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100% agree with you on the weirdness of having the "offensive" cards separated. There is a weird hypocritical culture in America where profanity, sex and nudity is immoral and must be censored, but gore and violence is accepted. I watched a horror movie on US cable where a woman gets cut in half shown in full but they censored her breasts, as if the human form is somehow offensive and extreme gore is a normal thing, it is just weird. Sex is normal and healthy, the human form is normal, we were all born naked, most of us suckled on a breast, it is not inherently offensive or scarring for kids to see some skin or hear some swear words. Murder, killing and other violence is not normal, hopefully never experience by anyone, I just don't get why it is not the other way around, people should be more sensitive about the violence. Also some people in the board game community seem to want to have every single game to be family friendly and politically correct, even when they are intended for older audiences or certain fans. Having scantily clad women is sexist, having slaves in a game is offensive, give me a break.
Completely agreed, except that murder and violence is quite normal, now and for the entire history of man. You probably mean, however, is that we should make it not normal. Agreed.
I agree completely with everything you said about Raxxon. The encounters should be mixed into the search deck. I might put this to my gaming friends and see what they say
I liked the envelope. I can handle the darker theme but if I'm going to bring this out with other people, I might want to know that those cards surpass the typical warning found at the bottom of the card on some. We don't have to agree on whether the subject matter is or is not offensive. It's included and owners are free to take those cards and do what they wish with them.
Thanks, helped convince me to buy this over DoW 1.0. Will see how we get on and maybe build back towards the Can you tell me what the game is over your left (our right) shoulder is? It's under Tanto Cuoro and looks a bit like the Chest from Discworld: a chest with teeth.
I enjoy how they let you keep the first player token at one player because frankly, it cuts down on the steps you need to go through to keep the game moving...that being said, if you and your friends agree to keep it to one player, that player then has the ability to wreak havoc if they turn out to the betrayer, for example eat all the food attract, make tons of noise, attack other players etc.
The cards ARE in the game... they're just giving some people the option to not use them by making it clear which cards they believe go to another level of gore or whatever. Really not seeing a problem, can't see how it affects anyone who'd choose to use them (myself included) - just take them out of the envelope; job done.
Agree about the cards, it's a dark gruesome game about zombies for crying out loud! There are enough family friendly games to choose from if cards in a game offends you.
I think the main reason why this is a stand alone game is what i've dreamed about since i've played DoW a Colony vs Colony version of DoW without the betrayer aspect of it.
I love Dead of Winter, but making this stand alone instead of an expansion leaves a sour taste in the mouth, especially with so much duplicated content between the two. It is definitely a plus for anyone that has not bought 1.0 though. While I'm sure it will do well none the less, I wonder how it would have compare (sales/profit wise) if it was simply an expansion. Too early to tell for sure, but with a collection of quality games, and more on their way (TO7S soon in AU), this will sit on the 'wait for midyear sales' list (and yeah, I know they just happened, lol).
They should have at least done the standalone for those who don't have the game AND a separate expansion for those of us who already have the base game just so we can get the new bits.
Was looking for a detailed video review for weeks. I've had my copy for almost 2 weeks now. I've only been able to play one game using just improvements so far. I would be REALLY interested in hearing about any future home tweaks you make to the Raxxon module to improve how fun it is. In addition to mixing in the original characters and cross roads cards, I would REALLY like a way to mix in the original item decks without breaking the game. WARNING: REALLY LONG UNORGANIZED house rules crafting below I think one of the things that has kept the game balanced is the constrained amount of resources available in a game, so even if you wanted to mix the item decks, it would probably be a mistake to put 40 items at each location. The rule book suggests players who own both games can randomly choose 20 of the 40 cards to place at each location, but that might result in some unlucky deals where all the locations end up short on a specific type of item and you cant find what you need in any give game. One thought I had about mixing item decks while both keeping it fun/balanced without also requiring too much additional setup and book keeping is to leverage the bandits module by tweaking its rules a bit. Instead of 20, place 21 of the 40 cards for each location. Then take one card from each location and place it face down in the bandits item deck. (optionally, also take 5 random starter item cards from the original set and place them face down in the bandits item deck as well. During post game cleanup these starter items are easier to identify and separate out at the end of the game since they are guaranteed to be the only starter items with the old text, and I recommend that if you include them in this way, you play them exactly has they read, and not treat them the same as the new starter items with the upgraded text) Thematically all this means is that the bandits have already been scavenging and/or have some stockpile of supplies at the start of the game. Players still won't be able to use any of the starter items they scavenge from here for colony objectives etc.. so that provides some balance. So now you have 5 to 10 extra items, face down in the bandits hideout at the start of the game, and 20 random items at each location. When bandits scavenge items during the game, reveal which item they have taken from a location to all players, but then shuffle it into the bandits item deck face down. How you handle players retrieving items from that deck probably needs some experimenting. When a player has rolled the dice to earn taking a card(s) from the bandits deck 1) players can look through the whole deck and take what they want, also observing everything else that is in the deck in case they want to come back for more cards later OR 2) players just take cards off the top deck. AND When a player is putting the retrieved card(s) into their hand a) players keep the items they take from the bandits a secret OR b) players have to reveal all items they take from the bandits hideout. (b) is interesting to me because its the only time in the game where other players know what you are putting in your hand, but you aren't forced to use it immediately. (Unlike the rules for requesting items where players know what you've been given but you have to use it). There might be some interesting game play here where player know people have some cards in their hand but can also see that they aren't always playing them to help the colony. (I guess the default bandit rules would also cover this scenario, however) Interested to hear your thoughts on this and any tweaks that might make raxxon more fun.
I haven't got my copy of Long Night but when I do I plan on making custom decks using a combination of the two games. I will tweak as necessary and keep them assembled the way I like.
Let me know how it works out for you. I had similar intentions myself, but the tear down cost of separating things out afterwards and having to re compile custom item decks for each game doesn't seem to be worth the administration and accounting costs..
I've been playing the original game with a group of friends for a couple of months, I've enjoy it so much that i decided to buy it, even thou i knew the expansion was coming ..why? Simply because one thing that i like less(not dislike) is the "given fact" that for example on the "Grocery Store" will always be more food or the "Gas Station" will always be more fuel...yes they are shuffled and it might take a white to get it .. but in the end there will always be food/fuel/etc...... With Long Night you can shuffle the location deck of both games and take 20 cards random... the probability of having more food on "Grocery Store" is still higher than any other but is not a given fact...thematically is more "real" ( some one already scavenge that place before us ). i like that idea
I agree that the "offensive" cards being separate is silly, but I can also see why PHG wants to protect themselves from that vocal segment of society that are perpetually & professionally insulted. Even unjustified lawsuits are expensive & i can see some hypersensitive folks claiming they weren't sufficiently warned about content they deem traumatzing. Companies, unfortunately, must keep idiots at arm's-length.
Sad but true. A game centered around death and destruction but whoa, some people were not warned enough and yes, some idiot judge/lawyer would agree with them. Professional victims that will but the game knowing what they bought but act like it should be Candyland when there is something that bothers them.
Two of the three modules just sound unwieldy (or at least the Raxxon one does along with adding unneeded extra difficulty with the bandits). By the look of things I'll just be running it with the improvements module and fresh new characters/crossroads. In terms of combining I'll hold off until someone more anal than even me creates some item decks that are balanced, although I think it might just be character/crossroads along with secret objectives being combined in the long run. Even if the Crossroads deck is getting a bit huge with the promos already.
I'm thinking that they separated the "mature" cards for people that bought the game to play with younger players... I appreciate the symbols that let the players quickly separate those out and their decision to draw attention to it so the gamers can think about how dark they want to play.
Sheeeeeeeit, you got it already? Maybe I should ask you to pay me with board game copies ^o^ Ha ha ha ha ha... anyways, great review, can't wait to get my copy of this unnecessarily standalone but necessary expansion.
You touched on conservatism in the board game subculture in your Secret Hitler review. Up until that point, I thought that was something I was alone on observing. I don't really see how the envelope hurts anything. If you don't want the mature theme, you're not going to open it. I don't think it's necessary, but whatever.
I don't at all see the issue with making that content optional. The fact is that level of content wasn't inside the first dead of winter so people who purchased that may have bought the game and not enjoyed that content. Making it easier for your consumer to avoid that content isn't bad. I personally think it's werid that it bothers people to have this. This thing that you could just automatically get rid of, throw away, and have the content in your game is bothering you to the point of complaining and it's because they are trying to give consumers more options. While it's a zombie game that means nothing, 10 year olds play dead of winter, 10 year olds play zombie games, zombies are not some grim dark niche. Zombies appeal to an insanely wide range of people and not every person is you. Your not bothered, great throw away the envelope, someone else is, great they never have to read it or can use it when their kids play with them to seal away stuff they deem too intense.
+Board Game Brawl I think it's cool they included them because the alternative was probably not at all. I do think it would be cool if they released a card expansion that was just for mature audiences that was nothing but dark gory content; crossroads, events, scenarios.
+McPhisto The envelope itself is evidence to me. Obviously they were conserved about reactions to that type of material, hence the envelope. Since it was a concern it wouldn't make sense to allot time to that type of content and they'd need enough of the less offensive material to make a deck.
100% agree with you on the weirdness of having the "offensive" cards
separated. There is a weird hypocritical culture in America where
profanity, sex and nudity is immoral and must be censored, but gore and
violence is accepted. I watched a horror movie on US cable where a woman
gets cut in half shown in full but they censored her breasts, as if the
human form is somehow offensive and extreme gore is a normal thing, it
is just weird. Sex is normal and healthy, the human form is normal, we
were all born naked, most of us suckled on a breast, it is not
inherently offensive or scarring for kids to see some skin or hear some
swear words. Murder, killing and other violence is not normal, hopefully
never experience by anyone, I just don't get why it is not the other
way around, people should be more sensitive about the violence.
Also some people in the board game community seem to want to have every
single game to be family friendly and politically correct, even when
they are intended for older audiences or certain fans. Having scantily
clad women is sexist, having slaves in a game is offensive, give me a
break.
Well said.
Completely agreed, except that murder and violence is quite normal, now and for the entire history of man. You probably mean, however, is that we should make it not normal. Agreed.
David Pellegrini welcome to America
I agree completely with everything you said about Raxxon. The encounters should be mixed into the search deck. I might put this to my gaming friends and see what they say
I liked the envelope. I can handle the darker theme but if I'm going to bring this out with other people, I might want to know that those cards surpass the typical warning found at the bottom of the card on some. We don't have to agree on whether the subject matter is or is not offensive. It's included and owners are free to take those cards and do what they wish with them.
Thanks, helped convince me to buy this over DoW 1.0.
Will see how we get on and maybe build back towards the
Can you tell me what the game is over your left (our right) shoulder is?
It's under Tanto Cuoro and looks a bit like the Chest from Discworld: a chest with teeth.
Glad to hear Nick LOVES this game. Can't wait to play this one.
I enjoy how they let you keep the first player token at one player because frankly, it cuts down on the steps you need to go through to keep the game moving...that being said, if you and your friends agree to keep it to one player, that player then has the ability to wreak havoc if they turn out to the betrayer, for example eat all the food attract, make tons of noise, attack other players etc.
@Board Game Brawl; can i ask what game is that you have behind you that looks like a mimic? (that treasure with the smily licking mouth)
Fun review!
Thanks! What are those shelves by the way? Ikea?
i love your shirt xD
Are ALL of the characters in The Long Night new?
The cards ARE in the game... they're just giving some people the option to not use them by making it clear which cards they believe go to another level of gore or whatever. Really not seeing a problem, can't see how it affects anyone who'd choose to use them (myself included) - just take them out of the envelope; job done.
Agree about the cards, it's a dark gruesome game about zombies for crying out loud!
There are enough family friendly games to choose from if cards in a game offends you.
I haven't seen what's on the cards, but if it stops you dealing with oversensitive complaints in the future it was probably the smart thing to do.
I think the main reason why this is a stand alone game is what i've dreamed about since i've played DoW a Colony vs Colony version of DoW without the betrayer aspect of it.
They anounced a mini expansion doing just that !
I love Dead of Winter, but making this stand alone instead of an expansion leaves a sour taste in the mouth, especially with so much duplicated content between the two. It is definitely a plus for anyone that has not bought 1.0 though.
While I'm sure it will do well none the less, I wonder how it would have compare (sales/profit wise) if it was simply an expansion. Too early to tell for sure, but with a collection of quality games, and more on their way (TO7S soon in AU), this will sit on the 'wait for midyear sales' list (and yeah, I know they just happened, lol).
Agreed.
They should have at least done the standalone for those who don't have the game AND a separate expansion for those of us who already have the base game just so we can get the new bits.
Was looking for a detailed video review for weeks. I've had my copy for almost 2 weeks now. I've only been able to play one game using just improvements so far.
I would be REALLY interested in hearing about any future home tweaks you make to the Raxxon module to improve how fun it is.
In addition to mixing in the original characters and cross roads cards, I would REALLY like a way to mix in the original item decks without breaking the game.
WARNING: REALLY LONG UNORGANIZED house rules crafting below
I think one of the things that has kept the game balanced is the constrained amount of resources available in a game, so even if you wanted to mix the item decks, it would probably be a mistake to put 40 items at each location. The rule book suggests players who own both games can randomly choose 20 of the 40 cards to place at each location, but that might result in some unlucky deals where all the locations end up short on a specific type of item and you cant find what you need in any give game.
One thought I had about mixing item decks while both keeping it fun/balanced without also requiring too much additional setup and book keeping is to leverage the bandits module by tweaking its rules a bit.
Instead of 20, place 21 of the 40 cards for each location. Then take one card from each location and place it face down in the bandits item deck. (optionally, also take 5 random starter item cards from the original set and place them face down in the bandits item deck as well. During post game cleanup these starter items are easier to identify and separate out at the end of the game since they are guaranteed to be the only starter items with the old text, and I recommend that if you include them in this way, you play them exactly has they read, and not treat them the same as the new starter items with the upgraded text)
Thematically all this means is that the bandits have already been scavenging and/or have some stockpile of supplies at the start of the game. Players still won't be able to use any of the starter items they scavenge from here for colony objectives etc.. so that provides some balance.
So now you have 5 to 10 extra items, face down in the bandits hideout at the start of the game, and 20 random items at each location.
When bandits scavenge items during the game, reveal which item they have taken from a location to all players, but then shuffle it into the bandits item deck face down.
How you handle players retrieving items from that deck probably needs some experimenting.
When a player has rolled the dice to earn taking a card(s) from the bandits deck
1) players can look through the whole deck and take what they want, also observing everything else that is in the deck in case they want to come back for more cards later
OR
2) players just take cards off the top deck.
AND
When a player is putting the retrieved card(s) into their hand
a) players keep the items they take from the bandits a secret
OR
b) players have to reveal all items they take from the bandits hideout.
(b) is interesting to me because its the only time in the game where other players know what you are putting in your hand, but you aren't forced to use it immediately. (Unlike the rules for requesting items where players know what you've been given but you have to use it). There might be some interesting game play here where player know people have some cards in their hand but can also see that they aren't always playing them to help the colony. (I guess the default bandit rules would also cover this scenario, however)
Interested to hear your thoughts on this and any tweaks that might make raxxon more fun.
I haven't got my copy of Long Night but when I do I plan on making custom decks using a combination of the two games. I will tweak as necessary and keep them assembled the way I like.
Let me know how it works out for you. I had similar intentions myself, but the tear down cost of separating things out afterwards and having to re compile custom item decks for each game doesn't seem to be worth the administration and accounting costs..
I've been playing the original game with a group of friends for a couple of months, I've enjoy it so much that i decided to buy it, even thou i knew the expansion was coming ..why?
Simply because one thing that i like less(not dislike) is the "given fact" that for example on the "Grocery Store" will always be more food or the "Gas Station" will always be more fuel...yes they are shuffled and it might take a white to get it .. but in the end there will always be food/fuel/etc......
With Long Night you can shuffle the location deck of both games and take 20 cards random... the probability of having more food on "Grocery Store" is still higher than any other but is not a given fact...thematically is more "real" ( some one already scavenge that place before us ). i like that idea
This is a game that needs a Legacy version
I agree that the "offensive" cards being separate is silly, but I can also see why PHG wants to protect themselves from that vocal segment of society that are perpetually & professionally insulted. Even unjustified lawsuits are expensive & i can see some hypersensitive folks claiming they weren't sufficiently warned about content they deem traumatzing. Companies, unfortunately, must keep idiots at arm's-length.
Sad but true. A game centered around death and destruction but whoa, some people were not warned enough and yes, some idiot judge/lawyer would agree with them. Professional victims that will but the game knowing what they bought but act like it should be Candyland when there is something that bothers them.
Two of the three modules just sound unwieldy (or at least the Raxxon one does along with adding unneeded extra difficulty with the bandits). By the look of things I'll just be running it with the improvements module and fresh new characters/crossroads.
In terms of combining I'll hold off until someone more anal than even me creates some item decks that are balanced, although I think it might just be character/crossroads along with secret objectives being combined in the long run. Even if the Crossroads deck is getting a bit huge with the promos already.
I'm thinking that they separated the "mature" cards for people that bought the game to play with younger players... I appreciate the symbols that let the players quickly separate those out and their decision to draw attention to it so the gamers can think about how dark they want to play.
I want to get the original just so my gaming group can get their feet wet on the rules before I introduce the more complex shit.
Thats what i did
Sheeeeeeeit, you got it already? Maybe I should ask you to pay me with board game copies ^o^ Ha ha ha ha ha... anyways, great review, can't wait to get my copy of this unnecessarily standalone but necessary expansion.
Damn. I just bought the original and now I learn this is everything that was but better? Grrr...
You can sort of mix to two.
You touched on conservatism in the board game subculture in your Secret Hitler review. Up until that point, I thought that was something I was alone on observing.
I don't really see how the envelope hurts anything. If you don't want the mature theme, you're not going to open it. I don't think it's necessary, but whatever.
I don't at all see the issue with making that content optional. The fact is that level of content wasn't inside the first dead of winter so people who purchased that may have bought the game and not enjoyed that content. Making it easier for your consumer to avoid that content isn't bad.
I personally think it's werid that it bothers people to have this. This thing that you could just automatically get rid of, throw away, and have the content in your game is bothering you to the point of complaining and it's because they are trying to give consumers more options. While it's a zombie game that means nothing, 10 year olds play dead of winter, 10 year olds play zombie games, zombies are not some grim dark niche. Zombies appeal to an insanely wide range of people and not every person is you. Your not bothered, great throw away the envelope, someone else is, great they never have to read it or can use it when their kids play with them to seal away stuff they deem too intense.
How many more grim, mature cards might we have had if they didn't have to hold back and make just enough for a tiny sensitivity envelope?
+Board Game Brawl I think it's cool they included them because the alternative was probably not at all. I do think it would be cool if they released a card expansion that was just for mature audiences that was nothing but dark gory content; crossroads, events, scenarios.
Do you have any concrete reason to believe that the limiting factor for the number of those cards was the envelope?
+McPhisto The envelope itself is evidence to me. Obviously they were conserved about reactions to that type of material, hence the envelope. Since it was a concern it wouldn't make sense to allot time to that type of content and they'd need enough of the less offensive material to make a deck.
But how does that indicate that they couldn't have made more cards if they had wanted to?
I didn't expect to hear the "political correctness gone mad!" canard from you, and I'm honestly a bit disappointed.