I had eventually acquired all the parts for a complete 105 triple 10 speed group. I'd started cycling on 7x3 in the '90's and the triple road group really opened my eyes. When you live in a hilly area, you want to control your efforts in order not to maxing out the heart rate on every long ride. The triple has a place expect that few people appreciate it compared to those brainwashed on the latest and greatest marketing ploy from the bike industry.
I agree that range is more important than number of gears. I would go further : most people have "gear range" issues at only one end of the range (for most people it's at the low end). So mosy people don't need more range, they just need to center the range on their needs. Often that just means a new chainring.
@RollinRat That's a good way to put it, and exactly what my gramps has been saying after 60 years of cycling. A 3 speed hub for if you're in a mountainous area like the Rockies. Change the front gear size to get the range where it needs to be.
@RollinRat Derailers do great for cheap, they're everywhere. I've got a basic 80's flat handlebar Cr/Mo steel bike with a 3x7 and it's great for going around the hills terrain here, but I find myself mostly just using 2 and 1, 3, and 6 for most of the inclines. Which is a good reason to go for a 3 speed hub for my commuter bike, when it's just 10 to 20 minutes each way for most trips. A single speed would be neat for maximum bike workout for strength, but if I did that I'd want to find something vintage, have a little bit of a collection. The Archer 3 have a .667, direct, and 1.667x gears, which covers most uses, and for direct uses none of the gearing and so is more efficient, mostly like a fixed gear most of the time. The others are for when you really need it.
A double chainring solves range and steps between gears as compared to a 1X drivetrain. For a double, that one additional ring can equal additional 3 or 4 cogs on the back. I'm perfectly fine with my 10 and 11 speed bikes as long as I have a double chainring.
I totally agree with this. I sometimes ride with loads on my bike and at various terrains. Double chainring just seems so much more practical in actual use than my one 1x bike.
Absolutely, and the 2x setup allows for easier downshifting under load. Instead of climbing up the cassette to get to a lower gear one can quickly shift down to the smaller chainring without as much fuss from the drive train.
11 speed 12-30 cassette and a 40/26 crank is perfection for me for the western NC gravel mountains. It all depends on where you ride, your load, and fitness level.
Take a look at White Industries and Rene Herse. SRAM's 46/33 isn't terrible for a production option. Just depends on your terrain and preferred cadence.
@RollinRat I had enough room to get the FD low enough to shift well. My bigger issue was getting the angle just perfect. Once I found that, it actually shifted well. I imagine you could set this up with a Shimano FD as well, but my experience was with a SRAM FD. Crazy, but on another bike of mine, I have a SRAM double left shifter controlling a Shimano 10sp CX FD with 2x Rotor oval ring setup (11sp road bike). FD shifting is money! Works extremely well. Play around with a few things. I own a bike shop, so I play with this all the time. I try all kinds of things on my personal bikes so I can learn something. SRAM 2x can be frustrating, but I can usually get it working well. Good luck with your projects.
Still rocking my 3x10 drivetrain w/ 900% gear range. The only ratio I rarely use is the 44 : 11 but the rest all get used. I ride the 3x front more like a 1x, just that I have a choice of 3 different chain rings, one for the road, one for the rolling hills and one for the dirt.
900% gear range?! How? I've got almost 700% on my 3x10 but I've got loads of chain slop in the small:small configuration. In fact, on my smallest chainring, I usually only run the 4 largest cogs to maintain enough chain tension.
Mountain biker here. I recently switched from a 11-50 11 speed to a 11-50 9 speed. For me it's so much better. I really only use about 4 of the gears to be honest. I'm running a 32t chainwheel, but I could absolutely see this thing on a gravel or touring bike with a double up front. Maybe a 47-48 or so.
I got 2x8 here, from the climbing 39/36 to the falling 53/11, for me it's perfect in my hilly urban environment. Got an 11-40 cassette stored if my knees need it in the future
Last month I switched out the cassette on my sons 7 speed fat bike that he uses to get to school in powdery snow or slush. It went from 11-28 to 14-42. Same amount of gears but each gear gets a lot more use.
Adding cogs to a 1x system increases the range additively (incrementally). Adding a front derailleur increases the range multiplicatively. My 3x9 setup has a range of 6.18. To get that with a 1x system would require an 11-68 cassette instead of the 11-34 I have. That would need an RD with a take-up capacity of 57 teeth. My Deore has a rated capacity of 45 though my setup actually uses 47 and works OK. I use the front derailleur as a high-medium-low range selector. It’s true I never really need the highest available ratios. On the other hand, if I loaned my bike to a stronger person, they might be able to make good use of those higher ratios.
When I was younger I just stood up and mashed the pedals. Now I'm that I'm well into Old Faht status I'm all about spinning those easier gears. Ride what makes sense & enjoy that 🍕
Just switched from a Shimano 105 with a 11-34 cassette and 50-34 front crankset on my hybrid road bike to a SRAM GX AXS 1x with a 10-52 and a 40t crank. Fewer gears, greater simplicity in shifting, and much larger range. I'm 70 years old and grinding it out on long climbs was straining my knees and exhausting legs and lungs. Yes! Fewer gears with a wider range, especially on the low end, is a world of improvement!
As of right now, I'd like to see the ability to tune the existing 11/12 speed cassette range more than we can now. I'd give up those 9 - 11 tooth small cogs so I could have a 12 or 13 tooth low end and have smaller steps in between gears at other points in the cassette.
Exactly. I'm tempted to swap out my 11 tooth cog with a 12, or go with a 13 as my highest gear and try to find a cog to fit somewhere in the cassette that I'll actually use. Hardly ever use the 11 tooth cog. But, it just might qualify as something from the Cave of Bad Ideas .....
Best group range I've used for road is a Shimano GRX 48/31t chainrings with a 40t cassette in the rear. I use this for gravel racing and BWR's with those horrible 23% grades and it gets my fat 90kg body up them no problem. Even some MTB trails. I have just put a 46/30t crank and a 42t on the rear. It's a little jumpy on the shifts, but will work if you're looking for a wide 2X with those low gears. Otherwise 3X is the best way to go for Max wide range with smooth shifts.
Agreed! After getting a MTB with a 1x12, it really changed my perspective. I've had 3x10 and 2x11 road or touring bikes and thought I needed at least a 2x. However I definitely value range over speeds now. I'm considering building a 12 speed pinion touring bike for it's 600% range.
MicroSHIFT Advent 2x9 w/ 28/44 chainrings on a mountain double crankset, the Advent Trekking front derailleur coupled with the Advent Long Cage rear derailleur and an 11-42 Advent cassette gives you 600% range for a lot less money than a gearbox. That's what I'm running on my Fairdale Weekender adventure bike. I pull a trailer with it as well as using it for commuting and bikepacking. Flat bars with MicroSHIFT Advent shifters. The bike can run everything from 650bx47 to 29x2.1 EDIT: Plus, you can shift the rear gears under load; something you can't do with a gearbox.
I gotta say Microshift is doing big things with Advent, Advent X, and Acolyte. I personally owned an Advent and have ridden a few Advent X systems and they honesty caused me less problems than my current Sram NX with just under it's range.
Bikepacking and/or dirt touring present the greatest challenge. I need gears to climb really steep grades and even trails with a substantial load while also spending a fair amount of time spinning on smooth pavement. A traditional mountain triple still covers this range, although with a lot of overlap and complexity. Bikepacking with a 1x set up with a 28 or 30 front and wide range cassette works well until spinning for miles on pavement. I really want to try a well thought out double, like a 26/40 or 28/40 front with a wide range cassette.
For me it’s less about overall range and more about 1) how low is the low gear and 2) how small are the gaps between gears. I tried a wide range 1x system and hated it because I had pretty big gaps between gears at the lower end of the range. I don’t have that issue with my 2x. Funny thing is the 2x was also a few grams lighter. Those 50 tooth cassettes are seriously heavy.
Hi Chris, yes I agree with you about gaps. I am experimenting with 1x system with 11-42T sprocket to minimize gap, and 40T crank to get a low 0.95 ratio for climbing. Another possibility would be to use 11-36T sprocket with sub compact 2x crank, perhaps a 46/30.
I'm happy with 11 speed two-by and 12 speed one-by. I think that's the sweet spot, plenty of options from low to high. Range is definitely key, get the right gears, not just more.
1x11, 11-42 is where I've put most of my miles in the past couple of years. For the riding I do, I'd like to increase my range a bit and go to 12s, but that's definitely specific to my CX/roadie/gravel thing that I'm using it for. Eagle for my MTB has been darn near perfect. Where I'm not willing to compromise is on having a clutched derailleur- it's just too nice not having to deal with dropped chains on every ride.
I 100% agree with your points. It is something I had to learn the hard way when I did not know anything about cassettes and chainrings being new to cycling. I know on the top end gears having smaller jumps between gears is very useful especially on long stretches of flat roads with only slight gradient changes basically false flats. But, on those big climbs I want bigger jumps between gears. I do think that 10 speeds and 11 speeds strikes an optimum range between gears. 9 speeds is fine when I'm riding a commuter bike. If I'm riding an 8 or a 7 speed then a triple in the front is necessary to give me the gear range I want.
I think it has all been done to support the sexy look of a mullet gear setup. That way you can keep the range and the looks. Plus a giant rear cog says "I'm serious".
Totally agree, I now have a GRX 46x30 crankset, but I would be better off with a 44x28 or 42x26 crankset. I wished Shimano made these... I just searched Google for 44x28 crankset, and I see Rene Herse makes them... but costs $500. Also, I think a lot of the discussion about gear range is about the cogs on the cassette, but I think if we had more choice in the chainrings combo on the cranks, we could all find the ideal combination. I personally think those 11x52 cassettes look dumb, and prefer a double chainring. And if you have for example a 11x34 cassette, the jumps between the cogs is much smaller, which i prefer, because you have smoother shifting. If you ride on a gravel bike on the flat tarmac, if you run a 1x with a 36T chainring, you hardly going to move.
I have a single speed, thats enough gears for most rides. When going up or down mountains it is nice to have an old school 12 speed (double in the front, 6 in back).
Sometimes it's not even a wider range but a DIFFERENT range, the big upgrade on my bike was going from a 3x9 (44-32-22, 11--34) to a2x9 (46-30, 11-36). As far as gear inches go it has almost exactly the same width of range, but the new setup had a higher range. It could go as fast as I needed it to, the granny gear was basically never used anyway, and the cleaner line also meant I didn't have to keep switching out middle chainrings. All in all, a good upgrade (and pretty cheap, to boot.)
More range is always nice. More speeds is just a decent way of accomplishing this on a 1x setup. But on my previous bike I had a 3x8 (52,42,30x12-32), and the gear range was something that I always loved about that bike. I didn't use the granny ring very much, but always enjoyed it being there as an option. Also liked being able to put the bike in a hard gear like 52x12 and just spin slow on long paved descents.
I currently have 17-112" (~660%) from a 3x9 with 16 distinct ratios for all-road use. 48-15 (82") is a good flat road cruising ratio with decent chainline and a couple of longer ratios (13-11) for tailwinds and downhills. Most time it is 1x9 middle ring (26-84") , and for steeper/looser stuff 24 to 36-32-28-24 gives decent climbing ratios. Close ratios are not useful when gradient is constantly changing and range is the key factor. Where it is flatter less range and closer ratios work better. It has been fun to play with drivetrain setups for different conditions, friction-shift has kept the cost down and allows wide freedom of drivetrain components and easy change. I like 3x7 on another bike, but 3x6 starts to have some very big jumps if range (24-114") is maintained.
Yet another mountain-biker speaking, and i run a 1x11 (28t f. chainring and an 11-46 Sunrace cassette). The setup works fine for the local mountains (Reno/Tahoe area) and should work fine when I ride up to Fox Island, Wa. Having a clutch on the rear derailleur and the alternating tooth setup on the front (ovalish) chainring definitely helps in the prevention of chain-drops and being able to maintain a steady power band throughout the gears is a huge plus too. I'd have liked to bought an 11-50 or 51 cassette but, I'll see how the 28t chainring interacts with my current cassette on the trip (bike fully loaded) before I make the call to go to an 11-50 or 51. The (obsolete) 3x setup has too many repeating gears and too many non-cyclists cross-chain said setup (since most shops don't always properly educate the folks how to properly operate the gears). It's bad enough when I see a pro cross-chaining on a 2x...
Currently running a Microshift Advent X 11-42 9 Speed and 38t chainring and find it's ample for me in hilly Eastern Pennsylvania. I've had double and triples on past bikes and my current 1x setup has been my favorite and easiest to use. Sometimes it is nice not having to worry about shifting between rings. Less moving parts and hardware doesn't hurt either!
Completely agree ! I setup an advent-x 11-48/38T and found the range with 10 speeds works great for me. Maybe when I grow up, I'll stretch the dollars for an eagle10-52/1x , but I know I don't need 12 speeds.
Great topic! I have an old school Shimano 9-speed Alivio cassette 11-28T and a 3X 48x38x28T crankset. I can go up and down the steepest hills without more gears because the triple chainrings give me full range. The advantage, I think, is there is less cross chaining on a 9-speed cassette making the gears more usable. My other road bike uses a Shimano 105 11-34T cassette and 2X 50-34T chainrings. It's good, but I like the Alevio setup better.
I like the simplicty of the 1x. Have been ditching chainrings on bikes since 2008 when I bought a Redline D440 which was a rigid steel 29er with a 1x8. It didn't have enough range because nobody made wide range cassettes back then, but it worked well as a casual rider for gravel riding in flatter terrain. A few years later, I bought another Redline D440 which was a 2x8 and I ended up putting a suspension fork on it and it made a half decent MTB. It was around then (2011-2012) that 2x was replacing 3x on mountain bikes and compact doubles were well entrenched in the road world. I've been running 1x on my off road stuff since 2015. I started with 11-40 10 speed, then went 11-42 11 speed and last year spread the range a bit with a bigger 11-46 cassette. I got a new 12 speed SRAM Eagle setup last Spring and that is great. I have been running an E Thirteen Helix R 9-50 12 speed cassette and that beats the Eagle's 520% range with 555%. That setup seems like a good answer to those wanting a 1x setup. You could run a 40-42T chainring and have a great climbing gear with decent top end. The Shimano 10-51T stuff would also work well with it's 10T cog givi g you a decent top gear with a larger chainring. That's my suggestion if you need big range and want 1x. Nothing wrong with 2x if you need even more range. I'm running a Microshift Advent 9 speed group on my flat bar gravel rig thats an 11-42T paired with a 40T chainring and that's fine for my flatter terrain. Would at least like an AdventX 11-48T if I rode more in the hills west of my immediate area.
Spot-on! It's all about range, and for me that means a bigger large cog in the rear... started years ago with a 25T cog and standard chainrings on my road bike, today, 36T with a compact crank. On my gravel bike I have compact crank and 42T cog in the rear :) Wolftooth derailleur hanger extender made this "evolution" to larger cogs possible :)
Lower gears would be a start. The Shimano and sram don't go low enough. I'm going to have to resort to building a bike because complete bikes with the big name components might kiss .9 in gear ratio. Not good enough. Loved the pizza explanation!
@@barrytantlinger1033 I agree. What the issue for me is the size of the front chainring. I'm thinking 46-38 as a big ring and 32- 36 second ring. As for cassette 11 x 36-42 If I were going 1 X it would be 36-42 front and 11 x 42. The question is how many gears would you actually use
Yes range low and high are why 3x still rule. I am still riding 3x7 and 3x8 for that reason, I'm spinning up while single rings are struggling in their granny, in addition I'm passing on the down still pushing watts as those I pass are spun out in their top gear.
This is one of the points the first got me into this channel. The industry has come around some, my compact double and 1128 cassette seemed very generous compared to what some of my friends were riding, getting up to a 34 cassette on a production bike was almost unfathomable at that time
100% Agree with this analysis. No matter how many speeds are available to me, my main concern is my lowest gear, being ideally somewhere in the 0.8-0.85:1 ratio, and my top gear around 87-90 gear inches (yes I know I mixed my units). That's a range that I know will get me around, up, and over everything I usually ride. The wide range 9 speed cassettes get me there, but my main concern is forced obsolescence from the industry. 8 and 9 speed drivetrains seem to be a good compromise for durable components and range. However, those are considered "entry level" by the industry and the components that go with them, such as shifters and derailleurs are usually lower quality/lower tech regarding materials. There's probably room in the market for some really nicely made 9 speed groupsets on par with the latest 12 speed offerings.
I still run a 3x7. And a few 3x9s. And a 2x10 And a 1x12. With the 2x10 currently being my favorite not just for range, but for also being able a good pedaling gear with enough variability to not have to shift around the front ring too often.
I just finished a flat bar gravel bike build (on a cool, vintage Cannondale frame) with a 1x10. It’s fine. Plenty of range and easy to set up. It works.
100%. I have the same range on 9 speed 105 group set and an 11 speed. It really isn’t that noticeable when I switch between bikes. Albeit they did make a few nice ergonomic changes to the levers - but even that isn’t huge.
I actually like having both range and granularity, especially for longe-distance events such as (double) century rides. Having a proper cadence is key to avoiding exhaustion while keeping a good pace. Though I do like having a single chainring, so thanks Campagnolo for the ekar.
My wife and I are pretty old school and our bikes show it. I am still happily riding 3 x 9. I don't mind shifting between 3 chainrings. The 26 tooth small chainring paired with a 12 - 27 cassette is good enough for mostly flat to at most gently rolling hills Southeastern Wisconsin. And the 36 tooth middle ring is actually fine for riding at a leisurely pace. Honestly, if I had to get rid of my triple and go with a double, I could probably remove the big ring, switch the middle ring to something like a 39 or 40 tooth, and call it a day. But the big ring isn't hurting anyone so I will just leave as is. If I lived in a place with more steep climbs, I might have to re-think the 12 - 27 cassette and go with something that went as big as a 34 or even 36 tooth gear. My wife never got used to using a triple. she was constantly cross chaining and grinding gears getting stuck in the big ring on her 3 x 8 setup, then panicking and trying to shift from the big ring all the way to the little one under load, which didn't always work out so well. So we removed the big ring and turned it into a 2 x 8, and went from 11 - 25 cassette to 11 - 32. There was some expense getting a new rear derailleur, but because it was 8 speed, the cost wasn't too bad. Now she has bigger jumps between gears, but a much more useable range. And because the big ring is actually a middle ring, cross chaining is no longer a problem. I know this is a hack, but it worked.
Thanks for the discussion, Russ and cool opinions from everyone. I just think back to my childhood bikes with one speed, gas fitter tubes and none fitted me well... Now I have two 10-speed bikes: 46/30, 11-34 for "Roadish" fun and very light touring. 38/24, 11-36 with enough gears to get me to the trail and plenty for up hills c/w a moderate load. (Add food, cook-set and some spare clothing.) Firstly, I enjoy the crossover (redundancy) of mid range gears as this is where I may choose to finesse my cadence rather than the top or bottom (walk up or coast down). Secondly, within reason there are plenty of 2x10 components (chains/cassettes) available in the UK- even now so I'm glad not to be in a "12-speed fight" that I can't win!
It's an important question if you use the same bike for loaded touring and regular day rides. And yes, I'm particular about cadence, purely from a comfort/ergonomic perspective
We have a Shimano 105 group set that's 10 years old. Hubby is having them fitted to a 1990 Peugeot frame set. He is having a 10 speed block with the largest sprocket being 32/34. Reason for this is the Campy group set is worn out.
Ryan Van Duzer rides a Priority 600 bike with a Pinion C1.12 gearbox having a 600% range and 12 evenly-spaced ratios. He seems to be able to get up and down some incredible inclines. I have a similar, but older and heavier, bike. I love the gear range, robustness and the very low maintenance (incl Gates belt). Perfect for riding party pace!
I also think we need to push back against the "more gears gives you a better spread" marketing because one extra cog doesn't reduce the step between all the cogs on the cassette. Usually it just gives you two in the place of one (like, giving you a 15-17-19-21 spread instead of 15-18-21) while the rest of the cassette is the same. Maybe at best it spreads out 3 or 4 cogs at the larger end of the cassette, but if you have cogs that are 2 or 3 teeth difference, you can't reduce the spacing there unless you go drastically smaller in overall range. So unless going to 12-speed (or 11, or 10) addresses the one gearing jump that bothers you regularly, I question if it's worth it at all.
due to inconsistency of routes here in the Philippines where you don't expect the kind of road you'll gonna deal with... I mean the variety of road types here is vast and complicated in each region that's why I still use my 3x10 up to this moment... wish that changing chainrings is simple and easy....
i went from 1x10 to 2x10 to 2x11 to 1x12 and i think each of those changes made sense. i did feel the difference everytime i changed but at 1x12 i mean the increments are definitely fine enough and i dont want an extra cog to add more weight anyway. i'd much rather innovation go into creating better range.
I finally got a bike today :) A gentleman had it for sale on FB but he decided to give it to me for free b/c of my hardship situation :) Anyways, my friend and her husband went to pick it up for me today and then took it to a friend to have it "tuned up" as they put it before they bring it to me :) Very thoughtful of them. I hope to have it by this weekend and I'm looking forward to letting you know what kind it is :) By the way, I'm 5'2" so the problem I've had is finding a used bike that I can afford and that I can actually get onto - thus far the bikes I'd looked at had been way too tall for me. This one was measured at 31" from the floor to the seat, which when I looked at that here at home, it was a perfect bike for my size. I'll try to write you back and let you know what kind of bike it is :)
I'm mostly a 3x person. Had a 3x7 for very long, got a 3x10 for commuting to my first job. It was a nightmare to maintain (expensive) and I wore out the middle front chainring. It got stolen and I got a cellar 3x6 from a friend and it amazes me how well this bike accelerates. I guess it's a very stiff frame, maybe a 90s mtb. Now my bicycle park is filling up, latest addition is a 3 speed folder which I think I love. Wiĺl change the rear sprocket I guess to make it faster, but range is limiting there. If I were to look for a bike again it would likely have 8 cogs in the back: 6/7 cogs don't get any more love from manufacturers, 10 cogs wore out to fast for me. I'm also into hub gearing.
Great call out here. I’ve become a hub gearing convert over the years and in many respects agree with having a larger range of gears. My gravel bike uses an 11spd Shimano hub and I really enjoy the range of it. That said, I’d love to move to a Rohloff and get the increase number of gears and larger range. I plan on upgrading my Brommie to increase the gears and range soon. Getting a wider range will be so much nicer for some upcoming trips.
12 speed eventually won me over completely. I ran 1x9 and 1x10 (11-42) before switching over to 1x12. The reason I love 12 speed is, like you said, granularity. I ride a lot of cross-country and I love long 3+ hour rides, so having control over my cadence/power is huge for me. The range of a 1x12 also works great for me, I can run a 30 up front for bikepacking, a 34 for racing or a 32 for day to day single-track and have my range totally dialed. I don't love the extra maintenence to keep it running perfect but an extra hanger in the hip pack solves a lot of problems trail side until you can get back to the shop. I personally don't have a need for ny more gears. For me and my style (on a mountain bike mind you) 12 is plenty, filling in some crucial gaps that I found with 9 and 10 speed.
I went 1x 9 speed on my MTB and 1x 11 speed on my CX bike. Live in a flat area rarely ever ride mountains. I use a triple 9 speed on my loaded touring bike!
1x8 because I grind down the drivetrain on my daily comute. Much cheaper and I only use 3 or 4 gears. Thinking about a Sachs 3-speed hub. (No hills in my area)
I agree with range vs. number of gears. As a mountain biker who was constantly dropping the chain in the front, I don't miss the front derailleur. But... maybe it was more about the lack of clutch? Gotta say, I don't think I've tried a front derailleur since I started running clutch derailleurs
Wide Range 2x9 is the shizzle if you only have 1 bike. 28/44 in the front, 11-42 in the back. MicroSHIFT Advent 9 speed front and rear derailleurs and shifters FTW.
I still use my 10 speed 11-46T cassette paired with 34T chainring. Not the fastest but gets the job done. I sometimes change to 38T chainring if were going flatter roads but that's very rarely happens.
Interesting- I both agree and disagree. I appreciate the range of eagle on my gravel bike, but the steps, especially at the smaller cogs was driving me crazy on the road. what I found is that I end up using most of the larger gears, but rarely the smaller. So, I ended up getting a force cassette and reducing my chainring to 32t, which lined up pretty close to the 42T I was normally using. Does it limit my top speed? absolutely. But I figured this- if I'm doing 25MPH, I'm likely going down hill- who cares about pedalling then! 😀 So far its been working pretty well. I still have the eagle that I run on my 650b wheelset (and use Archer to handle the shifting of the GX derailleur)
I have a 1x now and honestly am fine with that for most of the riding that I do. 9 speeds currently, maybe 10 down the line, but I really wish I had the 12 as my top gear.
I got a 1x8, 34t oval chainring and 11/40 cassette. I got it as stock on my new cheap mtb just thought id upgrade later, but amazingly, this is enough...
Range for sure. My conclusion is that for a do-all bike that ~5:1 rang is needed. I tried 11-42 with 3.8:1 and hated life at both ends of the range. 11-50 with 4.5:1 is tolerable, but I end up rolling down things I's prefer to pedal down, and don't want to give up anything on my granny gear. With the 10-51 I've almost never been left wanting (well, wanting better legs, but the gears are fine). I did retrofit a FD with a 34/24 set of front rings onto my 11-42 bike and it have something like a 5.4:1 and that is a great combo that has never left me frustrated, though my 1X bikes keep getting me out of good habits with my FD.
You can only go so small on the smallest gear of the cassette or else there wouldn’t be enough teeth for the chain to bite. Larger rear cogs for low gears are heavier and require long cage derailleurs. Front chainrings can only be so big because of frame limitations. I run single front chainrings for simplicity and just coast over 25 mph, but 2x or 3x would be better for range.
Wider ranges would be nice for sure. I keep one of my bikes set up with; 1x 44 crank and a 12-32 7s cassette. It's pretty much enough to do all the riding in my area at a very casual speed, with very little maintenance, and very low costs to keep up. Sometimes it's nice to have a wide range on something you don't have to worry too much about.
in uphill my gears is my legs and knees, I'm good in 9-10 speed, 11-15 speed is for mtb racers. hehe, practice our legs/knees in uphill section will be the best ever contentment for me. :)
I don't need more gears. I just need just the right ratios for me. I'm mainly commuting and running errands on my bicycle, but there are quite a bit hills on my routes. My previous bike had 3x8 and I mainly used the middle chainring on the front and first 6 on the back. Now I have 2x10 and the ratios I use are about the same... I might use one easier gear quite often as it is more easily available... so I'm now using 7 different gears mostly. I have tried to get more granularity to the range I use most, but the problem seems to be that cassettes available with finer granularity tend to be mainly for road cycling. All the cogs are very small on those. If you want those lower ratios with tose, I'd need to find really small front chainrings, and that would mean I'd need to change the crankset too. I don't really get why most cassettes have 11 as the smallest cog. It usually doesn't even work that good and I think it was even proved somewhere that the smaller cogs tend to be less efficient as the chain has to make tighter turns. I'd love if there were more cassettes where the smallest cog was 12 or even 13.
Amen brother. It's range that counts. Perhaps the people who have gone all-in with 1x drivetrains are missing out because I'm fairly sure that my Alfine 8 speed hub has as wide a range as some of theirs, just with bigger steps. However, even that isn't necessarily a deal-breaker because even when I only had 7-speed, I often shifted through several sprockets at once to get where I wanted to be (here in Yorkshire, you are usually going up steeply or down steeply) so big steps are fine for me and I seldom want to micro-adjust which is what all the in-between ones do. Can I be cheeky and suggest that those running 1x drivetrains try a 2x or even 3x for size? This massively improves the range (imagine that in addition to your 34 or 38, you can also have a 22 and a 48?). Tempting eh? Have fun everyone.
Exactly. More gears is about cadence. Those of us who are not either racers or fitness fanatics are generally more interested in range than gears. (There are also those who are impressed by the latest-and-greatest... but few of them are gonna be lookin' at Path Less Pedaled.)
Big Gears will come looking for you Russ! Working out a new Gearing setup I think about the bottom gear ratio 1st these days, I know I get a good top end and steady flat road ratio (mid-block) As my riding goes from wet MTB dirt to smooth road 1 went with x2, but knowing my 22 gears would only really give me ~14 ratios (I wanted 105 with hydo brakes as I like stopping) I can sprint so I get some use out of a 50/11 (or even 53/11 on zwift), it ends up being vanity over practicality and most don't need it, I ride light, so for me it's not about grinding up 10 mile inclines with my body weight in bags. Gear Calc's are a nerdy must.
still running 3x9 on my 2 bikes. Gravel and MTB - touring bike. Only reason why I am considering to upgrade my MTB is because of the chain slap when I go thru trails, other than that I'm good.
Greater range is more important than the. Number of individual gears that you have. That being said the gearing you have should be driven by your need, as an extreme example a 2 x 12 dura ace may right for the TDF but if you live n Holland 🇳🇱 and are just pottering around a town then a single speed is probably the optimum gearing for you. If you are “all road” the majority of the offering from Shimano, Campy and SRAM don’t offer the range unless you are mix and match the groupsets. On my Gorilla Monsoon I run a 2 x 10 with 11 speed XT rear derailleur 11-40 10 speed sunrace cassette and Campagnolo front derailleur, bar end shifters set to friction with a 42/26 spa cycles crank. = reliable smooth shifting with a massive range and great for load hauling. My road bike on the other hand is all 8000 Ultegra with 50/34 with a 11/36 Sunrace rear cassette - a good range for road riding.
Great chat. There is a range race going on under the majors between Box, Advent, and Microshift updating all those old school H hubs to cassettes 12-46 in a 1X pie plate. I want one for one of my 90’s MTB. An entire drive train and shifter with quality parts for $150 (US)
I have a 12spd Sram Eagle drive train, but would prefer a 9 or 8 spd even if I could get the same range. Producers never talk about range though, that ends up being a confusing math problem you want to figure it out.
I like when you discuss bike tech vs real usage. But I do wish you would include some of the data like you did from the 1x vs 2x video. I bought a new bike and made decisions based on that data and it was spot on.
I agree in principle, I think the highest number of "speeds" I've got is 11. Mainly the advantage of more is the "granularity" as you say, but even at 11 there are those times when you wish you had that in-between gear! I would sweat in more if I was racing, but at party pace it's not a problem. I am more put off with the arms race over ever larger cassettes; over 44T and you should change the front ring to a smaller ring! Or get a double up front and go to a smaller cassette. Those huge cassettes are too heavy!
I have 1x10 on my gravel explorer and really only use 3 gears - smallest go fast, biggest climb anything, and my “pseudo-single speed” in the middle sweet spot for 90% of the time
A 3x drivetrain will be the next new thing in a few years.
It's so old, it's new again.
I'm old enough now, where this is more often the case with just about every aspect of my life.
I had eventually acquired all the parts for a complete 105 triple 10 speed group. I'd started cycling on 7x3 in the '90's and the triple road group really opened my eyes. When you live in a hilly area, you want to control your efforts in order not to maxing out the heart rate on every long ride. The triple has a place expect that few people appreciate it compared to those brainwashed on the latest and greatest marketing ploy from the bike industry.
@@SurpriseMeJT There is no mode of transport we use that is more diverse than bicycles. There's a place for everything from fixies to 3x.
Actually Grant from Rivendell was just praising 3X...
but with a 12 speed rear cassette there will be 36 speed bicycles.
I agree that range is more important than number of gears. I would go further : most people have "gear range" issues at only one end of the range (for most people it's at the low end). So mosy people don't need more range, they just need to center the range on their needs. Often that just means a new chainring.
This is me.
@RollinRat That's a good way to put it, and exactly what my gramps has been saying after 60 years of cycling. A 3 speed hub for if you're in a mountainous area like the Rockies. Change the front gear size to get the range where it needs to be.
@RollinRat Derailers do great for cheap, they're everywhere. I've got a basic 80's flat handlebar Cr/Mo steel bike with a 3x7 and it's great for going around the hills terrain here, but I find myself mostly just using 2 and 1, 3, and 6 for most of the inclines. Which is a good reason to go for a 3 speed hub for my commuter bike, when it's just 10 to 20 minutes each way for most trips. A single speed would be neat for maximum bike workout for strength, but if I did that I'd want to find something vintage, have a little bit of a collection. The Archer 3 have a .667, direct, and 1.667x gears, which covers most uses, and for direct uses none of the gearing and so is more efficient, mostly like a fixed gear most of the time. The others are for when you really need it.
A double chainring solves range and steps between gears as compared to a 1X drivetrain. For a double, that one additional ring can equal additional 3 or 4 cogs on the back. I'm perfectly fine with my 10 and 11 speed bikes as long as I have a double chainring.
Agree, for everything except enduro or agressive mtb, 2x10 is all you need.
More range on a 2X is needed too.
I totally agree with this. I sometimes ride with loads on my bike and at various terrains. Double chainring just seems so much more practical in actual use than my one 1x bike.
A 2x can give you top gears and low gears though. So,e setups are 600+% range where 1x is max 520%. 2x11 XT is where it’s at for me.
Absolutely, and the 2x setup allows for easier downshifting under load. Instead of climbing up the cassette to get to a lower gear one can quickly shift down to the smaller chainring without as much fuss from the drive train.
11 speed 12-30 cassette and a 40/26 crank is perfection for me for the western NC gravel mountains. It all depends on where you ride, your load, and fitness level.
This would be my perfect setup too, but can you tell me who makes a 40/26 crank? and which front derailleur you use with it?
@RollinRat It can be finicky to setup and it does take some finesse to shift it well, but I like it. I used a SRAM Yaw FD.
Take a look at White Industries and Rene Herse. SRAM's 46/33 isn't terrible for a production option. Just depends on your terrain and preferred cadence.
@RollinRat I had enough room to get the FD low enough to shift well. My bigger issue was getting the angle just perfect. Once I found that, it actually shifted well. I imagine you could set this up with a Shimano FD as well, but my experience was with a SRAM FD. Crazy, but on another bike of mine, I have a SRAM double left shifter controlling a Shimano 10sp CX FD with 2x Rotor oval ring setup (11sp road bike). FD shifting is money! Works extremely well. Play around with a few things. I own a bike shop, so I play with this all the time. I try all kinds of things on my personal bikes so I can learn something. SRAM 2x can be frustrating, but I can usually get it working well. Good luck with your projects.
Still rocking my 3x10 drivetrain w/ 900% gear range. The only ratio I rarely use is the 44 : 11 but the rest all get used. I ride the 3x front more like a 1x, just that I have a choice of 3 different chain rings, one for the road, one for the rolling hills and one for the dirt.
900% gear range?! How? I've got almost 700% on my 3x10 but I've got loads of chain slop in the small:small configuration. In fact, on my smallest chainring, I usually only run the 4 largest cogs to maintain enough chain tension.
Mountain biker here. I recently switched from a 11-50 11 speed to a 11-50 9 speed. For me it's so much better. I really only use about 4 of the gears to be honest. I'm running a 32t chainwheel, but I could absolutely see this thing on a gravel or touring bike with a double up front. Maybe a 47-48 or so.
I got 2x8 here, from the climbing 39/36 to the falling 53/11, for me it's perfect in my hilly urban environment. Got an 11-40 cassette stored if my knees need it in the future
Last month I switched out the cassette on my sons 7 speed fat bike that he uses to get to school in powdery snow or slush. It went from 11-28 to 14-42. Same amount of gears but each gear gets a lot more use.
Adding cogs to a 1x system increases the range additively (incrementally). Adding a front derailleur increases the range multiplicatively. My 3x9 setup has a range of 6.18. To get that with a 1x system would require an 11-68 cassette instead of the 11-34 I have. That would need an RD with a take-up capacity of 57 teeth. My Deore has a rated capacity of 45 though my setup actually uses 47 and works OK. I use the front derailleur as a high-medium-low range selector. It’s true I never really need the highest available ratios. On the other hand, if I loaned my bike to a stronger person, they might be able to make good use of those higher ratios.
When I was younger I just stood up and mashed the pedals. Now I'm that I'm well into Old Faht status I'm all about spinning those easier gears. Ride what makes sense & enjoy that 🍕
My old knees feel your pain.
Just switched from a Shimano 105 with a 11-34 cassette and 50-34 front crankset on my hybrid road bike to a SRAM GX AXS 1x with a 10-52 and a 40t crank. Fewer gears, greater simplicity in shifting, and much larger range. I'm 70 years old and grinding it out on long climbs was straining my knees and exhausting legs and lungs. Yes! Fewer gears with a wider range, especially on the low end, is a world of improvement!
As of right now, I'd like to see the ability to tune the existing 11/12 speed cassette range more than we can now. I'd give up those 9 - 11 tooth small cogs so I could have a 12 or 13 tooth low end and have smaller steps in between gears at other points in the cassette.
Exactly. I'm tempted to swap out my 11 tooth cog with a 12, or go with a 13 as my highest gear and try to find a cog to fit somewhere in the cassette that I'll actually use. Hardly ever use the 11 tooth cog. But, it just might qualify as something from the Cave of Bad Ideas .....
I totally agree with your point of view! Range is so much more important. Love it.
Best group range I've used for road is a Shimano GRX 48/31t chainrings with a 40t cassette in the rear. I use this for gravel racing and BWR's with those horrible 23% grades and it gets my fat 90kg body up them no problem. Even some MTB trails.
I have just put a 46/30t crank and a 42t on the rear. It's a little jumpy on the shifts, but will work if you're looking for a wide 2X with those low gears.
Otherwise 3X is the best way to go for Max wide range with smooth shifts.
Agreed! After getting a MTB with a 1x12, it really changed my perspective. I've had 3x10 and 2x11 road or touring bikes and thought I needed at least a 2x. However I definitely value range over speeds now. I'm considering building a 12 speed pinion touring bike for it's 600% range.
MicroSHIFT Advent 2x9 w/ 28/44 chainrings on a mountain double crankset, the Advent Trekking front derailleur coupled with the Advent Long Cage rear derailleur and an 11-42 Advent cassette gives you 600% range for a lot less money than a gearbox. That's what I'm running on my Fairdale Weekender adventure bike. I pull a trailer with it as well as using it for commuting and bikepacking. Flat bars with MicroSHIFT Advent shifters. The bike can run everything from 650bx47 to 29x2.1
EDIT: Plus, you can shift the rear gears under load; something you can't do with a gearbox.
I gotta say Microshift is doing big things with Advent, Advent X, and Acolyte. I personally owned an Advent and have ridden a few Advent X systems and they honesty caused me less problems than my current Sram NX with just under it's range.
Exactly. Most riders will be happy with 8,9 or 10s. I am building one with the acolyte. I find 8s good enough for my kinda riding.
Bikepacking and/or dirt touring present the greatest challenge. I need gears to climb really steep grades and even trails with a substantial load while also spending a fair amount of time spinning on smooth pavement. A traditional mountain triple still covers this range, although with a lot of overlap and complexity. Bikepacking with a 1x set up with a 28 or 30 front and wide range cassette works well until spinning for miles on pavement. I really want to try a well thought out double, like a 26/40 or 28/40 front with a wide range cassette.
Absolutely blows my mind how I can't seem to get an off the shelf 44-28 double chainset from the big brands. I have to go aftermarket. It's crazy!
Totally agree, Russ. I wish someone would come out with a super light 9 or 10 speed 11-46 cassette.
RIGHT ON!!! Give me more range all day long. Great topic & so well said. I hope somebody up there in drivetrain land is listening...
For me it’s less about overall range and more about 1) how low is the low gear and 2) how small are the gaps between gears. I tried a wide range 1x system and hated it because I had pretty big gaps between gears at the lower end of the range. I don’t have that issue with my 2x. Funny thing is the 2x was also a few grams lighter. Those 50 tooth cassettes are seriously heavy.
Hi Chris, yes I agree with you about gaps. I am experimenting with 1x system with 11-42T sprocket to minimize gap, and 40T crank to get a low 0.95 ratio for climbing. Another possibility would be to use 11-36T sprocket with sub compact 2x crank, perhaps a 46/30.
Outstanding explanation. Even one I could understand. Thanks you. Take care and stay safe, Al
I'm happy with 11 speed two-by and 12 speed one-by. I think that's the sweet spot, plenty of options from low to high. Range is definitely key, get the right gears, not just more.
1x11, 11-42 is where I've put most of my miles in the past couple of years. For the riding I do, I'd like to increase my range a bit and go to 12s, but that's definitely specific to my CX/roadie/gravel thing that I'm using it for. Eagle for my MTB has been darn near perfect.
Where I'm not willing to compromise is on having a clutched derailleur- it's just too nice not having to deal with dropped chains on every ride.
I 100% agree with your points. It is something I had to learn the hard way when I did not know anything about cassettes and chainrings being new to cycling. I know on the top end gears having smaller jumps between gears is very useful especially on long stretches of flat roads with only slight gradient changes basically false flats. But, on those big climbs I want bigger jumps between gears. I do think that 10 speeds and 11 speeds strikes an optimum range between gears. 9 speeds is fine when I'm riding a commuter bike. If I'm riding an 8 or a 7 speed then a triple in the front is necessary to give me the gear range I want.
I think it has all been done to support the sexy look of a mullet gear setup. That way you can keep the range and the looks. Plus a giant rear cog says "I'm serious".
Totally agree, I now have a GRX 46x30 crankset, but I would be better off with a 44x28 or 42x26 crankset. I wished Shimano made these... I just searched Google for 44x28 crankset, and I see Rene Herse makes them... but costs $500.
Also, I think a lot of the discussion about gear range is about the cogs on the cassette, but I think if we had more choice in the chainrings combo on the cranks, we could all find the ideal combination. I personally think those 11x52 cassettes look dumb, and prefer a double chainring. And if you have for example a 11x34 cassette, the jumps between the cogs is much smaller, which i prefer, because you have smoother shifting.
If you ride on a gravel bike on the flat tarmac, if you run a 1x with a 36T chainring, you hardly going to move.
Couldn't agree more. The gear range is more important for most of us.
I have a single speed, thats enough gears for most rides. When going up or down mountains it is nice to have an old school 12 speed (double in the front, 6 in back).
Sometimes it's not even a wider range but a DIFFERENT range, the big upgrade on my bike was going from a 3x9 (44-32-22, 11--34) to a2x9 (46-30, 11-36). As far as gear inches go it has almost exactly the same width of range, but the new setup had a higher range. It could go as fast as I needed it to, the granny gear was basically never used anyway, and the cleaner line also meant I didn't have to keep switching out middle chainrings. All in all, a good upgrade (and pretty cheap, to boot.)
More range is always nice. More speeds is just a decent way of accomplishing this on a 1x setup. But on my previous bike I had a 3x8 (52,42,30x12-32), and the gear range was something that I always loved about that bike. I didn't use the granny ring very much, but always enjoyed it being there as an option. Also liked being able to put the bike in a hard gear like 52x12 and just spin slow on long paved descents.
Agree that range is more important than number.
I currently have 17-112" (~660%) from a 3x9 with 16 distinct ratios for all-road use. 48-15 (82") is a good flat road cruising ratio with decent chainline and a couple of longer ratios (13-11) for tailwinds and downhills. Most time it is 1x9 middle ring (26-84") , and for steeper/looser stuff 24 to 36-32-28-24 gives decent climbing ratios. Close ratios are not useful when gradient is constantly changing and range is the key factor. Where it is flatter less range and closer ratios work better. It has been fun to play with drivetrain setups for different conditions, friction-shift has kept the cost down and allows wide freedom of drivetrain components and easy change. I like 3x7 on another bike, but 3x6 starts to have some very big jumps if range (24-114") is maintained.
Yet another mountain-biker speaking, and i run a 1x11 (28t f. chainring and an 11-46 Sunrace cassette). The setup works fine for the local mountains (Reno/Tahoe area) and should work fine when I ride up to Fox Island, Wa. Having a clutch on the rear derailleur and the alternating tooth setup on the front (ovalish) chainring definitely helps in the prevention of chain-drops and being able to maintain a steady power band throughout the gears is a huge plus too. I'd have liked to bought an 11-50 or 51 cassette but, I'll see how the 28t chainring interacts with my current cassette on the trip (bike fully loaded) before I make the call to go to an 11-50 or 51.
The (obsolete) 3x setup has too many repeating gears and too many non-cyclists cross-chain said setup (since most shops don't always properly educate the folks how to properly operate the gears). It's bad enough when I see a pro cross-chaining on a 2x...
100% agree with your Range comment -- now if only the bike manufactures were as smart as us and listen to your advice.
Currently running a Microshift Advent X 11-42 9 Speed and 38t chainring and find it's ample for me in hilly Eastern Pennsylvania. I've had double and triples on past bikes and my current 1x setup has been my favorite and easiest to use. Sometimes it is nice not having to worry about shifting between rings. Less moving parts and hardware doesn't hurt either!
Completely agree !
I setup an advent-x 11-48/38T and found the range with 10 speeds works great for me.
Maybe when I grow up, I'll stretch the dollars for an eagle10-52/1x , but I know I don't need 12 speeds.
Great topic! I have an old school Shimano 9-speed Alivio cassette 11-28T and a 3X 48x38x28T crankset. I can go up and down the steepest hills without more gears because the triple chainrings give me full range. The advantage, I think, is there is less cross chaining on a 9-speed cassette making the gears more usable. My other road bike uses a Shimano 105 11-34T cassette and 2X 50-34T chainrings. It's good, but I like the Alevio setup better.
I like the simplicty of the 1x. Have been ditching chainrings on bikes since 2008 when I bought a Redline D440 which was a rigid steel 29er with a 1x8. It didn't have enough range because nobody made wide range cassettes back then, but it worked well as a casual rider for gravel riding in flatter terrain. A few years later, I bought another Redline D440 which was a 2x8 and I ended up putting a suspension fork on it and it made a half decent MTB. It was around then (2011-2012) that 2x was replacing 3x on mountain bikes and compact doubles were well entrenched in the road world.
I've been running 1x on my off road stuff since 2015. I started with 11-40 10 speed, then went 11-42 11 speed and last year spread the range a bit with a bigger 11-46 cassette. I got a new 12 speed SRAM Eagle setup last Spring and that is great. I have been running an E Thirteen Helix R 9-50 12 speed cassette and that beats the Eagle's 520% range with 555%. That setup seems like a good answer to those wanting a 1x setup. You could run a 40-42T chainring and have a great climbing gear with decent top end. The Shimano 10-51T stuff would also work well with it's 10T cog givi g you a decent top gear with a larger chainring.
That's my suggestion if you need big range and want 1x. Nothing wrong with 2x if you need even more range. I'm running a Microshift Advent 9 speed group on my flat bar gravel rig thats an 11-42T paired with a 40T chainring and that's fine for my flatter terrain. Would at least like an AdventX 11-48T if I rode more in the hills west of my immediate area.
Spot-on! It's all about range, and for me that means a bigger large cog in the rear... started years ago with a 25T cog and standard chainrings on my road bike, today, 36T with a compact crank. On my gravel bike I have compact crank and 42T cog in the rear :) Wolftooth derailleur hanger extender made this "evolution" to larger cogs possible :)
Lower gears would be a start. The Shimano and sram don't go low enough. I'm going to have to resort to building a bike because complete bikes with the big name components might kiss .9 in gear ratio. Not good enough.
Loved the pizza explanation!
Smaller cranksets should be more common. Most of us never push a 50/11 or 50/12.
@@barrytantlinger1033 I agree. What the issue for me is the size of the front chainring. I'm thinking 46-38 as a big ring and 32- 36 second ring. As for cassette 11 x 36-42
If I were going 1 X it would be 36-42 front and 11 x 42. The question is how many gears would you actually use
Yes range low and high are why 3x still rule. I am still riding 3x7 and 3x8 for that reason, I'm spinning up while single rings are struggling in their granny, in addition I'm passing on the down still pushing watts as those I pass are spun out in their top gear.
This is one of the points the first got me into this channel. The industry has come around some, my compact double and 1128 cassette seemed very generous compared to what some of my friends were riding, getting up to a 34 cassette on a production bike was almost unfathomable at that time
100% Agree with this analysis. No matter how many speeds are available to me, my main concern is my lowest gear, being ideally somewhere in the 0.8-0.85:1 ratio, and my top gear around 87-90 gear inches (yes I know I mixed my units). That's a range that I know will get me around, up, and over everything I usually ride. The wide range 9 speed cassettes get me there, but my main concern is forced obsolescence from the industry. 8 and 9 speed drivetrains seem to be a good compromise for durable components and range. However, those are considered "entry level" by the industry and the components that go with them, such as shifters and derailleurs are usually lower quality/lower tech regarding materials. There's probably room in the market for some really nicely made 9 speed groupsets on par with the latest 12 speed offerings.
I’m a big fan of the micro shift advent x group set. Low cost and wide range!
I still run a 3x7.
And a few 3x9s.
And a 2x10
And a 1x12.
With the 2x10 currently being my favorite not just for range, but for also being able a good pedaling gear with enough variability to not have to shift around the front ring too often.
I just finished a flat bar gravel bike build (on a cool, vintage Cannondale frame) with a 1x10.
It’s fine. Plenty of range and easy to set up. It works.
Not so important the number of gears, but having the *right* gears, at least the right ones for you and your riding...
I agree, so many road bikers never ride the 50x11 gear combination. You do need the RIGHT gears, and also the range that you actually use.
100%. I have the same range on 9 speed 105 group set and an 11 speed. It really isn’t that noticeable when I switch between bikes. Albeit they did make a few nice ergonomic changes to the levers - but even that isn’t huge.
you're absolutely right about more range instead of more gears!!
Agreed. Box components is on to something with their prime 9 line.
Yes, for myself I'd prioritize range over the number of gears.
I actually like having both range and granularity, especially for longe-distance events such as (double) century rides. Having a proper cadence is key to avoiding exhaustion while keeping a good pace. Though I do like having a single chainring, so thanks Campagnolo for the ekar.
My wife and I are pretty old school and our bikes show it.
I am still happily riding 3 x 9. I don't mind shifting between 3 chainrings. The 26 tooth small chainring paired with a 12 - 27 cassette is good enough for mostly flat to at most gently rolling hills Southeastern Wisconsin. And the 36 tooth middle ring is actually fine for riding at a leisurely pace. Honestly, if I had to get rid of my triple and go with a double, I could probably remove the big ring, switch the middle ring to something like a 39 or 40 tooth, and call it a day. But the big ring isn't hurting anyone so I will just leave as is.
If I lived in a place with more steep climbs, I might have to re-think the 12 - 27 cassette and go with something that went as big as a 34 or even 36 tooth gear.
My wife never got used to using a triple. she was constantly cross chaining and grinding gears getting stuck in the big ring on her 3 x 8 setup, then panicking and trying to shift from the big ring all the way to the little one under load, which didn't always work out so well. So we removed the big ring and turned it into a 2 x 8, and went from 11 - 25 cassette to 11 - 32. There was some expense getting a new rear derailleur, but because it was 8 speed, the cost wasn't too bad. Now she has bigger jumps between gears, but a much more useable range. And because the big ring is actually a middle ring, cross chaining is no longer a problem. I know this is a hack, but it worked.
Thanks for the discussion, Russ and cool opinions from everyone. I just think back to my childhood bikes with one speed, gas fitter tubes and none fitted me well...
Now I have two 10-speed bikes:
46/30, 11-34 for "Roadish" fun and very light touring.
38/24, 11-36 with enough gears to get me to the trail and plenty for up hills c/w a moderate load. (Add food, cook-set and some spare clothing.)
Firstly, I enjoy the crossover (redundancy) of mid range gears as this is where I may choose to finesse my cadence rather than the top or bottom (walk up or coast down).
Secondly, within reason there are plenty of 2x10 components (chains/cassettes) available in the UK- even now so I'm glad not to be in a "12-speed fight" that I can't win!
It's an important question if you use the same bike for loaded touring and regular day rides. And yes, I'm particular about cadence, purely from a comfort/ergonomic perspective
We have a Shimano 105 group set that's 10 years old. Hubby is having them fitted to a 1990 Peugeot frame set. He is having a 10 speed block with the largest sprocket being 32/34. Reason for this is the Campy group set is worn out.
just run a triple up front
Ryan Van Duzer rides a Priority 600 bike with a Pinion C1.12 gearbox having a 600% range and 12 evenly-spaced ratios. He seems to be able to get up and down some incredible inclines. I have a similar, but older and heavier, bike. I love the gear range, robustness and the very low maintenance (incl Gates belt). Perfect for riding party pace!
I also think we need to push back against the "more gears gives you a better spread" marketing because one extra cog doesn't reduce the step between all the cogs on the cassette. Usually it just gives you two in the place of one (like, giving you a 15-17-19-21 spread instead of 15-18-21) while the rest of the cassette is the same. Maybe at best it spreads out 3 or 4 cogs at the larger end of the cassette, but if you have cogs that are 2 or 3 teeth difference, you can't reduce the spacing there unless you go drastically smaller in overall range. So unless going to 12-speed (or 11, or 10) addresses the one gearing jump that bothers you regularly, I question if it's worth it at all.
due to inconsistency of routes here in the Philippines where you don't expect the kind of road you'll gonna deal with... I mean the variety of road types here is vast and complicated in each region that's why I still use my 3x10 up to this moment... wish that changing chainrings is simple and easy....
i went from 1x10 to 2x10 to 2x11 to 1x12 and i think each of those changes made sense. i did feel the difference everytime i changed but at 1x12 i mean the increments are definitely fine enough and i dont want an extra cog to add more weight anyway. i'd much rather innovation go into creating better range.
As always, LOGICAL advice for us mere mortals - thank you!
I finally got a bike today :) A gentleman had it for sale on FB but he decided to give it to me for free b/c of my hardship situation :) Anyways, my friend and her husband went to pick it up for me today and then took it to a friend to have it "tuned up" as they put it before they bring it to me :) Very thoughtful of them. I hope to have it by this weekend and I'm looking forward to letting you know what kind it is :) By the way, I'm 5'2" so the problem I've had is finding a used bike that I can afford and that I can actually get onto - thus far the bikes I'd looked at had been way too tall for me. This one was measured at 31" from the floor to the seat, which when I looked at that here at home, it was a perfect bike for my size. I'll try to write you back and let you know what kind of bike it is :)
I'm mostly a 3x person. Had a 3x7 for very long, got a 3x10 for commuting to my first job. It was a nightmare to maintain (expensive) and I wore out the middle front chainring. It got stolen and I got a cellar 3x6 from a friend and it amazes me how well this bike accelerates. I guess it's a very stiff frame, maybe a 90s mtb. Now my bicycle park is filling up, latest addition is a 3 speed folder which I think I love. Wiĺl change the rear sprocket I guess to make it faster, but range is limiting there. If I were to look for a bike again it would likely have 8 cogs in the back: 6/7 cogs don't get any more love from manufacturers, 10 cogs wore out to fast for me. I'm also into hub gearing.
you should do a Fullerton Loop group ride. For the non-competitive Party Pacers!
Great call out here.
I’ve become a hub gearing convert over the years and in many respects agree with having a larger range of gears. My gravel bike uses an 11spd Shimano hub and I really enjoy the range of it. That said, I’d love to move to a Rohloff and get the increase number of gears and larger range.
I plan on upgrading my Brommie to increase the gears and range soon. Getting a wider range will be so much nicer for some upcoming trips.
Bring back the third ring granny gear!
12 speed eventually won me over completely. I ran 1x9 and 1x10 (11-42) before switching over to 1x12. The reason I love 12 speed is, like you said, granularity. I ride a lot of cross-country and I love long 3+ hour rides, so having control over my cadence/power is huge for me. The range of a 1x12 also works great for me, I can run a 30 up front for bikepacking, a 34 for racing or a 32 for day to day single-track and have my range totally dialed. I don't love the extra maintenence to keep it running perfect but an extra hanger in the hip pack solves a lot of problems trail side until you can get back to the shop. I personally don't have a need for ny more gears. For me and my style (on a mountain bike mind you) 12 is plenty, filling in some crucial gaps that I found with 9 and 10 speed.
I went 1x 9 speed on my MTB and 1x 11 speed on my CX bike. Live in a flat area rarely ever ride mountains. I use a triple 9 speed on my loaded touring bike!
1x8 because I grind down the drivetrain on my daily comute. Much cheaper and I only use 3 or 4 gears. Thinking about a Sachs 3-speed hub. (No hills in my area)
Yep, love my double (or triple) in front and 11-42 rear (no matter, 8-9-10 speeds)
I agree with range vs. number of gears. As a mountain biker who was constantly dropping the chain in the front, I don't miss the front derailleur. But... maybe it was more about the lack of clutch? Gotta say, I don't think I've tried a front derailleur since I started running clutch derailleurs
Wide Range 2x9 is the shizzle if you only have 1 bike. 28/44 in the front, 11-42 in the back. MicroSHIFT Advent 9 speed front and rear derailleurs and shifters FTW.
I still use my 10 speed 11-46T cassette paired with 34T chainring. Not the fastest but gets the job done. I sometimes change to 38T chainring if were going flatter roads but that's very rarely happens.
Great topic. Thanks!
Interesting- I both agree and disagree. I appreciate the range of eagle on my gravel bike, but the steps, especially at the smaller cogs was driving me crazy on the road. what I found is that I end up using most of the larger gears, but rarely the smaller. So, I ended up getting a force cassette and reducing my chainring to 32t, which lined up pretty close to the 42T I was normally using. Does it limit my top speed? absolutely. But I figured this- if I'm doing 25MPH, I'm likely going down hill- who cares about pedalling then! 😀
So far its been working pretty well. I still have the eagle that I run on my 650b wheelset (and use Archer to handle the shifting of the GX derailleur)
I have a 1x now and honestly am fine with that for most of the riding that I do. 9 speeds currently, maybe 10 down the line, but I really wish I had the 12 as my top gear.
I got a 1x8, 34t oval chainring and 11/40 cassette. I got it as stock on my new cheap mtb just thought id upgrade later, but amazingly, this is enough...
Range for sure. My conclusion is that for a do-all bike that ~5:1 rang is needed. I tried 11-42 with 3.8:1 and hated life at both ends of the range. 11-50 with 4.5:1 is tolerable, but I end up rolling down things I's prefer to pedal down, and don't want to give up anything on my granny gear. With the 10-51 I've almost never been left wanting (well, wanting better legs, but the gears are fine). I did retrofit a FD with a 34/24 set of front rings onto my 11-42 bike and it have something like a 5.4:1 and that is a great combo that has never left me frustrated, though my 1X bikes keep getting me out of good habits with my FD.
I love the Zach Gallardo shout out!
You can only go so small on the smallest gear of the cassette or else there wouldn’t be enough teeth for the chain to bite. Larger rear cogs for low gears are heavier and require long cage derailleurs. Front chainrings can only be so big because of frame limitations. I run single front chainrings for simplicity and just coast over 25 mph, but 2x or 3x would be better for range.
Wider ranges would be nice for sure. I keep one of my bikes set up with; 1x 44 crank and a 12-32 7s cassette. It's pretty much enough to do all the riding in my area at a very casual speed, with very little maintenance, and very low costs to keep up. Sometimes it's nice to have a wide range on something you don't have to worry too much about.
👍 Thanks for the content. Never boring.
in uphill my gears is my legs and knees, I'm good in 9-10 speed, 11-15 speed is for mtb racers. hehe, practice our legs/knees in uphill section will be the best ever contentment for me. :)
I don't need more gears. I just need just the right ratios for me. I'm mainly commuting and running errands on my bicycle, but there are quite a bit hills on my routes. My previous bike had 3x8 and I mainly used the middle chainring on the front and first 6 on the back. Now I have 2x10 and the ratios I use are about the same... I might use one easier gear quite often as it is more easily available... so I'm now using 7 different gears mostly.
I have tried to get more granularity to the range I use most, but the problem seems to be that cassettes available with finer granularity tend to be mainly for road cycling. All the cogs are very small on those. If you want those lower ratios with tose, I'd need to find really small front chainrings, and that would mean I'd need to change the crankset too. I don't really get why most cassettes have 11 as the smallest cog. It usually doesn't even work that good and I think it was even proved somewhere that the smaller cogs tend to be less efficient as the chain has to make tighter turns. I'd love if there were more cassettes where the smallest cog was 12 or even 13.
Amen brother. It's range that counts. Perhaps the people who have gone all-in with 1x drivetrains are missing out because I'm fairly sure that my Alfine 8 speed hub has as wide a range as some of theirs, just with bigger steps. However, even that isn't necessarily a deal-breaker because even when I only had 7-speed, I often shifted through several sprockets at once to get where I wanted to be (here in Yorkshire, you are usually going up steeply or down steeply) so big steps are fine for me and I seldom want to micro-adjust which is what all the in-between ones do.
Can I be cheeky and suggest that those running 1x drivetrains try a 2x or even 3x for size? This massively improves the range (imagine that in addition to your 34 or 38, you can also have a 22 and a 48?). Tempting eh? Have fun everyone.
Exactly. More gears is about cadence. Those of us who are not either racers or fitness fanatics are generally more interested in range than gears. (There are also those who are impressed by the latest-and-greatest... but few of them are gonna be lookin' at Path Less Pedaled.)
I'm still riding a 3x9 MTB. Talk about range!
Big Gears will come looking for you Russ!
Working out a new Gearing setup I think about the bottom gear ratio 1st these days, I know I get a good top end and steady flat road ratio (mid-block)
As my riding goes from wet MTB dirt to smooth road 1 went with x2, but knowing my 22 gears would only really give me ~14 ratios (I wanted 105 with hydo brakes as I like stopping)
I can sprint so I get some use out of a 50/11 (or even 53/11 on zwift), it ends up being vanity over practicality and most don't need it, I ride light, so for me it's not about grinding up 10 mile inclines with my body weight in bags.
Gear Calc's are a nerdy must.
still running 3x9 on my 2 bikes. Gravel and MTB - touring bike. Only reason why I am considering to upgrade my MTB is because of the chain slap when I go thru trails, other than that I'm good.
9 or 10 is perfect for me. Whether it’s 1x 2x or 3x. It also doesn’t have to be adjusted perfect to work.
Greater range is more important than the. Number of individual gears that you have. That being said the gearing you have should be driven by your need, as an extreme example a 2 x 12 dura ace may right for the TDF but if you live n Holland 🇳🇱 and are just pottering around a town then a single speed is probably the optimum gearing for you. If you are “all road” the majority of the offering from Shimano, Campy and SRAM don’t offer the range unless you are mix and match the groupsets. On my Gorilla Monsoon I run a 2 x 10 with 11 speed XT rear derailleur 11-40 10 speed sunrace cassette and Campagnolo front derailleur, bar end shifters set to friction with a 42/26 spa cycles crank. = reliable smooth shifting with a massive range and great for load hauling. My road bike on the other hand is all 8000 Ultegra with 50/34 with a 11/36 Sunrace rear cassette - a good range for road riding.
Great chat. There is a range race going on under the majors between Box, Advent, and Microshift updating all those old school H hubs to cassettes 12-46 in a 1X pie plate. I want one for one of my 90’s MTB. An entire drive train and shifter with quality parts for $150 (US)
I have a 12spd Sram Eagle drive train, but would prefer a 9 or 8 spd even if I could get the same range. Producers never talk about range though, that ends up being a confusing math problem you want to figure it out.
I've stayed at 10sp on all of my geared bikes & that one or two move than really need.
I like when you discuss bike tech vs real usage. But I do wish you would include some of the data like you did from the 1x vs 2x video.
I bought a new bike and made decisions based on that data and it was spot on.
I agree in principle, I think the highest number of "speeds" I've got is 11. Mainly the advantage of more is the "granularity" as you say, but even at 11 there are those times when you wish you had that in-between gear! I would sweat in more if I was racing, but at party pace it's not a problem. I am more put off with the arms race over ever larger cassettes; over 44T and you should change the front ring to a smaller ring! Or get a double up front and go to a smaller cassette. Those huge cassettes are too heavy!
I have 1x10 on my gravel explorer and really only use 3 gears - smallest go fast, biggest climb anything, and my “pseudo-single speed” in the middle sweet spot for 90% of the time
I’m good with a 9 speed 11 to 50 with 30 in the front 👍 less headaches