A former special ops guy was talking about how Afghans could minimize, in some cases almost eliminate, their thermal signature. Apparently, thick sheep skin was really effective, at least in the day time. Now, I've searched TH-cam for a video on this subject; however, none exist. I'd love to see someone put it to the test.
I contacted HelikonTex about this a while ago, this is what they replied: Hello, thank you for contacting us. Wildwood is not NIR compliant. It depends on colors, at the moment NIR Compliant are items : -Multicam - PenCott GreenZone - PenCott Badlads - PenCott SandStorm - all A-Tacs
Fun fact..My battle buddy and I found out back in the late 90s that our ghillie suits would show up much darker if we scanned for each other using an old vhs-c camcorder.. It was wild to see a dark spot through the camera where the ghillie blended perfectly to the naked eye..
I've been doing infrared portrait photography for about 7 years now. I've found, more than anything, the actual fabric determines how it's going to look in the images I create. I've photographed outfits that look the same in visible light, but under IR photography look exactly the same. Conversely, items that look different in visible will match in IR. Within non-military fabrics and dyes, very few dyes/patterns show up, but instead blend into one another. So, for the military poncho, my belief is that it's the nylon or polyester that is reflecting like a big highway sign. What's really going to be interesting is if you do this same test with various LBE, plate carriers, chest rigs, etc. I haven't photographed it yet (and this video really makes me look at doing it now), but I suspect that old ALICE gear will light up, and 1956 LBE may not (I have an ALICE belt/pouch setup with a '56 H-harness). Thanks for putting this together.
Good comment. I've photographed a ton of different camos and gear under NV, and the same camo printed on different materials will absolutely look different on NIR (sometimes).
Very interesting! As a hunter I'd also like to see similar test for hunting cloths only on the other specter of light, the ultra violet. They've made much research and they say that reindeer and caribou does also see the ultra violet light. This is how they can spot a wolf in its winter coat pretty easily against the white snow. I suspect that many hunters "light" up for the reindeer with their camouflage. Usually the camouflage is sold to hunter to how us human perceives it and not how animals will perceive it. Considering deer doesn't see red and the perceive it as green I think also these to some degree sees ultra violet. If you think of colors on a scale from ultraviolet - blue - green - red - infrared, then they only moved what color they see only to the left. I guess it's a little outside what you normally do but I'd find it interesting atleast. And I don't think there's been done much testing of cloths in this area when it comes to hunting cloths. Maybe you'll find Infrared Reflective Camouflage has the same properties for Ultraviolet light?
Absolutely, hunting camouflage is very interesting and we hope to talk more about that in the future as well. You're right, wildlife sees different parts of the EM spectrum, which is why the market for effective hunting camouflage is very lucrative. Millions of dollars has been spent to develop the most efficient camouflage in that regard. However, the lack of industry-wide standardization, and a million different proprietary dyes, fabrics, and patterns means that there's a lot more to it than just tactical camouflage. There is a lot of overlap, but in short both communities are interested in different things. Will be great to examine hunting camo as we continue to explore this topic 👍
As a successful bowhunter, I can highly recommend ATSKO UV-Killer and Sport Wash!!! I use NaturalGear exclusively, vertical nonpattern, no shadows... got a ten by ten elk at 35 yards in New Mexico, So it works! ( he could hear my heart beating through my open mouth from 50 yards away, looked right at me four times, but didn't see anything...)
Yes, deer can see uv. Especially make shure that your hat or jacket does not reflect uv. Most of the time it is a cheap hat that gives you away. Or quick disconnect buckles on your web gear. This will make you look like a light bulb in the tree.
Good to see you making content again S2 team. Thanks for the comprehensive and exhausting effort you put forth for everything you produce. There's a level of clarity and professionalism that I just don't see in any other channels. Stay safe in the shade friends. 🤘
I'm amazed that I spent nearly 20 years in the army, and deployed overseas 3 times; and this was NEVER talked about. We had to exchange some kit for IRR treated versions. We were told it was sprayed with a special IRR coating that washed out after a few washes. Not once was specific detergent mentioned. I love this video, I always wondered about IRR. 😂
yeah i never thought about how detergents affect the ir capabilities of gear, luckily i only have one uniform i regularly abuse, so if push comes to shove ill just switch to a different uniform
I use baking soda and small amount of vinegar to do my laundry. No dyes, brighteners, or scents. Clothes smell fresher and get just as clean and I’d bet it would also work well for removing brighteners. It definitely works well for my hunting clothes. I don’t even use fancy camo patterns most of the time, just dull colors and something to break up my silhouette. Way back in ‘80s - ‘90s I noticed new synthetic camo patterns that were starting to become popular seemed to no more effective than plain organic fibers with no pattern and at dusk or dawn when UV is more dominant vs visible light than daytime I even noticed a difference in fabric brightness in ambient light with just my own eyes. I’m sure it was due to colors, fabrics, dyes, brighteners causing some type of glow. Not surprising that under IRR these patterns are often terrible as well.
My other go-to's are borax and washing soda. A little dirt or even water will be dark under the IR illuminator. Water has the highest IR absorption of any common substance. Tossing a touch of black carbon/charcoal for a fish filter or air filter in the wash will take most of the brighteners out fast. It also adds a dullness and darkness to the fabric that seems to work under UV/Vis/IR.
S2, you hit it out of the park once again. I know this content takes an enormous amount of time to produce, but these are the things about which no one else is talking. God bless y'all, and stay safe.
the abilities and equipment of your enemy is what decides what you need. Alas they dont tell us who our next enemy will be, and they dont tell us what they have. So we need equipment to counter every possibility - that is extremely expensive, and even then they might have something we cant counter. So we can only do the best we can in every situation, and constantly adapt.
I've seen Krylon camo spray paints used to make gear seemingly IRR compliant, would be interesting to see how varying amounts and brands applied to non-compliant gear turns out. Also would be interesting to see how bug repellant sprays interact with IR.
I was about to leave the same comment. Even beyond spray painting clothes, I'd like to know how reflect it is due to rifles, magazines, holsters, etc being spray camo'd.
I use spray paint. Krylon camo paint, even in a light dusting (dust stripes or a pattern) can help a ton for cheaper gear, rain stuff, or covers. If you apply it light enough, you won't notice in the day, but it can make such a difference if you don't care about a little bit of paint on your gear. You can also get UV spray for for clothing.
Is there a way to test if UV spray works? I have been thinking about buying it, but for all I know it may be compressed air for a placebo effect on the buyer
As always, great Intel. And yes, going thru all my gear now. Remember when the Marines got the digis with the IR EGA in them. I wonder if that has changed since then. Thank you S2. 👊 😎👍
Excellent topic and demonstrations!!! I'll add that it seems that Woolite Dark (or "all darks") detergent doesn't have optical brighteners (as they claim), seems like one of the better brands for military/ camo uniforms and may even help with isolating darker colors in non-IRR Compliant dyes to some minute benefit. Fabric type definitely seems to be a contributor alongside type of Dye used, Cotton- Poly blends seem to be darker than straight Polyester Ripstop (likely due to Poly being synthetic and Cotton blends being a bit more organic though Cotton is still bleached and treated before any dyeing). I'd also like to see how some rattle-can paints (like Rustoleum Outdoor Matte Camo colors) work under IR lights, maybe that's a part 2 you could expand on?
One thing to be aware of, there are spray paints that has IR non-reflective properties. Hunting soap available at Walmart and other retailers has no brighteners.
I hope folks aren’t hearing this as “use your IR illuminator like a searchlight.” Assuming that only your side has night vision is a dangerous way to approach it. You turn on that lamp, and the badguy is watching from a distance through a NOD, you just lost whatever element of surprise that you might have had.
It’d be interesting to test a bunch of 5.11 gear, they’re a very popular brand and offer tactical camo garments for a bunch of different environments. I know most of my buddies (myself included) use 5.11 for range larping and drills so it’d be interesting to know just how good the more budget friendly option performs.
I remember watching an episode of a reality show some time between 2009-2010 where this guy was evading a specialised team of South Korean police that were tasked with capturing him for the sake of the show. There was a scene where he was walking through the forest at night wearing a 5.11 Rush pack (may have been black). The camera had a NV optic on it and the nylon material of the 5.11 Rush didn't stand out too much but the rows of MOLLE/PALS webbing were fairly reflective.
Go to a Finnish vendor like Varusteleka and you'll find that practically all their tactical garments are advertised as NIR compliant. Certain militaries have presumed the likely enemy (read: Russia) to have NV capabilities pretty much since the technology has existed. When the local businesses then use the same mil-spec fabrics, and sell products to a customer base that is likely to be aware of the issue, the results should be good to go. I would imagine this applies for many of the other reputable European manufactures too. You rarely see optical brighteners brought up in this context, it was good to have such clear examples of the issue.
Awesome video! Reminds me of when I was active duty and guys would starch and iron their BDU's so they'd be 'inspection ready" with sharp creases. The starch crystals would make them reflect like they were covered in glitter! I can only imagine what they'd look like in IR...
This is an area I can speak to, I used to teach this. Lots of things to pass on here. My knowledge is over 30 years old but physics hasn't changed so it's still relevant. First off there are 2 different types of IR vision out there. Your AN/PVSxx is a starlight (passive) system, they work on amplifying available *reflected* light. They work great when you have a moon and they suck when you're moonless or overcast unless you have another light source (IR interrogator). This is the more cheaper side of NVS and thus the more common. The other side of the NVS realm is active IR systems, they see IR emissions. You find this sort of kit on aviation, tanks, vehicles and some man portable weapon systems. They see heat. Think high end FLIR, heat seeking missiles, serious NASA or spy stuff. Very expensive, usually 10x the cost of a passive system and they typically require a cold source. To illustrate the difference I can say we tried to fake murder a herd of cattle near the DMZ in S. Korea. It was a night op, we were looking for tanks, we were using starlight scopes and we could see a bright camo pattern in the target area. We called in AT units to deal with it. They pulled up the area in their active system and you could clearly see they were cow shaped. Like night and day. The black, brown and white patches on the cattle reflected different amounts of IR but the cow as a whole was hotter than it's surroundings. Not a tank. When you brought up the poncho liner my ears went up. A poncho liner is meant to be worn under a poncho, it's main IR functionality is to keep heat in, it's meant to defeat active systems, where the poncho shell is meant more to defeat passive systems. The shell is far less reflective but does almost nothing to restrict IR emissions. Thus the liner. When you brought up the garment with IRR compliance that glows I instantly knew the answer. My advice 30 years ago was this, If your going to the field or to combat take your garrison utilities and throw them into the back of your wall locker. March down to cash sales and buy all new sets, wash them 3 times in cold water and any time you have to remove dirt or grime rely on ivory soap and cold water. That is the best way to extend the IR protection on those garments. The utilities normally worn in garrison are washed in Tide and heavily starched with liquid starch so you can look nice and get those creases. Absolutely destroys the IR protections of the garment and makes you one great big glowing target to starlight scopes, it doesn't really affect the active IR though so you might catch a bullet but not a missile. My 2 cents, actual worth may vary.
Manufacturers apply mold-release to every new garment. This is why you should wash everything before you wear it. I don't know if the mold release makes a difference in making the fabric glow in something brand new out of the package, but I suspect it might. I'm very appreciative that you showed me that particular laundry detergent. I use it and didn't know they were guilty of false advertising. My skin is very sensitive and this may explain some weird break-outs I'm experiencing.
@@TTG566 I know a guy who sells booster seats, booster rockets and boosts cars. I don’t know a thing about booster shots. That’s for dogs, bro. It takes a b***h to know about booster shots.
@@tacticalmattfoley no but the boostaees WILL light up like a Christmas tree under U Vee see spectrums due to now production of Gamma Omega in blood and Delta Nancy Alpha Predators. Aim for neck when Dealling with Turkey's it severs cerebral cortex at spine center..no Brain function anyways... Soft tissue paper instead of can on head Predators will not go down under normal conditions of Aim....
Tysvm for this treasure trove of knowledge. I have a ghosthood and swagman and you answered my questions about effectiveness on top without me having to type a comment. Spot on as always gentlemen.
The Company ATSKO offers U-V-Killer & Sport-Wash Combo. Sport wash takes out the scent , brighteners, etc. AND the U-V killer stops the GLOW in your clothes !!! I wash ALL my BDU'S with this product !!!
Awesome video, as per usual. Your knowledge bombs are always welcomed. Would be curious to know what materials absorb the most light, in my opinion any reflection is not ideal.
If you are using the Sionyx Illuminator it is 940nm. That is above the ideal wavelength for the pvs-14 as it didn’t appear to brighten the view any for the Pvs-14. A better test would be to use a milspec frequency not exceeding 870nm.
IR light sources above 900nm may even "bleed" some red light. That is why some powerful IR iluminators have a "red glowing dot" when you directly look at it
I'm extremely curious about the rain gear and *layering* - like, can I throw a Concamo ghost hood over a traditional tarp and negate the reflectiveness of the tarp because of the IRR compliance of the Concamo
@@VictorGarciaR veils aren't issued. Theyre generally just burlap or mesh, and with snipers just like the rest of their ghillie suit are made by the sniper themselves. The IRR part comes from the dyes of the material used, and as S2U pointed out - not being improperly washed, so a surplus store is likely a no-go
I am now very curious about the use of water proofing sprays on some of these garments. Have you tested any of these to see if they affect IRR? If the detergent affects them like that I am curious how they would hold up.
Dam man where the hell y'all been been missing those Intel updates. I hate how censorship has literally been allowed to reduce the amount of authentic content. Guys I really wish y'all and everyone else would buck this bullshit ass system and say screw it
Amazing stuff that no one else really talks about...will be testing all my camo gear and for sure...no optical brightener detergents! Very useful and perhaps life saving info. I predict that no cheap Chinese-amazon stuff will pass the test..lol. Thanks for your exhaustive review.
I understand that if I have a non-IRR compliant dyed garment it will glow under an illuminator but how far out is that illuminator reaching? I know the IR lights I have only go so far, just like a normal flashlight, maybe military has brighter/further reaching lights? Or is the issue more if an enemy uses a PEQ-15 or similar device to "scan" an area it will light non-IRR clothes up when shined on?
Detergents made for hunting cloths will generally not have color enhancers or perfumes. Tying to fool the sharp eyes of whitetail deer has lead to many innovative ways to reduce standing out since they can see multiple objects in focus at different distances all at the same time unlike us humans and their eyes are specially receptive to anything in the blue green spectrums. Another thing is over washing clothes, unless they got wet, muddy, sweaty or really dirty don't wash them. This will aid in knocking down reflectivity and other issues with being seen when you don't want to be. I wash my hunting cloths at the end of the season then pack them away in totes unless it's a really hot season like it can be here in Texas then I might wash them one time in between. This also helps with modern flir systems, thermals are a whole different subject but those of us in the Texas hill country don't worry about thermal signatures much since the granite here radiates so much heat that you can't use it to pick out people from rocks except on those few days a year where it's down below freezing for more than a couple days in a row. Search and rescue doesn't use thermals out here because of that.
My hunting clothes have been washed in YEARS. 🤣 Hunting season is cold here so sweat isn't really an issue for me. I keep them in a tote with a bunch of leaves and dirt in the bottom and store it in the garage.
I remember reading a survival book series where the author explained this but couldn’t go into great detail like you have because he would have to of written a hole book in of itself about the subject. Think you for this information
I had wondered about IR qualities. Washing detergents blew my mind. Hunting we avoid them for scents. Stories from Vietnam of aftershave smells traveling Always play "the red team role" Thank you and keep up the good and important work. Hope this helps save American lives.
Thank you it's been a while since we've gone back to the basics. Simple stuff like this speaks volumes. Excellent video! excellent topic! I appreciate this this information it will serve me well.
Pretty pleased to see this. A lot of airsoft stuff is indeed NOT IRR compliant . We could see the glowies in our IR illuminated indoor airsoft field, and you could tell who was running with actual or surplus gear, and who had knockoffs. One big question... this optical brightener thing - what about it being double or triple rinsed? You have me curious what the after effects of it would be... may have to play with some samples.
It would be great if you could try washing the multicam garment with Atsko Sports Wash. It is claimed to wash out optical brighteners. And they also have a UV blocker that you spray on and let dry. It would be great to test that too.
@@Centermass762 Why would you assume supply knows anything about tactical considerations and IRR compatibility? Sounds like a good way to get killed IMHO.
@@derekd1510 what the hell does supply have to do with anything? The Army has been using factory-treated, permethrin impregnated uniforms for 30 years. Have you ever looked at any new, unwashed issued uniform through NVGs since permethrin became mandatory (other than maternity ACU) in 2012? Did it reflect IR? There's your answer.
On the liners. Could it be a function of retaining warmth? The fabric used might be picked because it reflects "heat" to make it warmer. I'm ignorant on the subject.
Glad to see you back. This is interesting subject. I have heard that many civilian hunting clothes are IRR. The reason for this is Deer and many other animals can see in that spectrum. Anyway to be able to test things while in the store?
What do dead leaves on a forest ground look like, when viewed with current night vision devices? Unfortunately I have no access to such devices and have been wondering about that. As a hobby I make 3d camouflage ponchos and capes and dye my own cotton. It looks great to the naked eye but almost white in NIR. I had an acquaintance take a photo for me. However he rarely goes in the woods.
I highly recommend the ruck and helmet/boonie camo net covers made by Ope Gear Co. They were specifically designed because other contemporary options all performed very badly in the IR spectrum. Lots of color options available, top notch customer service, all products made in USA.
nice video, awesome to bring attention to this topic, however i think it would have been much better if you were able to have shown the IR parts while actually outside with a grass/ foliage background just so we can see how much more reflective it is compared to actual foliage. In this video with the metal work bench its kind of hard to gauge how much shine is coming from the fabric compared to just being close to the light source.
Starch will light it up, too. I was in the Army during the BDU days, and we were expected to have our uniform both crisply starched to look good, and also unstarched for IRR compatibility at the same time. Don't ask how, just do it....
He trashes it bc of the latency, framerate and its low light performance. Works ok if theres a ton of ambient light, or in this case, a ton of ir illumination
17:00 thank you for the info. I buy cheap detergent and it has that same ingredient, as well as some other brighteners. Do the brighteners eventually wash out over time?
Nice video. Back in my time as a platoon commander I did a test with night vision on issued gear vs commercial gear. Arktis did great, but a lot of other stuff was bright white or blacked out under NVGs. However an issued chestrig turned out to be non IRR compliant, wich was a surprize.
One of the guys in one of the night vision swap Facebook groups did a full set of experiments with different detergents with different optical brighteners. The conclusion: optical brighteners do nothing under IR, but fluoresce in visible when illuminated with UV. I think the multicam issue is more likely counterfeit fabric.
Is Gain still free of optical brighteners? When ACUs first came out we were all told to not use most detergents. But years later it seems the whole army forgot to care. And good luck knowing what they washed your stuff with in theater.
One would simply have to check the ingredients on the back label but I am going to make an educated guess and say most Gain detergent that you will find will have optical brightener and fabric softener in it. Most units I was with didn't care what you washed your uniform with because they inevitably give you new uniforms every time you deploy.
I appreciate the test. I would also appreciate more testing on that multicam issue versus optical brighteners. I don't know if you did thorough enough testing looking at different criteria. Just because piece of fabric says official multicam on it all that is saying is that the pattern and colors are multicam. It doesn't say anything about the fabric that was used or if the dye is IR compliant. Take one of the items that performed well and wash it with optical brighteners and see if it makes a difference.
I've been researching this a ton ever since I started collecting IRR items to keep me concealed in my local environment (Northern Central US). With lots of IR NODs on the market today, and being standard issue for just about every ground troop in the US, it's a good idea to take IR absorption into account.
I'm very glad you swerved away from the bottomless pit that is WW3 today and got back to the basics of Personal Equipment, so that when the Front opens up here, we can make better choices. Also, thanks for the 5th Gen program, which basically is Cold War Domestic Propaganda on Fluoxitine. I love the compilation of Every Single Media Commenter saying in identical cadance, "This is Dangerous for Our Democracy!"
A detergent test to identify the best detergents for washing IRR compliant clothes would be awesome. Im also curious how much of an effect residue from previous washes would have. Like how many wash cycles itd take to get rid of optical brighteners from your washer drum.
One of the Facebook NV swap groups had a guy do a test. They didn't do anything under IR, but they did fluoresce under UV. With multispectral imaging growing, its still a serius issue.
More of this kind of content S2. Real world practical SHTF stuff.
That's what most of their stuff is already.
A former special ops guy was talking about how Afghans could minimize, in some cases almost eliminate, their thermal signature. Apparently, thick sheep skin was really effective, at least in the day time. Now, I've searched TH-cam for a video on this subject; however, none exist. I'd love to see someone put it to the test.
The L button is your best friend, skips ahead ten seconds, this video really DRAGS without it.
It’s about to hit here
I contacted HelikonTex about this a while ago, this is what they replied:
Hello, thank you for contacting us.
Wildwood is not NIR compliant. It depends on colors, at the moment NIR Compliant are items :
-Multicam
- PenCott GreenZone
- PenCott Badlads
- PenCott SandStorm
- all A-Tacs
good to know
Very interesting. Thank you for that info.
Fun fact..My battle buddy and I found out back in the late 90s that our ghillie suits would show up much darker if we scanned for each other using an old vhs-c camcorder.. It was wild to see a dark spot through the camera where the ghillie blended perfectly to the naked eye..
Removing the IR filter on a camera is the first thing I ever do when I get a new camera tbh. Makes it far more multi spectrum.
That means your suits were compliant
I've been doing infrared portrait photography for about 7 years now. I've found, more than anything, the actual fabric determines how it's going to look in the images I create. I've photographed outfits that look the same in visible light, but under IR photography look exactly the same. Conversely, items that look different in visible will match in IR. Within non-military fabrics and dyes, very few dyes/patterns show up, but instead blend into one another.
So, for the military poncho, my belief is that it's the nylon or polyester that is reflecting like a big highway sign.
What's really going to be interesting is if you do this same test with various LBE, plate carriers, chest rigs, etc. I haven't photographed it yet (and this video really makes me look at doing it now), but I suspect that old ALICE gear will light up, and 1956 LBE may not (I have an ALICE belt/pouch setup with a '56 H-harness).
Thanks for putting this together.
Testing load bearing and protective gear would really be interesting
I have a very similar setup in terms of ALICE LBE so I’m pretty curious what the results would be.
This would be awesome to learn! Could you please tag me if you do end up testing this?
Good comment. I've photographed a ton of different camos and gear under NV, and the same camo printed on different materials will absolutely look different on NIR (sometimes).
Very interesting! As a hunter I'd also like to see similar test for hunting cloths only on the other specter of light, the ultra violet. They've made much research and they say that reindeer and caribou does also see the ultra violet light. This is how they can spot a wolf in its winter coat pretty easily against the white snow. I suspect that many hunters "light" up for the reindeer with their camouflage. Usually the camouflage is sold to hunter to how us human perceives it and not how animals will perceive it. Considering deer doesn't see red and the perceive it as green I think also these to some degree sees ultra violet. If you think of colors on a scale from ultraviolet - blue - green - red - infrared, then they only moved what color they see only to the left. I guess it's a little outside what you normally do but I'd find it interesting atleast. And I don't think there's been done much testing of cloths in this area when it comes to hunting cloths. Maybe you'll find Infrared Reflective Camouflage has the same properties for Ultraviolet light?
Absolutely, hunting camouflage is very interesting and we hope to talk more about that in the future as well. You're right, wildlife sees different parts of the EM spectrum, which is why the market for effective hunting camouflage is very lucrative. Millions of dollars has been spent to develop the most efficient camouflage in that regard. However, the lack of industry-wide standardization, and a million different proprietary dyes, fabrics, and patterns means that there's a lot more to it than just tactical camouflage. There is a lot of overlap, but in short both communities are interested in different things. Will be great to examine hunting camo as we continue to explore this topic 👍
Is it true that animals can't see green light?
As a successful bowhunter, I can highly recommend ATSKO UV-Killer and Sport Wash!!! I use NaturalGear exclusively, vertical nonpattern, no shadows... got a ten by ten elk at 35 yards in New Mexico, So it works! ( he could hear my heart beating through my open mouth from 50 yards away, looked right at me four times, but didn't see anything...)
Ohh like kuiu
Yes, deer can see uv. Especially make shure that your hat or jacket does not reflect uv. Most of the time it is a cheap hat that gives you away. Or quick disconnect buckles on your web gear. This will make you look like a light bulb in the tree.
Good to see you making content again S2 team. Thanks for the comprehensive and exhausting effort you put forth for everything you produce. There's a level of clarity and professionalism that I just don't see in any other channels.
Stay safe in the shade friends. 🤘
This is a old vid just uploaded again
I'm amazed that I spent nearly 20 years in the army, and deployed overseas 3 times; and this was NEVER talked about. We had to exchange some kit for IRR treated versions. We were told it was sprayed with a special IRR coating that washed out after a few washes. Not once was specific detergent mentioned. I love this video, I always wondered about IRR. 😂
I just tested all my camies with my PVS-14. They are ruined. Mind = blown! 🤯
yeah i never thought about how detergents affect the ir capabilities of gear, luckily i only have one uniform i regularly abuse, so if push comes to shove ill just switch to a different uniform
My brothers MARPAT simply stated to not use detergents with optical deyes.
@@jed-henrywitkowski6470 the army OCP uniform does not
@@danscott8899 throw them in the wash with some vinegar and see if it helps any
I use baking soda and small amount of vinegar to do my laundry. No dyes, brighteners, or scents. Clothes smell fresher and get just as clean and I’d bet it would also work well for removing brighteners. It definitely works well for my hunting clothes. I don’t even use fancy camo patterns most of the time, just dull colors and something to break up my silhouette.
Way back in ‘80s - ‘90s I noticed new synthetic camo patterns that were starting to become popular seemed to no more effective than plain organic fibers with no pattern and at dusk or dawn when UV is more dominant vs visible light than daytime I even noticed a difference in fabric brightness in ambient light with just my own eyes. I’m sure it was due to colors, fabrics, dyes, brighteners causing some type of glow. Not surprising that under IRR these patterns are often terrible as well.
My other go-to's are borax and washing soda. A little dirt or even water will be dark under the IR illuminator. Water has the highest IR absorption of any common substance. Tossing a touch of black carbon/charcoal for a fish filter or air filter in the wash will take most of the brighteners out fast. It also adds a dullness and darkness to the fabric that seems to work under UV/Vis/IR.
S2, you hit it out of the park once again. I know this content takes an enormous amount of time to produce, but these are the things about which no one else is talking. God bless y'all, and stay safe.
the abilities and equipment of your enemy is what decides what you need. Alas they dont tell us who our next enemy will be, and they dont tell us what they have. So we need equipment to counter every possibility - that is extremely expensive, and even then they might have something we cant counter. So we can only do the best we can in every situation, and constantly adapt.
Semper Gumby = Always Flexible
Quadcopter 9mm drones. You'll never see them coming
I've seen Krylon camo spray paints used to make gear seemingly IRR compliant, would be interesting to see how varying amounts and brands applied to non-compliant gear turns out.
Also would be interesting to see how bug repellant sprays interact with IR.
Would love to see a similar video but for different camo spray paints. Rust-Oleum, Krylon , etc... I personally prefer painting kit rather than dying.
I was about to leave the same comment. Even beyond spray painting clothes, I'd like to know how reflect it is due to rifles, magazines, holsters, etc being spray camo'd.
Majority of spray paints are oil based. There's a reason why cerakote exists
@@RonnieRawdawg krylon is acrylic, 100% plastic. Then you have latex house paint, polyurethane 2k.
But most rattle cans are enamel oil based
@@janeblogs324 not all krylon is arclyic majority is oil based.
I'm so happy to see you fighting to protect our planet. This is such a great place to get an education.
I use spray paint. Krylon camo paint, even in a light dusting (dust stripes or a pattern) can help a ton for cheaper gear, rain stuff, or covers. If you apply it light enough, you won't notice in the day, but it can make such a difference if you don't care about a little bit of paint on your gear. You can also get UV spray for for clothing.
Is there a way to test if UV spray works? I have been thinking about buying it, but for all I know it may be compressed air for a placebo effect on the buyer
@@VictorGarciaR it only works for 4-legged foe... Ask the deer?
hmmmm....what if you used a uv resistant clear coat? keep your camo color, but block ir reflectivity?
As always, great Intel. And yes, going thru all my gear now. Remember when the Marines got the digis with the IR EGA in them. I wonder if that has changed since then. Thank you S2. 👊 😎👍
Excellent topic and demonstrations!!!
I'll add that it seems that Woolite Dark (or "all darks") detergent doesn't have optical brighteners (as they claim), seems like one of the better brands for military/ camo uniforms and may even help with isolating darker colors in non-IRR Compliant dyes to some minute benefit.
Fabric type definitely seems to be a contributor alongside type of Dye used, Cotton- Poly blends seem to be darker than straight Polyester Ripstop (likely due to Poly being synthetic and Cotton blends being a bit more organic though Cotton is still bleached and treated before any dyeing).
I'd also like to see how some rattle-can paints (like Rustoleum Outdoor Matte Camo colors) work under IR lights, maybe that's a part 2 you could expand on?
+1 on this.
@@josie4065 👍
One thing to be aware of, there are spray paints that has IR non-reflective properties.
Hunting soap available at Walmart and other retailers has no brighteners.
I wonder if some of those IR Non reflective paints can be used for a rifle...
@@NinjaofApathy yes.
@@graynotescartridgebox do you happen to know if those paints have any special designated to look them up specifically?
I love your channel bro, you always cover the "boring" topics that no one else will talk about.
I hope folks aren’t hearing this as “use your IR illuminator like a searchlight.”
Assuming that only your side has night vision is a dangerous way to approach it. You turn on that lamp, and the badguy is watching from a distance through a NOD, you just lost whatever element of surprise that you might have had.
It’d be interesting to test a bunch of 5.11 gear, they’re a very popular brand and offer tactical camo garments for a bunch of different environments. I know most of my buddies (myself included) use 5.11 for range larping and drills so it’d be interesting to know just how good the more budget friendly option performs.
I remember watching an episode of a reality show some time between 2009-2010 where this guy was evading a specialised team of South Korean police that were tasked with capturing him for the sake of the show. There was a scene where he was walking through the forest at night wearing a 5.11 Rush pack (may have been black). The camera had a NV optic on it and the nylon material of the 5.11 Rush didn't stand out too much but the rows of MOLLE/PALS webbing were fairly reflective.
'Glowing like a federal agent in an online chat room' 😂🤣🤣
Go to a Finnish vendor like Varusteleka and you'll find that practically all their tactical garments are advertised as NIR compliant. Certain militaries have presumed the likely enemy (read: Russia) to have NV capabilities pretty much since the technology has existed. When the local businesses then use the same mil-spec fabrics, and sell products to a customer base that is likely to be aware of the issue, the results should be good to go.
I would imagine this applies for many of the other reputable European manufactures too.
You rarely see optical brighteners brought up in this context, it was good to have such clear examples of the issue.
02/10/2023 Hello S2. Great video. This view is stable and not shaking. Great info. Sincerely Don
Thanks for taking the time to do this. It was excellent
Nice! Nice! There's a peace that I feel when I learn these things .Thank-you. I like this stuff
Subscribed after the first 2 minutes. Hope to see more content like this sooner than later.
Awesome video! Reminds me of when I was active duty and guys would starch and iron their BDU's so they'd be 'inspection ready" with sharp creases. The starch crystals would make them reflect like they were covered in glitter! I can only imagine what they'd look like in IR...
This is an area I can speak to, I used to teach this. Lots of things to pass on here. My knowledge is over 30 years old but physics hasn't changed so it's still relevant.
First off there are 2 different types of IR vision out there. Your AN/PVSxx is a starlight (passive) system, they work on amplifying available *reflected* light. They work great when you have a moon and they suck when you're moonless or overcast unless you have another light source (IR interrogator). This is the more cheaper side of NVS and thus the more common. The other side of the NVS realm is active IR systems, they see IR emissions. You find this sort of kit on aviation, tanks, vehicles and some man portable weapon systems. They see heat. Think high end FLIR, heat seeking missiles, serious NASA or spy stuff. Very expensive, usually 10x the cost of a passive system and they typically require a cold source. To illustrate the difference I can say we tried to fake murder a herd of cattle near the DMZ in S. Korea. It was a night op, we were looking for tanks, we were using starlight scopes and we could see a bright camo pattern in the target area. We called in AT units to deal with it. They pulled up the area in their active system and you could clearly see they were cow shaped. Like night and day. The black, brown and white patches on the cattle reflected different amounts of IR but the cow as a whole was hotter than it's surroundings. Not a tank.
When you brought up the poncho liner my ears went up. A poncho liner is meant to be worn under a poncho, it's main IR functionality is to keep heat in, it's meant to defeat active systems, where the poncho shell is meant more to defeat passive systems. The shell is far less reflective but does almost nothing to restrict IR emissions. Thus the liner.
When you brought up the garment with IRR compliance that glows I instantly knew the answer. My advice 30 years ago was this, If your going to the field or to combat take your garrison utilities and throw them into the back of your wall locker. March down to cash sales and buy all new sets, wash them 3 times in cold water and any time you have to remove dirt or grime rely on ivory soap and cold water. That is the best way to extend the IR protection on those garments. The utilities normally worn in garrison are washed in Tide and heavily starched with liquid starch so you can look nice and get those creases. Absolutely destroys the IR protections of the garment and makes you one great big glowing target to starlight scopes, it doesn't really affect the active IR though so you might catch a bullet but not a missile.
My 2 cents, actual worth may vary.
Manufacturers apply mold-release to every new garment. This is why you should wash everything before you wear it. I don't know if the mold release makes a difference in making the fabric glow in something brand new out of the package, but I suspect it might. I'm very appreciative that you showed me that particular laundry detergent. I use it and didn't know they were guilty of false advertising. My skin is very sensitive and this may explain some weird break-outs I'm experiencing.
How many boostahs you get?
@@HomerEscobar1 You need a booster seat to drive your car? I know a guy.
@@TTG566 I know a guy who sells booster seats, booster rockets and boosts cars. I don’t know a thing about booster shots. That’s for dogs, bro. It takes a b***h to know about booster shots.
I was going to ask if the shininess doesn’t wear off??
@@tacticalmattfoley no but the boostaees WILL light up like a Christmas tree under U Vee see spectrums due to now production of Gamma Omega in blood and Delta Nancy Alpha Predators.
Aim for neck when Dealling with Turkey's it severs cerebral cortex at spine center..no Brain function anyways...
Soft tissue paper instead of can on head Predators will not go down under normal conditions of Aim....
I like what your headed toward HOWEVER. Put it out at night in real world environment
Very useful info. Never would have thought to check this.
Missed you guys. Thanks for the cool tips. 👌
Tysvm for this treasure trove of knowledge. I have a ghosthood and swagman and you answered my questions about effectiveness on top without me having to type a comment. Spot on as always gentlemen.
The Company ATSKO offers U-V-Killer & Sport-Wash Combo. Sport wash takes out the scent , brighteners, etc. AND the U-V killer stops the GLOW in your clothes !!! I wash ALL my BDU'S with this product !!!
learning has occurred.
Awesome video, as per usual. Your knowledge bombs are always welcomed. Would be curious to know what materials absorb the most light, in my opinion any reflection is not ideal.
If you are using the Sionyx Illuminator it is 940nm. That is above the ideal wavelength for the pvs-14 as it didn’t appear to brighten the view any for the Pvs-14. A better test would be to use a milspec frequency not exceeding 870nm.
IR light sources above 900nm may even "bleed" some red light. That is why some powerful IR iluminators have a "red glowing dot" when you directly look at it
OK, I’m glad someone explained why the image of the PVS-14 didn’t seem like it changed much when the illuminator for the Aurora came on. Thank you
I'm extremely curious about the rain gear and *layering* - like, can I throw a Concamo ghost hood over a traditional tarp and negate the reflectiveness of the tarp because of the IRR compliance of the Concamo
Maybe just a scrim net / sniper veil ? Way cheaper than concamo, and if they are military surpluss they should be IRR
@@VictorGarciaR veils aren't issued. Theyre generally just burlap or mesh, and with snipers just like the rest of their ghillie suit are made by the sniper themselves. The IRR part comes from the dyes of the material used, and as S2U pointed out - not being improperly washed, so a surplus store is likely a no-go
is there a difference with how fabrics made with wool, cotton, silk vs tencil, rayon, polyester react under such conditions?
I am now very curious about the use of water proofing sprays on some of these garments. Have you tested any of these to see if they affect IRR? If the detergent affects them like that I am curious how they would hold up.
Dam man where the hell y'all been been missing those Intel updates. I hate how censorship has literally been allowed to reduce the amount of authentic content. Guys I really wish y'all and everyone else would buck this bullshit ass system and say screw it
This is one of the most interesting things that I had never heard of! Thank you S2. I appreciate the knowledge transfer
Amazing stuff that no one else really talks about...will be testing all my camo gear and for sure...no optical brightener detergents! Very useful and perhaps life saving info. I predict that no cheap Chinese-amazon stuff will pass the test..lol. Thanks for your exhaustive review.
Very informative. Thanks for your work putting this together. For those out there who like great content support the creators!
I understand that if I have a non-IRR compliant dyed garment it will glow under an illuminator but how far out is that illuminator reaching? I know the IR lights I have only go so far, just like a normal flashlight, maybe military has brighter/further reaching lights? Or is the issue more if an enemy uses a PEQ-15 or similar device to "scan" an area it will light non-IRR clothes up when shined on?
you taught us a great deal in this video...thankyou
Detergents made for hunting cloths will generally not have color enhancers or perfumes. Tying to fool the sharp eyes of whitetail deer has lead to many innovative ways to reduce standing out since they can see multiple objects in focus at different distances all at the same time unlike us humans and their eyes are specially receptive to anything in the blue green spectrums.
Another thing is over washing clothes, unless they got wet, muddy, sweaty or really dirty don't wash them. This will aid in knocking down reflectivity and other issues with being seen when you don't want to be. I wash my hunting cloths at the end of the season then pack them away in totes unless it's a really hot season like it can be here in Texas then I might wash them one time in between.
This also helps with modern flir systems, thermals are a whole different subject but those of us in the Texas hill country don't worry about thermal signatures much since the granite here radiates so much heat that you can't use it to pick out people from rocks except on those few days a year where it's down below freezing for more than a couple days in a row. Search and rescue doesn't use thermals out here because of that.
My hunting clothes have been washed in YEARS. 🤣 Hunting season is cold here so sweat isn't really an issue for me.
I keep them in a tote with a bunch of leaves and dirt in the bottom and store it in the garage.
I remember reading a survival book series where the author explained this but couldn’t go into great detail like you have because he would have to of written a hole book in of itself about the subject. Think you for this information
I had wondered about IR qualities.
Washing detergents blew my mind. Hunting we avoid them for scents. Stories from Vietnam of aftershave smells traveling
Always play "the red team role"
Thank you and keep up the good and important work. Hope this helps save American lives.
This is such a fantastic channel.
Great video. I have used for many many years Sports-Wash on my hunting clothes. It has no scent, bleach or UV Brighteners.
Excellent as always.
Very cool info about something I didn’t know I needed to know. Love that.
Thank you it's been a while since we've gone back to the basics. Simple stuff like this speaks volumes. Excellent video! excellent topic! I appreciate this this information it will serve me well.
Pretty pleased to see this.
A lot of airsoft stuff is indeed NOT IRR compliant . We could see the glowies in our IR illuminated indoor airsoft field, and you could tell who was running with actual or surplus gear, and who had knockoffs.
One big question... this optical brightener thing - what about it being double or triple rinsed? You have me curious what the after effects of it would be... may have to play with some samples.
You can dust your Airsoft gear with stripes of camo paint that kind of matches the equipment and it will help a ton to reduce the IR signature
Yup ph
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL.
Nice one. Also thank you for adding some German gear 💪🏻
I hope you will also make good experiences with the Ghosthood products ;)
It would be great if you could try washing the multicam garment with Atsko Sports Wash. It is claimed to wash out optical brighteners. And they also have a UV blocker that you spray on and let dry. It would be great to test that too.
Back to the roots. Thanks.
I am curious if permethrin or bug spray would affect it. Great video. Love when your videos drop.
No joke, there! Having put that on my spare clothes, this would be good to find out!
All Army-issued uniforms are treated with Permethrin from the factory so I would assume that it doesn't affect IRR capability.
@@Centermass762 good point. I assume it is the same stuff.
@@Centermass762 Why would you assume supply knows anything about tactical considerations and IRR compatibility? Sounds like a good way to get killed IMHO.
@@derekd1510 what the hell does supply have to do with anything? The Army has been using factory-treated, permethrin impregnated uniforms for 30 years. Have you ever looked at any new, unwashed issued uniform through NVGs since permethrin became mandatory (other than maternity ACU) in 2012? Did it reflect IR? There's your answer.
Good to see you posting, missed your content.
Thank you for all the info and content you provided👍💯 hope to see more!
GLOWING LIKE A FEDERAL AGENT IN AN ONLINE CHAT ROOM.....LMFAO......PERFECT
On the liners. Could it be a function of retaining warmth? The fabric used might be picked because it reflects "heat" to make it warmer. I'm ignorant on the subject.
Dang! That was interesting! WHO KNEW? I'm and Air Force type so there's that. Great video - thanks S2.
Glad to see you back. This is interesting subject. I have heard that many civilian hunting clothes are IRR. The reason for this is Deer and many other animals can see in that spectrum.
Anyway to be able to test things while in the store?
What do dead leaves on a forest ground look like, when viewed with current night vision devices? Unfortunately I have no access to such devices and have been wondering about that. As a hobby I make 3d camouflage ponchos and capes and dye my own cotton. It looks great to the naked eye but almost white in NIR. I had an acquaintance take a photo for me. However he rarely goes in the woods.
I highly recommend the ruck and helmet/boonie camo net covers made by Ope Gear Co. They were specifically designed because other contemporary options all performed very badly in the IR spectrum. Lots of color options available, top notch customer service, all products made in USA.
nice video, awesome to bring attention to this topic, however i think it would have been much better if you were able to have shown the IR parts while actually outside with a grass/ foliage background just so we can see how much more reflective it is compared to actual foliage. In this video with the metal work bench its kind of hard to gauge how much shine is coming from the fabric compared to just being close to the light source.
Starch will light it up, too. I was in the Army during the BDU days, and we were expected to have our uniform both crisply starched to look good, and also unstarched for IRR compatibility at the same time. Don't ask how, just do it....
Bring on the green weinie 🤓
did you control for IR/UV glowing soaps?
certain detergent makes clothes glow very brightly under nods because of the brighteners
edit: nvm lol
I’ve been hearing Hop trash the Aurora for so long I was absolutely gobsmacked how much better it works in this particular case
He trashes it bc of the latency, framerate and its low light performance. Works ok if theres a ton of ambient light, or in this case, a ton of ir illumination
17:00 thank you for the info. I buy cheap detergent and it has that same ingredient, as well as some other brighteners.
Do the brighteners eventually wash out over time?
Highly interesting!
This is great for sure. Thank you
Nice! Helping the cause without helping the cause “fight in the shade”
Nice video. Back in my time as a platoon commander I did a test with night vision on issued gear vs commercial gear. Arktis did great, but a lot of other stuff was bright white or blacked out under NVGs. However an issued chestrig turned out to be non IRR compliant, wich was a surprize.
One of the guys in one of the night vision swap Facebook groups did a full set of experiments with different detergents with different optical brighteners. The conclusion: optical brighteners do nothing under IR, but fluoresce in visible when illuminated with UV.
I think the multicam issue is more likely counterfeit fabric.
How would this change if you were wearing these items? Would the IR camera pick up your body heat through the fabric ( even if it is genuine IRR) ?
Is Gain still free of optical brighteners? When ACUs first came out we were all told to not use most detergents. But years later it seems the whole army forgot to care. And good luck knowing what they washed your stuff with in theater.
Something along the lines of : Detergent, Synthetic, Clothing/Equipment, Type 3A, 5 Gallons, 1 Each.
One would simply have to check the ingredients on the back label but I am going to make an educated guess and say most Gain detergent that you will find will have optical brightener and fabric softener in it. Most units I was with didn't care what you washed your uniform with because they inevitably give you new uniforms every time you deploy.
Excellent videos as usual. Looking forward to the next.
I appreciate y'all and everything you do
FINALLY a video , hope all is well my fellow friends
Always look forward to your tests. Yer doin a fine job👍
Very informative and well done, good explanations. Thanks.
I appreciate the test. I would also appreciate more testing on that multicam issue versus optical brighteners. I don't know if you did thorough enough testing looking at different criteria. Just because piece of fabric says official multicam on it all that is saying is that the pattern and colors are multicam. It doesn't say anything about the fabric that was used or if the dye is IR compliant. Take one of the items that performed well and wash it with optical brighteners and see if it makes a difference.
I've been researching this a ton ever since I started collecting IRR items to keep me concealed in my local environment (Northern Central US). With lots of IR NODs on the market today, and being standard issue for just about every ground troop in the US, it's a good idea to take IR absorption into account.
Damn this was a top notch vid! Never considered any of this stuff.
A good test and useful conclusions.
If you washed your clothing previously with optical brighteners, is there a way to get them off? Would several washes in water only work ?
I'm very glad you swerved away from the bottomless pit that is WW3 today and got back to the basics of Personal Equipment, so that when the Front opens up here, we can make better choices. Also, thanks for the 5th Gen program, which basically is Cold War Domestic Propaganda on Fluoxitine. I love the compilation of Every Single Media Commenter saying in identical cadance, "This is Dangerous for Our Democracy!"
Very interesting. What do you recommend to hide from FLIR?
High quality video
Other than Arktis, what other camouflage clothing gear do you recommend?
What NM range is the illuminator? Looks like 850nm ish. Can you try a 940nm? This demonstration has sent me to the workshop. thanks.
Great vid! Where’d you happen to grab the Flecktarn Swagman? I love Swagman rolls and would love a Flecktarn
Laundry detergents can make fabric glow in IR!!! Great to know!!
Great content as always!!
A detergent test to identify the best detergents for washing IRR compliant clothes would be awesome. Im also curious how much of an effect residue from previous washes would have. Like how many wash cycles itd take to get rid of optical brighteners from your washer drum.
One of the Facebook NV swap groups had a guy do a test. They didn't do anything under IR, but they did fluoresce under UV. With multispectral imaging growing, its still a serius issue.
This exactly answered my question.