Love these book, read this trilogy when it first came out, along with the ‘Moonshae’ books. These are definitely my favorite of the Drizzt stories, followed by the prequels. I kept up with the other books in the series but fell off and am many books behind, probably 10-15 years worth Great channel by the way
Great analysis A.P.! I haven’t read Salvatore since my teens or early 20s, I think. The Forgotten Realms was one of my first forays into a fantasy setting, and Salvatore was (and is, I suppose) one of the prime authors writing in that universe. In terms of gaming it was the Eye of the Beholder series and that Baldur’s Gate (and Icewind Dale, to a lesser extent) that kept me engaged in that particular setting. 😊 What struck me about your analysis was, that even though it has been at least 15 years since I read that prologue, I still remember most details about it, including the ‘mushroom throne’. 😄 So, I think that even though there might be a certain simplicity to the narrative (not meant in a derogatory sense; as you said it was directed at a younger audience), I think it speaks to its effectiveness, that I still remember so much of it even after quite a few years.😊
The info dump is shared with us in prose, but as a fan of film, my mind interprets the text as a mini-film clip within a film in my mind. I immediately see the expositional text unfolding as a flashback scene. I compare this to Lady Galadriel speaking to us in voice over at the start of the film The Fellowship of the Ring, which then transitions into a dramatized flashback illustrating what she just orally introduced. Salvatore has explained in interviews that this is his intent as a writer. He writes in a similar manner to the way that he understands films to unfold before viewers' eyes and minds. However, as we are dealing with novels and not screenplays, his prose lacks the telltale jargon of film speak.
Also, there are well established techniques in writing that do this, Salvatore just didn't avail of them. So his intent is clear, but the execution (which would be a craft issue) doesn't quite accomplish what he intended. You can use scene breaks, internal monologue, explicitly cues to this being a memory, the use of italics to indicate a shift from the contemporary setting into a memory, and those are just things that could have been done with what is on the page. If re-writing was an option there are even more ways this could have been accomplished. A lot of readers don't care or actively enjoy info-dumping in this way, but there rea more elegant ways of doing it that would result in those readers still enjoying it, and other readers who are bothered by this would not be put off.
I always love how neatly and eloquently you tie your analysis together. I aspire to some day get my Kharkanas videos up to this standard. Thank you for encouraging us all to think more deeply about passages we might otherwise just breeze through without a second thought.
Oh my gosh I love this so much. It's been so long since I revisited the Drizzt books and freaking Errtu. Loved the analysis of what Salvatore is trying to do with his writing here. I never even questioned the term 'lich' because I was already a dnd player before reading this
I would suspect that the vast majority of people reading the books would be d&d players, so it strikes me as over-expository. I suppose. Does that make it a suppository? Kinda like it's jammed in where it's not wanted in a way...
Going back to the books now can be equal parts nostalgia and equal parts realising how much you have changed in terms of tastes and preferences as a reader. It is an interesting experience.
@Paul the novels were used, in part, to broaden the appeal of fantasy gaming, so these were actually used to attract readers to become gamers. But the technique is certainly a slightly blunt way to introduce explanation. Weirdly enough, it actually fits the current desire that many have to wanting things explained and placed up-front in the story, especially if you factor in a desire for hard magic with its rules explained, the desire for worldbuilding to be explored rather than character or plot.
@@ACriticalDragon I only read the Weis and Hickman books, the first two trilogies, which I did really enjoy. I am loathe to go back and revisit and perhaps come face to face with my younger self. 😬
Great video, AP! Drizzt and co. got me into fantasy waaaay back in middle school (first fantasy I read after Lord of the Rings). I reread a good chunk of them last year in between Malazan reads and still really enjoyed them. Cheers AP!
This is one of my work friends favorite book series. He kept telling me that I should read Homeland. But it ended up being one of those things where I felt bad that I wasn't into it. It felt weird that Drizzt knew that his people were the bad guys having never meet anyone from the outside or ever hearing someone say it.
A lot of the earlier books were written with the game in mind, so they tend to match the moral objectivist nature of Faerun rather than a moral relativist position that we assume feels more natural and 'believable'.
@@ACriticalDragon you can definitely feel that the book seemed to be written for the people who played the game. Whenever a certain type of people or creature was mentioned it definitely felt like you should know all about it already. I will say there's nothing wrong with writing to your audience especially if it's a large one. So I completely understand that aspect of the writing.
Thank you for the video, finally R.A Salvatore definitely one of the best out there! Would be great to hear you and your nemesis Dr. Fantasy discussing this one.
That lich sentence was painful to read. But it does show an issue that these game based books had. How much needs to be explained and how much player knowledge, pk, is assumed? This also pops up in the various 40k books where the exposition can get really repetitive as some things are explained as if this were your first book with no background information on the game/setting.
It pops up in lots of narratives not just game related narratives, and caters to that desire to know the information upfront without having to wait for it.
Nice one! Great to see you looking as something as despised by smartasses as Crystal Shard. I wonder how much of the "infodump" is due to it being a Forgotten Realms and D&D tie-in product and thus having to mention as much setting lore and references to the game as possible. After all, the stuff about the liches being the souls of dead wizards who did not want to die is very much not important for the relic's significance in the book or anything else but just shows that Salvatore read the monster manual.
As this was the second Forgotten Realms book, I am fairly sure that Salvatore was encouraged to include 'lore' as often as possible to garner interest in the gameworld.
@@ACriticalDragon I own several of the Forgotten Realms boxsets from that time in the german edition, including the Icewind Dale one. I picked them up at a 2nd hand shop for 5€ each. I'll have a look at the Icewind one, see if there's direct crossreferencing between novel and gaming book, that's something I can do to procrastinate further.
Ah the old debate, lick or litch... fantasy words and the curse of them never coming up in conversation so your internal pronunciation shows that you only ever read them.
I see you got my text while you were recording! Hee hee! Anything to disrupt the nefarious plans of the Nemesis! 😁
Saboteur 😂
Love these book, read this trilogy when it first came out, along with the ‘Moonshae’ books.
These are definitely my favorite of the Drizzt stories, followed by the prequels. I kept up with the other books in the series but fell off and am many books behind, probably 10-15 years worth
Great channel by the way
Great analysis A.P.!
I haven’t read Salvatore since my teens or early 20s, I think.
The Forgotten Realms was one of my first forays into a fantasy setting, and Salvatore was (and is, I suppose) one of the prime authors writing in that universe.
In terms of gaming it was the Eye of the Beholder series and that Baldur’s Gate (and Icewind Dale, to a lesser extent) that kept me engaged in that particular setting. 😊
What struck me about your analysis was, that even though it has been at least 15 years since I read that prologue, I still remember most details about it, including the ‘mushroom throne’. 😄
So, I think that even though there might be a certain simplicity to the narrative (not meant in a derogatory sense; as you said it was directed at a younger audience), I think it speaks to its effectiveness, that I still remember so much of it even after quite a few years.😊
Oh, I haven't thought about Eye of the Beholder in a long time. That takes me back.
The info dump is shared with us in prose, but as a fan of film, my mind interprets the text as a mini-film clip within a film in my mind. I immediately see the expositional text unfolding as a flashback scene.
I compare this to Lady Galadriel speaking to us in voice over at the start of the film The Fellowship of the Ring, which then transitions into a dramatized flashback illustrating what she just orally introduced.
Salvatore has explained in interviews that this is his intent as a writer. He writes in a similar manner to the way that he understands films to unfold before viewers' eyes and minds.
However, as we are dealing with novels and not screenplays, his prose lacks the telltale jargon of film speak.
Also, there are well established techniques in writing that do this, Salvatore just didn't avail of them.
So his intent is clear, but the execution (which would be a craft issue) doesn't quite accomplish what he intended.
You can use scene breaks, internal monologue, explicitly cues to this being a memory, the use of italics to indicate a shift from the contemporary setting into a memory, and those are just things that could have been done with what is on the page. If re-writing was an option there are even more ways this could have been accomplished.
A lot of readers don't care or actively enjoy info-dumping in this way, but there rea more elegant ways of doing it that would result in those readers still enjoying it, and other readers who are bothered by this would not be put off.
I always love how neatly and eloquently you tie your analysis together. I aspire to some day get my Kharkanas videos up to this standard. Thank you for encouraging us all to think more deeply about passages we might otherwise just breeze through without a second thought.
Oh my gosh I love this so much. It's been so long since I revisited the Drizzt books and freaking Errtu. Loved the analysis of what Salvatore is trying to do with his writing here. I never even questioned the term 'lich' because I was already a dnd player before reading this
I would suspect that the vast majority of people reading the books would be d&d players, so it strikes me as over-expository. I suppose. Does that make it a suppository? Kinda like it's jammed in where it's not wanted in a way...
Going back to the books now can be equal parts nostalgia and equal parts realising how much you have changed in terms of tastes and preferences as a reader. It is an interesting experience.
@Paul the novels were used, in part, to broaden the appeal of fantasy gaming, so these were actually used to attract readers to become gamers. But the technique is certainly a slightly blunt way to introduce explanation.
Weirdly enough, it actually fits the current desire that many have to wanting things explained and placed up-front in the story, especially if you factor in a desire for hard magic with its rules explained, the desire for worldbuilding to be explored rather than character or plot.
@@ACriticalDragon Hah, that's how I felt reading your PhD thesis. 😁
@@ACriticalDragon I only read the Weis and Hickman books, the first two trilogies, which I did really enjoy. I am loathe to go back and revisit and perhaps come face to face with my younger self. 😬
Great video, AP! Drizzt and co. got me into fantasy waaaay back in middle school (first fantasy I read after Lord of the Rings). I reread a good chunk of them last year in between Malazan reads and still really enjoyed them. Cheers AP!
I read a lot of Forgotten Realms books back in the day. They were a staple in my fantasy diet back then.
Oh, take me back to 1990 when I first read this book haha I look forward to watching this later!
It was a simpler time.
This is one of my work friends favorite book series. He kept telling me that I should read Homeland. But it ended up being one of those things where I felt bad that I wasn't into it. It felt weird that Drizzt knew that his people were the bad guys having never meet anyone from the outside or ever hearing someone say it.
A lot of the earlier books were written with the game in mind, so they tend to match the moral objectivist nature of Faerun rather than a moral relativist position that we assume feels more natural and 'believable'.
@@ACriticalDragon you can definitely feel that the book seemed to be written for the people who played the game. Whenever a certain type of people or creature was mentioned it definitely felt like you should know all about it already. I will say there's nothing wrong with writing to your audience especially if it's a large one. So I completely understand that aspect of the writing.
Thank you for the video, finally R.A Salvatore definitely one of the best out there! Would be great to hear you and your nemesis Dr. Fantasy discussing this one.
All the Forgotten Realms authors were important in my early fantasy reading. Salvatore was certainly prolific.
That lich sentence was painful to read. But it does show an issue that these game based books had. How much needs to be explained and how much player knowledge, pk, is assumed? This also pops up in the various 40k books where the exposition can get really repetitive as some things are explained as if this were your first book with no background information on the game/setting.
It pops up in lots of narratives not just game related narratives, and caters to that desire to know the information upfront without having to wait for it.
Nice one! Great to see you looking as something as despised by smartasses as Crystal Shard. I wonder how much of the "infodump" is due to it being a Forgotten Realms and D&D tie-in product and thus having to mention as much setting lore and references to the game as possible. After all, the stuff about the liches being the souls of dead wizards who did not want to die is very much not important for the relic's significance in the book or anything else but just shows that Salvatore read the monster manual.
As this was the second Forgotten Realms book, I am fairly sure that Salvatore was encouraged to include 'lore' as often as possible to garner interest in the gameworld.
@@ACriticalDragon I own several of the Forgotten Realms boxsets from that time in the german edition, including the Icewind Dale one. I picked them up at a 2nd hand shop for 5€ each. I'll have a look at the Icewind one, see if there's direct crossreferencing between novel and gaming book, that's something I can do to procrastinate further.
Lich sounds like which 😂 lol.
Ah the old debate, lick or litch... fantasy words and the curse of them never coming up in conversation so your internal pronunciation shows that you only ever read them.
@@ACriticalDragon Lick. Ewww.