Hello, cool name btw. Firstly, I understand this was done live and that means you may be saying some things imperfectly. I also think your conclusions are all correct, but the way you explain some things leaves me a little confused. 1. 5:42 "When we use a 1.4 in our MH with DP, we are making it so that we benefit from our hit chance being higher [...] to land more MH attacks than our OH" If you look at your sims and compare MH and OH auto attack miss%, they are essentially identical. Your reasoning implies to me that you believe the dual wield hit penalty is only applied to your OH, which is not the case. The moment you put on an OH, BOTH your MH and OH incur the -19% hit penalty. You may be confusing it with the OH damage penalty (-50%), which only applies to your OH. If this is not the source of the confusion, I apologize for my assumption. You are correct in stating that a 1.4 weapon applies DP more often than a 1.8, but that is because DP has a flat 50% chance to proc (for sin), so more attacks = more procs. This is in contrast to IP, which is PPM, meaning the proc chance is normalized based on weapon speed, so you can expect the same number of procs over a given period of time if simply auto attacking and MORE procs with a slower weapon if using abilities at the same rate with either weapon speed since that normalized proc rate also applies to abilities. Furthermore, the PPH (procs per hit) of IP never exceeds the flat 50% proc chance of DP at realistic weapon speeds (I believe IP's PPH is ~38.5% at 1.8 speed), meaning DP on a fast weapon will generate more procs than IP on any real weapon. Note that Envenom throws a slight wrench in this because it boosts IP a lot more than DP, and I believe IP has a slightly higher PPH while Env is active (IP: ~67.3% vs DP 65%), but Env uptime is not yet that high, so I believe what I stated above is still true on the whole. These numbers are based on Wrath's IP proc rate, which I believe is still accurate, but please correct me if I'm wrong. The end result of this is that you always want DP on a faster weapon and IP on a slower weapon, independent of which hand you're wielding those weapons in. 2. 6:41 "Then why is [the slow MH] doing 30 more DPS? That's because of the differential that we get from the extra damage bonus gained from Steelbender's being in the MH from *not only auto attack swings* and BS damage" The DPS of auto attacks in relation to the weapon you're wielding has basically nothing to do with the weapon's speed, but everything to do with the weapon's DPS. The DPS of Steelbender's is just 0.05 higher than Quicksilver Blade, and that non-difference is reflected in your sims' auto attack DPS, which is basically identical (6633 vs 6623). You also omit the difference in Mutilate DPS, which is another source of the DPS difference, albeit smaller than the difference in BS DPS. A third, (probably) smaller factor is that weapon enchants are PPM, and thus proc more with a slow MH when using abilities. The factors at play when deciding which hand to wield these weapons in are: - The fast weapon with DP will generate more poison procs in the MH because even though Mutilate hits with both weapons, it has TWO chances to proc your MH poison and just one chance to proc your OH poison. Additionally, BS only hits with MH, so it only has a chance to proc your MH poison, along with basically every other ability (excluding Shiv and Fan of Knives). - The slow weapon in the MH will deal more ability damage with Mut and BS because a slower speed means higher weapon damage (given equal weapon DPS), and these abilities use weapon damage. Even though Mutilate hits with both weapons, the OH portion is 50% weaker because of the OH damage penalty, so the slower weapon is more effective at increasing Mutilate damage in your MH. BS obviously only hits with your MH, so the reason a slower weapon deals more damage is entirely straightforward. An additional offsetting factor is that a slow MH will proc its weapon enchant more frequently from abilities because it's also PPM, as stated above. When you're pressing Mutilate, the extra poison damage from having a fast weapon with DP in your MH beats out the extra Mutilate damage you'd have with a slower MH. When you're pressing BS, the extra BS damage with a slow MH beats out the extra poison damage you'd have with a fast weapon with DP. So, our conclusions are the same, but I think the reasoning matters here. Let me know if you believe I've gone astray anywhere in my reasoning.
Hey, great Video. I have a question. For me Fluid Death + Unsolvable riddle is simming worse than Unsolvable riddle + Key to the Endless Chamber. I have the same settings as you on wowsims and I even reforged the gear on wowsims but I don't understand the nearly 200 dps difference. I even used your true prebis wowsims link and changed key to the endless chamber vs fluid death and its a 200 dps increase.
Ive Got few days ago a cheap gilneas Ring and equiped it. Now it says hornet+Signet. Or is the gilneas one even with the Hornet one? Im a bit scared to wasted my gold on it.
Hi! Not sure if you still reply on that video but I have a question regarding the 1.4/1.8 swap. Which poision should I apply to which weapon? 1.4 deadly and 1.8 instant?
When I sim with my gear the PVP 2pc is a 600 DPS loss from my current gear (Embrace of the Night) (Leggings of Burrowing Mole) am I doing something wrong?
Certain scenarios where it’s better generally speaking if you’re running a 1.4 372 and you don’t have a 1.8 372 to match it or something of that nature, but it’s gear dependent so sim everything
Hello, on wowsims it seems like combat sims higher than both sub and assa which seems odd considering it is the "cleave" spec. Is the sim accurate or is it still a work in progress?
Hello! in your discord in the “rogue-qustions” channel, I dropped the SIM where I overclocked the DPS to 33700. Should we believe these numbers? Could it be that my selection is better than your BIS list? Im Stayer in Discord Thx for your attention
loving the very specific analytics you're putting out bud - encouraging people to think for themselves and how to do so 🙏🙏
Hello, cool name btw.
Firstly, I understand this was done live and that means you may be saying some things imperfectly. I also think your conclusions are all correct, but the way you explain some things leaves me a little confused.
1. 5:42 "When we use a 1.4 in our MH with DP, we are making it so that we benefit from our hit chance being higher [...] to land more MH attacks than our OH"
If you look at your sims and compare MH and OH auto attack miss%, they are essentially identical. Your reasoning implies to me that you believe the dual wield hit penalty is only applied to your OH, which is not the case. The moment you put on an OH, BOTH your MH and OH incur the -19% hit penalty. You may be confusing it with the OH damage penalty (-50%), which only applies to your OH. If this is not the source of the confusion, I apologize for my assumption.
You are correct in stating that a 1.4 weapon applies DP more often than a 1.8, but that is because DP has a flat 50% chance to proc (for sin), so more attacks = more procs. This is in contrast to IP, which is PPM, meaning the proc chance is normalized based on weapon speed, so you can expect the same number of procs over a given period of time if simply auto attacking and MORE procs with a slower weapon if using abilities at the same rate with either weapon speed since that normalized proc rate also applies to abilities. Furthermore, the PPH (procs per hit) of IP never exceeds the flat 50% proc chance of DP at realistic weapon speeds (I believe IP's PPH is ~38.5% at 1.8 speed), meaning DP on a fast weapon will generate more procs than IP on any real weapon. Note that Envenom throws a slight wrench in this because it boosts IP a lot more than DP, and I believe IP has a slightly higher PPH while Env is active (IP: ~67.3% vs DP 65%), but Env uptime is not yet that high, so I believe what I stated above is still true on the whole. These numbers are based on Wrath's IP proc rate, which I believe is still accurate, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
The end result of this is that you always want DP on a faster weapon and IP on a slower weapon, independent of which hand you're wielding those weapons in.
2. 6:41 "Then why is [the slow MH] doing 30 more DPS? That's because of the differential that we get from the extra damage bonus gained from Steelbender's being in the MH from *not only auto attack swings* and BS damage"
The DPS of auto attacks in relation to the weapon you're wielding has basically nothing to do with the weapon's speed, but everything to do with the weapon's DPS. The DPS of Steelbender's is just 0.05 higher than Quicksilver Blade, and that non-difference is reflected in your sims' auto attack DPS, which is basically identical (6633 vs 6623). You also omit the difference in Mutilate DPS, which is another source of the DPS difference, albeit smaller than the difference in BS DPS. A third, (probably) smaller factor is that weapon enchants are PPM, and thus proc more with a slow MH when using abilities.
The factors at play when deciding which hand to wield these weapons in are:
- The fast weapon with DP will generate more poison procs in the MH because even though Mutilate hits with both weapons, it has TWO chances to proc your MH poison and just one chance to proc your OH poison. Additionally, BS only hits with MH, so it only has a chance to proc your MH poison, along with basically every other ability (excluding Shiv and Fan of Knives).
- The slow weapon in the MH will deal more ability damage with Mut and BS because a slower speed means higher weapon damage (given equal weapon DPS), and these abilities use weapon damage. Even though Mutilate hits with both weapons, the OH portion is 50% weaker because of the OH damage penalty, so the slower weapon is more effective at increasing Mutilate damage in your MH. BS obviously only hits with your MH, so the reason a slower weapon deals more damage is entirely straightforward. An additional offsetting factor is that a slow MH will proc its weapon enchant more frequently from abilities because it's also PPM, as stated above.
When you're pressing Mutilate, the extra poison damage from having a fast weapon with DP in your MH beats out the extra Mutilate damage you'd have with a slower MH. When you're pressing BS, the extra BS damage with a slow MH beats out the extra poison damage you'd have with a fast weapon with DP. So, our conclusions are the same, but I think the reasoning matters here. Let me know if you believe I've gone astray anywhere in my reasoning.
love the detail in your vids buddy, once again much appreciated, many thanks!
Great video Sqwurrelly!
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks for guide!
Happy to help!
Sqwurrelly the GOAT frfr
Is the +70 agi pvp bonus fix on wowsims?
Dat der a rattle snake was darn tormenting me. Listen here city boy, you don play with no rattlers.
i dun got bit by one and i dun had to get a second one to get that der snake to get outta me
Hi mate! Love the video. Could you upload your vods to youtube too? Would love to catch them!
I got really lucky and I have someone who offered to do my editing for me, I’ll speak with him about how we can potentially incorporate that ❤️
@@Sqwurrelly Sick man!
Where do i find the import sting to reforge?
Great video even for people who don’t play rogue 👍
Love it. Can you tell me Tia or key trinket? Key sims really well. I didnt know about riddle until now and dont have time to farm it
Sim loves key/eye on 3 minute fights
@@Sqwurrelly ok, and fights are generally longer so Tia is better?
Hey, great Video. I have a question. For me Fluid Death + Unsolvable riddle is simming worse than Unsolvable riddle + Key to the Endless Chamber. I have the same settings as you on wowsims and I even reforged the gear on wowsims but I don't understand the nearly 200 dps difference. I even used your true prebis wowsims link and changed key to the endless chamber vs fluid death and its a 200 dps increase.
hey, awesome video, any chance you do something similiar for combat ? :)
When I have more time to do so yes
Considering backstab is a more central part of the sub rotation, would sub still prefer 1.8 MH 1.4 OH?
this is only for assassination
Are we swapping poisons then around 35%?
Ive Got few days ago a cheap gilneas Ring and equiped it. Now it says hornet+Signet. Or is the gilneas one even with the Hornet one? Im a bit scared to wasted my gold on it.
Hi! Not sure if you still reply on that video but I have a question regarding the 1.4/1.8 swap. Which poision should I apply to which weapon? 1.4 deadly and 1.8 instant?
Yes
have your thoughts on this change? im seeing a lot of streamers just keep MH 1.8 entire fight like justwoo.
@@enriqueabundis6854 I’m posting a new Q&A soon that addresses the weapon swaps ❤️
@@enriqueabundis6854 we realized it’s a lot more gear dependent than we thought before
When I sim with my gear the PVP 2pc is a 600 DPS loss from my current gear (Embrace of the Night) (Leggings of Burrowing Mole) am I doing something wrong?
the 2pc is bugged on the sim so you need to manually add the agi it gives u
sick vid i appreciate the help. is there a resource like this for mages in cata? everything ive seen is just super generic blah blah blah
No clue, I’m a rogue only kind of guy
so is the consensus to put deadly on my mh or my oh
Deadly on the faster weapon
@@Sqwurrelly thank you bro. solid video. apologies i was watching during raid night. XD
"unshaved hole pics for gold" - sqwurrelly
What about running 2x 1,4?
Certain scenarios where it’s better generally speaking if you’re running a 1.4 372 and you don’t have a 1.8 372 to match it or something of that nature, but it’s gear dependent so sim everything
@@Sqwurrelly ty for reply, but do u always starts fight with 1,4 in main and then swap them at 35%?
Hello, on wowsims it seems like combat sims higher than both sub and assa which seems odd considering it is the "cleave" spec. Is the sim accurate or is it still a work in progress?
Is riddle still better with engi glove enchant?
yes
How will sub be in the 1st phase ?
It’s pretty good, all 3 specs are viable subs just slightly lower, but with good RNG on nef it’s the best spec
thanx for the trick!
Hello! in your discord in the “rogue-qustions” channel, I dropped the SIM where I overclocked the DPS to 33700. Should we believe these numbers? Could it be that my selection is better than your BIS list?
Im Stayer in Discord
Thx for your attention
deadly MH & Insta OH?
What a good looking guy - and good player too!
im Eng / JC...do I drop JC?
Tailoring is a small DPS gain over it, if you’re rich sure if not don’t sweat it much homie
I fucked up and bought the gloves. Rip.
That sim dps in prebis seems way too high tho, 🤔
Why ramble about the vicious piece choices without showing the sim comparison between both? cooked.
It’s a stream highlight man, sorry it wasn’t perfect lmfao, it’s posted in my discord. You can also just sim it yourself
waow