Magnus always gets shit on because people put him in the "bookish nerd" box while forgetting his sheer mass and size, not to even mention his psychic power, which frankly makes him the strongest primarch, since 40K has a really hard time limiting what psykers can and cannot do
Lion's character growth in this was phenomenal. One of my favorite lines was when Zabriel returned with the first group of fallen and the mortal told Lion that his attendant had returned and he replied with, "He is not my attendant, he is my son."
I love how he's reasonable - asking the major in charge of Avalus's defense to hand over control, instead of assuming total rulership. He's a bit like Guilliman in that sense upon return. And to reason with his lost sons with great effort as well.
@@ngominh259he was humbled and learned a lesson. His arrogance lead to the heresy getting worse and when he got to terra while he was only thinking of being a replacement for Horus the reality truck him when he found out the emperor is now a half dead corpse on life support.
A part i would LOVE to point out is when the Lion accidentally teleported for the first time and came into contact with the Imperium. The whole process of them realizing it’s the real Lion and Lion begrudgingly letting the psyker into his mind was a great moment. And afterwards, one of the funniest moments happened. The Imperium gave the Lion the biggest penthouse suite they had, he looks at the king size bed and he just goes: „i can’t sleep on that, i would break the bed“ and so he and Zabriel just ended up sleeping on the floor
Fun fact The old man in the boat is not just an allegory for the emperor but is also based on the Arthurian legend of the fisher king. In the legend the fisher king is the last in a line of English kings tasked with defending the holy grail. And since he's too wounded to do anything but fish he waits for someone to help him, in the story that person is Perceval. There are a lot of versions and one even has him attempting to ask a correct question that would heal him, which Perceval fails. Very on Brand for empy and the lion.
Additionally, the bit with Markog getting decaptated only to pick up his own severed head & promising later retribution, IMO, sounds like a reference to the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Heck, there's probably a good number of other sly references to Arthurian lore in this book that most 40k fans are simply too ignorant to realize. Example: Lion El'Johnson laying asleep in the deepest part of the Rock, after his fight against Luther & the breaking of Caliban, with him only just now waking up when the Imperium needed him most is a reference to how, after he was mortally wounded by Mordred during the fall of Camelot, King Arthur was taken to Avalon where he supposedly sleeps to this very day, yet will awaken & return in Britain's darkest hour.
My favorite part is how the Lion spends all book thinking "dang I hated all my brothers but now that they're all gone that kinda sucks". And then the last lines are basically "Oh wow Roboute is alive! ...oh no, Roboute is alive."
I took that last line differently. He spent the entire book digging at Roboute but then he hears Roboute is actually alive hes suddenly happy and glad because atleast hes not alone and he can help fight off the darkness
@@khalduras784 oh that was definitely there don't get me wrong. But at least I also sensed that tinge of conflict, of "I'm happy he's alive... And also I'm remembering how many times we clashed hard so oh God who knows how this might go"
One of my favorite little things was when they found those Blood Angel successors amd were like "what did chaos do to transform them into mindless beasts" as neither Lion or Zabriel know about the Red Thirst Since its pretty clear that all chaos did to them was trigger and slightly amplify the Red Thirst
@@craftypig7548 which was kept a secret. The only other Primarch to discover it was Horus. Sanguineous was specifically afraid that if anyone found out about it, his legion would be purged. So he hid its existence from all his other brothers
@@TheKingsPride read my 2ed comment. The Blood Angels kept the Red Thirst a secret because they were afraid if the rest of the Imperium found out, they would be purged. The Lion, like nearly every other Primarch, didn't know about the Red Thirst. As far as we know only Horus found out and agreed to keep it a secret, only to after turning traitor tried to use this knowledge to tempt Sanguineous to chaos, which almost worked
The more mild mannered lion is great character development, but I love that they also kept in lines where he was pissed at people but kept it under control. The lion is still an ass, but we can actually see him restraining himself.
I love it too, as a fan of the Horus Heresy books it feels like a really good progression from those. Like he really took some of the lessons of his experiences with Guilliman in Imperium Secundus or Russ at Dulan to heart.
best comedic moment for me was in the void battle when the khorne guy blow up his allies ship and the admiral says to the lion ''how did you know he would do that?'' and the lion just mutters ''you clearly never met angron''
10:15 Its all Arthurian metaphor! The emperor is being described as the Fisher King. (The king charged with guarding the holy grail but is wounded and rendered impotent and his kingdom barren as he guards the grail, sound familiar?)
Was about to type that. Even if there is no actual Arthur with Lion taking a combined role of set up of prior lore as pseudo-Mordred shifting to combination of Gaiwan+Uther.
Yep. Markog was clearly the Green Knight, complete with green armor, an axe, surviving his head being cut off, and owing a blow to the person who killed him. His Slaaneshee group was also called the Dolorous Guard, a castle in Arthurian stories. And the Emperor took the form of the Fisher King, a figure from another famous story in King Arthur mythology.
References? The whole book was one giant retelling of the story, down to the names of the knights and planets. Big E on a fishing boat is the literal Fisher King tale!
It's interesting to compare how Guilliman and the Lion deal with the current Imperium. Guilliman is reflecting on the external (mostly) in how the Imperium is rotten to the core, looking at the big picture of the Imperium as a whole. The Lion is conversely looking internally (again, mostly but not exclusively) at himself and how to deal with the problem at hand by narrowing his scope to the present. The difference between looking at a war and a single battle.
It's an argument for why Old Man Lion would actually make a great Warmaster for the current Imperium. He is able to take a step back and think before he speaks and understands that the Great Crusade is over, and they didn't win.
I absolutely loved the arthurian references in the book. Markog as the green knight, lions group of fallen being the knights of the round table (heck most of them even share names with the knights), the emperor being the fisher king. Heck you could even consider lions memories of malcador being reminiscent of merlin.
Agreed that was a very enjoyable touch, I mean the Lion's power sword had to be pulled from a stone. His warp forest also reminded me of the fey wilds or Avalon.
Good episode, I do wish you mentioned the growth The Lion went through upon remembering his life. Also, the end part with the Lion hearing that another Primarch lives. Would of been great to hear about your guys opinion on that.
Honestly, a run of the first 4 or 5 books would be great, because the first 3 are Horus Rising and two direct sequels, followed by Fulgrim and Flight of the Eisenstein which are both great. That would be my vote.
Agreed, also, in the third book there's a chapter that starts with Horus yelling "you dare come to me with failure", then, in Fulgrim you hear the bit before that that made Horus lose his temper.
I really appreciate them showing examples of how Space Marines, and especially Primarchs, have EXCEPTIONAL memory. It's not all physical augmentations. The Lion remembers seemingly unimportant individuals from thousands of years ago he met only once and that's insane.
The thing with the Red Wisper's helmet was not about what he was hiding, because the book makes as clear as it can without havin anyone say it. His trip through the warp left him whith some nasty mutations, and him being very loyal and dedicated is terribly ashamed of it and does not want any one to see. The important part here is how other characters react to it, seeing as everyone basicaly already nows: his brothers that know him are acomodating and accepting, finding ways to give him space, even though it can be hard during their time as fugitives, and because they can tell he is not ready to talk about it, they never bring it up, which shows that they really care for him. More importantly, the Lion, Captain genocide, 40k Doomguy, is tactfull once he gets a feeling of what is going on and looks past the isue entirely once he is sure of the Red Wisper's loyalty, even defending his choice not to take his helmet of later on, showing how much The Emperor's Exterminator has grown and how genuine his desire to reconcile with his sons is, which is quite sweet. TLDR: The important part about the Red Wisper not taking his helmet off is not what he is hiding, is that everyone nows that he has mutated and even the Lion is kind to him about it and cares about him enough not to force him to show something that is not his fault and that he is very ashamed of.
@@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind The man was cast directly into the Warp, was lost there for a long time, and ever since he reapered he refuses to let anyone see his face and his voice sounds weird? Now, im no inquisitor, but that defintly sounds like some (unwilling) chaos mutation shenanigans to me.
You don't mutate without at least a little bit of corruption. Bealor was not mutated despite even pledging on the side of a Chaos sorcerer because he never accepted Chaos himself directly. If the Red Whisper was mutated then he would definitely be corrupted in some way. Alternatively, I've read theories that the Red Whisper doesn't take off his helmet and why it sounds like he has a horrible throat injury is because he tried to kill himself. It didn't take and now he is ashamed of it. Taking off his helmet would reveal his injuries and make it obvious how he sustained them.
I recommend reading Lukas the Trickster. It is very entertaining to listen to, and provides a good insight into the life on Fenris, which is fitting with you guys currently going over Space Wolves as a topic, and the book rounds out with a high climax and a brilliant set of pay offs at the end. In addition, the book doesn’t cover a large scale war or battle for the fate of the planet, but instead focuses on the small scale efforts of a small crew of Space Wolves that might remind you of the Risen members in Son of the Forest.
Dante is a great book for the next book club. It tells more about the Modern day Blood Angels, the legacy of Sanguinus, and goes in depth in some of the trials that an initiate has to endure to become a Space Marine. It’s also a great character study on Dante, chapter master of the Blangels, and how/why of his Ultra Depression and the burden that the Red Thirst and Black Rage weigh upon the chapter
He more so does not hate guilliman has much has curze (he actually wanted curze fucking dead). He hates guilliman like a brother. Guilliman done stupid stuff and big L is annoyed. Lion: "GUILLIMAN WHERE IS MY XBOX!!?!!?" Guilliman: "...." Lion: "WHERE IS IT!?!?!?" Guilliman: ".....I broke it.... lion: "....YOU BASTARD!!!!!" *Tackles guilliman*
All the Arthurian references. The Fisher King, the Green Knight, and the beheading game. The Lion literally pulls his sword from a stone. Officially, Dark Angels are my favorite Astartes chapter now.
Eisenhorn Malleus! That way you can meet Harlon Nayl my beloved! Its also justa brilliant follow up that really kicks off the Inquisitior series properly
Small correction: _Fulgrim, the Palatine Phoenix_ does not have _the_ concert. It is actually about Fulgrim's solo crusade and the bet with his brothers that he could conquer a world with just seven Marines. It shows some of his best character traits as well as his flaws (placing the bet itself over the health of the world). Also, he panics for a moment, which I will not share, and is only saved because he hung out with Ferrus. I love it - he's my favorite Primarch, when, you know, not corrupted.
Wait... I think Bricky thought of Fulgrim the 5th book from The Hours Heresy and the concert is in there. Palatine Phoenix ist the Primarchs book. It's kind of confusing.
I want someone to jailbreak Trazyn’s Fulgrim clone. The character dynamic between jaded Guilliman, the pressure valve that is The Lion, and a reclaimed traitor Primarch seeking redemption sounds even better than any Loyalist Primarch returning
So we know that the book might as bell be a part of the Arthurian canon for how much it rips off names and themes, but there's some that I need to point out because our AdRic boys didn't comment on it: Markog is the literal Green Knight (named Marchog) whom Gawain cuts the head off. Big E represented as a weakling in a fishing boat is just the Fisher King story of a crippled king who need a knight to go on a quest to give him his strength back (I recall an old theory that Big E is waiting for a Holy Grail-macguffin to come back, and that's why the Primarchs went away). The names of the Fallen are just the Knights of the Round Table, full reference (Launciel, Guain, Cai, Borz, etc).
True, but the roles they play arent mirroring the names. Lion is narratively Gawain, by french seen as a bloodthirsty (and from a dash of pre-mordred-as-actual-bastard-sun-turned-turncoat the other type of bastard) who during the rebellion still sides with Camelot, with a sword he obtained in the forests of the enemy/conquered in the crusade (that will be lost back to said enemy) of his king that is said kings weapons "lightless mirror" yet strikes wounds which scar to honor and bone (and a dash of Uther from the later Uther vs Vorti in form of being a knight redeeming defeated soldiers to be loyal to him and gathering a army against one of his own blood that is a disgrace to them), much like how Luther takes up Mordred rebellion side+Lancelot for everything else (including running away and hiding like a french cuck).
Yeah, Markov was a reference to the green knight, a lot of the risen share names based on or are directly lifted from the knights of the round. Big E being the literal Fisher King, and the treasures that are at the throne room are referencing the artifacts in the Grail procession.
Two good choices for the next book. Got to give it to Horus Rising. Introduces so many great characters, shows how Horus truly was as a Primarch before turning, just a really good read.
He doesn't hate Gman. Every time he did get angry at him he regretted it. Even when he thought back about in the past he regretted it. He was also genuinely happy when he found out he was alive.
Something small that’s worth pointing out is that it’s unlikely that the lion aged due to the normal passage of time. Perturabo was walking through Hrud time fields that aged space marines to dust in seconds with only minor damage to his armour. It could just be a small continuity error but it’s very possible that the lion was wounded in the battle on caliban on a warp/spiritual level and that’s what caused him to age so much. They’re definitely leaning into the warp based nature of primarchs with the lion so I think it really is likely.
Wildcard: Do Wrath of Iron. Not a book about a particularly important part of 40k, but a good look at Iron Hands and potentially my favourite Imperium book for actually questioning whether humanity's survival is even worth all the agony the Imperium puts it through.
I choose Horus Rising because it’s a good book to just dive in unprepared and after you’ve done another Space Marine book, you can then truly choose what book next to pick
I love the part where the Lion fondly remembers Warsmith Dantioch: “ ‘But then, what authority do I hold over you, Zabriel of Terra?’ the Lion asked, apparently speaking to himself as much as to me. ‘The galaxy we were created for is long gone, as are the order and structures into which we fitted. You are my son, and I am a son of the Emperor, but so was Perturabo, yet Barabas Dantioch betrayed him and ended up saving my life.’ I did not speak. I had no idea who Barabas Dantioch was, although this was a tale of which I was intrigued to hear more.”
I vote Eisenhorn. If you go Horus Heresy, it's the start of a 50+ book series, and you'll never get anything else done. Meanwhile, Eisenhorn continues to tell more 'relatable' tales (40k so relatable is arguable), and is a massive fan favorite for a reason.
This is King Arthur and his knights with the one chaos marine getting his head cut off basically being the story of the green knight and sir gawain. The rest of the books and some of the characters are just straight up references to those tales.
I absolutely love this book throughout and loves near all of it But by far the bit thatvmade me laugh the best was when that guardsman calls the chaos space marine a shit head over the vox before fiering a groud to spave lazer battery at him
Just imagine the Lion needling Guiliman over it: "I'm surprised you even HAVE a taste in women, much less one that Fulgrim would approve of," with Guiliman just staring daggers at him in dead silence the whole time.
There was a lot of on the nose Arthurian stuff, like the chaos guy who gets his head cut off being the Green Knight etc, but I really really liked this book. I'm very glad this got picked so that I had a reason to read it.
the wounded fisher king came from Arthurian legend where he is also a protector and embodiment of his land. so representing both the emporium and the emperor. both wounded, both beset by many shadows and both not (yet) talking to the lion
I hope one day, you guys will do "Know No Fear" since you guys already covered "The first heretic" and "Betrayer". It it just feels weird not covering the one book that is in between those two.
"They took all the bones from the people to make a moon and ... what were they going to do with it?" Lol. I feel like this is a Chaos plot playing out like normal!
I think the Red Whisperer not taking of his helmet did actually turn back into itself later on in convincing all the Fallen in that one hangar bay area. Like, it was not as big as 'he took off his helmet and we find out he is X or Y', but instead it plays HARD into how different The Lion truly is, and how he does in fact NOT slay down his sons without proper reason to do so. Personally thought it was a real neat detail in the book, and MY GODS am I happy I grabbed this book. I never really pick up books/games/movies that I keep hearing are 10/10, but gave it a shot as I really like Mike Brooks and this just straight up did not disappoint at all!
Obliterators have the Obliterator virus, which allows them to create weapons out of their body at will. Really cool and surprised that neither of you knew exactly what makes them so special.
Not only do the Eisenhorn books get better as they progress, they tie in with the Ravenor series and later the Bequin series, 9 books in total thus far and absolute must reads!
I really hope they do like either a Risen Kill Team with the Risen they have shown, including the Inner Circle Cataphractii Terminator they found, that guy was cool. Would be funny to do a Risen Kill Team vs Fallen Kill Team
I cannot pit into words the the geek out moment I had when Galad was introduced. The Inner Circle Cenobium Knights are one of my favorite HH units (in the tabletop they are one of the most powerful terminator units). I swear, huge missed opportunity by GW. If they did a 5 man unit of them, I would choose the following. Zabriel (first of the Risen) Lohoc (the Red Whisperer) Kai (the duelist) Launciel (the breacher) Galad (the Cenobium Knight)
Finally got around to the audiobook and came back here for another listen. To comment on the rating, I think one thing to get it to that 10/10 for me would be picking a few of the lions guard and put a little more focus and character into them. It's one of the things that made the night lord trilogy so great.
The pace of this book is very much like “Wolfsbane” by Guy Hayley - they’re also so insanely linked together almost like the authors are collaborating together.
The whole thing with Markov or whatever his name is another reference to the king Arthur legends which this books is full of . Specifically the legend of sir Hawaii and the green kknight. Which features a seemingly immortal warrior who shows up at Camelot on Christmas and challenges Arthur's knights to strike a blow against him with the caveat that he will return in a Year and strike the knight who hits him in the same spot in return. Gawain chops his head off. And the story follows gawain dealing with the idea that the green knight will return and kill him the next year. The deposition of the emperors in the story is based in the fisher king story which is part of the story around the hole y trail quest by Arthur's knigbts. Several or the fallen who are redeemed including Bors and Kai share names with Arthur's ill nights as well
Aw yeah, Son of the Forest! One of my favourite W40K books, to my own surprise. Such a fun adventure romp, while doing a _ton_ to make me love the Lion.
One book I would like to mention that's semi lesser known but a really fun read and insight into chaos warbands (if but some), the Lords of Silence is a fun book following a death guard warband named the lords of silence. It was a fun and enjoyable read, nothing crazy but seeing the psychology of plague Marines was enjoyable
One of my favourite things is how much he rags on guilliman and then at the end his reaction “I am not alone”. Love the personality of every character. Maybe my small complaint is that the lion gets his sword in a really odd video game power up sense which just threw me off
The Lion during the heresy: undiagnosed autistic adult, constantly overstimulated and upset, doesn’t know how to properly interact with his children. The Lion in son of the forest: got diagnosed, learns how to not lash out and regulate, realized how his lashing out effected his sons, and works to redeem his sons. (I am autistic and this is his I truly interpreted his journey, I have gone through a similar journey recently)
Oh you should definitely read Horus Rising! You've been doing this podcast for a few years now, and it - to me - just feels like the right thing to do. DK was talking about it in your *first* episode about the Krieg. Something about "Most people tell me that we should start with the Horus Heresy", which he by then knew nothing about more than the name. That's my vote!
Man you threw the Obliterators under the bus. The Obliterator Virus is the whole mechanical bodyhorror thing in 40k, and Iron Warriors in particular seem to catch it more often, but anyone can be touched by something possibly created in the Soul Forges at the microbial level in a similar way to Nurgle poxes including tiny daemons.
I have been into the 40k lore for years and only about a year ago started reading the books, this was the 4th book i read and i was loving every chapter
The whole 'Fisher King' segment and later Green Knight stuff are direct rips from British Arthurian legend. Pretty interesting stuff if you're into different cultural mythologies...
Probably one of my favorite 40k books since first reading a 40k novel by William king the old school blackmane series. As a wolves fan I can say the risen and lion have made me a DA fan almost on par with the wolves.
Sticking out your gyatt for the Risen They so Zabriel They so Kai duels I just wanna be their Lion Also: >Bricky gets silver mirror wings >Half his face catches fire >It does it latitudinally >MFW Bricky's forehead is entirely made of flames.
This may go unseen, but i highly suggest for a book club you guys do Renegades: Harrowmaster, it is in fact still SM but it's a book following the Alpha Legion in the ultima segmentum during present day 40k
If you want to read something xenos-focused, I really recommend the Farsight books :) There's "Farsight" (how he got his name), "Crisis of Faith" (start of his expedition) and "Empire of Lies" (creation of the Enclaves). I'd recommend all of them to see his journey, but the 2nd and 3rd have audio versions (they're also much more recent books). I really liked seeing a non-Imperial, non-Chaos perspective - and the T'au have such an alien view on the 40k world that it's quite refreshing. Plus Farsight is a badass and a very sympathetic character as you'll see! On the same lines, I've also enjoyed the even more recent "Shadowsun" which compliments Farsight's novels quite well in seeing things from her perspective - and she's very cool too!
When you all said that this would be your next book i was so excited. This book is so good and it made me a Dark Angels Fan. It had so many good points in it. As for the next book. I say the second Eishorn Book.
Not only that Cypher book (which you should really check out ... also very good, props to the trolling Shy) ... but, ya know, there was that whole Luther book, too.
For the next book do “The Carrion Throne” Erasmus Crowl is a cool inquisitor and you get the inquisition, custodes and and assassins. Leaving stuff out for spoilers too, mostly on Terra!
So I returned this book on Audible, tried to listen to this to get a brief summary, heard the words the book is really good. Purchased the book again and just finished it. Its an incredibly good book
I'd definitely try some of the Warhammer Horror books, like The Revere, The Oubliette, and the Deacon of Wounds. Or if you want to branch out, two of the best AOS novels are Godeater's Son and The Court of the Blind King.
Before this book i was not a fan of the Lion. This book really impressed me and showed a Lion that has learned a lesson in humility. I really like the charcter growth from the 30k version of him. The ending of this book was absolutely amazing.
"I know you must be a fraud, Magnus doesn't hit that hard."
Magnus: "I punched out *one of his hearts!* Why does nobody remember that?"
Magnus always gets shit on because people put him in the "bookish nerd" box while forgetting his sheer mass and size, not to even mention his psychic power, which frankly makes him the strongest primarch, since 40K has a really hard time limiting what psykers can and cannot do
Lion's character growth in this was phenomenal. One of my favorite lines was when Zabriel returned with the first group of fallen and the mortal told Lion that his attendant had returned and he replied with, "He is not my attendant, he is my son."
It really boils down to "Please forgive me daddy I didnt know." "OH wow I was a massive tool wasnt I."
A primarch, learning from their mistakes?
No sir I don't believe it. It's some chaos trick.
I love how he's reasonable - asking the major in charge of Avalus's defense to hand over control, instead of assuming total rulership. He's a bit like Guilliman in that sense upon return. And to reason with his lost sons with great effort as well.
@@ngominh259he was humbled and learned a lesson. His arrogance lead to the heresy getting worse and when he got to terra while he was only thinking of being a replacement for Horus the reality truck him when he found out the emperor is now a half dead corpse on life support.
A part i would LOVE to point out is when the Lion accidentally teleported for the first time and came into contact with the Imperium.
The whole process of them realizing it’s the real Lion and Lion begrudgingly letting the psyker into his mind was a great moment. And afterwards, one of the funniest moments happened. The Imperium gave the Lion the biggest penthouse suite they had, he looks at the king size bed and he just goes: „i can’t sleep on that, i would break the bed“ and so he and Zabriel just ended up sleeping on the floor
I laughed out loud at the scene because in my head there are probaly servants outside the door who where like "shit what do we do"
"We slept on the ground often enough at Camarth. Is a carpet beneath you now, my lord?" -Zabriel
Fun fact
The old man in the boat is not just an allegory for the emperor but is also based on the Arthurian legend of the fisher king.
In the legend the fisher king is the last in a line of English kings tasked with defending the holy grail. And since he's too wounded to do anything but fish he waits for someone to help him, in the story that person is Perceval.
There are a lot of versions and one even has him attempting to ask a correct question that would heal him, which Perceval fails. Very on Brand for empy and the lion.
How does everybody who does an episode on this miss the Fisher King thing?!
Additionally, the bit with Markog getting decaptated only to pick up his own severed head & promising later retribution, IMO, sounds like a reference to the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Heck, there's probably a good number of other sly references to Arthurian lore in this book that most 40k fans are simply too ignorant to realize.
Example: Lion El'Johnson laying asleep in the deepest part of the Rock, after his fight against Luther & the breaking of Caliban, with him only just now waking up when the Imperium needed him most is a reference to how, after he was mortally wounded by Mordred during the fall of Camelot, King Arthur was taken to Avalon where he supposedly sleeps to this very day, yet will awaken & return in Britain's darkest hour.
My favorite part is how the Lion spends all book thinking "dang I hated all my brothers but now that they're all gone that kinda sucks". And then the last lines are basically "Oh wow Roboute is alive! ...oh no, Roboute is alive."
I took that last line differently. He spent the entire book digging at Roboute but then he hears Roboute is actually alive hes suddenly happy and glad because atleast hes not alone and he can help fight off the darkness
@@khalduras784 oh that was definitely there don't get me wrong. But at least I also sensed that tinge of conflict, of "I'm happy he's alive... And also I'm remembering how many times we clashed hard so oh God who knows how this might go"
@@fernandodamas8533”I did almost kill his mom…”
Lion and Guilliman are actually decent friends. They had one bad moment and this isn’t the same Lion or Guilliman either.
One of my favorite little things was when they found those Blood Angel successors amd were like "what did chaos do to transform them into mindless beasts" as neither Lion or Zabriel know about the Red Thirst
Since its pretty clear that all chaos did to them was trigger and slightly amplify the Red Thirst
Do you mean the Black Rage? Because the Blood Angels had the Red Thirst during the Great Crusade
@@craftypig7548 which was kept a secret. The only other Primarch to discover it was Horus. Sanguineous was specifically afraid that if anyone found out about it, his legion would be purged. So he hid its existence from all his other brothers
It’s the Black Rage that they don’t know about. Because it specifically happens after the Heresy.
@@TheKingsPride read my 2ed comment. The Blood Angels kept the Red Thirst a secret because they were afraid if the rest of the Imperium found out, they would be purged. The Lion, like nearly every other Primarch, didn't know about the Red Thirst. As far as we know only Horus found out and agreed to keep it a secret, only to after turning traitor tried to use this knowledge to tempt Sanguineous to chaos, which almost worked
@@thewerdna yeah but it wasn’t the red thirst that was being manipulated in the Bloodrage project. It was the Black Rage.
The more mild mannered lion is great character development, but I love that they also kept in lines where he was pissed at people but kept it under control. The lion is still an ass, but we can actually see him restraining himself.
I love it too, as a fan of the Horus Heresy books it feels like a really good progression from those. Like he really took some of the lessons of his experiences with Guilliman in Imperium Secundus or Russ at Dulan to heart.
best comedic moment for me was in the void battle when the khorne guy blow up his allies ship and the admiral says to the lion ''how did you know he would do that?'' and the lion just mutters ''you clearly never met angron''
Throws gore covered helmet at mortals. "Clean that."
I don't know why, but I loved that line too 😂
10:15
Its all Arthurian metaphor! The emperor is being described as the Fisher King.
(The king charged with guarding the holy grail but is wounded and rendered impotent and his kingdom barren as he guards the grail, sound familiar?)
Was about to type that.
Even if there is no actual Arthur with Lion taking a combined role of set up of prior lore as pseudo-Mordred shifting to combination of Gaiwan+Uther.
It's alright, they may not have caught the Arthurian allusions, but you did and apparently more people don't catch it than I thought.
I love the little Arthurian references in this book. Immortal was just Slaneesh green knight
Yep. Markog was clearly the Green Knight, complete with green armor, an axe, surviving his head being cut off, and owing a blow to the person who killed him.
His Slaaneshee group was also called the Dolorous Guard, a castle in Arthurian stories.
And the Emperor took the form of the Fisher King, a figure from another famous story in King Arthur mythology.
References? The whole book was one giant retelling of the story, down to the names of the knights and planets. Big E on a fishing boat is the literal Fisher King tale!
Half the Fallen/Risen are just Arthurian knights with slight changes to their names
I love how much Arthurian lore this book included, every time a new Fallen showed up I was giddy to see what new Knight of Round Table it would be.
I recommend the valdor book, it's a short one but v good
It's interesting to compare how Guilliman and the Lion deal with the current Imperium. Guilliman is reflecting on the external (mostly) in how the Imperium is rotten to the core, looking at the big picture of the Imperium as a whole. The Lion is conversely looking internally (again, mostly but not exclusively) at himself and how to deal with the problem at hand by narrowing his scope to the present. The difference between looking at a war and a single battle.
Exactly, it’s tactics vs strategy
It's an argument for why Old Man Lion would actually make a great Warmaster for the current Imperium. He is able to take a step back and think before he speaks and understands that the Great Crusade is over, and they didn't win.
The fun thing about the whole old man Primarch stuff is that honestly theres a decent chance that he feels old because he thinks he should feel old
Lion: No longer Fallen. They are, my Risen.
Asmodai: * whimper * 😩
@@arcahmwinters70 "REPEEEEEEEEEEEE*energy mace? noises *"
I absolutely loved the arthurian references in the book. Markog as the green knight, lions group of fallen being the knights of the round table (heck most of them even share names with the knights), the emperor being the fisher king. Heck you could even consider lions memories of malcador being reminiscent of merlin.
Agreed that was a very enjoyable touch, I mean the Lion's power sword had to be pulled from a stone. His warp forest also reminded me of the fey wilds or Avalon.
Good episode, I do wish you mentioned the growth The Lion went through upon remembering his life.
Also, the end part with the Lion hearing that another Primarch lives. Would of been great to hear about your guys opinion on that.
For the next book club, Horus Rising would be a good idea. Learning more about Mr. Horus Heresy himself and where it (officially) began.
Honestly, a run of the first 4 or 5 books would be great, because the first 3 are Horus Rising and two direct sequels, followed by Fulgrim and Flight of the Eisenstein which are both great. That would be my vote.
Not a bad idea tbh.
Agreed, also, in the third book there's a chapter that starts with Horus yelling "you dare come to me with failure", then, in Fulgrim you hear the bit before that that made Horus lose his temper.
The Rizzen and there primarch, The Rizzler.
Thanks, I hate it.
I really appreciate them showing examples of how Space Marines, and especially Primarchs, have EXCEPTIONAL memory. It's not all physical augmentations. The Lion remembers seemingly unimportant individuals from thousands of years ago he met only once and that's insane.
The thing with the Red Wisper's helmet was not about what he was hiding, because the book makes as clear as it can without havin anyone say it. His trip through the warp left him whith some nasty mutations, and him being very loyal and dedicated is terribly ashamed of it and does not want any one to see.
The important part here is how other characters react to it, seeing as everyone basicaly already nows: his brothers that know him are acomodating and accepting, finding ways to give him space, even though it can be hard during their time as fugitives, and because they can tell he is not ready to talk about it, they never bring it up, which shows that they really care for him.
More importantly, the Lion, Captain genocide, 40k Doomguy, is tactfull once he gets a feeling of what is going on and looks past the isue entirely once he is sure of the Red Wisper's loyalty, even defending his choice not to take his helmet of later on, showing how much The Emperor's Exterminator has grown and how genuine his desire to reconcile with his sons is, which is quite sweet.
TLDR: The important part about the Red Wisper not taking his helmet off is not what he is hiding, is that everyone nows that he has mutated and even the Lion is kind to him about it and cares about him enough not to force him to show something that is not his fault and that he is very ashamed of.
I was 90% sure he was mutated and 10% sure it was just Alpharius under the helmet.
@Fordo007 There is always a non-zero chance that any given character is Alpharius.
Which part of the book is that in? I never caught that he was supposed to be mutated/deformed
@@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind The man was cast directly into the Warp, was lost there for a long time, and ever since he reapered he refuses to let anyone see his face and his voice sounds weird? Now, im no inquisitor, but that defintly sounds like some (unwilling) chaos mutation shenanigans to me.
You don't mutate without at least a little bit of corruption. Bealor was not mutated despite even pledging on the side of a Chaos sorcerer because he never accepted Chaos himself directly. If the Red Whisper was mutated then he would definitely be corrupted in some way.
Alternatively, I've read theories that the Red Whisper doesn't take off his helmet and why it sounds like he has a horrible throat injury is because he tried to kill himself. It didn't take and now he is ashamed of it. Taking off his helmet would reveal his injuries and make it obvious how he sustained them.
I recommend reading Lukas the Trickster. It is very entertaining to listen to, and provides a good insight into the life on Fenris, which is fitting with you guys currently going over Space Wolves as a topic, and the book rounds out with a high climax and a brilliant set of pay offs at the end.
In addition, the book doesn’t cover a large scale war or battle for the fate of the planet, but instead focuses on the small scale efforts of a small crew of Space Wolves that might remind you of the Risen members in Son of the Forest.
Dante is a great book for the next book club. It tells more about the Modern day Blood Angels, the legacy of Sanguinus, and goes in depth in some of the trials that an initiate has to endure to become a Space Marine. It’s also a great character study on Dante, chapter master of the Blangels, and how/why of his Ultra Depression and the burden that the Red Thirst and Black Rage weigh upon the chapter
Lion: "Of all my brothers, I hate Konrad Curze the most, but man, do I hate blue berry Guilliman after Curze."
He more so does not hate guilliman has much has curze (he actually wanted curze fucking dead). He hates guilliman like a brother. Guilliman done stupid stuff and big L is annoyed.
Lion: "GUILLIMAN WHERE IS MY XBOX!!?!!?"
Guilliman: "...."
Lion: "WHERE IS IT!?!?!?"
Guilliman: ".....I broke it....
lion: "....YOU BASTARD!!!!!" *Tackles guilliman*
You know this isnt in accurate
Granted there is a MASSIVE gap between the two.
He doesn't really "hate" Guilliman it's just that they are very different personalities.
Yeah it was more of "Ugh, shame that G-Man is not here - he's a prick, but man, he would be handy to have here"
Emperor Norton for Detective Ridiculous.
The TRUE Emperor of Mankind
His valiant protection of Mexico shall never be forgotten
Ahem cough cough
This novel is responsible for the Lion becoming my focus going forward with 40k and starting a DA army. I just loved this super relatable "new" Lion.
All the Arthurian references. The Fisher King, the Green Knight, and the beheading game. The Lion literally pulls his sword from a stone. Officially, Dark Angels are my favorite Astartes chapter now.
Prediction: The Red Whisper IS Luthor, escaped from the Rock and trying to atone for his sins
Red Whisper showed in Gathering Storm, before luther bailed iirc.
"Oh Slannesh and Tzeentch, give me the tongue" needs to be a teeshirt.
Eisenhorn Malleus! That way you can meet Harlon Nayl my beloved!
Its also justa brilliant follow up that really kicks off the Inquisitior series properly
Gotta do it for harlon and patience. Some of the best characters are in that one
Small correction: _Fulgrim, the Palatine Phoenix_ does not have _the_ concert. It is actually about Fulgrim's solo crusade and the bet with his brothers that he could conquer a world with just seven Marines.
It shows some of his best character traits as well as his flaws (placing the bet itself over the health of the world). Also, he panics for a moment, which I will not share, and is only saved because he hung out with Ferrus.
I love it - he's my favorite Primarch, when, you know, not corrupted.
Wait... I think Bricky thought of Fulgrim the 5th book from The Hours Heresy and the concert is in there. Palatine Phoenix ist the Primarchs book. It's kind of confusing.
I want someone to jailbreak Trazyn’s Fulgrim clone. The character dynamic between jaded Guilliman, the pressure valve that is The Lion, and a reclaimed traitor Primarch seeking redemption sounds even better than any Loyalist Primarch returning
So we know that the book might as bell be a part of the Arthurian canon for how much it rips off names and themes, but there's some that I need to point out because our AdRic boys didn't comment on it: Markog is the literal Green Knight (named Marchog) whom Gawain cuts the head off. Big E represented as a weakling in a fishing boat is just the Fisher King story of a crippled king who need a knight to go on a quest to give him his strength back (I recall an old theory that Big E is waiting for a Holy Grail-macguffin to come back, and that's why the Primarchs went away). The names of the Fallen are just the Knights of the Round Table, full reference (Launciel, Guain, Cai, Borz, etc).
True, but the roles they play arent mirroring the names.
Lion is narratively Gawain, by french seen as a bloodthirsty (and from a dash of pre-mordred-as-actual-bastard-sun-turned-turncoat the other type of bastard) who during the rebellion still sides with Camelot, with a sword he obtained in the forests of the enemy/conquered in the crusade (that will be lost back to said enemy) of his king that is said kings weapons "lightless mirror" yet strikes wounds which scar to honor and bone (and a dash of Uther from the later Uther vs Vorti in form of being a knight redeeming defeated soldiers to be loyal to him and gathering a army against one of his own blood that is a disgrace to them), much like how Luther takes up Mordred rebellion side+Lancelot for everything else (including running away and hiding like a french cuck).
Shit now i noticed, Camelot and Avalon, cheeky author throwing more Arthurian legends
Yeah, Markov was a reference to the green knight, a lot of the risen share names based on or are directly lifted from the knights of the round. Big E being the literal Fisher King, and the treasures that are at the throne room are referencing the artifacts in the Grail procession.
Omg how did I not notice that when I read it? Whelp, that cheeky bastard. I knew the whole beheading of Markov felt familiar.
Two good choices for the next book. Got to give it to Horus Rising. Introduces so many great characters, shows how Horus truly was as a Primarch before turning, just a really good read.
He doesn't hate Gman. Every time he did get angry at him he regretted it. Even when he thought back about in the past he regretted it. He was also genuinely happy when he found out he was alive.
Honey it's 5am time for Book Club
Something small that’s worth pointing out is that it’s unlikely that the lion aged due to the normal passage of time.
Perturabo was walking through Hrud time fields that aged space marines to dust in seconds with only minor damage to his armour.
It could just be a small continuity error but it’s very possible that the lion was wounded in the battle on caliban on a warp/spiritual level and that’s what caused him to age so much. They’re definitely leaning into the warp based nature of primarchs with the lion so I think it really is likely.
Wildcard: Do Wrath of Iron. Not a book about a particularly important part of 40k, but a good look at Iron Hands and potentially my favourite Imperium book for actually questioning whether humanity's survival is even worth all the agony the Imperium puts it through.
I choose Horus Rising because it’s a good book to just dive in unprepared and after you’ve done another Space Marine book, you can then truly choose what book next to pick
I love the part where the Lion fondly remembers Warsmith Dantioch:
“ ‘But then, what authority do I hold over you, Zabriel of Terra?’ the Lion asked, apparently speaking to himself as much as to me. ‘The galaxy we were created for is long gone, as are the order and structures into which we fitted. You are my son, and I am a son of the Emperor, but so was Perturabo, yet Barabas Dantioch betrayed him and ended up saving my life.’
I did not speak. I had no idea who Barabas Dantioch was, although this was a tale of which I was intrigued to hear more.”
I vote Eisenhorn.
If you go Horus Heresy, it's the start of a 50+ book series, and you'll never get anything else done. Meanwhile, Eisenhorn continues to tell more 'relatable' tales (40k so relatable is arguable), and is a massive fan favorite for a reason.
Do Horus Rising, DK needs to know why he should be stanning for Garviel Loken and Torgaddon !
Bricky had mentioned before that the Lion was heavy on Arthurian legends, but neither of them recognized the Fisher King at the beginning of the story
This is King Arthur and his knights with the one chaos marine getting his head cut off basically being the story of the green knight and sir gawain. The rest of the books and some of the characters are just straight up references to those tales.
I loved the Arthurian references soooooo much. So much fun if you know those myths.
I absolutely love this book throughout and loves near all of it
But by far the bit thatvmade me laugh the best was when that guardsman calls the chaos space marine a shit head over the vox before fiering a groud to spave lazer battery at him
"HE DID WHAT WITH A WHAT?!?!? GUILIMAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!" - Lion finding out about Guiliman's new girlfriend, probably.
Just imagine the Lion needling Guiliman over it: "I'm surprised you even HAVE a taste in women, much less one that Fulgrim would approve of," with Guiliman just staring daggers at him in dead silence the whole time.
@@bubbasbigblast8563 lmfao I could see that.
I mean who wouldn’t want a Rogue Trader girlfriend who gives you affectionate nicknames
Steel Tread and Outgunned would be great books. But Horus Rising has my vote cause Garviel Loken
He forgot, "Roboute, I am not alone"
There was a lot of on the nose Arthurian stuff, like the chaos guy who gets his head cut off being the Green Knight etc, but I really really liked this book. I'm very glad this got picked so that I had a reason to read it.
the wounded fisher king came from Arthurian legend where he is also a protector and embodiment of his land. so representing both the emporium and the emperor. both wounded, both beset by many shadows and both not (yet) talking to the lion
What was more shocking Bricky, Son of the Forest OR Holocure being great lol?
I hope one day, you guys will do "Know No Fear" since you guys already covered "The first heretic" and "Betrayer". It it just feels weird not covering the one book that is in between those two.
"They took all the bones from the people to make a moon and ... what were they going to do with it?"
Lol. I feel like this is a Chaos plot playing out like normal!
Because of this book, I'm running Risen in my DA army. Like, black painted armor and everything mixed in with my regular forest green ones.
If you want a standalone guard story that has some good romance, worldbuilding, and actually portrays Scions, I'd recommend Honourbound.
I think the Red Whisperer not taking of his helmet did actually turn back into itself later on in convincing all the Fallen in that one hangar bay area. Like, it was not as big as 'he took off his helmet and we find out he is X or Y', but instead it plays HARD into how different The Lion truly is, and how he does in fact NOT slay down his sons without proper reason to do so.
Personally thought it was a real neat detail in the book, and MY GODS am I happy I grabbed this book. I never really pick up books/games/movies that I keep hearing are 10/10, but gave it a shot as I really like Mike Brooks and this just straight up did not disappoint at all!
Doing the first book in the heresy series right as the last book of siege of terra comes out would be funny timing
Obliterators have the Obliterator virus, which allows them to create weapons out of their body at will. Really cool and surprised that neither of you knew exactly what makes them so special.
Not only do the Eisenhorn books get better as they progress, they tie in with the Ravenor series and later the Bequin series, 9 books in total thus far and absolute must reads!
I really hope they do like either a Risen Kill Team with the Risen they have shown, including the Inner Circle Cataphractii Terminator they found, that guy was cool. Would be funny to do a Risen Kill Team vs Fallen Kill Team
I cannot pit into words the the geek out moment I had when Galad was introduced. The Inner Circle Cenobium Knights are one of my favorite HH units (in the tabletop they are one of the most powerful terminator units). I swear, huge missed opportunity by GW. If they did a 5 man unit of them, I would choose the following.
Zabriel (first of the Risen)
Lohoc (the Red Whisperer)
Kai (the duelist)
Launciel (the breacher)
Galad (the Cenobium Knight)
I absolutely adore this book, but I’m a little biased because The Lion is by far my favorite 40K character.
Old and Busted: Old Man Logan
Old Hotness: Old Man Lion
The Lion has Rizzed the Fallen into becoming the Rizzed
Mike Brooks needs to be given all the 40k books. This book and the Alpharious book are both my favourites in the setting
Finally got around to the audiobook and came back here for another listen.
To comment on the rating, I think one thing to get it to that 10/10 for me would be picking a few of the lions guard and put a little more focus and character into them. It's one of the things that made the night lord trilogy so great.
I heard clips of Lion's reaction to Gman being alive, thought he was just happy he wasn't alone, not that he still hates Gman 😅
Love the book club art! The teapot of Tanna is a nice touch
Best intro in recent times. Short, sweet and entertaining.
The pace of this book is very much like “Wolfsbane” by Guy Hayley - they’re also so insanely linked together almost like the authors are collaborating together.
Can’t wait for them to do Lords of Silence.
The whole thing with Markov or whatever his name is another reference to the king Arthur legends which this books is full of .
Specifically the legend of sir Hawaii and the green kknight. Which features a seemingly immortal warrior who shows up at Camelot on Christmas and challenges Arthur's knights to strike a blow against him with the caveat that he will return in a Year and strike the knight who hits him in the same spot in return. Gawain chops his head off. And the story follows gawain dealing with the idea that the green knight will return and kill him the next year.
The deposition of the emperors in the story is based in the fisher king story which is part of the story around the hole
y trail quest by Arthur's knigbts.
Several or the fallen who are redeemed including Bors and Kai share names with Arthur's ill nights as well
Aw yeah, Son of the Forest! One of my favourite W40K books, to my own surprise. Such a fun adventure romp, while doing a _ton_ to make me love the Lion.
I *love* Mike Brooks's books. Great idea to have him write this book!
One book I would like to mention that's semi lesser known but a really fun read and insight into chaos warbands (if but some), the Lords of Silence is a fun book following a death guard warband named the lords of silence.
It was a fun and enjoyable read, nothing crazy but seeing the psychology of plague Marines was enjoyable
One of my favourite things is how much he rags on guilliman and then at the end his reaction “I am not alone”. Love the personality of every character. Maybe my small complaint is that the lion gets his sword in a really odd video game power up sense which just threw me off
31:00 Trizzyn the infinidrip would like to have a word
Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne and/or Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion both by Chris Wraight
The Lion during the heresy: undiagnosed autistic adult, constantly overstimulated and upset, doesn’t know how to properly interact with his children.
The Lion in son of the forest: got diagnosed, learns how to not lash out and regulate, realized how his lashing out effected his sons, and works to redeem his sons.
(I am autistic and this is his I truly interpreted his journey, I have gone through a similar journey recently)
Oh you should definitely read Horus Rising! You've been doing this podcast for a few years now, and it - to me - just feels like the right thing to do.
DK was talking about it in your *first* episode about the Krieg. Something about "Most people tell me that we should start with the Horus Heresy", which he by then knew nothing about more than the name. That's my vote!
Man you threw the Obliterators under the bus. The Obliterator Virus is the whole mechanical bodyhorror thing in 40k, and Iron Warriors in particular seem to catch it more often, but anyone can be touched by something possibly created in the Soul Forges at the microbial level in a similar way to Nurgle poxes including tiny daemons.
I have been into the 40k lore for years and only about a year ago started reading the books, this was the 4th book i read and i was loving every chapter
imagine if the terminus decree says "once the lion and robute wake up, double the primaris production"
The whole 'Fisher King' segment and later Green Knight stuff are direct rips from British Arthurian legend. Pretty interesting stuff if you're into different cultural mythologies...
Im honestly surprised that it took bricky this long to notice "the RIZZEN"
Huron Blackheart Master of the Maelstrom, Huron is such a good chaos character and his book is great, i recommend doing a book club on that.
Probably one of my favorite 40k books since first reading a 40k novel by William king the old school blackmane series. As a wolves fan I can say the risen and lion have made me a DA fan almost on par with the wolves.
Sticking out your gyatt for the Risen
They so Zabriel
They so Kai duels
I just wanna be their Lion
Also:
>Bricky gets silver mirror wings
>Half his face catches fire
>It does it latitudinally
>MFW Bricky's forehead is entirely made of flames.
The stuff with Markog getting his head cut off was a nod to the legend of the Green Knight, fitting imagery for the Dark Angels I would say.
This may go unseen, but i highly suggest for a book club you guys do Renegades: Harrowmaster, it is in fact still SM but it's a book following the Alpha Legion in the ultima segmentum during present day 40k
If you want to read something xenos-focused, I really recommend the Farsight books :) There's "Farsight" (how he got his name), "Crisis of Faith" (start of his expedition) and "Empire of Lies" (creation of the Enclaves). I'd recommend all of them to see his journey, but the 2nd and 3rd have audio versions (they're also much more recent books). I really liked seeing a non-Imperial, non-Chaos perspective - and the T'au have such an alien view on the 40k world that it's quite refreshing. Plus Farsight is a badass and a very sympathetic character as you'll see! On the same lines, I've also enjoyed the even more recent "Shadowsun" which compliments Farsight's novels quite well in seeing things from her perspective - and she's very cool too!
I'd love to see you do a double book feature; 'A Thousand Sons' and 'Prospero Burns', the razing of Prospero told from the perspectives of each side.
When you all said that this would be your next book i was so excited. This book is so good and it made me a Dark Angels Fan. It had so many good points in it.
As for the next book. I say the second Eishorn Book.
Not only that Cypher book (which you should really check out ... also very good, props to the trolling Shy) ... but, ya know, there was that whole Luther book, too.
For the next book do “The Carrion Throne” Erasmus Crowl is a cool inquisitor and you get the inquisition, custodes and and assassins. Leaving stuff out for spoilers too, mostly on Terra!
horus rising is the only one i've read and it made me start a buyingspree of books
You guys should do The Carrion Throne a inquisitor story with huge lore implications.
So I returned this book on Audible, tried to listen to this to get a brief summary, heard the words the book is really good. Purchased the book again and just finished it. Its an incredibly good book
It was like I was reading a continuation of the Dark Angel books from the Horus Heresy, it was glorious.
Hells reach has always been my favorite, and the fan animation has cemented it in my heart.
I'd definitely try some of the Warhammer Horror books, like The Revere, The Oubliette, and the Deacon of Wounds.
Or if you want to branch out, two of the best AOS novels are Godeater's Son and The Court of the Blind King.
Before this book i was not a fan of the Lion. This book really impressed me and showed a Lion that has learned a lesson in humility. I really like the charcter growth from the 30k version of him. The ending of this book was absolutely amazing.