I mean, I know I’m not a beauty queen and that my voice takes getting used to, so I can stand by that, right? Anyway, as long as people get something out of the content of my vids, I’m happy!! :-3
@@Nenilein I loved this video, so full of interesting content! And your voice honestly made it more enjoyable to me, even though I know it's a matter of personal opinions ^^ (haven't noticed any mustache btw, but maybe it's because i have one too despite being a girl, to some people it's crazy that we have hairs omg xD)
@@equinox8698 I guess you can say that Erebus is trying to buy the biggest and most powerful euthenizer for humanity from pharmacist Nyx but got blocked by Door Kun's door not allowing him entry
@ThIs iS uS: I did a seperate video on those ideas, but basically the series makes it very clear that Mementos, like the TV World, is just one of many, many realms existing within the Collective Unconcious, on a higher up layer than the "star space" that is usually called just the "Collective Unconscious". Mementos, the TV World, the Midnight Stage and Kadath Mandala are all realms created within the Collective Unconscious from smaller subsections of it, for example, the TV World is Inaba's cultural subconscious and Mementos is the part of Tokyo's cultural subconscious that's been corrupted by sloth. As for Yaldabaoth, I pretty much agree with you exactly. Again, I did a video on that~! Feel free to check it out on my channel. :-)
And I thought the worlds shadow was uhhh the love craftian elder god whose name I cannot pronounce for the life of me. So does that mean that humanity as a whole has more the one shadow?
@@thexslayer820 honestly.. probably, especially if you think of it as the world has different cultures. So you could say that the god/gods/dieties of each culture that represent essentially what Nyx represents, could be the world's shadow... Either that, or every final boss in the series is actually just another form of Nyarlathotep. So Nyx and Erebus are both forms of Nyarlathotep, and so is Izanami, and Yaldabaoth, and even Maruki's Persona from Persona 5 Royal. That entire idea honestly stems from the idea that every one of the gods from the Persona series, are fake itterations of the gods/goddesses that they are supposed to represent. Like for example, Izanami could be a not real Izanami, but Nyarlathotep impersonating her, in order to test humanity.
After watching this video and reading all the current comments, I'm starting to have this really dark thought. In P4, a majority of humans who wanted to live in a world of peaceful lies is what created Izanami and brought the fog. A world going on like that would lead to stagnation and Nyx would eventually be called to end it all. In P5, a majority of humans who wanted to live in a world where it's okay to stop thinking for yourself is what created Yaldabaoth and the Metaverse. Again, that world would stagnate and lead back to Nyx. Correct me if I'm wrong... but it seems to me that "The Fall" doesn't necessarily have to involve Tartarus and the 13 Shadows. As long humanity is subconsciously wishing for a world that leads to stagnation in some way, shape, or form, there's always a chance that Nyx will be revived, leading to the Earth's destruction. Basically, the P4 and P5 incidents can still be called "The Fall", even though they played out differently. With this info, I've put together something that serves as a brief summary of what leads to the end of the world. I call this the "Fall Formula". ("->" means "Leads to") Formula before P3: Stagnant world -> Humanity's cries for self destruction -> Nyx's Revival -> Doomsday As Ikutsuki said, people have filled the world, yet turned it into a void (a Stagnant World). Then quoting Takaya, they cry out for salvation, even though it lies in ruin (The cries of self destruction), which is why Nyx is being revived to destroy everything. So, a stagnant world was all that was needed to get the ball rolling. But after the P3 protagonist stops The Fall in his story, the formula changed. Formula after P3: Unchecked Dark Deity -> Stagnant world -> Humanity's cries for self destruction -> Nyx's Revival -> Doomsday Dark deities, created by humanity, started being born. If left unchecked, they'll create stagnant worlds that will eventually lead to Nyx's Revival and then Doomsday. This procedure has been set into motion TWO TIMES now (excluding the Arena saga), but the P4 and 5 heroes stopped it right at the very beginning by defeating the deity. So, here's the questions of the day: Has The Fall still been trying to happen? Did the procedure actually start up three times, but was eventually stopped with the P3 one being stopped at the near very end and the P4 and 5 ones being stopped and the very beginning? And finally... does this mean that the Great Seal isn't working as well as it should be? Just my thought. If there's an error in any part of what I've written down, feel free to speak up.
You got it, Pal. This is pretty much what the book says, too. In fact, the birth of the Death Shadow is usually a direct result of stagnation causing humanity to wish for death; Koetsu Kirijo just sped up the process with his experiments. In fact, in the book Ikutsuki says, humanity has been close to calling forth the fall many times in the past, during the great wars before. It just narrowly pulled itself back out every previous time. As for the Seal not working, it *is* working; if it wasn't, Erebus' mere existence would be enough to seal the deal. As it is, the P3Protag's overflowing love for life (combined with that of all his Social Links) acts as a barrier that keeps Nyx' body in the moon from being contacted by her spirit in the collective unconscious, hence why Erebus & Co are trying to tear that barrier away. The Seal's existence is interfering with the plan just fine - however, if the collective unconscious weakens to the point that the seal can't be sustained, P3Protag's sacrifice would be in vain.
To be able to seal Nyx's consciousness again, Makoto used The Universe, the most powerful Arcana, to draw on the power of the entire Collective Unconsciousness, the Sea of Souls itself. In that moment, Makoto's power is equal to that of both Philemon and Nyarlathotep combined, hence why he could even seal an entity as powerful as Nyx. However, as Nenillein says, if the Collective Unconsciousness weakens too much, then all it would take is for an entity to just break Makoto's seal and that would be the end of it. Of course, this brings about another point. For all the darkness of humanity that exists, we have no yet realized the light side of humanity. In fact, if an entity actually can be created that acts as the opposite of Erebus, then they can very well take Makoto's place and release him from the seal, and would ensure that Erebus never gets near Nyx ever again. This works with Nenilein's other video, in that these dark deities are likely shards of Nyarlathotep, and the attendants we see in Persona series after Persona 2 are in fact Philemon's shards. So this begs the question on whether one of these shards will ever become as such.
Ah, a review of the post that actually was how I first ran into one of your blogs in the first place. Good times. Acutally, with Life's self defense against Nyx being the Collective Unconsciousness before humanity even existed, the connection between all life, that makes the 'Bonds are the True Power' message in the Persona series all the more linked. It's not just a 'good feelings' thing, cutting you off from life and society in general is literally throwing away your innate defense against the self-destruction protocols in yourself. So, on that note, a question. Nyx influence over humanity sees to be balanced again's life's own tenacity, but how much control does she have over Dark Gods and Shadows? Yaldabaoth for example seemed to be somewhat lukewarm about extinguishing life, and seemed to consider Subjugating it and locking up all the shadows a good alternative. If they're all locked up in his fancy prison, they're not really gathering together to bring Nyx back, are they? Also, how does this mix with The Answer, which seemed to suggest that Nyx wasn't really all that eager to end all life, but it was Erebus, made out of humanity's thirst for its own death (which this video suggests IS Nyx) who drives her to action. Was that just 'characters coming to a wrong conclusion'?
All very good points and, yes, as much as I make fun of the silliness of this hidden plot point in this video, I do think it does make sense of a lot of things that happen in the series (even if I suspect this specific plot point was at least partially inspired by Neon Genesis Evangelion...) Okay, so, Nyx doesn't have any direct "control" over anything, as her mind is fragmented and split up over the entire world and all of humanity. The closest we ever come to see her will are the Snow Queen/Night Queen from P1 - who embodies the archetype of Nyx' will as a goddess, and the Nyx Avatar from P3. Nyx herself, however, doesn't really control anything. Deities are created from archetypes that exist within human minds and act entirely on them. Yaldabaoth is an Archetype of sloth, who, yes, would immediately not result in Nyx' revival, but a stagnant, rigid world of inflexible rules and order - HOWEVER, a world like that would be doomed to decline eventually, which would then lead back into Nyx' revival. It's a slower kind of self-destructiveness, but still self-destructive nonetheless. Yaldabaoth, as the Demiurge, represents our failing understanding of what "perfect order" should be like, our lazy refusal to grasp that "perfect order" doesn't exist, but only leads to stagnation, which leads to entropy, which eventually leads to death- That's how I read it at least. As for what Metis said in "The Answer", she's not wrong: Nyx is neither good or evil. She's just a part of nature- a part of *human* nature. So as long as humans live enjoyable lives and feel no need to desire death, Nyx does not feel a need to leave the planet either. However, once humanity goes off the rails enough to create something like Erebus or the Nyx Avatar to facilitate Nyx' reformation and rebirth... Well, that's when things get critical.
It makes sense, in Persona 4 it tried to fuse both worlds, turning mankind into shadows, while in P5 tried to control and manipulate us and the wild card. Basically acting like a mix of Adam and Jenova.
Though they say she isn't a goddess, she really is the true god of the Persona universe, in that life cannot exist without her. And those that ever claim that beings like Philemon and Nyarlathotep are stronger than Nyx, psh. Nyx is the entity that can truly kill those two, since she can kill all humans that hold Philemon and Nyar's existence together. Also, these lyrics are from Shadow's song from Shadow the Hedgehog: "I am... I am everyone, everywhere Anyhow, anyway, any will, any day" Nyx truly takes those words to heart in the Persona universe.
Aren't Philemon and Nyarlathotep what ultimately sealed Nyx though? I mean they are literally the embodiment of the "weapon" life on earth develop to fend off Nyx. Sure, Nyarlathotep might have been closer to being Nyx but together they are the collective unconscious itself right? Then again, it wasn't really something they were able to accomplish on their own, needing the P3 Protagonist to do it.
Exactly my point. It took the full power of both Philemon and Nyarlathotep to actually be able to seal Nyx, as each are actually just one half of the collective unconsciousness. However, the moment that Death was created, Nyx would have revived and surely would have killed the human race, Philemon, Nyarlathotep, Igor, etc. Makoto using the Universe allowed him to seal away Nyx as he had all the power of the Sea of Souls and was able to craft a brand new seal to seal Nyx in the deepest layer of the collective unconsciousness.
The point is that Nyx actually is neither malevolent or proactive, she only reacts to humanity's will. Nyarly and Philemon only manage to hold her in because humanity's wish for death is not yet great enough to reach her. The moment she senses their wish (in the form of Erebus) and starts moving, she is unstoppable. On another note, even with the power of the Universe Arcana, the protagonist from P3 won't (or from my understanding, can't afford to) eliminate either Erebus or Nyx, and will have to remain Nyx's personal bouncer for eternity, as: 1. Metis in P3FES mentioned that there wasn't a need for a seal before. But when we consider the fact that it took Nyx roughly 4 billion years to heal her main body in the Moon, and she happened to finish healing during P3 events, it's probably a case of bad timing. It might be true that there used to be no need for a seal, but it might as well be because Nyx was in no position to truly "merge" and cause the Fall yet. She is now, though, and Erebus is RIGHT THERE. Ick. 2. Eliminating Nyx would lead to the disappearance of her shadow fragments in the psyche of humanity, essentially causing them to become shadows and perish. This is NG ending no. 1. 3. Erebus is the demon created from humanity's wish for death and destruction. He is similar to Nyarly, but much, much less sophisticated and therefore can respawn really quick. And if we take Mitsuru's pondering (about death) that "People try to keep death at bay, but without it, they lose sight of life" into consideration, it's kinda implied that despite Aigis' hope for the change of humanity's heart, they will never stop wishing for death, however subtle the wish may be. The only way to erase Erebus for good would be to, erm, destroy its point of origin aka humanity. That way, other lifeforms would be saved, at the cost of our species... which is NG ending no. 2. So, imo, while given the power that Igor would describe as "never dreamed of seeing that card with his own eyes", the protagonist was also thrust into one of the most extreme Catch-22 situations. Tough luck for him/her.
"The only way to erase Erebus for good would be to, erm, destroy its point of origin aka humanity. That way, other lifeforms would be saved, at the cost of our species" On the contrary, Nyx is embedded in the collective unconscious and whether or not other species have the cognitive capacity to actively and knowingly wish for death (and keep in mind that the subject of other species having cognitive capacity is something that is frequently debated), they still kill and still put themselves into positions where they will be killed (it's worth noting that not a single species who is killed and/or mutilated upon mating ever evolved the survival instincts to prevent that from happening, same with species who eat their own young), meaning there's an unwitting desire for it.
Oh yes, thanks for reminding me of that! I admit I haven't give much thought on the possibility of non-sapient species having cognitive capability. Still, your example of certain species being killed/mutilated upon mating and predators can also be interpreted as an instance of "individuals shortening their own life so that their species/life in general would continue to exist" which still fits the theory of Nyx... to a certain degree.
So door-kun is the Reincarnation of Shinji, they are both emo and introverts, makes sense. He became a seal in order to prevent Jenova/Lilith/Nyx to cause the 3rd Impact, he's basically an human Longinus spear. Lol
I wonder if the deities are clueless in terms of.. this. Elizabeth calls Hi-no-kagutsuchi another aspect of humanity that wishes for death, yet Kagutsuchi himself never claims such things... . U . THEn aGAIN, AS MUCH AS I LOVE ULTIMAX AND A PETTY GOD THAT DISGUISED HIMSELF AS A BEAR- THE WRITING IN THE GAME WAS AWFUL.
YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN- But yeah, I generally get the feeling that the deities are under the impression they are absolute (especially Yaldabaoth) and don't realize they're just cogs in a much bigger machine, with the possible exception of Chronos.
I'm.. glad the Ultimax manga exists- to say the least. And I see- that's actually pretty amusing. Especially in Yaldabaoth's case, as you've mentioned...
General Teddie I mostly agree with you, having just gone through both the P4 and P3 story in Ultimax, which was pretty exhausting. However, I believe that one exception to this game's poor writing is Episode Adachi. It expanded Adachi's character while still keeping his core aspects, and while the same cannot be said for the main stories, this one was short and got to the point quickly. Also, there's an Ultimax manga?!
Yyyyyyup! There's an Ultimax manga. I'll be honest. Even with his poor writing, Kagutsuchi was by far my favourite Ultimax character. Since. I was willing to look past his writing and see the potential for his concept- and the fact I believe he wasn't supposed to be taken 100% seriously. He disguised himself as a bear, for goodness' sake.. But in the manga, he's written so well,,, It portrays that,,, He's somewhat intimidating- whilst genuinely comedic. It's great. Sho also gets a full backstory, and is written.. a lot better, too.
The reason Episode Adachi was written so much more coherently than the rest of the game is because it wasn't even originally supposed to be in the game. I kid you not, it was actually a fanfiction written by the scenario writer who was responsible for the Adachi Social Link in Persona 4 Golden. The rest of the staff found it and liked it so much, they decided to include it in the game. The game proper was written by an army of one dozen probably poorly coordinated writers, many of which had never written for Persona before, with a scenario head who was most likely absent for most of the process, as he was also writing on Persona 5 at the time. Since Atlus usually never fragments the writing process like that, I suspect this only happened because somebody (probably ArcSys?) pushed for a soon console-release of the game, before the PS3 becomes irrelevant. No wonder the game, which's basic scenario would *definitely* be possible to make a great story from, ended up failing so miserably in execution. Too many writers, no coordination and time-pressure will do that.
Tfw one of the most important parts of Persona 3 lore isn't even in the game..... -Damn you Atlus!- Anyway. Great video, i always wanted to know why Nyx was the moon during the end of the game.
@@Nenilein Hey, at least is in a somewhat sane source to put it. Unlike the Xeno series that had the idea to put important lore in a action figure box... I AM NOT JOKING!!!
This is some top notch work, kudos. That being said, I found the lore in question to be super dumb and will proceed to consign it to the pile of Persona lore that I just kinda pretend doesn't exist, like Kanji's epilogue design in P4G, parts of the Third Semester in P5R and the entirety of THE Answer.
Philemon is a representation of the benevolent side of the Collective Unconscious as a whole. Thus he has control over Personas as a whole and can give people the "push" they need to control theirs.
Is it weird that in this setting, I feel worse for Nyx than humanity? She didn't ask to be a part of humanity, but we're keeping her trapped here just by _living_. It's kind of sad and terrifying when you think about it too long.
I agree, it's kind of a terrifying concept. That said, I do believe that if humanity became truly "enlightened" as it was Philemon's goal, Nyx would probably enjoy this existence a lot more at well, thus averting the Fall forever.
@@Nenilein I do have another theory concerning Nyx and The Fall, one that's a bit less on the bleak side of things. What if when the MC used the Great Seal, he did so ultimately at Nyx's request? Remember, according to Metis, Nyx is neither good nor evil. So perhaps she also wants to give humanity a chance to prove themselves. Thus asked the MC to act as a barrier between herself and Erebus. Honestly, that one isn't as strong as the other one, as I haven't beaten P3 in a while. Still, I would love it if a Persona game did elaborate a bit more on this. Persona 6 maybe?
@@Nenilein I wonder if the bet between Philemon and Nyarlathotep are basically two different ways to achieve the same goal, just biased on their respective archetypes. The goal is permanently stopping Nyx(find a way to break a stalemate between Nyx and the CU). Phil's way is for the entirety of Humanity to eventually achieve enlightenment(to hopefully pacify Nyx and strengthen the CU so that any events like P3 never happens again or to begin with)and is formed because of Phil's archetype of being the collective positivity of humanity. Nyarly's way is to just end all humans and thus, remove the purpose of the collective Unconscious(Delete the CU yourself so the thing your trying to stop doesn't have anything to erase) and is fromed of his archetype being all negativity of humanity
As a matter of fact, the earth being destroyed by the impact would have happened if it wasnt for the fact that the earth was mostly liquid at this point
Persona 3 is my favorite perosna game and the best in the series but Jesus criste my boy makoto yuki that my boy the strongest persona user out here but Jesus that shit just gave me chills wtf bruh I knew nyx was broken but god dam yuki the goat. This blow my mind I didn’t even knew half of this !
Yeah, it *is* pretty Adam/Lilith-ish, isn't it? Given Ryoji shares a lot in common with Kaworu (including a voice actor) I'm sure that's not a coincidence.
Minato Risato That control is a form of human unwillingness to live their own lives and thus, self-destruction. Humans are too lazy/bitter/lacking in energy to fight for their own lives, so they wish for a black and white absolute rule that takes all responsibility away from them. That sort of thinking is very close to a desire for death, because living means to accept change and ambiguity. It furthers the fall, so it’s another manifestation of Nyx’ underlying will. If you look at the series from a Jungian perspective (which one really should) then you need to take complex connections like that into account.
I hate it when series hide lore behind untranslated books(Touhou does it worse as it has an even weaker plot filled with holes and all the horrible canon manga are very relevant) at least in the case of Persona it's completely irrelevant!
Thank you so much for this video. I did wonder how Persona 3, 4, and 5 all tie in together thematically and backstory-wise, besides being set in the same timeline, and your answer made it clearer for me. Besides the fact that Atlus is a Japanese company, I also wonder if the generally depressing state of Japanese society (*) actually makes the country susceptible to the Fall from Nyx... * Japan is around the 55th-59th out of 150 or so in the Happiness Index Rankings, which doesn't sound as bad - though it's one of the worst in First World nations, and even worse than a number of developing nations.
Yep, both of the men who've headed the series so far are extremely critical of the state of social wellfare and wellbeing in Japan and societal issues of the country in general, so it's no surprise a lot of society criticism makes its way into the games.
Yep, they're manifestations of the archetypes of human consciousness contained in the collective unconscious (I talk about that in more detail in another video.)
True, I've played with the idea that the SMT mainline Universe might be one where Nyx didn't exist, causing the world order to function differently, but honestly, with multiple universe theory, everything is possible. Just look at some recent applications in popular media.
@piluex2 The demons and gods in SMT are made in the same way they are in Persona. They're archetypes made by a collective of peoples thoughts and desires. The Expanse is also said to be like this which would make it and the Collective Unconsciousness one and the same. Think of the Great Will as the personified versions of all of the Collective Unconsciousness. A combination of Philemon and Nyarly if you will. The will of all of humanity. YHVH is usually the Great Wills avatar because the majority of people want the Abrahamic god to be the supreme deity. What the Great Will also does is create Messiah (protags) based on the wishes of those being oppressed by YHVH Also what is the substance used by Demons and Gods to take form in the real world? Magnetite, Magatsuhi, Aether, ect. They are all substances made out of the thoughts and emotions of humans. Bonus Aether is a child of Nyx and said to be a purer form of Magnetite There's a reason Persona came out of Megaten and that's because it fit perfectly into and expanded on the mainline lore This is all talked about in many games. Nocturne, SMT4, Strange Journey, Devil Survivor and probably a lot more I'm missing
You know, something I have come to understand that I wanna see what it would be like when I place it on Ask Persona tumblr. It being that the Fall is not actually bad, nor is it actually good. But its rather a method. Nyx brings about a truly peaceful and painless death to everyone. If the Earth was about to face an extinction level event, such as a massive solar flare that would wipe out all life on Earth, or a meteor that would destroy us, then wishing for the Fall is not bad at all. However, since life is meant to fight Death at every chance, if the chances of survival is not 0%, we should fight it. Perhaps one day we will reach a point where we can leave the planet or such. That's what life is about. To constantly struggle against death. But if survival truly is 0%, then it isn't bad to wish for the Fall, and Nyx will grant us a peaceful death.
Of course, we won't need to still accept death if they have achieved interplanetary travel and can move to new planets to live on. That's the purpose of life. To keep finding new ways to survive and push our limits to new heights.
Eh, apparently I didn't make myself very clear. When I said "nowhere to run to", I was implying the worst scenario where we have no other inhabitable planets to live on, nor do we have any space station to take refuge in. Oh well, if the universe was the one that explodes, we might have to invade Hamuko's timeline for survival? :D
Just found this video, would this mean that wildcards are are avatars of the great will, people with great souls that appear to make sure shit doesnt go to hell in a hay basket ?
@Akhron Heckle that makes alot of sense. Thanks!. All mc's do start off as somewhat empty shells with something negative happening that. Ren: Arrested for something he didnt do Yu: ???? If we take the anime. Unfillfilled in life. Big city. No one cared. Minato: Self explanatory. Parents died infront of them. Had the soul of death. Thus completely emptying themselves. But not entity giving up either
Soarel Not at all. Rewatch the scenes. Erebus was formed by the collective unconscious; Erebus being a demon hell bent on freeing Nyx and this ending life on Earth. Nyx’ nature itself remains unchanged.
Thanks for the correction! Despite playing it recently I don't remember The Answer very well due to most of it going in one ear and out the other (not a big fan of it in general)
Hey Neni, My name is Raheim and I have a question. At the end of persona 3 when Nyx arrives a man is seen laughing, turns into a shadow, and then dies right after. Now in Persona 4 the golden Marie states the fog itself that has been around for a while would've eventually changed everyone into shadows. Do you think there could be a correlation?
The book explains that; the man didn't "turn" into a Shadow, his Shadow left his body, giving him Apathy Syndrome (which is what Apathy Syndrome really is: The same as the mental shutdowns in P5. A human soul can't function without their Shadow, so if the Shadow is taken away or escapes, the human becomes an empty shell). What was happening in P4 would have been the exact opposite: All conscious minds and self-awareness of humans being destroyed, leaving only instinct-driven beings who are basically the same as just Shadows to run the show. Of course, that would eventually have led to the fall as well, as that's what Shadows do; call for the fall.
And the reason that the man's Shadow left him wasn't because Nyx was initiating the Fall right there, but rather because that man had released all forms of shackles of fighting death, as he completely embraced it, so there was absolutely nothing holding that Shadow back anymore.
I made a Channel Update Video the other day just to address those two questions, but basically I'm fine and I'm planning to get the Lover's Video out for Valentine's Day.
It is part of a joke, and also, there's several different ways to read the card, depending on what kind of deck you have. I wanna talk about that confusion in the video, hence why Valentine's is a fitting day to release it.
Now.......how can we ad this to the lore of Megami Tensei Multiverse? i heard the main villain in MT is YHVH and beings like Yaldabaoth, Izanami and Nyx are parts of him
I’ve seen people try to make it work, theorizing that “if” splits off the MegaTen universe specifically *because* of Nyx’ existence. Personally, I’d like to refrain. I don’t know enough about main line MegaTen to contribute to that discussion meaningfully.
YHVH would or better IS the same as being like Izanami and Yaldabaoth he's a deity created by the collective desire (let's call this the Great Will of humanity) for the Abrahamic god to be the supreme deity. YHVH would still be under beings like Nyx, Philemon and Nyarly It's explained in many games that demons and gods in SMT are no more then beings created by human thought and emotions. The ones I know for sure say this is SMT4, Nocturne and Devil Survivor (as well as all of Persona)
@Mr.Obtused Doesn't change the fact YHVH is a being created from the human collective just like those. Read the interviews for SMT4A they outright say YHVH was born out of the human "wish to be worshiped" created through the collective unconscious. Or play MT2 or SMT2 where he states as such when defeated. What I said is correct. Many beings can effect multiple timelines Philemon and Nyarly being included, and that's because mental/shadow energy warps reality, that's how the IS kids created a new timeline, that's also how Magnetite summons demons/deities into the real world. (since Magnetite is a form of mental energy) YVHV is so strong because he's worshiped by the 3 top religions in the world (Jews, Christians, Islam) and belief and worship give power to beings created from human thoughts/emotions, so he can effect other universes which also majority worship YHVH. Also Nyx in P1 is NOT the same being as in P3. P.3 "Nyx" is an alien that existed before the birth of the collective unconscious.
@Mr.Obtused No. Tatsuya not wanting to forget is what caused the paradox in the new timeline. Persona users have a stronger will over reality, the IS kids rewrote the timeline by erasing their memories. And Tatsuya not foregeting started to unravel the new timeline. In EP its said if all of the IS kids remember the timeline will go back to the original because the new timeline is tied to all of their memories not just Tatsuyas. And this is an example of mental energy effecting the timeline/real world, that's why I used it as an example.
@Mr.Obtused Yea that's because the collective unconscious keeps it that way. Demons/Deities were born there to keep Nyx's conscious trapped. Overtime life evolved to resist Nyx' psyche but at the same time evolved to have pieces of Nyx inside them (shadows) which created conscious, which then created the collective unconscious, where demons/deities are born. And if Nyx wasn't kept trapped all life would die because Nyx's psyche, Shadows, would need to return to it.
I think I'm just going to continue considering that part of P3 it's own cannon, more in line with P1 and P2, and in relation to P4 and P5, consider Nyx just one more god villain like the others.
I've mentioned this in another video, but the Nyx seen in Persona 1 is, according to the P3 club book, a deity representing humanity's awareness of Nyx' presence in the collective subconscious. A secondary avatar of hers, pretty much.
I never did translate the next pages, because I ended up being too time pressed. >_< I really should get to that one of these days. Most of what my translation is missing concerns the Velvet Room and Persona Users.
Sorry if you get this question a lot but about the world guide translation, i was only able to find 2 parts to the q&a translation that you have on your blog. Is there more content in the world guide and the translation was never finished? Is that all that there was in that section? Or am i stupid and wasnt able to find the rest haha?
Oof, if that isn't the 10. Million Yen question... honestly, I'd say "yes", since a lot of mechanics in the Persona Universe rely on her, but we really have no proof one way or the other. The Snow Queen in P1 is supposedly an Avatar of Nyx' presence in the collective unconscious, however.
Nenilein That always puzzled me cause if Nyx was created near the start of the Persona universe and is the embodiment of death I always questioned this (also that’d make sense because there is no other way the snow queen could fit in)
Given my experience with other fandoms, I personally don't consider books like that 'canon' so much as something that was said at some point that can be acknowledged or discarded at the individual fan's discretion without either interpretation being any more or less canon than the other. It's a sort of Death of the Author type of situation where anything not clarified in the source material is free to be interpreted in a variety of different ways, as sometimes additional information can be overly restrictive or just plain bad. There's the whole situation with JK Rowling's endless additions to the Harry Potter story fans are choosing to ignore and then there's how uncompromisingly strict Final Fantasy fans can get about the Ultmianias no matter how nonsensical or contradictory the information there can be. There's also the issue that in-character/in-universe writing is subject to unreliable narrator, which leave room to interpret it as a subjective, in-universe interpretation of something that may have other potential answers. Analyzing and making those things more accessible is still worthwhile and appreciated but sometimes bending over backwards to explain how one thing fits into another because it all has to be canon can be needlessly confining. The way I see it, the story about Nyx's origin isn't actually incompatible with her being an entity from the collective unconscious same as the other stuff you deal with. It could be that the collective unconscious makes all myths true with the ones associated with whatever entity is most prominent at the time taking precedence over others, retroactively altering reality to conform to it. A bit like P2's rumours. Whatever people believe in most at the time is what's true until something else displaces it, so P3's Nyx may only be the way she's described because people view death as an insurmountable, absolute presence from the dawn of humanity, so humanity would have to stop viewing death as insurmountable in order to truly overcome her, which is why she had to be sealed. Other deities that were killed can still come back if humanity believes in them enough to call them back, so people still have to make an effort not to feed into them enough to have to deal with them again. The only way to truly, permanently kill them would be for the entirety of humanity to stop believing in what they represent or to outright forget they ever existed. With that frame of mind, the origin of humanity, humanity's consciousness etc becomes mutable and allows for multiple stated origins or mutually exclusive myths to be true even in games in/branching from a single timeline. Any time one of the prominent deities lose power, another may take its place the way a new antagonist shows up every game to enact their own concept. It's a pretty simple and handy way of reconciling the variation of deities existing across timelines, the constant change in how demons/personas and the collective unconscious manifest in specific games and that time I'm pretty sure YHVH said he created humanity despite himself being created by humanity's belief. Both humanity and demons can create each other simultaneously in an endless loop and Nyx is a part of that too despite claims of predating humanity. I think the Nasuverse works a bit like that too when you spend enough time digging through the convoluted mess that is its world building. The conception in Nocturne may be worth examining in relation to all this too. The story Ikutsuki is telling in the book reminds me of that apocalyptic prophecy from P2 IS, especially since it's being presented by an in-universe character who could very well be wrong or passing along a belief people are making true in a similar way. Where did Ikutsuki even get that information anyway? Nyarlathotep? That would definitely explain a lot about why both are so nonsensical and yet 'true' in that people's belief in them made them real. In short, I disagree with having to treat Nyx as the objective, absolute origin of shadows and the collective unconscious, especially if you get SMT involved. That would rob the world building of a lot of flexibility in interpretation and potential origins, all of which may be simultaneously true rather than just Nyx's.
I do disagree with your take (since the information in this video comes from the series bible, rather than being ad-hoc additions as JK Rowling makes them, and I do think killing of the author is something that needs to be used pointedly), but I think it's an interesting alternate reading of the situation that definitely has its own merrits! Kudos!
@@Nenilein It's still optional material that exists outside of the original source, so it's really not that different besides the presentation and reception. Death of the author isn't just about disowning bad creator commentary but also allowing a variety of equally valid interpretations of the source material without having to treat author intent as the definitive interpretation of canon. Any fandom that has books or other sources like that tends to treat them like a fandom bible but the problem with that is that it tends to lead to valuing author intent and derivative material over the source material and individual interpretations of it. A lot of them take it too far and reject anything that isn't a quote from those sources even if it's analysis of the actual game. Those books tend to be made years after the original work and sequels/spinoffs/extended universes tend to be involved, so how much of it is true to the original author intent can be difficult to measure. FF7 has the compilation and its many contradictions and inconsistencies, the Nasuverse has its everything, KH is whatever it is, etc. They can have neat creator commentary and stuff but they can also have a bunch of convoluted and/or contradictory nonsense people really shouldn't feel obligated to bend over backwards to make sense of if they don't consider it canon. It's the source material itself that really matters. I find it's a pretty freeing way of approaching that kind of thing that can spare you a lot of frustration.
@@taiga738 Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're misinterpreting my use of (and in general) literature-scientific terms quite heavily there! Firstly, the term "killing the author" or "death of the author" does not refer to simply disregarding anything not part of the initial work as not part of its canon. Instead, the term means that the author's own interpretation of a work is just as valid and not valid as the interpretation and reading of any other reader and, as such, the work does not belong to the author alone. HOWEVER; that doesn't mean all material outside the immediate release needs to be regarded. Likewise, death of the author is only useful as a literature scientific approach, when you are trying to read/interpret a work in a way that removes it from the context of its creation. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I do in this video, therefore I did not employ Death of the Author in this video. This leads me to two other literature science terms: Close Reading and Wide Reading. Close Reading is what you are employing: A way of reading the initial work as a closed, in-itself complete work, that does not require any augmentation to be understood and must stand completely on its own. Close Reading is a very popular method in literature sciences, because it makes it easy to analyze a work without missing any details relevant to your analysis. Then there is Wide Reading, the method of intertextuality, with tries to take all possible related material into account and treats the entirety of it as a big whole that needs to be seen in the context of everything that came before and after. I personally prefer Wide Reading, since it allows for a lot more interpretative freedom and creativity, though it is also much harder to employ correctly. Close Reading and Wide Reading are equally valid methods. Neither one is more "correct" than the other. However, what I employed when making this video is a Wide Reading Method, so judging it by the standards of the Close Reading method is just not applicable, and that's the case for most of my videos. That's why I said that I disagree with you. Not because your Close Reading approach is "wrong", but because it simply isn't my own preferred approach. I hope you understand that.
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wish i could read this and not hear your horrible voice and look at your mustache
And you can: nenilein.tumblr.com/post/170313495692/the-origin-of-nyx-or-why-the-cause-for
Wow, nice taking the high road! Love your videos.
I mean, I know I’m not a beauty queen and that my voice takes getting used to, so I can stand by that, right? Anyway, as long as people get something out of the content of my vids, I’m happy!! :-3
What an asshole.
@@Nenilein I loved this video, so full of interesting content! And your voice honestly made it more enjoyable to me, even though I know it's a matter of personal opinions ^^ (haven't noticed any mustache btw, but maybe it's because i have one too despite being a girl, to some people it's crazy that we have hairs omg xD)
I unleash upon you the deadly sin of convoluted canon.
You have no means of escape humans.
The thirst for knowledge shall bring forth ruin.
So Nyx was just an angry planet in need of love
TheOmegaGreen XY
Nyx: Notice me SENPAI ! Plz !
Earth: Oh hell no !
Nyx is only doing what humanity wanted, the biggest euthanasia in the entire world
@@equinox8698 I guess you can say that Erebus is trying to buy the biggest and most powerful euthenizer for humanity from pharmacist Nyx but got blocked by Door Kun's door not allowing him entry
Man hashino must really like Evangelion
Probably.
So, in other words... Nyx is the World's shadow?
That is one way to put it, yes.
Wouldn't that be Erebus? Wait, then how does Momentos and Yaldabaoth fit into this? Hmm...
@ThIs iS uS: I did a seperate video on those ideas, but basically the series makes it very clear that Mementos, like the TV World, is just one of many, many realms existing within the Collective Unconcious, on a higher up layer than the "star space" that is usually called just the "Collective Unconscious". Mementos, the TV World, the Midnight Stage and Kadath Mandala are all realms created within the Collective Unconscious from smaller subsections of it, for example, the TV World is Inaba's cultural subconscious and Mementos is the part of Tokyo's cultural subconscious that's been corrupted by sloth.
As for Yaldabaoth, I pretty much agree with you exactly. Again, I did a video on that~! Feel free to check it out on my channel. :-)
And I thought the worlds shadow was uhhh the love craftian elder god whose name I cannot pronounce for the life of me. So does that mean that humanity as a whole has more the one shadow?
@@thexslayer820 honestly.. probably, especially if you think of it as the world has different cultures. So you could say that the god/gods/dieties of each culture that represent essentially what Nyx represents, could be the world's shadow...
Either that, or every final boss in the series is actually just another form of Nyarlathotep. So Nyx and Erebus are both forms of Nyarlathotep, and so is Izanami, and Yaldabaoth, and even Maruki's Persona from Persona 5 Royal.
That entire idea honestly stems from the idea that every one of the gods from the Persona series, are fake itterations of the gods/goddesses that they are supposed to represent.
Like for example, Izanami could be a not real Izanami, but Nyarlathotep impersonating her, in order to test humanity.
After watching this video and reading all the current comments, I'm starting to have this really dark thought.
In P4, a majority of humans who wanted to live in a world of peaceful lies is what created Izanami and brought the fog. A world going on like that would lead to stagnation and Nyx would eventually be called to end it all.
In P5, a majority of humans who wanted to live in a world where it's okay to stop thinking for yourself is what created Yaldabaoth and the Metaverse. Again, that world would stagnate and lead back to Nyx.
Correct me if I'm wrong... but it seems to me that "The Fall" doesn't necessarily have to involve Tartarus and the 13 Shadows. As long humanity is subconsciously wishing for a world that leads to stagnation in some way, shape, or form, there's always a chance that Nyx will be revived, leading to the Earth's destruction. Basically, the P4 and P5 incidents can still be called "The Fall", even though they played out differently.
With this info, I've put together something that serves as a brief summary of what leads to the end of the world. I call this the "Fall Formula".
("->" means "Leads to")
Formula before P3: Stagnant world -> Humanity's cries for self destruction -> Nyx's Revival -> Doomsday
As Ikutsuki said, people have filled the world, yet turned it into a void (a Stagnant World). Then quoting Takaya, they cry out for salvation, even though it lies in ruin (The cries of self destruction), which is why Nyx is being revived to destroy everything. So, a stagnant world was all that was needed to get the ball rolling.
But after the P3 protagonist stops The Fall in his story, the formula changed.
Formula after P3: Unchecked Dark Deity -> Stagnant world -> Humanity's cries for self destruction -> Nyx's Revival -> Doomsday
Dark deities, created by humanity, started being born. If left unchecked, they'll create stagnant worlds that will eventually lead to Nyx's Revival and then Doomsday. This procedure has been set into motion TWO TIMES now (excluding the Arena saga), but the P4 and 5 heroes stopped it right at the very beginning by defeating the deity.
So, here's the questions of the day: Has The Fall still been trying to happen? Did the procedure actually start up three times, but was eventually stopped with the P3 one being stopped at the near very end and the P4 and 5 ones being stopped and the very beginning? And finally... does this mean that the Great Seal isn't working as well as it should be?
Just my thought. If there's an error in any part of what I've written down, feel free to speak up.
You got it, Pal. This is pretty much what the book says, too. In fact, the birth of the Death Shadow is usually a direct result of stagnation causing humanity to wish for death; Koetsu Kirijo just sped up the process with his experiments. In fact, in the book Ikutsuki says, humanity has been close to calling forth the fall many times in the past, during the great wars before. It just narrowly pulled itself back out every previous time.
As for the Seal not working, it *is* working; if it wasn't, Erebus' mere existence would be enough to seal the deal. As it is, the P3Protag's overflowing love for life (combined with that of all his Social Links) acts as a barrier that keeps Nyx' body in the moon from being contacted by her spirit in the collective unconscious, hence why Erebus & Co are trying to tear that barrier away. The Seal's existence is interfering with the plan just fine - however, if the collective unconscious weakens to the point that the seal can't be sustained, P3Protag's sacrifice would be in vain.
To be able to seal Nyx's consciousness again, Makoto used The Universe, the most powerful Arcana, to draw on the power of the entire Collective Unconsciousness, the Sea of Souls itself. In that moment, Makoto's power is equal to that of both Philemon and Nyarlathotep combined, hence why he could even seal an entity as powerful as Nyx.
However, as Nenillein says, if the Collective Unconsciousness weakens too much, then all it would take is for an entity to just break Makoto's seal and that would be the end of it.
Of course, this brings about another point. For all the darkness of humanity that exists, we have no yet realized the light side of humanity. In fact, if an entity actually can be created that acts as the opposite of Erebus, then they can very well take Makoto's place and release him from the seal, and would ensure that Erebus never gets near Nyx ever again.
This works with Nenilein's other video, in that these dark deities are likely shards of Nyarlathotep, and the attendants we see in Persona series after Persona 2 are in fact Philemon's shards. So this begs the question on whether one of these shards will ever become as such.
@@0axis771 isnt that what Elizabeth has been doing? I thought she decided to spend her life protecting P3MC's legacy.
@@ventusthekey5187 She is seeking a way to free him, but there's nothing that indicates that she found such a method to do so.
quick question but, what could be defined as a stagnant world?
Ah, a review of the post that actually was how I first ran into one of your blogs in the first place. Good times.
Acutally, with Life's self defense against Nyx being the Collective Unconsciousness before humanity even existed, the connection between all life, that makes the 'Bonds are the True Power' message in the Persona series all the more linked. It's not just a 'good feelings' thing, cutting you off from life and society in general is literally throwing away your innate defense against the self-destruction protocols in yourself.
So, on that note, a question. Nyx influence over humanity sees to be balanced again's life's own tenacity, but how much control does she have over Dark Gods and Shadows? Yaldabaoth for example seemed to be somewhat lukewarm about extinguishing life, and seemed to consider Subjugating it and locking up all the shadows a good alternative. If they're all locked up in his fancy prison, they're not really gathering together to bring Nyx back, are they?
Also, how does this mix with The Answer, which seemed to suggest that Nyx wasn't really all that eager to end all life, but it was Erebus, made out of humanity's thirst for its own death (which this video suggests IS Nyx) who drives her to action. Was that just 'characters coming to a wrong conclusion'?
All very good points and, yes, as much as I make fun of the silliness of this hidden plot point in this video, I do think it does make sense of a lot of things that happen in the series (even if I suspect this specific plot point was at least partially inspired by Neon Genesis Evangelion...)
Okay, so, Nyx doesn't have any direct "control" over anything, as her mind is fragmented and split up over the entire world and all of humanity. The closest we ever come to see her will are the Snow Queen/Night Queen from P1 - who embodies the archetype of Nyx' will as a goddess, and the Nyx Avatar from P3. Nyx herself, however, doesn't really control anything. Deities are created from archetypes that exist within human minds and act entirely on them. Yaldabaoth is an Archetype of sloth, who, yes, would immediately not result in Nyx' revival, but a stagnant, rigid world of inflexible rules and order - HOWEVER, a world like that would be doomed to decline eventually, which would then lead back into Nyx' revival. It's a slower kind of self-destructiveness, but still self-destructive nonetheless. Yaldabaoth, as the Demiurge, represents our failing understanding of what "perfect order" should be like, our lazy refusal to grasp that "perfect order" doesn't exist, but only leads to stagnation, which leads to entropy, which eventually leads to death- That's how I read it at least.
As for what Metis said in "The Answer", she's not wrong: Nyx is neither good or evil. She's just a part of nature- a part of *human* nature. So as long as humans live enjoyable lives and feel no need to desire death, Nyx does not feel a need to leave the planet either. However, once humanity goes off the rails enough to create something like Erebus or the Nyx Avatar to facilitate Nyx' reformation and rebirth... Well, that's when things get critical.
Oh my God thank you so much for explaining these details in such a digestible manner and actually reading directly from the sources.
*OMG!!!* i just found out that another name for Theia, the name of the celestial body that hit the earth, is....
*ORPHEUS!!!!!!!*
I feel my brain expanding in my skull right now. I'm ✨euphoric✨
It makes sense, in Persona 4 it tried to fuse both worlds, turning mankind into shadows, while in P5 tried to control and manipulate us and the wild card. Basically acting like a mix of Adam and Jenova.
Tldw door kun is the strongest being in the persona universe
The Ultimate Cockblock.
Though they say she isn't a goddess, she really is the true god of the Persona universe, in that life cannot exist without her. And those that ever claim that beings like Philemon and Nyarlathotep are stronger than Nyx, psh. Nyx is the entity that can truly kill those two, since she can kill all humans that hold Philemon and Nyar's existence together.
Also, these lyrics are from Shadow's song from Shadow the Hedgehog:
"I am...
I am everyone, everywhere
Anyhow, anyway, any will, any day"
Nyx truly takes those words to heart in the Persona universe.
Aren't Philemon and Nyarlathotep what ultimately sealed Nyx though? I mean they are literally the embodiment of the "weapon" life on earth develop to fend off Nyx. Sure, Nyarlathotep might have been closer to being Nyx but together they are the collective unconscious itself right?
Then again, it wasn't really something they were able to accomplish on their own, needing the P3 Protagonist to do it.
Exactly my point. It took the full power of both Philemon and Nyarlathotep to actually be able to seal Nyx, as each are actually just one half of the collective unconsciousness. However, the moment that Death was created, Nyx would have revived and surely would have killed the human race, Philemon, Nyarlathotep, Igor, etc. Makoto using the Universe allowed him to seal away Nyx as he had all the power of the Sea of Souls and was able to craft a brand new seal to seal Nyx in the deepest layer of the collective unconsciousness.
The point is that Nyx actually is neither malevolent or proactive, she only reacts to humanity's will. Nyarly and Philemon only manage to hold her in because humanity's wish for death is not yet great enough to reach her. The moment she senses their wish (in the form of Erebus) and starts moving, she is unstoppable.
On another note, even with the power of the Universe Arcana, the protagonist from P3 won't (or from my understanding, can't afford to) eliminate either Erebus or Nyx, and will have to remain Nyx's personal bouncer for eternity, as:
1. Metis in P3FES mentioned that there wasn't a need for a seal before. But when we consider the fact that it took Nyx roughly 4 billion years to heal her main body in the Moon, and she happened to finish healing during P3 events, it's probably a case of bad timing. It might be true that there used to be no need for a seal, but it might as well be because Nyx was in no position to truly "merge" and cause the Fall yet. She is now, though, and Erebus is RIGHT THERE. Ick.
2. Eliminating Nyx would lead to the disappearance of her shadow fragments in the psyche of humanity, essentially causing them to become shadows and perish. This is NG ending no. 1.
3. Erebus is the demon created from humanity's wish for death and destruction. He is similar to Nyarly, but much, much less sophisticated and therefore can respawn really quick. And if we take Mitsuru's pondering (about death) that "People try to keep death at bay, but without it, they lose sight of life" into consideration, it's kinda implied that despite Aigis' hope for the change of humanity's heart, they will never stop wishing for death, however subtle the wish may be. The only way to erase Erebus for good would be to, erm, destroy its point of origin aka humanity. That way, other lifeforms would be saved, at the cost of our species... which is NG ending no. 2.
So, imo, while given the power that Igor would describe as "never dreamed of seeing that card with his own eyes", the protagonist was also thrust into one of the most extreme Catch-22 situations. Tough luck for him/her.
"The only way to erase Erebus for good would be to, erm, destroy its point of origin aka humanity. That way, other lifeforms would be saved, at the cost of our species" On the contrary, Nyx is embedded in the collective unconscious and whether or not other species have the cognitive capacity to actively and knowingly wish for death (and keep in mind that the subject of other species having cognitive capacity is something that is frequently debated), they still kill and still put themselves into positions where they will be killed (it's worth noting that not a single species who is killed and/or mutilated upon mating ever evolved the survival instincts to prevent that from happening, same with species who eat their own young), meaning there's an unwitting desire for it.
Oh yes, thanks for reminding me of that! I admit I haven't give much thought on the possibility of non-sapient species having cognitive capability. Still, your example of certain species being killed/mutilated upon mating and predators can also be interpreted as an instance of "individuals shortening their own life so that their species/life in general would continue to exist" which still fits the theory of Nyx... to a certain degree.
So door-kun is the Reincarnation of Shinji, they are both emo and introverts, makes sense. He became a seal in order to prevent Jenova/Lilith/Nyx to cause the 3rd Impact, he's basically an human Longinus spear. Lol
If they actually do a DLC for the answer in P3R I hope they go deep in this lore
A book with tons of lore written directly by the developers and explained concisely? Scott Cawthon take notes.
I wonder if the deities are clueless in terms of.. this. Elizabeth calls Hi-no-kagutsuchi another aspect of humanity that wishes for death, yet Kagutsuchi himself never claims such things...
. U . THEn aGAIN, AS MUCH AS I LOVE ULTIMAX AND A PETTY GOD THAT DISGUISED HIMSELF AS A BEAR- THE WRITING IN THE GAME WAS AWFUL.
YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN-
But yeah, I generally get the feeling that the deities are under the impression they are absolute (especially Yaldabaoth) and don't realize they're just cogs in a much bigger machine, with the possible exception of Chronos.
I'm.. glad the Ultimax manga exists- to say the least.
And I see- that's actually pretty amusing. Especially in Yaldabaoth's case, as you've mentioned...
General Teddie I mostly agree with you, having just gone through both the P4 and P3 story in Ultimax, which was pretty exhausting. However, I believe that one exception to this game's poor writing is Episode Adachi. It expanded Adachi's character while still keeping his core aspects, and while the same cannot be said for the main stories, this one was short and got to the point quickly.
Also, there's an Ultimax manga?!
Yyyyyyup! There's an Ultimax manga.
I'll be honest. Even with his poor writing, Kagutsuchi was by far my favourite Ultimax character. Since. I was willing to look past his writing and see the potential for his concept- and the fact I believe he wasn't supposed to be taken 100% seriously. He disguised himself as a bear, for goodness' sake..
But in the manga, he's written so well,,, It portrays that,,, He's somewhat intimidating- whilst genuinely comedic. It's great.
Sho also gets a full backstory, and is written.. a lot better, too.
The reason Episode Adachi was written so much more coherently than the rest of the game is because it wasn't even originally supposed to be in the game. I kid you not, it was actually a fanfiction written by the scenario writer who was responsible for the Adachi Social Link in Persona 4 Golden. The rest of the staff found it and liked it so much, they decided to include it in the game.
The game proper was written by an army of one dozen probably poorly coordinated writers, many of which had never written for Persona before, with a scenario head who was most likely absent for most of the process, as he was also writing on Persona 5 at the time. Since Atlus usually never fragments the writing process like that, I suspect this only happened because somebody (probably ArcSys?) pushed for a soon console-release of the game, before the PS3 becomes irrelevant. No wonder the game, which's basic scenario would *definitely* be possible to make a great story from, ended up failing so miserably in execution. Too many writers, no coordination and time-pressure will do that.
Tfw one of the most important parts of Persona 3 lore isn't even in the game..... -Damn you Atlus!-
Anyway. Great video, i always wanted to know why Nyx was the moon during the end of the game.
Yeah, it is pretty infuriating they just relegated that part to supplementary material, huh? Glad the video helped you though!
@@Nenilein Hey, at least is in a somewhat sane source to put it.
Unlike the Xeno series that had the idea to put important lore in a action figure box... I AM NOT JOKING!!!
This is some top notch work, kudos.
That being said, I found the lore in question to be super dumb and will proceed to consign it to the pile of Persona lore that I just kinda pretend doesn't exist, like Kanji's epilogue design in P4G, parts of the Third Semester in P5R and the entirety of THE Answer.
but wasnt it philemon who gave people personas
Philemon is a representation of the benevolent side of the Collective Unconscious as a whole. Thus he has control over Personas as a whole and can give people the "push" they need to control theirs.
Is it weird that in this setting, I feel worse for Nyx than humanity? She didn't ask to be a part of humanity, but we're keeping her trapped here just by _living_. It's kind of sad and terrifying when you think about it too long.
I agree, it's kind of a terrifying concept. That said, I do believe that if humanity became truly "enlightened" as it was Philemon's goal, Nyx would probably enjoy this existence a lot more at well, thus averting the Fall forever.
@@Nenilein I do have another theory concerning Nyx and The Fall, one that's a bit less on the bleak side of things. What if when the MC used the Great Seal, he did so ultimately at Nyx's request? Remember, according to Metis, Nyx is neither good nor evil. So perhaps she also wants to give humanity a chance to prove themselves. Thus asked the MC to act as a barrier between herself and Erebus.
Honestly, that one isn't as strong as the other one, as I haven't beaten P3 in a while. Still, I would love it if a Persona game did elaborate a bit more on this.
Persona 6 maybe?
@@Nenilein But yes, should humanity become enlightened, it wouldn't bee as much of an issue.
@@Nenilein I wonder if the bet between Philemon and Nyarlathotep are basically two different ways to achieve the same goal, just biased on their respective archetypes. The goal is permanently stopping Nyx(find a way to break a stalemate between Nyx and the CU). Phil's way is for the entirety of Humanity to eventually achieve enlightenment(to hopefully pacify Nyx and strengthen the CU so that any events like P3 never happens again or to begin with)and is formed because of Phil's archetype of being the collective positivity of humanity. Nyarly's way is to just end all humans and thus, remove the purpose of the collective Unconscious(Delete the CU yourself so the thing your trying to stop doesn't have anything to erase) and is fromed of his archetype being all negativity of humanity
As a matter of fact, the earth being destroyed by the impact would have happened if it wasnt for the fact that the earth was mostly liquid at this point
Persona 3 is my favorite perosna game and the best in the series but Jesus criste my boy makoto yuki that my boy the strongest persona user out here but Jesus that shit just gave me chills wtf bruh I knew nyx was broken but god dam yuki the goat. This blow my mind I didn’t even knew half of this !
I kinda feel like izanami and yaldaboath are also remnants of nyx in a way idk, like the same way erebus was affected by the masses too
A fitting giggle at the end there.
So essentially Neon Genesis Evangelion. Got it.
Yeah, it *is* pretty Adam/Lilith-ish, isn't it? Given Ryoji shares a lot in common with Kaworu (including a voice actor) I'm sure that's not a coincidence.
More Evangelion meets FF7 lore.
So nyx was an horrorterror that crash on a planet and decide "ho this must be fate, lets play civilization in this rock!"
Erebrus is ultimately her husband telling her to stop playing.
I came from Fither’s channel! Cool stuff!
I love this
Another great video👍 btw I love the detective Conan poster
"Desperate cries for freedom" meanwhile shows a clip of yaldabaoth, god of controlll
Minato Risato That control is a form of human unwillingness to live their own lives and thus, self-destruction. Humans are too lazy/bitter/lacking in energy to fight for their own lives, so they wish for a black and white absolute rule that takes all responsibility away from them. That sort of thinking is very close to a desire for death, because living means to accept change and ambiguity. It furthers the fall, so it’s another manifestation of Nyx’ underlying will. If you look at the series from a Jungian perspective (which one really should) then you need to take complex connections like that into account.
I hate it when series hide lore behind untranslated books(Touhou does it worse as it has an even weaker plot filled with holes and all the horrible canon manga are very relevant) at least in the case of Persona it's completely irrelevant!
Nyx being the persona version of mainline smts YHVH is kinda sick
Thank you so much for this video. I did wonder how Persona 3, 4, and 5 all tie in together thematically and backstory-wise, besides being set in the same timeline, and your answer made it clearer for me.
Besides the fact that Atlus is a Japanese company, I also wonder if the generally depressing state of Japanese society (*) actually makes the country susceptible to the Fall from Nyx...
* Japan is around the 55th-59th out of 150 or so in the Happiness Index Rankings, which doesn't sound as bad - though it's one of the worst in First World nations, and even worse than a number of developing nations.
Yep, both of the men who've headed the series so far are extremely critical of the state of social wellfare and wellbeing in Japan and societal issues of the country in general, so it's no surprise a lot of society criticism makes its way into the games.
So, gods and deitis in the persona universe are not real, but just created by human emotions?
Yep, they're manifestations of the archetypes of human consciousness contained in the collective unconscious (I talk about that in more detail in another video.)
Nenilein Hu, weird, I always thought deities were real in SMT, but I guess that's one of the reasons persona isn't really considered SMT anymore?
I'd say so. I mean, I am not an expert on mainline SMT, but there's definitely some strong differences in cosmology there.
True, I've played with the idea that the SMT mainline Universe might be one where Nyx didn't exist, causing the world order to function differently, but honestly, with multiple universe theory, everything is possible. Just look at some recent applications in popular media.
@piluex2
The demons and gods in SMT are made in the same way they are in Persona. They're archetypes made by a collective of peoples thoughts and desires. The Expanse is also said to be like this which would make it and the Collective Unconsciousness one and the same.
Think of the Great Will as the personified versions of all of the Collective Unconsciousness. A combination of Philemon and Nyarly if you will. The will of all of humanity. YHVH is usually the Great Wills avatar because the majority of people want the Abrahamic god to be the supreme deity. What the Great Will also does is create Messiah (protags) based on the wishes of those being oppressed by YHVH
Also what is the substance used by Demons and Gods to take form in the real world? Magnetite, Magatsuhi, Aether, ect. They are all substances made out of the thoughts and emotions of humans. Bonus Aether is a child of Nyx and said to be a purer form of Magnetite
There's a reason Persona came out of Megaten and that's because it fit perfectly into and expanded on the mainline lore
This is all talked about in many games. Nocturne, SMT4, Strange Journey, Devil Survivor and probably a lot more I'm missing
TL:DR Nyx is pretty much Lilith from Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Yeeeeeep, preeeeetty much.
Explains a lot about the JPN voice acting choices in P3, doesn't it? Especially for Ryoji.
And "get in the damn" robot Ken. The English voice actress for Rei Ayanami is Yukiko in Persona 4
So... Nyx is Hellstar Remina?
...Yes. Actually, yes. Exactly.
Easier if you think about it like this:
NYC is like nyarly but more egg shaped and less malevolent.
I love this girl underrated channel
We wouldn't be able to know if there was life before the Gaia impact, anything and everything would be erased in such an event.
Im pretty sure the book mentioned that there IS life. Just very very primitive and only gained sentience due to rapid evolution
I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS...FOR 8 MONTHS
Sounds more like Jenova.
You know, something I have come to understand that I wanna see what it would be like when I place it on Ask Persona tumblr. It being that the Fall is not actually bad, nor is it actually good. But its rather a method.
Nyx brings about a truly peaceful and painless death to everyone. If the Earth was about to face an extinction level event, such as a massive solar flare that would wipe out all life on Earth, or a meteor that would destroy us, then wishing for the Fall is not bad at all. However, since life is meant to fight Death at every chance, if the chances of survival is not 0%, we should fight it. Perhaps one day we will reach a point where we can leave the planet or such. That's what life is about. To constantly struggle against death.
But if survival truly is 0%, then it isn't bad to wish for the Fall, and Nyx will grant us a peaceful death.
Indeed. I think of a possible time when the Sun is well on the way of exploding and we have nowhere to run to, Nyx would be a true comfort.
Of course, we won't need to still accept death if they have achieved interplanetary travel and can move to new planets to live on. That's the purpose of life. To keep finding new ways to survive and push our limits to new heights.
Eh, apparently I didn't make myself very clear. When I said "nowhere to run to", I was implying the worst scenario where we have no other inhabitable planets to live on, nor do we have any space station to take refuge in.
Oh well, if the universe was the one that explodes, we might have to invade Hamuko's timeline for survival? :D
Oh no, I fully understand. If survival is truly 0%, I think that is the point you should accept Nyx. But if it isn't, you should fight.
Nice vid! Subbed
Thank you! I appreciate it!
I prefer smt lore but dang this make some of smt lore as a joke
Just found this video, would this mean that wildcards are are avatars of the great will, people with great souls that appear to make sure shit doesnt go to hell in a hay basket ?
@Akhron Heckle that makes alot of sense. Thanks!. All mc's do start off as somewhat empty shells with something negative happening that.
Ren: Arrested for something he didnt do
Yu: ???? If we take the anime. Unfillfilled in life. Big city. No one cared.
Minato: Self explanatory. Parents died infront of them. Had the soul of death.
Thus completely emptying themselves. But not entity giving up either
A planet, with a SOUL... has anyone watched guardians of the galaxy 2,cause i think I found a girlfriend for star Lords father.
She literally wants to kill everything
That creepy giggle at the end tho
Ff7 Jenova is similiar
Didn’t The Answer retcon this by saying Nyx was formed from the collective unconscious rather than creating it?
Soarel Not at all. Rewatch the scenes. Erebus was formed by the collective unconscious; Erebus being a demon hell bent on freeing Nyx and this ending life on Earth. Nyx’ nature itself remains unchanged.
Thanks for the correction! Despite playing it recently I don't remember The Answer very well due to most of it going in one ear and out the other (not a big fan of it in general)
Yes. You are back
How nyx know of the Veien room
aint no nyx comin cuz aint no space cuz aint no globe earth
Oh boy, thanks no, I don't need conspiracy theorists on my videos on video game lore, please go away.
@@Nenilein sorry i've been taking internet comment etiquette courses i think eric led me astray
@@Nenilein for real though, keep it up you have an amazing perspective on all this stuff
AIN’T NO PLANET X COMIN
Its sad that this is one of the rare lpersona lore videos i could find. Do you have anymore or knoe persona lore videos?
I am making more whenever I can, but my output is rather slow. You can find more on this channel though!
Hey Neni, My name is Raheim and I have a question. At the end of persona 3 when Nyx arrives a man is seen laughing, turns into a shadow, and then dies right after. Now in Persona 4 the golden Marie states the fog itself that has been around for a while would've eventually changed everyone into shadows. Do you think there could be a correlation?
The book explains that; the man didn't "turn" into a Shadow, his Shadow left his body, giving him Apathy Syndrome (which is what Apathy Syndrome really is: The same as the mental shutdowns in P5. A human soul can't function without their Shadow, so if the Shadow is taken away or escapes, the human becomes an empty shell).
What was happening in P4 would have been the exact opposite: All conscious minds and self-awareness of humans being destroyed, leaving only instinct-driven beings who are basically the same as just Shadows to run the show. Of course, that would eventually have led to the fall as well, as that's what Shadows do; call for the fall.
Nenilein oooh ok that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up!
And the reason that the man's Shadow left him wasn't because Nyx was initiating the Fall right there, but rather because that man had released all forms of shackles of fighting death, as he completely embraced it, so there was absolutely nothing holding that Shadow back anymore.
I love you
how is everything going? how is the Lovers Video?
I made a Channel Update Video the other day just to address those two questions, but basically I'm fine and I'm planning to get the Lover's Video out for Valentine's Day.
you know that the lovers arcana does not means "love" but "Choices" Right? or is it part of a Joke?
It is part of a joke, and also, there's several different ways to read the card, depending on what kind of deck you have. I wanna talk about that confusion in the video, hence why Valentine's is a fitting day to release it.
I see, I like the ideia, Go for it
and don't forget about Lisa
Now.......how can we ad this to the lore of Megami Tensei Multiverse? i heard the main villain in MT is YHVH and beings like Yaldabaoth, Izanami and Nyx are parts of him
I’ve seen people try to make it work, theorizing that “if” splits off the MegaTen universe specifically *because* of Nyx’ existence. Personally, I’d like to refrain. I don’t know enough about main line MegaTen to contribute to that discussion meaningfully.
YHVH would or better IS the same as being like Izanami and Yaldabaoth
he's a deity created by the collective desire (let's call this the Great Will of humanity) for the Abrahamic god to be the supreme deity. YHVH would still be under beings like Nyx, Philemon and Nyarly
It's explained in many games that demons and gods in SMT are no more then beings created by human thought and emotions. The ones I know for sure say this is SMT4, Nocturne and Devil Survivor (as well as all of Persona)
@Mr.Obtused Doesn't change the fact YHVH is a being created from the human collective just like those. Read the interviews for SMT4A they outright say YHVH was born out of the human "wish to be worshiped" created through the collective unconscious. Or play MT2 or SMT2 where he states as such when defeated.
What I said is correct. Many beings can effect multiple timelines Philemon and Nyarly being included, and that's because mental/shadow energy warps reality, that's how the IS kids created a new timeline, that's also how Magnetite summons demons/deities into the real world. (since Magnetite is a form of mental energy) YVHV is so strong because he's worshiped by the 3 top religions in the world (Jews, Christians, Islam) and belief and worship give power to beings created from human thoughts/emotions, so he can effect other universes which also majority worship YHVH.
Also Nyx in P1 is NOT the same being as in P3. P.3 "Nyx" is an alien that existed before the birth of the collective unconscious.
@Mr.Obtused No. Tatsuya not wanting to forget is what caused the paradox in the new timeline. Persona users have a stronger will over reality, the IS kids rewrote the timeline by erasing their memories. And Tatsuya not foregeting started to unravel the new timeline. In EP its said if all of the IS kids remember the timeline will go back to the original because the new timeline is tied to all of their memories not just Tatsuyas.
And this is an example of mental energy effecting the timeline/real world, that's why I used it as an example.
@Mr.Obtused Yea that's because the collective unconscious keeps it that way. Demons/Deities were born there to keep Nyx's conscious trapped.
Overtime life evolved to resist Nyx' psyche but at the same time evolved to have pieces of Nyx inside them (shadows) which created conscious, which then created the collective unconscious, where demons/deities are born.
And if Nyx wasn't kept trapped all life would die because Nyx's psyche, Shadows, would need to return to it.
I think I'm just going to continue considering that part of P3 it's own cannon, more in line with P1 and P2, and in relation to P4 and P5, consider Nyx just one more god villain like the others.
I mean, i think some interpretations that you made are a bit wrong but overall a cool explanation
Not that crazy I mean you know Jenova, life force, weapons FFVII
Wait but how does that work with Nyx in P1?
I've mentioned this in another video, but the Nyx seen in Persona 1 is, according to the P3 club book, a deity representing humanity's awareness of Nyx' presence in the collective subconscious. A secondary avatar of hers, pretty much.
@@Nenilein Oh I always thought that was her physical form
*-inhales-*
I still can't find part 3 of your translation
I never did translate the next pages, because I ended up being too time pressed. >_< I really should get to that one of these days. Most of what my translation is missing concerns the Velvet Room and Persona Users.
That sounds really interesting. I'll subscribe now on the off chance you translate it, and if not, you have nice content anyway.
That cool
Sorry if you get this question a lot but about the world guide translation, i was only able to find 2 parts to the q&a translation that you have on your blog. Is there more content in the world guide and the translation was never finished? Is that all that there was in that section? Or am i stupid and wasnt able to find the rest haha?
#Profound
Does Nyx exist in the original Universe
Oof, if that isn't the 10. Million Yen question... honestly, I'd say "yes", since a lot of mechanics in the Persona Universe rely on her, but we really have no proof one way or the other. The Snow Queen in P1 is supposedly an Avatar of Nyx' presence in the collective unconscious, however.
Nenilein That always puzzled me cause if Nyx was created near the start of the Persona universe and is the embodiment of death I always questioned this (also that’d make sense because there is no other way the snow queen could fit in)
Nyx can still return?
not unless erubus gets past door-kun
I don't mean to be mean or anything, but do you talk in owo?
Nope, I just have an Austrian accent.
Given my experience with other fandoms, I personally don't consider books like that 'canon' so much as something that was said at some point that can be acknowledged or discarded at the individual fan's discretion without either interpretation being any more or less canon than the other. It's a sort of Death of the Author type of situation where anything not clarified in the source material is free to be interpreted in a variety of different ways, as sometimes additional information can be overly restrictive or just plain bad. There's the whole situation with JK Rowling's endless additions to the Harry Potter story fans are choosing to ignore and then there's how uncompromisingly strict Final Fantasy fans can get about the Ultmianias no matter how nonsensical or contradictory the information there can be. There's also the issue that in-character/in-universe writing is subject to unreliable narrator, which leave room to interpret it as a subjective, in-universe interpretation of something that may have other potential answers. Analyzing and making those things more accessible is still worthwhile and appreciated but sometimes bending over backwards to explain how one thing fits into another because it all has to be canon can be needlessly confining.
The way I see it, the story about Nyx's origin isn't actually incompatible with her being an entity from the collective unconscious same as the other stuff you deal with. It could be that the collective unconscious makes all myths true with the ones associated with whatever entity is most prominent at the time taking precedence over others, retroactively altering reality to conform to it. A bit like P2's rumours. Whatever people believe in most at the time is what's true until something else displaces it, so P3's Nyx may only be the way she's described because people view death as an insurmountable, absolute presence from the dawn of humanity, so humanity would have to stop viewing death as insurmountable in order to truly overcome her, which is why she had to be sealed. Other deities that were killed can still come back if humanity believes in them enough to call them back, so people still have to make an effort not to feed into them enough to have to deal with them again. The only way to truly, permanently kill them would be for the entirety of humanity to stop believing in what they represent or to outright forget they ever existed.
With that frame of mind, the origin of humanity, humanity's consciousness etc becomes mutable and allows for multiple stated origins or mutually exclusive myths to be true even in games in/branching from a single timeline. Any time one of the prominent deities lose power, another may take its place the way a new antagonist shows up every game to enact their own concept. It's a pretty simple and handy way of reconciling the variation of deities existing across timelines, the constant change in how demons/personas and the collective unconscious manifest in specific games and that time I'm pretty sure YHVH said he created humanity despite himself being created by humanity's belief. Both humanity and demons can create each other simultaneously in an endless loop and Nyx is a part of that too despite claims of predating humanity. I think the Nasuverse works a bit like that too when you spend enough time digging through the convoluted mess that is its world building. The conception in Nocturne may be worth examining in relation to all this too.
The story Ikutsuki is telling in the book reminds me of that apocalyptic prophecy from P2 IS, especially since it's being presented by an in-universe character who could very well be wrong or passing along a belief people are making true in a similar way. Where did Ikutsuki even get that information anyway? Nyarlathotep? That would definitely explain a lot about why both are so nonsensical and yet 'true' in that people's belief in them made them real.
In short, I disagree with having to treat Nyx as the objective, absolute origin of shadows and the collective unconscious, especially if you get SMT involved. That would rob the world building of a lot of flexibility in interpretation and potential origins, all of which may be simultaneously true rather than just Nyx's.
I do disagree with your take (since the information in this video comes from the series bible, rather than being ad-hoc additions as JK Rowling makes them, and I do think killing of the author is something that needs to be used pointedly), but I think it's an interesting alternate reading of the situation that definitely has its own merrits! Kudos!
@@Nenilein It's still optional material that exists outside of the original source, so it's really not that different besides the presentation and reception. Death of the author isn't just about disowning bad creator commentary but also allowing a variety of equally valid interpretations of the source material without having to treat author intent as the definitive interpretation of canon.
Any fandom that has books or other sources like that tends to treat them like a fandom bible but the problem with that is that it tends to lead to valuing author intent and derivative material over the source material and individual interpretations of it. A lot of them take it too far and reject anything that isn't a quote from those sources even if it's analysis of the actual game. Those books tend to be made years after the original work and sequels/spinoffs/extended universes tend to be involved, so how much of it is true to the original author intent can be difficult to measure. FF7 has the compilation and its many contradictions and inconsistencies, the Nasuverse has its everything, KH is whatever it is, etc. They can have neat creator commentary and stuff but they can also have a bunch of convoluted and/or contradictory nonsense people really shouldn't feel obligated to bend over backwards to make sense of if they don't consider it canon. It's the source material itself that really matters. I find it's a pretty freeing way of approaching that kind of thing that can spare you a lot of frustration.
@@taiga738 Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're misinterpreting my use of (and in general) literature-scientific terms quite heavily there!
Firstly, the term "killing the author" or "death of the author" does not refer to simply disregarding anything not part of the initial work as not part of its canon. Instead, the term means that the author's own interpretation of a work is just as valid and not valid as the interpretation and reading of any other reader and, as such, the work does not belong to the author alone. HOWEVER; that doesn't mean all material outside the immediate release needs to be regarded. Likewise, death of the author is only useful as a literature scientific approach, when you are trying to read/interpret a work in a way that removes it from the context of its creation. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I do in this video, therefore I did not employ Death of the Author in this video.
This leads me to two other literature science terms: Close Reading and Wide Reading. Close Reading is what you are employing: A way of reading the initial work as a closed, in-itself complete work, that does not require any augmentation to be understood and must stand completely on its own. Close Reading is a very popular method in literature sciences, because it makes it easy to analyze a work without missing any details relevant to your analysis.
Then there is Wide Reading, the method of intertextuality, with tries to take all possible related material into account and treats the entirety of it as a big whole that needs to be seen in the context of everything that came before and after. I personally prefer Wide Reading, since it allows for a lot more interpretative freedom and creativity, though it is also much harder to employ correctly.
Close Reading and Wide Reading are equally valid methods. Neither one is more "correct" than the other. However, what I employed when making this video is a Wide Reading Method, so judging it by the standards of the Close Reading method is just not applicable, and that's the case for most of my videos. That's why I said that I disagree with you. Not because your Close Reading approach is "wrong", but because it simply isn't my own preferred approach. I hope you understand that.
First!!!!!
*gives you a cookie*
No in all serieness how are you doing Nani? Great video as always!
I'm fine, thanks for asking!
#Profound