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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ธ.ค. 2021
- The Binding Of Isaac: Afterbirth and Afterbirth Plus added some... Interesting things. Let's talk about why Greed mode is so polarizing, and how the new dev team can make some improvements!
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This is the "after you get all the marks and unlocks your done with it forever and don't have to do it ever again"
I loterallly just use the rules mod to cheat my win then I use clicker to get as many as I can
@@AutisticJesusGamingThat doesn’t sound fun.
Really well made video, my only complaint is that I didn’t get to see the rest of the run you were doing in the background.
fr though
Just came to the comments to say that
@@MrUseless5712 username checks out
@@worldtrademark_ i simp for tax collector
For real! that Soul of Azazel was about to do some fuckin work
two simple tweaks I would like from greed/greedier mode:
-Champion enemies drop their normal drops. I do not think it is any way fair that champions can spawn in greedier without their regular rewards "cuz greed mode". This would give the player more options as well in general.
-Telegraphed enemy spawns. This one is simple, just put a big red spot or something for where the next wave of enemies will spawn so that the player doesn't get telefragged unawares.
I agree with you that having one of the rooms be a special room each floor would do a lot for the variety. I think there should be ways to prevent the donation machine from locking up, or at least a way to undo the lockup on a run with a sacrifice of resources. I think that the character jam percentage should be removed, while there are definitely characters that are better than others in greed mode I think that the jam just does not feel good as a punishment for that.
having some marking before enemies spawn in like in Enter the Gungeon would be a huge blessing not only for greed mode, but also for challenge rooms where some opponents could spawn in very unexpected places sometimes (looking at you, turdlet.)
Worst part is I think the marks for enemy spawns were in antibirth.
@@hog9613 Enemies like haunt and camera have markers so ugh. hopefully it will be added
I just don't understand why the donation machine gets jammed, is not as if people donated to the machine because we enjoy that, we do it only to get the keeper and after that we still have to keep playing in order to get all the unlocks.
We may be able to get the keeper with only 3 runs but we still need to play 34 times in order to get the unlocks.
@@juanrodriguez9971 wait how would you be able to get the keeper in only three runs? But yeah otherwise I agree. It's stupid because the only way you're gonna have a good chunk of change AND beat greed is if you use an exploit like D20 most of the time or just get super lucky on the items you get, or play as a character that can feasibly coast on minimal items (I would argue that only lilith can really do this as Samson and Judas start losing potency without defensive options)
Since Repentance majority of my Classic mode runs were more or less balanced. Nothing OP and nothing extremely underwhelming. With Greed mode you either break a game clearing waves with one blow or get overwhelmed on depths floor because you just don't have enough DPS to hold off your enemies (maneuvering is not an option because of lack of space).
Although, I'm not the best Isaac player, me having same issues on 300th hour of the game as I had on 30th is rather telling.
For me repentance feels less balanced in terms of unlocks. Either I slog through a run and maybe get one thing on the note or I have an r key break and completely fill out a character. The control you get with a break is just even higher than in afterbirth.
that sounds more like greedier mode since it barely gives you enough pennies
i feel like it's a problem there are so many single room actives that absolutely destroy greed waves, of course there's stuff like sulphur but even lower tier items like scoop are insane for clearing them so easil
@@svenweiland3322honestly the trick is on slog runs with high Hp go sac rooms
Here's my Greed Mode concept: *The ability to buy rooms.*
Where Red Rooms would usually be, there's some kind of interactable stating a price, alongside an icon indicating what room it is. Some rooms might be regular fights, some might be Secret, some might be Treasure Rooms, some might be Bedrooms, Boss Rooms, Arcades, Closets, bonus mini-Shops, Devil/Angel Rooms, ecetera, with price ranges determined by what kind of room it is plus or minus some extra random cents.
If you want to increase player agency further, these rooms could all feature "Red Locks" that enable you to spend a key to cause the room to stick around next floor, keeping everything inside- And perhaps, these could contain entrances to alternate floors, like if you explore The Womb enough you can reach The Cathedral instead of Sheol.
This is interesting, but I feel as though this should be the basis of its own mode, a mode based around the red rooms
Make greedier mode COD zombies?
Isaac becomes a real estate investor
This defeats the purpose of greed mode
the thing that bothers me about greedier is that the mechanics are super disssonant with the name and supposed point of the mode. I just cant understand how the hell making you get less money makes you "greedier". greedier should be about making you play... greedily. something like the downpour mirror world, vanishing twin, damocles, normal greed devil/angel rooms, or t. keeper's gimmick makes perfect sense. an opportunity to get more resources at a risk. maybe a mechanic where you can spawn as many waves as you want, but only all at once. or you get less options in the shop, but more money, so restocking is like gambling; tying in to the dad theme.
You've got it backwards. Greedier is to punish greed. The entire first floor is designed to make you want to hot the button, but you don't because you want the money.
Who becomes greedier is not you... But him
He forged himself in gold 👁
I’d say you have it wrong it’s called greedier because you gaining less money makes you more greedy to get the unlocks in the machine, and as well as the boss “ultra greedier” is trying to do the same thing “not fill up the machine” but gaining money, which is why as you are hit it takes money away from you ultra greed actually picks that money up if you are too slow
I'd love to see the Key Pieces from the angels have some kind of substantial use in Greed. Maybe they could open a vault right before the Ultra Greed fight, with an angel item or something? I just think right now they're totally a wasted oppurtunity.
While I agree, that would be really cool, I believe the key pieces are more important than you think. When you can spawn a deal every floor, having the key pieces means that you will get more angel items almost guaranteed. I always go for them for this reason.
I feel like given the lore, getting A Dollar and Dad's lost coin for beating Mega Satan at the start of the Ultra Greed floor would be decent enough. A Dollar would help fill the Greed machine a lot, since you have to miss out in some good items to have enough to donate, especially in greedier mode where you get less money and can donate more.
@@manologamerss5801 deep pockets too in case they were already rich
@@rocktoo7603 deep pockets is a keeper unlock, why would they need to fill the machine if they already have keeper?
@@gaybowser4522 I didn’t realize it was a keeper unlock.
I would love to see some exclusive items added to Greed Mode. There are a ton of items that either have no effect or are completely unobtainable in Greed Mode, so having a few items that interact with the unique mechanics of the mode would be a nice balance. Maybe an item that influences silver treasure rooms, or an item that rewards you for beating multiple waves in succession without pressing the pause button.
Great video overall, I would really love to see some of these changes! The addition of more special rooms like libraries and planetariums would already improve the mode a lot.
Since the silver room is supposed to be boss items, it would make sense to at least add the options items to the mode, so you get to choose between two each floor.
Theres no mom unlock for tainted characters, so they could possibly unlock these?
Some ideas i have
Devil deal item: for every coin you didnt pick up last floor, gain: half a black heart (25% chance) +0.05 permenant damage (50% chance) or 2 friendly blue flies (25% chance)
Secret room/curse room item: floors feature 2 more waves and timers between waves have +1 second, +1 luck.
i think smth that gives u invincibility for 3 seconds everytime a wave starts would be cool
I'd like to see hush and the boss Rush incorporated as well as the cathedral. Generally add love to see a complete mode where you can fight every single boss in the game going through every single floor in the game and your suggestion for neo-greed sounds like a perfect place for that.
Maybe the second boss of Depths is Mom, the second boss of Womb is Mom's Heart/It Lives!, etc. and you can access the Boss Rush and Hush if you're fast enough on their normal floors, and after Mom you can take the polaroid or the negative.
The idea of Greed not being the only one with an Ultra Sin variant has crossed my mind more than once.
Example: having all Sins have Ultra variants, and depending on the conditions of the run, certain sins will appear.
Also Renaming it to Sin/Sinfull mode makes it better in my head
Edit: Incorporating Legend of Bumbo may be better tham my previous idea
I don't like the "neo-greedier", I think devs should just get rid of it and only stick to standard greed mode (donating 500 coins would work similarly to the "everything is terrible" achievement). But I agree about the lack of variety, it gets repetitive really quickly, some new room layouts could help. But by far the most annoying thing about greed mode is the final boss, i think the fight is just boring and overall shit (mainly because of abysmal amounts of armor) and i don't have a slightest idea how to change it for better.
PS i think bum-bo should have a stronger presence in greed mode cause you know coins are kinda his thing
Uh, there already is an "Everything is Terrible" for greed mode from donating (Can't remember how many)
@@manologamerss5801 yeah but if I remember correctly it only buffs Ultra Greed
the second phase is much worse since the first phase is a slog with low DPS alone. Get sniped by the stupid brimstone doors or by misjudging greediers explosion radius as the lost...for a luck upgrade
I like your concept for a revamp. As someone who just got into this game, greed hasn’t gotten terribly stale yet for me, but I can see it being extremely boring to 100%. This would make it much more interesting.
When Greedier released I expected more waves and more coins. Not harder waves for less coins.
I really like Greed Mode for its simplicity and shorter run length. Tainted Keeper on Greed Mode is my go-to whenever I want to play a chill run without sweating for the few remaining unlocks.
I actually felt a bit sad when I "completed" Greedier by getting its mark on all 34 characters.
It's good to keep playing for Eden token's
It's good to keep playing for Eden token's
Maybe have Greedier as an optional thing? Donate X coins to the machine at the end and you can go through a new door to someplace and fight ultra greedier, allowing for two marks in one run if you feel like it.
Although, I think this would require the Ultra Greedier fight itself to be overhauled to make the boss more standalone and challenging, while nerfing the standard greed a tad to keep him in the "normal mode" shtick.
I actually really enjoy this mode. When I was completing all the T characters. I played first greedier mode on everything and then the normal. And when I got to normal, I was bored I have to walk so much 😁.
@@weaveadoor Same
I honestly always found the mode pretty good. My biggest issue always was that it doesn't really fit into the rest of the game as well as it should(Gameplay, levels, story), but that is moreso a conceptual issue that just can't be fixed without not making it greed mode anymore. The video made me notice tho: The unlock-requirement of Greedier should just be dropped honestly.
It's not like we had to unlock regular hardmode either, so why greed-hardmode?
How about it being one floor, theres a shop or your safe zone where you can shop and whatever, but theres a set timer when the next wave starts. So between each wave you have some time to prepare for the next wave. Every five waves, a boss would spawn, and eventually there'd be an end boss. Maybe with some random events, tinted rocks or other stuff that spawns between waves, so you have to decide, do you go looking for the secrets or do you prepare in the shop.
Instead of what you proposed, Greedier mode is now actually harder greed mode. Instead of a linear room, it’s a normal basement floor except each room has 2 waves. You take full hearts of damage and each enemy drops a temporary coin that’ll dissapear quickly, this is the only way to obtain money. Now you have to find the free item room, the shop, and the golden item room. Like XL floors, there are two boss gates to represent the boss waves normally seen in greed mode. After defeating the second one, a trapdoor and a question mark door appears. Entering the question mark room will greet you with the deal bossfight and after you beat it, you get teleported out of the room to see what deal you just unlocked. Instead of curse room, it’s a random room like how the normal greed mode would be.
Oh! I have an idea! Add a "Fever mode" or "Jackpot Price", similar to how Tainted samson's berserk mechanic works, when you get a lot of money at once the enemies become golden and drop more coins when defeated for a set time, fever mode can be extended by killing enemies but to balance things out these enemies become more stronger.
Also, the implementation of a "super rare" enemy that has low hp but is very hard to hit would add more sense of gambling to the mode
I think greedier would be way better than the normal mode if it didn't spawn 10000000 champion enemies per wave for absolutely no reason on floor 1. Going in with just a health upgrade from the silver room and finding 5 champion Globins on your first wave with 3 damage means you already have a negative attitude going into the rest of the run. (assuming you are not dead)
Yeah that's pretty much how my runs have gone
I'm a relatively new player, but I had gotten to Womb once and died immediately from like 50 enemies, but I was playing and died like 4 times in a row to Basement, and then out of fucking nowhere I got a run that took me all the way to beating Ultra Greed.
The consistency is not great.
I went from being complete shit to beating the boss in an instant.
What about Greed mode being the same and Greedier being renamed to Avarice, never knew the difference so maybe they'd be switched around but still, just those two names would work instead of classic greed and neo-greed
only that greed is more money themed then greedier. the pennies, greedy gapers and him chasing pennies to heal. Greedier occasionally drops pennies with his attacks, only uses bomb pennies and...that´s it. not even the brim laser is golden like head of keeper brimstone. He is more of a bomb/hell themed boss since the horn family love to use explosives and adversary/dark one have brim attacks
I like your Greedier change, but I do think the names should stay the same, since your idea for Greedier fits with the actual definition, you explore more rooms and fight more enemies so that you can make more money while at a higher risk to yourself. Also, small nitpick as well, but the 3-4 quality pedestal should be a 30¢ pedestal as opposed to 15¢ as shown in the visual. Besides that, I do really like the rest of your concept for it, I just wanted to make those two suggestions!! :)
My only major problem with Greed mode is that the first floor is always BY FAR the hardest. For some characters nearly impossible. If you can get past that then the rest is usually a breeze.
I'd like some uniqish item/gimmick for Greed mode that's not forced onto the player. I'm thinking setting up turrets, where you can either give yourself items, or your turrets items. Just something else to upgrade rather than yourself all the time. And maybe make Co-op more bearable on big rooms. Don't think this could be done without inherent problems itself though.
I never got why people say you get an extra devil/angel room on the alt path. There are seven opportunities to naturally encounter these rooms whether you stick to either path, or mix them up like a mad man. The exception is choosing The Ascent.
the idea of cantripped cards in greed is really cool. imagine you find a sacred heart or brimstone card and being able to save it for ultra greed
7:20 I think having a black market on top, super secret to the left, and a shop that connects to an ultra secret room to the right would be perfect.
Idea: the red rooms could have a button the same as the one in the main room, and have 2-3 waves so you could get some extra cash
i like your change ideas in the first half, maybe greed could stay the same but greedier could have alot of those early agencies and changes you talked about, i dunno if a full revamp like your second half would be something id like to see, i do like the idea of changing the room size, more room types, and ways to other floors like the alt path and cathedral, maybe for some variety the final boss could have some slight other sin flavoring tweaks to some of its attacks per run, or maybe swap them in after a bit of time in the fight( like sloth could give him more explodey shots, or pride could spawn those weird line things pride spawns, maybe lust just just runs after you more, or something idk).
Greedier -> Gold's curse
basically vampire survivors, but in issac. There is 20 waves (+5 optional elite bossrush style waves for devil or angel room unlocking)
every 4 waves you get a choice from 3-5 item choice based on luck stat. you can choose to take one items or skip an item to block off a lower quality item levels (skipping 1 stops level 0 and 1 items from spawning, skipping 2 will stop level 2 items, ect.) this resets at the start of each floow in order to not end up with just a few high quality items, also skipping a item increases for lunar pool to appear, which is basically 2-4 item choice (again based on luck) that can replace the item pool. the floor count is lowered to 5 floors (+ final boss floor). the floors can have any theme from any floor with the only guaranteed ones being floor number 1 being basement and 6 being what I call now "The Casino" Ultra greed has his normal 2 greedier mode phases, but instead of dying after the 2nd phase. Ultra greed absorbs all the coins from the greed followers from the doors and grows to a tremedous size with this form being called True Supreme Greed (don't judge) (for comparison I would imagine the high dragun from enter the gundeon) his main attack revolving around playing a sĺot machine with 5 outcomes
Outcome 1: slot machine loss. Greed will get angry and start slamming the platform Issac is standing on creating golden shockwaves.
Outcome 2: 777. Greed will celebrate his victory as 2 tsunamis of coins engulf the sides of the arena with coins occasionally flying out of them.
Outcome 3: Keys. Greed will summon and open golden brimstone doors in both horizontal and vertical positions
Outcome 4: Blast off. Greed will toss 2 golden megabombs with a lit fuse and 1 with a delayed mega bomb. these unlike normal megabombs don't destroy the platform permanently.
Outcome 5: King of hearts. Greed will summon 5 giant healing coins that will heal greed by a significant amount if not destroyed.
While I also don't have a good idea of how to rework the final fight I think maybe the idea could be that as you get stronger getting items, the ultra greed also grows stronger and mirroring your power in a way. For example if you decided to go for devil deals the entire run at the end, midway through the fight greed will sort of buy devils favour, (maybe it would be a small cutscene of him throwing money down a hole and getting devil items from below) after which he gains new attacks based on some devil items. Going with the idea you proposed maybe if you decide to only go into dice rooms in the special room he will pull out a dice and reroll the enemies he spawned. You went to mostly curse rooms- few items from the curse room and creating spike traps. Maybe if you skipped the items rooms he will try and grab them and turn them into attacks based off of the planetarium but if you bomb him as he is getting them you have the chance to recover some of them. This would make it so every run greed fight would feel different at the very least and after enough practice you could predict which attacks he might have and strategize accordingly. Still idk I'm not game designer maybe this would be more annoying than fun since he'd have a lot more attacks to prepare for
your ideas for greedier honestly sound really cool.
greeds dumptruck is the reason why the mode isn’t falling off
Geedier mood could be an endless greed mode that either has an infinite amount of waves in one floor, or infinite amount of floors. And the Geedier boss could be a harder alt boss in regular greed mode.
I don't know why I first thought that the title was related to the streak and that he lost the streak. Nice idea tho and awesome the fact they are rebuilding greed mode :D
It would be nice if there are other ultra sins, akin to ultra greed. They can either be alt paths, or just be something to do on the way (like Hush).
Ultra pride does exist, but it isn't as much of a boss as it is more of an easter egg.
IDEAS: (taking some from you and expanding on it)
1: Curse room can be replaced by vault room, dice room, sacrifice room, library(where you have to buy books ala Tainted Keeper) or planetarium. Planetarium chances can be increased similarly to the normal game(don't enter gold treasure room).
2: Alt path can be accessed from the exit room in the same manner as in the regular game, except for Corpse, who instead has a special maggot door that eats tour currently equipped active item(?). Alt path has the extra item choice, slightly bigger shops, slightly more money and maybe a 5% boost to planetarium chances.
3: Off the right wall of the shop is a black/dark gray vault room door. Paying 2 keys would allow you to enter a miniature, regular room sized version of the black market. If on the Alt path,you can also buy one of the knife pieces for $30. The completed knife cuts the Health of your Ultra Greed(not Ultra Greedier) in half, and you can only get 1 unless R key is used.
Great video, i really like your ideas.
A few things i came up with:
The alt path should have both the mirror dimension and the chase section. In the mirror dimension you need to fight the boss waves again and if you can beat them you get a special key (and the money from the waves). Then on the mines floor you can go to the chase section. There you use the key to open a vault that contains either A Dollar or up to 3 Quarters. Taking it/them starts the chase.
The boss from the alt path could be cain (/father) instead of mother or greed. He has a big money problem and is constantly gambling it away, so i think it would be fitting.
Greedier could also be an arcade based version of greed. Instead of a shop there is a special kind of arcade, where there are crane machines with 0-1 quality items that have a 50% chance of paying out, 2 quality items that have a 25% chance of paying out, 3 quality items that have a 10% chance of paying out and 4 quality items that have a 5% chance of paying out (im not a game dev, this could be terribly unbalanced). There would also be a way of refreshing every crane game, that could be a normal restock machine or just a slot in the wall where you pay 5 coins or something. And there would be a risk reward kinda thing. Maybe machines that you gamble your money in, with varying levels of rewards and payout chance, or just your regular blood donation machines. Cain would also really fit as boss for this mode, so someone might need to come up with a different boss for the alt path.
I have an idea, add an arcade run by a beggar with a shell game, a fortune teller, a blood bank, a slot machine, and a few special arcade machines, one with a VR headset, you fight about 3 waves of enemies with a preset item set of 3 to 5 items and get consumables, pickups, or even an item in return! There is a blackjack/poker table as well, and maybe a special vending machine that is a main source of bombs, you can get keys, bombs, hearts, cards, and pills from it, you can encounter a crane game, even before it is unlocked. The cathedral could appear to replace sheol on the alt path and planetarium could replace shop, planetarium could have pieces of ground with teleporters to get to each piece of land.
Thank you for this, I always wondered what people thought about what was wrong with greed mode
You're commentary video are always the most entertaining! Can't wait for a video on the void rework!
I have a idea: so the alt paths could lead to a different ultra sin like ultra wraith who will try to blow u up with giga bombs and ultra lust who tries to summon enemies that are charmed to them and could charm your familiars like siren
What about how Gideon works, with a “boss” that makes the arena more varried…
IMO, after you unlock Keeper and fill up the Greed Machine, there is literally 0 incentive to go back and play through it again, unless you wanna go through individual completion marks and unlocks for each character (For Greed and Greedier mode), which admittedly is needed for full completion, but still, besides that, I don’t think it’s worth going back through-
if someone ever made a mod that made these things real, I would not be surprised to see it hit the top of the workshop.
What about some small rooms connected to the main area, like a mini floor, somehow make that balanced and interesting
I like spewing ideas, so what about some greed minions, like special greed boys, making more enemy variety while sticking to greed gold boys
13:01 imagine seeing monstro but with coin eyes and some different attacks!
I think in neo-greedier should have bumbo steal coins if they lay on the ground for too long and you can hit him and if you defeat him bumbino should spawn
kinda like the gungeon rat, that would be cool
One idea I had would have it so if you wanted to fight Ultra Greedier you would collect the 2 key pieces from the angels, and there would be a big door they open that appears after killing Ultra Greed
As for the boss/ending thing, I have an idea.
In each floor, there is a cracked penny passive item that spawns Greed Gapers over time. It costs ??? coins, which drains all coins and adds a red coin counter for each coin lost. If over 50 coins are lost, Ultra Greed will not show up. Instead, another Ultra Sin shows up, depending on the character. (I'll work that out soon.) This sin has somewhat altered movesets (Think Colored champions with more flare.) If you then beat the boss, the first time you do it, you will get the Greed Mark. The second time onwards though, there will be a donation machine with a HUGE slot. If you put the Cracked Penny in there, you will get a new floor: GIGA (SIN) In here is a completely revamped fight against each sin. (I'll do Lust here.)
Giga Lust actively chases Issac, and spits out Bleeding Hearts that have low health and leave red creep where they go. She also can stop and Blow a Kiss at issac, which follows him and inflicts a slowing Debuff if it touches him. She has less boss armor, but bomb resistance. She also can charm familiars, like Siren. Beating her gives the assigned characters the Greedier Mark (Now called the Sinful Mark) Along with this, beating a sin with less than 5 purchases (cracked penny doesn't count) gets.... IDK, some strong Item.
Let me know if this looks ok.
Bruh, i didnt even notice they gave less money on greedier, i thought it was just harder, thats so lame, you play harder just for less money at the end
They should add a "debt" gimmick. Let you buy items (not pickups) even if you don't have enough coins, but then subtract how much debt you incurred from the next waves until you've "paid it off". Could lead to some really interesting decision making where there's a really good item in the shop, but going into debt robs you of a potentially better item on the next floor or restock. Maybe add a second boss button that, instead of spawning angel/devil deal, clears your debt and makes your next purchase free.
I think it would be really cool for there to be a secret alt final boss that represents dad's abandonment and the pain it caused isaac, like how mother is a representation of mom's cruelty and abuse
Maybe as you do Greedier runs, you unlock other Ultra Sins to fight against. As for who you fight? It's randomized, but the button unpresses itself when the donation machine jams until you killed all the Ultra Sins you currently have unlocked.
My biggest problems with Greed mode are the telefragging enemy spawns and DPS being king.
The telefragging would be simple to solve in 1 of 3 ways: have each wave spawn enemies in the exact same place (like above the button), indicate where they're gonna spawn before they do, or have the game track where you are in the room so it can spawn a wave variation that won't telefrag you.
Now DPS is already important in normal Isaac, but defense and utility items also get to shine there as well. Defense also kinda matters in Greed mode but offense is still overall gonna make you safer in it. I would love for defense items items to matter more and utility items like Dark Bum to actually get to make an impact in your runs.
Alright so let me put down how I'd change things
Greed Mode:
-(As mentioned) Replace the Curse Room with almost any special room (Vault, Dice, Planetarium, Sacrifice, Trap/Boss Trap, Curse, and if you enter the floor with 10 Cents or more, an Arcade).
-(As mentioned) Alt path. I think that just lowering the cost of Mines and Mausoleum floors to just one bomb or one heart is fair enough, but I do like your idea of an extra wave in the exit room. Having a 50% chance for an extra coin as well as the blind option would make it worthwhile most of the time as well.
-(As mentioned) Key Shards and Cantripped Cards in the shop are genius additions, but I would prefer them to be 7 cents rather than 5, just for the sake of balance.
-An alternative ending for Greed would be to have the second phase of Ultra Greed behind the end of the alt path, but you'd sacrifice the final Shop floor to fight him (making your last Greed floor Sheol, or Cathedral if we want to mix it up. Otherwise, we could end the Greed floors at Corpse, but I don't really like that) so it's riskier if your run isn't super strong at that point. It would also be a faster way of getting through Greed Mode if you're doing a speedrun or just want the run to be over.
-Ultra Greed's first phase shouldn't have Boss Armor, or drastically reduce it. It just slows down the fight, and he isn't much of a test of endurance or as fun as Hush is. His second phase doesn't need it either, but it makes more sense and is meant to be more challenging.
-Champion Enemies should drop Pickups and whatnot. It's stupid that they don't and adds more variety and strategy. It's also just fairer.
-Each floor you descend to should add an extra wave, giving you a few more Coins than normal, and giving you more potential for more Items later on. This would help with every floor just being the same, and it would ramp up the difficulty in a more creative way as well. It also works with Greed's whole risk/reward system.
-(taken from other comments) A mark for where Enemies spawn with each wave. Just moving them ever so slightly out of the way isn't fair enough and doesn't really help with the telefragging problem.
-(taken from other comments) Greed Donation Machine shouldn't jam. You can get 999 Coins with Deep Pockets and good management, so a jamming chance isn't a fair punishment for grinding for Greed Mode and Keeper as strong characters.
Alt path with an arcade instead of the shop and final boss being Ultra Gambler and Ultra Gamblerer (Isaac’s dad)
arcade theme would be really cool
@@bd1pLP Ultra Greed and Gambler could be seen as two representatives of Isaac’s need to gamble and take money from Isaac’s mom. Or Ultra Slothier for another alt boss because Bob Sloth is Isaac’s uncle and dad’s brother
One idea i have that is based on the legend of bumbo for neo greed:
The bumbo that sells you stuff could have different costumes based on tlob characters, and their polls be based on that ( bumbo the brave is a pretty standart shop with some other items to make it standout, bumbo the nimble has some treasure and boss room items, bumbo the empty has items from various diferent polls but not exactly chaos) and you could unlock more bumbo costumes based on various things by just playing the mode and gaining achievements, but thats a little bit of a strech
personally i think greedier should lean in to the whole crazy greed collectathon. enemies drop coins on death (like tainty keepo), all item rooms have a choice between two items, reduced shop prices, more items for sale in shops, and harder waves to balance out the sheer amount of items. maybe even add in something where taking damage removes coins or something.
my idea for greedier is: you spawn into a shop, similar to one in current greed. around you there are a few (2-3, maybe 4) rooms of different sizes and obstacles, that act similar to current greed room, but with only like 4-5 waves per room, and there's no way to stop the waves from spawning. in order to proceed, you need to beat all rooms that spawned initially, then a trapdor inside the shop unlocks and makes you able to proceed to the next floor, but also additional 1-2 rooms unlock as well, so you can get more rewards but they are much harder than normal rooms (like having enemies from next floor or something). special rooms also could spawn connected to any of the rooms, but to unlock them you need to pay a certain amount of money, prices depending on the room type, with angel/devil rooms only being connected to the additional rooms spawning after beating normal rooms.
Really cool video, so i want to say some of my own ideas
|i think in the depths, the 2nd boss should be mom
mom would drop the polaroid and the negative. the "shop" area could be renamed the chest, and if you take the polaroid, you go womb-cathedral-chest
if you take the negative, it could be womb-sheol-dark room.
|Since one of the main reasons to go to mausaleum in a normal run is to skip a womb floor (to get an extra item room/shop)
maybe going to a mausaleum floor on greed could give some extra item room, especially since its so much more difficult then normal path
|Planetariums should be in greed by default. if you manage to get one, it'd spawn under where the curse room currently spawns.
|The curse room spot should just be a default special room (curse, item, shop, red/blue trap room, dice, chest or arcade)
|For red/cracked key, i think they should give normal rooms, and have an ultra secret room somewhere on every floor. (Maybe using a key in a place where secret room can spawn has a chance to give you ultra secret room?). Red rooms could have a chance to be a special room, just like in normal mode.
|Remove restock, but 100% that every floor has a restock machine that you use
if the special room is a shop, it could just be normal shop forms, so a chance for restock machine.
These should be enough to make greed/greedier a lot more fun for me, that i would occasionally play them randomly
Also, in the case that they completely like ultra revamp greed, as you gave ideas for
change normal greed mode as well, and maybe make old greed a challenge that gives some unlock (like greed related item)
I think a kinda map like in Slay the Spire would work in Greed mode tbh
Whenever you clear a room, a bunch of rooms open up to go into next, but once you left a room, you cannot go back
The Greedier revamp literally sounds like a bumbo mode for me.
You start a floor, go through a bunch of wave based enemy rooms, get a shop, then the boss, then next floor.
You cant go backwards or branch out, its a straight line.
Exactly how you play Legend of Bumbo
i found this out playing it the other day for the first time since getting repentance (on ps4) but you *can* get different floors such as burning basement and scarred womb show up in their respective floors. so it most likely would be heading to pc versions eventually, id imagine
my ideas:
you could make each level make the wave room look different, like random placement of shops, rooms etc.. or be able to unlock some new rooms with the greed machine. or even add more endings when having 3 or 4 specific items
Every time I played greed mode I broke it by resetting for the D20.
I did it 34 times to unlock each character and that was that. Never again. (unless I needed to find an item for Dead God)
If Downpour gets extra boss waves in the mirror maybe Mines could get some extra waves where you have to fight while being harassed by Mom’s Shadow
I think the Cursed room should stay, but be above the golden item room instead of where it is now, and viola! You can now get your golden item room unlocked via either keys or health now. Plus, it's a buff to the lost, tainted forgotten, and the right side of the shop area :] (and traditionally gives T. Lost the shaft yet again, so Ed would approve I bet) It'll make going through it more worthwhile if you like gambling health strategically now too, because you at least always save a key if you get a bad curse room and travel down from it, so that bet doesn't sound as bad with the room there instead.
My idea for a remade greed mode is kind of the mix of both of your ideas. Every floor has let's say 4 or 5 rooms with enemis + special rooms like grey item room, golden item room, the obvious shop and something unique every floor (dice, curse, arcade etc.) In every room with enemies you have a button. When you press it, wabes of enemies spawn like they do currently, but the 1st 2 rooms only have 5 waves of enemies. The 3rd room is a boss room with 2 boss fights and the 4th room is optional and yields an angel or a devil deal. It's just a thing I thought about watching the video but it would incorporate not staying in one room for the entire floor while making it feel less overwhelming when you don't have enough dps to kill enemies before the next wave spawns because only 5 waves of enemies would spawn in a normal enemy room, and it would also add a little bit of flavour into the mode. As I said, it's an idea in very very early stage and I'm 100% sure it would require some major tweaks. I also son't quite knoe how to differentiate greed from greedier in this scenario. If you have any suggestions I'd be more than happy to hear them out ^^
Moving the mode from just the Sin of Greed to just a general Ultra Sin mode could be pretty cool
I actually enjoy greed mode, greedier mode is a nightmare
same here
I think the easiest fix is to either have you start with like 3 cents or have the item rooms Have an alt path style blind item to choose over your hot garbage Mom's Heels
Unpopular opinion: I think that the Greed mode Donation and Regular mode donation machine should be the same. With the buff/nerf the donation machine got only allowing you to bomb it once, it helps you save up more money in. And if you haven't unlocked Keeper yet (like me), it allows you to have the machine go up while also not having to always play Greed mode. Also I think that it should only be connected to the Donation Machine after filling it up in Regular Mode the first time, since there it is helping upgrade the shop.
Ultra Greed is my favorite boss in the game, so it's sad that these modes suck.
It's fun for the first few times and after that I just reseted until I got a d20
I gor this one idea for wave management. Each wave is seperate, next can't be activated unless you beat the previous. Next I would remove the button to skip wave because it would be useless with this mechanic.
Main part: less waves, but they are more complicated. Each wave has on average more enemies and they spawn as layers
(you beat some enemies, next spawn in)
1st-4th wave - normal waves;
5th wave - boss wave;
6th wave - bonus devil deal wave.
Greedier would have extra normal wave.
Another thing: money. Rewards would scale with the floor youre on.
Basement: 20 coins
Caves: 25 coins
Depths: 30 coins
Womb: 35 coins
Sheol: 40 coins
Shop: 45 coins
Also I would make greedier mode drop as much money as in normal greed mode, because it just stupid to have money disadvantage and not actual challenge.
I want greed mode to live up to its name more. The name suggests you might get punished for greed but you never do unless you count 1 more boss wave for a devil deal. As you enter the new floor I'd like to be given 3 buttons. One will commence the floor as normal and the other two will present a unique challenge when pressed but offer a higher reward. For example, one button might shrink the size of the main room whilst another might force you to play the first few waves as The Lost.
9:50 That's not that much of an issue because of how easy and fast it is. My main issue with greed mode is how hard it is to complete the machine, even in greedier it doesn't allow you to donate all that much to it, and you having to handle if you want powerful items or coins to donate is a balance that can be pretty hard to find.
Honestly, I feel that the biggest issue with the mode is ultra greed himself. Specifically the insane boss armor. You can have a run with really good dps where you rip through everything and then suddenly the entire pool of items you've collected is invalidated entirely because ultra greed gets scaled with your dps. It feels like the only way to win is by getting lucky and getting good synergies that get around the boss armor.
Other bosses with the armor have this issue too but all of them are optional so I never found it too much of an issue there.
I think there's some really strong potential for adding ultra-variants of every sin boss. (Obviously, ultra-pride is not final boss material, so i think you'd just have to rename it to something else.) As a matter of fact, if anyone saw SlayXc2's recent video on the modded boss "Gutso the Great", i think that could work fantastically for an Ultra Gluttony boss, with some changes.
I think it would be interesting if Ultra Sloth experimented with altering Isaac's movement in some way. That could be designing the fight in such a way that encourages the player not to act (but like not in a boring way). Ultra Lust could spawn heart during the fight, but if the player takes one the boss also gets healed a bit. And Ultra Wrath could literally just be Dr. Fetus in a mech ¯\_o_/¯
i would think, in NEO-GREED, instead of a path made of rooms going to the exit, there should instead be just one, REALLY long hallway that gets even longer with every floor, and a giant greed in a 3 by 3 room as the final boss.
I think the alternate boss should be arcade themed, like a giant slot machine at the top of the room or something
I'm a relatively new player and I will say that Greed Mode is incredibly inconsistent.
The basement is straight up infuriating to get through, but I really love the concept and I do genuinely think it's fun (once you get good items)
Also, I've only fought and killed Ultra Greed once, but currently I think it is a SUPER fun and creative bossfight
Most final bosses are really stationary, so I love this giant Golem with a slot machine for eyes constantly stomping around and being a terror a lot. The sound design is great, his animations are great, dude is CAKED up, I love him.
I think the new room layout would be really cool if it was random every run. L shape, 1 by 2 horizontal and/or vertical and a 2x2 room
I like the idea of 7 deadly sins being a theme there
they can be alternative floors
and have special bosses (Ultra Pride, ect. are kinda boring and nothing new so give them a new stronger version like how the harbingers got in the Beast fight)
so you start at the normal floor and after beating it you go to the downpour/dross where at the end you fight a special boss like Mega Lust on the downpour, Mega Sloth on the dross, Mega Wrath on the mines/Ashpit ect.
each would have a special item pool related to them like Mega Gluttony would have hp ups and food related items, Mega Wrath would have item pool of bombs, fire, rage and destruction.
and then the final boss would be a Boss Rush type of fight where you fight all seven of them,
only 2 at once per wave to have it quick and harder
One thing I think greed lacks that regular isaac always had me drawn by is minmaxing or optimization. There's really no thought in resource management besides "do I use beggars, chests, or bomb for a secret room or bomb the shopkeeps?" Where base isaac has a ton of options. Biggest problem child being the market in greed. It's always a choice of "do I buy the items that are present, pay to reroll, or just save for next floor?" And the only thing that can shift the decision is if you're looking for a particular stat or type of item, and if theres something good already for sale, or if there is a discount/ you wanna search for a discount. I feel like more mechanics that push risk vs reward like sacrifice rooms, a snowball mechanic for leaving the timer running longer, or a reward for good play like how vanilla has devol and angel chance.
Item manipulation, having items grouped in similar pools so you have a reason to change floors, and having a clearer early game vs late game split like how base isaac has pre and post mom is also an important key stone to making runs feel unique.
Greed mode is actually really easy if you go for angel deals, but everyone has the tentation to go the first devil deal and you just fuck your health for the rest of the run.
The thing I hate the most about the greed Mode is the first floor.
Without some crowd control, good stats or good luck you get overwhelmed by 20+ enemies.
And the fact that the enemies can spawn on top of you.
i'm suprised you didnt bring up champions at all since theyre pretty much useless other than for the dificulty
maybe reverting greed mode to not have em and neo greed mode having them with a very low chance for drops since its close to a more traditional run
Praise the fish god
I had an idea where if you don’t check the treasure room in greed, there’s a chance for a planetarium to spawn. 40% for each one skipped (since each floor is 2 combined). That would be fun and add more variety and strategy to the mode.
Maybe you get like a 20% chance for skipping gold and like a 10% for silver. A lot of people skip the golden treasure room any way.
@@drakewahl7609 that’s a good point, or maybe reverse, 10% for skipping gold and 20% for skipping silver (because you’re giving up a free stat upgrade)
The part at 3:15 is wrong, you can indeed get scarred womb in greed mode nowadays. Repentance added random floor alts to greed mode (except for the last 3 floors). Though of course it could still use more variety even still.
i spent 15 minutes forcing myself into the womb floor and didn’t see it once, utero is there but i don’t think scarred womb is
@@bd1pLP I tried to reply to this with a link but I think YT filtered it, I was going to say that I got it first try, so it's definitely there. Maybe you were testing on a save without it unlocked or something.
I love the special rooms idea
Sorry I couldn't stop looking at the Chaos forgotten, that thing is so scary
raw excitement at these ideas honestly theyre interesting i loved hearing them :)
was waiting for this vid
My biggest issue with Greed/Greedier:
Despite being named after the sin, there isn't a whole lot that relates to it. I get that Isaac didn't always have strong themes, at least before Repentance.
I wish there was a way to incorporate the idea of greed, of hoarding wealth, or items, that can showcase the idea behind the sin and it's counter Charity.
No idea how this would happen though, I just hope my rambling made sense
There is one thing that we can do as well, rework the shop, and give it fixed items based on their quality, on one side you have quality 0-2 items with a 50% chance of being on discount, and on the other side quality 3-4 items with a 10% chance of being on discount and with variable prices, from 15-30, and always being guaranteed that you will see the R Key on a special secret room behind a spiked rock wall worth 2 bombs and 4 keys at a 50 cents price, making you reconsider living only with the treasure items so you can save money for the R Key, also, place the regular key on the right of the screen, is annoying having to walk that distance every single time.
Another problem with greed mode is that it doesn't really play with its theme really well.
I mean, despite all the money related things there are in greed mode mechanically speaking, greed from the player isn't involved at all.
All of your decisions in this mode are pretty straight forward, you would always prioritize damage upgrades or heath in the shop because that's the only thing keeping you alive, you also need to do all waves to progress so in reality the only real decision is whether or not do the extra wave for an angel or devil deal. That's it.
I think the normal and hard mode had more greed involve that the greed and Greedier mode itselfs.
To me, what a good greed mode should look like is one that incentives greed from greater rewards but punish you for being even greedier.
T keeper mechanics and Devil deals mechanic wise are the perfect example of this concept.
So how would I do greed mode. Well, first i like the idea the keeping the regular greed mode as it is and do something like a neo greed for the crazier ideas.
Still going off from what you say i like the idea of the linear progression with multiple rooms. But there's a few problems. The biggest one is that the shop being at the end before the boss would become the mode as just do waves then buy then repeat and its seems like it would have even less options than regular greed. A simple change is putting the shop at the beggining of the level so then you can shop or save money between progressing through the rooms.
But this idea would work perfectly for my pitch of incentivacing greed. Putting the exit in the first room would be really cool. The rooms in this mode would become exponentially harder but you can always have the possibility to leave the floor from the start instead of continuing. For this to work i would also upgrade the prices of every item, probably depending of their quality. So maybe tech x would cost 45 cents for example.
You then would have the shed decision of doing the two first rooms of the floor and only buy tech x or try to do every room in the floor and buy tech x plus other items.
In difficult terms i would say that doing the two first rooms in every floor would be similar to doing a normal greed run, but trying to do the next rooms would ramp up the difficulty exponentially and the boss of each floor could be a buffed greedified version of other bosses.
To add even more, on the sides of each room there could be special rooms and the more you progress trough the floor the better are this special rooms can be.
This is a radical take, but I'm here for it.