Every time a new movie/show gets announced, Halo, Star Wars, Star Trek, LOTR etc. I think of Rich Evans' quote (RLM) "How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames"
I would say, there should be more encouragement to look in actions, laws, bills which could impact trade, distribution, anything which affects our systemic problems. Entertainment focuses on diversity as character.
This was such an incredible conversation! Thank you so much for stuff like this Jared. This is why I initially sub'd to Wisecrack back in the day. And this is why I have followed you here.
Race/colonialist and Gender/sex issues are a smokescreen to prevent a clear view and a dialogue on broad economic-class issues affecting the human race globally. The distinction between big government and big business is vanishing.
As a film buff I often find the politics surrounding TV & movies exhausting. I often find myself asking people who complain about movies being woke "what exactly does that mean". Usually the complaints aren't really about the message, but that the message is ham-fisted. So to me it's really that the writing or production is bad but people just glom on to the word "Woke" as a catch-all for what bothers them.
Their complaints run the range from attempting to sound reasonable to being confidently polemic. For me, the "bad writing" complaint is also just another tactical angle to resist the idea. It supports the same effect as the more extreme detractors, but is easier to sell and harder to resist. As far as I've seen, huge percentage of the commenters who have used that angle were just parroting the argument and not especially good, or consistent, judges of that evaluation.
@@Lilliathi I agree, it is easier to just feel something is wrong. Unfortunately, that feeling/sense is informed by a history of exclusion from participation and prominence for many groups. The feeling is easily highjacked to resist, even reasonable, change - things we can or should adjust to.
@@Lilliathi I mentioned a lot more than prominence in my comment(s). Your focus on that part is a kinda sketchy starting point. I knew your first comment was likely to be angling toward disagreement, but I took a chance that it may have been flexible. Judging by another of your comments, I don't think we have compatible views or objectives for discourse. 👍
As someone who has become a lot more conservative throughout the years, I found this conversation incredibly refreshing and on-point. Keep it up, these are great!
Very interesting podcast, I listened to it twice in a row. Criticism of wokeness from the left is something you don't see very often. I very much agree with Doug Lain re: wokeness not being a left wing phenomenon as it entirely seperate from any notion of class bargaining, it's better to think of it in the framework of the classical liberal notion of the atomised individual, albeit one that is sort of pieced together out of these intersectional "profiles" as Hans-Georg Moeller would put it.
"Wokeness" ruining movies is definitely annoying but what's more annoying is how the dumbest people on the left act as if Disney's Little Mermaid is any sort of victory for anything.
(Writing this 15 minutes in, but I have to get ready for work and will finish video later, and I’m hoping this is addressed). My biggest worry with labels like wokeness, SJW, and even socialists and Marxists is how they’re used to attempt to shut down discussion online (and action irl) about any uncomfortable issue. I was once accused of being an elitist member of the Frankfurt school for daring to defend subtext as authorial intent (the accuser, in asserting that we should only care about the words on the page, conflated subtext with interpretation, insinuating that critics and academics were the ones to add subtext and not authors themselves-subtext is another layer of meaning implied by the text but not directly stated, and is not some post-modernist concept). I was working at Wal-Mart in Oklahoma at the time, by the way, known safe haven of the liberal Illuminati. Anyway, from what I can tell so far, this looks to be an in depth exam of the actual problems of wokeness from a leftist perspective, so I look forward to finishing the episode tonight.
People who want to consider themselves balanced or centrists remain vulnerable to the persistent demonization of concepts and efforts on the left. They are too easily enlisted to shut the conversations down. That is kinda why the concept of wokeness is needed - to see the divisive manipulation. The term is also easily demonized bc it has ethnic connections/origins - so it is easily labeled as strange/foreign/wrong.
This seems deeply ironic, given the propensity of "the woke" to shut down discussion (online or otherwise) through labels - racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, 'straight white guy' just to name a few.
@@Der_Thrombozyt except that racism, transphobia, sexism, etc. are fairly well-defined terms whereas “wokeness,” “SJW,” Frankfurt school, and Cultural Marxists are nebulous terms at best, and to me it’s fairly telling that instead of defending an action or statement from the charge (not in the legal sense, but an informal “accusation”) of racism/transphobia/etc., the knee jerk reaction of many online is to resort to one of these nebulous insults. You can argue that the liberals (liberals are not leftists, by the way, they are centrists) are overusing the terms, the same way using the word Nazi lost meaning until the actual Nazis got online and used that meaningless-ness to shield their activities, and that’s counter-productive-if we call everyone racist for every slight they commit, the more dangerous racists like white supremacists are able to hide beneath these discussions and claim the cultural marxists are coming after whites, there’s evidence that that’s happening (gamergate itself was a front for a disgruntled ex-boyfriend to harass his ex by painting her as a slut and hiding it under a veneer of “ethics in game journalism,” others on 4chan used it as an excuse to drag Anita Sarkeesian and other women who had been critical of gamers and gamer culture).
@@Der_Thrombozyt I've actually recently seen a number of videos relevant to your concern. Tom Nicholas just put out 'Why Elon Musk Couldn't Save Free Speech'.
@@sunMMVIII No spoilers please, that one is on my watch list for later. Though I just hope he doesn't flat out deny it's happening - in his later videos he has a propensity for selective acknowledgement of facts.
If someone asks me "Why now?" For one of my writings, I'd respond, "Because it hasn't been done yet. We gotta get on this before someone else breaks through with a similar or same writing formula."
Love to hear Contrapoints getting a shout out! I'd be curious to see if Jared has any thoughts on any of her more popular videos or the approach she takes when discussing a topic.
@@NahuelPavano Not sure what you didn't like about it, granted it was a simple, single issue video that was done to make a simple argument that didn't apply to everybody. I think her most interesting videos are more along the lines of Incels, Canceling, Rowling, Peterson, Men, basically the biggest TH-cam hits, and those would be the ones that would be interesting to see Jared share his thoughts on.
@dev stuff I think it's hard to realize you're in one. I would think most people are in one to at least some degree, which is also something that is encouraged by social media since it makes it easier to target ads to consumers
Wokeness is a result of corporate liberalism. If you want to find the people who fight back against the card board cutouts in suits who run those things, you'll find them all on the left. That being said, there is nothing wrong with good representation, and all stories are told through the lens of someones worldview.
It is always the more righteous position that we should accept people for who they are (within reason, no Kanyes loving Nazis please) and work to help them achieve social equality with the rest of us. However, within the confines of capitalism, social equality isn't emancipatory as long as we all remain wage slaves. There isn't anything progressive in making sure this or that blue haired kid doesn't get dirt kicked in their face. It's just a moral position that is basic humanity to not want to see someone kicked down at for blue hair. They aren't hurting anyone for having blue hair, so it isn't acceptable for them to be harmed.
There are no "good" sides today. 9nly extremists and demagogues. Let go of polarisation, let go of looking for something or someone outside yourself to save you. We're in a collapsing empire, in times like this everything falls apart and you can't afford to place trust in anything that offers simple truths. As someone who grew up in a socialist/liberal household, a labour/liberal leaning town, and swallowed all the propressive coolaid, I can promise you that only comfortable lies reside there. Democracy is a scam, and while ever you get roped into the political partisan arguments you're just caught up in Plato's Cave. You can only ever stand alone in tbis world. Your choice is to stand afraid, or stand with courage and rely on your own intuition, wisdom and faith. Roll the dice and live, no political party will do that for you.
I am economically left of centre. But I CANT STAND the woke nonsense! At one point it did drive me towards the right, but their lunacy put me off as well. I just want a reasonable conversation about socio economic policies!
@@kagutsuchi969 Have you gone to college after 2014? Evergreen college was one of the most extreme cases, but not the only one where woke students went extremely far in pushing 'their demands'. If you think these are boogeymen, you have your head deep in the sand. And it seems you are only interested in getting others to keep you company down there.
There is this interesting debate between Chomsky and Foucault on whether we should focus on critiquing our current systems (fighting social injustice) or if we need to work on building new institutions.
That debate made me lose faith in Chomsky even before he completely fell off. It's ironic that he used to hate Marxism because he associated it with the USSR and Stalin, but now he's a full time Russian state propagandist.
I have been doing a sort of deep dive into discussions of "woke" lately, trying to understand exactly what is "woke" ideology and what are the valid criticisms of it. This video did not help at all. Neither Jared or Doug Lain could give a coherent definition nor a definitive criticism of it. This was one the worst discussions I came across, it just never really got to the subject matter but danced around it.
"Paternalistic". It should turned into an -ism to describe their ideology. I have to say what everyone fears: there's just no elegant way to reduce the difference between material leftism and progressivism/wokeism into first principles. If both are for equality between the races, why shouldn't also both be movements about telling corporations what actors to hire for their Hollywood film? If both are about the legal equality between the sexes, why shouldn't both be about dictating to Twitter artists in what (inoffensive) manner to draw female characters? It's an absurdum trap you can economically only counter with: because one side uses common sense, and the other doesn't. It's literally that. The common sense in question isn't even about the individual points wokeism makes being "objectionable", but that the common sense is the filter that separates relevant areas of concern, with irrelevant areas of private life, social affairs, community activism, manners, gossip, whatever. We have to synthetically construct hard limits: no, leftism will never intervene in how art should be expressed. No, leftism will never be about transgender rights. No, leftism will never be about what couth language one should use on Twitter. No, leftism will never ever EVER be opposed to multiculturalism and cultural appreciation, and the free sharing of culture between the peoples. These points don't source from elegant first principles. We just have to periodically add to the rulebook of ideals/ideology whenever a new storm in a teacup stirs the souls of small-minded people. Write in the margins if needed. "The 20XXs were here, we currently have this woke fad of XYZ. This addendum covers that no, leftism is not about that. Carry on, future person. xoxo" Certain things, like transgender rights, are topics completely lateral to leftism, so that it doesn't cover it -- like leftism also does not cover things like e.g. the rights of left-handed people -- should be written as an addendum/amendment into the first important pages of the (abstract/conceptual) rulebook. It's understandable that such topics deeply capture many people, but again -- domains of concern.
8:32 "Wokeness comes out of a different tradition: the Progressive Capitalist approach to politics." No. That' is patently untrue. "Wokeness" comes from the Critical Theory, which was created by the Frankfurt School. So, it's not Capitalist; it's Neo-Marxist. I'm sure Mr Lain, as (from what I gather) a traditional Marxist doesn't recognize the Critical Theory as "real Marxism," and that's fine. He doesn't have to. But, you can't possibly pretend to critique the ideology without understanding from where it came. Saying that "Wokeness" is a product of Capitalism is factually incorrect.
Also, selling fear works perfect with Capitalist agendas’. Our Living, Working, and Worried will look out for each other. We will live long and prosper
WOKE, Alt-Right, Left wing, Right wing, Progressive, Conservative ... all of these terms seem to have morphed into something very different to what they were 20 years ago.😮
Their buzzwords, they always come to just mean "you disagreed with me" or "I dislike this" eventually. That's why I try not to use them. Although in the case of alt-right and radical left I think it's because the culture war has got people doubling down more and more on their political ideologies to the point of embracing the most extremists parts of it.
This is very enlightening. Both voices were sharply contextualized in the conversation. What they said illuminated possible answers to a number of questions I’ve had.
I just went on a skin allergy website because I have a allergic reaction to I don’t know what on my arm. And now they include how the rash might look on dark skin so I think that was good. I’ve had occasional rashes like I went to a spa and I got a virulent rash after that on my wrist and used the website and back then it didn’t note how the rash looks on dark skin. So I think that’s an inclusive improvement
Enjoyed the conversation, but couldn’t get the question out of my head “Is Jared the long lost son of Doug?” I will have to listen again without video so I can focus on what they are saying.
Woke is a combination of familiar components: * Mob mentality, which provides false sense of being right (so many people can't be wrong), safety from being attacked, and the ability to blame the group for being carried away. * Mental laziness, which allows to "do the right thing" without thinking it through. * Self righteousness, which gives that warm, fuzzy feeling of being a great person while being a bully. * Incitement, esp of the easily excitable. A good example is support for Gaza. Do they support the Kurds, who actually had a country in the past, and have a distinct culture and national identity? No. Nobody pays to have them incited against Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. The government wants to keep good relations with Turkey, two wars in Iraq made it clear to everybody they don't want the U.S. army to go there a third time, etc. Attacking Israel is easy, antisemitism was always a hot product.
I only agree with one fundamental claim by Marx. Business ownership by the few is a grift. Outside of that, I really don't care for much of what I know about his ideas. I certainly don't idolize the man. I will, however, wipe the floor with the corrupt business and politics that take the fullest advantage of that grift.
Art can't have new meaning or give new meaning to people without being critical of the status quo, guys. In order for it to do that, it must shake people out of their pre-existing dynamic. You've missed the point entirely.
Marxism is blamed because it used the same dinámica of oppressor vs oppressed… but instead of class is applied to gender / race / sexual preference etc
It's just Marxist weaponised intersectionality politics. I don't see how it's difficult to see that it's been the outcome that the left were pushing for from the 60's onwards. Equality, sexual liberation, identity over philosophy, the erosion of family norms, the eraducation of churchband tradition, and lots of rights that protect people's race, religion, sexual preference, and gender. Wokeness is the outcome of left wing weaponised intersectionality politics masquerading as "progressivism". And these clowns are too blind to see it. 🤣😂🤣
I consider myself a centrist, I'm as against the woke left now as I was against the religious right in the 90's & 00's. I'll watch content from both sides and see what I like and don't like. While I'm open to listening to arguments from both sides, I find the extremes of both sides tend to be about as abhorrent as one another. I'm down with workers rights, I think capitalism needs to be reigned in so that it works for everyone... but when someone says they're a Marxist - alarm bells start going off.
That's what I found so creepy when the whole BLM thing kicked off, and how they're self proclaimed "Marxists" and if you brought it up, you were a "Racist MAGAtard" Now apparently the leaders got rich, bought a bunch of properties, and when people started asking questions they all stepped down lmao.
even your self expression against the system will just strengthen it, it’s almost best we do nothing and watch it destroy itself, but that too is a terrible reality
Well your self expression against it will probably also strengthen YOU, so out of the options it seems like what makes you better is still the better choice.
Regarding wokeness as an asset for the right. I'd like to go every entertainment studio who "participated", give them dirty looks for every far right politician win an election and say: ".........................so, ........... who f@$×ed it?" Serious note, it does infuriate me with this virtue signaling and makes me more convinced they never care and none of them talk or make posts about tackling systemic problems or bring political bills which can help with this goal.
I bought a pack of old made cards in the drug store the other day end it was a modern pack and has the game has all kinds of professions and then kids are supposed to match the profession there’s two cards from each profession like Dr. nurse ballerina truck driver this that and the other thing and they had all kinds of races represented in the card deck and they didn’t used to just FYI. It’s just good to see more races represented in this type of thing because kids play with those carts so then they think it helps them think differently about people in my opinion
This world has become as cold as an old rotting corpse and I'm over here just trying to get warm; our ship has since drifted so entirely far off course that I'm now looking for any port in this storm . In wandering through the desert upon the sands of Time our sight has become hazy and fogged; we cannot see we're blinded because we're always being distracted by the attractions that lie in the mirage . *sK*
When Amazon puts up BLACK LIVES MATTER on distribution centers it seems they are fine with wokeness as a virtue garment to hide their exploitation nature. I don’t think you will ever get a mass movement of socialists when they are constantly vexed by the White Supremacy Boogieman. Americans of ALL heritages need to unite. Wokeness will not allow it. Not confronting wokeness is EXACTLY what elitists are depending on.
Douglas is very wrong about Heidegger. Given that people either refer to Heidegger or Wittgenstein as the greatest 20th philosopher, he is probably worth reading (even if you disagree with him)
Critical Drinker is kinda entertaining but he comes at wokeness with a mallet rather than trying to find nuance With nuance being Jareds whole thing, i dont think this would be that interesting of a conversation
His videos are basically a guide to what kind of media a typical Trump supporter could self-insert into, I'd like to think Jared's stuff has more nuance than that.
Hey I'm doing a series of livestreams tearing down toxic Fandom channels like nerdrotic and critical drinker, the series is called "These People Hate Cinema" and I'm doing a liveatream today at 6:30 PM PDT
Douglas Lain calling Kamala Harris right wing!?! This shows the extent to which the Left Wing wants to disown WOKE!😅. WOKE sure has splintered and confused left wing!😅😂
37:45 The whole conversation around being woke makes sense to me when talking about politics and corporate management, when the conversation veers towards media like cinema and video games it starts to make less sense to me. Taking gamer gate and Star Wars as my examples, I'll start with Gamer Gate. The whole thing started when Anita Sarkeesian took some rather run of the mill feminist critiques that are broadly true for action movies and much of cinema and pointed them at game development. Those critiques (and I say this as an avid life long gamer) are as true for game development and the industry as whole as they are for cinema but no one had brought this much public attention to it before her and a small but vocal minority of gamers freaked out and started doxing and sending death threats en masse to any female they thought would make a good target. As a Star Wars fan I have read almost all extended universe books and comics and absolutely love almost all the video games including The Old Republic MMORPG. That said, we all know the original six films suffered from tokenism and literally ripped off Asian culture and concepts while boxing out Asians completely which is unacceptable and Lucas should've been repeatedly and loudly lambasted as a racist asshole by the fanbase for that. When I watched the movies of this new Star Wars era I first saw an open attempt to address these issues. A black character was given a more prominent role and a fuck ton of screen time, a female character was given the lead, the toxic masculinity of the cowboy tropey "flyboy" got put in their place, an acknowledgement was made about how perilously close the entire idea of droids in Star Wars comes to slavery and oh yeah ASIANS are finally included, almost everything in the anime anthology is amazing. These are all good things I never see anyone give the new Star Wars era credit for, instead I saw complaints about the lead being a marie sue about Fin being a storm trooper and getting too much screen time, about the female Asian character not letting the black guy kill himself! Meanwhile I'm over here like whoa, those aren't legit complaints that's just a bunch of misogyny and racism, my complaints were things like cutting out Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker, Jaina and Jacen solo and taking almost no direction from the extended universe at all, those types of critiques I could've gotten behind and still think are far more scathing than what ended up being sensationalized. Like when people start complaining about how movies have race quotas to fill (because there are just too many ethnic people in my milk now) I just shrug an say so what? Race is a capitalist commodity, people are racialized by the bourgeois in favor of their class interests, of course they would have quotas, as demographics change capitalism will demand it but capitalism is the problem, not "race" quotas. These people are just misdirecting their anger at shallow issues that largely mean nothing because their lives are dogshit and they don't even know there's something legitimate to point it at.
You very obviously are not an avid gamer and know nothing about Gamergate or the Tropes vs Women series. Anita Sarkeesian outright lied about the content of games and her knowledge of them to instigate a feminist attack on video games and gamers. This was the gasoline of Gamergate, but not the spark. Then a game reviewer posted an angry rant about his "developer" (if you count making a flash game as game development) girlfriend cheating on him, commonly referred to as The Zoey Post. A conspiracy theory group on 4chan, of about a dozen members, used this rant as a starting point to track how reviewers and devs were in bed with each other both literally and figuratively. Game journalists responded to this tiny 4chan group by mass publishing articles titled Gamers Are Dead, which coupled with the attention brought by Sarkeesian turned into a massive argument between feminists and gamers. It was very common for gamers to receive several times the amount of hate messages as the feminists, and many of the women that got death threats were caught sending them to themselves through proxy accounts. You talk about this issue like someone who read the Wikipedia article and never bothered to dig deeper. I lived it. For months I was harassed by brand new accounts on gaming websites. Even being called a rapist on a daily basis just for playing video games. When I tried finding out what caused all the vitriol I was told that The Zoey Post was revenge porn. Any gamer who lived through Gamergate knows from first hand experience to reject the mainstream narrative about the issue.
People think that wokeness because many people are appropriating the Label of Marxist. For example conservatives are thinking that BLM is marxist because the high status left (AKA hipster Marxists AKA Liberals) self-id as marxist and, being high status, naturally get far more attention than actual marxists and when everyone, from the people criticising wokeness to the Woke themselves, are saying that wokeness is marxist, one is naturally going to believe that wokeness is marxist. Other example breadtubers are correct in mocking right winger who think Afrocentric thing and nonbinary horror movies is Marxism. Breadtubers then proceed to make 100s of videos about Afrocentric things and nonbinary horror movies. So right wingers are dumb because they think the left is X then the life winger "proceeds to do exactly X
Amazing conversation, but i believe it would have been more productive to have it with someone who isn't in the far end of the political spectrum. Marxists, the same way as facists, have a very dogmatic view of the world, and often one who doesn't permit the actor to reach out ideas that are outside said dogma. That happens becouse fascists and marxists views of the world need said dogma becouse of many internal contradictions of the ideology itself. It would be the same thing to have an impartial analisis with a cristian about a satanic ritual. The dogma that the cristian carries only in virtue of being a cristian would make it impossible to have an impartial view about something that clashes head on with said cristian dogma. We need definitions to be able to structure our world view as close as possible to reality. What use has an political spectrum when someone like OAC gets put in the same category of Trump? None. But the same dogma that forces a marxist to view the political spectrum like this perculate to other world views, tainting them. From the get go not only he doesn't undestand the "woke" fenomena, but he aplies the definition of wokeism (to the conversation) that doesn't clash with his world views, and so, canot perceive it as a problem. It would be the same with discussing baptism of infants with a Catholic, he cannot perceive it of being whrong becouse of dogma.
Peterson commits an egregious logical fallacy, which is to judge the content and character of Marx and socialists of the past on the basis of his followers today
Worker-Owned Cooperatives. We need them instead of unions. That's what would keep Capitalism in line from within its own rules. The very notion that the solution to complex problems in a complex system can be so easily generalized to natural selection (the invisible hand of Capitalism) OR cooperation enforced by the law (Socialism) is absurd. You need people to see what rules actually help all of us as dynamic universal rules in spite of the short term goals we are naturally selected to obsess over. Lawless natural selection as a grandiose philosophy (Libertarianism) would also either mean to throw away any and all medical and agricultural advancements that are shared and pretend that we never gain an advantage by sharing OR taken for what natural selection is, you can't stop anyone from doing or trying anything, including taxing the shit out of you because of where you were born. That's what natural selection is and does. You have no philosophy at that point. You just have a naturalistic fallacy that ignores the REALITY for what it is to pretend like you are actually saying anything significant at all.
Good news. Co-ops are already legal in the US. Thanks to online banking and internet forums/social media you can start a co-op with people from all over the nation, or even the world. You don't have to wait for the government to mandate Marxism if you really want the people to own the means of production.
This "bad writing" argument is so frustrating. Most people using it are BS'ing. Many are bad writers who don't know or really care how to judge solid writing. The skilled detractors are consciously/unconsciously limiting their imaginations or just being dishonest.
For the "forced diversity" argument, those who use are disinterested in the fact that many groups have been kept out of the process. They, at least, don't care if those groups continue to be [lucky to be] kept on the margins. There's still too much "in my day" nostalgia and resistance in this video. Past media was not so perfect and magical. If change seems clunky, some of the reason for that is bc exclusion has been so normalized that the entire society is desensitized to it and inclusion stands out significantly. People are judging using a lack of imagination and flexibility.
59:00 Horrible! The Peterson and Shapiro earlier was bad, but... well both these sections illustrate how the speakers in the vid are disconnected. I'm in the wrong place.
@sunMMVIII Jared has a wall covered with people who hated the Right Wing and everything it stands for; I think he would be hard pressed to find any actual Conservative values he supports... But he's driven by bitterness towards Hollywood culture and snobbery, and he views political discourse through that spiteful lens, which loses the depth of reflection that he usually provides when discussing more aesthetic and philosophical ideas.
@@JebeckyGranjola That makes sense - especially the spite part. The sections similar to where the guest says of Walsh "I disagree with 99% of what he says, but he has charisma" (or similar) seemed shocking flippant about their content and impact. If one disagrees by 99%, that is effectively everything and they should not be worthy of your praise or promotion if you are serious.
@sunMMVIII yeah, the charisma of a Boomer dad on Facebook. If someone gets off on his seven minute hate, that's something, but to disagree with him and still like him is actually even more pathetic.
This is a good conversation but the nuance of race (whiteness) in the critiques and promotion of “wokeness” seems lacking. Y’all touch on it but also miss some components. One thing being how whiteness is operating the apparatus of woke culture in Hollywood, politics, cultures, etc. Whiteness cuts the checks. Whiteness does the product placement. Whiteness has also co-opted the moments we are in for profit and appeal.
Yes! I have great deal of respect for Jared but was incredibly disappointed with this conversation. The nuance of race is central to this conversation.
This has been my biggest complaint. Critiques on “wokeness” should be reframed as critiques on white liberalism because that’s really what seems to be talked about.
This guy did nothing to change my initial presumption that he'd be a class reductionist. Yeah, Socialists don't care about social justice... you mean Socialists like W.E.B. Du Bois, Frantz Fanon, Huey Newton, and Angela Davis? The phrase "woke" has always been specifically associated with Black Liberation, and it gained contemporary prominence with the Ferguson, Mo police protests in 2014. I can only conclude that your antipathy towards "class neutral" activism stems from a desire to be "race neutral" based on your apparent historical ignorance on this subject and equating Anti-Racism with "Progressive Capitalism." Ever hear of Recuperation? You'd think you would know it well since you've published many books about it.
Hmm, Socialists like Fanon, Dubois, Davis, and Newton were not trying to make the present more livable, they were (and are, in the case of David) trying to make a new world. They still defaulted to class (Black Skin, White Masks, for instance, is essentially rooted in Marxian and Hegelian approaches to psychology), but with the added component of race. None of them cared about social justice in the way that he phrased the definition of social justice. They cared about structural change not change in media.
What the fuck do you even mean by "class reductionist". Do you actually think we will solve racism within the system that created allowed for chattel slavery, racism, sexism. All these things will be fixed IN Capitalism?
Anti-racism is a product of Capitalism, just like racism is a product of Capitalism - equality, egalitarianism, and fraternity are the principles upon which capitalism was created, and how and why we agree that racism, treating some humans as less that others, is bad. It is not a universal moral intuition that slavery, which existed for literally THOUSANDS OF YEARS is bad, only capitalism did that.
@Damn TIL that Spartacus invented Capitalism. Also are you saying Communists can neither be racist nor anti racist? Someone better tell Marx and get him to send back the letters he wrote to Abraham Lincoln praising him for opposing slavery.
Woke means you are not sleeping. In the movie Joe vs. The volcano, Meg says to Joe (Tom) that 99 percent of the world is asleep and only 1 recent is awake with total amazement. Woke meant not sleeping.
Ya, got picked up as slang. As in "you have started paying attention" something you can't do when "asleep". Words change over time as they are used in different ways. As annoying as this can be I've come to accept it as interesting.
Gamergate was a focused harassment campaign purposefully disguised as “ethics in journalism” by the people who began it, including a disgruntled ex-boyfriend of original target. It had nothing to do with politics or political correctness, it was about people being upset that a woman MIGHT have had a sexual relationship with a games journalist at the time he wrote a review of her game (by might I mean definitely didn’t, since no review was written by that individual or anyone else at his website), and that meant they couldn’t trust games reviewers. That’s all it was. Eventually 4chan trolls added people like Anita Sarkeesian to the harassment list, but even then it was never an honest exploration of gamer culture or gaming as art-it was about attacking all criticism of gaming (too often with threats of rape or murder), even or especially the kind of intellectual criticism that all other forms of art are exposed to and strengthened by.
Likely story bro. Games journalists and game developers are just shining beacons of meritocracy and are not at all corrupt. One can see this by looking at the increased quality of video games and journalist articles that are very in touch with opinions.
@@RA-ie3ss someone didn't read the comment. Conflating individual journalists (essentially all of which somehow ended being female) with "gaming journalism" is pretty dumb. It is even more idiotic to then harass and threaten those individual journalists.
@@jamesn3122 Your right. Next time people talk about Gamergate, let's think about all journalists instead of game journalists. Clearly when people talk about gamergate and journalism they could also mean other forms of journalism.
@@RA-ie3ss Well documented story, bro. A small number of-let’s call them what they are-criminals fooled a bunch of normal gamers like you into running cover for their criminal acts of harassment. It doesn’t matter how bad games journalists are (but let’s face it, the worst they could have possibly done is not disclose that they were paid off to say a game was good or bad, something that’s happened since at least Nintendo Power, which was owned by an actual game company-or, as Jim Sterling would point out, they could write lovingly about micro transactions and loot boxes, but too many gamergaters seem to support that kind of pro-game propaganda to notice when they’re actually being played), it doesn’t disprove that the originators of Gamergate were actual criminals who dragged-in non-journalists like Sarkeesian (regardless of whether you agree with her or not, critical theory is not journalism) for no other reason than she was critical of video game tropes, which would be like the AMA going after Susan Sontag for writing “Illness As Metaphor.” For better or worse, Sarkeesian’s series was one of the first academic works that tried to discuss games as an actual art form through academic inquiry. Was her series as in depth and though provoking as the critical writings of, say, John Barth or Susan Sontag? No, probably not, but I also don’t remember Barth being sent death threats for (supposedly) saying the the novel was dead in “Literature of Exhaustion” (instead, among other things, Barth discussed the merits of virtuosity (defined in the article as “expertise and artistry” coupled with “bright aesthetic ideas and/or inspiration”) vs simply having a novel idea (the examples are the works of Borges vs the works of the Fluxus intermedia collective, which, among other things, printed novels on toilet paper-the latter being less interesting to Barth because it required no skill to produce).
@@kevintrjohnson All of you are NPCs that can't think for yourselves. Like I said. Likely story. Let's have more censorship for professional victims of harassment.
i'm not gunna listen to this but there is no difference between woke and left.... they are 1 thing. 0 way to separate cancel culture and mainstream media from leftism. 0
You missed nothing at all by not listening. Same old rehash: we haven't seen real socialism. Class war is a necessity to defend the poor. Critical theory, something maxist quote, woke is not the outcome of the left ideas... Clown show through and through.
There is nothing wrong with being "right wing" or individualist or an American Constitutionalist or classically liberal. Its only bad to not be left if your a leftist. Just like its only bad to be non-muslim if you are a muslim. You are gonna agree with a lot of right wing commentary because the right wing is right alot lol
Doesn't that apply to every group? It's only bad to be anything, if you are something else. If you're a Capitalist, don't you think it's bad to be a Socialist because they want to abolish Capitalism?
A broken clock is right twice a day. Even a blind pig finds slop sometimes. People say this stuff but then they don't have anything clever when it's obvious whatever they are referring to is right more than twice a day.
@Poker Mitten I don't get this comment either. 'A broken clock' idiom doesn't refer to someone being correct infrequently, it means someone that was incidentally correct, counter to where thier reasoning should lead to.
I'm sorry, Jared--I like you and your analysis, but when you say things like "I have a hard time disagreeing" with right-wing outrage grifters screaming about brown people in Star Wars, it undermines my ability to take your views seriously. And then your guest moves onto a very "get off my lawn" sort of analysis. The older we get, the easier it is to dislike the stuff that the younger generations make. And "the wokeness is a symptom of its exhaustion"? I mean, c'mon. This interview certainly made me less socialist.
Absolutely love the stuff you've been putting out Jared. Conversations that need to be had without the polarization. Love the channel.
Every time a new movie/show gets announced, Halo, Star Wars, Star Trek, LOTR etc.
I think of Rich Evans' quote (RLM)
"How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames"
Or Mike saying that all movies are theme park rides now.
Jared and his guests are doing great work to promote nuanced discussion. Big ups!
Yeah Jared has always been someone I liked to hear from. This is a great discussion
I want social justice but I'm fed up with identity politics. There has to be a better way
I would say, there should be more encouragement to look in actions, laws, bills which could impact trade, distribution, anything which affects our systemic problems. Entertainment focuses on diversity as character.
This was such an incredible conversation! Thank you so much for stuff like this Jared. This is why I initially sub'd to Wisecrack back in the day. And this is why I have followed you here.
There’s a difference between activism and being woke. One has substance, the other has a more self serving vibe to it
Depends on the activism, there's a lot of virtue signalling "activism" with no thought or substance behind it these days...
Race/colonialist and Gender/sex issues are a smokescreen to prevent a clear view and a dialogue on broad economic-class issues affecting the human race globally. The distinction between big government and big business is vanishing.
This also serves to prove that we arent talking TO each other but we are shouting over each other and speaking only to the comverted.
As a film buff I often find the politics surrounding TV & movies exhausting. I often find myself asking people who complain about movies being woke "what exactly does that mean". Usually the complaints aren't really about the message, but that the message is ham-fisted. So to me it's really that the writing or production is bad but people just glom on to the word "Woke" as a catch-all for what bothers them.
Their complaints run the range from attempting to sound reasonable to being confidently polemic. For me, the "bad writing" complaint is also just another tactical angle to resist the idea. It supports the same effect as the more extreme detractors, but is easier to sell and harder to resist. As far as I've seen, huge percentage of the commenters who have used that angle were just parroting the argument and not especially good, or consistent, judges of that evaluation.
@@sunMMVIII
Maybe it's just easier to feel something's wrong than to put it into words?
@@Lilliathi I agree, it is easier to just feel something is wrong. Unfortunately, that feeling/sense is informed by a history of exclusion from participation and prominence for many groups. The feeling is easily highjacked to resist, even reasonable, change - things we can or should adjust to.
@@sunMMVIII
I'm all for participation, but I don't know what you mean by prominence. We're shooting for equality right?
@@Lilliathi I mentioned a lot more than prominence in my comment(s). Your focus on that part is a kinda sketchy starting point.
I knew your first comment was likely to be angling toward disagreement, but I took a chance that it may have been flexible.
Judging by another of your comments, I don't think we have compatible views or objectives for discourse. 👍
As someone who has become a lot more conservative throughout the years, I found this conversation incredibly refreshing and on-point. Keep it up, these are great!
Very interesting podcast, I listened to it twice in a row. Criticism of wokeness from the left is something you don't see very often. I very much agree with Doug Lain re: wokeness not being a left wing phenomenon as it entirely seperate from any notion of class bargaining, it's better to think of it in the framework of the classical liberal notion of the atomised individual, albeit one that is sort of pieced together out of these intersectional "profiles" as Hans-Georg Moeller would put it.
Jared this conversation was so dense this is my third time watching it. Love it.
"Wokeness" ruining movies is definitely annoying but what's more annoying is how the dumbest people on the left act as if Disney's Little Mermaid is any sort of victory for anything.
Jared, you're the man, thanks for the content. Hell of a job
I think there's a good kind of woke and a toxic kind of woke.
Very interesting stuff. Subscribed to Lain! Keep up the great work Jared. Really loving this stuff
(Writing this 15 minutes in, but I have to get ready for work and will finish video later, and I’m hoping this is addressed). My biggest worry with labels like wokeness, SJW, and even socialists and Marxists is how they’re used to attempt to shut down discussion online (and action irl) about any uncomfortable issue. I was once accused of being an elitist member of the Frankfurt school for daring to defend subtext as authorial intent (the accuser, in asserting that we should only care about the words on the page, conflated subtext with interpretation, insinuating that critics and academics were the ones to add subtext and not authors themselves-subtext is another layer of meaning implied by the text but not directly stated, and is not some post-modernist concept). I was working at Wal-Mart in Oklahoma at the time, by the way, known safe haven of the liberal Illuminati. Anyway, from what I can tell so far, this looks to be an in depth exam of the actual problems of wokeness from a leftist perspective, so I look forward to finishing the episode tonight.
People who want to consider themselves balanced or centrists remain vulnerable to the persistent demonization of concepts and efforts on the left. They are too easily enlisted to shut the conversations down. That is kinda why the concept of wokeness is needed - to see the divisive manipulation. The term is also easily demonized bc it has ethnic connections/origins - so it is easily labeled as strange/foreign/wrong.
This seems deeply ironic, given the propensity of "the woke" to shut down discussion (online or otherwise) through labels - racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, 'straight white guy' just to name a few.
@@Der_Thrombozyt except that racism, transphobia, sexism, etc. are fairly well-defined terms whereas “wokeness,” “SJW,” Frankfurt school, and Cultural Marxists are nebulous terms at best, and to me it’s fairly telling that instead of defending an action or statement from the charge (not in the legal sense, but an informal “accusation”) of racism/transphobia/etc., the knee jerk reaction of many online is to resort to one of these nebulous insults. You can argue that the liberals (liberals are not leftists, by the way, they are centrists) are overusing the terms, the same way using the word Nazi lost meaning until the actual Nazis got online and used that meaningless-ness to shield their activities, and that’s counter-productive-if we call everyone racist for every slight they commit, the more dangerous racists like white supremacists are able to hide beneath these discussions and claim the cultural marxists are coming after whites, there’s evidence that that’s happening (gamergate itself was a front for a disgruntled ex-boyfriend to harass his ex by painting her as a slut and hiding it under a veneer of “ethics in game journalism,” others on 4chan used it as an excuse to drag Anita Sarkeesian and other women who had been critical of gamers and gamer culture).
@@Der_Thrombozyt I've actually recently seen a number of videos relevant to your concern. Tom Nicholas just put out 'Why Elon Musk Couldn't Save Free Speech'.
@@sunMMVIII No spoilers please, that one is on my watch list for later.
Though I just hope he doesn't flat out deny it's happening - in his later videos he has a propensity for selective acknowledgement of facts.
Great hair day “prominent leftist” Doug!
Thanks you, Shani!
Loved the jokes towards the end. Great discussion
If someone asks me "Why now?" For one of my writings, I'd respond, "Because it hasn't been done yet. We gotta get on this before someone else breaks through with a similar or same writing formula."
Love to hear Contrapoints getting a shout out! I'd be curious to see if Jared has any thoughts on any of her more popular videos or the approach she takes when discussing a topic.
The voting video is trash.
@@NahuelPavano Not sure what you didn't like about it, granted it was a simple, single issue video that was done to make a simple argument that didn't apply to everybody. I think her most interesting videos are more along the lines of Incels, Canceling, Rowling, Peterson, Men, basically the biggest TH-cam hits, and those would be the ones that would be interesting to see Jared share his thoughts on.
@dev stuff I think it's hard to realize you're in one. I would think most people are in one to at least some degree, which is also something that is encouraged by social media since it makes it easier to target ads to consumers
I fell for Trump because I hated wokeness. Jared makes me feel like I could be on the left.
Wokeness is a result of corporate liberalism. If you want to find the people who fight back against the card board cutouts in suits who run those things, you'll find them all on the left.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with good representation, and all stories are told through the lens of someones worldview.
It is always the more righteous position that we should accept people for who they are (within reason, no Kanyes loving Nazis please) and work to help them achieve social equality with the rest of us. However, within the confines of capitalism, social equality isn't emancipatory as long as we all remain wage slaves. There isn't anything progressive in making sure this or that blue haired kid doesn't get dirt kicked in their face. It's just a moral position that is basic humanity to not want to see someone kicked down at for blue hair. They aren't hurting anyone for having blue hair, so it isn't acceptable for them to be harmed.
There are no "good" sides today. 9nly extremists and demagogues.
Let go of polarisation, let go of looking for something or someone outside yourself to save you.
We're in a collapsing empire, in times like this everything falls apart and you can't afford to place trust in anything that offers simple truths.
As someone who grew up in a socialist/liberal household, a labour/liberal leaning town, and swallowed all the propressive coolaid, I can promise you that only comfortable lies reside there.
Democracy is a scam, and while ever you get roped into the political partisan arguments you're just caught up in Plato's Cave.
You can only ever stand alone in tbis world. Your choice is to stand afraid, or stand with courage and rely on your own intuition, wisdom and faith.
Roll the dice and live, no political party will do that for you.
@@X_TheHuntsman_XYEA!
Huh? Have you figured out what wokeness is yet? It's like when they called us SJW (social justice warriors). Now how is it an insult to want equality?
I am economically left of centre. But I CANT STAND the woke nonsense! At one point it did drive me towards the right, but their lunacy put me off as well. I just want a reasonable conversation about socio economic policies!
How about a reasonable conversation as to why the woke scare and cancel culture boogeymen are culture war nonsense perpetuated by bigots?
🎶 Clowns to left of me, jokers to the right here I am. Stuck in the middle with you 🎶 🤣😂🤣
The middle way is a narrow path. As thin as a razors edge!
@@angryherbalgerbil Haha, I'm listening to this song now!
@@kagutsuchi969 Have you gone to college after 2014? Evergreen college was one of the most extreme cases, but not the only one where woke students went extremely far in pushing 'their demands'.
If you think these are boogeymen, you have your head deep in the sand. And it seems you are only interested in getting others to keep you company down there.
There is this interesting debate between Chomsky and Foucault on whether we should focus on critiquing our current systems (fighting social injustice) or if we need to work on building new institutions.
That debate made me lose faith in Chomsky even before he completely fell off. It's ironic that he used to hate Marxism because he associated it with the USSR and Stalin, but now he's a full time Russian state propagandist.
The algorithm showed me Rick Roderick
I know a sjw in la. She was insufferable, she was an example of that definition of wokeness Jared just read from. John mcwhorter
Jared bringing back the 80s male perm.
I guess you could say Hollywood wokeness is like the Head and Shoulders product placement in the Evolution movie.
Great content keep up the great work! Can't wait for more 🤠
I have been doing a sort of deep dive into discussions of "woke" lately, trying to understand exactly what is "woke" ideology and what are the valid criticisms of it. This video did not help at all. Neither Jared or Doug Lain could give a coherent definition nor a definitive criticism of it. This was one the worst discussions I came across, it just never really got to the subject matter but danced around it.
And all of their attempts at it are dishonest.
I am a kingist, Rodney king, why can’t we all just get along. Lols
Have no idea why this guy has left Wisecrack - but I miss him there!
Always great to listen to mr. Lain.
"Paternalistic". It should turned into an -ism to describe their ideology.
I have to say what everyone fears: there's just no elegant way to reduce the difference between material leftism and progressivism/wokeism into first principles.
If both are for equality between the races, why shouldn't also both be movements about telling corporations what actors to hire for their Hollywood film? If both are about the legal equality between the sexes, why shouldn't both be about dictating to Twitter artists in what (inoffensive) manner to draw female characters?
It's an absurdum trap you can economically only counter with: because one side uses common sense, and the other doesn't. It's literally that. The common sense in question isn't even about the individual points wokeism makes being "objectionable", but that the common sense is the filter that separates relevant areas of concern, with irrelevant areas of private life, social affairs, community activism, manners, gossip, whatever.
We have to synthetically construct hard limits: no, leftism will never intervene in how art should be expressed. No, leftism will never be about transgender rights. No, leftism will never be about what couth language one should use on Twitter.
No, leftism will never ever EVER be opposed to multiculturalism and cultural appreciation, and the free sharing of culture between the peoples.
These points don't source from elegant first principles. We just have to periodically add to the rulebook of ideals/ideology whenever a new storm in a teacup stirs the souls of small-minded people. Write in the margins if needed. "The 20XXs were here, we currently have this woke fad of XYZ. This addendum covers that no, leftism is not about that. Carry on, future person. xoxo"
Certain things, like transgender rights, are topics completely lateral to leftism, so that it doesn't cover it -- like leftism also does not cover things like e.g. the rights of left-handed people -- should be written as an addendum/amendment into the first important pages of the (abstract/conceptual) rulebook. It's understandable that such topics deeply capture many people, but again -- domains of concern.
8:32 "Wokeness comes out of a different tradition: the Progressive Capitalist approach to politics." No. That' is patently untrue. "Wokeness" comes from the Critical Theory, which was created by the Frankfurt School. So, it's not Capitalist; it's Neo-Marxist.
I'm sure Mr Lain, as (from what I gather) a traditional Marxist doesn't recognize the Critical Theory as "real Marxism," and that's fine. He doesn't have to. But, you can't possibly pretend to critique the ideology without understanding from where it came. Saying that "Wokeness" is a product of Capitalism is factually incorrect.
Lain gets basically everything wrong here. He's known for that. Strawmen everywhere.
Which Doctor would you say, conveys the message the best?
here's a guest suggestion: Steven Bonnell II
He streams on YT these days.
Also, selling fear works perfect with Capitalist agendas’.
Our Living, Working, and Worried will look out for each other. We will live long and prosper
this is very cathartic
You guys should really have James Lindsey on.
Dudes got much more intense energy than these two in the content I have seen. I like him tho.
Lenin argued in favor of wokeness. He called it the Tribune of the People in 1905. But I guess he was just some bourgeois philosopher 🤣🤣🤣
The point about Human Resource departments in a Capitalist structure… neutered. Nerfed at best
WOKE, Alt-Right, Left wing, Right wing, Progressive, Conservative ... all of these terms seem to have morphed into something very different to what they were 20 years ago.😮
Their buzzwords, they always come to just mean "you disagreed with me" or "I dislike this" eventually. That's why I try not to use them. Although in the case of alt-right and radical left I think it's because the culture war has got people doubling down more and more on their political ideologies to the point of embracing the most extremists parts of it.
Really glad I watched this; a very interesting conversation, and I subscribed to Sublation to hear more of Doug. Great stuff, guys.
This is very enlightening. Both voices were sharply contextualized in the conversation. What they said illuminated possible answers to a number of questions I’ve had.
I just went on a skin allergy website because I have a allergic reaction to I don’t know what on my arm. And now they include how the rash might look on dark skin so I think that was good. I’ve had occasional rashes like I went to a spa and I got a virulent rash after that on my wrist and used the website and back then it didn’t note how the rash looks on dark skin. So I think that’s an inclusive improvement
Peterson understands Stalinist Russia very well, but many people conflate these terms, including the Stalinists.
Enjoyed the conversation, but couldn’t get the question out of my head “Is Jared the long lost son of Doug?” I will have to listen again without video so I can focus on what they are saying.
Make the green M&M hot again.
Sectarian socialists talking about "freedom" is laughable, but he makes a great point about Wokeism being a capitalist product.
Woke is a combination of familiar components:
* Mob mentality, which provides false sense of being right (so many people can't be wrong), safety from being attacked, and the ability to blame the group for being carried away.
* Mental laziness, which allows to "do the right thing" without thinking it through.
* Self righteousness, which gives that warm, fuzzy feeling of being a great person while being a bully.
* Incitement, esp of the easily excitable.
A good example is support for Gaza. Do they support the Kurds, who actually had a country in the past, and have a distinct culture and national identity? No. Nobody pays to have them incited against Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. The government wants to keep good relations with Turkey, two wars in Iraq made it clear to everybody they don't want the U.S. army to go there a third time, etc. Attacking Israel is easy, antisemitism was always a hot product.
I only agree with one fundamental claim by Marx. Business ownership by the few is a grift. Outside of that, I really don't care for much of what I know about his ideas. I certainly don't idolize the man. I will, however, wipe the floor with the corrupt business and politics that take the fullest advantage of that grift.
Hypocrisy built in. your pissing in the wind.
Art can't have new meaning or give new meaning to people without being critical of the status quo, guys. In order for it to do that, it must shake people out of their pre-existing dynamic. You've missed the point entirely.
I like the one where they found out orphanages in India or other their world countries were fake and were grifting heavily.
Wasup homies
Wow really great video and conversation it looks great to see society through others.
Marxism is blamed because it used the same dinámica of oppressor vs oppressed… but instead of class is applied to gender / race / sexual preference etc
It's just Marxist weaponised intersectionality politics.
I don't see how it's difficult to see that it's been the outcome that the left were pushing for from the 60's onwards. Equality, sexual liberation, identity over philosophy, the erosion of family norms, the eraducation of churchband tradition, and lots of rights that protect people's race, religion, sexual preference, and gender.
Wokeness is the outcome of left wing weaponised intersectionality politics masquerading as "progressivism".
And these clowns are too blind to see it. 🤣😂🤣
Interesting discussion, although I expected wokeism to be central to the conversation based on the title
I consider myself a centrist, I'm as against the woke left now as I was against the religious right in the 90's & 00's. I'll watch content from both sides and see what I like and don't like. While I'm open to listening to arguments from both sides, I find the extremes of both sides tend to be about as abhorrent as one another.
I'm down with workers rights, I think capitalism needs to be reigned in so that it works for everyone... but when someone says they're a Marxist - alarm bells start going off.
th-cam.com/video/fZ4nvCVAGw0/w-d-xo.html
That's what I found so creepy when the whole BLM thing kicked off, and how they're self proclaimed "Marxists" and if you brought it up, you were a "Racist MAGAtard"
Now apparently the leaders got rich, bought a bunch of properties, and when people started asking questions they all stepped down lmao.
Lol ok
@@jamesn3122 Man, this reply was totally worth the notification...
why do alarm bells go off
even your self expression against the system will just strengthen it, it’s almost best we do nothing and watch it destroy itself, but that too is a terrible reality
Well your self expression against it will probably also strengthen YOU, so out of the options it seems like what makes you better is still the better choice.
I’m not smart on this politics stuff, but the moment I can feel a story ins t trying to be a story and it’s preaching to me I just shut off
Regarding wokeness as an asset for the right. I'd like to go every entertainment studio who "participated", give them dirty looks for every far right politician win an election and say: ".........................so, ........... who f@$×ed it?"
Serious note, it does infuriate me with this virtue signaling and makes me more convinced they never care and none of them talk or make posts about tackling systemic problems or bring political bills which can help with this goal.
I bought a pack of old made cards in the drug store the other day end it was a modern pack and has the game has all kinds of professions and then kids are supposed to match the profession there’s two cards from each profession like Dr. nurse ballerina truck driver this that and the other thing and they had all kinds of races represented in the card deck and they didn’t used to just FYI. It’s just good to see more races represented in this type of thing because kids play with those carts so then they think it helps them think differently about people in my opinion
This world has become as cold
as an old rotting corpse
and I'm over here just trying to get warm;
our ship has since drifted
so entirely far off course
that I'm now looking for any port
in this storm .
In wandering through the desert
upon the sands of Time
our sight has become hazy
and fogged;
we cannot see we're blinded
because we're always being distracted
by the attractions
that lie in the mirage . *sK*
When Amazon puts up BLACK LIVES MATTER on distribution centers it seems they are fine with wokeness as a virtue garment to hide their exploitation nature. I don’t think you will ever get a mass movement of socialists when they are constantly vexed by the White Supremacy Boogieman. Americans of ALL heritages need to unite. Wokeness will not allow it. Not confronting wokeness is EXACTLY what elitists are depending on.
Pog
Douglas is very wrong about Heidegger. Given that people either refer to Heidegger or Wittgenstein as the greatest 20th philosopher, he is probably worth reading (even if you disagree with him)
I'd like to see Jarad and the Critical Drinker go at it. It's like they are on the same page but they come at it from a different angle.
The critical drinker isn’t that interesting. His trait is being angry with wokes.
Critical Drinker is kinda entertaining but he comes at wokeness with a mallet rather than trying to find nuance With nuance being Jareds whole thing, i dont think this would be that interesting of a conversation
His videos are basically a guide to what kind of media a typical Trump supporter could self-insert into, I'd like to think Jared's stuff has more nuance than that.
Hey I'm doing a series of livestreams tearing down toxic Fandom channels like nerdrotic and critical drinker, the series is called "These People Hate Cinema" and I'm doing a liveatream today at 6:30 PM PDT
Douglas Lain calling Kamala Harris right wing!?! This shows the extent to which the Left Wing wants to disown WOKE!😅. WOKE sure has splintered and confused left wing!😅😂
37:45 The whole conversation around being woke makes sense to me when talking about politics and corporate management, when the conversation veers towards media like cinema and video games it starts to make less sense to me.
Taking gamer gate and Star Wars as my examples, I'll start with Gamer Gate. The whole thing started when Anita Sarkeesian took some rather run of the mill feminist critiques that are broadly true for action movies and much of cinema and pointed them at game development. Those critiques (and I say this as an avid life long gamer) are as true for game development and the industry as whole as they are for cinema but no one had brought this much public attention to it before her and a small but vocal minority of gamers freaked out and started doxing and sending death threats en masse to any female they thought would make a good target.
As a Star Wars fan I have read almost all extended universe books and comics and absolutely love almost all the video games including The Old Republic MMORPG. That said, we all know the original six films suffered from tokenism and literally ripped off Asian culture and concepts while boxing out Asians completely which is unacceptable and Lucas should've been repeatedly and loudly lambasted as a racist asshole by the fanbase for that. When I watched the movies of this new Star Wars era I first saw an open attempt to address these issues. A black character was given a more prominent role and a fuck ton of screen time, a female character was given the lead, the toxic masculinity of the cowboy tropey "flyboy" got put in their place, an acknowledgement was made about how perilously close the entire idea of droids in Star Wars comes to slavery and oh yeah ASIANS are finally included, almost everything in the anime anthology is amazing. These are all good things I never see anyone give the new Star Wars era credit for, instead I saw complaints about the lead being a marie sue about Fin being a storm trooper and getting too much screen time, about the female Asian character not letting the black guy kill himself! Meanwhile I'm over here like whoa, those aren't legit complaints that's just a bunch of misogyny and racism, my complaints were things like cutting out Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker, Jaina and Jacen solo and taking almost no direction from the extended universe at all, those types of critiques I could've gotten behind and still think are far more scathing than what ended up being sensationalized. Like when people start complaining about how movies have race quotas to fill (because there are just too many ethnic people in my milk now) I just shrug an say so what? Race is a capitalist commodity, people are racialized by the bourgeois in favor of their class interests, of course they would have quotas, as demographics change capitalism will demand it but capitalism is the problem, not "race" quotas.
These people are just misdirecting their anger at shallow issues that largely mean nothing because their lives are dogshit and they don't even know there's something legitimate to point it at.
You very obviously are not an avid gamer and know nothing about Gamergate or the Tropes vs Women series. Anita Sarkeesian outright lied about the content of games and her knowledge of them to instigate a feminist attack on video games and gamers. This was the gasoline of Gamergate, but not the spark. Then a game reviewer posted an angry rant about his "developer" (if you count making a flash game as game development) girlfriend cheating on him, commonly referred to as The Zoey Post. A conspiracy theory group on 4chan, of about a dozen members, used this rant as a starting point to track how reviewers and devs were in bed with each other both literally and figuratively. Game journalists responded to this tiny 4chan group by mass publishing articles titled Gamers Are Dead, which coupled with the attention brought by Sarkeesian turned into a massive argument between feminists and gamers. It was very common for gamers to receive several times the amount of hate messages as the feminists, and many of the women that got death threats were caught sending them to themselves through proxy accounts.
You talk about this issue like someone who read the Wikipedia article and never bothered to dig deeper. I lived it. For months I was harassed by brand new accounts on gaming websites. Even being called a rapist on a daily basis just for playing video games. When I tried finding out what caused all the vitriol I was told that The Zoey Post was revenge porn. Any gamer who lived through Gamergate knows from first hand experience to reject the mainstream narrative about the issue.
Dude, the issue is deeper than gamers and star wars... Like, come on, you really went on a rant over that
People think that wokeness because many people are appropriating the Label of Marxist. For example conservatives are thinking that BLM is marxist because the high status left (AKA hipster Marxists AKA Liberals) self-id as marxist and, being high status, naturally get far more attention than actual marxists and when everyone, from the people criticising wokeness to the Woke themselves, are saying that wokeness is marxist, one is naturally going to believe that wokeness is marxist.
Other example breadtubers are correct in mocking right winger who think Afrocentric thing and nonbinary horror movies is Marxism. Breadtubers then proceed to make 100s of videos about Afrocentric things and nonbinary horror movies. So right wingers are dumb because they think the left is X then the life winger "proceeds to do exactly X
Amazing conversation, but i believe it would have been more productive to have it with someone who isn't in the far end of the political spectrum. Marxists, the same way as facists, have a very dogmatic view of the world, and often one who doesn't permit the actor to reach out ideas that are outside said dogma. That happens becouse fascists and marxists views of the world need said dogma becouse of many internal contradictions of the ideology itself.
It would be the same thing to have an impartial analisis with a cristian about a satanic ritual. The dogma that the cristian carries only in virtue of being a cristian would make it impossible to have an impartial view about something that clashes head on with said cristian dogma.
We need definitions to be able to structure our world view as close as possible to reality. What use has an political spectrum when someone like OAC gets put in the same category of Trump? None. But the same dogma that forces a marxist to view the political spectrum like this perculate to other world views, tainting them.
From the get go not only he doesn't undestand the "woke" fenomena, but he aplies the definition of wokeism (to the conversation) that doesn't clash with his world views, and so, canot perceive it as a problem. It would be the same with discussing baptism of infants with a Catholic, he cannot perceive it of being whrong becouse of dogma.
th-cam.com/video/fZ4nvCVAGw0/w-d-xo.html
The people in the comments of sublation media called me a bootlicker for the "stalinist" DSA for saying nomikk konst should drop out the race lol
Weird. Was that during a livestream?
I think Peterson may have been better prepared for the Žižek debate if he hadn't been going through a prescription drug addiction at the time.
Peterson commits an egregious logical fallacy, which is to judge the content and character of Marx and socialists of the past on the basis of his followers today
@@HahaDamnyou mean the historic marxists of maoist China Or the sowjet-union??? 😂😂😂
Those were great guys
Doubt it. Peterson has never been able to debate real smart people. He always tilts at strawmen.
Worker-Owned Cooperatives. We need them instead of unions. That's what would keep Capitalism in line from within its own rules.
The very notion that the solution to complex problems in a complex system can be so easily generalized to natural selection (the invisible hand of Capitalism) OR cooperation enforced by the law (Socialism) is absurd. You need people to see what rules actually help all of us as dynamic universal rules in spite of the short term goals we are naturally selected to obsess over.
Lawless natural selection as a grandiose philosophy (Libertarianism) would also either mean to throw away any and all medical and agricultural advancements that are shared and pretend that we never gain an advantage by sharing OR taken for what natural selection is, you can't stop anyone from doing or trying anything, including taxing the shit out of you because of where you were born.
That's what natural selection is and does. You have no philosophy at that point. You just have a naturalistic fallacy that ignores the REALITY for what it is to pretend like you are actually saying anything significant at all.
Good news. Co-ops are already legal in the US. Thanks to online banking and internet forums/social media you can start a co-op with people from all over the nation, or even the world. You don't have to wait for the government to mandate Marxism if you really want the people to own the means of production.
@@MrDj232 Exactly. Next step, connect to enough people to start one out of common interests.
Socialist Avengers slowly assembling!
"We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune..."
Slowly is the right word! 🤣😂🤣
What do we want?
We don't know!
When do we want it?
When we're told to!
Did this guy just claim that Kamala Harris is "on the right"?
Wow. That's totally unhinged.
Contrepoints and Walsh, agree.
The left is ruining star wars.
Serves the left right. You make your bed, you sleep in it 🤣😂🤣
Star Wars was always lefty. Lucas has always said so. The Evil Empire = America. His words.
@@armorclasshero2103 So Luke was always evil on the original star wars because is a white male.
This "bad writing" argument is so frustrating. Most people using it are BS'ing. Many are bad writers who don't know or really care how to judge solid writing. The skilled detractors are consciously/unconsciously limiting their imaginations or just being dishonest.
For the "forced diversity" argument, those who use are disinterested in the fact that many groups have been kept out of the process. They, at least, don't care if those groups continue to be [lucky to be] kept on the margins.
There's still too much "in my day" nostalgia and resistance in this video. Past media was not so perfect and magical. If change seems clunky, some of the reason for that is bc exclusion has been so normalized that the entire society is desensitized to it and inclusion stands out significantly. People are judging using a lack of imagination and flexibility.
59:00 Horrible! The Peterson and Shapiro earlier was bad, but... well both these sections illustrate how the speakers in the vid are disconnected. I'm in the wrong place.
@sunMMVIII Jared has a wall covered with people who hated the Right Wing and everything it stands for; I think he would be hard pressed to find any actual Conservative values he supports... But he's driven by bitterness towards Hollywood culture and snobbery, and he views political discourse through that spiteful lens, which loses the depth of reflection that he usually provides when discussing more aesthetic and philosophical ideas.
@@JebeckyGranjola That makes sense - especially the spite part.
The sections similar to where the guest says of Walsh "I disagree with 99% of what he says, but he has charisma" (or similar) seemed shocking flippant about their content and impact. If one disagrees by 99%, that is effectively everything and they should not be worthy of your praise or promotion if you are serious.
@sunMMVIII yeah, the charisma of a Boomer dad on Facebook. If someone gets off on his seven minute hate, that's something, but to disagree with him and still like him is actually even more pathetic.
This is a good conversation but the nuance of race (whiteness) in the critiques and promotion of “wokeness” seems lacking. Y’all touch on it but also miss some components. One thing being how whiteness is operating the apparatus of woke culture in Hollywood, politics, cultures, etc. Whiteness cuts the checks. Whiteness does the product placement. Whiteness has also co-opted the moments we are in for profit and appeal.
The video's approach is cherry-picking voices that support their views on "wokeness".
Jewish people are white now?
Yes! I have great deal of respect for Jared but was incredibly disappointed with this conversation. The nuance of race is central to this conversation.
Wokeness has been completely co-opted from its origins in Black Liberation and that perspective is definitely lacking
This has been my biggest complaint. Critiques on “wokeness” should be reframed as critiques on white liberalism because that’s really what seems to be talked about.
This guy did nothing to change my initial presumption that he'd be a class reductionist. Yeah, Socialists don't care about social justice... you mean Socialists like W.E.B. Du Bois, Frantz Fanon, Huey Newton, and Angela Davis? The phrase "woke" has always been specifically associated with Black Liberation, and it gained contemporary prominence with the Ferguson, Mo police protests in 2014. I can only conclude that your antipathy towards "class neutral" activism stems from a desire to be "race neutral" based on your apparent historical ignorance on this subject and equating Anti-Racism with "Progressive Capitalism." Ever hear of Recuperation? You'd think you would know it well since you've published many books about it.
Hmm, Socialists like Fanon, Dubois, Davis, and Newton were not trying to make the present more livable, they were (and are, in the case of David) trying to make a new world. They still defaulted to class (Black Skin, White Masks, for instance, is essentially rooted in Marxian and Hegelian approaches to psychology), but with the added component of race. None of them cared about social justice in the way that he phrased the definition of social justice. They cared about structural change not change in media.
What the fuck do you even mean by "class reductionist". Do you actually think we will solve racism within the system that created allowed for chattel slavery, racism, sexism. All these things will be fixed IN Capitalism?
Anti-racism is a product of Capitalism, just like racism is a product of Capitalism - equality, egalitarianism, and fraternity are the principles upon which capitalism was created, and how and why we agree that racism, treating some humans as less that others, is bad. It is not a universal moral intuition that slavery, which existed for literally THOUSANDS OF YEARS is bad, only capitalism did that.
@Damn TIL that Spartacus invented Capitalism. Also are you saying Communists can neither be racist nor anti racist? Someone better tell Marx and get him to send back the letters he wrote to Abraham Lincoln praising him for opposing slavery.
@@JebeckyGranjola do you want to read what I wrote? I never said socialists couldn't be anti-racist lol.
Woke means you are not sleeping. In the movie Joe vs. The volcano, Meg says to Joe (Tom) that 99 percent of the world is asleep and only 1 recent is awake with total amazement. Woke meant not sleeping.
Ya, got picked up as slang. As in "you have started paying attention" something you can't do when "asleep". Words change over time as they are used in different ways. As annoying as this can be I've come to accept it as interesting.
3:17 woke means identiterian left.
Gamergate was a focused harassment campaign purposefully disguised as “ethics in journalism” by the people who began it, including a disgruntled ex-boyfriend of original target. It had nothing to do with politics or political correctness, it was about people being upset that a woman MIGHT have had a sexual relationship with a games journalist at the time he wrote a review of her game (by might I mean definitely didn’t, since no review was written by that individual or anyone else at his website), and that meant they couldn’t trust games reviewers. That’s all it was. Eventually 4chan trolls added people like Anita Sarkeesian to the harassment list, but even then it was never an honest exploration of gamer culture or gaming as art-it was about attacking all criticism of gaming (too often with threats of rape or murder), even or especially the kind of intellectual criticism that all other forms of art are exposed to and strengthened by.
Likely story bro. Games journalists and game developers are just shining beacons of meritocracy and are not at all corrupt. One can see this by looking at the increased quality of video games and journalist articles that are very in touch with opinions.
@@RA-ie3ss someone didn't read the comment. Conflating individual journalists (essentially all of which somehow ended being female) with "gaming journalism" is pretty dumb. It is even more idiotic to then harass and threaten those individual journalists.
@@jamesn3122 Your right. Next time people talk about Gamergate, let's think about all journalists instead of game journalists. Clearly when people talk about gamergate and journalism they could also mean other forms of journalism.
@@RA-ie3ss Well documented story, bro. A small number of-let’s call them what they are-criminals fooled a bunch of normal gamers like you into running cover for their criminal acts of harassment. It doesn’t matter how bad games journalists are (but let’s face it, the worst they could have possibly done is not disclose that they were paid off to say a game was good or bad, something that’s happened since at least Nintendo Power, which was owned by an actual game company-or, as Jim Sterling would point out, they could write lovingly about micro transactions and loot boxes, but too many gamergaters seem to support that kind of pro-game propaganda to notice when they’re actually being played), it doesn’t disprove that the originators of Gamergate were actual criminals who dragged-in non-journalists like Sarkeesian (regardless of whether you agree with her or not, critical theory is not journalism) for no other reason than she was critical of video game tropes, which would be like the AMA going after Susan Sontag for writing “Illness As Metaphor.” For better or worse, Sarkeesian’s series was one of the first academic works that tried to discuss games as an actual art form through academic inquiry. Was her series as in depth and though provoking as the critical writings of, say, John Barth or Susan Sontag? No, probably not, but I also don’t remember Barth being sent death threats for (supposedly) saying the the novel was dead in “Literature of Exhaustion” (instead, among other things, Barth discussed the merits of virtuosity (defined in the article as “expertise and artistry” coupled with “bright aesthetic ideas and/or inspiration”) vs simply having a novel idea (the examples are the works of Borges vs the works of the Fluxus intermedia collective, which, among other things, printed novels on toilet paper-the latter being less interesting to Barth because it required no skill to produce).
@@kevintrjohnson All of you are NPCs that can't think for yourselves. Like I said. Likely story. Let's have more censorship for professional victims of harassment.
i'm not gunna listen to this but there is no difference between woke and left.... they are 1 thing. 0 way to separate cancel culture and mainstream media from leftism. 0
So in your opinion Kamala Harris and Gorbachev hold the same political beliefs?
You missed nothing at all by not listening.
Same old rehash: we haven't seen real socialism. Class war is a necessity to defend the poor. Critical theory, something maxist quote, woke is not the outcome of the left ideas...
Clown show through and through.
Remember the dixie chicks? The right-wing invented cancel culture.
I own it. Stay Woke!
There is nothing wrong with being "right wing" or individualist or an American Constitutionalist or classically liberal. Its only bad to not be left if your a leftist. Just like its only bad to be non-muslim if you are a muslim. You are gonna agree with a lot of right wing commentary because the right wing is right alot lol
Doesn't that apply to every group? It's only bad to be anything, if you are something else. If you're a Capitalist, don't you think it's bad to be a Socialist because they want to abolish Capitalism?
@@JebeckyGranjola I am just saying its ok to be right wing lol
A broken clock is right twice a day. Even a blind pig finds slop sometimes.
People say this stuff but then they don't have anything clever when it's obvious whatever they are referring to is right more than twice a day.
@Poker Mitten I don't get this comment either. 'A broken clock' idiom doesn't refer to someone being correct infrequently, it means someone that was incidentally correct, counter to where thier reasoning should lead to.
@@JebeckyGranjola When in Rome!
I'm sorry, Jared--I like you and your analysis, but when you say things like "I have a hard time disagreeing" with right-wing outrage grifters screaming about brown people in Star Wars, it undermines my ability to take your views seriously.
And then your guest moves onto a very "get off my lawn" sort of analysis. The older we get, the easier it is to dislike the stuff that the younger generations make. And "the wokeness is a symptom of its exhaustion"? I mean, c'mon.
This interview certainly made me less socialist.
Balaji srinivasan has the best takes on the woke
Yeah I’ve heard good conversations about issues with “wokeness” running up against socialism, but this was not one of them.
Yay