Due to room constraints I had to place my surrounds at 110°... But I totally get what you are saying about high back chairs so I put them up at 5 ft and angled them down. This allows me to see the speaker from the main listening position even when reclined. 5 ft high is a little higher than I originally was planning for but in the balance of sacrifices I decided getting better performance out of that speaker was way more important than sticking to the angle of separation to the atmos.
Excellent advice as usual. I just want to add clarification for the very very new people to home theater. When he says the speaker should be visible, that means line of sight. Turn your head, look for the speaker. Does not mean visible in your periphery while looking straight ahead.
@@bluebuddha74 that’s fine. It’s recommended that you don’t go higher than 2 feet above your head when seated if you can avoid it. But try to stay at least a foot below the ceiling if you have to go higher.
Thanks! I've talked about that few times in the comments for this video. Read through them and you'll see them. Maybe i should do a video on that as well.
@@joelgonzalez8289 I have my tweeter height just above ear level, but pulled forward a couple of feet - everyone (2 seats only) has line of sight to their ears.
Hey Joe, I think you know the answer to that..ha. You ideally want all drivers to have no blockage but having at least the tweeters unblocked is of course better. With a two way speaker your woofers may be crossed at 1500hz or over 2000hz or higher so the woofers can be handling quite a lot of content. Now as seen in the video, blocked by a head doesn't hurt nearly as low in frequency as a seat back so if it's just a seated head blocking it then it may not be enough of a big deal to worry about moving them.
Thanks Steven...I did know but was hoping it might not be that big of a deal. I need to compromise somewhere since I have highback seats in a 5.1.2 set up with a low 7.5' ceiling for atmos...create enough separation with surround tweeters showing at 110° from MLP or raise surrounds but closer up to atmos. 🤔
Thanks for that. In the new Theater here in our new house. I designed the atmos layout according to what you recommended from the Studio spec and from Anthony Grimani's webinars. My sides may be a little too high (in a 3.28m wide room) but they're both visible from all seats of the couch, allowing for awkward room features like a tall window on the left wall and a window behind the seating position (so rears are on the edge of the window recess. sides are at 110 deg from front and heights are about 25 deg forward and back from seating position with a 55 deg separation between them and almost the same to the sides. Should be good - once i get it fired up and stop modifying the speakers !
Great info as usual. I will try this out in my own system, I currently have mine at about 90 degrees. I think it makes perfect sense to place them closer to 70-75 degrees.
@hometheatergurus I'll give it a try, thanks. I don't normally have people sitting beside me, my family doesn't care to watch movies. I'm curious if it does make a difference due to my high chair backs.
Hi @hometheatergurus 1.We are talking about side surrounds right? Plus the only place I have for SIDE surrounds is at height 3' - 4' from the MLP. My MLP is about 3.9' from the side surrounds as well. Would really appreciate your help.. Your videos are amazingly helpful and have passed it on to all my friends.. 🙏🙏 I have a couch about 3' from the back wall, where I have my rear RS+ rear LS placed in the corners, aimed at the MLP. 2. Also how high should my rear RS+ rear LS be from the MLP? I know you in one of your episodes mention 20°
@SpecofTech I have my "sides" at about 80 degrees and I am very happy with the sound field from them. Like you, I haven't anyone at home to enjoy the room with me anymore. Bummer ain't it?! Sure is a lonely hobby. I wish I had the means(funding and zero anxiety) to travel and spend time in and learning about the HTs of other enthusiasts. I guess the good Lord will take me as I sit on my couch alone. Current battle here is my 2nd/3rd hand 6 channel NAD CI 9060 amp that powers my ceiling and rear speakers has all but failed. Time to put it on the bench and repair it. Oh well. I hope you continue to have fun and find a great deal of rewards in changing out gear in your room and posting videos of your adventure. All the very best to you and yours, Kevin
Whats the deal with having the side surrounds forward of the listening position. Ive had one in front in with 5 channels and all it resulted was in front of you sound. Same as what i get in imax. Im building a home theater and im putting mine a bit behind up to 100 degrees. Even if theres a door in the way! Ill stick it on hinges to allow walking through!
I only have a 7’ ceiling and I’ve opted to not due Atmos. Recently sold my Volt8 surrounds. I am borrowing two surrounds from a friend. His are angled down towards the listening position. I mounted them pretty close to the ceiling. I really like the effect. Since I don’t have to worry about separation for Atmos, is this an acceptable way of dealing with keeping them away from things like heads and chair backs? I will be buying and building new surrounds in the spring. It’s cold here in MN. If this is an ok thing to do, then I will design my new surrounds like this. Thanks!
Should your surrounds be as close to the same height as your L/C/R, even if it means having to move your MLP back a few feet from the screen? I have a situation where a closet is right where I want to place the surrounds so unless I place them high and angled down toward the MLP, my only other option is to move the MLP back which might be a little too far from the screen
Thanks Great Video.. Moved my surrounds and sounding great. My only question with the speakers raised (up above the head by 30cm) In a narrow 13ft wide room do i need to angle my surrounds down to the listening level?? Thanks Guys
Maybe this was already answered in one your earlier videos and may have missed it. I have a 5.1.2 set up with my surrounds at 110 degrees. I have high back theater seats so i raised the surrounds but only up to where i can see only the tweeters. Is this high enough or am i missing out still due to the woofers. I have a 7.5' ceiling and didnt want to be too close to the Atmos.
Interesting video. My situation has the ceiling 1.3 feet lower on the right side than the left (8.4’ lower side). Would you locate the Atmos speakers further away in plan view on the higher ceiling side than the lower side.
Have a 5.1 speaker system. The 2 speakers that go in front ( not center ), my receiver has front speakers and front surround speakers. Which is the best connection for the best experience.
I angled my surrounds forward a bit, so I can see them but keep them slightly above ear-level because those are the heights of my speaker stands. Is that okay or should I be moving them back more and putting them up higher? You had another video on angles. I'm afraid surrounds and rears will be too close wit those angles. I'd have to move the rears closer together to get better separation.
Hi @hometheatergurus 1. Awesome videos on speaker placements! Talking about side surrounds, you say they should be between 70-80°. So if im sitting in the MLP is that 70-80° from the front or back assuming 90° is obviously directly on my side.? Plus the only place I have for SIDE surrounds is at height 3' - 4' from the MLP. My MLP is about 3.9' from the side surrounds as well. Would really appreciate your help.. Your videos are amazingly helpful and have passed it on to all my friends.. 🙏🙏 I have a couch about 3' from the back wall, where I have my rear RS+ rear LS placed in the corners, aimed at the MLP. 2. Also how high should my rear RS+ rear LS be from the MLP? I know you in one of your episodes mention 20°
Thanks for watching. The video didn't say 70. It said 85-80 (if required). If you need help laying out your room I do offer a room design/layout service. Just contact me using the email in the video description.
Thanks for the prompt reply.. I live in the subcontinent so access to services here are limited. Will email you surely. Thanks I just wanted to clarify if I could place the sides at height of 3' above my ear level as I don't have an I can't go lower. Also my rear R+L surrounds are only 3 diagonally from my MLP so I feel if I place the the side surrounds off 90° they will be too to close to rear R+L.. At 90° there only 3' approx between the sides and the rear surrounds. Can sides can be placed at a height of say 3'.6" above angled towards the MLP?
i think, horizontal 110 degrees( maintaining vertical angles according to your videos) with recliners at reclined position (speakers in line of sight) would be the best trade off for 5 bed layers setup. we can also feel phantom rears with that angle. having side surrounds in at 85-80 degrees would cancel off rear phantom effect and the atmospheric sounds in surrounds does not feel enclosed in a 5 bed layer setup. the objects placement will be little off, you can check that with object visualizer.
That is mentioned in the video but one thing i forgot is that at 110 you have an 80 degree gap to a main at 30 degrees in an area we are very sensitive to gaps. Even more if you have the mains at less than 30. That is not ideal at all but of course 5 channel bedlayer isn't ideal either but sometimes it's what makes sense for the room.
@@hometheatergurus ya ,there is a gap of 80 degrees . My mains are at 30 degrees. Speakers with a good soundstage for lcr would help to combat that gap (at least a bit). As you said it is always a compromise, unless i can build a 9 channel bed setup. I can sense the gap in very slow pans using the atmos visualiser,for fast pans (like in most movies) i couldn't feel the gap. Also very less movies make use of wides.
The wides aren't needed with the fwd surround position as we have closed that gap to 50-55 degrees. So it's not needed at least for the mlp but they do help the side seats as explained in the wide video. But like you said wides while Upmixed 100 percent aren't always present in a mix which makes closing that surround to main gap a pretty big deal, when possible.
@@hometheatergurus ya ,but that would create a huge gap behind mlp,if there are no rears. Also for 2 row theatres,110 would be a good compromise for both the rows. My second row has the surround speakers at 80 degrees,the issue with that is the side seats would hear more of surround speakers than lcr,even with proper level matching at mlp. with surrounds behind our ears,side seats would not hear those much. As you mentioned,our ears pick up front sounds easily.
So if we have a 5.1.4, and there is only 1 MLP with no high back seat or anything blocking my side surrounds, can I leave them at 90? Or should I still move them forward to 85-80 and aimed towards my single MLP?
If we're dealing with large side surround speakers in a narrow space, would you say it's important to see the entire speaker if somebody is seated next to you, or is it enough just to make sure the top tweeter is unobstructed? That distinction alone can alter the mounting height by a good 7" on some models.
The size of the speaker doesn't matter, the video is relevant but if the tweeter is never blocked you need to know what the tweeter is crossed at and understand what frequencies are being damaged by seated heads or seat backs.
nope, I should have discussed this but side seats are always a compromise and never let a compromised seat sink the whole ship. Also if the speaker is say at 80 degrees from the MLP, as we move closer to it we are more and more off axis, think about what happens with moving more off axis, we lose upper energy, so it's less annoying to the closer seat and as we move closer it's louder but as we move more off axis we lose upper end so it's actually helping. It's sorta like extreme toe in of mains where we manipulate the on and off axis. That close seat may be 30 degrees off axis or more which can be good.
I follow your channel, I enjoy the information that you provide. Do you have any advice- my theatre has an open side wall. 19by 30 by7 foot ceiling. Primarily acoustical panels. placement. Advice. Thx 🙏🏽
Thanks for watching. See the 4 part series on acoustics. The last one goes over placement and covers such rooms. Just google Home Theater Gurus acoustics
@@hometheatergurus I wonder if I move my seats back 2 feet would just be easier. How far should my seats be from my 65” OLED tv? Right now I am 8feet from headrest to screen.
Well i like to have 40 degrees minimum for a Home Theater so that's around 6.5' away. For living rooms though most aren't after theater like immersion.
He did not follow the dolby spec. 110 deg for sides is when you don't have back speakers (5.x.x) if you have back speakers, you need to put the sides at 90 deg. (7.x.x) (but this only works if you have a single chair, as you said). At least this is what i remember from dolby home pdf. EDIT: yes, everyone forgets the height of the sides and backs. Tthey forget that you can put them heigher and angle them down. Again as you said, depends on how wide the room is, because they can mix with the height speakers.
What about the case where we have 4 ceiling speakers? If we move surround forward to the point where we can see them, they get much closer to the front top which means they will get more mixed with front top. Is it still desirable to have surround at viewing angle even if it gets them closer to front top speakers?
Did you use ep 49 to layout atmos? Any speaker or sound moving along your bedlayer should not smear to your atmos. This only happens if you have a bedlayer speaker too high in angle or atmos too low in angle.
My biggest problem in my new room build has been calculating distances without being 100% sure of the mlp. MLP may need to change due to tweaking of FL, FR speakers once they are in position… so how to drill tor wire locations when speakers could be changed by several inches once everything is in place? 🤔😢
How does this advice play in to a 9 channel bed layer? It seems like putting side surrounds at less than 90 would really compress the front sound stage and leave a huge gap for the rears to cover.
It doesn't change the surround placement. As we don't hear that well from 90 and back you won't have any panning issues behind you. We are however very very perceptive to sound in the front half. Also while the better processors can use DSU to upmix wides, when watching content in Atmos etc the wides are often inactive.
@hometheatergurus Makes sense, thanks! I implemented front wides and upmixing a year or two ago to make my front stage more robust already and this seems like another way to boost things!
You could but in reality it doesn't exist. A 5.1 has side surrounds and the 7.1 adds rears to the 5.1. If you assigned a speaker in the location of rears but you assigned them as side surrounds you'd have huge gaps in panning from main to surround and everything that should be to your sides will be behind you.
I'm a Klipsch dealer but I wont sell them. Look up GR research to see actual measurements but even their RP line is designed very poorly with drivers out of alignment, CD louder than the woofer etc. The 504c is out of alignment with dips on axis and as soon as you move off axis they get drastically worse so side seats will have a very hard time with vocals. It's almost like their money goes into advertising but they forgot to budget some for design. There's far better speakers out there.
So how close to main seating position(only one seat in my living room theater) should back surrounds be placed? Im using Polk 702 as back surrounds because little room behind chair so they are off to sides but they fire out of sides with bass out of front. Very unique speaker and not a bi or dipole speakers as many think.
It's just a monopole with the woofer on a front baffle and mid/tweeter on angled baffle. As the woofer plays lower frequencies they can align them. Built in angle, so that's good for rears. The further away you are the better imaging you get but ideally 4' or more from the speaker.
I’m in a 5.1.4 BUT My “side surrounds” are currently on either side of MLP… in the ceiling. It’s the only option for now. I’m up against a wall on sofa and any lower and my 2 year old is definitely grabbing and hanging from them. Tell me how wrong this.
I think you know..haha. Sometimes you just have to make the best of it but currently you have no bedlayer other than an LCR, everything else including the surrounds are in the top layer. You'll have very poor performance and it's impossible to hear things as intended. Inwalls do work well especially when there's no room for bookshelves. Honestly I prefer inwalls for surrounds due to the issues they fix which we covered in the "inwalls suck " video. In reality they have some pretty big pluses.
Should rears be at the same height as the side speakers? I need to be above a light switch to the side, but can go lower with the rears. Working to a 7.2.4.
It's rare that they're at the same height, especially with risers. They must be high enough to clear seat backs but keep in mind raising them also pushes the atmos top rear forward.
I did this as Steve directed when rebuilding my theater and makes a huge difference. My sides are about 12” in front of my seating position and it works great.
Yep you'll need to run it so the AVR can set levels, align subs to mains etc. If you place the mic properly it can't mess it up. See the ARC video, ep 51. Even if you don't have arc the measuring procedure and target work apply.
@@hometheatergurusif we only are able to use the MultEQ Editor App from Denon do we lower the frequency range curtain to its lowest setting so Audyssey doesn’t mess with our EQ?
Have you used Json editor to mod audessey files? Every time I open one then save (even if I don't make any changes) once exported back to phone it is always corrupted.
Great video! Two questions: 1) What about 110 degrees with low back chairs? The speakers are still "visible" (i.e. direct line of sight). 2) Totally unrelated: How do you feel about the necessity of enclosures for in-ceiling speakers (e.g. Klipsch ME-800-C Fire Rated Metal Enclosure for 8" in-Ceiling Speaker)? If the ceiling cavity is filled with rock wool insulation will that have largely the same effect as the box? Thanks, your videos are the BEST! I've learned a ton from them.
Apologies if I am missing something. I have Set up my 5.1 bed layer according to Episode 1, where you say the surrounds should be a little behind the MLP. In that scenario, I would not be able to see the speakers. How does this tip reconcile with Episode 1? I also, have two rows on raised platforms (stadium) with seating for three each (couches). It should like I should try moving the speakers forward to see the impact. Thanks for your channel, it is my go to for all theatre DIY; absolutely indispensable site!!!
Ep 1 was years ago and went over the Dolby specs and just how to find angles in room. It wasn't really do this video but just helping guys calculate the tolerances.
How high should your wides be and the distance from the front , sides and Atmos I have yet to see any specs on this ??? Right now my Atmos speakers are 30 degrees from the center making them 60 degrees from each other and from front to rear they are about 110 degrees.
The wides height should be linear in reference to the surround and main so sound flows along the same plane. Atmos has been covered many times but the best to the point video is ep 49.
@@hometheatergurus I have reviewed the Ep 49 in the past which I had to watch over again. Unfortunately I am unable to lower my wides on my walls do to the opening on each side of the room and a sofa on one side as well . I have to put them on the wall 6ft from the floor but my front speakers are 5ft off the floor and my side speakers are 4.5ft off the floor so I’m not sure what to do with the layout because it’s a family room that I am using for my home theater room. I know that I am asking a lot but I am not sure what to do to make it work but I will have to figure it out.
At this moment I'm running 7.1, my side surrounds are om wall mounts nearly ceiling high aimed directly at my seating(couch) position, I'm adding 4 atmos to the system 7.1.4, should I lower my side surrounds? Ty
Yep, see the atmos setup videos. Ep 49 i think is the latest. We must have separation from the atmos or you'll be one of those guys thinking atmos sucks but in reality it's setup issues. We don't want that.
It is critical to bring them down away from the ceiling. 0.7 times the floor to ceiling height is the absolute maximum. And no more than 20 degrees elevation from ear level
I like that - if you can't see your surrounds you can't hear them! My room esthetics only allow me to place my surrounds in-ceiling. I got the angled in-ceiling speakers from OSD for that and love how it sounds and performs! Have them at 110 degrees 8 feet high, so 4-5 feet above ear level, not ideal or like on a PDF, but I can see them and it sounds great to me ;) Also I'm wondering, why do movies sound more real and true to life when I set all of my speakers to LARGE and even bypass audyssey by turning on pure/direct audio mode? I have a 5.1.2 and have 2 presets I can switch between on my DENON AVR, Preset 1 - 80 hz crossover all speakers small with audyssey ON, Preset 2 - just subwoofer crossover and all speakers LARGE with audyssey OFF. I feel like my speakers sound better when there's nothing messing with them, like audyssey EQ and crossover frequencies. I don't know why this is, but this just makes me run audyssey to get timing alignment and channel levels. I notice too much clarity and thin (robbed full range) from my speakers w/ audyssey ON and SMALL speakers, not very pleasant. Great for clarity, but not engaging enough. Thx!
Thanks! If your system sounds better set to large you have sub setup issues. Subs are placed at bad spots, out of alignment, not aligned to the mains etc. See ep 10 on sub setup. Subs are pretty complicated to get perfect but once you understand what's happening in room it makes it much easier.
@@hometheaterguruswow, this guy said not engaging enough? This video is PERFECT. You KNOW what you are talking about and get to the point . I’m going to watch more videos as I’m about ready to start my first home theater.
Do you mean rear speakers? If so I believe Steve was talking about the surrounds (side speakers) in a 7 bed layer, not the rear speakers (back speakers). Although the line of sight thing still stands for rears, which is why a lot of people raise them up a bit & point them down to the listening position to try & fire over high back seats.
@@northeastcorals I was talking about sides. He said sometimes 80 degrees is better than 90-110. I find it hard to believe in a 5.1 that is the case and want to know in what situation would he do that.
@@TyGuyPS5 I'm not sure how you can have side speakers in a 5.1 system? In a 5.1 system your 5 bed layer speakers consist of: LCR front speakers, plus LR rear speakers = 5 speakers (plus sub/subs) so where do the 2x side speakers come in? For side speakers you need 7 speakers otherwise you'd need to get rid of 2 speakers from somewhere else (either your rears or front LR speakers), which wouldn't make sense.
Yep with 7.1 but it can be used with 5 as well as 110 creates a huge gap from main to surround at 80 degrees or more so I honestly hate placing a surround at 110 ever.
@@northeastcorals in a 5.1 the lr rears are supposed to be 90-110 degrees. He made a comment about them sounding better in some situations at 80 degrees. I was asking for clarification on that. If he’s referring to a 7.1 only. When I say side I am referring to “rears” in a 5.1. They are not technically rears, they’re not behind you.
We had low backs for 6 months and completely quit using the room. I hated it as did the wife. We just couldn't get comfortable. We couldn't wait to put our high backs back in there so we could be comfortable and actually use our room. So yeah it's acoustically better but what good is a HT you don't even use? It's personal taste.
Before I installed my in-wall speakers, I built a cheap wood stand and tested different positions and ended up having the surrounds slightly forward from the MLP. I agree with you Steve.
There's actually been blind testing done and even when not blocked it was found people scored the slightly forward placement higher. I think it was a Floyd Toole study but can't remember. I wish i could find it again.
Hi, my room is 15 feet wide, and have the rear speakers on the back corners pointing at my seats, does that means that I've to move them more to the centre wall??
Hey I stumbled upon your channel and have been trying to wrap my head around speaker placement for a 7.2.4 I’m wondering if I could pay you for a consolation for the speaker layout in my dad’s living room. Watching videos from the very first video helped a lot but also made me come to the realization how critical speaker placement is.. I’m wondering what you would do in a living room situation where to the left side of the seating area completely opens up to the kitchen and there is no wall there? I mean there is if you go over far enough, (about 22 feet over from the left side of my head😅) where as the right side is 7 feet from the right side of my head. You can think of it like a “⊣ “shaped room , If it was just me I would just use a speaker stand and a bookshelf but my dad and his gf want minimal I’ve been kind of forced to try to do all in wall/ceiling because of ascetics. I thought maybe I could get away with doing an in ceiling speaker with adjustable angle and put it far far over and angle it to try and “fake it.” Like it’s coming from the side. The back throws me off too cuz the room is also long there is roughly 13 feet behind my head where I sit to the back wall.
I did purchase it through your link. I have all dif tech speakers from early 2000. It sound good even with the lower sensitivity of the speakers. I just don’t know how it compares to others. I do turn the volume up quick a bit, but its very clear.
Actually movie theaters are closer to the ceiling for the 5.1 amd 7.1 setups. The lowest I've seen them ever was about half the height and this is for atmos
In cinema the surround elevation is based on a straight line from screen speakers to the rears. That's why they're so high as it's about coverage. Then the Atmos are based on angle of separation from the surrounds. We actually compared the cinema, home and studio pdfs in ep 48. There are some huge differences as the Studio and Cinema layouts are performance based for their application where the home is hugely sales based. The Home info is very dumbed down with much of their tolerance windows sounding quite bad but of course more people are led to believe they can simply be in tolerance and experience atmos as intended.
Due to room constraints I had to place my surrounds at 110°... But I totally get what you are saying about high back chairs so I put them up at 5 ft and angled them down. This allows me to see the speaker from the main listening position even when reclined. 5 ft high is a little higher than I originally was planning for but in the balance of sacrifices I decided getting better performance out of that speaker was way more important than sticking to the angle of separation to the atmos.
Excellent advice as usual. I just want to add clarification for the very very new people to home theater. When he says the speaker should be visible, that means line of sight. Turn your head, look for the speaker. Does not mean visible in your periphery while looking straight ahead.
Thanks!!!
What if you place your surrounds high on the wall but angled at the MLP?
@@bluebuddha74 that’s fine. It’s recommended that you don’t go higher than 2 feet above your head when seated if you can avoid it. But try to stay at least a foot below the ceiling if you have to go higher.
@@mwrightinsurance thanks
Great video! Would love to see a similar discussion on the surrounds in a 5.1 system. Wonder if there’s any updates from your first episode.
Thanks! I've talked about that few times in the comments for this video. Read through them and you'll see them. Maybe i should do a video on that as well.
"Line of sight" for sides makes so much sense! - Thanks! - Cheers!
You're welcome!
Does the entire speaker need to be in sight or can I raise them to just line of sight of the tweeters?
@@joelgonzalez8289 I have my tweeter height just above ear level, but pulled forward a couple of feet - everyone (2 seats only) has line of sight to their ears.
Hey Joe, I think you know the answer to that..ha. You ideally want all drivers to have no blockage but having at least the tweeters unblocked is of course better. With a two way speaker your woofers may be crossed at 1500hz or over 2000hz or higher so the woofers can be handling quite a lot of content. Now as seen in the video, blocked by a head doesn't hurt nearly as low in frequency as a seat back so if it's just a seated head blocking it then it may not be enough of a big deal to worry about moving them.
Thanks Steven...I did know but was hoping it might not be that big of a deal. I need to compromise somewhere since I have highback seats in a 5.1.2 set up with a low 7.5' ceiling for atmos...create enough separation with surround tweeters showing at 110° from MLP or raise surrounds but closer up to atmos. 🤔
Thanks for that. In the new Theater here in our new house. I designed the atmos layout according to what you recommended from the Studio spec and from Anthony Grimani's webinars. My sides may be a little too high (in a 3.28m wide room) but they're both visible from all seats of the couch, allowing for awkward room features like a tall window on the left wall and a window behind the seating position (so rears are on the edge of the window recess. sides are at 110 deg from front and heights are about 25 deg forward and back from seating position with a 55 deg separation between them and almost the same to the sides. Should be good - once i get it fired up and stop modifying the speakers !
Would love to hear how your setup turned out. Did you stick with the 110 for the side surrounds or have a chance to try 80 like Steve recommends?
Great info as usual. I will try this out in my own system, I currently have mine at about 90 degrees. I think it makes perfect sense to place them closer to 70-75 degrees.
Let me know what you think. FYI I wouldn't push them more than to 80 as we still want them to sound like they're beside us.
@hometheatergurus I'll give it a try, thanks. I don't normally have people sitting beside me, my family doesn't care to watch movies. I'm curious if it does make a difference due to my high chair backs.
Hi @hometheatergurus
1.We are talking about side surrounds right?
Plus the only place I have for SIDE surrounds is at height 3' - 4' from the MLP. My MLP is about 3.9' from the side surrounds as well.
Would really appreciate your help..
Your videos are amazingly helpful and have passed it on to all my friends..
🙏🙏
I have a couch about 3' from the back wall, where I have my rear RS+ rear LS placed in the corners, aimed at the MLP.
2. Also how high should my rear RS+ rear LS be from the MLP?
I know you in one of your episodes mention 20°
@SpecofTech I have my "sides" at about 80 degrees and I am very happy with the sound field from them. Like you, I haven't anyone at home to enjoy the room with me anymore. Bummer ain't it?! Sure is a lonely hobby. I wish I had the means(funding and zero anxiety) to travel and spend time in and learning about the HTs of other enthusiasts. I guess the good Lord will take me as I sit on my couch alone. Current battle here is my 2nd/3rd hand 6 channel NAD CI 9060 amp that powers my ceiling and rear speakers has all but failed. Time to put it on the bench and repair it. Oh well.
I hope you continue to have fun and find a great deal of rewards in changing out gear in your room and posting videos of your adventure.
All the very best to you and yours, Kevin
Krix Phonix do a fantastic job, 15 degree front baffle allows you to raise them 1-2ft and still have them firing direct at the seating positions
Whats the deal with having the side surrounds forward of the listening position.
Ive had one in front in with 5 channels and all it resulted was in front of you sound. Same as what i get in imax.
Im building a home theater and im putting mine a bit behind up to 100 degrees. Even if theres a door in the way! Ill stick it on hinges to allow walking through!
I only have a 7’ ceiling and I’ve opted to not due Atmos. Recently sold my Volt8 surrounds. I am borrowing two surrounds from a friend. His are angled down towards the listening position. I mounted them pretty close to the ceiling. I really like the effect. Since I don’t have to worry about separation for Atmos, is this an acceptable way of dealing with keeping them away from things like heads and chair backs?
I will be buying and building new surrounds in the spring. It’s cold here in MN. If this is an ok thing to do, then I will design my new surrounds like this.
Thanks!
I got a 6,7' ceiling and have four atmos (nubert Ws14) and with the 50 Degree they work very good in a 5.2.4 setup ;I)
Should your surrounds be as close to the same height as your L/C/R, even if it means having to move your MLP back a few feet from the screen? I have a situation where a closet is right where I want to place the surrounds so unless I place them high and angled down toward the MLP, my only other option is to move the MLP back which might be a little too far from the screen
Thanks Great Video.. Moved my surrounds and sounding great. My only question with the speakers raised (up above the head by 30cm) In a narrow 13ft wide room do i need to angle my surrounds down to the listening level?? Thanks Guys
Im Think the same
Maybe this was already answered in one your earlier videos and may have missed it. I have a 5.1.2 set up with my surrounds at 110 degrees. I have high back theater seats so i raised the surrounds but only up to where i can see only the tweeters. Is this high enough or am i missing out still due to the woofers. I have a 7.5' ceiling and didnt want to be too close to the Atmos.
Interesting video. My situation has the ceiling 1.3 feet lower on the right side than the left (8.4’ lower side). Would you locate the Atmos speakers further away in plan view on the higher ceiling side than the lower side.
A wonderful video.Really enjoyed it.well done.
Many thanks!
Have a 5.1 speaker system. The 2 speakers that go in front ( not center ), my receiver has front speakers and front surround speakers. Which is the best connection for the best experience.
I angled my surrounds forward a bit, so I can see them but keep them slightly above ear-level because those are the heights of my speaker stands. Is that okay or should I be moving them back more and putting them up higher? You had another video on angles. I'm afraid surrounds and rears will be too close wit those angles. I'd have to move the rears closer together to get better separation.
How do you deal with placement when you have two rows of seats?
Hi @hometheatergurus
1. Awesome videos on speaker placements!
Talking about side surrounds, you say they should be between 70-80°. So if im sitting in the MLP is that 70-80° from the front or back assuming 90° is obviously directly on my side.?
Plus the only place I have for SIDE surrounds is at height 3' - 4' from the MLP. My MLP is about 3.9' from the side surrounds as well.
Would really appreciate your help..
Your videos are amazingly helpful and have passed it on to all my friends..
🙏🙏
I have a couch about 3' from the back wall, where I have my rear RS+ rear LS placed in the corners, aimed at the MLP.
2. Also how high should my rear RS+ rear LS be from the MLP?
I know you in one of your episodes mention 20°
Thanks for watching. The video didn't say 70. It said 85-80 (if required). If you need help laying out your room I do offer a room design/layout service. Just contact me using the email in the video description.
Thanks for the prompt reply..
I live in the subcontinent so access to services here are limited.
Will email you surely. Thanks
I just wanted to clarify if I could place the sides at height of 3' above my ear level as I don't have an I can't go lower.
Also my rear R+L surrounds are only 3 diagonally from my MLP so I feel if I place the the side surrounds off 90° they will be too to close to rear R+L..
At 90° there only 3' approx between the sides and the rear surrounds.
Can sides can be placed at a height of say 3'.6" above angled towards the MLP?
i think, horizontal 110 degrees( maintaining vertical angles according to your videos) with recliners at reclined position (speakers in line of sight) would be the best trade off for 5 bed layers setup. we can also feel phantom rears with that angle. having side surrounds in at 85-80 degrees would cancel off rear phantom effect and the atmospheric sounds in surrounds does not feel enclosed in a 5 bed layer setup. the objects placement will be little off, you can check that with object visualizer.
That is mentioned in the video but one thing i forgot is that at 110 you have an 80 degree gap to a main at 30 degrees in an area we are very sensitive to gaps. Even more if you have the mains at less than 30. That is not ideal at all but of course 5 channel bedlayer isn't ideal either but sometimes it's what makes sense for the room.
@@hometheatergurus ya ,there is a gap of 80 degrees . My mains are at 30 degrees. Speakers with a good soundstage for lcr would help to combat that gap (at least a bit). As you said it is always a compromise, unless i can build a 9 channel bed setup.
I can sense the gap in very slow pans using the atmos visualiser,for fast pans (like in most movies) i couldn't feel the gap. Also very less movies make use of wides.
The wides aren't needed with the fwd surround position as we have closed that gap to 50-55 degrees. So it's not needed at least for the mlp but they do help the side seats as explained in the wide video. But like you said wides while Upmixed 100 percent aren't always present in a mix which makes closing that surround to main gap a pretty big deal, when possible.
@@hometheatergurus ya ,but that would create a huge gap behind mlp,if there are no rears. Also for 2 row theatres,110 would be a good compromise for both the rows.
My second row has the surround speakers at 80 degrees,the issue with that is the side seats would hear more of surround speakers than lcr,even with proper level matching at mlp. with surrounds behind our ears,side seats would not hear those much. As you mentioned,our ears pick up front sounds easily.
So if we have a 5.1.4, and there is only 1 MLP with no high back seat or anything blocking my side surrounds, can I leave them at 90? Or should I still move them forward to 85-80 and aimed towards my single MLP?
If we're dealing with large side surround speakers in a narrow space, would you say it's important to see the entire speaker if somebody is seated next to you, or is it enough just to make sure the top tweeter is unobstructed? That distinction alone can alter the mounting height by a good 7" on some models.
The size of the speaker doesn't matter, the video is relevant but if the tweeter is never blocked you need to know what the tweeter is crossed at and understand what frequencies are being damaged by seated heads or seat backs.
Do you find if you have chairs very close to the side walls that changes your recommendation here at all? Great video.
nope, I should have discussed this but side seats are always a compromise and never let a compromised seat sink the whole ship. Also if the speaker is say at 80 degrees from the MLP, as we move closer to it we are more and more off axis, think about what happens with moving more off axis, we lose upper energy, so it's less annoying to the closer seat and as we move closer it's louder but as we move more off axis we lose upper end so it's actually helping. It's sorta like extreme toe in of mains where we manipulate the on and off axis. That close seat may be 30 degrees off axis or more which can be good.
I follow your channel, I enjoy the information that you provide. Do you have any advice- my theatre has an open side wall. 19by 30 by7 foot ceiling. Primarily acoustical panels. placement. Advice. Thx 🙏🏽
Thanks for watching. See the 4 part series on acoustics. The last one goes over placement and covers such rooms. Just google Home Theater Gurus acoustics
Thank you so much, great information;) Cheers !
Oh man looks like I have to move them. I am only running 7.2 no atmos. Mine are behind my seat a decent bit but I have them aimed at my seats.
If you can see them you can hear them so they may be fine. If you can't see them moving them will make a huge difference.
@@hometheatergurus I wonder if I move my seats back 2 feet would just be easier. How far should my seats be from my 65” OLED tv? Right now I am 8feet from headrest to screen.
Well i like to have 40 degrees minimum for a Home Theater so that's around 6.5' away. For living rooms though most aren't after theater like immersion.
@@hometheatergurus ok I sent a PM with a few pictures so you can see what I am talking about
He did not follow the dolby spec.
110 deg for sides is when you don't have back speakers (5.x.x)
if you have back speakers, you need to put the sides at 90 deg. (7.x.x) (but this only works if you have a single chair, as you said).
At least this is what i remember from dolby home pdf.
EDIT: yes, everyone forgets the height of the sides and backs.
Tthey forget that you can put them heigher and angle them down. Again as you said, depends on how wide the room is, because they can mix with the height speakers.
What about the case where we have 4 ceiling speakers? If we move surround forward to the point where we can see them, they get much closer to the front top which means they will get more mixed with front top. Is it still desirable to have surround at viewing angle even if it gets them closer to front top speakers?
Did you use ep 49 to layout atmos? Any speaker or sound moving along your bedlayer should not smear to your atmos. This only happens if you have a bedlayer speaker too high in angle or atmos too low in angle.
My biggest problem in my new room build has been calculating distances without being 100% sure of the mlp. MLP may need to change due to tweaking of FL, FR speakers once they are in position… so how to drill tor wire locations when speakers could be changed by several inches once everything is in place? 🤔😢
This is why getting a room design is so important. You just follow the design.
How does this advice play in to a 9 channel bed layer? It seems like putting side surrounds at less than 90 would really compress the front sound stage and leave a huge gap for the rears to cover.
It doesn't change the surround placement. As we don't hear that well from 90 and back you won't have any panning issues behind you. We are however very very perceptive to sound in the front half. Also while the better processors can use DSU to upmix wides, when watching content in Atmos etc the wides are often inactive.
@hometheatergurus Makes sense, thanks! I implemented front wides and upmixing a year or two ago to make my front stage more robust already and this seems like another way to boost things!
Can u have a 5.1.2 system without sidesurrounds and just with backsurrounds?
You could but in reality it doesn't exist. A 5.1 has side surrounds and the 7.1 adds rears to the 5.1. If you assigned a speaker in the location of rears but you assigned them as side surrounds you'd have huge gaps in panning from main to surround and everything that should be to your sides will be behind you.
would Klipsch reference speakers with Denon receiver be a good system .. 5.2
I'm a Klipsch dealer but I wont sell them. Look up GR research to see actual measurements but even their RP line is designed very poorly with drivers out of alignment, CD louder than the woofer etc. The 504c is out of alignment with dips on axis and as soon as you move off axis they get drastically worse so side seats will have a very hard time with vocals. It's almost like their money goes into advertising but they forgot to budget some for design. There's far better speakers out there.
So how close to main seating position(only one seat in my living room theater) should back surrounds be placed? Im using Polk 702 as back surrounds because little room behind chair so they are off to sides but they fire out of sides with bass out of front. Very unique speaker and not a bi or dipole speakers as many think.
It's just a monopole with the woofer on a front baffle and mid/tweeter on angled baffle. As the woofer plays lower frequencies they can align them. Built in angle, so that's good for rears. The further away you are the better imaging you get but ideally 4' or more from the speaker.
Thanks, The 702 is actually Polk LSIM surround speakers but they are perfect as back surrounds for people with no room behind seats.@@hometheatergurus
I’m in a 5.1.4 BUT My “side surrounds” are currently on either side of MLP… in the ceiling. It’s the only option for now. I’m up against a wall on sofa and any lower and my 2 year old is definitely grabbing and hanging from them. Tell me how wrong this.
I think you know..haha. Sometimes you just have to make the best of it but currently you have no bedlayer other than an LCR, everything else including the surrounds are in the top layer. You'll have very poor performance and it's impossible to hear things as intended. Inwalls do work well especially when there's no room for bookshelves. Honestly I prefer inwalls for surrounds due to the issues they fix which we covered in the "inwalls suck " video. In reality they have some pretty big pluses.
Should rears be at the same height as the side speakers? I need to be above a light switch to the side, but can go lower with the rears. Working to a 7.2.4.
It's rare that they're at the same height, especially with risers. They must be high enough to clear seat backs but keep in mind raising them also pushes the atmos top rear forward.
@@hometheatergurus thank you for your reply! And thank you for all the videos, they’re super helpful and easy to follow.
I did this as Steve directed when rebuilding my theater and makes a huge difference. My sides are about 12” in front of my seating position and it works great.
Off topic: should I run room EQ after I set all my subs up in MiniDSP? I feel like it will mess all my work up
Yep you'll need to run it so the AVR can set levels, align subs to mains etc. If you place the mic properly it can't mess it up. See the ARC video, ep 51. Even if you don't have arc the measuring procedure and target work apply.
@@hometheatergurusif we only are able to use the MultEQ Editor App from Denon do we lower the frequency range curtain to its lowest setting so Audyssey doesn’t mess with our EQ?
Thank you for taking the time to give us a great tip! 👍
My pleasure!
Have you used Json editor to mod audessey files? Every time I open one then save (even if I don't make any changes) once exported back to phone it is always corrupted.
No I sure haven't.
Great video! Two questions:
1) What about 110 degrees with low back chairs? The speakers are still "visible" (i.e. direct line of sight).
2) Totally unrelated: How do you feel about the necessity of enclosures for in-ceiling speakers (e.g. Klipsch ME-800-C Fire Rated Metal Enclosure for 8" in-Ceiling Speaker)? If the ceiling cavity is filled with rock wool insulation will that have largely the same effect as the box?
Thanks, your videos are the BEST! I've learned a ton from them.
That works great for 5.1. For 7.1 you need more separation from the rears. Ideally.
What is the best way to contact you?
Hey Richard, look in the video descriptions and you'll see my email.
Apologies if I am missing something. I have Set up my 5.1 bed layer according to Episode 1, where you say the surrounds should be a little behind the MLP. In that scenario, I would not be able to see the speakers. How does this tip reconcile with Episode 1? I also, have two rows on raised platforms (stadium) with seating for three each (couches). It should like I should try moving the speakers forward to see the impact. Thanks for your channel, it is my go to for all theatre DIY; absolutely indispensable site!!!
Ep 1 was years ago and went over the Dolby specs and just how to find angles in room. It wasn't really do this video but just helping guys calculate the tolerances.
How high should your wides be and the distance from the front , sides and Atmos I have yet to see any specs on this ??? Right now my Atmos speakers are 30 degrees from the center making them 60 degrees from each other and from front to rear they are about 110 degrees.
The wides height should be linear in reference to the surround and main so sound flows along the same plane. Atmos has been covered many times but the best to the point video is ep 49.
@@hometheatergurus I have reviewed the Ep 49 in the past which I had to watch over again. Unfortunately I am unable to lower my wides on my walls do to the opening on each side of the room and a sofa on one side as well . I have to put them on the wall 6ft from the floor but my front speakers are 5ft off the floor and my side speakers are 4.5ft off the floor so I’m not sure what to do with the layout because it’s a family room that I am using for my home theater room. I know that I am asking a lot but I am not sure what to do to make it work but I will have to figure it out.
At this moment I'm running 7.1, my side surrounds are om wall mounts nearly ceiling high aimed directly at my seating(couch) position, I'm adding 4 atmos to the system 7.1.4, should I lower my side surrounds? Ty
Yep, see the atmos setup videos. Ep 49 i think is the latest. We must have separation from the atmos or you'll be one of those guys thinking atmos sucks but in reality it's setup issues. We don't want that.
It is critical to bring them down away from the ceiling.
0.7 times the floor to ceiling height is the absolute maximum. And no more than 20 degrees elevation from ear level
I like that - if you can't see your surrounds you can't hear them! My room esthetics only allow me to place my surrounds in-ceiling. I got the angled in-ceiling speakers from OSD for that and love how it sounds and performs! Have them at 110 degrees 8 feet high, so 4-5 feet above ear level, not ideal or like on a PDF, but I can see them and it sounds great to me ;) Also I'm wondering, why do movies sound more real and true to life when I set all of my speakers to LARGE and even bypass audyssey by turning on pure/direct audio mode? I have a 5.1.2 and have 2 presets I can switch between on my DENON AVR, Preset 1 - 80 hz crossover all speakers small with audyssey ON, Preset 2 - just subwoofer crossover and all speakers LARGE with audyssey OFF. I feel like my speakers sound better when there's nothing messing with them, like audyssey EQ and crossover frequencies. I don't know why this is, but this just makes me run audyssey to get timing alignment and channel levels. I notice too much clarity and thin (robbed full range) from my speakers w/ audyssey ON and SMALL speakers, not very pleasant. Great for clarity, but not engaging enough. Thx!
Thanks! If your system sounds better set to large you have sub setup issues. Subs are placed at bad spots, out of alignment, not aligned to the mains etc. See ep 10 on sub setup. Subs are pretty complicated to get perfect but once you understand what's happening in room it makes it much easier.
@@hometheaterguruswow, this guy said not engaging enough? This video is PERFECT. You KNOW what you are talking about and get to the point . I’m going to watch more videos as I’m about ready to start my first home theater.
In what situation would you put surrounds at 80 degrees? Or was that in reference to 7.1
Do you mean rear speakers? If so I believe Steve was talking about the surrounds (side speakers) in a 7 bed layer, not the rear speakers (back speakers). Although the line of sight thing still stands for rears, which is why a lot of people raise them up a bit & point them down to the listening position to try & fire over high back seats.
@@northeastcorals I was talking about sides. He said sometimes 80 degrees is better than 90-110. I find it hard to believe in a 5.1 that is the case and want to know in what situation would he do that.
@@TyGuyPS5 I'm not sure how you can have side speakers in a 5.1 system? In a 5.1 system your 5 bed layer speakers consist of: LCR front speakers, plus LR rear speakers = 5 speakers (plus sub/subs) so where do the 2x side speakers come in?
For side speakers you need 7 speakers otherwise you'd need to get rid of 2 speakers from somewhere else (either your rears or front LR speakers), which wouldn't make sense.
Yep with 7.1 but it can be used with 5 as well as 110 creates a huge gap from main to surround at 80 degrees or more so I honestly hate placing a surround at 110 ever.
@@northeastcorals in a 5.1 the lr rears are supposed to be 90-110 degrees. He made a comment about them sounding better in some situations at 80 degrees.
I was asking for clarification on that. If he’s referring to a 7.1 only. When I say side I am referring to “rears” in a 5.1. They are not technically rears, they’re not behind you.
I'm fortunate coz even though I have 2 rows of seats I'm watching alone 95% of the time 😂
ha.. yeah that's why the new room only has one row. :)
@@hometheatergurusHigh back chairs are dumb.
We had low backs for 6 months and completely quit using the room. I hated it as did the wife. We just couldn't get comfortable. We couldn't wait to put our high backs back in there so we could be comfortable and actually use our room. So yeah it's acoustically better but what good is a HT you don't even use? It's personal taste.
@@hometheatergurus Yeh theres no way I'm settling down to LOTR extended edition on a low back 😆
Same here, listening alone only
Before I installed my in-wall speakers, I built a cheap wood stand and tested different positions and ended up having the surrounds slightly forward from the MLP. I agree with you Steve.
There's actually been blind testing done and even when not blocked it was found people scored the slightly forward placement higher. I think it was a Floyd Toole study but can't remember. I wish i could find it again.
Hi, my room is 15 feet wide, and have the rear speakers on the back corners pointing at my seats, does that means that I've to move them more to the centre wall??
It depends on what angle their at. All speakers should be placed based on angle.
Hey I stumbled upon your channel and have been trying to wrap my head around speaker placement for a 7.2.4 I’m wondering if I could pay you for a consolation for the speaker layout in my dad’s living room. Watching videos from the very first video helped a lot but also made me come to the realization how critical speaker placement is.. I’m wondering what you would do in a living room situation where to the left side of the seating area completely opens up to the kitchen and there is no wall there? I mean there is if you go over far enough, (about 22 feet over from the left side of my head😅) where as the right side is 7 feet from the right side of my head. You can think of it like a “⊣ “shaped room , If it was just me I would just use a speaker stand and a bookshelf but my dad and his gf want minimal I’ve been kind of forced to try to do all in wall/ceiling because of ascetics. I thought maybe I could get away with doing an in ceiling speaker with adjustable angle and put it far far over and angle it to try and “fake it.” Like it’s coming from the side. The back throws me off too cuz the room is also long there is roughly 13 feet behind my head where I sit to the back wall.
Hey Beamer, see the contact info in the video description and shoot me an email.
When will you review the Tonewinner 11ch amp?
I have some new amps coming in soon and plan to do an update review soon. It's an absolute beast though.
I did purchase it through your link. I have all dif tech speakers from early 2000. It sound good even with the lower sensitivity of the speakers. I just don’t know how it compares to others. I do turn the volume up quick a bit, but its very clear.
problem…Hollywood makes one watchable movie a year.
All you have to do is go into any movie theater and look up at the walls. The surrounds are like 3 feet above ear level and a foot in front of you.
Actually movie theaters are closer to the ceiling for the 5.1 amd 7.1 setups.
The lowest I've seen them ever was about half the height and this is for atmos
In cinema the surround elevation is based on a straight line from screen speakers to the rears. That's why they're so high as it's about coverage. Then the Atmos are based on angle of separation from the surrounds. We actually compared the cinema, home and studio pdfs in ep 48. There are some huge differences as the Studio and Cinema layouts are performance based for their application where the home is hugely sales based. The Home info is very dumbed down with much of their tolerance windows sounding quite bad but of course more people are led to believe they can simply be in tolerance and experience atmos as intended.
You don't have that problem with the Bose system.