I remember back in the 70’s when the power ratings and distortion were standardized but I did not know the FTC was behind it. One of the very few bureaucratic regulations that I approve of. Enjoy your break Be safe out there
Fully support you on working on your own stuff. Not trying to fix others failures and junk. There is no end to that job, and you are right, that is not your job. I follow this channel for your own builds and creations, in addition to your reviews, attitude and general take on things. Keep up the good work and let the junk(es) sail in their own seas..
Reminds me of when I was a kid in the 70’s going into department stores and seeing Lloyd and Electrophonic all in one stereos rated at 100 watts per channel.
For the last 10 years there has been the AD-1 Amp Dyno. Mostly used to test car audio as that is where it originated. It measures Certified= 1% distortion, to Clipping and Dynamic Burst= simulates music with a burst at 40hz or 1000hz. People still get confused because this is testing the amplifiers maximum potential, not what an amp puts out while playing music. The AD-1 amp dyno has set a new standard for testing.
Harman-Kardon lost a lot of sales during the power wars era because they wouldn't exaggerate their specs. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I know you need a break and I hope you have a good one. Once your batteries are recharged, please post a complaint letter on your website we can all download, fill in our name, and send to our politicians/FTC. You are right about people getting duped then ignorantly defending their purchase. Once the truth is revealed to them, they often become willfully ignorant - you can't fix stupid but even stupid people deserve a fighting chance at not getting screwed through false advertising. Thanks for all you do!
That's a great idea :) And yeah, it's human nature to defend a decision you make and to rationalize it. Many times the worst offenders as far as false advertising end up with the largest Fan boy base!
I remember when mainstream brands started citing "peak music power". We then got boom boxes and midi-systems advertised with "2000W PMPO" meaning it hits 2000 watts for a fraction of a second at huge distortion levels. Technically true but in real world use a lie.
Yeah, or many times like Skunky pointed out, they would advertise the power ratings based on an amplifier chip or some other device on the board that handles the most power. It's all a lie, and still going on...
It reminds me of those powered speakers that plugged into PC's. The power ratings on some of them was ludicrous. 80 watts per channel was a common one, when a look at the plug in power block would tell you it could not supply more than about 10 watts total. And the speakers themselves were often just 3 or 4 inches across and probably rated at about 3 watts.
@andyhowlett2231 yep those used the PMPO ratings, and we're rated so high because usually there was a transistor in there that could handle 80w, or 300w, or more, and so the companies stated the "potential" power output as "actual" output. This was one of the very few things I never bought into.
That's awesome! At least I'll know what I'm getting in an amp that I'm buying. To be honest I always knew that the rating in the Chi-fi amps wasn't what it said it was. Now there's no wondering what they really are now. Thanks Skunkie! Your the master!
Yes! This is certainly good news. Just think of how many people bought amps to match their speakers, only to find they make a terrible combination. Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end for all those BS ratings. There’s so many products out there held under strict guidelines. Why should HiFi be exempt and get a free pass? Enjoy your break and recharge those batteries. We’ll all be here when you get back. Thanks, Stephe!
Back in the early 90s car audio amps went through a similar phase. Some of the cheaper brands claiming huge power were all bullshit. In many cases you get what you pay for. It might look good and claim good ratings but if it's cheap be wary. Quality comes at a price.
Thanks for pointing out the points and bringing up the subject. I think you have researched the well the quality and you have the right to say your point of view, even if some other youtubers are having a hard time in swallowing the justified criticism. I don‘t mind cheapness, as long it is being sold to to me as an entry level device, so I can make a correct decision.
I was going to bring that up the Speaker impedence and sensitivity ratings as well, I have have a Denon 6700H for home theatre, Monitor Gold 300 and gold C350 centre speakers up front, 4 MA Bronze 100's as surrounds and rear surrounds. 6 bowers and Wilkins M-1's as height. and 2 SVS PB1000 subs. I knew the Denon could not power all that, so had to buy a few Emotiva amps, to power all the speakers and run the Denon, now as a processor. Im not a rich man, took a few years to build my modest system for my UK home. But im very happy with it, In fact it sounds amazing to my ears. But I was aware the Denon would never be able to power all those speakers too a reasonable level without external amps.
Love your channel ❤ Hoping you might consider making a small 2a3 amp with a passive volume control making about 2_ 3 watts per channel. Kind of similar to that Don Fi 2a3 amp from the early 2000s.
Will be interesting to see if the existance of a rule makes any difference to sellers lying about their products. Honestly I'd be happy if amplifiers with a metal chassis all had a ground connection. But then many of their mains leads don't even have a (working) ground pin on the plug 😅
I support you in your endeavors for the truth in advertising Hi Fi products. What happened to the original law and specifications that existed years ago! Whe. There was IHF and RMS ratings. I’d like to see ratings on distortion in loudspeakers.
This is really good to hear! I hope the feds really enforce this. Also what gets my goat is when amplifier manufacturers only advertise Watts Max! That's a useless figure. That should be abandoned also per FTC.....
It's about time they took action on this. I've been complaining about this forever with tube amps. Some manufacturers can only meet their power specifications at 10% THD. I do know that John Atkinson at Stereophile measures tube amps at 1% THD and consistently finds tube amps that aren't even close to their power out claims. The other problem are speaker manufacturers that are fudging numbers on their sensitivity claims. This nonsense has to stop! Manufacturers have to stop being deceptive!
This is positive news in attempting to reduce all the false advertising, but truthly I rarely trust what a manufacturer is telling me and I look to folks like you who actually test it, so thanks for that. I bought a Wilsenton R300 before I saw your video. I ended up with the revised Plus model that at least seems to correct some of the biggest problems you experienced based on your followup Plus review. The only functional issue I had with mine was noisy 6SN7 tubes after probably 100 hours or so. I replaced them with some Northern Electric 6SN7s and it has been nice and quiet ever since. Certainly I don't have the equipment to see if I have some of the weirdness you saw on your unit, but it sounds decent with my Klipsch RP-500M II speakers here in my office where I use it at least 8 hours a day. I got my unit about 7 months ago. Having said all of that, the trick is trying to find some sort of balance on cost vs. quality and let's be honest, tube amps are a bit more niche, so your available choices are kind of limited. If I saw your review before buying, it probably would have made me re-consider, but for the time being I'm not totally displeased with my purchase and I actually don't know of another tube amp I would choose if given the option to send it back... It seems you really like Decware, but they are a boutique builder with a 2x year backlog, so... Like I said, options seem kind of limited to me.
How about addressing the power ratings of HT receivers. Claiming, for example, 70 watts per channel. However, it can only do that with one channel driven. If you drove all five or seven channels simultaneously you’d get half that power out of each one channel. The power supply has the voltage to drive one channel to the rated output but, not the current to drive all channels to that rating. The supply voltage sags and you get a lot less than one channel.
Interesting and I agree with you totally. You know in the 50's audiences were assembled and told to listen to sound at various levels of distortion, the conclusion was that people couldn't detect distortion below 5%! fascinating.
So not being able to inflate specs adds to the cost? Oh yeah they would actually have to build an amp that met the published specs. You do understand this isn't a "certification" and only would be investigated if there is a complaint?
So how would it be enforced? If Chinese hifi is being shipped directly from China to consumer, how can Amazon or any seller enforce? It would require an inspection (at least one of every product) of every product listed. Or perhaps the seller must verify that each product is FTC approved. But that doesn't stop Chinese sellers from sending unregulated products. So, how do the FTC requirements get enforced?
Glad to see some kind of regulation on power ratings. I wonder if this will apply to pro PA amps. We have the same BS ratings to deal with in the live audio world.
I may be wrong, but for a while in the early eighties continuous (RMS) power full bandwidth with both channels driven was a thing for home audio. It seems what seemed to thwart this was first the car audio market as apparently it didn't need to adhere to the FTC rules for stated power. Then multi-channel receivers muddied the home market with often fake wattage numbers that might be more peak than continuous especially when all channels were driven. Soon a whole host of home audio products obviously felt no need to play by the FTC rules. I'd like it if every audio product was mandated to only claim wattage into what ever number of channels simultaneously driven the device is operating into at a standard 8-ohms. If that product, such as a subwoofer with built-in amplification, is a 4-ohm unit then that 4-ohm rating should also be stated, but not necessarily with no 8-ohm rating even if it will only operate into it's built-in 4-ohm driver. The 8-ohm is an important rating for adhering to the standard, period. I have little or no hope for car audio ever being realistic, but with that said it should also be rated continuously at a stated distortion over the bandwidth it operates within at the standard 8-ohms. That's the only way to reel in this wild west take on the truth of power ratings. If a product is found to not be rated truthfully it should be banned from the US market.
100% and IMHO there are a lot of single ended tube amps that will struggle with this ruling, mine included. But consumers have a right to understand everything that is going on.
Maybe it’s because so many people are only used to the sound of a phone playing through a Bluetooth speaker. To them a Chinese amp might sound good. They have no reference to compare to.
At the very least consumers should be informed enough to know that there is such a thing as an FTC rating and that if the product doesn’t have one, they might have second thoughts.
pretty interesting comments. Often wondered how long it would be before the FTC clamped down on some of the Chinese audio gear mfgrs. On tube amps, low freq. performance means big OPTs and big OPTs cost a lot more money than small OPTs. Does not matter if they are made in the US, China or elsewhere. The transformers are likely the most expensive component on these amps so also receive the most bean counter focus to cut their costs. On the extreme far end of the low freq spectrum you'll end up with VAC or VTL who's -3db point is down at 5 or 7 hrz. Not too many chinese tube amps can even come close to that as noted.
So many of them are less than 1/2 their advertised power at ANY THD at 1Khz. Much less at 1%THD at 20hz. Honestly, not sure there are any tube amps made than can make much power at 1%THD at 20hz.
Maybe someone can clarify, but it appears that this standard (or at least its April 2024 amendment) isn't making any requirement on the (flatness of) the frequency response. Rather, it's requiring that all frequencies throughout the claimed frequency response (or is it 20Hz-20kHz even if a lesser range is claimed?) can be output at the maximum claimed power rating and
As I read it, it's 20-20K into 8 ohms, period. Usually if there is a substantial roll off, turning up the input to offset at the frequency likely will either push it over 1% THD or the amp simply goes into clipping. Given the mid frequency power is likely also measured at the max THD/near clipping. It does have to be both channels driven as well. I know for tube amps, if we have to rate the power based on worst case, which is 20hz at under 1%THD, it's going to be a low number. I'm not sure any of the amps I have built make much, if any power at 20hz under 1% THD, even using very high quality iron! I'll have to read through this and see if the main power claim can be "This tube amplifier does not meet the FTC standard for power ratings"?
If we have learned anything from the current fiasco that is "right to repair" in the United States, it's that the FTC has zero teeth in the US market. Even when they do decide to fine some company, the fines are commonly zero (yes as in NO money) to a tiny fraction of the company's yearly profit (generally far less than 1%). Under these conditions companies know that they can ignore the FTC and consumer protection regulation with impunity.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics It is good to have standards, but it doesn't help if the Authorities are not enforcing them. Und don't cry out loud against Chinese Products, it is the American company who order them in China and sell them with their fantasy name on it. It is probably the same Manufacturer for all the different Brands,
Did you note I mentioned Amazon and other retailers? Of course it's not just the Chinese, but they are clearly a big offender in the under $2000 market.
Can i ask you a question, wattage aside. What do you think of the Fosi Audio V3 mono amp? Of course it states more wattage than it is (with the included power brick). Do you think it really makes a difference in sound to have mono block amps in a cheap amp like this?
Yep, the FTC rules are harsh for tube amps, but fair. But I would also be in favor of making an exception for tube guitar amps. They are very different beasts. Do not have to do 20 Hz and distortion has a whole different meaning. But I guess at the same time, guitar players are not staring blind on output power.
Boss Audio: 4x inflated power. Chinese no name? 3x easy. Car audio? 2-3x on avg less than MAXX PowA!!! u know what this reminds me of? Mr. Beeny from New Zealand. I miss him.
What is the correct stimulus for testing? Previously it was common to see swept sine tests but with the 5min requirement is a white noise stimulus more appropriate?
I get what you are saying , but there is already super high end audio that doesn't go anywhere near is rated specifications, some pieces cost six figures and they fall short, its nothing new.
Yeah good onya Stephe for firing up on these outrageous, deceptive, & frankly false claims made by crooked manufacturers. I mentioned this regarding one of those brick powered amps you reviewed recently. Sure enough, their actual output was about a tenth of what they were rated at. And that Nelson Pass (?) monoblock amp that other reviewers viewed as an award winning amp, that when reviewed by you, had some of the worst actual specs I'd ever seen. Same with the PMPO (peak music power output) ratings that appeared on asian made gear back in the 80's. Their actual RMS outputs were generally about a tenth of their PMPO ratings back then too, except nowdays, they don't seem to even suggest that this may be a PMPO rating. I'm sick of the lies too; I'm being lied to left right & centre, which has turned me into a cynic, which I don't enjoy at all. People looking at me sideways thinking I've got a problem, when I'm just after the truth. So it's good to see the FTC has finally made some changes here; it's only taken them 40 years! Glad to hear you're gettin back to dealing with your own gear & dealing with honest specs! - Specs that we can see with our own eyes with your test software.
Are these watts peak watts, or watts measured as the RMS values of the current and voltage values presented to a resistive load at the point of clipping (distortion % figure) of a sinusoidal test input waveform? IE the so called RMS watts? The watts need to be properly defined.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Good to hear. The reason that I mentioned "so called RMS watts" is that there are those who say there is no such thing. Watts are watts. IE: I x V. This is true of course. But adding "RMS" makes it absolutely clear that the rated output power is equivalent to DC measures of voltage and current giving the same wattage. IE: true output power. It also implies a reasonably pure sine wave input (and output) for the power test. The watts (voltages and currents) used in appliances connected to the AC electrical mains are always RMS , so why not audio amplifiers when connected to a sine wave input source of any frequency it is designed to deal with? I also think that audio amplification equipment intended for professional use should fall under these regulations too. Here in the UK we have the same old thing where they specify amplifier output power in watts and do not specify how those watts were measured. I hope your new regs catch on over here!
But Car, Trucks ect are falling apart two years after buying. One guy got an electrical car one year later a new battery was needed, factory will charge 17,000.00 for the battery then another expensive charge to have it put in. Government should keep their eyes on that rather than going after amp builders. I hope this is for factory builds not great techs like you Stephe.
Yes! This needs regulation. Poor suckers like me and others purchasing products and believing the bs specs only to find out they under perform. Does this mean you won’t be finalising the mp301 mods? I bought two to run mid and high compression drivers in an active set up. Didn’t sound great running shuggie -z kt88 full range with my passive crossovers in the speakers. No bass and thin sounding.
No, I'm doing those right now on the MP301. The circuit mod gave some very nice improvements, next will be testing several output transformers, then finally tube rolling for measured THD + subjective sound.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronicsoh thank god! Hopefully I’ll learn not to get sucked in to the hype on such products. The work you are doing is so valuable. Fair play to you Steph. I don’t blame you for getting frustrated with fixing these substandard products when you could be building better products based on good circuits. Appreciate you!
Just for fun, I look at the claimed RMS output on these class D amps, then look for a spec label on provided wall wart power supply. This tells me how much they are lying.
Heyo Stephe, love your channel! Regarding the debate about the MP301 in a German youtube channel I totally agree to your points and I hope that you don't come to the conclusion that all Germans are morons. When I see the comments on the German TH-cam channel, I feel embarrassed. Kind regards from Germany Burkhard
remember that bob carver crimson crap amp? officially 75WPC, bragged of 80-something WPC, had 15W edcor OPTs. when busted out, some were outraged, but not many of the folks who were conned by "bob carver."
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Burst power? When the power supply caps burst? Wow I remember the name Carver from decades ago! Lucky I couldn't afford them & built my own then!
I think the industry basically got "deregulated" and/or the FTC was told to sit on their hands? They haven't even looked at this industry in almost 20 years. I hope this is a sign they are going to try to do something.
I like regulations because without them, manufacturers don't care if a product meets specifications or is even safe to use. They only care about their shareholders and corporate profits.
Regulations are responsible for the quality of life we enjoy today. Don't worry though - some of our current politicians are hell bent on bringing us back to "The Jungle" days. Enjoy!
Never going to happen, the bean counters at companies will not cooperate, they'd rather gamble and generate cash. So what is needed is outside expert measurement for products sold in the US. Company pays for the testing, done by a government sanctioned tester. Without mandatory unbiased testing regulation is just bureaucratic hot air.
The way I see this working is a customer files a complaint of false advertising and then the unit is tested. They did this same thing in the 1970's and it made the manufacturers fly right.
WHAT? How the h*ll can anyone design an amplifier so badly that it only delivers 1.5 watts with a mains transformer that big and output transformers that look capable of 10 watts?
Audio fans will decide through listening to the music using the amp. FTC regulation to protect consumers is nice but not that essential. This is not medical instruments or equipment. One more thing that is important is the testing equipment, environment, testing personnel's qualification. Then, goes to the certification of the equipment, calibration of the equipment, the qualification of the calibration process. So, it could be complicated if you want to take legal actions. I would suggest that let the users to decide the final fate of the manufacturers. With today's internet feedback availability, consumers have the final say.
Sure... It's working so well with these influencers hyping bad products... Clearly you aren't in a business trying to compete with folks who are lying about their specifications, and yes people do buy off specs because you can't AB demo stuff anymore. I know some folks hate ALL regulations and believe industry can regulate themselves...
Folks who watch this channal or ther others who regularly perform the THD+N vs freq vs. power in Watts know anyway that the rated power cannot be trusted. If the products are tube powered, the consumers know their ballpark power rating from the power tube numbers anyway. For example, you can'y expect to get 20w/ch from purely single 300b power tube.
This is only part of the problem as you well know however, even more so with certain Credit Card and Pay apps (When returning this junk). Don't even get me started on the stupidity of this TH-cam Yard Ape problem...
Yeah but who buys this cheap stuff out of China with misleading specs? Not us audiophiles who study gear for months before separating our money from are wallets!
Because speaker manufacturers are constantly churning out low efficiency products, amp power becomes a thing. In the 70’s 25 watts was considered more than enough to drive 93-96 dB speakers. Today’s speakers of 88 dB efficiency would require amps to be making 100 watts in order to equal the loudness of a 25 watt amp driving, say a Pioneer CS-88A of 97 dB efficiency. And even so, the maximum SPL produced by modern speakers does not necessarily outdo old designs of pre-1970’s. My JBL 4320 proves the point. At 96dB efficiency & max input 70 watts, it makes partying with it a breeze. 111dB is its max output. Try that with a Harbeth M40.1. SPL 85 dB, at 200 watts pc, it will produce 111dB loudness but yr amp will be distorting heavily and not even have headroom to produce the finer dynamics of the input.
You can HEAR the distortion once you start playing it over 5-6W. And best case is 48W and the box says 300W. And where are the 20-20K response curves measured? The specs on the amp say it was measured at 5W not full power. I get people want to believe for $160 they get an amp that outperforms a $3000 one....
@@el_arte A 480W brick power supply yeah right! It would turn into a molten puddle! Incredible they'd have the nerve to even publish such specs. Maybe you stay with Amir's channel.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Amir measured THD+Noise below -75 dB at 48W into 8 ohm with the included power supply for the A07…and… THD+Noise below -100 dB at 77W into 8 ohm with the included power supply for the A70. Just reading off of the web pages. It’s obviously more with bigger power bricks and 4 ohm loads. Amir is not perfect, but if he got power output tests wrong, he would never hear the end of it. I love tubes, but that’s not bad power output for THD+N below -95 db (for the A70). Hard to find tube amps that can do that, in fact. That’s all. No magic hearing capabilities needed for me to read measurements off of a web page.
@@nevillegoddard4966 Of course those high numbers are BS. The power supplies are not even spec’ed to deliver that kind of power with both channels driven in a continuous manner. They must be some peak power numbers that can only be achieved for a fraction of a second once in a while. The practice of quoting such numbers as RMS numbers is fraudulent and should be banned rightfully. Note: SMPS can put out a ton of power out of small packages. Just witness modern gaming PCs that come with supplies that can output more than 750W.
None of that answers: what are the frequency response numbers at over 5W? Do you think the manufacturer would advertise the frequency response the way they do, stating it was measured at 5W, if it would do the same at full power? And was that 48W at 1K only? And did you miss where I said the test shows 48W and you come back arguing what I agreed was published by Amir? And I stand by my listening test, listening to music over about 6W the bass turns flappy and I hear clear distortion. That's the problem with "reading measurements", without context, they confuse many viewers. It's why the FTC standard is needed. Show me these same specs from 20-20K. Not saying any of my tube amps would crush that test, but I think many of these devices are designed to test well on known popular web sites test suites. Computer manufacturers have done the same thing, they crush the benchmarks, but in real use their performance is mediocre at best. And honestly, the ASR crowd, which only cares about Sinad and never discuss what something actually sounds like isn't what this channel is about. And as far as Amir being perfect, I tested the same Leaf Audio tube pre-amp he trashed and not only did it test well for me, it sounds very nice. There is more to audio than what he is presenting.
I remember back in the 70’s when the power ratings and distortion were standardized but I did not know the FTC was behind it.
One of the very few bureaucratic regulations that I approve of.
Enjoy your break
Be safe out there
Fully support you on working on your own stuff. Not trying to fix others failures and junk. There is no end to that job, and you are right, that is not your job. I follow this channel for your own builds and creations, in addition to your reviews, attitude and general take on things. Keep up the good work and let the junk(es) sail in their own seas..
Reminds me of when I was a kid in the 70’s going into department stores and seeing Lloyd and Electrophonic all in one stereos rated at 100 watts per channel.
Definitely file a complaint with the FTC. Government agencies are extremely responsive to individual complaints.
Yes in six months they'll tell you they received and reviewed your complaint and there will be no further action at this time.
Thanks for your "much needed observation" (rant).
Agreed 100%!
Now, we can only hope for the enforcement of those regulations.
Geez. This is sad. These products should be posted on a pinned post "wall of shame" for all audio enthusiasts to check.
or check things on audio science review. i would not buy things not reviewed on there!
imagine if the guy from project Veritas did Amplifier investigation stories!
For the last 10 years there has been the AD-1 Amp Dyno. Mostly used to test car audio as that is where it originated. It measures Certified= 1% distortion, to Clipping and Dynamic Burst= simulates music with a burst at 40hz or 1000hz. People still get confused because this is testing the amplifiers maximum potential, not what an amp puts out while playing music. The AD-1 amp dyno has set a new standard for testing.
Steph taking the junk dealers to the woodshed.
I love it!!! 😻
Harman-Kardon lost a lot of sales during the power wars era because they wouldn't exaggerate their specs. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I know you need a break and I hope you have a good one. Once your batteries are recharged, please post a complaint letter on your website we can all download, fill in our name, and send to our politicians/FTC. You are right about people getting duped then ignorantly defending their purchase. Once the truth is revealed to them, they often become willfully ignorant - you can't fix stupid but even stupid people deserve a fighting chance at not getting screwed through false advertising. Thanks for all you do!
That's a great idea :) And yeah, it's human nature to defend a decision you make and to rationalize it. Many times the worst offenders as far as false advertising end up with the largest Fan boy base!
I remember when mainstream brands started citing "peak music power". We then got boom boxes and midi-systems advertised with "2000W PMPO" meaning it hits 2000 watts for a fraction of a second at huge distortion levels. Technically true but in real world use a lie.
Yeah, or many times like Skunky pointed out, they would advertise the power ratings based on an amplifier chip or some other device on the board that handles the most power. It's all a lie, and still going on...
It reminds me of those powered speakers that plugged into PC's. The power ratings on some of them was ludicrous. 80 watts per channel was a common one, when a look at the plug in power block would tell you it could not supply more than about 10 watts total. And the speakers themselves were often just 3 or 4 inches across and probably rated at about 3 watts.
@andyhowlett2231 yep those used the PMPO ratings, and we're rated so high because usually there was a transistor in there that could handle 80w, or 300w, or more, and so the companies stated the "potential" power output as "actual" output. This was one of the very few things I never bought into.
I always look at the plate on the back. The power out cannot match or exceed what goes in.
That's awesome! At least I'll know what I'm getting in an amp that I'm buying. To be honest I always knew that the rating in the Chi-fi amps wasn't what it said it was. Now there's no wondering what they really are now. Thanks Skunkie! Your the master!
Yes! This is certainly good news. Just think of how many people bought amps to match their speakers, only to find they make a terrible combination. Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end for all those BS ratings. There’s so many products out there held under strict guidelines. Why should HiFi be exempt and get a free pass?
Enjoy your break and recharge those batteries. We’ll all be here when you get back. Thanks, Stephe!
Imagine if car manufacturers could just make up horse power ratings? Oh that's right they used to play with those before SAE regulations.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Ha! Totally….
Back in the early 90s car audio amps went through a similar phase. Some of the cheaper brands claiming huge power were all bullshit. In many cases you get what you pay for. It might look good and claim good ratings but if it's cheap be wary. Quality comes at a price.
Thanks for pointing out the points and bringing up the subject. I think you have researched the well the quality and you have the right to say your point of view, even if some other youtubers are having a hard time in swallowing the justified criticism. I don‘t mind cheapness, as long it is being sold to to me as an entry level device, so I can make a correct decision.
Now if we could just get a similar standard for loudspeaker manufacturers for speaker efficiency ratings and frequency response.
100%, at the very least for sensitivity/efficiency.
I was going to bring that up the Speaker impedence and sensitivity ratings as well, I have have a Denon 6700H for home theatre, Monitor Gold 300 and gold C350 centre speakers up front, 4 MA Bronze 100's as surrounds and rear surrounds. 6 bowers and Wilkins M-1's as height. and 2 SVS PB1000 subs. I knew the Denon could not power all that, so had to buy a few Emotiva amps, to power all the speakers and run the Denon, now as a processor. Im not a rich man, took a few years to build my modest system for my UK home. But im very happy with it, In fact it sounds amazing to my ears. But I was aware the Denon would never be able to power all those speakers too a reasonable level without external amps.
Stuff on Amazon is half the time not even UL listed.
Dang, I was gearing up for an anti-regulation rant. Wasn’t expecting to hear that the FTC did a good job.
Good on you Stephe. The truth always wins out over deception
Love your channel ❤ Hoping you might consider making a small 2a3 amp with a passive volume control making about 2_ 3 watts per channel. Kind of similar to that Don Fi 2a3 amp from the early 2000s.
Will be interesting to see if the existance of a rule makes any difference to sellers lying about their products.
Honestly I'd be happy if amplifiers with a metal chassis all had a ground connection. But then many of their mains leads don't even have a (working) ground pin on the plug 😅
Right, they don't even enforce basic safety stuff with them.
I support you in your endeavors for the truth in advertising Hi Fi products. What happened to the original law and specifications that existed years ago! Whe. There was IHF and RMS ratings. I’d like to see ratings on distortion in loudspeakers.
This is really good to hear! I hope the feds really enforce this.
Also what gets my goat is when amplifier manufacturers only advertise Watts Max! That's a useless figure. That should be abandoned also per FTC.....
It's about time they took action on this. I've been complaining about this forever with tube amps. Some manufacturers can only meet their power specifications at 10% THD. I do know that John Atkinson at Stereophile measures tube amps at 1% THD and consistently finds tube amps that aren't even close to their power out claims. The other problem are speaker manufacturers that are fudging numbers on their sensitivity claims. This nonsense has to stop! Manufacturers have to stop being deceptive!
This is positive news in attempting to reduce all the false advertising, but truthly I rarely trust what a manufacturer is telling me and I look to folks like you who actually test it, so thanks for that.
I bought a Wilsenton R300 before I saw your video. I ended up with the revised Plus model that at least seems to correct some of the biggest problems you experienced based on your followup Plus review. The only functional issue I had with mine was noisy 6SN7 tubes after probably 100 hours or so. I replaced them with some Northern Electric 6SN7s and it has been nice and quiet ever since. Certainly I don't have the equipment to see if I have some of the weirdness you saw on your unit, but it sounds decent with my Klipsch RP-500M II speakers here in my office where I use it at least 8 hours a day. I got my unit about 7 months ago.
Having said all of that, the trick is trying to find some sort of balance on cost vs. quality and let's be honest, tube amps are a bit more niche, so your available choices are kind of limited. If I saw your review before buying, it probably would have made me re-consider, but for the time being I'm not totally displeased with my purchase and I actually don't know of another tube amp I would choose if given the option to send it back... It seems you really like Decware, but they are a boutique builder with a 2x year backlog, so... Like I said, options seem kind of limited to me.
They are limited, especially at that price point.
Excellent report!
How about addressing the power ratings of HT receivers. Claiming, for example, 70 watts per channel. However, it can only do that with one channel driven. If you drove all five or seven channels simultaneously you’d get half that power out of each one channel. The power supply has the voltage to drive one channel to the rated output but, not the current to drive all channels to that rating. The supply voltage sags and you get a lot less than one channel.
Don’t forget the paid trolls 👿
Their all over the web
Like people (you) who use "their" for "they're."
@@johnsmith1474 thank you spelling troll, hear’s your cookie now run along
@@johnsmith1474 Have you nothing better to do besides posting ridiculous comments & wasting my time?
Interesting and I agree with you totally. You know in the 50's audiences were assembled and told to listen to sound at various levels of distortion, the conclusion was that people couldn't detect distortion below 5%! fascinating.
With a tube amp I could see it. With solid state, not as sure!
Tough to enforce. Would add too much cost. Amazon sellers are the grumps prob. None of us like it but...who knows. Love your work. Dont dissapear!
So not being able to inflate specs adds to the cost? Oh yeah they would actually have to build an amp that met the published specs. You do understand this isn't a "certification" and only would be investigated if there is a complaint?
So how would it be enforced? If Chinese hifi is being shipped directly from China to consumer, how can Amazon or any seller enforce? It would require an inspection (at least one of every product) of every product listed. Or perhaps the seller must verify that each product is FTC approved. But that doesn't stop Chinese sellers from sending unregulated products.
So, how do the FTC requirements get enforced?
Glad to see some kind of regulation on power ratings.
I wonder if this will apply to pro PA amps.
We have the same BS ratings to deal with in the live audio world.
I may be wrong, but for a while in the early eighties continuous (RMS) power full bandwidth with both channels driven was a thing for home audio. It seems what seemed to thwart this was first the car audio market as apparently it didn't need to adhere to the FTC rules for stated power. Then multi-channel receivers muddied the home market with often fake wattage numbers that might be more peak than continuous especially when all channels were driven. Soon a whole host of home audio products obviously felt no need to play by the FTC rules. I'd like it if every audio product was mandated to only claim wattage into what ever number of channels simultaneously driven the device is operating into at a standard 8-ohms. If that product, such as a subwoofer with built-in amplification, is a 4-ohm unit then that 4-ohm rating should also be stated, but not necessarily with no 8-ohm rating even if it will only operate into it's built-in 4-ohm driver. The 8-ohm is an important rating for adhering to the standard, period. I have little or no hope for car audio ever being realistic, but with that said it should also be rated continuously at a stated distortion over the bandwidth it operates within at the standard 8-ohms. That's the only way to reel in this wild west take on the truth of power ratings. If a product is found to not be rated truthfully it should be banned from the US market.
100% and IMHO there are a lot of single ended tube amps that will struggle with this ruling, mine included. But consumers have a right to understand everything that is going on.
Maybe it’s because so many people are only used to the sound of a phone playing through a Bluetooth speaker. To them a Chinese amp might sound good. They have no reference to compare to.
Ignorance is bliss!
lol just saw your video put up on aiyima channel
Your very right. Thank you.
Monday monologs are the best videos on youtube.
Thanks!!
At the very least consumers should be informed enough to know that there is such a thing as an FTC rating and that if the product doesn’t have one, they might have second thoughts.
My amp makes 0 watts into 8 ohms @ *3.7 % THD. Your absolutely Right. Gotta think. I like. RMS. ❤️
pretty interesting comments. Often wondered how long it would be before the FTC clamped down on some of the Chinese audio gear mfgrs. On tube amps, low freq. performance means big OPTs and big OPTs cost a lot more money than small OPTs. Does not matter if they are made in the US, China or elsewhere. The transformers are likely the most expensive component on these amps so also receive the most bean counter focus to cut their costs. On the extreme far end of the low freq spectrum you'll end up with VAC or VTL who's -3db point is down at 5 or 7 hrz. Not too many chinese tube amps can even come close to that as noted.
So many of them are less than 1/2 their advertised power at ANY THD at 1Khz. Much less at 1%THD at 20hz. Honestly, not sure there are any tube amps made than can make much power at 1%THD at 20hz.
They should also make builders produce a SNR of 110db.
Thank you right on thanks brilliant.
Maybe someone can clarify, but it appears that this standard (or at least its April 2024 amendment) isn't making any requirement on the (flatness of) the frequency response. Rather, it's requiring that all frequencies throughout the claimed frequency response (or is it 20Hz-20kHz even if a lesser range is claimed?) can be output at the maximum claimed power rating and
As I read it, it's 20-20K into 8 ohms, period. Usually if there is a substantial roll off, turning up the input to offset at the frequency likely will either push it over 1% THD or the amp simply goes into clipping. Given the mid frequency power is likely also measured at the max THD/near clipping. It does have to be both channels driven as well.
I know for tube amps, if we have to rate the power based on worst case, which is 20hz at under 1%THD, it's going to be a low number. I'm not sure any of the amps I have built make much, if any power at 20hz under 1% THD, even using very high quality iron! I'll have to read through this and see if the main power claim can be "This tube amplifier does not meet the FTC standard for power ratings"?
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Many thanks for the helpful and prompt reply - yes power-rating an amp based on 20Hz &
BUT how about power ratings for AVR equipment such as 5.1 or 7.2.4 etc?
Is anything addressing the multichannel equipment
I believe this does apply across the board.
If we have learned anything from the current fiasco that is "right to repair" in the United States, it's that the FTC has zero teeth in the US market. Even when they do decide to fine some company, the fines are commonly zero (yes as in NO money) to a tiny fraction of the company's yearly profit (generally far less than 1%). Under these conditions companies know that they can ignore the FTC and consumer protection regulation with impunity.
I'm afraid you are correct. They have no teeth and/or choose not to use them.
Glad the FTC revised the standards and really glad you did a Monday Monologue on it!
Thanks! I was gonna do a MM on this and THEN saw they just dropped new regs.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics It is good to have standards, but it doesn't help if the Authorities are not enforcing them. Und don't cry out loud against Chinese Products, it is the American company who order them in China and sell them with their fantasy name on it. It is probably the same Manufacturer for all the different Brands,
Did you note I mentioned Amazon and other retailers? Of course it's not just the Chinese, but they are clearly a big offender in the under $2000 market.
Went through this in the70's when I was a kid selling stereos. The FTC had only one job.......
Can i ask you a question, wattage aside. What do you think of the Fosi Audio V3 mono amp? Of course it states more wattage than it is (with the included power brick). Do you think it really makes a difference in sound to have mono block amps in a cheap amp like this?
No, I think it's more hype to sell you 2 of them.
Yep, the FTC rules are harsh for tube amps, but fair. But I would also be in favor of making an exception for tube guitar amps. They are very different beasts. Do not have to do 20 Hz and distortion has a whole different meaning. But I guess at the same time, guitar players are not staring blind on output power.
If anything most guitar amps seems honest about their power ratings, and I'm not sure this FTC ruling applies to them.
Boss Audio: 4x inflated power.
Chinese no name? 3x easy.
Car audio? 2-3x on avg less than MAXX PowA!!!
u know what this reminds me of?
Mr. Beeny from New Zealand.
I miss him.
Fully agree with you!
Output into 8 Ohms, 1% THD+N, 20-20kHz, 5 minutes. Lots of amplifier manufacturers are shaking in their boots!
Pretty much! Like that Carver tube amp where he claimed it made the rated power as a "burst of power with music"...
Love your rants
What is the correct stimulus for testing? Previously it was common to see swept sine tests but with the 5min requirement is a white noise stimulus more appropriate?
I believe this is based on sine waves.
I get what you are saying , but there is already super high end audio that doesn't go anywhere near is rated specifications, some pieces cost six figures and they fall short, its nothing new.
Speaker sensitivity is another area that needs more regulation.
100%
Yeah good onya Stephe for firing up on these outrageous, deceptive, & frankly false claims made by crooked manufacturers.
I mentioned this regarding one of those brick powered amps you reviewed recently. Sure enough, their actual output was about a tenth of what they were rated at.
And that Nelson Pass (?) monoblock amp that other reviewers viewed as an award winning amp, that when reviewed by you, had some of the worst actual specs I'd ever seen.
Same with the PMPO (peak music power output) ratings that appeared on asian made gear back in the 80's. Their actual RMS outputs were generally about a tenth of their PMPO ratings back then too, except nowdays, they don't seem to even suggest that this may be a PMPO rating.
I'm sick of the lies too; I'm being lied to left right & centre, which has turned me into a cynic, which I don't enjoy at all. People looking at me sideways thinking I've got a problem, when I'm just after the truth.
So it's good to see the FTC has finally made some changes here; it's only taken them 40 years!
Glad to hear you're gettin back to dealing with your own gear & dealing with honest specs! - Specs that we can see with our own eyes with your test software.
Are these watts peak watts, or watts measured as the RMS values of the current and voltage values presented to a resistive load at the point of clipping (distortion % figure) of a sinusoidal test input waveform? IE the so called RMS watts? The watts need to be properly defined.
absolutely is RMS watts.
They have to make power for 5 minutes. That's a good thing.
Too many of these are burst ratings with way undersized power supplies and use caps to give them this burst.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics
Good to hear. The reason that I mentioned "so called RMS watts" is that there are those who say there is no such thing. Watts are watts. IE: I x V. This is true of course. But adding "RMS" makes it absolutely clear that the rated output power is equivalent to DC measures of voltage and current giving the same wattage. IE: true output power. It also implies a reasonably pure sine wave input (and output) for the power test. The watts (voltages and currents) used in appliances connected to the AC electrical mains are always RMS , so why not audio amplifiers when connected to a sine wave input source of any frequency it is designed to deal with? I also think that audio amplification equipment intended for professional use should fall under these regulations too. Here in the UK we have the same old thing where they specify amplifier output power in watts and do not specify how those watts were measured. I hope your new regs catch on over here!
But Car, Trucks ect are falling apart two years after buying. One guy got an electrical car one year later a new battery was needed, factory will charge 17,000.00 for the battery then another expensive charge to have it put in. Government should keep their eyes on that rather than going after amp builders. I hope this is for factory builds not great techs like you Stephe.
Yes! This needs regulation. Poor suckers like me and others purchasing products and believing the bs specs only to find out they under perform.
Does this mean you won’t be finalising the mp301 mods?
I bought two to run mid and high compression drivers in an active set up. Didn’t sound great running shuggie -z kt88 full range with my passive crossovers in the speakers. No bass and thin sounding.
No, I'm doing those right now on the MP301. The circuit mod gave some very nice improvements, next will be testing several output transformers, then finally tube rolling for measured THD + subjective sound.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronicsoh thank god!
Hopefully I’ll learn not to get sucked in to the hype on such products.
The work you are doing is so valuable. Fair play to you Steph. I don’t blame you for getting frustrated with fixing these substandard products when you could be building better products based on good circuits.
Appreciate you!
If they are getting severe distortion at 1 watt, that tells me that they are running the preamp tube WAY too hot.
How about way too cold and are running it as a pentode feeding a pentode.
Just for fun, I look at the claimed RMS output on these class D amps, then look for a spec label on provided wall wart power supply. This tells me how much they are lying.
Yup
Heyo Stephe, love your channel! Regarding the debate about the MP301 in a German youtube channel I totally agree to your points and I hope that you don't come to the conclusion that all Germans are morons. When I see the comments on the German TH-cam channel, I feel embarrassed.
Kind regards from Germany
Burkhard
remember that bob carver crimson crap amp? officially 75WPC, bragged of 80-something WPC, had 15W edcor OPTs. when busted out, some were outraged, but not many of the folks who were conned by "bob carver."
Yup, he was claiming this was "burst power".
for real, @@SkunkieDesignsElectronics ? what a jive ass con man.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Burst power? When the power supply caps burst? Wow I remember the name Carver from decades ago! Lucky I couldn't afford them & built my own then!
i thought that’s was pretty much a regulation other than the (rms?) 5 min aspect?
I think the industry basically got "deregulated" and/or the FTC was told to sit on their hands? They haven't even looked at this industry in almost 20 years. I hope this is a sign they are going to try to do something.
Great video. We have a mutual friend in the state senate. Call Jason and see if he can help.
I hate regulations. Unfortunately manufacturers in all areas are more than willing to decive the buyer.
So here we are.
I like regulations because without them, manufacturers don't care if a product meets specifications or is even safe to use. They only care about their shareholders and corporate profits.
Your hates are very likely completely immature.
@@johnsmith1474 Please explain this assertion, which has no foundation.
Regulations are responsible for the quality of life we enjoy today. Don't worry though - some of our current politicians are hell bent on bringing us back to "The Jungle" days. Enjoy!
then ya gotta luv regulations. easier to trust that than the willy nil
Folks, Skunkie Designs is correct, stop buying Chinese junk, get real amps with real world ratings.
Never going to happen, the bean counters at companies will not cooperate, they'd rather gamble and generate cash. So what is needed is outside expert measurement for products sold in the US. Company pays for the testing, done by a government sanctioned tester. Without mandatory unbiased testing regulation is just bureaucratic hot air.
The way I see this working is a customer files a complaint of false advertising and then the unit is tested. They did this same thing in the 1970's and it made the manufacturers fly right.
With tubes we know the posible watage , ther is no 120w fender or 60 its the same as the bassmann 40w cause the tubes go to saturatjon and thats it.
WHAT? How the h*ll can anyone design an amplifier so badly that it only delivers 1.5 watts with a mains transformer that big and output transformers that look capable of 10 watts?
Audio fans will decide through listening to the music using the amp. FTC regulation to protect consumers is nice but not that essential. This is not medical instruments or equipment. One more thing that is important is the testing equipment, environment, testing personnel's qualification. Then, goes to the certification of the equipment, calibration of the equipment, the qualification of the calibration process. So, it could be complicated if you want to take legal actions. I would suggest that let the users to decide the final fate of the manufacturers. With today's internet feedback availability, consumers have the final say.
Sure... It's working so well with these influencers hyping bad products... Clearly you aren't in a business trying to compete with folks who are lying about their specifications, and yes people do buy off specs because you can't AB demo stuff anymore. I know some folks hate ALL regulations and believe industry can regulate themselves...
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Yeah they regulate themseves alright! They lie as much as they can get away with!
@@nevillegoddard4966 the issue is what you are going to deal with it
the issue is what are you going to deal with it. Not an easy task if you are not really in this business.
Folks who watch this channal or ther others who regularly perform the THD+N vs freq vs. power in Watts know anyway that the rated power cannot be trusted. If the products are tube powered, the consumers know their ballpark power rating from the power tube numbers anyway. For example, you can'y expect to get 20w/ch from purely single 300b power tube.
You may be able to form a class against U.S. resellers of the product, but good luck suing anyone who is in China.
This is only part of the problem as you well know however, even more so with certain Credit Card and Pay apps (When returning this junk). Don't even get me started on the stupidity of this TH-cam Yard Ape problem...
Yeah but who buys this cheap stuff out of China with misleading specs? Not us audiophiles who study gear for months before separating our money from are wallets!
Clearly a lot of people do lol.
Because speaker manufacturers are constantly churning out low efficiency products, amp power becomes a thing.
In the 70’s 25 watts was considered more than enough to drive 93-96 dB speakers.
Today’s speakers of 88 dB efficiency would require amps to be making 100 watts in order to equal the loudness of a 25 watt amp driving, say a Pioneer CS-88A of 97 dB efficiency. And even so, the maximum SPL produced by modern speakers does not necessarily outdo old designs of pre-1970’s.
My JBL 4320 proves the point. At 96dB efficiency & max input 70 watts, it makes partying with it a breeze. 111dB is its max output.
Try that with a Harbeth M40.1. SPL 85 dB, at 200 watts pc, it will produce 111dB loudness but yr amp will be distorting heavily and not even have headroom to produce the finer dynamics of the input.
You didn’t measure the A70’s power output, nor the A07’s. Amir did and I am pretty sure he has the equipment to do it right.
You can HEAR the distortion once you start playing it over 5-6W. And best case is 48W and the box says 300W. And where are the 20-20K response curves measured? The specs on the amp say it was measured at 5W not full power. I get people want to believe for $160 they get an amp that outperforms a $3000 one....
@@el_arte A 480W brick power supply yeah right! It would turn into a molten puddle! Incredible they'd have the nerve to even publish such specs. Maybe you stay with Amir's channel.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Amir measured THD+Noise below -75 dB at 48W into 8 ohm with the included power supply for the A07…and… THD+Noise below -100 dB at 77W into 8 ohm with the included power supply for the A70. Just reading off of the web pages. It’s obviously more with bigger power bricks and 4 ohm loads.
Amir is not perfect, but if he got power output tests wrong, he would never hear the end of it.
I love tubes, but that’s not bad power output for THD+N below -95 db (for the A70). Hard to find tube amps that can do that, in fact.
That’s all. No magic hearing capabilities needed for me to read measurements off of a web page.
@@nevillegoddard4966 Of course those high numbers are BS. The power supplies are not even spec’ed to deliver that kind of power with both channels driven in a continuous manner. They must be some peak power numbers that can only be achieved for a fraction of a second once in a while. The practice of quoting such numbers as RMS numbers is fraudulent and should be banned rightfully.
Note: SMPS can put out a ton of power out of small packages. Just witness modern gaming PCs that come with supplies that can output more than 750W.
None of that answers: what are the frequency response numbers at over 5W? Do you think the manufacturer would advertise the frequency response the way they do, stating it was measured at 5W, if it would do the same at full power? And was that 48W at 1K only? And did you miss where I said the test shows 48W and you come back arguing what I agreed was published by Amir? And I stand by my listening test, listening to music over about 6W the bass turns flappy and I hear clear distortion.
That's the problem with "reading measurements", without context, they confuse many viewers. It's why the FTC standard is needed. Show me these same specs from 20-20K. Not saying any of my tube amps would crush that test, but I think many of these devices are designed to test well on known popular web sites test suites. Computer manufacturers have done the same thing, they crush the benchmarks, but in real use their performance is mediocre at best.
And honestly, the ASR crowd, which only cares about Sinad and never discuss what something actually sounds like isn't what this channel is about. And as far as Amir being perfect, I tested the same Leaf Audio tube pre-amp he trashed and not only did it test well for me, it sounds very nice. There is more to audio than what he is presenting.
👍♥️🫂