700 CE, it makes sense the Dracon already had a "bone" to pick with the Carpathian Tzimisce by the time Zelios is on the scene 😁
EDIT 2: Ok, I had time to do a more thorough check. Transylvania Chronicles begins in 1197, but Zelios enlists help with finishing the binding sometime after 1300. Until he actually completes the binding, he travels the world to learn his craft. He could have been influenced by the Dracon in quite a variety of ways during that time, even if the Dracon had eventually taken... another's shape, shall we say.
It's interesting because Zelios doesn't really realize what he's doing. As soon as he finds out about Kupala he goes something like: "huh, it seems I have instinctively working towards binding this entity", but he doesn't actually know why he's doing any of this, or who might've pushed him into this course of action. Judging by what we've read in other books, I can totally see the Dracon patiently taking a few centuries to influence Zelios from the shadows, using any means necessary 😁
@@theoldcountry yeah, the Deacon just playing the long game. When you're as old as him, you can afford to take a few centuries to subtly push someone towards your needs!
Interestingly, in BJD, even after Sascha is freed from the Dracon's influence, they're still working against Kupala. In The Drowning of Rasputin, they were looking for the Telyavic Tremere specifically because their experiences could help with stopping it.
@@ryttu3k was there not something about not all dracon was burn away like some piece survive also could dracon do something eldest did and grow back in womb of another timzice?
@@theoldcountry question after Kupla thing could you do something similar for tremere or some thing about lore of tremere I know it easier to find lore about them in 5edition just wondering?
@@jamesisaacson6379 Oh yeah, the Dracon is definitely still around. When he was meant to be influencing Zelios, though, he was already bound to Myca, so he would have had to be acting through them. BJD implies that he's now recovering with Michael (who still exists within Mary - there's a lot of Weird Body Stuff going on!).
Excellent as always. We enjoy the uncovering of this lore. I read that Demons can eat each others souls for power, and there were hints that humans could replicate the effect. Do they have any hard rules for it, or is it left to the ST?
Good question! When you say humans could replicate the effects do you mean against other humans, or against demons?
If there are rules for this, they don't come to mind, sadly 😔but I will look into it!
In other news, you'll be happy to know I'm really trying to find the time to write a little something on the Sabbat 😉
Not sure how long it's going to take, but your previous comment really reignited my passion for that Sect. Mwhahahaha!
Hi! Just wanted to say your channel is really cool, and I've loved the demon content especially since I managed to get a chance to play a Malefactor
Yeeeey! I'm very happy to hear that 🥰
Hope your Demon game is a blast! Mmmmm, Malefactors 😋
You made five of these you utter Mad Men God bless you
@@mrmackie-qp6lr 😆🥰 Blessing received! Thank you so much 😁
I wonder why the Eldest left its lands to come to the Second City though? The impression I have always gotten from the Eldest is that it was indifferent to the schemes and power plays other antediluvians, with its one and only concern being its own evolution. So I find it a bit strange that the Eldest would even want to visit the Second City when the main reason why he left the First City was due to the stagnation and lack of potential to grow among the Second and Third gen cainites and I don't really see how slaying the Second gen would help the eldest achieve its goals.
It was probably summoned by Caine for reasons unknown to it at that time (to be cursed along with its brothers and sisters). Otherwise, I really can't think of any good reason why it would go to the Second City 🤔
That's just it, the Eldest didn't partake in the slaying of the 2nd gen, but it was cursed all the same...
@@theoldcountry So Cain was pretty much the teacher that punishes the whole class even though it was only like 4 students that were acting up lmfao.
@@smuggrog9821 🤣Oh wow, I'm imagining the 3rd generation as 8th graders now:
Toreador making sure its hair looks ok using phone camera, then writes some cheesy poem on the back of a notebook.
Ventrue being the leader of a mischievous little gang of pupils and taking others' lunch money, hoping to become the richest kid in school.
Nosferatu wearing the same clothes it had on for weeks, wiping snot under the desk when no one is looking, keeping tabs on everyone.
Gangrel saved a puppy today and you can hear occasional joyful barks from inside its backpack.
etc. etc.
Then, angry teacher Mr. Caine is like: Why is no one paying attention to me? That's it, quiz time!
🤣
But on a more serious note, I really think Tzimisce was cursed precisely for its lack of involvement in anything tied to the little "family" Caine had created. Even when the Second generation were murdered, the Eldest didn't care. At that time, it was probably too busy shooing and frightening the other Clans away from its beloved lands, which is why Caine was like: "Really? Those stupid lands are all you care about? More than your Sire? More than me? Very well, then I'll make sure you find no rest anywhere else. You can stay in your little nest until the end of time. We'll see how well your transcendence goes when you're bound to a piece of land."
And it makes sense the Tzimisce tradition of hospitality became a thing right after this, since the Eldest's lack of hospitality towards its brothers and sisters is something that contributed to it being cursed.
It was probably its way of showing Caine: "Fine, you're the boss, grandpa! You want me to be hospitable. Sure, I can do that, but don't ask me to actually care about my dead father or my brothers and sisters, because I won't."
EDIT: grammar and such
@@theoldcountry That makes a lot of sense and I can definitely see Caine cursing the Eldest due to its indifference to the fate of its sire, its brood mates and Cain himself. Plus when you look at the Eldest covetous nature and how it treated the other clans that entered its land, I can see why Cain would have a problem. I also love the idea that the Tzimisce hospitality originated as a way for the Eldest to appease Cain and be "kinder" to his fellow cainites.
@The Old Country so first wow the ideal that everyone in Sabbat is just one body/vessel for eldest is crazy make me wonder what eldest is use Sabbat for also you should also looking to and include small information on eldest In 5 edition I know it not necessarily about kupala but because I think eldest and him are so import/connect it would interest know what happen with him in 5 edition you could just add to next video or it own video witch ever you want?
Yay another one!
Quick question:
how do you deal with demons changing bodies? Do you know any good solutions how to resolve the changes coming with new hosts mechanicaly?
Hey! Changing bodies is a situation I've not had in my Demon games so far. I'll check the books, do some research, and get back to you on this one, ok?
I can think of a few systems, but maybe they were already made in the official supplements 🤔
@@theoldcountry sure
@@jackmalin2528 Ok, this took a while 😋 Thank you for the patience. The CBR just says: work it out with your storyteller, but looking at descriptions of Lores like the Lore of Spirit, or the book Earthbound, we can see some ideas coming together: it is suggested to keep most stats intact, except for the physicals (strength, dex, sta, and maybe appearance?), and if the storyteller wants to change the other stats as well, the new character will have the previously gained xp of the old one, to spend on getting this new host to the same "power level". No xp is lost, and that's pretty nice 😁
Some new memories are also gained, because of the new host, but the degree to which this alters the personality is anyone's guess. However, the old memories aren't lost in any substantial way. What seems to be very clear is that the torment rating remains! The shock of coming into human flesh and forgetting your past agony (at least for a while) only happens once. Just like the Earthbound cannot be rid of their torment by possessing a human host, so too are most fallen unable to truly bond with subsequent hosts beyond the first.
This is pretty much how I'd go about it. The game books do say, for the most part: make your own rules and have fun 😋
@@theoldcountry Thank you. I think ill make it so demon adjusts the new host atributes within a month to his comfort zone, split the backgrounds for human and demon part and call it a day.
@@jackmalin2528 Sounds very good! Oh, forgot about backgrounds 😋 It makes sense that with new papers and a new identity, social backgrounds, and maybe even financial backgrounds, like allies, contacts, followers, resources, influence etc. would also be lost, gaining the backgrounds of the new host in their stead 👍(whether the new host has more or less)
All of this makes me wanna buy this Tzimisce book... and I don't even like VtM!
Hypnotoad form successfully assumed 🤣