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How amazing is it to hear someone cite their sources. Unheard of in this day and age. Well done my friend. Love the content. You have a new subscriber.
They say they lost a tent and their cooker from the assault camp, so there was no way to get water for the climb. So we are to believe they did something like 30 hours of climbing above 8000 meters before they could get back to their camp 6 completely without water, and much of it without oxygen, with very little experience, in the dark on an unfamiliar route? By far the most likely thing that happened was they climbed the second step with pitons, they turned around at about the height of their highest photograph, so basically at the third step, because that's where they would have run out of oxygen. The question could be easily resolved by just letting a western geologist examine the summit rocks. The fact that the Chinese haven't taken that simple step tells me they dont want anyone examining those rocks.
They explained that in their hardest moments, they read Chairman Mao's bible, and his words gave them so much power and insiration, that they were able to archive the impossible.
@@AndyGraumann1Same here Comrade. Whenever I need that extra push of encouragement I’ll do the same. Its that inspirational Marxist literature that brings out the extra performance in me.
@@narichey1981 Apparently they reached the advanced camp at 9p.m. the second day and slept there! So two nights above 8500 meters, no oxygen and no water! In comparison, Unsoeld and Hornbein are amateurs ;-)
Off topic, but your channel along with studying the endeavors of Mallory and Irvine have inspired me to into get mountaineering. I reached the summit of Mount Tecumseh this morning, my first 4000 footer. Keep up the good work Thom.
Thank you! Comments like yours make every single minute of this endeavor worth it! Congratulations on your summit of Tecumseh! I love that mountain. Keep going, my friend.... The snows are soon to arrive. If you want to know of a great, quite easy, hike, check out Mt. Crawford, which goes up the Davis Path on Rt 302 in Hart's Location. 2.5 miles up and 2.5 miles back (it's not a 4000 footer). I am going to do a short members video (also free to my patrons at patreon.com/everestmystery) showing clips from that hike yesterday. Thanks for being here!
Thank you Thom. As I've said before, I am no mountain climber, but I was a skeleton athlete, and love the ideal of pushing myself beyond my imagined limits. I suspect the two disciplines have a spirit in common. Peace, love and happiness from Australia.
Thanks so much for the kindness, I truly appreciate it. Yes, the suffering aspect is very appealing to many who go deep into certain sports, which you are familiar with! Thank you for watching : )
The idea that these 3 inexperienced climbers can summit Mount Everest for the first time of humanity without lights and oxygen is absolutely ludicrous. If there’s not photographic/video evidence, their summit didn’t happen. It’s possible the story about no oxygen is completely false if a summit did happen. But to me the story has too many elements of impossibility to be true.
@@pauldavis4287 I am with you. They are all supposed to have rocks. You can tell the difference in the rocks from the summit from all the other rocks on the mountain. They are supposed to grab rocks from the highest point of their ascent if they are forced to turn around.
I'm sorry but those two climbers in 1924 were actual mountaineers... With oxygen... Taking a much less technical equipment heavy (or human ladders and the teachings of Mao, along with a bronze bust they of the great leader they 100% left on Everest 🤣). Among MANY other easily found details, the actual facts of what was driving the expeditions and who and what the climbers and support teams were doing is probably the most important factor... One was to share knowledge and science of the mountain with the world and the internal drive to try reaching the top for personal reasons... The other supposedly for similar reasons, but more time was spent filming spectacular propaganda with CCP selected individuals to represent certain aspects of communist culture 🤔 Also the Chinese summit team bragging so much about scientific study during the expedition, yet NEVER allowing the summit rocks from the 1960 expedition ever to be studied outside of a small "group of experts" within China... Mallory and Irvine also planned to collect summit rocks, along with all the previously collected scientific information and various rock samples with geologists from around the world... Nobody should've ever wasted time searching Mallory for some camera that isn't even a VPK and may not even exist instead of a carefully conducted search for summit rock fragments... That chance is now gone, and unless the rest of Irvine is found with intact pockets/gear we will never know... All the 1960 team had to do was less meditation over the teachings of Mao they all had to carry and send some summit rocks to any western laboratory capable of making the determination... One team was focused on real goals with self determination and in depth training/previous experience on the mountain with and without oxygen on routes that had recently been checked by previous teams... The other team was there strictly make a state propaganda film, yet in 1960 didn't decide taking lights or cameras to the top was a critical part of that propaganda stunt... Yet they remembered to bring down summit rocks! Only to not allow 3rd party testing where they would be on site to challenge any particular geologists comparisons themselves... 🤔 Are you starting to see why a team of 200 "expedition members" so superior to westerners that they don't require oxygen, while taking hundreds or thousands of pictures and hours of video all while referening Mao every other sentence may be a bit less trustworthy than a dedicated group of hardened WW1 veterans on a mission to study and climb the unknown for the world and their personal goals, not their oppressive government's that made that expedition SOLELY for propaganda inside and outside the CCP? Why did the 1965 team require oxygen, use local Sherpas, and provide enough evidence to actually be globally accepted as successfully making the summit? 🤦♂️ Why would the government support another expedition only 5 years after after this disastrous failure of a complete propaganda project? Why did they decide to send a group with some actual experience and evil western technology to achieve success "again"? A silly comparison in a silly remark to even mention this "project" and the 1924 expedition... One group may have actually reached the summit, do some research beyond this video and you may figure out which group even had a plausible chance of making the summit...
The story of this "ascent" would be more believable if they had said a Yeti helped them over the difficult bits, of course no one who wants to get a permit to enter Tibet is going to say anything to upset the Chinese who occupy the country. China could have dispelled any scepticism by allowing the summit rocks to be examined by an independent geologist, I doubt if Mao would have missed a few grams.
I believe they found Irvine's body and possibly the camera as well, and quietly disposed of both. It would be just like the communists to whitewash history and ensure the narrative that they were the first to reach the summit from the north side.
I enjoyed your live stream. I noted there were questions that your subs asked including mine, but never addressed. Your subs help your awesome channel grow. IMO
Hi, please let me know what question I missed. I try to get to as many of the questions as possible. I plan on doing another livestream next week and will put you to the top of the line : )
I've been watching your videos and learning a lot about Everest. While I'm not a climber or mountaineer myself, I'm truly fascinated by the history of Everest as the world's highest peak-much like how I enjoy learning about Titanic. I’d love to hear your take on the story of Nobukazu Kuriki.
Same! Found his channel today and I have literally never heard of any of these people but I've already watched like five of his videos and I'm just going to keep on watching because I find it all really interesting.
So, still we have people claiming the British team in 24 was climbing the modern ridge route, when Mallory said many times that he did NOT plan on climbing the ridge. Also, Norton and Summerville almost broke through the coloure right before Mallory, and Irvine's climb. There is Mallorys own writings about NOT climbing the ridge. Malloryand Irvine never attempted to climb the 2nd step, so of course there wouldnt be anything there from prior expeditions.
Friend and Everest historian Jochen Hemmleb has said on many occasions, please show him the writings of Mallory where he stated he would not climb the ridge. (He's still waiting.) There's no proof either way of which route they took. Jochen wrote this to me some time ago: "There is nothing in Mallory’s writing that suggests that he intended to take the ridge. He wrote in 1921 that he was aware of the difficulties of the crest and that obstacles might be circumvented via ledges on the north face. Equally, there is nothing in his writing that says explicitly that he didn’t want to follow the ridge." If someone is saying anything contrary to what Jochen explained, that person has done a disservice to the truth.
@@EverestMystery There has become far too much emotion, nationalism & politics over the North Face of Everest. There's a good chance that Mallory & Irvine made it to the summit, if they went across the face like Norton & Somervell and found a "zig zag" route up to the summit pyramid before the couloir. The timings don't work in relation to Odell if they crossed the Couloir. That's a big 'if', given Messner's views on that likely ascent terrain. They clearly didn't, if they went along the ridge line to 'the 2nd step'. As I am of the school that it doesn't really count unless you safely get back down, I have no particular axe to grind. I think much of the problem with all of this is that a modern ridge line ascent mentality became entrenched before people really applied their minds and went into Mallory's & Irvine's communications in detail (written & verbal, within the expeditions and in letters to the UK). Not helped by Odell's 12.50pm sighting comment, or rather his later attempts at clarifying what he saw. People are now too afraid to backtrack from previous assertions, when they shouldn't be. Whatever Mallory's plans were, they didn't include taking Irvine to the near 150ft rock face of 'the 2nd step' at 28,000 plus feet and it's difficult to think of anything that even a snow blind Norton could have said that would have induced him to suddenly do that. Across the face was the only route to the summit, with the equipment of the era. A rather obvious explanation for the demise of Mallory & Irvine is that they were on the mountain way too late. What's the first reason that jumps to mind as to why that might well have been (complete with pocketed snow goggles & no photo of Ruth Mallory)...? We now know exactly what a menace summit fever is on that mountain, without gabardine clothing and hob nail boots on a late and freezing descent. As for 1960, I don't trust totalitarian communist dictatorships (let alone one of the monsters of history in Mao), I don't blame anyone for doing and saying what they needed to do to stay alive (including high altitude climbers) and I would welcome China opening up the 'summit rocks' to international testing. I somehow doubt they ever will.
@@gjpowell thanks. so much! Good analysis. Quick thoughts to contemplate: there is no zig-zag, and that which is referred to as that route has been scoped from above by Jake Norton, who shivered at its impossibility. Further, there isn't a good chance M&I made the summit. The good chance is that they did not. If they sauntered up, why then didn't the 1933 and 1938 expeditions succeed? Also, Mallory never once wrote that he wouldn't take the ridge route....no one has ever shown the writing that proves it. Even if he did, he also said that Khumbu Icefall was impossible. He was obviously wrong. No one can ever say with assurance that Mallory never intended to take Irvine up the ridge. Norton had just gotten his ass kicked on the couloir, and he wasn't that close. He got beaten, and reported quite woeful conditions. Totally agree that M&I were too late on the mountain. If they were at the base of the pyramid at 12:50 (and most signs point to them not being there, but lower on the ridge, as Frank Smythe said in his book Camp Six) they never would have been able to summit then get back so far east to where Mallory was found, or the ice axe for that matter. Regarding China, I don't think Mao or the Cultural Revolution or anything takes away from these guys going after it. Sure it was replete with propaganda. However, that could be said for the colonialist Brits, as well, who were emerging from WWI, talking about how to conquer Everest. Cheers, my friend and thanks for the great conversation!
Thanks for the video. I don't know whether the Chinese team reached the summit in 1960. That they described things on the summit doesn't entirely prove anything. The Chinese could have taken extensive photographic surveillance of the mountain top in order to prepare the team. Maybe everyone on the team knew what to expect. That many of the lost fingers and toes doesn't entirely prove anything. They might have lost fingers and toes making the attempt and never getting there. Accounts of their ascent given after others had made the ascent have less evidentiary value because they could have used the accounts that others gave to supplement their own stories. None of this means that they didn't get there, but the evidence that you give here is not conclusive. From the photographic evidence, they certainly reached the area above the second step and probably the third step. They have the pictures to show that part of their accomplishment. The other side of the coin is that Mao killed about seventy million of his own citizens for the glory of Chinese communism. Most people who go to Everest don't have to worry about being arrested or having their family members arrested if they fail. If these four men ended up above the third step and not able to get any higher, I can't blame them for concocting a story as they sat in a bivouac somewhere. If they repeated the story to themselves enough while in those oxygen-deprived conditions, they might have come to believe the story themselves. By making the story believable, they saved themselves and their families from the consequences of disappointing Mao. I have no doubt that they did nothing but train during the two years before the attempt. To me, that's always been a fascinating thought. If one took a few hundred people who are basically random people except that they would volunteer to make the attempt, could one build a successful team in a year or two? The idea would be to build a home for them at ten or twelve thousand feet above sea level to start changing their bodies to acclimate to higher altitudes. The organizers would then bring in instructors in mountaineering or send the students elsewhere for the best instruction in mountaineering. The team members would have very controlled diets and exercise regimes. They would be climbing somewhere almost continuously. Team members who were found to have weaker bodies or some other disability would be removed from the team. Team members who showed a propensity for high altitude sickness of any kind would be removed from the team. Today, the task would be a little easier because so many people have climbed the mountain and told us about the challenges. In the late 1950's, a country that was determined to make this effort and had access to the mountain could learn a great deal by flying military surveillance planes above the mountain and take pictures of everything. I really don't know whether a team that had spent two years doing nothing except training for the climb would be unprepared or extraordinarily well prepared.
It all depends on the person. I lost ninety pounds. And a year later, I climbed mount Adam's and mount Rainier.In a twenty four hour period. But no. I don't believe their story
Totally. I'd be willing to bet they were under duress. "We made it, Chairman Mao. Please give us back our families." Communist Russia tried to prove communism worked by excessively exporting grain, which starved the citizens.
Excellent, objective report of this story. I haven’t heard about it before so I’m not sure what I think… but I really wonder what would happen if the Chinese refused to believe the Europeans and sent ‘Chinese experts’ to make sure it was true. The fact that this is literally unimaginable speaks volumes.
@@lornarettig3215 I'm not sure what age you are but I'm old enough to remember the cold war, my uncle served in the Korean war whilst I served in West Germany in the seventies and eighties. This claim of an ascent of Everest wasn't about climbing, it was a statement that the Chinese communist system was superior to the west. Bear in mind the Chinese had their arses kicked in the Korean war by a US led coalition, backed by the UK and others less than a decade previously. Add to that a claim of a first ascent that beggars belief, the only proof of which is a photo taken from somewhere other than the summit.
Excellent job on this video, Thom. You gave a very balanced presentation with great visuals. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that they did summit but it's not difficult to see why some are doubtful. Thanks so much for putting this together. Peace be with you.
Their description of the Summit doesn’t even match the Summit, it sounds more like the false summit. They have never released the Summit Rocks for analysis. They were inexperienced climbers warming themselves “through the thoughts of Chairman Mao” They didn’t make it. It’s far more likely that Mallory and Irvine did. It’s weird that there is always this obsession with finding a camera with Mallory and Irvine when Mallory stated he would collect summit rocks, and yet we uncritically accept that the Chinese couldn’t take a photo whilst never demanding to see their Summit Rocks.
Selective skepticism at its finest, I suppose. There's no way 18 people assisting an assault on the ridge could have made it in 1960. But, two men in woefully inadequate clothing and gear did make it, decades before, one of them completely inexperienced in climbing. The last sentence: dude, don't believe the faceless, monotoned hate-monger who wants to paint a picture of something in order to grow his channel.
@@EverestMystery I can see that the last sentence has come across quite below the belt. It was a bit thoughtless and thrown in not to attack you but to say that we might not get to know definitively with Mallory and Irvine. I will edit it out now. You can’t unread it, but no one else has to. I appreciate you responding, to be honest I thought it would get lost amongst a sea of comments. I am going to stick by the rest of what I said though, I don’t see it as selective scepticism. I am no more certain of either the 1924 or the 1960 expedition making the summit.
@@EverestMysteryAgreed, it seems much more plausible the Chinese made it than Mallory & Irvine, not because M&I were lesser than but simply because 36 years seperated them. Their oxygen apparatus was far more unreliable, they started off far below the Chinese in Camp VI, they had just 2 vs 4 men to handle the 2nd Step, no photography from M&I from 1924, and perhaps, most pressingly, they both died, while the Chinese lived (inc even the chap who bravely took off his boots & managed to successfully traverse the 2nd Step, and still affixed a bolt over the course of an hour, so he must have been relatively lucid). The (likely) success of the Chinese takes nothing away from M&I tenacity, courage & sacrifice - and being a sour puss & just adding to the contempt & vitriol online as some 'other' TH-cam channels seem all too comfortable doing (*cough* Mr Tracy *cough*) just does a disservice to their memory.
Really enjoying your channel and the way you present these stories. I'm familiar with China and Chinese culture and I don't doubt the determination of this team or that they probably made it, though I understand why some might. Thanks for bringing these stories to life!
@@pauldavis4287I believe Mallory or Irvine made it to the summit, but only because I want to believe. There is zero evidence, or even a claim they made it. The 1960 claim has direct evidence in from three eye witnesses. Not everyone believes the eye witnesses, but from an evidence standpoint, they win.
@colin1493 yeah, that's not worth the paper it's written on. The entire group could easily lie. We need a minimum of circumstantial evidence for any of the claims.
@harrisongray9172 thom has been keeping me sane. Been in bed sick for a year and Thom's knowledge expertise and passion has kept my spirits up... much better than Netflix. Cheers bud
I did meet one of the summit climbers, Mr Chu I think, in 1981 when I was in Beijing on my way to the Himalayas as part of a New Zealand expedition. We talked to him through our interpreter and we were all satisfied that they had got to the summit. I don’t think they were the first, as there is an excellent chance that Mallory and Irvine also got there on their expedition.
I've never been above 14 thousand feet so I can hardly speak about Everest, but I know one thing I used to love to do and that was ski at night under a full moon without lights. Does anyone know what the moon phase might have been?
Inexperienced climbers, without water for 19 hours, not familiar with the route, at night, in bad conditions, very little photographic evidence. If you think they (the Chinese) summited, I feel bad for your soft forehead.
@bboss8048 wow there's a lot to unpack in your comment, inexperienced climbers you say? Not familiar with route? (Only some of it) at night? In bad conditions? (That's debatable) photographic evidence? (Search for camera continues) ... I feel nobody is 'softbrained' here, it's some people like/hope to believe they made it, just like bigfoot or God being real.. if you were a betting man you'd probably bet against them having made the summit, that's the smart bet.. but it's nice to let people have hope without insulting them mate.. cheers bud, hope I didn't bore you..
@bboss8048 hey mate I'm so sorry, I was watching Thom's livestream (not live) and then stared watching this new video on my phone.. I thought I was responding to a negative mallory irvine comment.. again I'm so sorry. Proved to myself I can't do 2 things at once. Sorry. cheers (I'll delete my original post if it comes back up, and yes I agree with your comment totally. Chinese wouldn't release summit rocks for testing? Why?)
I have a background in engineering, not mountain climbing, and I say absolutely not! One son can't decide, and the younger believes there is no way they made it. I believe they had great incentive to lie and make up this absurd tale to save their hides! No matter what, as always, we enjoyed the upload and the discussion it encouraged. We learn so much interesting history from you, friend! What a hoot, and fun time learning with my sons!
Always great having you here! Personally, I have no dog in the race and found myself more intrigued and swayed by the nod from Chris Bonington and Jochen Hemmleb. But, your sons will concur, I could be wrong! Thanks for watching and give my regards to the boys!
@laurarichter1780 Now proved as false as Irvine's boot with remains of his foot has been found weeks ago at the bottom of the North Face. If they found Irvine had evidence of submitting they would've taken that and then thrown him off the mountain
George Mallory and Andrew Irvine were the girst to get to the summit of Everest. I totally believe that they made it, and both fell and sucome to the elements on the way Down...
If no definitive proof is available of the Chinese summit then just like Mallory and Irvines summit requiring definative proof on summiting it's unlikely the Chinese summitted,.. but not impossible and will remain another mystery.. Unlike the Chinese attempt Mallory and Irvine still have a chance of definitive proof they made it if Irvine's body or a camera are ever found. Great respect to Mallory and Irvine and the Chinese climber's regardless if summiting or not they are all amazing human beings to be admired and deserve to receive "Legends Status"... It gives me slightly more belief after watching your video that Mallory summited if the Chinese did actually summit given the questionable lack of climbing experience/ability of the Chinese climbers and the poor conditions during their attempt,,, where as Mallory and Irvine had better conditions and Mallory was an exceptionally strong climber 🤔
Thanks for the insights! Graham Hoyland, who has done extensive research on the 1924 expedition, has said that the weather on the day of Mallory and Irvine's summit attempt was along the lines of the weather on May 10, 1996 when the disaster happened. He believes given the weather it would have precluded any chance of them making the summit in that kind of clothing. But, again, we really don't know and can't count them out! Thanks for watching!
9:30 had me in stitches. Bare foot!? Sure you could get some of the trek done… but afterwards it’s gonna be very hard to warm those feet up back to a safe place.
@ you are correct and i think he lost the toes because of bad thermals mixed in with cold temps, among other factors contributed to his frostbite. I feel they lied about the barefoot part to make the Chinese look more masculine and bad ass than just getting regular ole frostbite from the cold.
I have major doubts. The different versions are already at odds with each other. So, they spend the night at the advanced camp, just below the first step at 8500 metres, without a stove, and therefore without water. They set off the next day at 9am to reach the summit the following day at 4.20am. They were back at the advanced camp at around 9pm that day, where they bivouacked again, still without water. So the guys spent 3 nights at over 8500 metres without water, food or oxygen, without freezing to death - that's the real achievement. Frankly, Buhl, Hornbein and Unsoeld are amateurs in comparison. On the other hand, I do think they reached the area around the third step.
@@mktdul2095 So the Chinese got a camera and a film camera and took just one photo and one film, of which we only know one shot from their two days? Two photos of landscapes, no photos of mountaineers above 8200 m, that's really very few. Why take dead weight? And according to the Chinese accounts, they passed the second step at around midday and reached the summit at around 2am (Nepal time).
@marcmonnerat4850 you are talking like that was a summer picnic. If you read any book on deathzone, youd kinda expect that camera wasnt a priority. Everyone agrees that the shots are from around 3rd step after which summit is just a matter of time. One thing that absolutely convinces me is statistics. Chinese listed 7 features of the final approach. It is absolutely statistically impossible to get them all right without actually experiencing that. Note that they are not simple left/right, up/down features, they are major unforseen obsracles and detours, even fake summit. Statistical probability of getting that right without being there is 0.00000005%.
I would like to hear a geologist talk about rock structure along various parts of the ridge. Was or is there signs of rock collapse at the base of the step? Degradation can turn a once easy pitch into a major crux.
Thanks for the analysis. It would seen to me that they made it to the second step and turned around due to lack of oxygen and supplies. I'm astonished that Liu was found alive.
Like several others, I was initially skeptical of the successful summit by the Chinese in 1960. For all the reasons described by mystery, and also pointed out by other mountaineers, and the comments. But... I don't have the same level of doubt now after the evidence shown in the video. Gonna watch again because I don't recall hearing what time the summit team departure from their super -high camp. Traditional departure time for summit bids is around midnight. Mallory and Irvin even left at daybreak. Their times seem odd to me, idk...I can remember mystery said they were breathing their Oz at a rate of 3 liters ph, and that's a pretty strong flow combined with the ultra high camp, I guess makes it possible...had known that members lost fingers and toes from frostbite, but WOW I didn't know until now that one dude took his boots and even his socks off and climbed the 2nd step barefoot. Holy freaking moley.. makes me wonder if they were forbidden to be unsuccessful... amazing everybody made it back down alive. Not sure if that first ascent (from the North, Tibet) was worth all that but I'm not them that's for sure. Crawled to the summit after oxygen ran out... again, WOW.
Ok hear me out, Irvine and Mallory summited. The Chinese found Irvine and his camera and developed the pictures years before, that gave them in the info about the terrain above the second/third step and summit tower. Tinfoil hat on.
The Chinese didn't find Irvines body. They didn't remove his body, and they didn't summit in 1960 using thoughts of chairman Mao to keep them warm, and strong. Also, Mallory, and Irvine did NOT climb the modern ridge route that people keep trying to say they did. Mallory himself stated he would not attempt the ridge. They climbed the same route Norton did just before, and he almost broke through. Mallory and Irvine did manage to break through the colouir and O'Dell likely saw them at the base of the third step. Also, the terms 1st 2nd, and 3rd step didn't exist in 1924.
Spike….you’re being a little spikey😂. 1) I was only having fun 2) some of the things you state as facts are only guesses. 3) don’t be spikey and enjoy the humour
@@pedrob188 not everything I said was "guesses" there is verifiable proof that Mallory did not intend to climb the ridge route. The proof is his own hand writing, and interviews/lectures he did on the mountain. Norton did reach his personal high point in the colouir (however you spell that damn word) just before, and also where Mallory told John Noel to watch for him and Irvine. The falsehoods surrounding M & I climbing the modern route just keeps getting thrown around all willy nilly, when he said multiple times that climbing the ridge was not in his plans.
@@Spike-sk7ql The issue with that is Nortons route didn't go to the third step so Odell would unlikely have had his sighting unless it was at a point below the first step . Norton's route crosses over the couloir and goes up the northern face of the final pyramid as he described. Norton, Fight for Everest 1924: "Beyond the couloir the going got steadily worse "... "I had perhaps 200 feet more of this nasty going to surmount before I emerged on to the north face of the final pyramid and, I believe, safety and an easy route to the summit." Messner and the Australians broke out the couloir by Norton's high point and took the route Norton intended to take straight up the north face of the final pyramid.
It’s pretty damn impressive that they made it to the third step, which doesn’t seem to be in dispute. Most accounts I’ve heard say that there isn’t a lot to stop someone between the third step and the summit, but the problem is separating the truth from the propaganda.
We got to the top, grazed our knee on the way down, and they want rocks and summit photos...and they weren't proper mountaineers...screech of brakes,.....to pretend to have reached the summit...see Bourdillon and Evans (?), on closed circuit, after an attempt, with the statement, paraphrase, If you go any further you'll never see X again ..they were defeated...if you can follow my train of thought.....you can incentivise and coerce, but when your beat, there's no acting.
Unfortunately you can't believe anyone from this country especially at this time in history. Their government and forced way of life will always leave doubt. They wrre NOT PERMITTED to fail.
I don’t know … I feel like anyone dismissing the idea of these relatively inexperienced mountaineers making it to the summit should at least acknowledge the impact of Asian culture and nationalism on these men. With their society’s emphasis on honor and duty, its incredible work ethic and, of course, the sense of nationalism that likely compelled them, they were at least just as likely to push themselves even to the point of risking death as many others with far less motivation have done on Everest. When sufficiently propelled by honor, duty and perhaps some fear of the consequences of failure, these men may very well have accomplished something they might not otherwise have been capable of doing. And surely anyone credulous of the idea that 22-year-old Sandy Irvine, with primitive equipment and very little mountaineering experience, actually made it to the summit should hardly find the idea of the Chinese doing it in 1960 so outlandish? I’m no mountaineer, though, so I can’t speak authoritatively on the subject. I just think dismissing the idea so casually is insufficiently accounting for human nature and the specific cultural and political forces motivating these men. When you’re prepared to die doing something, you might very well do it, and maybe even live to tell the tale.
@kcbarbo78... I liked your comment very much! Motivation is a vital component of what drives mountaineers...then and now. I think that the issue of culture, time period, and individual character is important, and I'm glad you broached the subject from this important POV. I found your logic concise and very thoughtful. None of us were there in 1924 or 1960. It's easier to dismiss both attempts if the evidence doesn't meet personal standards, while some may find it totally compelling. Imho both teams may have succeeded, depending on whether or not success includes a safe descent. The mystery is the draw. I'm not sure I really want the definitive answer. Cheers!
I don't know to much about this but how did they go 19 hours on their final push with no water? and they had to descend to camp six before they got water (which would have been hours more)
On watching the video again it crossed my mind that the climbers new the hugely crucial importance of photographic /film proof evidence of their summiting success. If they summitted one would of thought they would /could of at least attempted to take pictures and film footage at the summit. Was it so dark that you couldn't even see each other Infront of themselves yet enough light to climb to the summit without lamps.. especially when surrounded by white snow covered ground and snow covered peak's near an distant, and clear skies ?. 🦅⚪✴️
Given that Everest/Qomolangma is in China, I find it harder to believe a westerner from a country with tiny mountains was the first up there than I do a Chinese climber. I shall now proceed to watch your video having only read its title. ;)
@narichey1981 Boring, mate. Been part of China for centuries. Royalty married into Chinese and vice versa. Same as most countries in Europe. And ten British pounds tells me you're the Yankee occupier of native American land no doubt.
I think someone should recreate the ascent and see how well it turns out for them. Same gear, no oxygen, no water, a camp on the ridge, and someone willing to sacrifice a few toes can take their boots off and climb barefoot.
There are plenty to show it's not only possible but has been done. Take Stephen Venables oxygenless ascent and bivy after doing a first ascent on the Kangshung face - EPIC Night in Death Zone - Kangshung Face of Everest: th-cam.com/video/9bocQEfDriI/w-d-xo.html
I’m gonna be the glass is half full person here. With absolutely no mountain climbing experience, and zero experience with anything like Everest, I will say they did make it. When you have nothing but determination and grit to drive you, you can pretty much do anything. The first to say it didn’t happen were the westerners. Will power and determination can make you climb mountains! IMO
its nearly impossible,from a biological perspective, to spend over 30 hours in the death zone, in extreme temps, without water and oxygen. by their own account the had no water and no cooker at the high camp near the first step. they were out in the open for over 30 hours, one of them supposedly doing a bivouac at the 3rd step overnight, and the only one that had any frostbite was the guy who supposedly took his shoes off. this was before modern outer gear, which yes can sometimes let people survive a night on everest, but they invariably come back missing all their digits and their noses. the simple reason for this is its a combination of oxygen and movement that keep you warm and also being able to get back to a tent and drink hot fluids to warm back up, and the modern gear helps. these guys, if the account of the climb are to be believed, ran out of oxygen, had no water even the night before, spent over a full day on the high mountain in what the indian climbers on the other side described as wind so strong it would turn you around. If their description of the descent is to be believed (and it shouldnt be), the came back to the high camp tent and spent another night there, and then 2 descended to camp 6 the next day, the first time they would have had any water in over days, and then the other 2 came down, descending all the way to north col, and that would be the first access to water those 2 had since the day before the summit attempt. is just not believable that those guys spent 2-3 days in the death zone with no water and no oxygen after the 3rd step. Unless thoughts of chairman moa are literally magic
.....LOL 'glass and a half' you've had too many Cadbury Dairy Milk chocolate bars ???.....and these 4 when they needed it the most, just didn't have any whatsoever !!!.....
Of course they made it to the summit. Where they found a note from Sandy Irvine which simply said, “first.” Mountaineers were the original TH-cam commentators.
Is there anything in the contemporaneous written account regarding finding human remains or other artifacts on the upper parts of the mountain? It is hard to gauge the veracity of the story without examining that written account in more detail. Given when they say they ran out of oxygen it would be hard to believe that they accomplished the summit. Another thing I was wonder was if their pitons in the ledge of the second step ever documented by a third party?
@@EverestMystery I agree that the British take a certain amount of pride in having organised the first successful expedition in 1953 to climb Mount Everest, not least because news arrived on the day of the coronation. Everyone recognises, however, that the mountaineers themselves were from Nepal and New Zealand; it was always an international team and an international effort. I really don't see any evidence, however, that the interest in establishing whether or not Irvine and Mallory reached the summit is in any way driven by British nationalism, either then or now, if that's your thinking. There was no pressure to lie about a successful summit in 1924, nor in subsequent unsuccessful expeditions in the 1930s.
Doubters, next expedition brought and fixed a 20 foot ladder to 2nd step. It was just a construction project for them, lol. If they had stamina to do that, why doubt summit,
Who knows? I do feel that they did not make it -- given their lack of climbing experience and their lack of water and their lack of sufficient O2... but what choice did they have but to claim they made the summit.... That is the problem with Communist and tyrannical governments.... You must follow the agenda, the script. So they may have made it...but they may have been afraid to say they were unsuccessful. It is possible they succeeded, but many climbers still lose toes and unfortunately their lives.... and don't make it to the summit.... I don't think we will ever know... y but either way, they at least survived and had a great adventure....
I applaud your belief that both parties were successful. Picking at those scabs is pointless, it brings out our biases. It's not making the world a better place, or bringing peace upon us to quibble over something like this. I think about all those devout monotheists over the years engaging in the animist Puja ceremonies that happen before summit attempts. At their cores they have not recieved Buddhism, but do act as humble visitors honoring their hosts. And it's a fun and harmonious story that makes everyone feel good. Things that cost us nothing, hurt no one, and celebrate the human spirit should have total immunity from scrutiny. If anyone's reputation or dollars are hurt however, weak cases like Mallory24 & CCP60 get dismissed from the docket with prejudice.
I think they filmed the summit after achieving the Second Step, then they called it a day. I don't think Mallory and Irvine even surmounted the Second Step before they fell. They likely tried, though.
A satisfaction to having read Simonson's book, to now recall the disbelief & 'isms expressed it's a fond memory, their mistakes cost them but their will to persist far outside very tough people with more experienced do a footjam no boots in desrt heat my flash. Best tho'ts to all 🍺
I'm going to be the first to make the summit thanks to the glorious leader Kim Jong Un. Because he's a living god, he's going to carry me on his back while wearing board shorts 🩳. 😂😂
Great story. 2 years of experience only? I have heard of beginner's luck but this is ridiculous. They definitely appear to have gotten close though so who knows?
Did they make it, maybe, as for what happened to their flag and bust of Mao, it would not be impossible to believe that after getting to the top they were so exhausted that they forgot to emplace them and just chucked of the side on the way down and picked up some rocks to take home from further down the mountain.
It strikes me that many of these comments are predicated by the writers attitude to past and present Chinese Governments. The only relevance that has for me is that perhaps the climbers couldn't contemplate failure. They had to do this and given the horrendous injuries and the filming at the third step (I assume that this can be proven to be early in the morning?) and the description of the false summit the story seems to me to hold together. Wouldn't be too dogmatic about it though!
He took off his crampons, okay, sure. And his boots?! Yeah, no. I smell dramatization. When getting stepped on, the difference between getting injured or not is not a pair of boots.
Nothing intrinsically special about the North side. The debate is about the first Northern ascent though, which always provokes extra attention/emotion.
There's only one explanation for why the Chinese have never allowed any independent body to verify that the 'summit' rocks actually came from the summit. We don't even need a discussion on the colour of the rocks not matching the hue of known summit rocks and instead matching the hue of thrombolite layer rocks. Let the rocks speak for themselves. By their own admission, they lost their pressure cooker at high camp and then miraculously climbed for 30 hours above 8500m meters, in the dark with no lights and not even moonlight. Thats an inhuman feat that maybe 1 in a million could achieve but we are to believe that 3 such men were on the mountain that day and all three returned. I'm sorry, but the 1960 summit simply has to be marked as a failure until proven otherwise.
@EverestMystery Who's to say? That answer most likely lies with the remains of the rest of Irvine's body. With Mallory and Irvine dying on the mountain, the odds are in their favour that they made the summit. Statistically, an overwhelming majority of people who die on Everest did not make a call to turn around and instead pushed for the summit. But a million things could have happened between Odell's last sighting and their deaths.
@@podgemcgrath Great stuff. The only thing I can't get behind is that the odds were in their favor that they made it. I'd love to be proven wrong but the odds were against them. Mallory turned around to save their lives, but it was too late. But, I do love the other thoughts on it. Thanks for watching and for sharing your thoughts
That story about the man climbing the second step is so unbelievably fantastic that it is almost comical. That said, based on how much manpower and money and resources the CCP used to lay siege to the mountain including that amazing road, I believe they bivouacked under the second step and realized they had to say they summited, because failure was not an option for them. So they said Okay we'll just say we reached it in the middle of the night. "well what do we do with chairman Mao?"........... :chucks it down toward the Ronbuk in silence,:
.....yes it's very clear now, the 3 Chinese amateur climbers made it to the 3rd Step in the dark of night with no head-lighting or torches, and thus thought that they had made the Everest Summit !!!.....it is very important to remember that it was not a moon-lit evening/early morning environment for them to behold, likewise not one of these men had ever been within and, or experienced this physical altitude and challenging environment previously, even during daylight hours ???.....hence, the logic here is that we are supposed to believe that they achieved this feat in the pitch-black, dark of night (early morning) without any fatality beyond the 3rd Step location !!!.....Ladies & Gentlemen of the Jury is this really what we are trying so hard to believe truly materialized here ???.....
Great video as always. As of 'Burgeon' After my recent hike in white mountains, i actually stopped by their store in Lincoln. Great apparel indeed. But in my opinion little bit over priced. But once again it's whatever floats your boat. Great product, but bit pricey.
Super interesting take on their gear. My first impression on Burgeon was that they were so affordably priced that I almost used that as a talking point for the video. I do appreciate your thoughts! Thanks so much for watching, it's always good to see you here!
Thom, I know you cant go over everything in a video but you brought up Bonnington as credibility for the Chinese ascent, Chris was negotiating for future 6 and 7000 meter unclimbed peak expeditions inside Chinese borders with the Chinese government then, let's be honest, there's no way he's going to refute the climb -He needed their permissions. And while that doesnt prove they didnt make it, I think we should throw out Bonnington's 80s analysis as professional pragmatism.
Super interesting, thank you. Perhaps I'll do a livestream next week and talk about this. Much appreciated. I still put Chris Bonington high on the list of credible individuals with high level of integrity. I'll do some more intel on this.
There's no f'n way I would do that for anybody. And carrying a bust of Mao, to boot. Shame on Mao for that. I'm guessing these three are of superhero strength? I read the comments below and honestly, the whole thing sounds implausible. But in the end, makes for a very interesting video!
Malory had some big cohonies on him to go for that second step. I think Irvine took the full tour of the north face that night and in a way I am glad he didn't get left alone on the mountain and freeze to death.. They should make a film now and the end is them both coming off the the second step. Malory was not leaving with out a good go at it. The Chinese had more sense and just sacked it and came down. Dudley Wolf should be made into a film too.
I’m only 5 mins into the video so far…but… The question on my mind is, why does the presenter not told us whether he wants to travel to China and get a future visa for visiting China. If he does, there may be a certain pressure he feels.
On the other hand, it is so typical for people to be sceptical of claims of remarkable achievements or new discoveries. The thing is humans do sometimes make great achievements. But on the 3rd hand… M & I probably made it thought we can’t know for sure. BTW, who’s got the M & I camera?
It was a remarkable acheivement - amateurs with poor equipment making it past the second step which better climbers (Wager, Shipton, etc) had seen to be impossible. People make fun of the Chairman Mao stuff, and fair enough, but it does show that nationalistic fervour is still a powerful motivator. Just not quite powerful enough to make a 30+ hour round trip to the summit from the N Ridge without water amd oxygen (and almost no frostbite from the summit trio). A great acheievement, but there was clearly no summit.
These men were not climbing for individual glory or achievement, it was "china" climbing the mountain, it was "Mao" climbing the mountain. They simply couldn't fail, they probably would have been executed. Their story is so far fetched, and their lack of evidence and unwillingness to allow examination of the "summit rocks" ( which look like they are from a lighter band further down) says it all really. They didn't make it. Chris boningtons comments are not to be taken seriously, as he knew only too well that the chinese could deny him access to the mountain if he didnt play along. And their knowledge of details of the terrain, only came to light in a much later interview, AFTER the 1975 expedition, where the chinese definitely DID make it so they could have been told this by their fellow countrymen.
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How amazing is it to hear someone cite their sources. Unheard of in this day and age. Well done my friend. Love the content. You have a new subscriber.
Thank you, I'm glad you found the channel!
They say they lost a tent and their cooker from the assault camp, so there was no way to get water for the climb. So we are to believe they did something like 30 hours of climbing above 8000 meters before they could get back to their camp 6 completely without water, and much of it without oxygen, with very little experience, in the dark on an unfamiliar route? By far the most likely thing that happened was they climbed the second step with pitons, they turned around at about the height of their highest photograph, so basically at the third step, because that's where they would have run out of oxygen. The question could be easily resolved by just letting a western geologist examine the summit rocks. The fact that the Chinese haven't taken that simple step tells me they dont want anyone examining those rocks.
They explained that in their hardest moments, they read Chairman Mao's bible, and his words gave them so much power and insiration, that they were able to archive the impossible.
@@AndyGraumann1which sounds like Chinese communist propaganda…
@@AndyGraumann1Same here Comrade.
Whenever I need that extra push of encouragement I’ll do the same. Its that inspirational Marxist literature that brings out the extra performance in me.
Yeah right, pure communist propaganda 🤣
@@narichey1981 Apparently they reached the advanced camp at 9p.m. the second day and slept there! So two nights above 8500 meters, no oxygen and no water! In comparison, Unsoeld and Hornbein are amateurs ;-)
Man oh man once again the ad read is a home-run 🔥 your advertisers found a winner here. Love your videos, keep it up!
Totally appreciate it! I love the company and didn't get paid to do it. I pray that this helps them grow.
@@EverestMysterylove that you’re supporting a local business!
Off topic, but your channel along with studying the endeavors of Mallory and Irvine have inspired me to into get mountaineering. I reached the summit of Mount Tecumseh this morning, my first 4000 footer. Keep up the good work Thom.
Thank you! Comments like yours make every single minute of this endeavor worth it! Congratulations on your summit of Tecumseh! I love that mountain. Keep going, my friend.... The snows are soon to arrive. If you want to know of a great, quite easy, hike, check out Mt. Crawford, which goes up the Davis Path on Rt 302 in Hart's Location. 2.5 miles up and 2.5 miles back (it's not a 4000 footer). I am going to do a short members video (also free to my patrons at patreon.com/everestmystery) showing clips from that hike yesterday. Thanks for being here!
Rad🎉 keep on trekkin
Missed your live stream but i'm awake for this... cheers superchief.. (you've had a big day) lotsa love from australia
I really enjoyed your delivery of a fascinating subject. Thank you so much for taking the time Thom 😊
Thank you Thom. As I've said before, I am no mountain climber, but I was a skeleton athlete, and love the ideal of pushing myself beyond my imagined limits. I suspect the two disciplines have a spirit in common. Peace, love and happiness from Australia.
Thanks so much for the kindness, I truly appreciate it. Yes, the suffering aspect is very appealing to many who go deep into certain sports, which you are familiar with! Thank you for watching : )
The idea that these 3 inexperienced climbers can summit Mount Everest for the first time of humanity without lights and oxygen is absolutely ludicrous. If there’s not photographic/video evidence, their summit didn’t happen. It’s possible the story about no oxygen is completely false if a summit did happen. But to me the story has too many elements of impossibility to be true.
No more believable than two guys doing it in 1924.
If the Chinese did it (lacking evidence) then so did Mallory (also lacking evidence).
@@pauldavis4287 I am with you. They are all supposed to have rocks. You can tell the difference in the rocks from the summit from all the other rocks on the mountain. They are supposed to grab rocks from the highest point of their ascent if they are forced to turn around.
I'm sorry but those two climbers in 1924 were actual mountaineers... With oxygen... Taking a much less technical equipment heavy (or human ladders and the teachings of Mao, along with a bronze bust they of the great leader they 100% left on Everest 🤣). Among MANY other easily found details, the actual facts of what was driving the expeditions and who and what the climbers and support teams were doing is probably the most important factor... One was to share knowledge and science of the mountain with the world and the internal drive to try reaching the top for personal reasons... The other supposedly for similar reasons, but more time was spent filming spectacular propaganda with CCP selected individuals to represent certain aspects of communist culture 🤔 Also the Chinese summit team bragging so much about scientific study during the expedition, yet NEVER allowing the summit rocks from the 1960 expedition ever to be studied outside of a small "group of experts" within China... Mallory and Irvine also planned to collect summit rocks, along with all the previously collected scientific information and various rock samples with geologists from around the world... Nobody should've ever wasted time searching Mallory for some camera that isn't even a VPK and may not even exist instead of a carefully conducted search for summit rock fragments... That chance is now gone, and unless the rest of Irvine is found with intact pockets/gear we will never know... All the 1960 team had to do was less meditation over the teachings of Mao they all had to carry and send some summit rocks to any western laboratory capable of making the determination... One team was focused on real goals with self determination and in depth training/previous experience on the mountain with and without oxygen on routes that had recently been checked by previous teams... The other team was there strictly make a state propaganda film, yet in 1960 didn't decide taking lights or cameras to the top was a critical part of that propaganda stunt... Yet they remembered to bring down summit rocks! Only to not allow 3rd party testing where they would be on site to challenge any particular geologists comparisons themselves... 🤔 Are you starting to see why a team of 200 "expedition members" so superior to westerners that they don't require oxygen, while taking hundreds or thousands of pictures and hours of video all while referening Mao every other sentence may be a bit less trustworthy than a dedicated group of hardened WW1 veterans on a mission to study and climb the unknown for the world and their personal goals, not their oppressive government's that made that expedition SOLELY for propaganda inside and outside the CCP? Why did the 1965 team require oxygen, use local Sherpas, and provide enough evidence to actually be globally accepted as successfully making the summit? 🤦♂️ Why would the government support another expedition only 5 years after after this disastrous failure of a complete propaganda project? Why did they decide to send a group with some actual experience and evil western technology to achieve success "again"? A silly comparison in a silly remark to even mention this "project" and the 1924 expedition... One group may have actually reached the summit, do some research beyond this video and you may figure out which group even had a plausible chance of making the summit...
@@rtqii Scientists can really tell the difference between a rock from the summit and one from let's say the third step?
Thanks for always giving your valuable literature and other sources to allow us to further satisfy our Mystery curiosity!
Thank you for posting these videos! 😊
The story of this "ascent" would be more believable if they had said a Yeti helped them over the difficult bits, of course no one who wants to get a permit to enter Tibet is going to say anything to upset the Chinese who occupy the country. China could have dispelled any scepticism by allowing the summit rocks to be examined by an independent geologist, I doubt if Mao would have missed a few grams.
I believe they found Irvine's body and possibly the camera as well, and quietly disposed of both. It would be just like the communists to whitewash history and ensure the narrative that they were the first to reach the summit from the north side.
Everyone would question that story since clearly no manufacturer has Yeti sized crampons in their line.
@@Obeythebeardthe yeti doesn’t need Crampons duh
@@Obeythebeardyetis have natural crampons on their bare feet.
@@Spike-sk7ql maybe yeti claws - act as crampons. Ever think of that!
Love your work!
Thanks SO much, I really appreciate it!
Thanks for sharing the content and your thoughts
I enjoyed your live stream. I noted there were questions that your subs asked including mine, but never addressed. Your subs help your awesome channel grow. IMO
Hi, please let me know what question I missed. I try to get to as many of the questions as possible. I plan on doing another livestream next week and will put you to the top of the line : )
I've been watching your videos and learning a lot about Everest. While I'm not a climber or mountaineer myself, I'm truly fascinated by the history of Everest as the world's highest peak-much like how I enjoy learning about Titanic. I’d love to hear your take on the story of Nobukazu Kuriki.
Same! Found his channel today and I have literally never heard of any of these people but I've already watched like five of his videos and I'm just going to keep on watching because I find it all really interesting.
So, still we have people claiming the British team in 24 was climbing the modern ridge route, when Mallory said many times that he did NOT plan on climbing the ridge. Also, Norton and Summerville almost broke through the coloure right before Mallory, and Irvine's climb. There is Mallorys own writings about NOT climbing the ridge. Malloryand Irvine never attempted to climb the 2nd step, so of course there wouldnt be anything there from prior expeditions.
Friend and Everest historian Jochen Hemmleb has said on many occasions, please show him the writings of Mallory where he stated he would not climb the ridge. (He's still waiting.) There's no proof either way of which route they took. Jochen wrote this to me some time ago: "There is nothing in Mallory’s writing that suggests that he intended to take the ridge. He wrote in 1921 that he was aware of the difficulties of the crest and that obstacles might be circumvented via ledges on the north face. Equally, there is nothing in his writing that says explicitly that he didn’t want to follow the ridge." If someone is saying anything contrary to what Jochen explained, that person has done a disservice to the truth.
@@EverestMystery There has become far too much emotion, nationalism & politics over the North Face of Everest.
There's a good chance that Mallory & Irvine made it to the summit, if they went across the face like Norton & Somervell and found a "zig zag" route up to the summit pyramid before the couloir. The timings don't work in relation to Odell if they crossed the Couloir. That's a big 'if', given Messner's views on that likely ascent terrain. They clearly didn't, if they went along the ridge line to 'the 2nd step'.
As I am of the school that it doesn't really count unless you safely get back down, I have no particular axe to grind.
I think much of the problem with all of this is that a modern ridge line ascent mentality became entrenched before people really applied their minds and went into Mallory's & Irvine's communications in detail (written & verbal, within the expeditions and in letters to the UK). Not helped by Odell's 12.50pm sighting comment, or rather his later attempts at clarifying what he saw. People are now too afraid to backtrack from previous assertions, when they shouldn't be.
Whatever Mallory's plans were, they didn't include taking Irvine to the near 150ft rock face of 'the 2nd step' at 28,000 plus feet and it's difficult to think of anything that even a snow blind Norton could have said that would have induced him to suddenly do that. Across the face was the only route to the summit, with the equipment of the era.
A rather obvious explanation for the demise of Mallory & Irvine is that they were on the mountain way too late. What's the first reason that jumps to mind as to why that might well have been (complete with pocketed snow goggles & no photo of Ruth Mallory)...? We now know exactly what a menace summit fever is on that mountain, without gabardine clothing and hob nail boots on a late and freezing descent.
As for 1960, I don't trust totalitarian communist dictatorships (let alone one of the monsters of history in Mao), I don't blame anyone for doing and saying what they needed to do to stay alive (including high altitude climbers) and I would welcome China opening up the 'summit rocks' to international testing. I somehow doubt they ever will.
@@EverestMysteryif he can't find any writings or accounts of Mallory saying he wouldn't climb the ridge route then he didn't look very hard.
@@LoreTunderin Post them here please
@@gjpowell thanks. so much! Good analysis. Quick thoughts to contemplate: there is no zig-zag, and that which is referred to as that route has been scoped from above by Jake Norton, who shivered at its impossibility. Further, there isn't a good chance M&I made the summit. The good chance is that they did not. If they sauntered up, why then didn't the 1933 and 1938 expeditions succeed? Also, Mallory never once wrote that he wouldn't take the ridge route....no one has ever shown the writing that proves it. Even if he did, he also said that Khumbu Icefall was impossible. He was obviously wrong. No one can ever say with assurance that Mallory never intended to take Irvine up the ridge. Norton had just gotten his ass kicked on the couloir, and he wasn't that close. He got beaten, and reported quite woeful conditions. Totally agree that M&I were too late on the mountain. If they were at the base of the pyramid at 12:50 (and most signs point to them not being there, but lower on the ridge, as Frank Smythe said in his book Camp Six) they never would have been able to summit then get back so far east to where Mallory was found, or the ice axe for that matter. Regarding China, I don't think Mao or the Cultural Revolution or anything takes away from these guys going after it. Sure it was replete with propaganda. However, that could be said for the colonialist Brits, as well, who were emerging from WWI, talking about how to conquer Everest. Cheers, my friend and thanks for the great conversation!
Thanks for the video.
I don't know whether the Chinese team reached the summit in 1960. That they described things on the summit doesn't entirely prove anything. The Chinese could have taken extensive photographic surveillance of the mountain top in order to prepare the team. Maybe everyone on the team knew what to expect. That many of the lost fingers and toes doesn't entirely prove anything. They might have lost fingers and toes making the attempt and never getting there. Accounts of their ascent given after others had made the ascent have less evidentiary value because they could have used the accounts that others gave to supplement their own stories. None of this means that they didn't get there, but the evidence that you give here is not conclusive.
From the photographic evidence, they certainly reached the area above the second step and probably the third step. They have the pictures to show that part of their accomplishment.
The other side of the coin is that Mao killed about seventy million of his own citizens for the glory of Chinese communism. Most people who go to Everest don't have to worry about being arrested or having their family members arrested if they fail. If these four men ended up above the third step and not able to get any higher, I can't blame them for concocting a story as they sat in a bivouac somewhere. If they repeated the story to themselves enough while in those oxygen-deprived conditions, they might have come to believe the story themselves. By making the story believable, they saved themselves and their families from the consequences of disappointing Mao.
I have no doubt that they did nothing but train during the two years before the attempt. To me, that's always been a fascinating thought. If one took a few hundred people who are basically random people except that they would volunteer to make the attempt, could one build a successful team in a year or two? The idea would be to build a home for them at ten or twelve thousand feet above sea level to start changing their bodies to acclimate to higher altitudes. The organizers would then bring in instructors in mountaineering or send the students elsewhere for the best instruction in mountaineering. The team members would have very controlled diets and exercise regimes. They would be climbing somewhere almost continuously. Team members who were found to have weaker bodies or some other disability would be removed from the team. Team members who showed a propensity for high altitude sickness of any kind would be removed from the team. Today, the task would be a little easier because so many people have climbed the mountain and told us about the challenges. In the late 1950's, a country that was determined to make this effort and had access to the mountain could learn a great deal by flying military surveillance planes above the mountain and take pictures of everything. I really don't know whether a team that had spent two years doing nothing except training for the climb would be unprepared or extraordinarily well prepared.
It all depends on the person. I lost ninety pounds. And a year later, I climbed mount Adam's and mount Rainier.In a twenty four hour period. But no.
I don't believe their story
A thoughtful comment, thank you!
Beck Weathers lost fingers, toes and a nose. Using the same logic, did he reach the summit also and is just too shy to tell everyone?
Totally. I'd be willing to bet they were under duress. "We made it, Chairman Mao. Please give us back our families."
Communist Russia tried to prove communism worked by excessively exporting grain, which starved the citizens.
No one was above 2nd step before those guys. And you can't see those features from the summit.
Everest Mystery all the way! Greetings from Zagreb, Croatia🙏💪
Thank you! So great to see someone from Croatia! Greetings right back from northeastern USA.
Excellent, objective report of this story. I haven’t heard about it before so I’m not sure what I think… but I really wonder what would happen if the Chinese refused to believe the Europeans and sent ‘Chinese experts’ to make sure it was true. The fact that this is literally unimaginable speaks volumes.
@@lornarettig3215 I'm not sure what age you are but I'm old enough to remember the cold war, my uncle served in the Korean war whilst I served in West Germany in the seventies and eighties. This claim of an ascent of Everest wasn't about climbing, it was a statement that the Chinese communist system was superior to the west. Bear in mind the Chinese had their arses kicked in the Korean war by a US led coalition, backed by the UK and others less than a decade previously. Add to that a claim of a first ascent that beggars belief, the only proof of which is a photo taken from somewhere other than the summit.
The only time a Chinese propagandist looks honest is when he's standing next to a used car dealer.
🤣🤣
😂😂😂😂😂
Excellent job on this video, Thom. You gave a very balanced presentation with great visuals. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that they did summit but it's not difficult to see why some are doubtful. Thanks so much for putting this together. Peace be with you.
Their description of the Summit doesn’t even match the Summit, it sounds more like the false summit. They have never released the Summit Rocks for analysis. They were inexperienced climbers warming themselves “through the thoughts of Chairman Mao”
They didn’t make it. It’s far more likely that Mallory and Irvine did. It’s weird that there is always this obsession with finding a camera with Mallory and Irvine when Mallory stated he would collect summit rocks, and yet we uncritically accept that the Chinese couldn’t take a photo whilst never demanding to see their Summit Rocks.
Selective skepticism at its finest, I suppose. There's no way 18 people assisting an assault on the ridge could have made it in 1960. But, two men in woefully inadequate clothing and gear did make it, decades before, one of them completely inexperienced in climbing. The last sentence: dude, don't believe the faceless, monotoned hate-monger who wants to paint a picture of something in order to grow his channel.
@@EverestMystery I can see that the last sentence has come across quite below the belt. It was a bit thoughtless and thrown in not to attack you but to say that we might not get to know definitively with Mallory and Irvine. I will edit it out now. You can’t unread it, but no one else has to. I appreciate you responding, to be honest I thought it would get lost amongst a sea of comments. I am going to stick by the rest of what I said though, I don’t see it as selective scepticism. I am no more certain of either the 1924 or the 1960 expedition making the summit.
@@EverestMysteryAgreed, it seems much more plausible the Chinese made it than Mallory & Irvine, not because M&I were lesser than but simply because 36 years seperated them. Their oxygen apparatus was far more unreliable, they started off far below the Chinese in Camp VI, they had just 2 vs 4 men to handle the 2nd Step, no photography from M&I from 1924, and perhaps, most pressingly, they both died, while the Chinese lived (inc even the chap who bravely took off his boots & managed to successfully traverse the 2nd Step, and still affixed a bolt over the course of an hour, so he must have been relatively lucid). The (likely) success of the Chinese takes nothing away from M&I tenacity, courage & sacrifice - and being a sour puss & just adding to the contempt & vitriol online as some 'other' TH-cam channels seem all too comfortable doing (*cough* Mr Tracy *cough*) just does a disservice to their memory.
@@benjaminwaters241 totally cool, and honestly, I've forgotten what you are going to edit out! I appreciate the time you took to reply. Thanks so much
The fact that they have footage from the second step leads me to believe that they may have actually summited.
Really enjoying your channel and the way you present these stories. I'm familiar with China and Chinese culture and I don't doubt the determination of this team or that they probably made it, though I understand why some might. Thanks for bringing these stories to life!
Thanks very much! I’m glad you enjoyed the video and that you took the time to share your thoughts
Let's apply the same standards and show the verifiable proof, if none is available, then 1924 was a no and 1960 was equally a no.
The proof is the honourable corroboration provided by each of the summiteers. It’s like a golf scorecard signed by your fellow player.
@@pauldavis4287I believe Mallory or Irvine made it to the summit, but only because I want to believe. There is zero evidence, or even a claim they made it. The 1960 claim has direct evidence in from three eye witnesses. Not everyone believes the eye witnesses, but from an evidence standpoint, they win.
@colin1493 yeah, that's not worth the paper it's written on. The entire group could easily lie. We need a minimum of circumstantial evidence for any of the claims.
@pauldavis4287 Nailed it.
@@colin1493 Only with Chairman Mao looking over your shoulder…
Sounds like how Kim Jong got 11 holes in one the first time he ever played golf
Similar egos between Mao and Kim
Love your videos. Always a pleasure to watch
@harrisongray9172 thom has been keeping me sane. Been in bed sick for a year and Thom's knowledge expertise and passion has kept my spirits up... much better than Netflix. Cheers bud
I did meet one of the summit climbers, Mr Chu I think, in 1981 when I was in Beijing on my way to the Himalayas as part of a New Zealand expedition. We talked to him through our interpreter and we were all satisfied that they had got to the summit. I don’t think they were the first, as there is an excellent chance that Mallory and Irvine also got there on their expedition.
@@tonycharlton1424 that's very cool
Tony, this is fascinating. I'd love to connect with you and hear the story!
I've never been above 14 thousand feet so I can hardly speak about Everest, but I know one thing I used to love to do and that was ski at night under a full moon without lights. Does anyone know what the moon phase might have been?
You could probably find that out with a quick google search.
Wow, very interesting! Loved the old footage! 😎
Greetings from East Tennessee 🤠
Thanks for watching!
This was really interesting. If Chris Bonington was happy with their account, that’s compelling enough for me.
Inexperienced climbers, without water for 19 hours, not familiar with the route, at night, in bad conditions, very little photographic evidence. If you think they (the Chinese) summited, I feel bad for your soft forehead.
@bboss8048 wow there's a lot to unpack in your comment, inexperienced climbers you say? Not familiar with route? (Only some of it) at night? In bad conditions? (That's debatable) photographic evidence? (Search for camera continues) ... I feel nobody is 'softbrained' here, it's some people like/hope to believe they made it, just like bigfoot or God being real.. if you were a betting man you'd probably bet against them having made the summit, that's the smart bet.. but it's nice to let people have hope without insulting them mate.. cheers bud, hope I didn't bore you..
@bboss8048 hey mate I'm so sorry, I was watching Thom's livestream (not live) and then stared watching this new video on my phone.. I thought I was responding to a negative mallory irvine comment.. again I'm so sorry. Proved to myself I can't do 2 things at once. Sorry. cheers (I'll delete my original post if it comes back up, and yes I agree with your comment totally. Chinese wouldn't release summit rocks for testing? Why?)
@burfollydurmak4826 no worries mate.
@@burfollydurmak4826 Don't worry. You are not alone. I can't chew gum and walk at the same time!
@@burfollydurmak4826 lol What was your original comment?😂
Great video Thom. It is hard to believe, they found their way at night without light. They made it to the citadel falsely thinking it was the summit.
I have a background in engineering, not mountain climbing, and I say absolutely not! One son can't decide, and the younger believes there is no way they made it. I believe they had great incentive to lie and make up this absurd tale to save their hides!
No matter what, as always, we enjoyed the upload and the discussion it encouraged. We learn so much interesting history from you, friend! What a hoot, and fun time learning with my sons!
Always great having you here! Personally, I have no dog in the race and found myself more intrigued and swayed by the nod from Chris Bonington and Jochen Hemmleb. But, your sons will concur, I could be wrong! Thanks for watching and give my regards to the boys!
I doubt it. And I remain convinced they took irvines body off in 75 to maintain their first northern summit
@laurarichter1780 Now proved as false as Irvine's boot with remains of his foot has been found weeks ago at the bottom of the North Face. If they found Irvine had evidence of submitting they would've taken that and then thrown him off the mountain
George Mallory and Andrew Irvine were the girst to get to the summit of Everest. I totally believe that they made it, and both fell and sucome to the elements on the way Down...
If no definitive proof is available of the Chinese summit then just like Mallory and Irvines summit requiring definative proof on summiting it's unlikely the Chinese summitted,.. but not impossible and will remain another mystery.. Unlike the Chinese attempt Mallory and Irvine still have a chance of definitive proof they made it if Irvine's body or a camera are ever found. Great respect to Mallory and Irvine and the Chinese climber's regardless if summiting or not they are all amazing human beings to be admired and deserve to receive "Legends Status"... It gives me slightly more belief after watching your video that Mallory summited if the Chinese did actually summit given the questionable lack of climbing experience/ability of the Chinese climbers and the poor conditions during their attempt,,, where as Mallory and Irvine had better conditions and Mallory was an exceptionally strong climber 🤔
Thanks for the insights! Graham Hoyland, who has done extensive research on the 1924 expedition, has said that the weather on the day of Mallory and Irvine's summit attempt was along the lines of the weather on May 10, 1996 when the disaster happened. He believes given the weather it would have precluded any chance of them making the summit in that kind of clothing. But, again, we really don't know and can't count them out! Thanks for watching!
I don’t doubt they summited. Great episode to make a decision. Chris Bonnington and Eric Simonson’s beliefs swung me to believe their success.
9:30 had me in stitches. Bare foot!? Sure you could get some of the trek done… but afterwards it’s gonna be very hard to warm those feet up back to a safe place.
That's probably why he lost all his toes. I'm not they made it or not, but the man did lose his toes.
@ you are correct and i think he lost the toes because of bad thermals mixed in with cold temps, among other factors contributed to his frostbite. I feel they lied about the barefoot part to make the Chinese look more masculine and bad ass than just getting regular ole frostbite from the cold.
I have major doubts. The different versions are already at odds with each other.
So, they spend the night at the advanced camp, just below the first step at 8500 metres, without a stove, and therefore without water. They set off the next day at 9am to reach the summit the following day at 4.20am. They were back at the advanced camp at around 9pm that day, where they bivouacked again, still without water. So the guys spent 3 nights at over 8500 metres without water, food or oxygen, without freezing to death - that's the real achievement. Frankly, Buhl, Hornbein and Unsoeld are amateurs in comparison.
On the other hand, I do think they reached the area around the third step.
Good stuff!
I agree they stopped just short of the third step. It was getting dark by then, so a good location to start concocting a summit story!
It is not that hard after 2nd step. And they shot video much higher
@@mktdul2095 So the Chinese got a camera and a film camera and took just one photo and one film, of which we only know one shot from their two days? Two photos of landscapes, no photos of mountaineers above 8200 m, that's really very few. Why take dead weight?
And according to the Chinese accounts, they passed the second step at around midday and reached the summit at around 2am (Nepal time).
@marcmonnerat4850 you are talking like that was a summer picnic. If you read any book on deathzone, youd kinda expect that camera wasnt a priority. Everyone agrees that the shots are from around 3rd step after which summit is just a matter of time. One thing that absolutely convinces me is statistics. Chinese listed 7 features of the final approach. It is absolutely statistically impossible to get them all right without actually experiencing that. Note that they are not simple left/right, up/down features, they are major unforseen obsracles and detours, even fake summit. Statistical probability of getting that right without being there is 0.00000005%.
You don’t need to get anywhere near the summit to lose your toes to frostbite. Ask Beck Weather.
So true
I would like to hear a geologist talk about rock structure along various parts of the ridge. Was or is there signs of rock collapse at the base of the step? Degradation can turn a once easy pitch into a major crux.
Thanks for the analysis. It would seen to me that they made it to the second step and turned around due to lack of oxygen and supplies. I'm astonished that Liu was found alive.
Like several others, I was initially skeptical of the successful summit by the Chinese in 1960. For all the reasons described by mystery, and also pointed out by other mountaineers, and the comments. But... I don't have the same level of doubt now after the evidence shown in the video. Gonna watch again because I don't recall hearing what time the summit team departure from their super -high camp. Traditional departure time for summit bids is around midnight. Mallory and Irvin even left at daybreak. Their times seem odd to me, idk...I can remember mystery said they were breathing their Oz at a rate of 3 liters ph, and that's a pretty strong flow combined with the ultra high camp, I guess makes it possible...had known that members lost fingers and toes from frostbite, but WOW I didn't know until now that one dude took his boots and even his socks off and climbed the 2nd step barefoot. Holy freaking moley.. makes me wonder if they were forbidden to be unsuccessful... amazing everybody made it back down alive. Not sure if that first ascent (from the North, Tibet) was worth all that but I'm not them that's for sure. Crawled to the summit after oxygen ran out... again, WOW.
Ok hear me out, Irvine and Mallory summited. The Chinese found Irvine and his camera and developed the pictures years before, that gave them in the info about the terrain above the second/third step and summit tower. Tinfoil hat on.
The Chinese didn't find Irvines body. They didn't remove his body, and they didn't summit in 1960 using thoughts of chairman Mao to keep them warm, and strong. Also, Mallory, and Irvine did NOT climb the modern ridge route that people keep trying to say they did. Mallory himself stated he would not attempt the ridge. They climbed the same route Norton did just before, and he almost broke through. Mallory and Irvine did manage to break through the colouir and O'Dell likely saw them at the base of the third step. Also, the terms 1st 2nd, and 3rd step didn't exist in 1924.
Spike….you’re being a little spikey😂. 1) I was only having fun 2) some of the things you state as facts are only guesses. 3) don’t be spikey and enjoy the humour
@@pedrob188 not everything I said was "guesses" there is verifiable proof that Mallory did not intend to climb the ridge route. The proof is his own hand writing, and interviews/lectures he did on the mountain. Norton did reach his personal high point in the colouir (however you spell that damn word) just before, and also where Mallory told John Noel to watch for him and Irvine. The falsehoods surrounding M & I climbing the modern route just keeps getting thrown around all willy nilly, when he said multiple times that climbing the ridge was not in his plans.
@@pedrob188 oh, and I did get a chuckle out of the original comment.
@@Spike-sk7ql The issue with that is Nortons route didn't go to the third step so Odell would unlikely have had his sighting unless it was at a point below the first step . Norton's route crosses over the couloir and goes up the northern face of the final pyramid as he described.
Norton, Fight for Everest 1924:
"Beyond the couloir the going got steadily worse "...
"I had perhaps 200 feet more of this nasty going to surmount before I emerged on to the north face of the final pyramid and, I believe, safety and an easy route to the summit."
Messner and the Australians broke out the couloir by Norton's high point and took the route Norton intended to take straight up the north face of the final pyramid.
It’s pretty damn impressive that they made it to the third step, which doesn’t seem to be in dispute.
Most accounts I’ve heard say that there isn’t a lot to stop someone between the third step and the summit, but the problem is separating the truth from the propaganda.
If the Chinese conquered Everest in 1960, why did they climb again with ladders in 1975?
They took one ladder with them which they fixed to the second step to aid passage of the head wall. This was the only ladder on Everest at the time. 🪜
@@Daledugahole I know why they took the ladder. Why did they climb in 1975 if they claimed to have reached the summit in 1960? Or maybe they didn't?
Been thinking about this vid all day...
We got to the top, grazed our knee on the way down, and they want rocks and summit photos...and they weren't proper mountaineers...screech of brakes,.....to pretend to have reached the summit...see Bourdillon and Evans (?), on closed circuit, after an attempt, with the statement, paraphrase, If you go any further you'll never see X again ..they were defeated...if you can follow my train of thought.....you can incentivise and coerce, but when your beat, there's no acting.
The Council Library Van, used to come round, and my mother would get some books, she said, read that one....Savage Arena....and off we go!
Unfortunately you can't believe anyone from this country especially at this time in history.
Their government and forced way of life will always leave doubt.
They wrre NOT PERMITTED to fail.
Yeah.... True. They probably had to convince their government more than anybody else.
I don’t know … I feel like anyone dismissing the idea of these relatively inexperienced mountaineers making it to the summit should at least acknowledge the impact of Asian culture and nationalism on these men. With their society’s emphasis on honor and duty, its incredible work ethic and, of course, the sense of nationalism that likely compelled them, they were at least just as likely to push themselves even to the point of risking death as many others with far less motivation have done on Everest. When sufficiently propelled by honor, duty and perhaps some fear of the consequences of failure, these men may very well have accomplished something they might not otherwise have been capable of doing. And surely anyone credulous of the idea that 22-year-old Sandy Irvine, with primitive equipment and very little mountaineering experience, actually made it to the summit should hardly find the idea of the Chinese doing it in 1960 so outlandish? I’m no mountaineer, though, so I can’t speak authoritatively on the subject. I just think dismissing the idea so casually is insufficiently accounting for human nature and the specific cultural and political forces motivating these men. When you’re prepared to die doing something, you might very well do it, and maybe even live to tell the tale.
@kcbarbo78...
I liked your comment very much! Motivation is a vital component of what drives mountaineers...then and now. I think that the issue of culture, time period, and individual character is important, and I'm glad you broached the subject from this important POV. I found your logic concise and very thoughtful.
None of us were there in 1924 or 1960. It's easier to dismiss both attempts if the evidence doesn't meet personal standards, while some may find it totally compelling.
Imho both teams may have succeeded, depending on whether or not success includes a safe descent.
The mystery is the draw. I'm not sure I really want the definitive answer.
Cheers!
I agree with you. I believe that they made it.
I don't know to much about this but how did they go 19 hours on their final push with no water? and they had to descend to camp six before they got water (which would have been hours more)
On watching the video again it crossed my mind that the climbers new the hugely crucial importance of photographic /film proof evidence of their summiting success. If they summitted one would of thought they would /could of at least attempted to take pictures and film footage at the summit. Was it so dark that you couldn't even see each other Infront of themselves yet enough light to climb to the summit without lamps.. especially when surrounded by white snow covered ground and snow covered peak's near an distant, and clear skies ?. 🦅⚪✴️
Given that Everest/Qomolangma is in China, I find it harder to believe a westerner from a country with tiny mountains was the first up there than I do a Chinese climber.
I shall now proceed to watch your video having only read its title. ;)
Enjoy!
@@youngmurphy7556 it's in Tibet and Nepal. China is just a military occupier
@narichey1981 Boring, mate. Been part of China for centuries. Royalty married into Chinese and vice versa. Same as most countries in Europe. And ten British pounds tells me you're the Yankee occupier of native American land no doubt.
The facts are known. Revisionism isn't required.@@youngmurphy7556
Yeah, I call BS on the climbing in stocking feet.
Can you do a video on where Marco Siffredi's body is likely to be on the mountain?
If they were the first depends on wether Mallory / Irvine made it in 1924
I think someone should recreate the ascent and see how well it turns out for them. Same gear, no oxygen, no water, a camp on the ridge, and someone willing to sacrifice a few toes can take their boots off and climb barefoot.
There are plenty to show it's not only possible but has been done. Take Stephen Venables oxygenless ascent and bivy after doing a first ascent on the Kangshung face - EPIC Night in Death Zone - Kangshung Face of Everest: th-cam.com/video/9bocQEfDriI/w-d-xo.html
Another great video Thom. Thank you.
Thanks my friend!
A.R.M.Chair Mountaineering UK, so they sat on the ridge for 3 days without moving... they'd still be there.
Imagine the story with outside observers. At least the Wright Brothers brought along people who had nothing to gain.
I’m gonna be the glass is half full person here. With absolutely no mountain climbing experience, and zero experience with anything like Everest, I will say they did make it. When you have nothing but determination and grit to drive you, you can pretty much do anything. The first to say it didn’t happen were the westerners. Will power and determination can make you climb mountains! IMO
its nearly impossible,from a biological perspective, to spend over 30 hours in the death zone, in extreme temps, without water and oxygen. by their own account the had no water and no cooker at the high camp near the first step. they were out in the open for over 30 hours, one of them supposedly doing a bivouac at the 3rd step overnight, and the only one that had any frostbite was the guy who supposedly took his shoes off. this was before modern outer gear, which yes can sometimes let people survive a night on everest, but they invariably come back missing all their digits and their noses. the simple reason for this is its a combination of oxygen and movement that keep you warm and also being able to get back to a tent and drink hot fluids to warm back up, and the modern gear helps. these guys, if the account of the climb are to be believed, ran out of oxygen, had no water even the night before, spent over a full day on the high mountain in what the indian climbers on the other side described as wind so strong it would turn you around. If their description of the descent is to be believed (and it shouldnt be), the came back to the high camp tent and spent another night there, and then 2 descended to camp 6 the next day, the first time they would have had any water in over days, and then the other 2 came down, descending all the way to north col, and that would be the first access to water those 2 had since the day before the summit attempt. is just not believable that those guys spent 2-3 days in the death zone with no water and no oxygen after the 3rd step. Unless thoughts of chairman moa are literally magic
.....LOL 'glass and a half' you've had too many Cadbury Dairy Milk chocolate bars ???.....and these 4 when they needed it the most, just didn't have any whatsoever !!!.....
Of course they made it to the summit. Where they found a note from Sandy Irvine which simply said, “first.” Mountaineers were the original TH-cam commentators.
Is there anything in the contemporaneous written account regarding finding human remains or other artifacts on the upper parts of the mountain? It is hard to gauge the veracity of the story without examining that written account in more detail.
Given when they say they ran out of oxygen it would be hard to believe that they accomplished the summit. Another thing I was wonder was if their pitons in the ledge of the second step ever documented by a third party?
Did the second climbers to summit Everest find the Plaster cast of Chair man Mao?
They're Chinese, doing it for Mao, why on earth would you believe them? As someone has already eluded to, they're not permitted to fail.
Not unlike the Brits doing it for the Crown, I guess. It's all in the perspective.
@@EverestMystery I agree that the British take a certain amount of pride in having organised the first successful expedition in 1953 to climb Mount Everest, not least because news arrived on the day of the coronation. Everyone recognises, however, that the mountaineers themselves were from Nepal and New Zealand; it was always an international team and an international effort. I really don't see any evidence, however, that the interest in establishing whether or not Irvine and Mallory reached the summit is in any way driven by British nationalism, either then or now, if that's your thinking. There was no pressure to lie about a successful summit in 1924, nor in subsequent unsuccessful expeditions in the 1930s.
I dont know much but if they got summit rocks surely these could be analysed and prove they reached the top.
Doubters, next expedition brought and fixed a 20 foot ladder to 2nd step. It was just a construction project for them, lol. If they had stamina to do that, why doubt summit,
Who knows? I do feel that they did not make it -- given their lack of climbing experience and their lack of water and their lack of sufficient O2... but what choice did they have but to claim they made the summit.... That is the problem with Communist and tyrannical governments.... You must follow the agenda, the script. So they may have made it...but they may have been afraid to say they were unsuccessful. It is possible they succeeded, but many climbers still lose toes and unfortunately their lives.... and don't make it to the summit.... I don't think we will ever know... y but either way, they at least survived and had a great adventure....
I applaud your belief that both parties were successful. Picking at those scabs is pointless, it brings out our biases. It's not making the world a better place, or bringing peace upon us to quibble over something like this.
I think about all those devout monotheists over the years engaging in the animist Puja ceremonies that happen before summit attempts. At their cores they have not recieved Buddhism, but do act as humble visitors honoring their hosts. And it's a fun and harmonious story that makes everyone feel good. Things that cost us nothing, hurt no one, and celebrate the human spirit should have total immunity from scrutiny.
If anyone's reputation or dollars are hurt however, weak cases like Mallory24 & CCP60 get dismissed from the docket with prejudice.
I think they filmed the summit after achieving the Second Step, then they called it a day.
I don't think Mallory and Irvine even surmounted the Second Step before they fell. They likely tried, though.
All contemporary evidence indicates M & I traversed the face below the steps, just like every other British expedition from the 20s and 30s.
I dont believe without any video/photo evidence
A satisfaction to having read Simonson's book, to now recall the disbelief & 'isms expressed it's a fond memory, their mistakes cost them but their will to persist far outside very tough people with more experienced do a footjam no boots in desrt heat my flash.
Best tho'ts to all 🍺
Always good seeing your comments and insights!
I'm going to be the first to make the summit thanks to the glorious leader Kim Jong Un. Because he's a living god, he's going to carry me on his back while wearing board shorts 🩳. 😂😂
Great story. 2 years of experience only? I have heard of beginner's luck but this is ridiculous. They definitely appear to have gotten close though so who knows?
Did they make it, maybe, as for what happened to their flag and bust of Mao, it would not be impossible to believe that after getting to the top they were so exhausted that they forgot to emplace them and just chucked of the side on the way down and picked up some rocks to take home from further down the mountain.
It strikes me that many of these comments are predicated by the writers attitude to past and present Chinese Governments.
The only relevance that has for me is that perhaps the climbers couldn't contemplate failure. They had to do this and given the horrendous injuries and the filming at the third step (I assume that this can be proven to be early in the morning?) and the description of the false summit the story seems to me to hold together.
Wouldn't be too dogmatic about it though!
He took off his crampons, okay, sure. And his boots?! Yeah, no. I smell dramatization. When getting stepped on, the difference between getting injured or not is not a pair of boots.
I'm unclear about what is special about using the north route. Is this more challenging or something?
Nothing intrinsically special about the North side. The debate is about the first Northern ascent though, which always provokes extra attention/emotion.
@rondog540 Got it, thanks. Who gets the record, etc.
Hj Tom! Did you say the Chinese STARTED higher than anyone else?
Yes, they had. camp situated just under the ridge itself, hours of work above the British Camp VI.
There's only one explanation for why the Chinese have never allowed any independent body to verify that the 'summit' rocks actually came from the summit. We don't even need a discussion on the colour of the rocks not matching the hue of known summit rocks and instead matching the hue of thrombolite layer rocks. Let the rocks speak for themselves.
By their own admission, they lost their pressure cooker at high camp and then miraculously climbed for 30 hours above 8500m meters, in the dark with no lights and not even moonlight. Thats an inhuman feat that maybe 1 in a million could achieve but we are to believe that 3 such men were on the mountain that day and all three returned.
I'm sorry, but the 1960 summit simply has to be marked as a failure until proven otherwise.
Great insight. Did Mallory and Irvine even have a 1 in a million chance if the Chinese were against the wall?
@EverestMystery Who's to say? That answer most likely lies with the remains of the rest of Irvine's body.
With Mallory and Irvine dying on the mountain, the odds are in their favour that they made the summit. Statistically, an overwhelming majority of people who die on Everest did not make a call to turn around and instead pushed for the summit.
But a million things could have happened between Odell's last sighting and their deaths.
@@podgemcgrath Great stuff. The only thing I can't get behind is that the odds were in their favor that they made it. I'd love to be proven wrong but the odds were against them. Mallory turned around to save their lives, but it was too late. But, I do love the other thoughts on it. Thanks for watching and for sharing your thoughts
It sounds more like a comedy script than a real story.
They summited below the second step. Mao knows !
I wonder what they did with Irvine’s body.
That story about the man climbing the second step is so unbelievably fantastic that it is almost comical. That said, based on how much manpower and money and resources the CCP used to lay siege to the mountain including that amazing road, I believe they bivouacked under the second step and realized they had to say they summited, because failure was not an option for them. So they said Okay we'll just say we reached it in the middle of the night. "well what do we do with chairman Mao?"...........
:chucks it down toward the Ronbuk in silence,:
I strongly believe that Mallory and Irvine did but the Chinese were never the first.They are all season propaganda masters
It's possible....
.....yes it's very clear now, the 3 Chinese amateur climbers made it to the 3rd Step in the dark of night with no head-lighting or torches, and thus thought that they had made the Everest Summit !!!.....it is very important to remember that it was not a moon-lit evening/early morning environment for them to behold, likewise not one of these men had ever been within and, or experienced this physical altitude and challenging environment previously, even during daylight hours ???.....hence, the logic here is that we are supposed to believe that they achieved this feat in the pitch-black, dark of night (early morning) without any fatality beyond the 3rd Step location !!!.....Ladies & Gentlemen of the Jury is this really what we are trying so hard to believe truly materialized here ???.....
They probably, hope not found the missing KODAK camera Mallory and Irvine brought with then
The Chinese should have put chairman Mao on the summit. And leave him there. That would've been the right place for this comrade.
Great video as always. As of 'Burgeon' After my recent hike in white mountains, i actually stopped by their store in Lincoln. Great apparel indeed. But in my opinion little bit over priced. But once again it's whatever floats your boat. Great product, but bit pricey.
Super interesting take on their gear. My first impression on Burgeon was that they were so affordably priced that I almost used that as a talking point for the video. I do appreciate your thoughts! Thanks so much for watching, it's always good to see you here!
I still want to believe that Mallory and Irvine were first.
Many would agree with you!
Thom, I know you cant go over everything in a video but you brought up Bonnington as credibility for the Chinese ascent, Chris was negotiating for future 6 and 7000 meter unclimbed peak expeditions inside Chinese borders with the Chinese government then, let's be honest, there's no way he's going to refute the climb -He needed their permissions. And while that doesnt prove they didnt make it, I think we should throw out Bonnington's 80s analysis as professional pragmatism.
Super interesting, thank you. Perhaps I'll do a livestream next week and talk about this. Much appreciated. I still put Chris Bonington high on the list of credible individuals with high level of integrity. I'll do some more intel on this.
Good job Thom. I'm just waiting for all the "expert" naysayers to chime in.
There's no f'n way I would do that for anybody. And carrying a bust of Mao, to boot. Shame on Mao for that. I'm guessing these three are of superhero strength? I read the comments below and honestly, the whole thing sounds implausible. But in the end, makes for a very interesting video!
Malory fell going for it with an inexperienced climber, Man had summit fever. Three men on shoulders climbing an hvs at altitude. No it didn't happen.
Malory had some big cohonies on him to go for that second step. I think Irvine took the full tour of the north face that night and in a way I am glad he didn't get left alone on the mountain and freeze to death.. They should make a film now and the end is them both coming off the the second step. Malory was not leaving with out a good go at it. The Chinese had more sense and just sacked it and came down. Dudley Wolf should be made into a film too.
I’m only 5 mins into the video so far…but…
The question on my mind is, why does the presenter not told us whether he wants to travel to China and get a future visa for visiting China. If he does, there may be a certain pressure he feels.
On the other hand, it is so typical for people to be sceptical of claims of remarkable achievements or new discoveries.
The thing is humans do sometimes make great achievements.
But on the 3rd hand… M & I probably made it thought we can’t know for sure.
BTW, who’s got the M & I camera?
It was a remarkable acheivement - amateurs with poor equipment making it past the second step which better climbers (Wager, Shipton, etc) had seen to be impossible.
People make fun of the Chairman Mao stuff, and fair enough, but it does show that nationalistic fervour is still a powerful motivator. Just not quite powerful enough to make a 30+ hour round trip to the summit from the N Ridge without water amd oxygen (and almost no frostbite from the summit trio). A great acheievement, but there was clearly no summit.
Good insights! Thanks so much for watching!
Barefoot above 8000 metres? i dont believe this.
Didn't these amateurs, who I assume had never been close to the height of even base camp, stay in the "death zone."
These men were not climbing for individual glory or achievement, it was "china" climbing the mountain, it was "Mao" climbing the mountain. They simply couldn't fail, they probably would have been executed. Their story is so far fetched, and their lack of evidence and unwillingness to allow examination of the "summit rocks" ( which look like they are from a lighter band further down) says it all really. They didn't make it. Chris boningtons comments are not to be taken seriously, as he knew only too well that the chinese could deny him access to the mountain if he didnt play along. And their knowledge of details of the terrain, only came to light in a much later interview, AFTER the 1975 expedition, where the chinese definitely DID make it so they could have been told this by their fellow countrymen.