I regularly read Hoodbhoy's article in Dawn.... His unbiased perspective and sophisticated language teach me a lot. He personally is very humble man. I met him at Human Rights Commission Office Lahore. He still has keypad phone and was talking to everyone politely even with youngesters like us.... I like him a lot
Most surprisingly, both Jinnah and Gandhiji didn't have a very specific economic vision for their respective nations. Gandhiji, off course dwelt on Swadeshi and rural economy, but that was not an integrated and wholistic view of the economy. Both died immediately after independence. But India had Nehru as a true visionary, but Pakistan had none. India also had a course correction in 1991, as Nehru's vision had become outdated. For Pakistan, forget Jinnah, no one after him had any economic vision. That is why Pakistan is in dire state today and it's economy has plunged deep into anarchy and bankruptcy.
dude you need to understand swadeshi moment which is nothing but AthmaNirbar all you need to do put a slight pressure on your brain. During Gandhi time 90% of Indians pressing issue was roti-kapada-Makhan. They were slaves to local zamindar who took order from local Raj who were proxy for British. Gandhi broke this mould and gave hope and voice to poor but majority of Indian population. This was a direct threat to Raj/Nawabs/zamindars and British. Jinnah was creation of this threat he was funded by All India muslim league which was group of Nawabs and zamindars. Remember the biggest looser of Indian independence was these Nawabs/Maharajas who were living in their fairytale palaces. I am sure there will be one near your place take a look that magnificent palaces their life style and think who were real slaves and who were real rulers.
As a pakistani I say this: Given the condition of Indian muslims under the fascist regime today and what it was during Jinnah's era only proves Jinnah had been a visionary. He was able to envisage that a day like this would come for muslims living in India. Muslims who have left for Pakistan have safegaurded their lives, property and dignity but once after forming the country the Pakistanis have ruined it, one aft another, worst corrupted people have been ruling it , not to mention the menace of violence and terrorism in the name of j!had,a all due to their stupid wrongful interpretation of their own religion has put Pakistan in a worst state while in India there were great leaders like Nehru's and the Gandhi's which has made India progress and now due to the current leaders , you are just coming our way buddies.
@@nafisasumayya9168 Thanks to Jinnah he divided Muslims of subcontinent into three countries. Jinnah was hired lawyer by Nawabs to safe safeguard their lands in Punjab and bengal. He served them really well as their grand kids, zaradari's,bhutto's shariff's and other elites enjoy Pakistan. Jinnah also served his British masters, UK and later USA has complete control on Pakistan and its army. Imran Khan had the same dillisuion that some how Pakistan can make it;s decision he is now rotting in his own Jail. Imagine u cricket hero, former PM rotting in Jail and you are worried about Indian Muslims. We can give example of thousands of successful Muslim in fascist government. Please name one non Muslim in Pakistan who holds a highest office.
@@Arabic4Qyou being an intellectually challenged person, it doesn’t matter what you think about him. I don’t agree to lots of his assertions on variety of subject but on Jinnah equation he is right on the mark.
Nothing Hoodbhoy said about Jinnah was secret. Even Jinnah would say that he was not a devout Muslim, so? The question is whether Jinnah's 'conversion' was authentic or not? We believe it was. He remained angry at his daughter for marrying a Parsi (not allowed in Islamic law) until death, and did not speak to her even on his death bed. He did what he did for the Muslims what he thought was best. His sincerity convinced millions - even if his Urdu couldn't. It is for God to judge his heart, not for a scumbag like Hoodbhoy - jo na teen main, na tera main.
As Indians we cant be more grateful to Jawaharlal Nehru. He had a comprehensive vision for India that he developed throughout 1930s and 40s. His belief in democracy and secularism more than any leader of his time created a democratic state while majority of new born countries all around were turning autocratic. Plus his overarching political power ensured military was subservient to politcal class. We as a nation cant be nore grateful and also be careful not to take freedom for granted.
I'm an Indian, a BJP supporter and what you would might call a 'Bhakt'. Having said that, I am the biggest fan of Professor Parvez Hoodboy. I have followed him closely for many years now and feel that both, India and Pakistan need more people like him. He has a positive impact on society and I always listen to his talks/interviews a lot. #Respect I envy Pakistan for having produced such a man
He likes hoodbhoy because he criticizes Pakistan and rightly so. but if someone does the same in India, our bhakt brother would label him a deshdrohi and ask him to go to Hoodbhoys country!
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person.
@@Abir-o8qyes we are ok with that if he target any Indian leaders. If he target Hindus then we will have problem with him. Some time we also thinks very bad words for our father.
We should follow Ambedkar strictly. According to Ambedkar complete papulation exchange is the only solution and so papulation exchange should be done immediately.
Jinnah was the lawyer of feudal class who wanted to protect their feudal privileges post british exit. This seems to be the most rational explanation based on documents, speeches, events that happened post independence and it also explains other anamolies like his flirtation with hindu princes etc.
Well, maybe just read up on him. Jinnah belonged to an Ismaili Gujrati banya community. Certainly not from big land owning feudal family, also he was a second generation convert meaning his grand parents were hindus. So certainly not from an aristocratic background with a long lineage. Whether you like him or not is an other issue. But that's his background..
Well, lawyers at that time were typically products of upper class, anglicized upbringing - and let's not forget India was then entirely a feudal country.
As a pakistani I say this: Given the condition of Indian muslims under the fascist regime today and what it was during Jinnah's era only proves Jinnah had been a visionary. He was able to envisage that a day like this would come for muslims living in India. Muslims who have left for Pakistan have safegaurded their lives, property and dignity but once after forming the country the Pakistanis have ruined it, one aft another, worst corrupted people have been ruling it , not to mention the menace of violence and terrorism in the name of j!had,a all due to their stupid wrongful interpretation of their own religion has put Pakistan in a worst state while in India there were great leaders like Nehru's and the Gandhi's which has made India progress and now due to the current leaders , you are just coming our way buddies.
@@nafisasumayya9168even though the current hindutva bjp government possesses a discrimination towards Muslims in India they can implement it in the bjp controlled 'Hindi - Heartland states' of Northern India but cannot be implemented whole across the country as india has a federal structure, each state has it's own cultures and cuisines and language that it hold. One such example is Kerala the bjp can't infuse their divisive rhetoric on us, I'm from Kerala and Muslims are undoubtedly the safest here in Kerala. Islam has been a part of Kerala's since the prophets time due to trading before Pakistan and North India heard about Islam The Hindutva BJP holds power in the centre because of 38% of the electoral vote and mind you not even 50% of the Hindu population voted for Bjp and modi in 2019(only about 44.56% the rest 55% voted for the opposition) so this narrative that every Hindu votes for bjp is nonsense. The opposition is more United this time they can be defeated in the next election and the discrimination could be ended
Prof. Hoodbhoy is a true intellectual and a down to earth person. I had sent him a casual email with some questions/suggestions a few years back and I was surprised that he took the time to read thro my email and send a constructive response!
@@MrExplorer831 bro listen me out first, pervez hoodbhoy has created a forum called The Black Hole in Islamabad for inculcating scientific temperament in children and youth, basically the next generation of Pakistan. He named it black hole because he doesn't know whether all his effort will come to any fruition or will go to waste, just like nobody knows what's happening with matter that gets sucked in by the black holes. Hehe You really didn't need to get so religious all of sudden.
Karan Thappar and Hoodhbhoy misses the central point. British wanted a footprint in South Asia and prevent Russia from reaching warm waters. Independent India won’t accept foreign troop base in the country hence Pakistan was created. Jinnah was following British diktat. The creation of Pakistan was inevitable consequence of British policy of divide and rule.
Well what British wanted is one thing. But it could only bear fruit because the Muslim had a sense of deprivation, which could partially be also seen in data in terms of their economic, educational, social standing. But then questioning ones historical political narrative is difficult... to close to comfort, also because all those fault lines persist to date..
100 percent creation of Pakistan was Karachi port because USA and British worried about Nehru would give Karachi port to USSR therefore USA push to divide indis
The country, India was divided for the past several centuries once Muslim rulers took over. Muslim rulers took the advantage of a country already divided by cast and languages. Two infighting religions were at dragger drawn to each other and they were Hindus and Buddhists. New Muslim rulers took the advantage of divided and fractionated India to establish their draconian rules. Because of that Muslim rules, Hindus were in fighting mode with the Muslim rulers and the British took the advantage and established another exploitation cycle. Some conservative Hindus cooperated with British to dislodge the Muslim rulers from the power corridor. See, the subcontinent was never an united place. In fact, the current India is more united than ever before because of its democratic constitution. So the BJP Govt should make sure that democracy persists and religions do not come in running the country.
Perfect. This has been summed up in Mountbatten's diaries; and those sly and treacherous British snakes still refuse to make the contents of the diary public.
Much of this information is available in scholar Nasim Yousaf's books and articles, including the one in the Harvard Asia Quarterly. His revelations came decades ago.
@@soorej-k2n But his death had other reasons.....At least we had a strong leader which was removed by "unknown" hands we can guess almost. Atleast Pakistan had the chance of establishing some democratic institutions, had the chance to strengthen some democratic norms which require decades. Lost too early.
@@soorej-k2n that is not the reason for any of this. Islam is our religion but when relogion is used to keep a nation hijacked, that's where it all got messed up.
Looking back, Nehru deserves our gratitude for being a great visionary in shaping India's destiny. If Jinnah was a curse for Pakistan, Nehru was a blessing for India. History is etched not written.
Jinnah was never a curse for Pakistan. What you say is your state narrative. Jinnah died 1 year after creation of Pakistan. He could not have enough time to shape Pakistan after its creation. But he was a visionary leader.
@@Wanderer975Jinnah never explained his vision. If he had one he could have talked about it or even write about it so that later generations can struggle to get it done. That’s how great leaders do. He said many conflicting things at many times that too vaguely.
@@blindwatchmaker3650whatever you may think , it will be a reality that by the end of this decade Bharat will be among the top 3 economies of the world
"Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three. " R.I.P great Man ❤
@@Aayushman_Yen we were , are and will always be brothers in faith, Political incidents couldn't and can't take away our love for Bengali Muslims, even our love for Indian Muslims is the same who are forced to hate Pakistan bcz of Bhajpa's Hindutva policies
Brilliant guys at work. Beyond all doubt. Dr. Hoodbhoy`s regular articles in The Dawn is a must read for me. The language used is absolutely mesmerising. This Dr. is the only rare one who is unbiased in India-Pakistan relationship. Thank you very much to Karan and Dr. A wonderful interview indeed.
It is interesting you used the word 'biased'. They are scholars... they probe multiple opinions and viewpoints and shape their own view. They are not politicians or common masses. That is why you felt....
Had they been visionaries, they would have done full population exchange. if that happened there would be no Hindutva. After decades of suffering from islamic terorism people donot believe in your type of secularism
Kudos for having Pervez H. for the interview. He's an accomplished physicist, devout educationist, a great intellectual of his time, and importantly not afraid to call a spade a spade. He could be a potential Nobel laureate from Pakistan!
I’m sure Prof. Hoodbhoy would be much happier if his vision for Pakistan were adopted by more people in his country and resulted in positive change than if he won the Nobel.
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
Hindus should be as tolerant as Musalman. India should be as secular as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Musalman should be treated in India as Musalman treat with others in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and even in Kashmir.
As an Indian i have always felt that the world has lot to learn from Professor Parvez Hoodboy. Sharp mind who thinks through things. I hope the Indians especially in India read his book and realize how important his advise was in the last part of the interview. India is now at a cross road and i mean that literally. If we take the path of majoritarianism we as a nation are going to go down a very dark dangerous path. I hope India realizes this and wakes up.
lol bro just because you grew up At 2023 doesn't mean everything was rose mary when u were Child . India is diverse and lot diverse than u can imagine . Hindus uniting is one thing & discrimination on mass level as Told by all these pakis & left eco is another. Yes we were doing genocide in 2019 with Caa /nrc and all Muslim would be expelled out..Have you seen that happening.
It appears from this discussions that jinna was a man with eggo and power grabber became popular the then time amongst the poor and illeterate Muslims.jinna basically gave sweet dreams to Muslims by dividing lndia and created a Muslim state for nothing It is quite evident now how better is Pakistan.
To mix metaphors, we are not only at a crossroads but on the brink of an abyss. If we continue on the majoritarian route now there will be no chance of returning to sanity.
Not a wise advise by the way. Change at heart is needed by Pakistani think tank. You can't leed a country on the basis of RELIGION. It's very personal.
Dr Hoodbhoy is a great intellectual who is not only inspirational for Pakistani society but for actually the whole world ... I am neither an Indian nor a Pakistani but I love Mr Hoodbhoy for his extraordinary intellectual height...
What intellectual height? If intellectual capability is so you care about, learn from subject matter experts like for jinnah there is dr Ishtiaq ahmed and dr Aisha Jalal. If you are looking for physics there are a thousand better people than him.
My admiration, Karan Thapar. You Interview with the aim to explore without prejudice some of the best. Long may interview without prejudice - one intelligent human and another. Thank you.
I just loved the line by Pervez Sir India should not repeat the same mistake ; I hope Indian will not let this happen like we come out of Emergency , Politician comes and go but most likely diversity of India will keep on flourishing .
India can never go the Pakistan way, Hinduism is such a plural religion, assimilating so many diverse thoughts that we can never be like them. Religion will make us good human beings. Jai Shri Ram!
Why Jinnah? Any Muslim is a visionary and clear to the extent that hindus and Muslims are two separate nations. Only point of difference is Karan has no issue with Muslims saying that.
Jinnah played a role of a Father, he worked hard and alone to build a house for his children. Now we should be discussing how his children treated his house. And we should ask a question to ourselves that can we do a greater job than Jinnah?
Human societies don't work according to your philosophy. They work on British naturalist Charles Darwin's term, survival of the fittest. You must read and understand the history of North America (United States of America and Canada), Thanks.
Jinnah did not solicit leadership of Muslim League. He had resigned from congress and ML in disgust, left india and settled in UK. Iqbal, Liaqat Ali and five prominent members of ML invited him back. It took them three years of pleading to bring him back and pick up the reigns of ML. Jinnah was given a task of forming Pakistan, (it was first Iqbal’s idea not Jinnah), being attorney he accepted it as a legal case and won. Why blame him for anything? In fact he should be applauded for his professionalism, he took on the might of British Empire, Congress, princely states, various other Muslim parties, muslim clerics etc etc and still came out victorious. Whether partition was good or bad is a dead horse argument. It’s a fact. Deal with it. If still not happy accede to Pakistan and you can have united subcontinent.
The video of a man, woman and two children purportedly held hostage by Hamas militants is being widely shared on social media. The two children can be seen sobbing for “their sister”, who cannot be seen in the video, while the adults are trying to console them. A person, most likely their captor, shouts: “Relax, relax, she went to heaven.”
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
@@ehaaronboth parties are right in their logical thinking. That's why fighting going on but left liberals and Marxist have history changes like fox and abandon their common camrades.
A Wise Man Once Said: History Speaks to the Future, Not the Past. What a leader eats or wears matters less than what he accomplishes. Focus on the enduring impact, not the trivial details; A leader's actions are shaped by the moment, not by hindsight. Understand the constraints before casting judgment. In endless debates about the past, we lose the chance to shape tomorrow. Let history be a compass, not an anchor.True analysis comes with understanding, not condemnation. Approach history with respect, for it is the foundation of present and future wisdom.
Jinnah's all energy was spent in garnering support for & creating Pakistan. He had no time to create vision for Pakistan. He was dying as Pakistan was being born. It is here that he diverges from Nehru who had a deep vision for India. Jinnah had no time really. He was firefighting from the word "Go". Though he managed to carve out a separate nation , he had to settle with a lesser / minor state. He had superiority complex vis a vis Nehru that he could never outgrow. He was constrained in more than one ways including in intellectual terms as compared to Nehru.
With respect I would like disagree with the half half of ur comment. Unlike Nehru who was far more busy with political struggle and spending years in jail, Jinnah never went to jail neither he struggled for freedom post 1920s. He had all the time in the world to prepare a vision. But he didn't for some reason.
@@Raj0520 Though idea for Pakistan was first put forth in 1933 , Jinnah got drawn into Muslim league politics after 1935 & demand for Pakistan became strident only after 1937 elections in which Muslim league recieved humiliating defeat even in muslim majority areas. Jinnah was then got consumed in need to push for & convince muslims regarding Pakistan. Even then future of Pakistan was not given. Britain & India were then drawn into WWII Partition became inevitable after 1946 elections during which Muslim league won majority of seats in Muslim dominated areas. In matter of 10 years Jinnah managed to build significant ground support for Pakistan. Unlike Nehru who had support of galaxy of national leaders , Jinnah was leading Muslim league politics single handedly. He was neck deep in issue of creating pakistan such that he had little time to think about future of pakistan. Those were the tumultous years. Actually Jinnah was open for loose union of two autonomous dominions - one India & one pakistan ( East & West ) . Congress rejected such plan because weak union would have meant eventual balkanisation of India. Plan for partition of India and birth of separate Pakistan became inevitable only after 1946. Paritition itself was done in most atrociously hurried manner leading to great tragedy. Jinnah had no time really to think , he was fighting tooth & nail with Congress , almost single handedly ...
@@dhananjaypatil3116 1) Nehru struggled for Indian independence hence he was directly clashing with British both in India and overseas. Jinnah never did that. All he did was raising communalism within Muslims which I am sure u would agree was far more easier than above. 2) As u must know Nehru led Congress to Huge victory in 1937 elections in which he travelled 80k kms across india while simultaneously creating a vision for india. What was jinnah doing then. 2) during 40s When Nehru and Congress was in jail for 3 yrs Jinnah had a complete free pass with his 2 nation theory and communal politics. It was the best time. Even savarkar had some kind of vision unlike jinnah. I would submit that Pervez is right in his assesment. Jinnah was many things but not a visionary by any means.
@@Raj0520 in 1937 Muslim league was nowhere in Electroral politics & Muslim league had had to suffer humiliating defeat even in muslim majority areas. Imagine transformation within less than 9 years such that Muslim League emerges as spokesperson of Muslims by winning thumping majority in Muslim majority areas - big enough to force the idea of Pakistan. Such transformation within 9 years was not possible without groundwork done by Muslim League led by Jinnah. It will be mistake to think that Jinnah was doing nothing while Nehru was in jail. One can argue that jail allowed Nehru to reflect deeply , write books & develope a coherent vision for India. Nehru was ably supported by a bevy of Congress leaders. I am jist saying that Jinnah was firefighting for idea of pakistan whose birth was not guaranteed unlike India whose continuation as a Nation state successor to British India was given. Jinnah died shortly after Pakistan's independence i.e. within less than 11 months. In contrast Nehru ruled India for 17 long years. Nehru had enough time & support from able leaders like Sardar Patel , Dr Ambedkar , Dr Maulana Abul Qalam Azad etc etc. Jinnah had no time for vision of pakistan even idea of Pakistan was based on flawed ideaology. Comparing Nehru & Jinnah is like comparing Apples to Oranges. They were different leaders with different personas & few similarities. Ehat Jinnah achieved little any other political leader can claim to. It is different that the end result i.e status pakistan today tarnishes that very legacy of Jinnah , having created a new nation state virtually single handedly ( with of course enough help from British ).
@@dhananjaypatil3116 1) Yes Muslim league was nowhere up until 1940 as political party neither was Jinnah anywhere close to being a mass leader. It happened within a short duration of early 40s. And I would attribute that to Congress being inactive , British being busy in ww2 and most importantly Jinnah ramping up communal poison within society which was very unlike what Jinnah's life has been. Plus he had implicit British support to sabotage Congress plans . So I don't think Jinnah achieved anything great. 2) Ur argument being that, just because Jinnah was not sure if Pakistan would be a reality gives him an excuse for not creating a vision doesn't follow. Even bhagat singh had a vision although he knew he wouldn't be alive nor was Indian independence was anywhere near, Up until late 1930s British were talking about being in India till 1970s. When u fight for a cause u need to have a vision about what it will be once it materialises. 3) Nehru being there for 17 yrs doesn't count because Nehru already had a solid vision by mid 1930s. Read lahore resolution, karachi resolution and 1936 resolution. Even if Nehru died within a year everyone would have known what Nehru wanted unlike Jinnah which has left Pakistan in confused state after 75 yrs. 4) Unlike Jinnah who was not challenged by any leader within Muslim league his vision would have been accepted quite easily. Here Nehru was actually was a lone Warrior within congress specially after bose left. His views were very different than Gandhi, Patel was in no way support to Nehrus vision, Ambedkar wasnt a major force. So Nehru had a solid vison even though he was not sure if his vision would materialise given so many challenges within the party still he formulated one for the sake of audacity.
Karan, great interview as always. One point not touched upon is that Indian Muslims enjoyed preference under Mughal Raj and then under English Raj. Muslims did not want to relinquish that preferential status in a one man one vote India where non Muslims will be equal. Jinnah therefore made unreasonable demands on Nehru and threatened the creation of Pakistan if his demands were not met. He never intended to create Pakistan until it was too late and the cat was out of the bag.
Under British Raj??.. and also under Mughals it was only the upper class/caste, the majority muslims consisting of backward classes/castes lives weren't much different from there hindu piers apart from maybe some of the most crude practices of untouchablity.
One man one vote, in such a huge country made up by taking over whole subcontinent, would mean majority community will always make decisions. Minority community would never be able to decide about its own interests. That's not Freedom. It means if majority hindus don't like anything about muslim social life, they could ban it through laws and muslims would never have any chance to oppose it. It means indian muslims would have been made 2nd class slave citizens. Today BJP is doing the same thing. In future, we will see it with more clarity.
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before and after Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
Well said Mr.Hoodbhoy... " There is no way you can have a 7th century ideology to run a 20th century country " ....... I wish politicians of any region or anywhere have this level of thinking.
@@jarjarbinks3193 I actually need to explain that to you? Being fundantalists, the hindutva brigade wants to impose something that is oldern than the 7th century, into the present day. Just like you claim that Muslims want to implment 7th century law, the hindutva brigade wants something that goes back to 2nd Millenium BC.
I have always maintained that jinnah was a lawyer tasked with a job to from Pakistan. He did not have any plan beyond that. He was also not concerned about what form Pakistan was supposed to take.
1. Honesty is not greatest virtue in politics but vision is the most important thing 2. A 80% honest politician with great vision can still save money for himself and also take his country prosper. 3. But a brutal honest politician in the name of ego and personal ambition can destroy country 4. Mr Jinnah personal ambition make him use religion and break ancient india. It was not even ambition but competition with Gandhi and Nehru lead him to do so
Good interview with an honest man. But sad to hear that PakistAn is still struggling to come to terms with its own identity (intended vs reality) leave alone the uncertain future!
Pakistan is not struggling with its identity, Pakistan was created as a home land for Muslims of Sub continent & every child in Pakistan knows this, what happened afterwards is another story. Dr.Hoodbhoy has his own theories which are not at all welcomed in his own country.
Jinnah was a Gujarati! Gandhi was a Gujarati! Sardar Patel was a Gujarati! Modi ji is a Gujarati! Amit Shah is a Gujarati. Among the four who is the real Gujarati? Please be aware Jinnah founded a country! Please comment if you are interestred.
What a wonderful interview. Enjoyed every bit of it. Was a pleasure to listen to an analysis based on facts rather than emotions & hopes which inevitably creep into discussions of politicians past. Hope to see more such. Must buy the book.
Much of this information is available in scholar Nasim Yousaf's books and articles, including the one in the Harvard Asia Quarterly. His revelations came decades ago.
As per Dr.Ishtiaq Ahmed, the 11th Aug speech of Mr.Jinnah was made out of fear to stop total population exchange as he feared that if entire Muslim population of the subcontinent migrates to newly formed Pakistan there will be serious resource crunch.
Jinnah helped India by separating most of the Jihadi population from India. This helped India develop scientifically snd economically. The Two Nation Theory should have been fully implemented by exchanging almost all the population on the basis of religion, since almost 90% of the Muslim voters voted for the partition of India based on religion in the 1946 provincial election.
In my opinion, if Pakistan was a true a Islamic state with values of tolerance and justice we would not have created confusion, divide and violence. Sadly religiosity is facade of politicians/army generals when they want to cover up morality.
I disagree. The concept of a 'true religion' differs from sect to sect, even person to person. When a sect imposes its view of 'true religion' upon others, it becomes a disaster. The only way out is for the state to stay out of the business of religion except when the latter infringes the basic rights of a citizen. Islamic state in whatever 'true' form it is, has been and will be an undiluted disaster for the people. So will be the case of a Christian state, Hindu state, or a Jewish one. Let's get rid of this poison.
There is no confusion in general principles of Islam no matter how many sects you have. Justice and tolerance are those principles that all Muslim leaders are expected to follow as they govern. An active dialogue and disagreement is healthy. If that active dialogue makes you a Hindu and me a muslim, Shia, Sunni, Sikh etc…so be it….Violence in the name of differences is unacceptable.
I lived four years in hill Park opposite to Jinnah house. A superb very huge property saarc meeting too happened. His close friend in school Mohammed came to see Sethna who lives in opposite lane who was his friend too. The Bohra chief. He was a German citizen who stayed with us. He told how Jinnah felt leaving Mumbai. He lived only 1 year in the new house. Itsa sprawling bunglow not kept up by government . Without moving any of his property or assets he left. When mohammad spoke to him while he was in Pakistan after partition was very upset and told him that my anger and irritation to Gandhi, Nehru and how they were dual tongued and hypocrites. How he was responsible for Muslims to ask partition as Ghandhi supported dualism when religion matters appeased hindus over muslim leaders
Perhaps hoodboy should live in India, be utterly unable to even rent a place in Bombay. Have the cops raid his house and steal his refrigerator in Uttar Pradesh under meat laws. And have bakths try to “ghar wapsi” convert him and his children, to low caste Hinduism by force - something bakths say was very immoral when Muslims somehow did this (they claim). I feel very blessed that my grandparents emigrated from Kashmir to Lahore before partition. We would’ve faced internet blackouts, pellet shots in the eyes, all the joys of democracy that India delivers for minorities, be they Muslim, Sikh or Daleet.
Jinnah was up against not only the brains and wealth of 800 million Hindus.... But he was also up against the entire British Empire elite and their interests aswell. When Pakistan came into being he DECLINED Mount batten request to be Governor of Pakistan like he did with India. Indeed if you read the memoirs of Mountbatten you will find he found Jinnah to be his most difficult customer. Food for thought.
You cannot blame Jinnah. He was a very democratic leader. We cannot blame a father who bought his son a new car and the son crashed it and destroyed. Pervez hodaybyoy is a biased analyst.
Before the partition, 90% of Muslims voted for the partition and 90% of Hindus voted against the partition. However, most Hindus are now thankful to Jinnah for the partition, which removed most of the Jihadi population from India.
Mr.Hoodbhoy is an intelligent person and I have heard him alot on U-tube in Pakistani debates.But the problem with Pakistani intelligensia is, they are rarely factual about the condition of Indian muslims. They keep on crying over the treatments being meted out to muslims in India forgetting the facts that population of muslims in India have increased manifold where as Hindus in Pakistan have DE-creased drastically from 21'/' to 2'/'.everyday you keep on hearing horror stories of and about Pakistani Hindus,in the same breath You can see how muslims of India even after their involvement in many atrocious incidents here, are living with ease! In fact many muslims are contributing in the progress of India.But in Pakistan no non-muslims are allowed to hold key posts in governance of the country.Even they are discriminated in common life too. So,comparing the condition of Hindus(non-muslims) of pakistan and muslims (non-Hindus) of India are ridiculous,exactly opposite to each other in nature, and Hoodbhoy in no different a Pakistani,he always has been that way about Indian muslims.He keeps on expressing his displeasure over the condition of Indian muslims.He needs to come and stay in India,at least for one year to know the facts. Otherwise it was good interview!
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
Islamic state can not be democratic. Both are contradictory. About India, the more we become Sanathani, the better democratic we can become. Hope, Mr. Hood boy undetstands it.
I regularly read Hoodbhoy's article in Dawn.... His unbiased perspective and sophisticated language teach me a lot. He personally is very humble man. I met him at Human Rights Commission Office Lahore. He still has keypad phone and was talking to everyone politely even with youngesters like us....
I like him a lot
Most surprisingly, both Jinnah and Gandhiji didn't have a very specific economic vision for their respective nations. Gandhiji, off course dwelt on Swadeshi and rural economy, but that was not an integrated and wholistic view of the economy. Both died immediately after independence. But India had Nehru as a true visionary, but Pakistan had none. India also had a course correction in 1991, as Nehru's vision had become outdated. For Pakistan, forget Jinnah, no one after him had any economic vision. That is why Pakistan is in dire state today and it's economy has plunged deep into anarchy and bankruptcy.
the reason is simple. Gandhi never identified himself as a politician, so there was no need for him to device an economic/foreign policy.
@@nitishsaxena1372 true
dude you need to understand swadeshi moment which is nothing but AthmaNirbar all you need to do put a slight pressure on your brain. During Gandhi time 90% of Indians pressing issue was roti-kapada-Makhan. They were slaves to local zamindar who took order from local Raj who were proxy for British. Gandhi broke this mould and gave hope and voice to poor but majority of Indian population. This was a direct threat to Raj/Nawabs/zamindars and British. Jinnah was creation of this threat he was funded by All India muslim league which was group of Nawabs and zamindars. Remember the biggest looser of Indian independence was these Nawabs/Maharajas who were living in their fairytale palaces. I am sure there will be one near your place take a look that magnificent palaces their life style and think who were real slaves and who were real rulers.
As a pakistani I say this: Given the condition of Indian muslims under the fascist regime today and what it was during Jinnah's era only proves Jinnah had been a visionary. He was able to envisage that a day like this would come for muslims living in India. Muslims who have left for Pakistan have safegaurded their lives, property and dignity but once after forming the country the Pakistanis have ruined it, one aft another, worst corrupted people have been ruling it , not to mention the menace of violence and terrorism in the name of j!had,a all due to their stupid wrongful interpretation of their own religion has put Pakistan in a worst state while in India there were great leaders like Nehru's and the Gandhi's which has made India progress and now due to the current leaders , you are just coming our way buddies.
@@nafisasumayya9168 Thanks to Jinnah he divided Muslims of subcontinent into three countries. Jinnah was hired lawyer by Nawabs to safe safeguard their lands in Punjab and bengal. He served them really well as their grand kids, zaradari's,bhutto's shariff's and other elites enjoy Pakistan. Jinnah also served his British masters, UK and later USA has complete control on Pakistan and its army. Imran Khan had the same dillisuion that some how Pakistan can make it;s decision he is now rotting in his own Jail. Imagine u cricket hero, former PM rotting in Jail and you are worried about Indian Muslims. We can give example of thousands of successful Muslim in fascist government. Please name one non Muslim in Pakistan who holds a highest office.
I am from Pakistan and I always have a huge respect for Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy. Very clear headed man. Wonderful interview
Confused man; rants like Hasan Nisar, except in better English. He should stick to his physics toy set.
@@Arabic4Qyou being an intellectually challenged person, it doesn’t matter what you think about him. I don’t agree to lots of his assertions on variety of subject but on Jinnah equation he is right on the mark.
@@snh4753Dr ishtiaq ka chapega toh sahi hoga hi. He's subpar at best.
Liar
Nothing Hoodbhoy said about Jinnah was secret. Even Jinnah would say that he was not a devout Muslim, so? The question is whether Jinnah's 'conversion' was authentic or not? We believe it was. He remained angry at his daughter for marrying a Parsi (not allowed in Islamic law) until death, and did not speak to her even on his death bed. He did what he did for the Muslims what he thought was best. His sincerity convinced millions - even if his Urdu couldn't. It is for God to judge his heart, not for a scumbag like Hoodbhoy - jo na teen main, na tera main.
Thanks
Real people real debate! ‘The Wire’ is class.
As Indians we cant be more grateful to Jawaharlal Nehru.
He had a comprehensive vision for India that he developed throughout 1930s and 40s.
His belief in democracy and secularism more than any leader of his time created a democratic state while majority of new born countries all around were turning autocratic.
Plus his overarching political power ensured military was subservient to politcal class.
We as a nation cant be nore grateful and also be careful not to take freedom for granted.
Be careful!
Whi was visionery at that time ?
@@dilippatwa6574 That's a tough one to answer. With hindsight, especially after 75 years, many have developed a perfect 20-20 vision.
@@Dogmatix-24 ?
@@Raj0520 These days just be careful of whom you praise and who you criticise.
Brilliant interview! Thank you Karan!
Karan is cut above the rest . Love the guy
I'm an Indian, a BJP supporter and what you would might call a 'Bhakt'.
Having said that, I am the biggest fan of Professor Parvez Hoodboy. I have followed him closely for many years now and feel that both, India and Pakistan need more people like him.
He has a positive impact on society and I always listen to his talks/interviews a lot. #Respect
I envy Pakistan for having produced such a man
He multiple time tagged modi as fascist hindutva leader... you're ok with that .
He likes hoodbhoy because he criticizes Pakistan and rightly so. but if someone does the same in India, our bhakt brother would label him a deshdrohi and ask him to go to Hoodbhoys country!
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person.
He is a good man but quite unfamiliar with Indian traditions.
@@Abir-o8qyes we are ok with that if he target any Indian leaders. If he target Hindus then we will have problem with him. Some time we also thinks very bad words for our father.
Two brilliant intelectual... Salaam Respect and Nameste to Hosts Guests and viewers.
Thanks!
Ambedkar was a real visionary. His social political economic and scientific acumen keeps steering the country from everything even today.
I fully agree with you, Sir 🙏
Nope he has his biases too.
@@AyushKumar-fo5yu He didn't. He worked for all the citizens of the country, women and the downtrodden classes all at the same time.
We should follow Ambedkar strictly. According to Ambedkar complete papulation exchange is the only solution and so papulation exchange should be done immediately.
Ambedakar said muslim Brotherhood is for islaam only not for others
Jinnah was the lawyer of feudal class who wanted to protect their feudal privileges post british exit. This seems to be the most rational explanation based on documents, speeches, events that happened post independence and it also explains other anamolies like his flirtation with hindu princes etc.
Well, maybe just read up on him. Jinnah belonged to an Ismaili Gujrati banya community. Certainly not from big land owning feudal family, also he was a second generation convert meaning his grand parents were hindus. So certainly not from an aristocratic background with a long lineage. Whether you like him or not is an other issue. But that's his background..
Well, lawyers at that time were typically products of upper class, anglicized upbringing - and let's not forget India was then entirely a feudal country.
You have nailed it correctly. This point is never discussed. There is an interview of Nehru that elaborates this point.
As a pakistani I say this: Given the condition of Indian muslims under the fascist regime today and what it was during Jinnah's era only proves Jinnah had been a visionary. He was able to envisage that a day like this would come for muslims living in India. Muslims who have left for Pakistan have safegaurded their lives, property and dignity but once after forming the country the Pakistanis have ruined it, one aft another, worst corrupted people have been ruling it , not to mention the menace of violence and terrorism in the name of j!had,a all due to their stupid wrongful interpretation of their own religion has put Pakistan in a worst state while in India there were great leaders like Nehru's and the Gandhi's which has made India progress and now due to the current leaders , you are just coming our way buddies.
@@nafisasumayya9168even though the current hindutva bjp government possesses a discrimination towards Muslims in India they can implement it in the bjp controlled 'Hindi - Heartland states' of Northern India but cannot be implemented whole across the country as india has a federal structure, each state has it's own cultures and cuisines and language that it hold. One such example is Kerala the bjp can't infuse their divisive rhetoric on us, I'm from Kerala and Muslims are undoubtedly the safest here in Kerala. Islam has been a part of Kerala's since the prophets time due to trading before Pakistan and North India heard about Islam
The Hindutva BJP holds power in the centre because of 38% of the electoral vote and mind you not even 50% of the Hindu population voted for Bjp and modi in 2019(only about 44.56% the rest 55% voted for the opposition) so this narrative that every Hindu votes for bjp is nonsense. The opposition is more United this time they can be defeated in the next election and the discrimination could be ended
Prof. Hoodbhoy is a true intellectual and a down to earth person.
I had sent him a casual email with some questions/suggestions a few years back and I was surprised that he took the time to read thro my email and send a constructive response!
After so many years a person is saying the correct things about mr jinnah
It is new to you. He is telling from decades.
huge respect for dr pervez , i love the black hole
Why would you love black hole? What pervez had to do with it. Don't you think the entity that created Black hole is of prime importance!
@@MrExplorer831 bro listen me out first, pervez hoodbhoy has created a forum called The Black Hole in Islamabad for inculcating scientific temperament in children and youth, basically the next generation of Pakistan. He named it black hole because he doesn't know whether all his effort will come to any fruition or will go to waste, just like nobody knows what's happening with matter that gets sucked in by the black holes.
Hehe
You really didn't need to get so religious all of sudden.
Nehru was THE reason India turned out to be such a successful nation, while most people expected a diverse nation of India's scale to disintegrate
Karan Thappar and Hoodhbhoy misses the central point. British wanted a footprint in South Asia and prevent Russia from reaching warm waters. Independent India won’t accept foreign troop base in the country hence Pakistan was created. Jinnah was following British diktat. The creation of Pakistan was inevitable consequence of British policy of divide and rule.
Well what British wanted is one thing. But it could only bear fruit because the Muslim had a sense of deprivation, which could partially be also seen in data in terms of their economic, educational, social standing. But then questioning ones historical political narrative is difficult... to close to comfort, also because all those fault lines persist to date..
100 percent creation of Pakistan was Karachi port because USA and British worried about Nehru would give Karachi port to USSR therefore USA push to divide indis
The country, India was divided for the past several centuries once Muslim rulers took over. Muslim rulers took the advantage of a country already divided by cast and languages. Two infighting religions were at dragger drawn to each other and they were Hindus and Buddhists. New Muslim rulers took the advantage of divided and fractionated India to establish their draconian rules. Because of that Muslim rules, Hindus were in fighting mode with the Muslim rulers and the British took the advantage and established another exploitation cycle. Some conservative Hindus cooperated with British to dislodge the Muslim rulers from the power corridor. See, the subcontinent was never an united place. In fact, the current India is more united than ever before because of its democratic constitution. So the BJP Govt should make sure that democracy persists and religions do not come in running the country.
@@f0815Hi-cd1towell British India was ruled by Englishman you can't blame Hindus for depriving muslims
Perfect. This has been summed up in Mountbatten's diaries; and those sly and treacherous British snakes still refuse to make the contents of the diary public.
Difference in India & Pakistan at that time was-
India has always a backup of vision and leaders but for Pakistan it was not the case.
And death of Jinnah and un natural death of Liaqat Ali Khan ensured long era of chaos and uncertainty for Pakistan which we still suffer from.
@@salmansyed6206 liaquat ali khan messed up by making islam the be all and end all for pakistan constitution
Much of this information is available in scholar Nasim Yousaf's books and articles, including the one in the Harvard Asia Quarterly. His revelations came decades ago.
@@soorej-k2n But his death had other reasons.....At least we had a strong leader which was removed by "unknown" hands we can guess almost. Atleast Pakistan had the chance of establishing some democratic institutions, had the chance to strengthen some democratic norms which require decades. Lost too early.
@@soorej-k2n that is not the reason for any of this. Islam is our religion but when relogion is used to keep a nation hijacked, that's where it all got messed up.
We support indipendent reporting
Great interview 👍 an eye opening for Indians in 2023/24 now
Pervez Hoodbhoy is the real gem of whole South Asia. His you tube channel is like a light house in the sea of darkness.
Looking back, Nehru deserves our gratitude for being a great visionary in shaping India's destiny. If Jinnah was a curse for Pakistan, Nehru was a blessing for India. History is etched not written.
Jinnah was never a curse for Pakistan. What you say is your state narrative.
Jinnah died 1 year after creation of Pakistan. He could not have enough time to shape Pakistan after its creation.
But he was a visionary leader.
@@Wanderer975Jinnah never explained his vision. If he had one he could have talked about it or even write about it so that later generations can struggle to get it done. That’s how great leaders do. He said many conflicting things at many times that too vaguely.
Yeah I can see India's destiny where every citizen of it wants to leave it at the first opportunity😂😂
@@blindwatchmaker3650whatever you may think , it will be a reality that by the end of this decade Bharat will be among the top 3 economies of the world
Allowing religion to dominate politics and policies is surly a curse!
"Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three. "
R.I.P great Man ❤
One another man helped him perhaps more than his own efforts -- You might be knowing who I am referring to ..
Indira Gandhi did it by making Bangladesh
RIP great women ❤
I guess you are quoting Stanley Wolpert from UCLA , California who wrote this in his book, "JINNAH"
@@Aayushman_Yen we were , are and will always be brothers in faith, Political incidents couldn't and can't take away our love for Bengali Muslims, even our love for Indian Muslims is the same who are forced to hate Pakistan bcz of Bhajpa's Hindutva policies
Israel?
Brilliant guys at work. Beyond all doubt. Dr. Hoodbhoy`s regular articles in The Dawn is a must read for me. The language used is absolutely mesmerising. This Dr. is the only rare one who is unbiased in India-Pakistan relationship. Thank you very much to Karan and Dr. A wonderful interview indeed.
It is interesting you used the word 'biased'. They are scholars... they probe multiple opinions and viewpoints and shape their own view. They are not politicians or common masses. That is why you felt....
Clearly Mr. Thaper is biased in his discourse as he specilly tries to esblish that jinnah was a nonvisionary leader.
Nehru, sardar and others were visionaries, but we are confused at the moment. Isn't it?
I fully agree with you, Sir 🙏
We are not confused. We have rejected their vision, and gave embraced a communal bigoted hindutva vision.
@@HumanBeing-jj3mc this is in response to Islamist.
We had never embraced gandhi and Nehru's vision.
their vision was imposed in indian hindu mind
Had they been visionaries, they would have done full population exchange. if that happened there would be no Hindutva. After decades of suffering from islamic terorism people donot believe in your type of secularism
Thanks for proving that you are confused.
Kudos for having Pervez H. for the interview. He's an accomplished physicist, devout educationist, a great intellectual of his time, and importantly not afraid to call a spade a spade. He could be a potential Nobel laureate from Pakistan!
I’m sure Prof. Hoodbhoy would be much happier if his vision for Pakistan were adopted by more people in his country and resulted in positive change than if he won the Nobel.
Nobel prize for what ?
Many thanks to the Professor. I read The Dawn only for the column by him.
Brilliant interview Karan
The only problem of Two Nation Theory was that it was not implemented completely in India.
😂😂😂
India would not have any of its myriad problems if it were totally Muslimless.
@abdullahbinusman8916 Not Khalistani movement lol😂, Khalistani movement is run by ISI . Don't act ffs.
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
Amazed that a Pakistani can be critical of Jinnah in Pakistan and talk freely about it. Pakistan seems to be a more tolerant society today than India
Hindus should be as tolerant as Musalman. India should be as secular as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Musalman should be treated in India as Musalman treat with others in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and even in Kashmir.
Really? when indians are critical of Gandhi, you people complain.
@@psychologicalbosscan you be critical of Modi? Will you still be alive after you have done that?
When we talk about Nehru n gandhi in India Congress govt sent to jail just because people said against Nehru gandhi is this the freedom of speech
Best analysis in all😊
Wonderful interview ❤
Much love from Peshawar 🇵🇰
Perver H is an impressive intellectual and personality that Pakistan has produced. Salute to this man of substance.
As an Indian i have always felt that the world has lot to learn from Professor Parvez Hoodboy. Sharp mind who thinks through things. I hope the Indians especially in India read his book and realize how important his advise was in the last part of the interview. India is now at a cross road and i mean that literally. If we take the path of majoritarianism we as a nation are going to go down a very dark dangerous path. I hope India realizes this and wakes up.
Absolutely agree.
lol bro just because you grew up At 2023 doesn't mean everything was rose mary when u were Child .
India is diverse and lot diverse than u can imagine .
Hindus uniting is one thing & discrimination on mass level as Told by all these pakis & left eco is another.
Yes we were doing genocide in 2019 with Caa /nrc and all Muslim would be expelled out..Have you seen that happening.
It appears from this discussions that jinna was a man with eggo and power grabber became popular the then time amongst the poor and illeterate Muslims.jinna basically gave sweet dreams to Muslims by dividing lndia and created a Muslim state for nothing
It is quite evident now how
better is Pakistan.
To mix metaphors, we are not only at a crossroads but on the brink of an abyss. If we continue on the majoritarian route now there will be no chance of returning to sanity.
Not a wise advise by the way.
Change at heart is needed by Pakistani think tank. You can't leed a country on the basis of RELIGION. It's very personal.
One of the most educated and well informed guest on your show dr karan, i congratulate you for inviting dr hoodbhoy "very informative "👍 👏 👌
Dr Hoodboy is a genuine and highly literate Pakistani.I respect him very much and follow his Programme i.e. Black Hole regularly
The program deserves a lot bigger following. Sadly shows the intellect and priorities of the population of Pakistan.
Your interviews are very enjoyable because you do not appear to follow an agenda. A lot of respect for you Sir!
When you create a country on basis of religion, you would be fool enough to believe that it is going to be a secular country.
Rationality is one 🌺 that smells sweet wherever it BLOOMS.
Enlightening discussion.
Karan, Thanks so much to have Parveiz Sir on this show
Thanks SIR
Hahahaha Bakts Khalistan Jindabad
@@Babasasa111🤡
Dr Hoodbhoy is a great intellectual who is not only inspirational for Pakistani society but for actually the whole world ... I am neither an Indian nor a Pakistani but I love Mr Hoodbhoy for his extraordinary intellectual height...
What intellectual height? If intellectual capability is so you care about, learn from subject matter experts like for jinnah there is dr Ishtiaq ahmed and dr Aisha Jalal. If you are looking for physics there are a thousand better people than him.
''When one's accidental upbringing becomes the touchstone of reason''- great words
Sounds like Nehru and his (fake)Gandhi descendents
This is a great eye opener and an educational episode. Thanks, Karan ji.
Informative, enlightening, enjoyable.
According to mr Jinnah's daughter, their relationship improved and Mr Jinnah did meet his Grandson, even gave him his cap.
What his grandson doing in Mumbai?
@@SubhashishBagchi He's dead now. His son runs the Wadia group today. Also, He was one of the earliest sponsors of BJP.
My admiration, Karan Thapar. You Interview with the aim to explore without prejudice some of the best. Long may interview without prejudice - one intelligent human and another. Thank you.
Excellent interview. Much enjoyed it.
Thoughtful analysis in light of prevalent circumstances.
Excellent interview because of both of the participants 👍
Direct Action Day was his depiction of love towards Hindus.
They conveniently ignore their atrocities 😊 which is nothing but hypocritical
PPakistanis and Indians are descendent of the same parent. Why fighting each other? Let these two brother live as good neighborliness.
Politicians will.nvr allow
I just loved the line by Pervez Sir India should not repeat the same mistake ; I hope Indian will not let this happen like we come out of Emergency , Politician comes and go but most likely diversity of India will keep on flourishing .
And what was it? As per him, Hindus must be ruled by moslems.
How by reducing Hindu population from 84% to 78% and increasing Muslim population and Christian population?
@@Victor-y9g1wjai shree Ram 🚩🚩🚩
More than the emergency it is theocracy the current dispensation so proud off.
India can never go the Pakistan way, Hinduism is such a plural religion, assimilating so many diverse thoughts that we can never be like them. Religion will make us good human beings. Jai Shri Ram!
Why Jinnah? Any Muslim is a visionary and clear to the extent that hindus and Muslims are two separate nations. Only point of difference is Karan has no issue with Muslims saying that.
Thanks Karan.
Jinnah played a role of a Father, he worked hard and alone to build a house for his children. Now we should be discussing how his children treated his house. And we should ask a question to ourselves that can we do a greater job than Jinnah?
When you build a home by breaking other’s home, I don’t think that is a role of a father.
Beautiful and respectful remarks by you, for jinnah efforts for nation and his family...
Human societies don't work according to your philosophy. They work on British naturalist Charles Darwin's term, survival of the fittest. You must read and understand the history of North America (United States of America and Canada),
Thanks.
What happened to the east Pakistan a part of your new home? You break another house and your own people breaks your own home that’s called Karma !
Jinnah did not solicit leadership of Muslim League. He had resigned from congress and ML in disgust, left india and settled in UK. Iqbal, Liaqat Ali and five prominent members of ML invited him back. It took them three years of pleading to bring him back and pick up the reigns of ML.
Jinnah was given a task of forming Pakistan, (it was first Iqbal’s idea not Jinnah), being attorney he accepted it as a legal case and won. Why blame him for anything? In fact he should be applauded for his professionalism, he took on the might of British Empire, Congress, princely states, various other Muslim parties, muslim clerics etc etc and still came out victorious.
Whether partition was good or bad is a dead horse argument. It’s a fact. Deal with it. If still not happy accede to Pakistan and you can have united subcontinent.
The video of a man, woman and two children purportedly held hostage by Hamas militants is being widely shared on social media. The two children can be seen sobbing for “their sister”, who cannot be seen in the video, while the adults are trying to console them. A person, most likely their captor, shouts: “Relax, relax, she went to heaven.”
Link???
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
@@ehaaronboth parties are right in their logical thinking. That's why fighting going on but left liberals and Marxist have history changes like fox and abandon their common camrades.
Huge respect for professor
Pay tribute to Pakistani society
A Wise Man Once Said: History Speaks to the Future, Not the Past. What a leader eats or wears matters less than what he accomplishes. Focus on the enduring impact, not the trivial details; A leader's actions are shaped by the moment, not by hindsight. Understand the constraints before casting judgment. In endless debates about the past, we lose the chance to shape tomorrow. Let history be a compass, not an anchor.True analysis comes with understanding, not condemnation. Approach history with respect, for it is the foundation of present and future wisdom.
Jinnah's all energy was spent in garnering support for & creating Pakistan. He had no time to create vision for Pakistan. He was dying as Pakistan was being born. It is here that he diverges from Nehru who had a deep vision for India. Jinnah had no time really. He was firefighting from the word "Go". Though he managed to carve out a separate nation , he had to settle with a lesser / minor state. He had superiority complex vis a vis Nehru that he could never outgrow. He was constrained in more than one ways including in intellectual terms as compared to Nehru.
With respect I would like disagree with the half half of ur comment.
Unlike Nehru who was far more busy with political struggle and spending years in jail, Jinnah never went to jail neither he struggled for freedom post 1920s. He had all the time in the world to prepare a vision. But he didn't for some reason.
@@Raj0520
Though idea for Pakistan was first put forth in 1933 , Jinnah got drawn into Muslim league politics after 1935 & demand for Pakistan became strident only after 1937 elections in which Muslim league recieved humiliating defeat even in muslim majority areas. Jinnah was then got consumed in need to push for & convince muslims regarding Pakistan. Even then future of Pakistan was not given. Britain & India were then drawn into WWII Partition became inevitable after 1946 elections during which Muslim league won majority of seats in Muslim dominated areas. In matter of 10 years Jinnah managed to build significant ground support for Pakistan. Unlike Nehru who had support of galaxy of national leaders , Jinnah was leading Muslim league politics single handedly. He was neck deep in issue of creating pakistan such that he had little time to think about future of pakistan. Those were the tumultous years. Actually Jinnah was open for loose union of two autonomous dominions - one India & one pakistan ( East & West ) . Congress rejected such plan because weak union would have meant eventual balkanisation of India. Plan for partition of India and birth of separate Pakistan became inevitable only after 1946. Paritition itself was done in most atrociously hurried manner leading to great tragedy. Jinnah had no time really to think , he was fighting tooth & nail with Congress , almost single handedly ...
@@dhananjaypatil3116 1) Nehru struggled for Indian independence hence he was directly clashing with British both in India and overseas. Jinnah never did that. All he did was raising communalism within Muslims which I am sure u would agree was far more easier than above.
2) As u must know Nehru led Congress to Huge victory in 1937 elections in which he travelled 80k kms across india while simultaneously creating a vision for india. What was jinnah doing then.
2) during 40s When Nehru and Congress was in jail for 3 yrs Jinnah had a complete free pass with his 2 nation theory and communal politics. It was the best time. Even savarkar had some kind of vision unlike jinnah.
I would submit that Pervez is right in his assesment. Jinnah was many things but not a visionary by any means.
@@Raj0520
in 1937 Muslim league was nowhere in Electroral politics & Muslim league had had to suffer humiliating defeat even in muslim majority areas. Imagine transformation within less than 9 years such that Muslim League emerges as spokesperson of Muslims by winning thumping majority in Muslim majority areas - big enough to force the idea of Pakistan. Such transformation within 9 years was not possible without groundwork done by Muslim League led by Jinnah. It will be mistake to think that Jinnah was doing nothing while Nehru was in jail. One can argue that jail allowed Nehru to reflect deeply , write books & develope a coherent vision for India. Nehru was ably supported by a bevy of Congress leaders. I am jist saying that Jinnah was firefighting for idea of pakistan whose birth was not guaranteed unlike India whose continuation as a Nation state successor to British India was given. Jinnah died shortly after Pakistan's independence i.e. within less than 11 months. In contrast Nehru ruled India for 17 long years. Nehru had enough time & support from able leaders like Sardar Patel , Dr Ambedkar , Dr Maulana Abul Qalam Azad etc etc.
Jinnah had no time for vision of pakistan even idea of Pakistan was based on flawed ideaology. Comparing Nehru & Jinnah is like comparing Apples to Oranges. They were different leaders with different personas & few similarities. Ehat Jinnah achieved little any other political leader can claim to. It is different that the end result i.e status pakistan today tarnishes that very legacy of Jinnah , having created a new nation state virtually single handedly ( with of course enough help from British ).
@@dhananjaypatil3116 1) Yes Muslim league was nowhere up until 1940 as political party neither was Jinnah anywhere close to being a mass leader. It happened within a short duration of early 40s. And I would attribute that to Congress being inactive , British being busy in ww2 and most importantly Jinnah ramping up communal poison within society which was very unlike what Jinnah's life has been. Plus he had implicit British support to sabotage Congress plans . So I don't think Jinnah achieved anything great.
2) Ur argument being that, just because Jinnah was not sure if Pakistan would be a reality gives him an excuse for not creating a vision doesn't follow. Even bhagat singh had a vision although he knew he wouldn't be alive nor was Indian independence was anywhere near, Up until late 1930s British were talking about being in India till 1970s.
When u fight for a cause u need to have a vision about what it will be once it materialises.
3) Nehru being there for 17 yrs doesn't count because Nehru already had a solid vision by mid 1930s. Read lahore resolution, karachi resolution and 1936 resolution. Even if Nehru died within a year everyone would have known what Nehru wanted unlike Jinnah which has left Pakistan in confused state after 75 yrs.
4) Unlike Jinnah who was not challenged by any leader within Muslim league his vision would have been accepted quite easily.
Here Nehru was actually was a lone Warrior within congress specially after bose left. His views were very different than Gandhi, Patel was in no way support to Nehrus vision, Ambedkar wasnt a major force.
So Nehru had a solid vison even though he was not sure if his vision would materialise given so many challenges within the party still he formulated one for the sake of audacity.
Mr.Hoodbhoy is super polite and extremely well spoken- great interview. thanks
Karan, great interview as always. One point not touched upon is that Indian Muslims enjoyed preference under Mughal Raj and then under English Raj. Muslims did not want to relinquish that preferential status in a one man one vote India where non Muslims will be equal. Jinnah therefore made unreasonable demands on Nehru and threatened the creation of Pakistan if his demands were not met. He never intended to create Pakistan until it was too late and the cat was out of the bag.
Under British Raj??.. and also under Mughals it was only the upper class/caste, the majority muslims consisting of backward classes/castes lives weren't much different from there hindu piers apart from maybe some of the most crude practices of untouchablity.
Lol😂
Your knowledge about history is very weak.
During British Raaj, hindus got preferential status, while muslims were seem suspiciously.
One man one vote, in such a huge country made up by taking over whole subcontinent, would mean majority community will always make decisions. Minority community would never be able to decide about its own interests.
That's not Freedom.
It means if majority hindus don't like anything about muslim social life, they could ban it through laws and muslims would never have any chance to oppose it.
It means indian muslims would have been made 2nd class slave citizens.
Today BJP is doing the same thing.
In future, we will see it with more clarity.
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before and after Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
Whatever you say we exist today because of our Great Leader Jinnah
Mr. Jinnah cannot come to take Pakistan forward. Pakistanis need to save their people from poverty and Islamic fanaticism.
Outstanding .
pervez hoodbhoy is one of those person i listen and read, for me he is not a citizen of enemy nation but a citizen of the the earth
Well said Mr.Hoodbhoy... " There is no way you can have a 7th century ideology to run a 20th century country " .......
I wish politicians of any region or anywhere have this level of thinking.
Yup Muslims want 7th century law and RSS BJP want 4th century BC law, even 2000+ oldern than the Muslims.
@@優さん-n7m Pray explain what 4th-century law RSS is asking for?!
True but...
Same goes for Hindutva.
@@jarjarbinks3193
I actually need to explain that to you?
Being fundantalists, the hindutva brigade wants to impose something that is oldern than the 7th century, into the present day.
Just like you claim that Muslims want to implment 7th century law, the hindutva brigade wants something that goes back to 2nd Millenium BC.
Democracy is 2500 years old and was invented in Athens. Why are we running our society according to a 2500 year old form of governence?
I have always maintained that jinnah was a lawyer tasked with a job to from Pakistan. He did not have any plan beyond that. He was also not concerned about what form Pakistan was supposed to take.
1. Honesty is not greatest virtue in politics but vision is the most important thing
2. A 80% honest politician with great vision can still save money for himself and also take his country prosper.
3. But a brutal honest politician in the name of ego and personal ambition can destroy country
4. Mr Jinnah personal ambition make him use religion and break ancient india. It was not even ambition but competition with Gandhi and Nehru lead him to do so
Honest politicians are often a disaster.
Absolutely brilliant 💯. Such a learned guest. Every word Prof. Hoodbhoy utters is a gem.
Good interview with an honest man. But sad to hear that PakistAn is still struggling to come to terms with its own identity (intended vs reality) leave alone the uncertain future!
Same is happening to India, it is now discussing its own name, ideology and place in the world.
Pakistan is not struggling with its identity, Pakistan was created as a home land for Muslims of Sub continent & every child in Pakistan knows this, what happened afterwards is another story.
Dr.Hoodbhoy has his own theories which are not at all welcomed in his own country.
Great conversation 😊
Jinnah was a Gujarati! Gandhi was a Gujarati! Sardar Patel was a Gujarati! Modi ji is a Gujarati! Amit Shah is a Gujarati.
Among the four who is the real Gujarati? Please be aware Jinnah founded a country! Please comment if you are interestred.
He was a Khoja Gujarati, an Ismaili. A sect that originated in west and central asia
og gujarati is adani, take it or leave it
@@hammadqureshi1763 - Hi sgrandfather was Poonja Gokuldas Meghji - a Hindu. Did you know that - so not exactly west Asia.
Very true! Interesting fact.@@adityabanerjee7145
Great interview!
What a wonderful interview. Enjoyed every bit of it. Was a pleasure to listen to an analysis based on facts rather than emotions & hopes which inevitably creep into discussions of politicians past. Hope to see more such. Must buy the book.
Much of this information is available in scholar Nasim Yousaf's books and articles, including the one in the Harvard Asia Quarterly. His revelations came decades ago.
Whatever the history, Pakistan is a big reality now.
And muslims wanted their own country.
Arguing these things does more harm than good now.
I love Karan’s work and hate his opinions !
And this was a classic work !
Hoodhbhoy was great - a book yo buy !
As per Dr.Ishtiaq Ahmed, the 11th Aug speech of Mr.Jinnah was made out of fear to stop total population exchange as he feared that if entire Muslim population of the subcontinent migrates to newly formed Pakistan there will be serious resource crunch.
Two legends. Awesome episode.
The black hole talk was amazing ❤❤❤❤
Jinnah helped India by separating most of the Jihadi population from India. This helped India develop scientifically snd economically. The Two Nation Theory should have been fully implemented by exchanging almost all the population on the basis of religion, since almost 90% of the Muslim voters voted for the partition of India based on religion in the 1946 provincial election.
He never needed a Vision or ideals as he found exploiting his religion was the easiest route to stardom
He didn’t have a religion
A brilliant person whose views are a treat to read. Dr. Hoodbhoy's program, The Black Hole is something worth viewing on TH-cam.
In my opinion, if Pakistan was a true a Islamic state with values of tolerance and justice we would not have created confusion, divide and violence. Sadly religiosity is facade of politicians/army generals when they want to cover up morality.
Well said.
I disagree. The concept of a 'true religion' differs from sect to sect, even person to person. When a sect imposes its view of 'true religion' upon others, it becomes a disaster. The only way out is for the state to stay out of the business of religion except when the latter infringes the basic rights of a citizen. Islamic state in whatever 'true' form it is, has been and will be an undiluted disaster for the people. So will be the case of a Christian state, Hindu state, or a Jewish one. Let's get rid of this poison.
There is no confusion in general principles of Islam no matter how many sects you have. Justice and tolerance are those principles that all Muslim leaders are expected to follow as they govern. An active dialogue and disagreement is healthy. If that active dialogue makes you a Hindu and me a muslim, Shia, Sunni, Sikh etc…so be it….Violence in the name of differences is unacceptable.
@adolft_official don’t teach me my religion
There is Islamic state it’s something created by Muslim brotherhood reaction to collapse of the Ottoman Empire who secular Muslim empire
Came across this Interview and somehow I just sat and watched the entire thing, really liked it, simple, factual and very correct
Excellent interview.
Dr Hoodboy is a special mind. Wish he would grace other mainstream Indian media networks with his presence. He deserves wider viewership in India.
I lived four years in hill Park opposite to Jinnah house. A superb very huge property saarc meeting too happened. His close friend in school Mohammed came to see Sethna who lives in opposite lane who was his friend too. The Bohra chief. He was a German citizen who stayed with us. He told how Jinnah felt leaving Mumbai. He lived only 1 year in the new house. Itsa sprawling bunglow not kept up by government . Without moving any of his property or assets he left. When mohammad spoke to him while he was in Pakistan after partition was very upset and told him that my anger and irritation to Gandhi, Nehru and how they were dual tongued and hypocrites. How he was responsible for Muslims to ask partition as Ghandhi supported dualism when religion matters appeased hindus over muslim leaders
you didn't wash his utensils?
Very interesting topic about the creation of Pakistan. Nice conversation of Karan Thapar and pervez Hoodbhoy.
Two best minds
Jinnah got very little time. He died in 1948.
A great interview
Perhaps hoodboy should live in India, be utterly unable to even rent a place in Bombay. Have the cops raid his house and steal his refrigerator in Uttar Pradesh under meat laws.
And have bakths try to “ghar wapsi” convert him and his children, to low caste Hinduism by force - something bakths say was very immoral when Muslims somehow did this (they claim).
I feel very blessed that my grandparents emigrated from Kashmir to Lahore before partition. We would’ve faced internet blackouts, pellet shots in the eyes, all the joys of democracy that India delivers for minorities, be they Muslim, Sikh or Daleet.
Jinnah was up against not only the brains and wealth of 800 million Hindus.... But he was also up against the entire British Empire elite and their interests aswell.
When Pakistan came into being he DECLINED Mount batten request to be Governor of Pakistan like he did with India.
Indeed if you read the memoirs of Mountbatten you will find he found Jinnah to be his most difficult customer.
Food for thought.
India only have 350 million population at that time
You cannot blame Jinnah. He was a very democratic leader. We cannot blame a father who bought his son a new car and the son crashed it and destroyed. Pervez hodaybyoy is a biased analyst.
Before the partition, 90% of Muslims voted for the partition and 90% of Hindus voted against the partition. However, most Hindus are now thankful to Jinnah for the partition, which removed most of the Jihadi population from India.
Mr.Hoodbhoy is an intelligent person and I have heard him alot on U-tube in Pakistani debates.But the problem with Pakistani intelligensia is, they are rarely factual about the condition of Indian muslims. They keep on crying over the treatments being meted out to muslims in India forgetting the facts that population of muslims in India have increased manifold where as Hindus in Pakistan have DE-creased drastically from 21'/' to 2'/'.everyday you keep on hearing horror stories of and about Pakistani Hindus,in the same breath You can see how muslims of India even after their involvement in many atrocious incidents here, are living with ease! In fact many muslims are contributing in the progress of India.But in Pakistan no non-muslims are allowed to hold key posts in governance of the country.Even they are discriminated in common life too.
So,comparing the condition of Hindus(non-muslims) of pakistan and muslims (non-Hindus) of India are ridiculous,exactly opposite to each other in nature, and Hoodbhoy in no different a Pakistani,he always has been that way about Indian muslims.He keeps on expressing his displeasure over the condition of Indian muslims.He needs to come and stay in India,at least for one year to know the facts.
Otherwise it was good interview!
When he advises that India should not give primacy to religion , he assumes that Hinduism is a mirror image of Islam.
He is only noting what is happening in india to muslims and christians in the name of Dharma.
he says there was no such "Hindu state" before Islam came to India. He then goes on to say that the indigenous Hindus are not indigenous but all originated from Africa. Therefore Hindutva has no claim of making India a Hindu state. and that India belongs equally to the Muslims. He literally denies Hinduism and Hindus as the people belonging to India. He says because the Muslims have lived in Hindustan for hundreds of years it is not a Hindu land anymore. He is a left liberal cultural Marxist indoctrinated person. yes he is from harvard.
If he really says these things then he reveals shallowness of this knowledge@@ehaaron
In its primitive, draconian state, it absolutely is similar to Islam. There is no doubt about that.
Islamic state can not be democratic. Both are contradictory. About India, the more we become Sanathani, the better democratic we can become. Hope, Mr. Hood boy undetstands it.
I thinks Muslims of India faces prejudice from Indian majority that makes them to have separate state and history is again repeating in BJP rule.
Pakistan was already created for them....
It’s a Great Interview. Thanks Abbas. I totally enjoyed it. Prof Pervez Hoodbhoy was great. Happy you are home safe and sound. Take care. Love
Great insightful interview. Thank you Karan and Professor Hoodbhoy