Additional fantastic point raised by a friend of the channel, @byzantinepainting : Notice how the portrait bears a halo. In Byzantine artistic traditions, halos are applied to Emperors, if the painted subject is secular (ie not a saint or important religious figure). You will notice halos around Emperors in all the best examples of Byzantine art, be it Hagia Sophia mosaics or Madrid Skylitzes miniatures. So... who had been an Emperor among the 6 Palaiologos boys? Only Ioannes VIII and Constantine XI. And as we said, the painted person doesn't resemble Ioannes at all. So that leaves us pretty much with just Constantine as a viable candidate! Unless Demetrios or Thomas had such massive insatiable egos that they thought themselves worthy to be painted with a halo.
Indeed, although I like the idea that the man of the painting is Constantine Palaiologos, there are not enough evidence to show if the guy is Constantine or another byzie emperor.
Dear @byzansimp i follow your channel and i am a Byzantine nerd too some decades now - Congratulations in general for the knowledge , the effort and the final outcome of your videos. As for this particular one... I was really happy when i first read about the news but i m afraid my enthusiasm is not still here. You have covered in detail the identification possibilities of this depiction, IF it is really a portrait of a contemporary person. And you have done it in the best possible way... BUT .. I personally do NOT believe that this is actually a contemporary portrait. As you probably already know, iconography in orthodox and particularly byzantine churches is obeying very strict rules. The way every saint or every scene is painted has a spiritual meaning, same goes for the PLACE were every saint or scene is placed. Christ Pantocrator at the dome, Mary Platytera at the apse, the evangelists at 4 corners, saint bishops behind the altar, military saints at the lower zones to guard etc etc etc. Contemporary persons are limited towards the entrance/exit, at the narthex, almost exclusively as donors. There they either hold the church/monastery offering it to Christ, they keep their hand in deisis position, or even they kneel. Usually an inscription explains the offer. This fresco was published in 2021 (!) and for some reason the hellenic ministry chose to present it widely in public now. In the scientific article it is written that the supposed "Constantine Palaiologos" lies in a middle zone of the main wall of Katholikon (main church) between zones depicting scenes from Christ's life. Beside him there are figures of the "Propatores" the forefathers of Christ, saints and prophets. What is the current King doing among them? That would be a major Hybris ! As far as i know, this was a place that NEVER a contemporary person was painted in any byzantine church, anywhere. I believe that this man is a saint. Probably saint Constantine the Great. Saint Constantine , the first byzantine emperor is painted like this- a thin man with dark beard (often splitting in 2) and quiet long wavy hair ,in full imperial garment and regalia. There are a couple of portable icons with him even wearing the double head eagle pattern - It is wrongly named as insignia by the author- the double head eagle was indeed a palaiologan symbol, but it was a "royal pattern" generally and ofc who would deny the right to saint Constantine to wear it ? he was the first christian emperor and founder of Constantinople. The author goes even further in her original article, stating that Tomas and Demetrios are also depicted in the same height but different wall. She identifies so two figures that look much older than "constantine", with long probably white beards . But we know that the two brothers were younger. These 2 are probably too, some prophets and "forefathers" like Melhisedek or king David .
@ dear friend, thank you for taking the time to elaborate your well reasoned arguments. You seem to have either personally visited the monastery, or to have read extensively on studies on it, since you know so much about how the wall paintings inside are composed. I was not aware of all those details which you now enumerate, perhaps if you send me those sources, like pictures of the rest of the artistic composition in the building, I may reformulate my opinion.
The only doubt I'd have is the patch of beard between the chin and bottom lip, which is present on the small contemporary portrait and missing on the new one... but the resemblance is spot-on otherwise. What a delightful and historically significant find!
See? Also my only concern. Now, I'm not a dude, so I don't know anything about beards, but I do wonder if you could deliberately shave that patch off or does it depend on each individual's face and can't be changed?
There are so many murals and frescoes and mossics of your Imperators and of my king of kings which is lost that it is kinda hard to find and then identify it who was depicted on, however i do think it's Constantine XI because of hair form and ofc if it is depicted before coronation in Constantinopolis it will make even more sence that it is Constantine rather than his brothers, i also interested about Alexios I komnenos "potential mosaic" that we don't lnow where it is from, do we have any new info about it? Also do you think Andronikashvili's can be coronated as imperial dynasty of Eastern Roman Empire since they are decendents of Andronikos Komnenos?
The timing you mentioned is a slight problem. Constantine was crowned in the Morea in 1449, while there is no precise date to when Demetrios or Thomas renovated the monastery with Hosios Leontios, we only know it;s around 1450 which isn't gonna help us narrow it down much. Which mosaic of Alexios are you talking about? I have never heard of it before.
@byzansimp fair point i agree with you, the mosaic of Alexios I tho is all on internet you can search it without any problem but problem is if its real or not.
He is Constantine Palaiologos IX because i have the only portrait of him with Georgios Francis, Constantine Palaiologos IX has brown skin black hair brown eyes he look like his mother not his father, Constantine Palaiologos IX descendant from Cumans and West Asian Native Anatolians he is not ethnic Greek neither Slav
Can you after you end byzantine series make a video of greco-turkish war of 1919-1922 i really want too know why do you think greeks lost? i couldn't stop thinking about it for a year now every day:
As for why the Greeks lost, there are a lot of factors; one video would simply not be able to enumerate them all. If you are intrigued however, I will say I believe disunity is a major reason for the failure: disharmony within the Greek state (royalists vs Venezelists), shifty Allies looking to profit from the most likely winner, and the surprisingly quick unity Kemal offered to the failing parts of the Ottoman state in Anatolia. But damn man, talking about that war? You are literally proposing for me to make ragebait that will piss off both Greek and Turkish nationalists lolll no thx I don't want them on my page
@@byzansimpi know that turks never got too thrace directly then why greeks Abounded it at least that would been not a full defeat if at least they held it out in thrace and why Britain gave up CONSTANOPLE with out a fight didnt they want the Dardanelles?
My ancestors were from Asia Minor Cappadocia, Mersin, Izmir and the most rich from all, i don't consider myself Greek, i have Mongoloid features Türkic Cuman and Mediterranean Anatolian Neolithic Farmers West Asian, Byzantines were Romans and descendant from Anatolian Neolithic Farmers J2 West Asians brown skin black hair brown eyes not descendant from Ancient Greeks, mainland Greeks look different from us
At least it’s better then the pfp he’s been using for the past 6 centuries, made by a scribe that’s shitty at drawing and another who is okay at coloring
Additional fantastic point raised by a friend of the channel, @byzantinepainting :
Notice how the portrait bears a halo. In Byzantine artistic traditions, halos are applied to Emperors, if the painted subject is secular (ie not a saint or important religious figure). You will notice halos around Emperors in all the best examples of Byzantine art, be it Hagia Sophia mosaics or Madrid Skylitzes miniatures. So... who had been an Emperor among the 6 Palaiologos boys? Only Ioannes VIII and Constantine XI. And as we said, the painted person doesn't resemble Ioannes at all. So that leaves us pretty much with just Constantine as a viable candidate! Unless Demetrios or Thomas had such massive insatiable egos that they thought themselves worthy to be painted with a halo.
Indeed, although I like the idea that the man of the painting is Constantine Palaiologos, there are not enough evidence to show if the guy is Constantine or another byzie emperor.
Dear @byzansimp i follow your channel and i am a Byzantine nerd too some decades now - Congratulations in general for the knowledge , the effort and the final outcome of your videos.
As for this particular one... I was really happy when i first read about the news but i m afraid my enthusiasm is not still here. You have covered in detail the identification possibilities of this depiction, IF it is really a portrait of a contemporary person. And you have done it in the best possible way... BUT ..
I personally do NOT believe that this is actually a contemporary portrait. As you probably already know, iconography in orthodox and particularly byzantine churches is obeying very strict rules. The way every saint or every scene is painted has a spiritual meaning, same goes for the PLACE were every saint or scene is placed. Christ Pantocrator at the dome, Mary Platytera at the apse, the evangelists at 4 corners, saint bishops behind the altar, military saints at the lower zones to guard etc etc etc. Contemporary persons are limited towards the entrance/exit, at the narthex, almost exclusively as donors. There they either hold the church/monastery offering it to Christ, they keep their hand in deisis position, or even they kneel. Usually an inscription explains the offer.
This fresco was published in 2021 (!) and for some reason the hellenic ministry chose to present it widely in public now. In the scientific article it is written that the supposed "Constantine Palaiologos" lies in a middle zone of the main wall of Katholikon (main church) between zones depicting scenes from Christ's life. Beside him there are figures of the "Propatores" the forefathers of Christ, saints and prophets. What is the current King doing among them? That would be a major Hybris !
As far as i know, this was a place that NEVER a contemporary person was painted in any byzantine church, anywhere.
I believe that this man is a saint. Probably saint Constantine the Great. Saint Constantine , the first byzantine emperor is painted like this- a thin man with dark beard (often splitting in 2) and quiet long wavy hair ,in full imperial garment and regalia. There are a couple of portable icons with him even wearing the double head eagle pattern - It is wrongly named as insignia by the author- the double head eagle was indeed a palaiologan symbol, but it was a "royal pattern" generally and ofc who would deny the right to saint Constantine to wear it ? he was the first christian emperor and founder of Constantinople.
The author goes even further in her original article, stating that Tomas and Demetrios are also depicted in the same height but different wall. She identifies so two figures that look much older than "constantine", with long probably white beards . But we know that the two brothers were younger. These 2 are probably too, some prophets and "forefathers" like Melhisedek or king David .
@ dear friend, thank you for taking the time to elaborate your well reasoned arguments. You seem to have either personally visited the monastery, or to have read extensively on studies on it, since you know so much about how the wall paintings inside are composed. I was not aware of all those details which you now enumerate, perhaps if you send me those sources, like pictures of the rest of the artistic composition in the building, I may reformulate my opinion.
The only doubt I'd have is the patch of beard between the chin and bottom lip, which is present on the small contemporary portrait and missing on the new one... but the resemblance is spot-on otherwise. What a delightful and historically significant find!
See? Also my only concern. Now, I'm not a dude, so I don't know anything about beards, but I do wonder if you could deliberately shave that patch off or does it depend on each individual's face and can't be changed?
Merry Christmas and a happy new year!
Wishing you and your family a merry Christmas and prosperous new year as well!
@byzansimp Thank you very much.
May God bless you and everyone around you.
Much love from Greece ❤️☦️🇬🇷
Ava Basileus knells on 1 leg ava imperator and salutes ✋
Hey filos,
It’s not ava it’s Χαίρε
@@Eurystheasthank you
Immediately thought of your channel when I saw this lol
We get this and Farya's Varangian Symphony in the same year??? What is going on?!
THE HOUR IS COME!
We've been good boys and girls this year so Agios Nikolaos of Myra (Santa) decided to reward us
@@byzansimp Saint Basileios of Caesaria will usher the new year and a new age.
(RENOVATIO IMPERII INTENSIFIES)
@@ΕρνέστοςΣμίθ yassss it's almost New Year aka Vasilopita time as well! Perfect timing.
Will you make a new drawing for Constantine XI.
My first thought after the announcement of the find... but nah it's too late for that now my video on him is already too deep in production :(
There are so many murals and frescoes and mossics of your Imperators and of my king of kings which is lost that it is kinda hard to find and then identify it who was depicted on, however i do think it's Constantine XI because of hair form and ofc if it is depicted before coronation in Constantinopolis it will make even more sence that it is Constantine rather than his brothers, i also interested about Alexios I komnenos "potential mosaic" that we don't lnow where it is from, do we have any new info about it? Also do you think Andronikashvili's can be coronated as imperial dynasty of Eastern Roman Empire since they are decendents of Andronikos Komnenos?
The timing you mentioned is a slight problem. Constantine was crowned in the Morea in 1449, while there is no precise date to when Demetrios or Thomas renovated the monastery with Hosios Leontios, we only know it;s around 1450 which isn't gonna help us narrow it down much.
Which mosaic of Alexios are you talking about? I have never heard of it before.
@byzansimp fair point i agree with you, the mosaic of Alexios I tho is all on internet you can search it without any problem but problem is if its real or not.
He is Constantine Palaiologos IX because i have the only portrait of him with Georgios Francis, Constantine Palaiologos IX has brown skin black hair brown eyes he look like his mother not his father, Constantine Palaiologos IX descendant from Cumans and West Asian Native Anatolians he is not ethnic Greek neither Slav
Can you after you end byzantine series make a video of greco-turkish war of 1919-1922 i really want too know why do you think greeks lost? i couldn't stop thinking about it for a year now every day:
As for why the Greeks lost, there are a lot of factors; one video would simply not be able to enumerate them all. If you are intrigued however, I will say I believe disunity is a major reason for the failure: disharmony within the Greek state (royalists vs Venezelists), shifty Allies looking to profit from the most likely winner, and the surprisingly quick unity Kemal offered to the failing parts of the Ottoman state in Anatolia.
But damn man, talking about that war? You are literally proposing for me to make ragebait that will piss off both Greek and Turkish nationalists lolll no thx I don't want them on my page
@@byzansimpi know that turks never got too thrace directly then why greeks Abounded it at least that would been not a full defeat if at least they held it out in thrace and why Britain gave up CONSTANOPLE with out a fight didnt they want the Dardanelles?
@@byzansimp sorry i am from Aremnia by the way and that defeat was our defeat too as Treaty of Sèvres not implemented sorry again
@@byzansimp so no greek history series after byzantine series ends? Maybe greek war of Independence?
@@sword_of_sanghelios no need to be sorry, friend from Armenia
It is Konstantinos.
collab when
@TrajGreekFire she can't understand my videos unfortunately.
It's him
It must be him
Nothing can be 100% certain especially with these kinds of things. We can just hope our evidence holds.
My ancestors were from Asia Minor Cappadocia, Mersin, Izmir and the most rich from all, i don't consider myself Greek, i have Mongoloid features Türkic Cuman and Mediterranean Anatolian Neolithic Farmers West Asian, Byzantines were Romans and descendant from Anatolian Neolithic Farmers J2 West Asians brown skin black hair brown eyes not descendant from Ancient Greeks, mainland Greeks look different from us
At least it’s better then the pfp he’s been using for the past 6 centuries, made by a scribe that’s shitty at drawing and another who is okay at coloring
I've always preffered the statue of him than that drawn one
I do like the mutinenses graecus portrait tho, it's not THAT bad :(
What race you are?
Unscripted yay
I hope I didn't sound too unhinged
@@byzansimpNah its ok