Fellow therapist here! Oxie, I love the way you addressed all the clinical questions, and the mention of Hannanie overcoming her struggles with the community support was beautiful. Keep doing the good work, that LPC/LCSW is well earned and definitely over due :)
3:14:00 guys, you gotta watch the "unguided" series by Alien Food. He is literally getting a quest cape without guides or quest helper. Honestly you should have him on the show. That would be awesome
OK, was listening at work, had to respond to the quest talk to try to give insight into someone who enjoys the big puzzles. I do all new quests blind. I had started osrs in 2019 after leaving rs2 in 2012, so every quest I've done has been a blind run, and 99% of the time the puzzles are some of my favorite parts. Sote is my favorite quest specifically because of the light puzzle. It took me 3 2-hour sessions to beat it the first time, then on my next account i did it without a guide again and finished the puzzle in about 3. Lassar Undercity was the best part of dt2 for me. All of those puzzles and environments had good backing music, looked interesting to traverse, while engaging my brain trying to figure out things at the same time. If it's a big puzzle in a big area, i expect it to take a long time, and if a quest takes hours to complete because of expansive puzzles, I'll generally consider it some great hours of gameplay and look forward to doing it again on my second account. Side note: I really don't get what is so painful about doing giant's foundry. I get the annoyance at how much better exp it is, but it being something that requires a bit more focus just doesn't seem that bad. I didn't realize there was such a strong dislike for the gameplay itself.
The problem with Giants Foundry is that it requires a level of *attention* that does not match the level of *interaction.* Wintertodt, Tempoross, or even things as extreme as CG require a vast amount of more attention, but you are actively engaging with the content as well. Having your attention fixed, yet the only interaction is clicking once every 30-60 seconds is just... not that fun to a lot of people.
2:00:00 I'm personally heavily against tick manipulation, but I'm not against making skilling more rhythmic.. I just think it should be more reactive and the problem with tick manipulation is that it's just repeated patterns currently with too much intensity. And that's literally one of the worst things you can do to human body, especially with extended exposure it's literally causing physical problems. BUT.. I do agree that they could definitely improve the skills, make them more rhytmic, make them more reactive.. Like let's use woodcutting as an example, what if you could cut the trees from multiple sides? You could still afk it like you always have, but if you want for example extra logs for firemaking or fletching.. You could get random prompts to highlight that now is a good time to switch to other side and get extra 5 logs before the tree falls, but just make it give the logs and not extra exp so people who just want to afk it don't feel like they have to do something unless they need bit of extra motivation for more active gameplay. The agility example was great too, you could have variations on agility course where you can pick a more difficult route during the lap, but you could fail it if you miss time your jump and fall back to the ORIGINAL route so that you can still complete a lap and don't feel like shit just for trying something more difficult. But you could also just keep brainlessly clicking the green on the basic route and still get decent default exp rates. So you encourage improving your gameplay, with a slight penalty to exp per hour if you fail but give decent boost to exp per hour if you do things well.
I just wanna talk about doing quests blind. I successfully did DTII without a guide except the bosses. I'd say new quests are much more solvable blind than old quests, I can not say the same thing about new bosses. If anything it's the opposite. I tried doing Legend's Quest for the first time blind. I didn't realize that it was like the worst possible quest to do that on, it just sounded like a good quest. I got stuck on that puzzle where you need to bring an unpowered orb and caved and looked it up. I am currently midway through doing While Guthix Sleeps guideless, and am currently stuck in those tunnels with the skill symbols at the end. I spent a few hours trying things, but my membership ran out. I'll get back to it after leagues. This is the forgotten type of the RS player: The Quester If it takes hours to learn a boss, there's no reason you can't spend the same time on a quest. But again, quests are easier to blind than bosses. I tried ToA day 1 with randos and we were just d*cking around for 45 minutes in the Scarabas puzzle trying to figure that the symbols meant numbers. But that felt like an AHA moment when we figured it out. On the other hand, it's completely not obvious what to pray and what you need to kill in the actual bug fight. I distinctly remember seeing the sword projectile from Warden and thinking "that better not count as a melee attack" as I prayed range out of protest. Honestly, one of the reasons I don't like high level PvM is how much of it is just looking up mechanics on the wiki. Like, I wanna fight, not study for a test. It doesn't feel motivating either, because if I get it down, I feel less like a skilled fighter and more like a nerd who can recite all the capital cities in Europe. In my world, any new boss should be able to be pretty quickly sussed out by anyone familiar enough with the games mechanics. It can force them to learn new stuff, sure, but make it clear, even if you need an in-game NPC to tell you. There may be hope for me. My ranting about it may have single handedly gotten the vardorvis blue p*nis thing changed to green
Omg, SaeBae talking about Agility like it's your favourite skill. It sucks. I think the guests are right, I'd rather take better rates. Clicking 700 laps on one course is cancer. And doing the quest for "fun" Agility takes ages, bro
3:05:00 god that sentence triggers me when I hear it in any video game.. People thinking that bugs are intentional part of the game and that you need to learn them rather than devs fixing an obvious bug.. If something hits you in a game that doesn't visually seem to hit you, it's never intended design.. It's just devs being lazy and people being eventually fine with it when they struggle long enough with badly made mechanics. I'm not going to go too deeply into it, but osrs generally suffers a lot from tick based system and it makes people think that you can't fix it and that you're supposed to just predict hits and count ticks rather than react to what's happening on screen.. And suddenly Jagex comes out with boss mechanics that you can just visually prayer switch against and it works perfectly that makes me even more confused.. Why do I still have to predict Jad hit timing when I can just perfectly well time my prayer switches to leviathan balls hitting my character? It's like the game is a confusing mess of two completely opposing systems, out of which one is just generally seen as bad game design and horrible for anyone to learn on their own.. 3:08:30 Nothing is stopping you from learning the new rhythm just because it would be fixed to visually match the attacks.. In fact the rhythm would be exactly the same, you would just simply see your character actually blocking the attacks correctly and you would see exactly what you are doing wrong if you make mistake. I hate the argument that "nah, people have already learned to do it this way" since it would literally take less than 10 minutes to just slightly time yourself differently and keep the rhythm same as it always has been. 3:08:55 so you're literally saying here that "It's bad game design and can't be learned on the spot" and still you want it to stay in the game and keep it intentionally feeling wrong? I seriously don't understand people sometimes in this game It's extremely annoying in this game to feel like you did something right and still be punished because the game mechanic happened before you even saw it happening, and it's one of the biggest things holding this game back in the eyes of modern audience
@Bogby_Pogby it has nothing to with being bad or good at the game.. You can learn to do things incorrectly if the game is designed incorrectly.. I can do melee fire cape just fine and do multi jad challenges even if the timing of the prayers is incorrect.. The fact that you can learn to do the weird timings doesn't mean that the timing isn't weird and wrong. Leviathan is a proof that they can actually program the prayer to be based on projectile hitting player and not when the attack animation started, it just sucks to have part of the game work visually correct and other part of the game work completely different. It makes learning certain content pointlessly annoying since you can never know what the actual timing is until you die to it
It’s too easy with the leviathan/zebak style. Some content like inferno and colo would be ruined with a change to the new style. People genuinely enjoy learning the timings even if you don’t.
1:09:15 I'm so glad that they have finally at least worked on the task list and drastically improved it.. It still feels bloated for a temporary game mode, and certain tasks are just awful like getting "50 summer sq'irk juices" or defeating each boss 300 times.. At least it's no longer kill 1500 Krakens for a task, but no matter how you look at it.. Doing hundreds of kills just for 200 league points will never feel fun or engaging, it becomes a chore past the first 100 kills even if you can do it incredibly fast. I think league tasks would be better if they were just more like a guidance of things you can do to progress your account, rather than "do this grind way past max level" and sure.. They have heavily toned it down in this league which has been fantastic change and they have removed a ton of pointless tasks. But my problem is that many of those tasks were so crazy to begin with when asking to kill literally thousands of same boss, that they don't realize that even killing anything 300 times is NOT fun anymore. And then you have to do it for 10 different bosses and suddenly you are ticking boxes by killing 3000 bosses again. Yeah you get more points and see slightly more variation on what you do, but killing 3000 bosses is just not fun content and unfortunately it's required for the dragon cup which also got it's points requirement increased from last leagues. I think the biggest burn out for people during the leagues will always be the task list, since it's just simply not that fun way to progress. I think that unlocking content by doing other content would be way more engaging, like for example locking skills behind defeating a boss or vice versa. But based on what we have heard, this area locked task list focused leagues has been popular enough that Jagex might be sticking to it for few years straight which sucks. Because I personally thought Leagues would be a great playground for coming up new crazy ideas for different styles of progression
44:00 god that discussion makes me so angry about how the school system and life in general keeps ruining infinite number of gifted individuals.. Just because their interest doesn't align with the system that they are "supposed to learn" instead of helping them to build up on their interests and strong points. Yes, some amount of basic knowledge is fantastic to have, but not every single person will become a mathematician or linguistics major even if there's crazy amount of focus for trying to get every kid perform well in those kind of subjects. The system just keeps trying to mold everyone into a melting pot of subjects to learn that 90% of people will never use in their lives past the test in school. And it never listens if someone actually has an interest that they would want to get better at..
With the barb fishing you are just wrong its efficient for ironmen to do decant barblore and bank all sturgeon so what you are saying about dropping is just plain wrong if you are being efficient on an ironman account
Skilling is gate kept from good ideas by spergs who think because they suffered, you must. So long as 3t4g is the highest exp rate arbitrarily, mining training will always be aids. Skilling isn't fun, inherently and keeping rates artificially low will keep it from broad scale appeal.
Thank you for having us on the show! It was a blast! 🎉
lets go!
Fellow therapist here! Oxie, I love the way you addressed all the clinical questions, and the mention of Hannanie overcoming her struggles with the community support was beautiful. Keep doing the good work, that LPC/LCSW is well earned and definitely over due :)
3:14:00 guys, you gotta watch the "unguided" series by Alien Food. He is literally getting a quest cape without guides or quest helper. Honestly you should have him on the show. That would be awesome
OK, was listening at work, had to respond to the quest talk to try to give insight into someone who enjoys the big puzzles.
I do all new quests blind. I had started osrs in 2019 after leaving rs2 in 2012, so every quest I've done has been a blind run, and 99% of the time the puzzles are some of my favorite parts. Sote is my favorite quest specifically because of the light puzzle. It took me 3 2-hour sessions to beat it the first time, then on my next account i did it without a guide again and finished the puzzle in about 3. Lassar Undercity was the best part of dt2 for me. All of those puzzles and environments had good backing music, looked interesting to traverse, while engaging my brain trying to figure out things at the same time. If it's a big puzzle in a big area, i expect it to take a long time, and if a quest takes hours to complete because of expansive puzzles, I'll generally consider it some great hours of gameplay and look forward to doing it again on my second account.
Side note: I really don't get what is so painful about doing giant's foundry. I get the annoyance at how much better exp it is, but it being something that requires a bit more focus just doesn't seem that bad. I didn't realize there was such a strong dislike for the gameplay itself.
Lassar Undercity is really just peak Jagex environment storytelling.
Agreed!
The problem with Giants Foundry is that it requires a level of *attention* that does not match the level of *interaction.* Wintertodt, Tempoross, or even things as extreme as CG require a vast amount of more attention, but you are actively engaging with the content as well.
Having your attention fixed, yet the only interaction is clicking once every 30-60 seconds is just... not that fun to a lot of people.
@@Ryan_Carder You know what, that is an excellent point I never considered.
2:00:00 I'm personally heavily against tick manipulation, but I'm not against making skilling more rhythmic.. I just think it should be more reactive and the problem with tick manipulation is that it's just repeated patterns currently with too much intensity. And that's literally one of the worst things you can do to human body, especially with extended exposure it's literally causing physical problems. BUT..
I do agree that they could definitely improve the skills, make them more rhytmic, make them more reactive.. Like let's use woodcutting as an example, what if you could cut the trees from multiple sides? You could still afk it like you always have, but if you want for example extra logs for firemaking or fletching.. You could get random prompts to highlight that now is a good time to switch to other side and get extra 5 logs before the tree falls, but just make it give the logs and not extra exp so people who just want to afk it don't feel like they have to do something unless they need bit of extra motivation for more active gameplay.
The agility example was great too, you could have variations on agility course where you can pick a more difficult route during the lap, but you could fail it if you miss time your jump and fall back to the ORIGINAL route so that you can still complete a lap and don't feel like shit just for trying something more difficult. But you could also just keep brainlessly clicking the green on the basic route and still get decent default exp rates. So you encourage improving your gameplay, with a slight penalty to exp per hour if you fail but give decent boost to exp per hour if you do things well.
I just wanna talk about doing quests blind. I successfully did DTII without a guide except the bosses. I'd say new quests are much more solvable blind than old quests, I can not say the same thing about new bosses. If anything it's the opposite.
I tried doing Legend's Quest for the first time blind. I didn't realize that it was like the worst possible quest to do that on, it just sounded like a good quest.
I got stuck on that puzzle where you need to bring an unpowered orb and caved and looked it up.
I am currently midway through doing While Guthix Sleeps guideless, and am currently stuck in those tunnels with the skill symbols at the end. I spent a few hours trying things, but my membership ran out. I'll get back to it after leagues.
This is the forgotten type of the RS player: The Quester
If it takes hours to learn a boss, there's no reason you can't spend the same time on a quest. But again, quests are easier to blind than bosses.
I tried ToA day 1 with randos and we were just d*cking around for 45 minutes in the Scarabas puzzle trying to figure that the symbols meant numbers. But that felt like an AHA moment when we figured it out. On the other hand, it's completely not obvious what to pray and what you need to kill in the actual bug fight.
I distinctly remember seeing the sword projectile from Warden and thinking "that better not count as a melee attack" as I prayed range out of protest.
Honestly, one of the reasons I don't like high level PvM is how much of it is just looking up mechanics on the wiki. Like, I wanna fight, not study for a test. It doesn't feel motivating either, because if I get it down, I feel less like a skilled fighter and more like a nerd who can recite all the capital cities in Europe.
In my world, any new boss should be able to be pretty quickly sussed out by anyone familiar enough with the games mechanics. It can force them to learn new stuff, sure, but make it clear, even if you need an in-game NPC to tell you.
There may be hope for me. My ranting about it may have single handedly gotten the vardorvis blue p*nis thing changed to green
Omg, SaeBae talking about Agility like it's your favourite skill. It sucks. I think the guests are right, I'd rather take better rates. Clicking 700 laps on one course is cancer. And doing the quest for "fun" Agility takes ages, bro
38:30 damn just trying to listen to saebae cast while driving for work and now im sitting here crying. Thanks, Obama.
Listen, I don’t care how expensive coal is, I ain’t fuckin mining it
3:05:00 god that sentence triggers me when I hear it in any video game.. People thinking that bugs are intentional part of the game and that you need to learn them rather than devs fixing an obvious bug.. If something hits you in a game that doesn't visually seem to hit you, it's never intended design.. It's just devs being lazy and people being eventually fine with it when they struggle long enough with badly made mechanics.
I'm not going to go too deeply into it, but osrs generally suffers a lot from tick based system and it makes people think that you can't fix it and that you're supposed to just predict hits and count ticks rather than react to what's happening on screen.. And suddenly Jagex comes out with boss mechanics that you can just visually prayer switch against and it works perfectly that makes me even more confused.. Why do I still have to predict Jad hit timing when I can just perfectly well time my prayer switches to leviathan balls hitting my character? It's like the game is a confusing mess of two completely opposing systems, out of which one is just generally seen as bad game design and horrible for anyone to learn on their own..
3:08:30 Nothing is stopping you from learning the new rhythm just because it would be fixed to visually match the attacks.. In fact the rhythm would be exactly the same, you would just simply see your character actually blocking the attacks correctly and you would see exactly what you are doing wrong if you make mistake. I hate the argument that "nah, people have already learned to do it this way" since it would literally take less than 10 minutes to just slightly time yourself differently and keep the rhythm same as it always has been.
3:08:55 so you're literally saying here that "It's bad game design and can't be learned on the spot" and still you want it to stay in the game and keep it intentionally feeling wrong? I seriously don't understand people sometimes in this game
It's extremely annoying in this game to feel like you did something right and still be punished because the game mechanic happened before you even saw it happening, and it's one of the biggest things holding this game back in the eyes of modern audience
Get gud kiddo
@Bogby_Pogby it has nothing to with being bad or good at the game.. You can learn to do things incorrectly if the game is designed incorrectly.. I can do melee fire cape just fine and do multi jad challenges even if the timing of the prayers is incorrect..
The fact that you can learn to do the weird timings doesn't mean that the timing isn't weird and wrong. Leviathan is a proof that they can actually program the prayer to be based on projectile hitting player and not when the attack animation started, it just sucks to have part of the game work visually correct and other part of the game work completely different. It makes learning certain content pointlessly annoying since you can never know what the actual timing is until you die to it
It’s too easy with the leviathan/zebak style. Some content like inferno and colo would be ruined with a change to the new style. People genuinely enjoy learning the timings even if you don’t.
1:09:15 I'm so glad that they have finally at least worked on the task list and drastically improved it.. It still feels bloated for a temporary game mode, and certain tasks are just awful like getting "50 summer sq'irk juices" or defeating each boss 300 times.. At least it's no longer kill 1500 Krakens for a task, but no matter how you look at it.. Doing hundreds of kills just for 200 league points will never feel fun or engaging, it becomes a chore past the first 100 kills even if you can do it incredibly fast.
I think league tasks would be better if they were just more like a guidance of things you can do to progress your account, rather than "do this grind way past max level" and sure.. They have heavily toned it down in this league which has been fantastic change and they have removed a ton of pointless tasks. But my problem is that many of those tasks were so crazy to begin with when asking to kill literally thousands of same boss, that they don't realize that even killing anything 300 times is NOT fun anymore. And then you have to do it for 10 different bosses and suddenly you are ticking boxes by killing 3000 bosses again.
Yeah you get more points and see slightly more variation on what you do, but killing 3000 bosses is just not fun content and unfortunately it's required for the dragon cup which also got it's points requirement increased from last leagues.
I think the biggest burn out for people during the leagues will always be the task list, since it's just simply not that fun way to progress. I think that unlocking content by doing other content would be way more engaging, like for example locking skills behind defeating a boss or vice versa. But based on what we have heard, this area locked task list focused leagues has been popular enough that Jagex might be sticking to it for few years straight which sucks. Because I personally thought Leagues would be a great playground for coming up new crazy ideas for different styles of progression
BEEN WAITING FOR THIS COLLAB
What equilibrium SHOULD do is give 10% of any XP gain to your lowest level skill. No matter what training you do, 10% of it goes to your lowest level.
44:00 god that discussion makes me so angry about how the school system and life in general keeps ruining infinite number of gifted individuals.. Just because their interest doesn't align with the system that they are "supposed to learn" instead of helping them to build up on their interests and strong points. Yes, some amount of basic knowledge is fantastic to have, but not every single person will become a mathematician or linguistics major even if there's crazy amount of focus for trying to get every kid perform well in those kind of subjects.
The system just keeps trying to mold everyone into a melting pot of subjects to learn that 90% of people will never use in their lives past the test in school. And it never listens if someone actually has an interest that they would want to get better at..
Holy shit 3.5 hours let’s go 🙌
With the barb fishing you are just wrong its efficient for ironmen to do decant barblore and bank all sturgeon so what you are saying about dropping is just plain wrong if you are being efficient on an ironman account
Watching bro drop 2m herblore xp on the ground 😢
I think they can make something like for hunter skill idk why they haven’t hunter has so much potential fr
Even thieving
I decide on my tasks based on what the most other folks have done lol
I was a walker in Twisted League and I missed dragon cup by 100 points
I'd do it again #walkergang
I was chugging those energy pots and purple sweets
Excellent!
treadmill agility.. blast furnace bike
Xp waste is so great!
Saeder when the fuck are you having Dilz on from The Wilderness podcast?
Calm down
No u
Skilling is gate kept from good ideas by spergs who think because they suffered, you must. So long as 3t4g is the highest exp rate arbitrarily, mining training will always be aids. Skilling isn't fun, inherently and keeping rates artificially low will keep it from broad scale appeal.
Great one man!
Tick manipulation adds no inherent value.
Finally
First
Second