I hate moral relativism and the unfair and convenient way it is applied to certain specific groups of people to justify their bad actions and not receive the punishment they deserve.
Can someone make a collage of all the people Poison Ivy has murdered? Same with Harley Quinn. Just so there's something to bring up whenever anyone tries calling them "heroines".
Well, it's difficult. The DC universe reboots every 4 years. Whatever killings they actually did, may or may not have been retconned. DC constantly rebooting and the canon being in constant flux has been a serious problem since the 80s.
What the heck are you talking about? The lamia story, for example, is literally an action story and villains and heroes have been trading places since the 70s.
I'm beyond caring. Ivy's character has been dead for a while. She's a zombie, an empty shell bereft of what made her interesting. DC tried to make her into this misunderstood enviromentalist anti-hero tied at the hip to Harley Quinn. She was insufferably boring. Modern DC will never bring back femme fatale Ivy, or even the deeply unsettling predatory Ivy as seen in that one shot by Gaiman (the name is escaping me 😖)
Magneto was anti hero during Claremont’s X-men run. It was his long term plan for the character, and Erik only went back to being a villain because editorial demanded it ( which Claremont hated and it contributed to him originally leaving the book. Poison Ivy will be a villain again once she appears in a new live action movie
Turning a villain into a hero is interesting only if it's rarely done, with characters that have not been a serial killer. Unfortunately, most writers do not understand this.
@@thibaldus3 Let's see how he didn't kill innocents if he wanted to kill Batman and the Bat-family in battle for cowl he almost killed Dick, Tim and shot Damian In man's land he almost killed Bruce The predule to under the red hood almost killed Tim and the Titans Final crisis almost kills the batfamily I exploit the school of speedy green arrow vol 3 69 to 72 many of those things before the new 52 and they did a reboot and if he was a villain
Sigh! I wanted Pamela to go back to the way when she first started out. Another femme fatale in love with the DarkKnight Detective. It was a simpler time. Villainesses weren't sociopaths back then. I miss the old times.
It’s odd that defenders want to point to Batman: The Animated Series as a blueprint for how the characters are handled by modern writers when that series portrayed them as villains (and also as partners in crime with a sisterly bond rather than a romantic couple). Admittedly Harley was treated sympathetically at times. “Harley’s Holiday” (a great episode in my opinion) showed Harley as someone who was vulnerable and trying to get her life in order, and the infamous “Mad Love” portrayed her as someone who may have gotten in over her head due to her ambition and naïveté, but still didn’t deserve all the abuse she suffered. However, the series also portrayed her as deserving to be at Arkham a good part of the time because she was doing things that hurt others and herself. Poison Ivy arguably was portrayed less sympathetically than in the comics because she wasn’t shown being manipulated and experimented on by another scientist. There were one or two episodes that showed her in a more sympathetic light, but mainly she just wanted to kill or incapacitate people because she felt they were a threat to the plants. Remember the B:TAS episode that introduced Ivy had her faking tears about Harvey Dent being sick, then laughing in a mocking way as she admitted she’d poisoned him herself. That is not a sympathetic portrayal.
Can't just let a villain be a villain anymore. They have to be a misunderstood antihero or something. Everything morally gray. Writers projecting maybe?
What I find unsettling too is how a villain in a show or movie will do atrocious things, but fans will defend them is the actor is attractive. You can point out the terrible, horrible, no-good very bad things the character did and the fans will shriek and throw fits and insist no, they never did those things they were clearly shown doing and you’re only condemning them because you’re jealous. It’s disturbing. I wonder if those same fans write love letters to convicted murderers and such too.
@@karaoconnoraliasraidra I can understand how some may be sympathetic to villains in a cathartic way especially based on circumstances but to idolize based on superficial attraction is messed up. People are easily manipulated in that way
I’m not up to the lore of Poison Ivy. I only know her from Batman the animated series. But I would rather Poison Ivy be a villain than a hero. She was more interesting that way.
I’m sick of what they’ve done to Harley & Ivy, just give me back Jester Harley, I just despise the new design. I think this is the worst character redesign in the history of comics.
I discovered Poison Ivy as kid reading his Mum’s Silver Age comics and was smitten. All that’s left is the design now, the character has been twisted beyond all recognition by talentless hacks. No surprise the whisper network types that killed Ed Piskor would see heroism in villainy.
In the Gotham City Sirens Poison Ivy literally sided with a plant alien man in order to conquer the world. If she's a hero than Penguin is Gotham's real protector. P.S. Harley wasn't innocent even as Harleen. She cheated her way to become a psychiatrist. She decided to become a psychiatrist because she thought that villains were "glamour" not cause cared about her patients. Joker didn't change her, he gave her a little push
Exactly. She's an abusive sociopath that fell in love with another bigger abusive sociopath (The Joker). Doesn't make her a hero. But to the social marxists: victim = good person.
Agree with you, niccoloproia. Felt for years, Harley shouldn't be treated as an "anti-hero" but as a tragic character. She has still done wrong, and led to the death of innocents.
@@earlsmith7428 precisely. I would say that before New52 (with Palmiotti and Conner's horrible run) Harley was more of a cautionary tale. It's a shame she has been ruined so much over the years cause she was a very well written and complex character. And infortunately Poison Ivy was brought down with her.
My comments are being deleted. The fact is, her now being a lesbian who was previously in a relationship with a straight man, she automatically gets the status of hero by the woke crowd. Same for Ivy. Doesn't matter that they both are sociopaths.
@@thibaldus3 i don't know what to tell you man, i didn't cancel any comments. As for the situation with Harley and Ivy, Harley is defined by her relationship with Joker: the name, the costume, the relationships with the heroes and villains ecc. While for Ivy i think she shouldn't have any real romantical feelings for anyone, if the experiment that made her Poison Ivy is getting deeper (to the point that nowadays she has all these uber plant powers) then her "link" with humanity should be almost non existent. I would say that Poison Ivy and Mr.Freeze are very similar: both brilliant scientists that got exposed to a failed experiment that changed their biology to the point that their humanity is simply hanging by a thread. While for Mr.Freeze the thread is his wife for Poison Ivy you have children (as we saw in the Poison Ivy graphic novel of the 90's or the No Man's Land event). If you want to have a lesbian Batman villain you can either create a new one (which would be great since nowadays Batman basically has no more female villains) or simply expanding on a Batman female villain that was never explored from a romantic point of view (i mean Magpie was never established of a particular orientation, or even better why not Pagan? She even has reasons to despise men after all)
She'll be back, but far much worst than before. Beside, they ruin Ivy ever since they made her lesbian for Harley Quinn and became less of a supervillain.
Greg Rucka did a great story after No Man’s Land where Ivy tries to recreate herself as a protector of children and has her plants take over a park to turn it into an Eden. Eventually she learns that she is endangering the kids in her path to redemption and hands herself over to Batman. That is a redemptive arc that doesn’t redeem her because it can’t. It stays true to her character but doesn’t change her.
Except that Condiment King was never, really, a villain. He was an innocent comedian the Joker brainwashed into believing he was a villain. I haven't touched DC in long time. Did they seriously made him into an actual villain?
I heard someone claim the one who really suffered due to The Condiment King was Alfred since he had to get the ketchup and mustard stains out of Batman’s costume.
Trying to supplant Poison Ivy’s iconic Villainous persona seems a bit rash and I for one am itching to see how turning her into a ‘hero’ proves to be a good idea. After all the horrible stuff she’s done in the past, going to take nothing short of divine intervention to convince me she’s turned a new leaf.
Harley and Ivy murder hordes of men... totally ok. Hank Pym, under extreme stress and mind altering gasses he was accidently exposed to, backhands the Wasp once (which was meant to be a shove in the script) and he is an abuser forever.
Is anyone really surprised, I mean they turned the Green Goblin into a good guy. Next up, DC will give Darkseid the Krakoa Era Apocalypse treatment and he'll be part of the Justice League.
I never read this series but I did enjoy the talk about heroes and villains. Poison Ivy, Magneto and Harley Quinn are good examples of villains who are difficult to see as ant-heroes. The worst story of them all of hero becoming a mass murderer was when they decided to make Hal Jordan go crazy and murder the Guardians, Killowag, Sinestro etc... Terrible idea and much worse than what they did with these villains since Hal Jordan was one of the greatest heroes before. Unfortunately there are certain writers who don't respect the characters and horrible editors who go along with these very bad ideas
Yes and until today Hal never fully recovered that Parallax bullshit. Pre-Emerald Twilight Hal was the greatest Green Lantern ever,after Rebirth he just is more one them.
From what I’ve heard (and someone can correct me if I’m wrong) the reasoning for making Hal a psychotic murderer was ridiculous. Someone said, “Hal’s old, so let’s make a younger Green Lantern character,” and someone else replied, “Let’s make the new guy look good by making Hal a murderous supervillain!” HUH!?!? There were probably at least a dozen different ways they could have promoted Kyle without demonizing Hal! They could have had Hal mentor Kyle, like Batman did with Jason Todd and Tim Drake. They could have had Hal die a heroic death and have Kyle pick up the mantle to honor him, like with Barry Allen and Wally West. They could have had both heroes doing their own things while respecting each other, like Superman with both Steel and Superboy. Instead they went straight for the nuclear option, and that is pitiful. I also don’t like the excuse they made that, “Well, he lost so many people dear to him, so of course he’s going to snap!” Really? That lets you know what the writers at the time thought of people who have experienced terrible tragedies.
For me a lot of what doesn't work about these villains into anti heroes or heroes concept. Is no writer, at all these days tries to ever show them having to face backlash or criticism after their sudden change. You never see the victims or family's of the victims give them a proper tongue lashings for what they did in their past. I don't remember what comic as I read it a long ass time ago, but there was some Harley Quinn comic that had an example of this idea done poorly. I believe someone tried to bring up her past of messed up moments, then just immediately got shut down with a "Oh but Joker messed with her head, it's his fault" type of quote, and I feel like I remember the person not even trying to challenge that response. They instead were just so supportive and understanding of Harley's plight. Like she didn't do things like try to kill kids of her own free will, it was all Joker's doing by messing with her head. Like he didn't have mind control, that isn't a power he has (I'm amazed these moronic writers haven't tried to work that in a retcon though to somehow shut us all down, and give Harley a proper out.). Just writing her misdeeds off and never challenging her past, and doing it over a long period and showing her make up for the wrong doings. Is flat out dumb. Like I don't think she could ever repay for what she has done or tried to do, it's just not doable. But the effort to try and that struggle, is never portrayed for her or any bad guy turned good guy these days. God this exact idea and concept I saw get done better as a kid watching an episode of Batman Beyond where Mr Freeze of all people in the DCAU works tried to make up for his past deeds, and he did it pretty decently in a way you could to a degree get behind. Granted he didn't kill kids in that rendition to my knowledge so it was a bit of an easier pill to try and swallow. But it was more of an effort for a random one off episode of a show made for kids, then I have ever seen any of these current comic writers even attempt to do. Now I'm just supposed to consume, and accept whatever they write and not worry about years of continuity, or characterization for people feeling off, or bad art. “Nah pal consume it, it's comics pal. You like comics, hey look it's kind of something that feels like a thing you used to love, just squint buddy I swear it's still what you remember. Promise. Don't read the past stuff by the way before reading this. Just trust us, what we are doing is on the level with that past stuff. In Fact it's better, this stuff is more politically correct, it's more sanitized than stuff in the past while written amazingly, with stellar art too. The old comics got inappropriate stuff, so just don't read them again. Read our new works, they are better. Promise pal, we mean it. Just trust us.” Just so bored of the big two. Great video as always, pleasure to watch in my down times after work or on breaks. Keep it up as per always!! 👍
Wes, my opinion on why these modern writers keep trying to turn villains into antiheroes is that they write themselves into the characters and want to project themselves onto these characters so that when they say and do something bad in real life and you call them out, them having these stories under their belts makes them feel justified doing bad things and they can say “hey! I’m a hero. Why are you treating me like this? I wrote Superman.”
I remember a few years ago Harley Quinn was in a comic where someone had sabotaged video games to explode when they were started up in video game consoles across the city. She thwarted the bad guy from setting them off and then just set him off anyway because she thought it'd be funny meaning she literally killed hundreds of kids across the city.
I think any writer incapable of writing an evil supervillain should be fired! He or she should not be able to get a comic book gig. Redeeming villains should be an exception not the norm.
Yeah, I like old Poison Ivy. I like old Harley Quinn. I even like old idea of them possibly being in a twisted sort of relationship where they sort of complete each other in ways. I don't like this attempt to make them into lovey-dovey anti-heroes. Not in the slightest. Not that it matters. I don't read either of the big two, anyway.
I love Poison Ivy character. She always one of my Top 10 Batman villains. A gorgeous redhead woman that is a cruel,sadistic mass murderer willing to kill the entire mankind for the mother nature. DC just ruined her character for anything. I feel that female villains just cannot be evil anymore just misguided noble serial killers at the best. So lame.
Heroes and Villains in Marvel and DC comics rarely ever stay dead. Poison Ivy will be back soon. Look how quickly Marvel brought back the annoying Ms Marvel. I wish I could come back from the dead like that. lol.
I remember the first time I saw Poison Ivy was in Batman Animated when it was on tv in my teens. Villians need to just be villians. Will Drew live this down? They could have just Harley stop Ivy from what she was doing so make Harley hero by stopping her girlfriend.
Warner Brothers and DC just wanted to make her their copy of Deadpool as from Suicide Squad - Guardians of the Galaxy, not realizing that they are different characters with different ideas and styles.
Strong woman ≠ Strong character. An evil, flawed character will always be more interesting than a character that is only based on 2020's "yass queen" who don't need no man.
The only good thing about this comic is Ivy getting unlimited power after tapping into the Green so that she can defeat Jason Woodrue and save the world. The one thing I can criticize is Janet-From-HR being here because… reasons.
I think they are trying to make villans less evil because the influence the Hbo tv show hit "GOT" had on the culture except they don't do the grey characters as well as G.R.R. Martin did 😢.
I had a similar reaction when they turned Floronic Man into a hero called Floro in the Nee Guardians in the 80s. Heel and face turns can be fun but should be logical and not frequent. Making a villain a hero just due to popularity is a weird concept(Venom never recovered) and you can write a book starring a villain: look how many there were in the 1970s. Marvel has basically done the same thing with Nebula: can’t have a female murderer be popular, make her good!
Idk i do think people can be rehabilitated and Batman does want his villains to be rehabbed anyway but you need a reason for it to happen. You haven't watched Btas but the episode where Batman tries to rehab Harley is a pretty good example. More to turn them into regualr people who don't commit crimes than heroes.
At their core, Harley Quinn is a psychopath and Poison Ivy is a genius Bio Flora Engineer who values plants, trees and flowers over the life of humans.
Best redemption arc for ivy, and depiction of ivy and Harley's friendship, is in the Bruce Timm animated Batman and Harley Movie. I was suprised at how much a liked that movie, yes even with Harley and Nightwing having a bondage session. (No shit. This happens ) Despite that, it has a nice touch with Ivy's environmental fanaticism about to go way to far, but found sense after taking psychedelic swamp thing fruit and Harley crying. You know, I'm starting to rethink my take on this movie...
I gave up after the initial six issues that it originally what it was because I had the feeling it would lose its way and fall back on "heroic Ivy." Don't forget there have been times where it was heavily implied/outright said Ivy pulled a Purple Man with some of her male victims (Bruce in Long Halloween, Count Vertigo in Ostrander's Suicide Squad). Likewise, I have that issue of Detective Comics you are talking about. Ivy basically picked up random people to make snuff films for herself. But since she's a popular, attractive LGBT female character we can just pretend all that didn't happen and just use her and Harley as Pride Month Power Couple/Cover Fodder alongside Apollo/Midnighter. Crap like this makes me more grateful for Punchline even if I'm not that big on her, at least she's strictly a villain so far.
"In comics, no one ever stays dead" You know what wes, I'll make a bet with you lol. I bet frank castle punisher stays dead for the remainder of marvels current president/editors intill their completely replaced.
The best version of POISON IVY is in my action-figure-series I made. 😂 I am starting very soon with another BATMAN-series with IVY in it. Not as the main-badguy. But it is an important part.
Anyone else remember when Ms. Isley first appeared in the sixties or seventies? Or in the newspaper strip in the same era? Sigh! But no. According to some critics, having one femme fatale, being a romantic interest in the Batman universe is enough. That being Ms. Kyle. To be honest, (and I prefer the sixties) all the femme fatales should be fighting over the Darknight Detective. Great days.
Well, at least this _should_ put an end to Lesbian Ivy, for a while. That's one good thing to come out of this dumb decision... unless, of course, it's instantly undone (which it probably will be). I _really wish_ they'd stop turning villains "good" just because they're gay or otherwise _"diverse."_
I think you mean Ravager/Rose Wilson? She originally joined the Titans in the 90s and Geoff Johns made her Deathstroke Girl Villain for his Teen Titans and later set her up to be a hero again. Since then she skirted the line with mostly leaning on anti-hero much like Catwoman has for years already.
“…she began to see the benefits of human life rather than just the negatives.” This was already done in Batman: No Man’s Land when she cared for some children who had been orphaned. I guess you could shrug that off as “Well, that was before the universe got reset again” but that doesn’t change the fact that writers today keep thinking their stories have never been done before when they have.
It’s stuff like this that makes me regret trying to get back into comics by buying omnibus’ and going through my dad’s old comics collection (being a vet and patriot, of course it’s almost all Captain America with the occasional Doctor Strange). What I hate is how everyone treats being good as easy by claiming stuff like “Don’t be an asshole/why do holy books take thousands of pages to say Don’t be an asshole/judgemental etc”. If they’d bother to study history and read various faiths holy books, they’d see being good is insanely hard and evil easy. If DC would go back to making superheroes, ya know, HEROES, and super villains back to straight up villains, it’d be refreshing, especially as a study of how easy it is to fall and how hard it is to plant yourself like a root and tell a crooked world “No, you move.”
I think everyone should have the chance to turn things around and not killing Batman villains in particular is kind of a "rule," since the idea of redemption is the entire reason Batman doesn't kill them. That said, Harley and Ivy are never treated badly by the writers and no amount of abuse changes the fact that they did what they did...Quite vindictively too. Also, a Harley redemption theoretically works because she only went into crime for the love of one person; if she were to cut him from her life, she'd have no reason to continue being evil. Ivy, on the other hand, is a crusader who would consider anything less than eco-terrorism to be irresponsible and letting evil people win. Harley's tragedy originally worked because you knew she could have been a good person if she lost a bad influence; Ivy's tragedy works because no matter how many good traits she has, she'll always have values that make it impossible for her live in society, so redemption stories just don't fit her. Also, just because sympathetic and nuanced villains are cool doesn't mean they all have to be like that. Joker, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom, Onomatopoeia (I would have said Deadshot, but they've been trying to make him sympathetic lately too), Shocker, all good villains because they're just a-holes and remind you that being a superhero is friggin' dangerous.
Hope that when they resurrect her, they don't make her the version from the Suicide Squad Kill the Justice League game. She's a little girl for some reason and when you gain her favor, she dispenses ice-based powers to the team. Yes, you read that right, ice-based powers.
I remember reading a Paul Dini Detective comics story, and if i remember correctly she tried to seduce teenager Tim Drake (before he was gay) so she can murder him . . . Thats evil! Also, im pretty sure she was feeding men to plants again in that issue.
I consider ones like magneto more as 'neutrals' who 'could' be heroes if they kept at it. cuz i mean if you say ivy and magneto can never be heroes, then under the same vein you can't say gambit or wolverine could ever be heroes, because they kill even presently. remember gambit killing all those thieves and assassins in his story? or wolverine killing anyone? so no, i do think based on comic lore that ones like ivy and magneto can be heroes. but they'd need to keep with it storywise and they have a lot of dificulty doing that which is the real problem. they've kept at it with venom which is why people accept him as a hero now, but with ones like magneto they haven't cuz they keep having him flip back and forth probably cuz they have difficulty of thinking of villains that could replace him or challenge him. same will likely happen with ivy is what i'm betting, "if" comics last that long
In general, I'm not a fan of transforming a villain into a hero. I miss Venom being a straight, villainous murderer. I'm OK with a redemption arc on an unpopular character. Maybe an attempt to get more fans. But if they're already popular as a villain, why change it. Strangely, I'm OK with a hero becoming a villain. Not sure why.
You're missing the point. Men Bad. Women Good. And if women bad, then it's because of men so they shouldn't be held accountable. Accountability is women's kryptonite.
Having women as villains is problematic and feeds the patriarchy…. Translation: “we are feeding the agenda because giving excuses to being bad, selfish and not having morals is way easier than doing what’s right by others.”
So she becomes a hero by murdering the villain? That’s not much more heroic than she had been previously right? She’ll always be a murderer, that’s not something most people can forget.
Look I'm fine with them becoming Heroes as long as it's done properly. This is NOT doing it properly. I like redemption. The whole point of redemption is that people can come back from anything no matter how terrible they've been. Thats a good concept. Having some villains become Heroes or pick different paths in life should be the norm because comics is a constant ongoing story and the same characters can't all remain villains for the next 100 years. They can't keep getting their asses kicked as the villains over and over otherwise people will question why the hell they're still doing this. They HAVE to move on and do something else. They have to evolve. But it seems like NO ONE at DC is interested in giving them an actual redemption arc. They keep trying to speed run it and take short cuts. Real redemption requires introspection. It requires a person taking a real look at themselves in the mirror and looking at all of their flaws and mistakes and realizing that they were wrong. Then going above and beyond to make up for it whether anyone agrees with them or not. DC just seems utterly incapable of this for some reason. Most likely because writing an actual redemption would require these writers to actually look at themselves and admit fault in their own lives. And they can't do that.
Well....while your statement regarding villainous characters not being able to come back from certain heinous acts is 100% true in principal, this is comics. With all the retconning and memory-holing that goes on in this medium, how many of those past crimes are even still part of continuty?
The comics of today reflect with their protagonists the villainy and self interest any honest person can see in our so called leaders. The current poison ivy arc is a representation of gain of function research and its aftermath and an attempt to justify it to the plebs.
Wes forgot the golden rule in modern comics... no one in the alphabet community can be a villain.
It's the women who can't be villains. It's too misogynistic
im sick of DC trying to give harley and Ivy a redemption arc while skipping over the redemption part of it. plus those two are way overused nowadays
You are not wrong
💯
Harley and Ivy are cool being villains! They are villains!
@@ReidosDuendes-is5wx 👏
Also people will forget Ivy is or was a sexual predator.
Reginald Bushroot: I want to become a hero, Darkwing! How do I start?
Darkwing: Have DC writers kill you off.
Lol she died the moment she started A relationship with Harley
I hate moral relativism and the unfair and convenient way it is applied to certain specific groups of people to justify their bad actions and not receive the punishment they deserve.
Can someone make a collage of all the people Poison Ivy has murdered? Same with Harley Quinn. Just so there's something to bring up whenever anyone tries calling them "heroines".
Well, it's difficult. The DC universe reboots every 4 years. Whatever killings they actually did, may or may not have been retconned. DC constantly rebooting and the canon being in constant flux has been a serious problem since the 80s.
She’ll be back soon enough…DC just announced Ivy’s appearance in Leah Williams new dog-water looking Gotham City Sirens reboot in August. 🙄
Wow DC didn't even let the idea of ivy being dead sit long huh?
Death is meaningless in comics.
Do you still remember when heroes were heroes, villains were villains and superheroes were action stories?
I miss these times.
@@EvandroACruz I miss too, bro
Disney did what they did with everything: turned it into a girl brand.
What the heck are you talking about? The lamia story, for example, is literally an action story and villains and heroes have been trading places since the 70s.
I'm beyond caring.
Ivy's character has been dead for a while. She's a zombie, an empty shell bereft of what made her interesting.
DC tried to make her into this misunderstood enviromentalist anti-hero tied at the hip to Harley Quinn. She was insufferably boring.
Modern DC will never bring back femme fatale Ivy, or even the deeply unsettling predatory Ivy as seen in that one shot by Gaiman (the name is escaping me 😖)
Magneto was anti hero during Claremont’s X-men run. It was his long term plan for the character, and Erik only went back to being a villain because editorial demanded it ( which Claremont hated and it contributed to him originally leaving the book.
Poison Ivy will be a villain again once she appears in a new live action movie
Turning a villain into a hero is interesting only if it's rarely done, with characters that have not been a serial killer. Unfortunately, most writers do not understand this.
Most Writers don't know much of anything these days it seems
*cough* Omni-Man *cough*
Cough Jason Todd, Vegeta, Eren, y slade cough
@@annymora-rq6viTodd didn't kill innocents.
@@thibaldus3 Let's see how he didn't kill innocents if he wanted to kill Batman and the Bat-family in battle for cowl he almost killed Dick, Tim and shot Damian
In man's land he almost killed Bruce
The predule to under the red hood almost killed Tim and the Titans
Final crisis almost kills the batfamily
I exploit the school of speedy green arrow vol 3 69 to 72 many of those things before the new 52 and they did a reboot and if he was a villain
I don’t think anti hero magneto is a bad idea if they do acknowledge the horrible things he done and has to make amends with.
Poison Ivy was best as a villian. She really shined in the Batman Arkham Asylum video game.
Sigh! I wanted Pamela to go back to the way when she first started out. Another femme fatale in love with the DarkKnight Detective. It was a simpler time. Villainesses weren't sociopaths back then. I miss the old times.
I'm so tired of every female character in DC being gay.
I am pretty sure Ivy was still a sociopath even back then.
@@zemox2534 Perhaps, but not as bad as she is now.
Nature girl is one of my favorite X-Men characters i’m still pissed that they turned her into a crazy terrorist.
Damn sorry to hear about that of the z lister like her She will never be able to recover.
Another character destroyed.
Stop trying to make Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy heroes. They're tragic characters, but they're still horrible monsters.
I always consider Harley Quinn and poison ivy anti-villains, but at the end of the day villains
Tragic villains but still villains.
It’s odd that defenders want to point to Batman: The Animated Series as a blueprint for how the characters are handled by modern writers when that series portrayed them as villains (and also as partners in crime with a sisterly bond rather than a romantic couple). Admittedly Harley was treated sympathetically at times. “Harley’s Holiday” (a great episode in my opinion) showed Harley as someone who was vulnerable and trying to get her life in order, and the infamous “Mad Love” portrayed her as someone who may have gotten in over her head due to her ambition and naïveté, but still didn’t deserve all the abuse she suffered. However, the series also portrayed her as deserving to be at Arkham a good part of the time because she was doing things that hurt others and herself. Poison Ivy arguably was portrayed less sympathetically than in the comics because she wasn’t shown being manipulated and experimented on by another scientist. There were one or two episodes that showed her in a more sympathetic light, but mainly she just wanted to kill or incapacitate people because she felt they were a threat to the plants. Remember the B:TAS episode that introduced Ivy had her faking tears about Harvey Dent being sick, then laughing in a mocking way as she admitted she’d poisoned him herself. That is not a sympathetic portrayal.
Can't just let a villain be a villain anymore. They have to be a misunderstood antihero or something. Everything morally gray. Writers projecting maybe?
Nowadays Morality and Popularity are intrinsictly linked.
What I find unsettling too is how a villain in a show or movie will do atrocious things, but fans will defend them is the actor is attractive. You can point out the terrible, horrible, no-good very bad things the character did and the fans will shriek and throw fits and insist no, they never did those things they were clearly shown doing and you’re only condemning them because you’re jealous. It’s disturbing. I wonder if those same fans write love letters to convicted murderers and such too.
@@karaoconnoraliasraidra I can understand how some may be sympathetic to villains in a cathartic way especially based on circumstances but to idolize based on superficial attraction is messed up. People are easily manipulated in that way
I’m not up to the lore of Poison Ivy. I only know her from Batman the animated series. But I would rather Poison Ivy be a villain than a hero. She was more interesting that way.
I’m sick of what they’ve done to Harley & Ivy, just give me back Jester Harley, I just despise the new design. I think this is the worst character redesign in the history of comics.
I discovered Poison Ivy as kid reading his Mum’s Silver Age comics and was smitten. All that’s left is the design now, the character has been twisted beyond all recognition by talentless hacks. No surprise the whisper network types that killed Ed Piskor would see heroism in villainy.
In the Gotham City Sirens Poison Ivy literally sided with a plant alien man in order to conquer the world.
If she's a hero than Penguin is Gotham's real protector.
P.S. Harley wasn't innocent even as Harleen.
She cheated her way to become a psychiatrist.
She decided to become a psychiatrist because she thought that villains were "glamour" not cause cared about her patients.
Joker didn't change her, he gave her a little push
Exactly. She's an abusive sociopath that fell in love with another bigger abusive sociopath (The Joker). Doesn't make her a hero. But to the social marxists: victim = good person.
Agree with you, niccoloproia. Felt for years, Harley shouldn't be treated as an "anti-hero" but as a tragic character. She has still done wrong, and led to the death of innocents.
@@earlsmith7428 precisely.
I would say that before New52 (with Palmiotti and Conner's horrible run) Harley was more of a cautionary tale.
It's a shame she has been ruined so much over the years cause she was a very well written and complex character.
And infortunately Poison Ivy was brought down with her.
My comments are being deleted. The fact is, her now being a lesbian who was previously in a relationship with a straight man, she automatically gets the status of hero by the woke crowd. Same for Ivy. Doesn't matter that they both are sociopaths.
@@thibaldus3 i don't know what to tell you man, i didn't cancel any comments.
As for the situation with Harley and Ivy, Harley is defined by her relationship with Joker: the name, the costume, the relationships with the heroes and villains ecc.
While for Ivy i think she shouldn't have any real romantical feelings for anyone, if the experiment that made her Poison Ivy is getting deeper (to the point that nowadays she has all these uber plant powers) then her "link" with humanity should be almost non existent.
I would say that Poison Ivy and Mr.Freeze are very similar: both brilliant scientists that got exposed to a failed experiment that changed their biology to the point that their humanity is simply hanging by a thread.
While for Mr.Freeze the thread is his wife for Poison Ivy you have children (as we saw in the Poison Ivy graphic novel of the 90's or the No Man's Land event).
If you want to have a lesbian Batman villain you can either create a new one (which would be great since nowadays Batman basically has no more female villains) or simply expanding on a Batman female villain that was never explored from a romantic point of view (i mean Magpie was never established of a particular orientation, or even better why not Pagan? She even has reasons to despise men after all)
She'll be back, but far much worst than before. Beside, they ruin Ivy ever since they made her lesbian for Harley Quinn and became less of a supervillain.
Greg Rucka did a great story after No Man’s Land where Ivy tries to recreate herself as a protector of children and has her plants take over a park to turn it into an Eden. Eventually she learns that she is endangering the kids in her path to redemption and hands herself over to Batman. That is a redemptive arc that doesn’t redeem her because it can’t. It stays true to her character but doesn’t change her.
People don't realize Poison Ivy has a long history of Horticulture Clones. Her clones are more fully plant based. And they love swamp thing.
Let them keep this up and soon we'll only have Condiment King as the last true villain
Except that Condiment King was never, really, a villain. He was an innocent comedian the Joker brainwashed into believing he was a villain. I haven't touched DC in long time. Did they seriously made him into an actual villain?
@@jhonmaverick9963 they have not, that's part of the joke
I heard someone claim the one who really suffered due to The Condiment King was Alfred since he had to get the ketchup and mustard stains out of Batman’s costume.
@@karaoconnoraliasraidra that monster
Trying to supplant Poison Ivy’s iconic Villainous persona seems a bit rash and I for one am itching to see how turning her into a ‘hero’ proves to be a good idea. After all the horrible stuff she’s done in the past, going to take nothing short of divine intervention to convince me she’s turned a new leaf.
Harley and Ivy murder hordes of men... totally ok.
Hank Pym, under extreme stress and mind altering gasses he was accidently exposed to, backhands the Wasp once (which was meant to be a shove in the script) and he is an abuser forever.
I didn’t even know she was sick.
Remember when villains were allowed to be bloody villains?
Is anyone really surprised, I mean they turned the Green Goblin into a good guy. Next up, DC will give Darkseid the Krakoa Era Apocalypse treatment and he'll be part of the Justice League.
I never read this series but I did enjoy the talk about heroes and villains. Poison Ivy, Magneto and Harley Quinn are good examples of villains who are difficult to see as ant-heroes. The worst story of them all of hero becoming a mass murderer was when they decided to make Hal Jordan go crazy and murder the Guardians, Killowag, Sinestro etc... Terrible idea and much worse than what they did with these villains since Hal Jordan was one of the greatest heroes before. Unfortunately there are certain writers who don't respect the characters and horrible editors who go along with these very bad ideas
Yes and until today Hal never fully recovered that Parallax bullshit. Pre-Emerald Twilight Hal was the greatest Green Lantern ever,after Rebirth he just is more one them.
From what I’ve heard (and someone can correct me if I’m wrong) the reasoning for making Hal a psychotic murderer was ridiculous. Someone said, “Hal’s old, so let’s make a younger Green Lantern character,” and someone else replied, “Let’s make the new guy look good by making Hal a murderous supervillain!” HUH!?!? There were probably at least a dozen different ways they could have promoted Kyle without demonizing Hal! They could have had Hal mentor Kyle, like Batman did with Jason Todd and Tim Drake. They could have had Hal die a heroic death and have Kyle pick up the mantle to honor him, like with Barry Allen and Wally West. They could have had both heroes doing their own things while respecting each other, like Superman with both Steel and Superboy. Instead they went straight for the nuclear option, and that is pitiful. I also don’t like the excuse they made that, “Well, he lost so many people dear to him, so of course he’s going to snap!” Really? That lets you know what the writers at the time thought of people who have experienced terrible tragedies.
not plant mommy!
I love HARLEY QUINN as a villain. I love her in the first two ARKHAM-games.
I think they are trying to make 'Suicide Squad: kills the Justice League' character cannon. You know, the little girl Poison Ivy a thing.
For me a lot of what doesn't work about these villains into anti heroes or heroes concept. Is no writer, at all these days tries to ever show them having to face backlash or criticism after their sudden change. You never see the victims or family's of the victims give them a proper tongue lashings for what they did in their past. I don't remember what comic as I read it a long ass time ago, but there was some Harley Quinn comic that had an example of this idea done poorly. I believe someone tried to bring up her past of messed up moments, then just immediately got shut down with a "Oh but Joker messed with her head, it's his fault" type of quote, and I feel like I remember the person not even trying to challenge that response. They instead were just so supportive and understanding of Harley's plight.
Like she didn't do things like try to kill kids of her own free will, it was all Joker's doing by messing with her head. Like he didn't have mind control, that isn't a power he has (I'm amazed these moronic writers haven't tried to work that in a retcon though to somehow shut us all down, and give Harley a proper out.). Just writing her misdeeds off and never challenging her past, and doing it over a long period and showing her make up for the wrong doings. Is flat out dumb. Like I don't think she could ever repay for what she has done or tried to do, it's just not doable. But the effort to try and that struggle, is never portrayed for her or any bad guy turned good guy these days.
God this exact idea and concept I saw get done better as a kid watching an episode of Batman Beyond where Mr Freeze of all people in the DCAU works tried to make up for his past deeds, and he did it pretty decently in a way you could to a degree get behind. Granted he didn't kill kids in that rendition to my knowledge so it was a bit of an easier pill to try and swallow. But it was more of an effort for a random one off episode of a show made for kids, then I have ever seen any of these current comic writers even attempt to do.
Now I'm just supposed to consume, and accept whatever they write and not worry about years of continuity, or characterization for people feeling off, or bad art. “Nah pal consume it, it's comics pal. You like comics, hey look it's kind of something that feels like a thing you used to love, just squint buddy I swear it's still what you remember. Promise. Don't read the past stuff by the way before reading this. Just trust us, what we are doing is on the level with that past stuff. In Fact it's better, this stuff is more politically correct, it's more sanitized than stuff in the past while written amazingly, with stellar art too. The old comics got inappropriate stuff, so just don't read them again. Read our new works, they are better. Promise pal, we mean it. Just trust us.”
Just so bored of the big two. Great video as always, pleasure to watch in my down times after work or on breaks. Keep it up as per always!! 👍
Both characters are dead, just like the company they come from
It's because these writers are villains themselves who think they are heroes.
Wes, my opinion on why these modern writers keep trying to turn villains into antiheroes is that they write themselves into the characters and want to project themselves onto these characters so that when they say and do something bad in real life and you call them out, them having these stories under their belts makes them feel justified doing bad things and they can say “hey! I’m a hero. Why are you treating me like this? I wrote Superman.”
If all the villains become heroes, who are the heroes fighting then?
Each other.
I remember a few years ago Harley Quinn was in a comic where someone had sabotaged video games to explode when they were started up in video game consoles across the city. She thwarted the bad guy from setting them off and then just set him off anyway because she thought it'd be funny meaning she literally killed hundreds of kids across the city.
Death is meaningless, and you get a free retcon! Where's the drawback (for the writer)?
I think any writer incapable of writing an evil supervillain should be fired!
He or she should not be able to get a comic book gig.
Redeeming villains should be an exception not the norm.
They claim you can only write yourself in comics, but all these villains certainly are bad at writing themselves.
@@linusgustafsson2629 that’s some bullshit claim. Only someone that can’t write would say that.
Yeah, I like old Poison Ivy. I like old Harley Quinn. I even like old idea of them possibly being in a twisted sort of relationship where they sort of complete each other in ways. I don't like this attempt to make them into lovey-dovey anti-heroes. Not in the slightest. Not that it matters. I don't read either of the big two, anyway.
I love Poison Ivy character. She always one of my Top 10 Batman villains. A gorgeous redhead woman that is a cruel,sadistic mass murderer willing to kill the entire mankind for the mother nature. DC just ruined her character for anything. I feel that female villains just cannot be evil anymore just misguided noble serial killers at the best. So lame.
Poison Ivy dead? For like, what, 1-issue?
Well, fuck this.
It's headcanon from here on out.
Heroes and Villains in Marvel and DC comics rarely ever stay dead. Poison Ivy will be back soon. Look how quickly Marvel brought back the annoying Ms Marvel. I wish I could come back from the dead like that. lol.
I remember the first time I saw Poison Ivy was in Batman Animated when it was on tv in my teens. Villians need to just be villians. Will Drew live this down? They could have just Harley stop Ivy from what she was doing so make Harley hero by stopping her girlfriend.
She will probably come back as a mutant ;-)
Trying to make Harley Quinn a hero is like trying to give the Manson Family a redemption arc.
Warner Brothers and DC just wanted to make her their copy of Deadpool as from Suicide Squad - Guardians of the Galaxy, not realizing that they are different characters with different ideas and styles.
Strong woman ≠ Strong character.
An evil, flawed character will always be more interesting than a character that is only based on 2020's "yass queen" who don't need no man.
"So stunning and brave! Yasss, Queen! Slay!"
The battle cry of all feminists who fight against the patriarchy.
🙄😒
The only good thing about this comic is Ivy getting unlimited power after tapping into the Green so that she can defeat Jason Woodrue and save the world. The one thing I can criticize is Janet-From-HR being here because… reasons.
I think they are trying to make villans less evil because the influence the Hbo tv show hit "GOT" had on the culture except they don't do the grey characters as well as G.R.R. Martin did 😢.
Oh the rainbow flag Infection and how would completely destroys characters.
I had a similar reaction when they turned Floronic Man into a hero called Floro in the Nee Guardians in the 80s. Heel and face turns can be fun but should be logical and not frequent.
Making a villain a hero just due to popularity is a weird concept(Venom never recovered) and you can write a book starring a villain: look how many there were in the 1970s.
Marvel has basically done the same thing with Nebula: can’t have a female murderer be popular, make her good!
Idk i do think people can be rehabilitated and Batman does want his villains to be rehabbed anyway but you need a reason for it to happen. You haven't watched Btas but the episode where Batman tries to rehab Harley is a pretty good example. More to turn them into regualr people who don't commit crimes than heroes.
Awesome work mate
I do agree with you on making new villians. I'm tired of the overuse of the old villians.
One more day of me being glad they've still forgotten enough about John to leave him alone.
The character was never more interesting to me than when she was a femme fatale. As a misandrist lesbian, she blows.
At their core, Harley Quinn is a psychopath and Poison Ivy is a genius Bio Flora Engineer who values plants, trees and flowers over the life of humans.
Best redemption arc for ivy, and depiction of ivy and Harley's friendship, is in the Bruce Timm animated Batman and Harley Movie. I was suprised at how much a liked that movie, yes even with Harley and Nightwing having a bondage session. (No shit. This happens ) Despite that, it has a nice touch with Ivy's environmental fanaticism about to go way to far, but found sense after taking psychedelic swamp thing fruit and Harley crying. You know, I'm starting to rethink my take on this movie...
I gave up after the initial six issues that it originally what it was because I had the feeling it would lose its way and fall back on "heroic Ivy." Don't forget there have been times where it was heavily implied/outright said Ivy pulled a Purple Man with some of her male victims (Bruce in Long Halloween, Count Vertigo in Ostrander's Suicide Squad). Likewise, I have that issue of Detective Comics you are talking about. Ivy basically picked up random people to make snuff films for herself. But since she's a popular, attractive LGBT female character we can just pretend all that didn't happen and just use her and Harley as Pride Month Power Couple/Cover Fodder alongside Apollo/Midnighter. Crap like this makes me more grateful for Punchline even if I'm not that big on her, at least she's strictly a villain so far.
"In comics, no one ever stays dead"
You know what wes, I'll make a bet with you lol. I bet frank castle punisher stays dead for the remainder of marvels current president/editors intill their completely replaced.
I never bothered with Poison Ivy, the covers were fine, but that internal art is vomit causing....
The best version of POISON IVY is in my action-figure-series I made. 😂 I am starting very soon with another BATMAN-series with IVY in it. Not as the main-badguy. But it is an important part.
Geat analysis, thanks 👍
Anyone else remember when Ms. Isley first appeared in the sixties or seventies? Or in the newspaper strip in the same era? Sigh! But no. According to some critics, having one femme fatale, being a romantic interest in the Batman universe is enough. That being Ms. Kyle. To be honest, (and I prefer the sixties) all the femme fatales should be fighting over the Darknight Detective. Great days.
Well, at least this _should_ put an end to Lesbian Ivy, for a while. That's one good thing to come out of this dumb decision... unless, of course, it's instantly undone (which it probably will be). I _really wish_ they'd stop turning villains "good" just because they're gay or otherwise _"diverse."_
I've just started buying this title for the beautiful Cho covers to display on my future comic wall. I'm not interested in what's inside.
Harley Quinn, Killer Frost, Ravenger, Catwoman, and now Poison Ivy. WTF is up with all these villains being turned into heroes?
The third Killer Frost is less evil than the previous ones so she become a hero make sense to me.
I think you mean Ravager/Rose Wilson? She originally joined the Titans in the 90s and Geoff Johns made her Deathstroke Girl Villain for his Teen Titans and later set her up to be a hero again. Since then she skirted the line with mostly leaning on anti-hero much like Catwoman has for years already.
Again?
“…she began to see the benefits of human life rather than just the negatives.” This was already done in Batman: No Man’s Land when she cared for some children who had been orphaned. I guess you could shrug that off as “Well, that was before the universe got reset again” but that doesn’t change the fact that writers today keep thinking their stories have never been done before when they have.
It’s stuff like this that makes me regret trying to get back into comics by buying omnibus’ and going through my dad’s old comics collection (being a vet and patriot, of course it’s almost all Captain America with the occasional Doctor Strange).
What I hate is how everyone treats being good as easy by claiming stuff like “Don’t be an asshole/why do holy books take thousands of pages to say Don’t be an asshole/judgemental etc”. If they’d bother to study history and read various faiths holy books, they’d see being good is insanely hard and evil easy. If DC would go back to making superheroes, ya know, HEROES, and super villains back to straight up villains, it’d be refreshing, especially as a study of how easy it is to fall and how hard it is to plant yourself like a root and tell a crooked world “No, you move.”
I think everyone should have the chance to turn things around and not killing Batman villains in particular is kind of a "rule," since the idea of redemption is the entire reason Batman doesn't kill them. That said, Harley and Ivy are never treated badly by the writers and no amount of abuse changes the fact that they did what they did...Quite vindictively too. Also, a Harley redemption theoretically works because she only went into crime for the love of one person; if she were to cut him from her life, she'd have no reason to continue being evil. Ivy, on the other hand, is a crusader who would consider anything less than eco-terrorism to be irresponsible and letting evil people win. Harley's tragedy originally worked because you knew she could have been a good person if she lost a bad influence; Ivy's tragedy works because no matter how many good traits she has, she'll always have values that make it impossible for her live in society, so redemption stories just don't fit her.
Also, just because sympathetic and nuanced villains are cool doesn't mean they all have to be like that. Joker, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom, Onomatopoeia (I would have said Deadshot, but they've been trying to make him sympathetic lately too), Shocker, all good villains because they're just a-holes and remind you that being a superhero is friggin' dangerous.
Alfred still dead.....
I miss Alfred 😞.
Hope that when they resurrect her, they don't make her the version from the Suicide Squad Kill the Justice League game. She's a little girl for some reason and when you gain her favor, she dispenses ice-based powers to the team. Yes, you read that right, ice-based powers.
Everybody is a hero now. 😂 The writers at DC are so dumb. They are completely boring as heroes. Let them be villains.
How to ruin a good character DC style.
I remember reading a Paul Dini Detective comics story, and if i remember correctly she tried to seduce teenager Tim Drake (before he was gay) so she can murder him . . . Thats evil! Also, im pretty sure she was feeding men to plants again in that issue.
😮 the thing is maybe we get new version of the character like the punisher......
She is dead again?
I consider ones like magneto more as 'neutrals' who 'could' be heroes if they kept at it. cuz i mean if you say ivy and magneto can never be heroes, then under the same vein you can't say gambit or wolverine could ever be heroes, because they kill even presently. remember gambit killing all those thieves and assassins in his story? or wolverine killing anyone? so no, i do think based on comic lore that ones like ivy and magneto can be heroes. but they'd need to keep with it storywise and they have a lot of dificulty doing that which is the real problem.
they've kept at it with venom which is why people accept him as a hero now, but with ones like magneto they haven't cuz they keep having him flip back and forth probably cuz they have difficulty of thinking of villains that could replace him or challenge him. same will likely happen with ivy is what i'm betting, "if" comics last that long
In general, I'm not a fan of transforming a villain into a hero.
I miss Venom being a straight, villainous murderer.
I'm OK with a redemption arc on an unpopular character. Maybe an attempt to get more fans.
But if they're already popular as a villain, why change it.
Strangely, I'm OK with a hero becoming a villain. Not sure why.
What if this an excuse for her to turn into little girl Ivy like in the suicide sqaud game?
You're missing the point. Men Bad. Women Good. And if women bad, then it's because of men so they shouldn't be held accountable.
Accountability is women's kryptonite.
Having women as villains is problematic and feeds the patriarchy…. Translation: “we are feeding the agenda because giving excuses to being bad, selfish and not having morals is way easier than doing what’s right by others.”
The only good redemption Arc is Zuko from Avatar The Last Airbender.
So she becomes a hero by murdering the villain? That’s not much more heroic than she had been previously right? She’ll always be a murderer, that’s not something most people can forget.
Stop giving Marvel and DC money.
Are you telling me the Arkham rehabilitation program is finally working? Lololol…. (No)
We all know the what. Look into the why
Look I'm fine with them becoming Heroes as long as it's done properly. This is NOT doing it properly. I like redemption. The whole point of redemption is that people can come back from anything no matter how terrible they've been. Thats a good concept. Having some villains become Heroes or pick different paths in life should be the norm because comics is a constant ongoing story and the same characters can't all remain villains for the next 100 years. They can't keep getting their asses kicked as the villains over and over otherwise people will question why the hell they're still doing this. They HAVE to move on and do something else. They have to evolve. But it seems like NO ONE at DC is interested in giving them an actual redemption arc. They keep trying to speed run it and take short cuts. Real redemption requires introspection. It requires a person taking a real look at themselves in the mirror and looking at all of their flaws and mistakes and realizing that they were wrong. Then going above and beyond to make up for it whether anyone agrees with them or not. DC just seems utterly incapable of this for some reason. Most likely because writing an actual redemption would require these writers to actually look at themselves and admit fault in their own lives. And they can't do that.
When she coming back?
Well....while your statement regarding villainous characters not being able to come back from certain heinous acts is 100% true in principal, this is comics. With all the retconning and memory-holing that goes on in this medium, how many of those past crimes are even still part of continuty?
Wait she’s dead?
Did you watch xmen 97? It was fun but rushed.
Doesn't matter. The character is worthless now, anyway.
The comics of today reflect with their protagonists the villainy and self interest any honest person can see in our so called leaders. The current poison ivy arc is a representation of gain of function research and its aftermath and an attempt to justify it to the plebs.