Anne Heche: When Community Doesn't Show Up
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2023
- This is probably my version of a You're Wrong About episode.
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Content Warning: Discussion of childhood sexual abuse, biphobia, transphobia, sexual harassment, and addiction.
Pride is an interesting time. More often than not, it is both a time for celebration and for over-thinkers like myself to reflect on the realities of how experiences within the LGBTQIA community have changed. Or haven't.
A little under a year ago, actress Anne Heche was declared brain-dead and taken off life support on August 15, 2022. If you don't know her name, you might remember her as the voice of Suyin Beifong in The Legend of Korra. She was on shows like Everwood, Ally McBeal, and All Rise and in the films I Know What You Did Last Summer and John Q.
Hers is a name I’d heard in passing growing up. Still, I had no idea about the trauma and battles she faced throughout her life as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, sexual harassment, familial trauma, mental health issues, and extreme biphobia. And when I was working on an article about her passing back in 2022, her story resonated with me because as we have seen the attempts from Conservatives to criminalize our community-I think it is important to remember the damage that we also do to each other when we fail to back each other.
So this video is a bit of queer history, reflection, and a lot of trying to explain why we need to re-access how to talk to each other. I promise to try and do something happier for the next Pride. Maybe.
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Sources & Links:
Bisexual Stats: mashable.com/article/bisexual... www.thetaskforce.org/news/bis...
Jay Leno Quote Source: www.indiewire.com/features/ge...
Elliot Page Sweepstakes Quote (Warning has Deadname): www.gawker.com/361783/the-ell...
NYT Magazine Quote: www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/ma...
The Advocate 2001 Article: books.google.com/books?id=G2U...
People Article about Breakup: people.com/archive/yep-its-ov...
Heche on building back familial bonds: web.archive.org/web/201202210... - บันเทิง
Just a note as someone who is a survivor of childhood sexualization in very traumatic ways, if you come with bullshit you will be blocked.
You talk about inclusivity in the queer community and still exclude asexual people yourself. Most of these discussions about attraction, love and lust is so unrelatable to us, except on the very theoretical level. We get no representation besides being played up for laughs or infantilized and tamed or pathologized. Not hating on you, but just pointing it out to you. We feel like we don't belong anywhere, that we don't even have the right to call ourselves queer sometimes. Edit: noticed you mentioned ace later, but early on you didn't. gain, not hatin, jsut pointing out that sometimes it might be difficult to keep track of the multitudes of intersecting identities
@@pssurvivordo you go on other channels and "correct" them like this or do you only do it to Black women?
@@pssurvivor Princess has talked about asexuality multiple times on her channel
@@pssurvivorwhy are you trying to silence Princess?
There’s something so homophobic about even making this. Really whiney too.
A lot of biphobia directed towards bi feminine people (especially if they're afab and "look cis") is honestly just misogyny repackaged
Literally yes!!! That's why I never associate myself with the queer community really because I've never been accepted in the first place. I still support the lgbtqia community and identify as queer but never considered myself one of them.
@@genevievewalsh2007i’m not even bi i’m a pansexual non binary femme but i still have a queer friend who tries to make me feel bad about wanting to have sex with men. not even DATE them. about being sexually attracted to them like once a year they always try to be like “well…you’re not going to get what you’re looking for” like ??? i’m not looking for anything but sex from cis men. it’s like they think you’re “going back” when you’re not. it invalidates my queerness at the end of the day when they treat me like a confused little straight girl 😐 and i think it’s rooted in biphobia to be honest bc they always get the most shit for dating men. i understand cis men are a mess rn unfortunately but that changes nothing relating to how i feel about sex.
@dklee.01 yes. Sexual attraction isn't a choice its just the way you're wired
I wouldn't even say it's repackaged - it's truly where misogyny and queerness intersects (and that's even before getting to things like race). There's so many things statistically that are noticeable when you look in them that happen to bisexual women and AFABs regarding IPV, abuse, poverty and housing insecurity.
Huh?
My husband's bisexuality wasn't known by a lot of people until I came out as a transgender man. And it's dismissed by a lot of people who say we're still together because he just sees me as a woman.
Which is insulting to both of us. After I came out he admitted that being with me has always felt more like being with a man, but he didn't say anything because he didn't want to hurt my feelings. And now that it's been years and I've transitioned my being a man just seems more obvious, but it was always there.
He still finds women attractive. That is still a thing. But if he wasn't bisexual he says he probably wouldn't have dated me at all. I seem too much like a guy. Which I am. So that worked out.
I'm so glad you found each other, whether others understand it or not.
Now if that's not the dictionary definition of "meant to be" I don't know what is! 🤍
I'm non-binary and typically have dated guys who were bi (although a few were gay).
We see each other lol
As a trans man this is the dream lol
I’m glad you have each other! 💖
Thats good and all but there lot of straight guy that date "too much like a guy" afab people also that phrase is just so weird to me
I feel sad that Heche didn't live long enough to be vindicated in the public eye. She deserved so much better.
She lived until very recently and never got that vindication, so sadly it was probably never coming :/
same, it's upsetting since I only knew her name and not much about her work :C
@@aazhie Even if she hadn't been killed in a horrific car accident, she still wouldn't have gotten vindication. One of the first things being brought up was the house that she destroyed. People really wanted her to live to face the consequences of her actions. I'm not saying that to be reductive. I know that there were just as many people who wanted her to live to old age. I was just stating what I was seeing on TH-cam and Twitter at the time!
@@aazhie😊
hearing that interviewer pick apart anne's own account of the SA she experienced is horrifying, like actually skin crawling. the idea that her being open about the reality of her abuse is somehow dangerous to the queer community is such a sick, victim blaming mentality to have. and it's definitely not lost on me that her bi/pan/fluid sexuality made it easier for the interviewer to place anne as being at odds with the queer community in the first place, not a part of it. they seemed to care so much about her description of her dad as a gay man, but not about anne's own description of herself, as a woman whose love is not bound by gender. is a queer woman being abused not also worthy of protection from the community? is it more important she hold her tongue in describing her abuser because of the way his very real actions could hypothetically reflect on others?
Hard agree.
Yeah that was shocking. I skipped back to see if I'd heard it right. The things people are willing to say so openly to someone who has gone through so much and still decided to be open and vulnerable are so disheartening. I hope she had peace and rest in her final moments though she had so little in life.
I’m 40 so I remember this all too well. Ann was dragged to hell and back after her split with Ellen the her subsequent marriage to a man. It was disgusting and tragic. I’m not surprised at Anne’s untimely demise because she had no support from the community or her loved ones. Bisexual erasure and fetishization of the late 90s and early 00s needs to be criticized more.
I remember it being a "relief" when Anne "went back" because I knew but didn't know that I was queer and I liked the idea that I could disappear into relationships with a boy and disavow my interest in girls and people would accept that I was straight but had a "crazy moment" temporarily. 😢 yay for being a queer back Christian in the 90s.
@kristalcampbell3650 this is so relatable to me. I struggled with my own internalised biphobia, so I felt this relief.
Same. I was afraid of being a queer woman (pansexual) for so long in part because of the treatment of Anne Heche and other closeted bisexual women. It was definitely not a safe space for us.
I remember the whole discourse too.
Back then I was not able to speak english, so i just followed the parts that were displayed in the German media...the narrative there was pretty much that she "used" ellen..(kinda: she pushed her to out them, than abandoned her..)
It's amazing what media will do to get a good story, with a victim, hero and villain..
I also remember it. I'm 42. I was a big fan of Ellen's standup in the early 90s before her first TV show launched. I actually read her book when it came out. I'm a cis straight man, but I was happy for her when she came out and thought her show only got better.
I hate that just because her father was gay they don’t believe Heche, when straight men victimize little boys all the time. For those who are inclined to commit CSA it’s not about the gender, it’s about who they have access to and who is must vulnerable
And the "control". If & When they find it, they want it. Once they want, find & feel it, they must then keep it.
Rape and sexual assault and harassment have NOTHING to do with sex or sexuality; it entirely has to do with power and control
Wasn’t there a study that found that most people who sexually abuse children aren’t even pedophiles (as in, sexually attracted to kids). It really is very often about power
Yes. It's also something closer to an addiction then attraction. Many are addicted to porn. And this escalates as they look for a greater fix or high. The content becomes more degrading and the fix becomes about seeing someone as more of an object and not a human.
Grim thought, but this would explain why bisexuals experience more intimate partner violence. Existing outside of the heteronormative relationship dynamic can make the heteronormative leaning partner feel out of control. This is not a justification, but an observation. People who do the relationship thing should probably unpack that and lessen the cultural perception of relationships as a entitlement to control.
@@ookamiblade6318 absolutely. Anecdotal, but this is exactly how the abuse experience by my bisexual friends and myself worked. An ex boyfriend of mind would use my bisexuality to try and be controlling because he didn’t think I could be trusted, plus try and badger me into “letting” him cheat. Another friend of mine had that used as an excuse for her ex girlfriend beating her and verbally abusing because she just “knew” she would “run back to men” eventually
@@kasairan8492I will say that trauma can impact how people talking about their sexuality. I have a bisexual friend who was very clear that she was into both boys and girls when we were teenagers, despite being from a Christian evangelical family. She dated a girl who was very emotionally abusive, often saying she would just “run back to men,” for almost a decade. When she finally got away she immediately got with a homophobic, conservative straight man and married him less than 2 years. She swears to this day she was just straight all along and was just manipulated by her lesbian ex. I have a hard time believing it’s as simple as that.
Omg the interviewer treating her abuse so inappropriately so publicly is insane! It's like they were trying to lead her into a gotcha moment for not being good for the queer community by weaponizing HER experience of abuse...Like what?
I am reminded of the anti choice narrative that they're always morally right. They talk in the exact manner in interviews. Never mind real life scenarios though, the only good abortion is theirs.
That journalist was actually doing damage reinforcing the idea that abuse is about attraction, ugh, that was ugly
"We can pass, if we choose erasure." Thank you so much for that sentence and that take. I often find I'm exhausted and I appreciate the way you framed both recognizing passing privilege and also the unpleasantness of constantly having that conversation.
The hatred this woman received from nearly every corner was incandescent, and crushing.
No joke. Her entire life is horrifically tragic...
NGL, the 90s and 2000s were pretty ugly times for anyone who was a woman. As I type this, there’s a Twitter post making the rounds of the “fat celebrities” of that time that includes [checks notes] Kate Winslet circa 1997, Jessica Simpson as a size 6 and Britney Spears during her first tour after giving birth twice in one calendar year.
But the shit lobbed at queer women (especially bisexual women)? Whew chile. I would only wish that hell on my managers from my job at Acura.
@@KariIzumi1 here's an ego check for your bosses, I didn't even know they still made Acura's.
Yeah, that "having sex with your dad" quip is so far out of line, it really makes it feel like the interviewer wasn't coming into that meeting in good faith to begin with. Such a grody and gross statement.
Edit: That was such a good, heartfelt video. Thank you for your voice and your work. ❤
I expect AfterEllen to be a truly cesspit but even I am shocked at how revolting that interview was. What kind of empty, soulless husk do you have to be to talk to a CSA victim like that? Horrid.
The fact that AfterEllen was THE queer woman's website when we were all growing up is so wild looking back, it's shocking we emerged as unscathed as we did. It was always such a trash site.
@@LaurasBookBlog yeah…there was a gap of a few years in my visiting AfterEllen, and it was astonishing to see how negative and hostile their coverage had gotten. Honestly it gave me an alt-right vibe… Luckily we have more choices now.
listening to the way this interview was worded felt so painful and enraging
So glad you did this. Lindsey Lohan was also treated this way and no longer talks about being bi
I did not know that about Lindsay! 🤯
tbh most of the early 2000's women got treated like shit
really? i vaguely remember her being with a woman, but i did not know she was bi until now
Does she identify as bi? It could be erasure but I never heard about her coming out. I know she dated Sam, but I don’t know how she identifies.
@@mhawang8204 You don’t need to “come out” in order to deserve to be validated in your orientation. she doesn’t need to announce her sexuality to anybody. She was dating a woman, that’s evidence enough that she is queer.
I'm a Bi-Black Man and still haven't come out to my family. My comfort comes from telling my friends new n old. It also feels nice knowing that it's not just me.
You come out when you're ready. I'm a Bi black female and I just came out to my parents last year...Im 33 😂. The thing is I wasn't hiding it I figured I would tell them if they questioned me but what I failed to realize is they had no reason to ask! I'm married to my high school sweetheart a guy and it never occurred to me until last year that they never would ask because they would just assume I'm straight. 😂😂
Thank you for mentioning Demi Lovato. Many people refuse to mention her when it comes to the discourse around child stars because they find her annoying and feel like she brings all of her issues onto herself. While that may somewhat be true she still dealt with a lot of mental and emotional issues that worsened when she became a huge star at just 15 years old and is understandably still trying to find herself and figure out who she is.
*Thank you for mentioning Demi Lovato. Many people refuse to mention them when it comes to the discourse around child stars because they find them annoying and feel like they bring all of their issues onto themself. While that may somewhat be true they still dealt with a lot of mental and emotional issues that worsened when they became a huge star at just 15 years old and is understandably still trying to find themself and figure out who they are.
NOW it's perfect
@@MrPiccoloku Demi uses she/her pronouns as well as they/them afaik; a better correction would be to tell OP that it's usually best to use both pronouns interchangably (usually only one per sentence) if you can't get a preference from the person themself. Some people have more femme/masc/neutral days and use corresponding pronouns, some use all of them at once. Demi said the exhaustion from misgendering was only part of why they started using she/her again.
@@cordeliaistheone Yeah I was about to delete my og comment tbh but then I said nah
I wouldn't mention her not because she's annoying or something but because she facilitated her bodyguard being r*ped and laughed about it, then when she got called out on Twitter she doubled down.
Her mental illness led her to OD into mental retardation.
As someone who was also sexually abused as a child by a family member who is also queer, that moment (15:00) taken to recognize that people who abuse are not doing so based off of sexual attraction means so much. Despite knowing this truth, hearing it again and especially in a context so similar to mine helped my integrate that truth more, allowed me to release more.
I'm 45 and remember the 80s and lost my male role model to aids. I'm also a monogamous primarily cis woman and a bisexual, married to a beautiful man for 10 years. I was basically shunned from the LGBT community first when i said i was bi, not a lesbian and also living in a straight relationship. I've not experienced such bad behavior from any cis, straight person. Who anyone loves is frankly none of anyones business. Love is love. Peope are people
I grew up in the 80’s too and the thing I remember all through my 20’s was being told by anyone in the gay community that I needed to “pick a side” or I wasn’t being real. The last time I had someone tell me I had to “pick a side” it was 2009. So…not that long ago.
Aroace solidarity for all our twice rejected pals!
There’s been some pretty nasty stuff going down in at least my pocket of ace Twitter, and it simply boils down to: “you’re not oppressed in the *EXACT* same way as me, so I don’t want to be in community with you.” Queer gatekeeping is exhausting.
Damn that’s just awful
That's why I can never come out as an asexual as some people both within and outside of the LGBTQIA+ community believe that asexuality is a mental illness. Gate-keeping is a truly cruel practice. When people tell me I don't belong it is one of the most painful and gut-wrenching things to hear. It has led me to depression and wanting to commit suicide when I was younger. I'm a young and vibrant woman in my 30s and I just happen to show love a little differently. According to the Trevor Institute asexual people have some of the highest rates of being offered "corrective therapies" which can range from sexual roleplay, bills to help libido, hypnosis therapy, conversion camps, and even forced sexual encounters. As someone who had corrective therapy forced on my the trauma, anger, and hurt will NEVER go away. We need to all love and support each other in this community. There is not LGB without the TIA+.
@@edamamame4U 💜 Honestly, people who say “where’s the hate,” and then proceed to be hateful aren’t worth perusing direct community with anyway. I’ve found that bi and trans folks are a lot more open and accepting, and, like, half the time they come out to me as aro/acespec when I tell them I’m aroace. One of the most irritating parts of gatekeeping queerness from aroace folks is that so many of us are other forms of queer too. Some people don’t know how to think intersectionally, and they make it super obvious to everyone around them.
No one should have to go through what you’ve been through. We’ve got so much to give one another, and I’m so, so glad you’re here to be community and solidarity with (and while I’m on that topic DON’T these allosexuals understand how *amazing* it is to have acespec friends??? We’re literally set up for success in the friendship department. It’s like our whole deal. 😂🙃🫠). 💜💜💜
It's so shitty! These people think that shoving down or separating those more different than themselves will make them more acceptable. History has so many examples that those tactics do not work. It's really saddening.
Appreciated this discussion so much. The discourse on 'bi privilege' tends to be so incredibly one-dimensional. It's not useful to think of safety only from one angle ('can you walk down the street holding hands without getting harrassed?'), when there are so many other meaningful factors as well (like the rates of abuse/violence that bi women face, as you mentioned). It's such an annoying conversation because it flattens so much in the name of biphobia, when it's perfectly possible to acknowledge both where privilege exists and where forms of bigotry and violence impact bi people.
Exactly.
Also: when you are gay, you simply don't go into that church where the pastor talks about Sodomites every other week. When you are bi, and your friend is being confirmed there, you aren't seen as having an excuse to get out of going. You'd better have a good poker face, because those guys pack heat in church. Maybe you can't hold hands on the street, but I've been escorted out of a church at gunpoint. If I didn't speak up for the queer community, I'd be participating in homophobic violence. People refuse to get that when they say "passing privilege" they are erasing the reality that rhetoric is violent and we have to deal with far more of it than they do. We are in the spaces where people say these horrible homophobic things. We are the ones who have to make the choice of whether to speak up, or let it go: when oftentimes neither of those options is exactly safe. Let it go and the violence continues. Speak up, and risk all of it being directed at you. There is no good option here. I know what a privilege is: I'm white, and my parents earn above average income. I understand what being privileged feels like. Passing does not feel the same. Passing is something I do because I need to protect someone. Sure, I can play the nice white girl for the officer or the jury, but it's just that: an act. I'll do it when someone who can't pass needs it. If I did it at any other time, I'd only be hurting myself and everyone like me. Passing means walking on eggshells. It means reading the room with every iota of brain power and schooling your expressions to present only what you want them to see. It means lying or stretching the truth. Privilege is literally the opposite of that. Privilege is being able to not think about what you are expressing, because the other person doesn't have the power to hurt you if they don't like it. Privilege is being able to disregard someone else's needs or feelings. These things are not the same.
the difference is that while bisexual women have higher rates of abuse/violence, and the reasons for this are connected to biphobia, abuse and violence is still not unique to bisexuality and bisexual people, while being discriminated against for being in a same sex relaitonship IS unique to bi and gay people in same sex relationships. Meaning that the shit that comes from being in a same sex relationships, including experiencing harassment while in public, but also includes things like legal and other social inequalities, requires being in a same sex relaitonship. Like you cant be a bisexual woman in a mongamous relationship with a man and experience discrimination for sprcfically being in a same sex relaitonship, because your not in one. But you can be a person of any sexualiry and be in a abusive relaitonship.
@@reneewalters2013 okay, but I don't see where my comment negates any of that...? I'm a bit confused on the purpose of your comment. Was it just the urge to "biphobia isn't really that bad" because I was discussing biphobia? Because my comment very explicitly states that it's possible to acknowledge both where privilege exists and how biphobia is violent and harmful. And your comment comes across, to me, with a "well, actually" vibe that doesn't actually counter anything I said in my comment, so I don't really understand where it's coming from, if not an impulse to undermine the impacts of biphobia just because you see the topic being discussed
Has there ever been a story of children raised by religious extremists that didn't end in abuse? Makes me so angry that we always hear about these abuse stories from the religious right and yet they have the gall to go round accusing innocent people of being 'groomers'. Extremely tragic what happened to Anne, clearly there is something genuinely awful going on in these extreme religious communities that needs to stop!
I’ll never forget when my niece came out as bisexual. And people said “oh she’s doing it for attention.” She’s been dating this boy for a long time and I honestly think she keeps going back to him because of the BS she’s gotten for coming out.
The way bisexuals are treated is hot nonsense. So thank you for this video.
As a fellow Bi I'm so glad someone talking about this stuff and you do it so incredibly well. I was born in '82 so I'm an "elder" millenial and I was a teen when the Ellen and Anne thing happened. The media obsession with that couple was unreal! People were constantly picking and prodding at their relationship for every tiny detail. Once they got those details Ellen and Anne were blamed with "oversharing" or "not shutting up about their relationship". The Simpsons, SNL and all the talk shows made fun of them for one thing or another. Anne was the the one who got it the worst though. There was an SNL skit that portrayed her as an abusive control freak. I haven't seen it since the '90's but it really disturbed me at the time. There's a lot of things I miss about the '90's but not that part!
*waves in old af ('81 model) bi who remembers that as well...*
@@samiyarossini Waves back! Yeah, it was crazy. Thanks for the comment.
I remember it too. Ppl used Anne and Ellen as a reason to say that queer relationships wouldn’t work 😒
@@scilines Yep, you're right.
Just came here to comment that I also am an order bi millennial and growing up watching all the hate really crushed me and stuck with me for years.
I always feel seen, respected, and welcomed when you talk about being bi.
+
Me as well!!
❤❤
It was so hard to read the interview excerpts but I feel there is some justice to analysing that cruelty in retrospect, when so much of a person's life had been mocked without pardon... To look back and balk at the mistreatment, to offer a more sympathetic, understanding narrative to Anne Heche, and to put it into context of what is happening today is really important. Thank you, Princess, for the work you put into this.
I think the interview is the reason this video exists in many ways. It was so cruel and mean that I think it perfectly highlighted what it meant to be openly queer and have no support because you weren’t doing it the “right” way
As a biromantic asexual women the amount of hatred I get both within and outside of the LGBTQIA+ community is insane. I'm getting so sick and tired of people telling me that asexuality is a mental illness and that asexual people don't belong at Pride or the queer community. My god is it hurtful and and cruel to be constantly told you don't belong and need to be fixed. I can never come out because I'm not queer enough for the LGBT+ community and not hetero enough. We all need to support and stand up for one another in the LGBTQIA+ community.
As a bi breeder don't listen to them. ❤❤❤ You belong ❤❤❤
Thanks for bringing up Demi, the way people have been responding has been bothering me for a while now. And Janelle, I really relate to where they're at right now in their music, so it's really annoying seeing backlash to them now that they're "showing skin." Great video!
Me and my husband are both bi but I feel cringe when wanting to display rainbow pride. We both used to work with our hometown gay youth resource center. I never had felt odd in queer spaces as a bi til I got married to an opposite sexed partner. Now I feel like an intruder
My wife is bi and had a very similar thing happen when we got engaged. Two of her queer friends immediately told her she was no longer welcome any more. It was awful.
I oddly feel this way as someone who identifies outwardly as ace aro (I know there are more concise labels inside the ace spectrum but i mean in my situation i have absolutely no interest in sex, romance, partners, whatever)
Because of how i am i don’t feel queer or proud, because its all about love in all kinds you know? I feel like an intruder in queer spaces and i do not outwardly identify myself as queer even though people do include acespec into queer spaces which i agree with! I just personally lean too far into a complete lack of desire for anything to feel i deserve being in those spaces.
But it is a comfort for me to still show queer flags and support at pride as a way of still showing my support for people who present more outwardly as queer you know?
I feel like for you guys it would be like you’re showing support for people who more outwardly present as queer and the struggles that come with that, but please do not be ashamed to express about your own struggles as they do not stop existing when you marry, humans are complex and we shouldn’t simplify that experience, you know?
As a pan trans man with a trans woman partner, we probably wouldn't look stereotypically queer but go to pride events a lot. I wanna extend all my love to everyone who feels like they aren't queer enough to feel comfy at rainbow events, you are valid and there will always be a space for you, whether or not you wanna join in.
you aren't an intruder ❤
just wanted to say that
Don't. Some gays are jealous that bis, aces and even some trans people are straight passing. That's it. That's where the hate comes from. Hell I'm waiting for the penny to drop and the people that are into LGB groups right now to turn on bis. Let them. They were never allies. It's time to regroup and see who's here for the party and who's here for the bricks. And on who's side.
It's just so wild watching people we are supposed to be in community with erase each other to keep their limited internal narratives black and white consistent. We selfishly erase each other to keep our mental stories straight and I just want to scream BE DAMNED WITH YOUR INTERNAL NARRATIVE, THE PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM THAT MINDSET ARE REAL, UNLIKE THE HELLSCAPE YOU'VE DREAMED UP AND ARE TRYING YOUR DAMNEDEST TO UPHOLD. It's just so wild seeing how plainly we attempt to argue each other's reality for our own comforts D:
Thanks for screaming, I'm real tired of getting treated like a man by conservaqueers. And I'm getting real tired of how other people get treated too. They've made me regret coming out.
I am a gay cis man but I get what you mean, albeit in a different context. I was born into a muslim immigrant family and my local gay community (a German city of more than 1 million ppl) is mostly white, even though statistically speaking there should be way more BIPOC Queers in the community. I kinda expected a "community" where I could be myself but often found ppl who were racist and islamophobic AF but still voted left leaning parties. They only wanted ppl who dressed like themselves, had a similar body shape and "act straight" as they would have said back then (or in other words, femme shaming). In other words, if you didnt conform to their "ideals" of gender, body shape and behaviour, you ended up pretty alone.
@@hakanozaslan9571 This sounds eerily like Cologne lol. They love to claim how queer, proud and open they are, but the amount of biphobia I experienced within some local communities there was atrocious. I can't even imagine what you must've gone through with the background you've just described. Terrible :(
Thanks for this. I never knew about Anne, but it's heartbreaking to hear about what she went through and heartbreaking that this still plays out today for us. I'm bi, I'm ace, and I'm nonbinary, and what you said about the fear of fluidity within the community rings so true- I have seen this on every front of my queer identity to shocking degrees. And I was amazed that when I started working in a queer space the biphobia in my life actually got much worse. Suddenly bisexuality was like a silly little joke where you could pretend to be attracted to certain people (here's a hint, it's men) but if you really loved them or really dated them you should be ashamed of yourself. And the framing of that betrayal was always that it was inherently "straight," even if you were a trans man (cis bi men just don't exist to my coworkers I guess). It's so nasty and uncomfortable and revealing and has made me feel like in a space I want to feel safe and understood in I have to become an advocate instead of just being allowed to exist. And it loops around to transphobia as well - if it's "men" who are inherently an issue, what are you saying about trans women? It sure as hell echoes terf rhetoric. Are trans men traitors? Are trans men and non-binary folks like me just discount women in your eyes? That's all shit terfs say about us. It cuts the community up in the nastiest ways and people feel so comfortable being casual with it that it alarms me. So thank you as always for being a beacon and for speaking your truth in the ways you can. I know how heavy it can be but I'm grateful, and as a younger bisexual person it helps me to feel less alone.
Fellow bi/pan nonbinary person here and I gotta say, it shocks me how differently queer people treated me when I ID as a trans man versus now, when I've come out as myself, as nonbinary. I had a really venomous experience a few months back where I was open at work about my gender and pronouns, and when I clocked a new coworker of mine as trans (by asking her for her pronouns), she seemed to become really two faced towards me. She knew I was trans, too, (nonbinary, specifically) but would always misgender me. And I decided one day to vent that frustration out online by posting a snarky post on a local queer app about it only to have two trans women decades older than me call me a tenderqueer for expressing frustration at a fellow trans person not offering the same basic courtesy and respect I offered her. It was insanely eye-opening and unpleasant.
this comment hits so close to home and this similar experience is why i've mostly disassociated from the online queer community, i've encountered too many people who wpuld be nice to me to my face but would turn around and say horrible things about transmascs, afab nonbinary people, anyone attracted to men in any capacity, etc, like they thought i couldn't see that shit. i would always feel that i wasn't "enough" or the "right" kind of queer and i just gave up on being me entirely. i've just entirely stopped thinking abt my identity even though it is something i do care about and like to explore in art, but i'm still traumatized from the ways my "friends" would dehumanize, victim blame and villify me and people like me.
I'm ace dear sibling. Rock on.
Never forget that prominent Terf Arielle Scarcella started as a prominent biphobe (yes, I remember the 'apology'). There is a connection between biphobia and transphobia, I'm sure.
@@marygreenapple And aphobia, yeah. Much of it is the same rhetoric, just repackaged slightly depending on which group isn't queer enough for them right now.
I remember laughing at Anne Heche being parodied on late night and sketch comedy shows. But I’m just as guilty now as I was then. I didn’t question those articles that stated Heche was under the influence when she passed. And I like to think I am a critical thinker/ skeptic. This video is illuminating. Thank you.
Omg that Rebel Wilson article pissed me off so much. My mom came out at around age 42 back in the early 00's. Just because things have improved somewhat for queer people doesn't mean that there isn't still a ton of queerphobia in the world. There are still a myriad reasons why someone might be closeted, especially someone in the public eye, and to force anyone to come out when they're not ready/don't want to is beyond disgusting.
As a nonbinary bisexual, LGBT is just an acronym. People narrowly tolerate LG. They don't believe in BT. Then when they're forced to confront the reality of our existence, they react with hatred and rage. The abject horror of being bisexual is having an entire community that drops you because of who you're dating. The abject horror of being trans is having an entire community drop you because of how you present. It is existential terror, hypothetical acceptance that never translates into real practice. Being in constant pain and being constantly gaslit about that pain. I know this is dramatic, but I live in Florida lol, so hope is not high atm
Yeah I have this experience too. The soul-destroying combination of erasure, visibility when you Don't want it, and slipping through the cracks to have no community at all
god, thank you for this
🤎❤️🤎
Not sure if you saw the other day, but it looks like British Vogue put out an interview with Kit Connor (Heartstopper kid), and I'm pretty sure it's the first he's really commented on the whole outing or his bi-ness.
Without dwelling on it, he did mention that feeling of "not straight enough to be gay, not gay enough to be straight" experience we bi's go through.
I think the kid will be alright though.
I saw that! It was just sad that at 19 he had to deal with that. I wasn’t ready at 19 at all
I just wanted to say that I love how you handled excerpts that include Page's deadname and wrong pronouns 💜 Really love your work so it's not like it's a surprise, but it made this trans nonbinary viewer really happy anyway.
I read the description and immediately loved the premise. Pride is about all of the stories, positive and negative. It's a spectrum. Thank you for raising awareness for the stories of amazing humans. You are such a good storyteller.
I'm gonna incorporate "lactating with rage" into my vocabulary.
Janelle Monáe is how my friend and I knew we were queer in middle school. It is true that if you paid any attention to their work it would be obvious.
Your article on Anne Heche was so groundbreaking for me. Before I read your article I had only heard the jokes about Anne Heche (that were all biphobic and ableist) and never really pushed back on it because I had been taught these things were "funny". It wasn't until I read your article that I realized how I had tacitly accepted the mockery of her experience. You're final thesis is very good. We can't keep letting things like this happen.
I‘m only halfway through, but I just want to say: even if Anne Heche would have been under the influence and addicted - this still doesn’t justify the way she was treated. I didn’t even know her well from TV, and I didn’t even know Ellen and her were an item back in the day (I was just too young), but I was sad to see a fellow bisexual go. Even nowadays we still don’t talk about mental health, bisexuality and addiction in a empathetic way. It was disheartening.
Also: 100% agree with you don’t have to understand something for it to be valid. I even have to have this discussion with fellow queers and it makes me so angry inside… Like I don’t share your experience and I think you’re valid, so why do you have to invalidate others or me (i experienced that both with me and my bisexuality and a friend of mine who is nonbinary)?
Thank you for including that sexual abuse (especially CSA) doesn't have a sexual attraction "type." It's well known that p*dofiles will have the type they gravitate toward, usually, but will take a child victim within their preferred age range when given the chance. Also, sexual deviance tends to run the gamut, from my understanding.* People who are p*dophiles seem to have little problem engaging in b*stiality and other forms of sexual abuse.
Brutal honesty a lot of early online AFAB nonbinary communities were born partially due to people wanting to escape toxic gatekeeping similar to what you see in this video.
It's cathartic to see a video like this.
I have meant only kind LGBT plus people except one. My father is gay and abused me. I’ve had people accuse me hatred when my father isn’t safe. I’m not homophobic. I need to take care of myself. People see everything as black and white. Life is fluid. I appreciate this video more than you know. I hope one day all abused are respected.
As a bi person who is socially a woman in my 20s I really did not know anything about her story. Every point you made resonated so much, it is unbearably awful how bi feminine people are treated even by the lgbt community.
This is timing! I just watched The Bisexual from Desiree Akhavan where they mention Anne Heche and I never heard about her before. So excited to find out more especially through one of your videos!
I mean I didn't know about the correction pronunciation either.
What you were saying about Anne being seen as an activist, not just a woman in love, reminds me of a comic I saw some time ago - two ladies are walking down a street hand-in-hand, and they keep getting stopped - not just by hecklers, but by well-wishers - and by the time they get to the end of the block, they both look exhausted.
Honestly, I really hate to see the divide between the community as some try soo hard to appeal to cis straight "respectable" people. Like, they hate us all!
I'm Aromantic and Pansexual, and I used to identify as Bi, but honestly there was something about "bisexual" that didn't fit me, it's not that is wrong, it's just that it wasn’t quite right for me. Then I found Pansexual and I felt like "yeah, that's me." So it's so dumb for me to see fights between Bi and Pan people, like we're the same!
Also, right now I'm making my whole personality being Aro lmao. Because for me that was the part that it was the hardest to accept. Like the community for so much time was always centered on: "love (romantically) is love (romantically)" it wasn’t until recently that I've seen the sentiment "we just don't fit into the rigid system one way or another, and that's ok!" More often that I was able to think "I'm not broken, I'm normal, I just don't have to live with a lot of trouble you guys go through"
So when I see people claiming that aro and ace don't belong in the queer community, I'm like "it's not about if we lack something, it's about how we're different from the norm"
People excluding you like that are acting really bad, reminds me of people who want to stop having trans people in the space, it’s all just bigotry repackaged with mediocre arguments, if any
I want to thank you SO MUCH for making these points! I've spent years wondering why I both feel so connected with queer people and spaces - and yet at the same time, there wasn't a clear place for me, personally, among them. Not everyone fits into a clear binary identity! More and more frequently, we're seeing how much damage this way of thinking can cause in our communities. It isn't right.
I have waffled between calling myself bisexual or pansexual. I stuck with bisexual, but my version is the kind of bisexuality that is basically pansexuality. I was so surprised when I was exploring a pansexual Facebook page at how angry they were at bisexuals. I’ve always felt like they were close kin (and should be).
@@judgemario You'd think! I think my favorite description of bi and pan that I read is "There's a lot of overlap, but some people think there are distinct differences, and that's okay."
@@MsAnubisia That’s really well said. ♥️
Sad I missed the premiere!
I called out an acquaintance, who is gay, for is homophobia. For not believing in being bisexual. He threatened me and told me his sisters were going to beat him up for me calling him a homophobe. At the time, may not have used the right words. But that’s how he was acting. Those girls didn’t even know who I was when I postured up on the streets when I seen them.
He was one of the few gay men in my life and it still hurts that he denied bisexuality to the point of threatening me.
I remember the biphobia and transphobia within the queer community back in the 90s, and it blows my mind we're still here. I'm glad you're out here speaking out about it. And also pointing out how trauma is weaponized against people we don't like. Anne Heche was done dirty, and we're still doing the same thing today. We need to do better supporting each other.
I remember people in the 90s saying Anne Heche was pretending to be a lesbian and pretending to be "crazy" for attention. They acted like everything that happened to her was part of some PR scheme to make her famous, and, therefore, it was ok to be cruel to her since she was faking everything. I hated that attitude, then, and I still hate it now. Bisexual people get accused of faking things a lot, I've noticed.
Lindsay Ellis once mentioned the stat that about 90% of bisexuals end up in opposite sex relationships. When she said that, my reaction was: "that's just math." The heterosexual dating pool is about 10 times the size, so if your attraction to both is even (which for some people it is and for others it isn't, but on average...), then yeah, about 10-1 roughly should end up with the opposite sex based on probability alone.
Good observation.
As a survivor of DV from *entirely* from my own "community" I honestly could NOT hit both the "like" and "Subscribe" buttons fast enough!!!😢
I think this is an interesting time to release this video. Jasmin savoy brown is getting a lot of heat for her sexual identity label, but most of the chatter is so deeply rooted in hate and annoyance that there is nothing constructive to take from it. I think being LGBTQ in general is tough but to out and proud and to be a public persona seems to mean that you will be loved til you are hated or given no grace when you say something out of line. Anne’s story is so deeply sad and tragic and it seems we haven’t moved the needle very far from the 90s
Pride is the time where I get to be told that the various monopolies that control my city are good actually and care about the community and that's it. Its not a celebration of any marginalized group anymore its just corporate advertisement. Not even dressed up in rainbow anymore.
Classic Capitalism Co-Op
(Stuff like this makes me feel so many weird emotions. Sadgry? Anad? Depression Aggression? All I know is... it sucks.)
I started coming out to friends as bi in 2005 when I was 15; so much of what you said hit hard❤️. Something I return to time and time again is how important it is that bisexuals seek community with each other. Bisexuals and all the identities that intersect with our sexuality deserve support and community with each other, while keeping our doors open to support other queer people, especially the most marginalized. Trans rights are human rights.💕
As a pansexual cis woman in a straight passing relationship, I find myself constantly feeling like I need to prove my queerness especially to others in the community. I always feel like I'm not gay enough
You brought up You're Wrong About, and it got me thinking about Faye Resnick and how she was talked about during the OJ Simpson trial? Sara and Mike talk about how she was trashed for talking about her addiction and her relationship with Nicole in a vulnerable way. There's even the biphobic element because people were terrible when they found out that Faye and Nicole had a romantic encounter. Idk, it's a similar overlap of misogyny and biphobia.
I will never forget her brilliantly neurotic performance in Wag the Dog. The painfully restrained exterior just bursting into one of the FUNNIEST tirades ever committed to film (the plane crash scene) is just absolutely brilliant. She was before anything else a wonderful actor.
Note on the abuse vs incest point- I completely agree with everything you said and it is imperative that we always describe abuse as abuse. Child abuse, or any domestic abuse of children by parents or other family members, has historically been described as "incest" because child abuse is so widespread in the US that it literally didn't exist as a specific crime in the United States until 1974 and even after that was referred to as "incest" and not abuse colloquially even to this day for many people (read: white fundamentalist Christians)
I didn’t know about Anne before this video, I wasn’t super in tune with what was going on with Ellen when she came out. But I’m glad I know about her now.
May her soul rest well now.
As a victim of child sexual assault I have to say that interviewer has a spot in hell reserved for them.
So glad I found this channel!! I appreciate your nuanced takes on intersecting identities / issues 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I was confused about the media attacking her growing up. I just saw her as a woman just trying to live her life.
Chasing Amy was my relationship test movie. I stopped seeing one woman bc she said the movie "was f-word-y". My current gf (and mother of my child with non-binary name) teared up and loved it.
That’s how I felt too. I saw Anne Heche as a talented woman. I never understood the hate even after hearing the details of the crash. She deserved so much better 😢
I’m a greyacearo woman and I don’t feel comfortable coming out outside of my friend group because I have mainly dated men so the probability’s good my orientation’s gonna be written off. I’m also black so trying to avoid marginalization is always on my mind. My pan best friend has always told me I have a place where I belong. I hope the LGBT+ community continues to improve in giving support. I also hope spiritual and religious communities find ways to stop doing harm to their congregations.
As a nonbinary transguy who once thought he was a lesbian, briefly even bisexual and then figures out I am just asexual who had few greyace moments remembers the movie and pressure to pick a side and "stick with it" bs.
I always thought the movie was about young woman with low libido and asexual leanings trying to figure herself out by exploring but nobody else seem to get it.
At the end of movie Amy says something I really related too back in the day, I am paraphrasing it but I remember her saying, "I am just not sexual enough to be any sexual orientation."
But nobody else ever picks up on this when discussing the film. It's always seems like the focus is about her lack of picking a side. People just seem to assume everyone wants or likes sexual relationships and sex and if you don't something is wrong with you.
the amount of straight men who have told me they like men expecting me their token queer friend to diagnose them with gay just for me to go cool bro what do you think? still straight? cool, still straight. attraction is complicated. you tell me what label you identify with; i believe you. what you like and who you're with don't make you anything, you make yourself. i'm not here to investigate someone's "truth" because it doesn't always stay consistent or stay within the strict lines of a label. also! not my business! i could never know better than the person telling me!
I read your Mary Sue article about her. Can't wait to watch the video.
Anyone have a link to share to that?
I always pronounced it the way you did in this video. I had no idea I was mispronouncing it the entire time.
Edit: I appreciate fluidity being brought up. As well is this being completely valid, it can take a long time for a person to come to a concrete realisation about their sexuality, and this also applies to people's gender. My bestie married a man, she identified as bisexual. It wasn't until close to five years into the marriage - and during a lockdown to boot - that she realised that she is a lesbian. At first she wasn't sure if her sexuality was fluid, but she now realises that she was always a lesbian. There are so many outside factors from our families, to our peers, to the media, and more, and these can make it hard to figure out things about ourselves.
Some people might need time to work it out, some people might be fluid, and some people might come to this conclusion about themselves from an early age.
From an early age I was aware that I had romantic and sexual feelings towards people regardless of their gender. I identified as bisexual from my early teens, and now I use both bisexual, and pansexual as a means of identifying myself. It depends on the situation, and who I'm talking with to which label I will use. But they both mean the same thing to me.
I'm a cis woman, and I've been in a relationship with a cis man for just over five years now. Biphobia is often overlooked. People will belittle, tell you to "pick a side", try and tell you that you're obviously straight or gay and to come to terms with it. Which may be the case for some, including my best mate, but I think it's inexcusable to try and push someone. If they come to you and want to talk about it, and they aren't sure, that's one thing. Femme bisexuals are likely to be fetishized, and masc bisexuals get harsh treatment. I have a AMAB friend who is bisexual, who received a lot of abuse from an ex partner, who was a cis woman. She would get wildly jealous in general, but when it came to jealousy regarding him and other men, she acted with disgust. In other words, with pure homophobia.
And all this is just scratching the surface of the topics covered in this video.
Reminds me of my ex-wife.
Truly, a great video. You word things so beautifully. Thank you for this
This video is bringing back a lot of memories. Flashback to being 21 in undergrad and crying in my bathroom because I realized I had a crush on my favorite prof and deciding I could never talk to her again. Getting told by a priest "can't you just not act on your feelings." I was such a weird little nerd tomboy growing up that I got called a lesbian for YEARS and it took forever to come out to myself because it was such a huge part of how I was bullied. No one has ever mistaken me for straight, but all the homophobic bullying I experienced apparently doesn't count because I wasn't "really gay."
This was perfect. Thank you so much. I loved every minute.
Almost got me in tears right before the camera death. It... baffles me how much hate there is outside of our communities, and it's so sad to see people within our communities fighting, excluding, gatekeeping. Thank you for make this.
“It blows my mind how mean we are to each other.” Amen.
And where are we watching “Chasing Chasing Amy”? As Mo'Nique said, “I would like to see it.”
Thank you for always posting amazing content. Thank you for taking the time with this video. You're amazing and appreciated.
Thank you. I really appreciate you for doing this. It was so informative.
You are so welcome!
So glad the algorithm blessed me with your channel. Thank you for sharing your voice ❤️
I've always loved Anne Heche and her work. I had no idea how much she was going through. Thank you for this video and allowing her story to get more exposure.
Great video. A lot of things I needed to hear right now.
all of these videos lately have been awesome ♥ i will probably quote both your Ridley Scott "The Last Duel" and the "Set it Off" video in a paper about Thelma and Louise and American Road movies
i cannot wait until this one drops *so excited* (although it will probably make me so mad.....)
I started watching you casually years ago and I respected you then and I respect and enjoy your content now. Thanks for your videos! Amazing work and legacy.
Beautiful video. I loved her on Nip/Tuck and Ally McBeal and Ryan Murphy and David E. Kelley were so real for hiring her during this blacklist :(
Yeah respect them for doing that
I wouldn't give Ryan Murphy too much credit.
He had his Self Insert Character in Glee, Kurt Hummel, say that Bisexual Men aren't real and are just cowardly Gay men who can't accept themselves.
@@nekusakura6748 gross. It's a symptom of that era of gay men like men of a certain age have these sort of outdated concepts and of course it's not all of them in some younger people do as well. But I noticed the same type of biphobia in satc!
I love Princess's channel. Every video covers something that is exactly something I worry about but have never heard anyone else express so coherently.
Another absolute banger for Pride. It's poignant and heartfelt and you always make us laugh even when you're dealing with the important serious stuff.
This was amazing and I'm just basking in the validation I'm feeling right now. Ever since I was a kid I was haunted by how Heche was treated by the media. I remember these MadTV bits with alex borstein as Ellen that just.... bounced around in my head constantly when I was a teenager trying to figure out my own sexuality. The bits were all about how Heche was privileged and only cared about the money and fame but Ellen was experiencing real homophobic harm and lack of intimacy from her fake partner. I was so saddened by the news of Heche's death because she was one of the most visible representations of bisexuality I had ever seen, at least in my formative years. From the deepest part of my bisexual nerd heart, thank you so very much for this video.
1. The title of this rang in my head like a BELL, it's so true. None of the communities really showed up for her, and it was excruciating to watch.
2. Again another fantastic serving of brain food. Thank you!
3. The part at the end where you just talked over a fantastic vibe? You should make a handful of videos just like that, for people who like to just ponder things until they fall asleep. BRAIN DESSERT.
This is one of the most impactful works you’ve produced. Our demons really are self evident with tragedies like these. In times like these intersectionality really need to be at the forefront of our minds.
Thank you for this video. I couldn’t watch the whole thing as it brought back all the sad feelings I had all those years ago for Anne and the sadness from her death. I hope and pray she is flying free now having completed whatever mission she was assigned on this planet. She deserves all the crowns of heaven IMHO. 💜😇 As someone who identifies as not straight, I can say, the exclusion and suspicion was very real during those years. I hope we are learning and getting better.
Thank you for this video. I really didn't know much about Anne Heche. Thank you.
I've been out as a bi woman since 2016 and I just wanted to thank you for making this.
Thank you , for taking the time on making this viseo!! Anne is my Hero, and she didnt deserve ANY of this evilness, she was ahead of her time!! she loved,life and did the best with the cards she was dealt!!, AUTHENTICY LOOKS LIKE= ANNE HECHE!!!!! RIP, YOU WERE BEAUTIFUL INSIDE AND OUT!! SHE WAS A CHOSEN ONE
Thank you, Princess. I identify as pansexual, and it's so tiring dealing with other people's confusion, and having to explain and reexplain my sexual identity, sometimes to the same people, over and over again. It does help to know it's not just me.
I love knowing, everytime I see a video from your channel my heart skips a beat. It's a good feeling knowing you're going to learn from someone somewhat like you.
This is why it’s not a bad thing or laughable to include “ally” in the acronym. No, ally doesn’t automatically mean “straight person”. We all need to be allies. Too often right now we see members of our community completely unwilling to be allies to one another.
Outside of my family members 100% of my DV situation was ENTIRELY from other members of "the community"!
This was an absolutely fantastic break down of the problematic gaze we constantly find ourselves under. You have put words to every emotional middle finger I have felt about this in my life. Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to clap back, full throated, we out here.
This was such an interesting video to receive from you. Thank you for sharing your perspective! Anne Heche was always such an interesting person in pop culture, to me.
"Cruel" is absolutely the word I was thinking when I heard the quotes from that article. I don't know how people have the energy to be such haters about other peoples' lives, celebrity or not.
I really love your videos; I feel like each one starts off incredibly captivating, with some light humor to draw me in. Then it gets serious but still just as if not more interesting
I usually come in knowing nothing but just vaguely interested in your title, but by the end you’ve sent me down a never ending rabbit hole ❤
I hadn't heard of this woman. Thank you so much for the information.
I feel so, so heard by this video. I have so many feelings this time of year surrounding pride. I love being a part of the community and celebrating pride, but at times the biphobia from those within and outside the community can be overwhelming and can even make me feel like I’m faking it at times. Even within the community, I’ve unfortunately stopped going to events in my area because of people being bi-phobic, and the last event I went to someone asked why I was there with my boyfriend because ‘I’m obviously not gay.’
And It’s so frustrating when I hear people say that I have straight privilege. They just see me in a relationship with a man and not the experiences that I and many other bisexual people have lived. I grew up evangelical and always being told if you’re gay you’re going to hell and having to carry that baggage for so many years, along with having to be cut off from the majority of my family. Then later on in life being outed by family members and then have them turn around and say I’m doing it for attention when I split with the woman I had been seeing. On top of dealing with abuse from a man I had been married to because I’m bisexual. The house we lived in together basically turned into a prison with me constantly being watched and not being ‘allowed’ to have female friends or even have conversations with other women because of his biphobia, regardless of me being adamantly monogamous.
I’m always hopeful though that things will get better. Especially as later generations are becoming comfortable with who they are and increasing visibility and acceptance across the sexuality/gender spectrum.